What are you current views on the "Immigration crisis"??

[lewis111]

Do you have a strong opinion on probably the worlds biggest issue right now.
I just don't know if I'm educated enough in the topic to be giving out opinions but I have quite a switching mind set on the situation.
Any views or points????

[Livia]

My view is that we, the UK, have already thrown a billion pounds at this and we've agreed to take some refugees from UN camps but not people who enter the country illegally and I think that's the right thing to do. I think it's time the rest of the world stepped up and recognised this is a global problem and the influx of migrants shouldn't be born by Europe alone.

[rubymoo]

My view is that there's a whole planet that we all live on, that has enough space for everyone, all it needs is for everyone to open their doors and do their bit.

With the current crisis i feel the UK is right to take in Syrian refugees from the UN camps, they can be processed quickly and start a new life.

It's really sad that it took a 3 year old boy to be washed up on a Turkish beach for the world to start to take notice, this is a crisis that needs to be resolved asap.

[smudgie]

My view, or one of them, is to train all those young strong lads to fight for their country, don't they have an army?
Stop allowing people freedom to move across the borders until they are registered and processed.
Process them at the first safe country they arrive at, then send economic migrants back and help genuine refugees to settle into a new country.
Any migrants jumping on lorries, trains etc should be deported immediately and told they face a lifetime ban from Britain if they do it again.

[jennyjuniper]

I think the other arab nations should be responsible for taking a large amount of refugees. It makes sense as they are muslim countries and being not so far away it will make it easier for these displaced people to return home again once isis is wiped from the face of the earth.
Another solution would be for troops from Europe/arab countries to go in and eliminate isis and make Syria safe for Syrians to return home.

[rubymoo]

I agree that economic migrants should be sent back (at this moment in time) as they aren't fleeing danger or persecution, but then i do wonder what right anyone has to tell someone that they can't move to better themselves, i know that if i'd got a bum deal with a crap country i would like the opportunity to make my life and my future family's life a happy and prosperous one, i wonder who was first to say...no you can't live here.....

We should be allowed to move around the globe and settle freely where ever we want, what's complicated matters is the threat of terrorism, and now a lot of people are afraid of muslims/foreigners, imo this is a situation that's only going to get worse.

[empire]

I fear that mass immigration, here and the rest of europe, will cause a disaster in the future, and set us back in post war times, it took some years after ww2 was over to rebuild europe, and take for granted, in the paradise we live in, I hope assad wins, so he can rebuild syria, he has alot of powerful friends who can help him with that,

[Denver]

Yes its sad that there in this situation but it is not Britain's fault nor there problem to deal with and Europe shouldnt try forcing us to take them especially when its going to take more money away from British people who need it

[user104658]

Yes its sad that there in this situation but it is not Britain's fault nor there problem to deal with and Europe shouldnt try forcing us to take them especially when its going to take more money away from British people who need it

...it is partially Britain's fault. Learn more stuff.

[Denver]

...it is partially Britain's fault. Learn more stuff.

It os not Britain's fault they didnt force them too flee there country

[user104658]

It os not Britain's fault they didnt force them too flee there country
They did a bit. Britain is partially responsible (a big partially, not a little partially) for the global situation that has lead to these people fleeing their country. We're pretty scummy tbh.

[Livia]

They did a bit. Britain is partially responsible (a big partially, not a little partially) for the global situation that has lead to these people fleeing their country. We're pretty scummy tbh.

We're not more culpable than many other country in Europe and definitely much less so than the USA who are taking precisely zero refugees.

Hey TS...

[Benjamin]

To be honest the media have made it sound like every refugee is just coming over to have an easy life and claim benefits when the alarming fact is many are fleeing a desperate and quite life threating time back in their own country. Yes there will be some who are just looking for that but the poor buggers who actually are looking for saftey and to not have to live like that. If that ever happened to us I would like to think there would be somewhere we could escape to and people would take pity on us, as opposed to treating us like some kind of problem to shunt towards someone else.

[Benjamin]

I saw this kicking around facebook and yeah it got me, as this probably has happened to so many children

RBQ-IoHfimQ

[Livia]

It's a shame that the UN is such a huge, overstuffed, ineffective, toothless organisation. It's the UN who should be sorting this. I know they have refugee camps set up but it's far too little, far too late. I wonder what bloody good they are sometimes.

[Northern Monkey]

I think if it was'nt for us being in the EU and having an open door policy then we would be much more able/willing to take in many more genuine refugees.
Immigration became a dirty word again when the flood gates were opened and tens of thousands of migrants from eastern Europe flocked here in there masses and we could do absolutely nothing as a country to control the numbers.
I don't blame these people,I blame the policies which allowed it.
We should now be in a position where we can and want to help these refugees.
Now hundreds of thousands of migrants from Africa and the Middle East are entering Europe illegally.Some are in desperate need of our help,Some want to come and take our jobs,Some want to come and milk our benefits system and some are terrorists and it is very difficult to seperate the people who are genuinely fleeing for their lives from war torn countries and those who are just trying their luck.
We need to be rejecting the illegal immigrants and taking in the people that we know 100% to be the ones who desperately need the help,directly from the countries affected by major conflict.

[Ninastar]

My view is that yes its sad and awful that these people are dying whilst trying to get to the EU, but we also have to think about what happens if we do allow them to come here. I want to help them as much as anyone but it's such a sticky situation. If we do help, more will risk their lives coming here, which would lead to more deaths... But if we could offer the safety of them staying here and keep doing checks, it wouldn't be the end of the world. We can't take too many as we already have enough people struggling here. But my bet is that these refugees would be happy staying literally anywhere.

We also have the concerns of people who aren't actually 'refugees' entering the UK. I don't doubt for a second that people will use this as an excuse to sneak into the UK and try and convert people to 'extremism' or whatever. but again, if a close eye is kept then it shouldnt be too much of an issue.

However, my main belief is that rather than us saving all these refugees, why don't we look at who is causing the problems, why these people are being killed and if there is anything we can do to stop them. We could save every single refugee right now, but tomorrow, there will be just as many more. We have to look at why this is happening if we really want to help.

[Ammi]

...my views are..the alien races must be looking down and thinking, that's one pretty screwed up planet/when did preservation of life get to be legal or illegal.../invade them..?...no, that's what we've learned, we won't go there...

[billy123]

Until we stop selling arms to these country's then we have no moral high ground whatsoever and we have to take responsibility for our actions as far as i can see the UK sold billions of dollars per year to countrys currently on the UN blacklist after Cameron relaxed rules on weapons sales in 2014.
This is the result of arming people that want to overturn their goverments. The guns dont just vanish when they are done.
These people are fleaing for their lives they arent just off for a knees up at the UK's expense as dumbarse Farrage likes to tell any old fascist that that will listen and believe him.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/08/uk-condemned-arms-sales-repressive-states

[Nedusa]

My view is that we, the UK, have already thrown a billion pounds at this and we've agreed to take some refugees from UN camps but not people who enter the country illegally and I think that's the right thing to do. I think it's time the rest of the world stepped up and recognised this is a global problem and the influx of migrants shouldn't be born by Europe alone.

Totally agree....

:clap1:

[billy123]

My view is that we, the UK, have already thrown a billion pounds at this and we've agreed to take some refugees from UN camps but not people who enter the country illegally and I think that's the right thing to do. I think it's time the rest of the world stepped up and recognised this is a global problem and the influx of migrants shouldn't be born by Europe alone.It isnt being born by Europe alone though far from it Jordan a Country of 6 million people has already taken in 1.5 million Syrian refugees without complaint.

http://en.qantara.de/content/jordan-and-the-influx-of-refugees-the-true-samaritans

[Kizzy]

Until we stop selling arms to these country's then we have no moral high ground whatsoever and we have to take responsibility for our actions as far as i can see the UK sold billions of dollars per year to countrys currently on the UN blacklist after Cameron relaxed rules on weapons sales in 2014.
This is the result of arming people that want to overturn their goverments. The guns dont just vanish when they are done.
These people are fleaing for their lives they arent just off for a knees up at the UK's expense as dumbarse Farrage likes to tell any old fascist that that will listen and believe him.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/08/uk-condemned-arms-sales-repressive-states

:clap1: :clap1:

[Nedusa]

Until we stop selling arms to these country's then we have no moral high ground whatsoever and we have to take responsibility for our actions as far as i can see the UK sold billions of dollars per year to countrys currently on the UN blacklist after Cameron relaxed rules on weapons sales in 2014.
This is the result of arming people that want to overturn their goverments. The guns dont just vanish when they are done.
These people are fleaing for their lives they arent just off for a knees up at the UK's expense as dumbarse Farrage likes to tell any old fascist that that will listen and believe him.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/08/uk-condemned-arms-sales-repressive-states

Who's "we" I didn't sell arms to anyone nor did most people who live in this small overcrowded country. Why should I have to take responsibility for someone else's actions.

And why are you having another pop at Nigel Farage who is actually trying to stand up and help the people living here and why are you using words like fascist....

[Kizzy]

Who's "we" I didn't sell arms to anyone nor did most people who live in this small overcrowded country. Why should I have to take responsibility for someone else's actions.

And why are you having another pop at Nigel Farage who is actually trying to stand up and help the people living here and why are you using words like fascist....

The collective 'we' that represents an elected government?

[JoshBB]

We have a moral obligation to accept as many refugees as we possibly can, especially since the iraq war and bombings in Syria are widely considered to be the root cause for these people to be displaced in the first place.

It's a humanitarian crisis, we shouldn't be looking at whether or not it economically benefits us.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I heard this morning we give more aid to Syria than all other EU countries put together.

But I would have thought refugees would be mainly women and children and not all young men the same age?


Like when a boat sinks

[billy123]

I heard this morning we give more aid to Syria than all other EU countries put together.

But I would have thought refugees would be mainly women and children and not all young men the same age?


Like when a boat sinksWho did they give it to in Syria? surely the people that need it are the ones running for their lives and i dont think money is what they are seeking just now.

[GypsyGoth]

I feel sorry for them.

[joeysteele]

We have a moral obligation to accept as many refugees as we possibly can, especially since the iraq war and bombings in Syria are widely considered to be the root cause for these people to be displaced in the first place.

It's a humanitarian crisis, we shouldn't be looking at whether or not it economically benefits us.

I agree and the UK particularly should be looking at the mess we helped create and leave in place in Libya too.

These people are 'not' in the main economic or personal migrants, they are refugees fleeing harm and likely death in the troubled and war torn Nations.

Throwing money at the problem is not helping clearly that much, odd on this issue,this govt says throwing money is a good thing but to save things like the NHS they should not be throwing money at that.

We have the poorest PM in Europe in my view, a man who says much and does near nothing, he has to be dragged kicking and screaming or shamed into doing the right and/or decent thing.
Slowly he is being made to on this issue, never before from all I have seen or read,have I come to the conclusion that the UK has had such bad and weak leadership in the World from its Prime Minister and govt and we have now.
Thankfully some Conservative MPs have had enough too of his procrastination and saying more needs to be done.

Again JoshBB, I agree with your whole post,that is exactly what we should be doing.

[Tom4784]

We have a responsibility to help as much as we can, we've destabilised the Middle East and allowed the rise of IS. We have inadvertently played a role in causing the immigration crisis.

[Livia]

I heard this morning we give more aid to Syria than all other EU countries put together.

But I would have thought refugees would be mainly women and children and not all young men the same age?


Like when a boat sinks

The constant flow of pictures of young men and the distinct absence of women and children seems to be lost on some. While I do acknowledge that there are some desperate families trying to escape, the vast majority are quite obviously young fit men trying to get into Europe. I'm surprised more press space isn't given over to this.



Who did they give it to in Syria? surely the people that need it are the ones running for their lives and i dont think money is what they are seeking just now.

The money is given as humanitarian aid. It isn't given to anyone in Syria. I'm sure the people who administer this are not stupid.

[lewis111]

I feel I have quite a middle ground view on this issue.
On the one hand I say, these people NEED to get out of their country and to safety, they are all living awful lives, and we can change that. Imagine we closed our doors to Jewish people during WW2, it would've been one of the worst things Britain has done in history, could we do that now
On the other hand, if immigrants keep flowing in how to we keep track of who's in our country, as said before, we've not seen many families traveling across, the majority of the people are young men. The UK also has quite a high unemployment rate at the minute, and if immigrants need jobs to fund for themselves that number will rise. The UK is quite a small country, what about Scandinavia, large countries and a lot of wealth.
I'm not a big fan of David Cameron but I feel he can't win here, don't let Immigrants in he'll get a lot of sht for being heartless, let them in he'll get a lot of sht for the high unemployment rate and dropping economy.
I just dunno

[Tom4784]

The constant flow of pictures of young men and the distinct absence of women and children seems to be lost on some. While I do acknowledge that there are some desperate families trying to escape, the vast majority are quite obviously young fit men trying to get into Europe. I'm surprised more press space isn't given over to this.





The money is given as humanitarian aid. It isn't given to anyone in Syria. I'm sure the people who administer this are not stupid.

It suits the agenda to present the immigrants as opportunistic wasters rather than desperate refugees. There's probably a crapton of footage of families but why would the newspapers, TV channels and politicians focus on that when they can get a stronger reaction from the public when they present the immigrants as wannabe benefit scroungers.

How the news is presented is moulded and shaped to the audience's sensibilities. You won't get many positive stories about Muslims despite the fact there are plenty of good ones out there because Islam=terrorists. You're not going to get many sympathetic stories about struggling families because poor people=scroungers. It goes on and on.

Thankfully (although due to tragic reasons) the way the immigrant crisis is being reported is changing to the more realistic and sympathetic light it should have been reported in.

[JoshBB]

I feel I have quite a middle ground view on this issue.
On the one hand I say, these people NEED to get out of their country and to safety, they are all living awful lives, and we can change that. Imagine we closed our doors to Jewish people during WW2, it would've been one of the worst things Britain has done in history, could we do that now
On the other hand, if immigrants keep flowing in how to we keep track of who's in our country, as said before, we've not seen many families traveling across, the majority of the people are young men. The UK also has quite a high unemployment rate at the minute, and if immigrants need jobs to fund for themselves that number will rise. The UK is quite a small country, what about Scandinavia, large countries and a lot of wealth.
I'm not a big fan of David Cameron but I feel he can't win here, don't let Immigrants in he'll get a lot of sht for being heartless, let them in he'll get a lot of sht for the high unemployment rate and dropping economy.
I just dunno

We aren't taking all the refugees in one go, nobody is suggesting that. We couldn't possibly house the millions of refugees that need homes, but we can do our part. It's a shame that bigger countries like America aren't taking that many on, but we can lead the way by taking numbers in the 10s of thousands.

[Livia]

I feel I have quite a middle ground view on this issue.
On the one hand I say, these people NEED to get out of their country and to safety, they are all living awful lives, and we can change that. Imagine we closed our doors to Jewish people during WW2, it would've been one of the worst things Britain has done in history, could we do that now
On the other hand, if immigrants keep flowing in how to we keep track of who's in our country, as said before, we've not seen many families traveling across, the majority of the people are young men. The UK also has quite a high unemployment rate at the minute, and if immigrants need jobs to fund for themselves that number will rise. The UK is quite a small country, what about Scandinavia, large countries and a lot of wealth.
I'm not a big fan of David Cameron but I feel he can't win here, don't let Immigrants in he'll get a lot of sht for being heartless, let them in he'll get a lot of sht for the high unemployment rate and dropping economy.
I just dunno

People have quite a fluffy view of how this country reacted to the Jewish crisis in WW2. There was very vocal opposition to Jews coming here. After the war many were kept in holding camps for months... years. It wasn't all, come on in and have a cup of tea, mate. In 1938 over 300,000 German Jews had applied for only 27,000 refugee places. My family were lucky to be accepted in to the UK, but many weren't.

[Livia]

We aren't taking all the refugees in one go, nobody is suggesting that. We couldn't possibly house the millions of refugees that need homes, but we can do our part. It's a shame that bigger countries like America aren't taking that many on, but we can lead the way by taking numbers in the 10s of thousands.

We are taking our share, alongside the fact that this country took in 300,000 foreign nationals last year from Europe. We will only be taking people from UN refugee camps which is totally the right thing and may hopefully deter some from making the journey illegally. We've also given a billion pounds so far toward humanitarian aid in Syria and the surrounding area, much more than any other European country and more, I have heard, than the rest of Europe combined. I'm quite proud of what we're doing. Could we do more? Possibly... we can always do more. Should we do more? I think by doing more we are enabling other countries - the USA, Canada, Australia - not to step up to the plate.

[JoshBB]

We are taking our share, alongside the fact that this country took in 300,000 foreign nationals last year from Europe. We will only be taking people from UN refugee camps which is totally the right thing and may hopefully deter some from making the journey illegally. We've also given a billion pounds so far toward humanitarian aid in Syria and the surrounding area, much more than any other European country and more, I have heard, than the rest of Europe combined. I'm quite proud of what we're doing. Could we do more? Possibly... we can always do more. Should we do more? I think by doing more we are enabling other countries - the USA, Canada, Australia - not to step up to the plate.

I agree that those countries need to do more, but by deciding not to help anymore and saying "its your responsibility not mine!", we're letting people die that don't need to.

[Livia]

I agree that those countries need to do more, but by deciding not to help anymore and saying "its your responsibility not mine!", we're letting people die that don't need to.

Who's saying "it's your responsibility not mine"? Obviously from the contributions we've made and the agreement to take refugees from UN camps we have recognised our responsibility. The Royal Navy has at least three ships in the Med and has rescued thousands of people. But we are a tiny country and cannot take everyone. The whole world needs to work together on this instead of squabbling while people die.

[kirklancaster]

People have quite a fluffy view of how this country reacted to the Jewish crisis in WW2. There was very vocal opposition to Jews coming here. After the war many were kept in holding camps for months... years. It wasn't all, come on in and have a cup of tea, mate. In 1938 over 300,000 German Jews had applied for only 27,000 refugee places. My family were lucky to be accepted in to the UK, but many weren't.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

I think it would do most people good to read up on their history and just how treacherously the British Government treated the Jews.

[kirklancaster]

It suits the agenda to present the immigrants as opportunistic wasters rather than desperate refugees. There's probably a crapton of footage of families but why would the newspapers, TV channels and politicians focus on that when they can get a stronger reaction from the public when they present the immigrants as wannabe benefit scroungers.

How the news is presented is moulded and shaped to the audience's sensibilities. You won't get many positive stories about Muslims despite the fact there are plenty of good ones out there because Islam=terrorists. You're not going to get many sympathetic stories about struggling families because poor people=scroungers. It goes on and on.

Thankfully (although due to tragic reasons) the way the immigrant crisis is being reported is changing to the more realistic and sympathetic light it should have been reported in.

It must be some colossal coincidence then that the media are 'cherry-picking' footage of immigrants which is mainly young, fit, well clad, and well shod men, to the exclusion of women and children, because MY own direct experience of our Northern towns and cities is that the vast majority of immigrants ARE INDEED young, fit, well clad, and well shod men.

In the past few weeks I have watched Alan Titmarsh renovate the garden of a Muslim mother who is a veritable saint due to the charity work she carries out and she was well-loved by her entire community (and by me) and watched a beautiful and charming young Muslim woman take part in the Great British Bake-Off, and she was enchanting.

And this is on top of several other documentary programs which gave platforms to 'moderate' Muslims.

I do not recognise any bias towards Muslims in our Media, but no one is stupid enough to think that ALL Muslims are terrorists even if there was.

[Cherie]

The problem is no one seems capable of setting up a system that will process refugees and weed out those taking advantage of those who are fleeing war and persecution. The media lump them all under the word migrant which gives the impression that they left their homes and lives for better ones elsewhere in Europe. I think whilst we should be doing more for refugees we need to be careful we are not letting people who mean to do us harm in at the same time.

[arista]

Dezzy
Our PM is taking Syrian Familys direct from the UN Base outside
of Syria.

They are LEGAL.

The others use Criminal Evil Murdering /Profit First Smugglers


So Our PM is doing the right thing.

We need to Get out of Europe
as they are going to sink under these Millions of
Illegal people

[arista]

The problem is no one seems capable of setting up a system that will process refugees and weed out those taking advantage of those who are fleeing war and persecution. The media lump them all under the word migrant which gives the impression that they left their homes and lives for better ones elsewhere in Europe. I think whilst we should be doing more for refugees we need to be careful we are not letting people who mean to do us harm in at the same time.

Our PM is taking only them
as they can not return to Syria.
So he will take Legal Familys from the Jordan UN Base
near Syria.


Our PM has sorted Our Side


Germany can Get Fecked

[Livia]

The problem is no one seems capable of setting up a system that will process refugees and weed out those taking advantage of those who are fleeing war and persecution. The media lump them all under the word migrant which gives the impression that they left their homes and lives for better ones elsewhere in Europe. I think whilst we should be doing more for refugees we need to be careful we are not letting people who mean to do us harm in at the same time.

You'd think the UN would be the perfect organisation to do this. Really, I wonder what their function actually is.

[Cherie]

Our PM is taking only them
as they can not return to Syria.
So he will take Legal Familys from the Jordan UN Base
near Syria.


Our PM has sorted Our Side


Germany can Get Fecked


I agree with him doing that tbh, I think Germany's open borders policy is ridiculous

[Tom4784]

It must be some colossal coincidence then that the media are 'cherry-picking' footage of immigrants which is mainly young, fit, well clad, and well shod men, to the exclusion of women and children, because MY own direct experience of our Northern towns and cities is that the vast majority of immigrants ARE INDEED young, fit, well clad, and well shod men.

In the past few weeks I have watched Alan Titmarsh renovate the garden of a Muslim mother who is a veritable saint due to the charity work she carries out and she was well-loved by her entire community (and by me) and watched a beautiful and charming young Muslim woman take part in the Great British Bake-Off, and she was enchanting.

And this is on top of several other documentary programs which gave platforms to 'moderate' Muslims.

I do not recognise any bias towards Muslims in our Media, but no one is stupid enough to think that ALL Muslims are terrorists even if there was.

It doesn't matter what they look like, they're refugees from a bullet ridden hell that we've played a large part in creating. Again, I explained all this in my first post. Why stir up sympathy for these people when there's more to gain by stirring up hate instead? Our individual experiences don't matter, least of all yours because these aren't immigrants, they're refugees. They haven't ran from their countries because they fancy our economy, they've ran for their lives.

As for your point about muslims, for every positive representation you offer I can find hundreds more examples of demonisation. Alan Titchmarsh and the GBBO doesn't offset that. There's a lot of bias in the media against muslims, poor people, refugees etc. Just look at the tabloids.

[Cherie]

You'd think the UN would be the perfect organisation to do this. Really, I wonder what their function actually is.

I'm wondering myself

[arista]

"It doesn't matter what they look like, they're refugees from a bullet ridden hell that we've played a large part in creating."


Bang On Right Dezzy


Thats why Our PM is taking Refugees direct
from UN Bases near the outside of Syria
a nation they can not return to.



Not from the Murdering /Evil /Profit First Smugglers
who use dodgy dingys

[Crimson Dynamo]

Tells you a lot about a nation when the bulk of the "poor refugees" are fit young men


:rolleyes:

[arista]

Tells you a lot about a nation when the bulk of the "poor refugees" are fit young men


:rolleyes:


Yes but from the UN Base
near Syria Our PM is taking Familys
not loads of men.

[smudgie]

Tells you a lot about a nation when the bulk of the "poor refugees" are fit young men


:rolleyes:

Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy:shrug:

[Denver]

Where are they going to live though? And Why should the tax payers have to pay for it? I feel sorry for them i genuinely do but we can only allow a small amount in

[user104658]

There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.

[user104658]

Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy:shrug:
With what? Sticks and enthusiasm? I guess we could arm them all with AK47's... That worked so well in Afghanistan in the 80's, it's bound to be worth another go.

[user104658]

Where are they going to live though? And Why should the tax payers have to pay for it? I feel sorry for them i genuinely do but we can only allow a small amount in
Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.

[Denver]

Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.

There are not enough houses as it is

[user104658]

This below was just reposted on my Facebook, says it better than I have been. People who still believe in silly fluffy cups of tea Hugh Grant Mr Bean Britain Britain Britain might not like it but this is your world, this is your history, you ARE responsible. Deal with it.

Over the last 200 years, Britain has systematically invaded, ravaged and destabilised just about every country in the world. We’ve installed brutal dictators, hoovered up natural resources, sold arms, and started wars just to make sure that this great island stays comfortable, healthy and wealthy.

If you enjoy all the perks of living in this country - schools, healthcare, jobs, roads, nice houses, museums, flat whites - then you need to at least acknowledge that this comfort and safety comes from decades and centuries of your country being an absolute bastard.

And this is not an independence thing - Scotland is as historically implicit in colonialism, slavery and arms dealing as the rest of the UK.

The middle classes right now, or at least the reactionary readers of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph, would want you to look after your own right now. The refugees escaping Syria and Africa are not our problem.

They are totally our problem. As a society, we’ve sat idly by while our governments have destroyed countries, and fuelled terrorism and civil wars, just so our cost of living can stay low and our standards of living can stay high. We have enough to share. We have enough space, and we have enough money. We live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and we’re happy to reap the benefits of our global cavorting. Now, when it’s coming back to bite us on the arse, we have to accept full responsibility for it. Donate, petition, protest. Just don’t ignore.

[smudgie]

With what? Sticks and enthusiasm? I guess we could arm them all with AK47's... That worked so well in Afghanistan in the 80's, it's bound to be worth another go.

Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.

[user104658]

Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.

There is no perfect / or even good / solution. The world is broken. Just saying, we played a huge part in breaking it, so we should help make the fall as comfortable as possible. Or if we're not going to do that, we could at least have the balls to acknowledge it :shrug:.

[Livia]

This below was just reposted on my Facebook, says it better than I have been. People who still believe in silly fluffy cups of tea Hugh Grant Mr Bean Britain Britain Britain might not like it but this is your world, this is your history, you ARE responsible. Deal with it.

You seriously believe that we're the worst country in the world, don't you. Everything is our responsibility. Personally, I think the Romans are partially responsible, they invaded, enslaved, raped, pillaged... B*stards.

I'm going to ask this question again: how many refugees is the USA taking? Or are they not equally responsible than any country in Europe.

And as a final word... this country has done some positive things in the world. I'm yet to see you mention any one of them. How about the fact we've given more than anyone else in Europe to this crisis? How about the work of the Royal Navy? It's good to balance the positive with the negative or things look skewed.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.

er i think you underestimate the UK :nono:

we are not spineless cowards

that is why we won wars when we should have lost

[MTVN]

Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.

Well Syria does have an army, trouble is we were supporting the armed opposition to that army until recently. We still claim to support the 'moderate' rebels but the reality is they are next to non-existent now that IS and other extremists dominate the Syrian opposition to the extent they do. Iraq had an army but we disbanded it after the invasion and its new one is a complete mess. Libya had an army but we supported the armed opposition to that too which is now a series of competing militias, many of them extreme, now roaming the country with the government lacking any control. Not an ideal situation for the budding young patriot to head off to the trenches for his country.

[kirklancaster]

Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.

:facepalm: Your views are increasingly over-simplistic, almost infantile, T.S. and certainly not true at all.

1) EVERY great civilisation has - at some time in history - "exploited the rest of the world".

2) No one on Tibb, or in the UK, even, 'Throws up his hands' and squeals; ""Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!".

The British are among the kindest, most charitable and caring people on Earth, so just for a nice change from continually berating us and denigrating our intelligence and our natures, why don't you prove your hysterical 'sweeping' statements with hard factual evidence?

[smudgie]

Well Syria does have an army, trouble is we were supporting the armed opposition to that army until recently. We still claim to support the 'moderate' rebels but the reality is they are next to non-existent now that IS and other extremists dominate the Syrian opposition to the extent they do. Iraq had an army but we disbanded it after the invasion and its new one is a complete mess. Libya had an army but we supported the armed opposition to that too which is now a series of competing militias, many of them extreme, now roaming the country with the government lacking any control. Not an ideal situation for the budding young patriot to head off to the trenches for his country.

Terrible situation all round.
I can see your point about it not being an ideal situation for the young men to stand up to fight.
Goodness only knows if there will ever be a solution to this mess.

[user104658]

You seriously believe that we're the worst country in the world, don't you.

No, I just completely reject the notion that we are some sort of benevolent "force for good" in the world or ever have been, or even that we are somehow benign and blameless in these situations. We're not. The British Empire created a complete ****ing shambles as it was rising, The US I agree then took that torch and carried it even further. I don't for a second think it's "only" the UK or that we're the worst, other European nations too (many of them) did the same. The first world has amassed wealth by colonising the third, and by pillaging vast resources from other parts of the world, and now the aftershocks of all of that are starting to hit home. And we all put on our best shocked-face and pretend to be surprised?

Kirk asks me for "evidence"? I don't even understand. Stop. Look at the world. Look at what is happening, look at where it's happening, and tell me that it's a coincidence that it's spreading out from areas that are absolutely covered in our fingerprints.

[GypsyGoth]

We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.

[user104658]

We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.

I can pretty much guarantee that you would get shot.

Probably before you got on the boat.

[Livia]

No, I just completely reject the notion that we are some sort of benevolent "force for good" in the world or ever have been, or even that we are somehow benign and blameless in these situations. We're not. The British Empire created a complete ****ing shambles as it was rising, The US I agree then took that torch and carried it even further. I don't for a second think it's "only" the UK or that we're the worst, other European nations too (many of them) did the same. The first world has amassed wealth by colonising the third, and by pillaging vast resources from other parts of the world, and now the aftershocks of all of that are starting to hit home. And we all put on our best shocked-face and pretend to be surprised?

Kirk asks me for "evidence"? I don't even understand. Stop. Look at the world. Look at what is happening, look at where it's happening, and tell me that it's a coincidence that it's spreading out from areas that are absolutely covered in our fingerprints.

The British Empire was a long time ago. It's the Commonwealth now and that's a good thing. So good that Mozambique, which was never part of the Empire asked to join and was accepted.

People shaft each other and power corrupts. It's human nature. But there's a balance; for all the harm that's done there are selfless acts of kindness.

[Kizzy]

Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy:shrug:

Are you saying these men are cowards because they don't want to stay in their country and die? :/

[user104658]

The British Empire was a long time ago. It's the Commonwealth now and that's a good thing. So good that Mozambique, which was never part of the Empire asked to join and was accepted.

People shaft each other and power corrupts. It's human nature. But there's a balance; for all the harm that's done there are selfless acts of kindness.

A few hundred years ago is not really a "long time" ago, though, is it? It's taken a long time for things to start to unravel, but we're certainly there. I've mentioned before in other threads - the road down won't be quick either.

I disagree that there's balance. There is selflessness and kindness... but there is nowhere near enough of it to change the path we're on.

[Livia]

A few hundred years ago is not really a "long time" ago, though, is it? It's taken a long time for things to start to unravel, but we're certainly there. I've mentioned before in other threads - the road down won't be quick either.

I disagree that there's balance. There is selflessness and kindness... but there is nowhere near enough of it to change the path we're on.

You need a hug, TS.

[user104658]

You need a hug, TS.

The world needs a hug!

[Livia]

The world needs a hug!

I only have room for a finite amount of hugs.

[Kizzy]

I have a bleeding heart if that's any good?....

[smudgie]

Are you saying these men are cowards because they don't want to stay in their country and die? :/

I was genuinely wondering why they didn't stay and fight.
As if appears there is no proper army they could join I would hardly call them cowards.
Different world to what we are brought up in and takes a bit of understanding.:shrug:

[the truth]

I think if it was'nt for us being in the EU and having an open door policy then we would be much more able/willing to take in many more genuine refugees.
Immigration became a dirty word again when the flood gates were opened and tens of thousands of migrants from eastern Europe flocked here in there masses and we could do absolutely nothing as a country to control the numbers.
I don't blame these people,I blame the policies which allowed it.
We should now be in a position where we can and want to help these refugees.
Now hundreds of thousands of migrants from Africa and the Middle East are entering Europe illegally.Some are in desperate need of our help,Some want to come and take our jobs,Some want to come and milk our benefits system and some are terrorists and it is very difficult to seperate the people who are genuinely fleeing for their lives from war torn countries and those who are just trying their luck.
We need to be rejecting the illegal immigrants and taking in the people that we know 100% to be the ones who desperately need the help,directly from the countries affected by major conflict.

spot on, but new labour made it politically incorrect to speak about it as frankly as you

[Nedusa]

It doesn't matter what they look like, they're refugees from a bullet ridden hell that we've played a large part in creating. Again, I explained all this in my first post. Why stir up sympathy for these people when there's more to gain by stirring up hate instead? Our individual experiences don't matter, least of all yours because these aren't immigrants, they're refugees. They haven't ran from their countries because they fancy our economy, they've ran for their lives.

As for your point about muslims, for every positive representation you offer I can find hundreds more examples of demonisation. Alan Titchmarsh and the GBBO doesn't offset that. There's a lot of bias in the media against muslims, poor people, refugees etc. Just look at the tabloids.

Of course it matters what they look like, especially if picture after picture shows boat load of fit young males most quite well attired intent on coming to the UK regardless of the hurdles put in their place.

Do you really think these are refugees....seriously what person seeking safety or sanctuary from a war ravished country would leave his wife and children behind ..answer... Nobody in fact it would be the only thing they would be desperate to get to safety.

Yet we see boat loads of these young men hellbent on coming to the UK on their own. They are clearly economic migrants or even more sinister they may be part of a plan to infiltrate the country with radicalised Muslim ISIS sympathisers.

Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees.

[Nedusa]

We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[arista]

"Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees"

Outside of Syria in the UN base camp
they are refugees.
Some Familys from there will come
to the UK.

The PM is taking the Legal refugees

[Ammi]

Of course it matters what they look like, especially if picture after picture shows boat load of fit young males most quite well attired intent on coming to the UK regardless of the hurdles put in their place.

Do you really think these are refugees....seriously what person seeking safety or sanctuary from a war ravished country would leave his wife and children behind ..answer... Nobody in fact it would be the only thing they would be desperate to get to safety.

Yet we see boat loads of these young men hellbent on coming to the UK on their own. They are clearly economic migrants or even more sinister they may be part of a plan to infiltrate the country with radicalised Muslim ISIS sympathisers.

Either way they are most definitely NOT refugees.

..if the refugees are mainly young males then it would still make perfect sense to me to be that way..in their culture, it would be the males who could flee with more opportunity to find work etc...they wouldn't see that having wives/female members of their family and children coming alone would be something that could give the whole family an opportunity of a life/job/safety/home etc..and maybe all they can afford is one 'passage fare' so the males would be the ones to take that...and why should they not, in their hearts, they would hope to earn the money to then send to their families to come join them...their world is just not the one we know...and 'well attired', well yes because they would also think that so important in securing a job...that if they came here 'in rags' then how would they be able to get a job..?...

..and as for the ISIS sympathisers that may come also, well yes that may happen with a few or some but if we lived our lives of 'possible dangers' then we probably would lock ourselves away and never leave the house...we may as well be in a box surely...if you 'live out' every danger in life, no one would ever do anything and what a pretty crumby world that would be and far worse than anything else I personally think...

[lostalex]

I think it's hilarious how the germans have spun this to make themselves seem so generous, when the fact is they've barely taken in a fraction of what the nearby arab countries have. and not even close to the number of people the US has taken in.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

[lostalex]

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

you haven't looked at the statistics then. the vast majority of syrian refugees are in the nearby arab countries. the Guardian had a chart showing comparisons of which countries have taken in how many the other day.

Europe has gotten off light compares to what the gulf states have had to deal with.

[Crimson Dynamo]

you haven't looked at the statistics then. the vast majority of syrian refugees are in the nearby arab countries. the Guardian had a chart showing comparisons of which countries have taken in how many the other day.


Not according to one of your esteemed newspapers they aint

The Arab world’s wealthiest nations are doing next to nothing for Syria’s refugees

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/

[lostalex]

Not according to one of your esteemed newspapers they aint

The Arab world’s wealthiest nations are doing next to nothing for Syria’s refugees

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/

but they have had to take in the most. like i said.

[Kizzy]

'The vulnerable persons relocation scheme (VPRS) was introduced in January 2014 to provide a route for the most vulnerable Syrian refugees to come to the UK. These are victims of torture and sexual violence, the elderly and those in need of medical care. So far 216 refugees have been housed through the scheme by a number of councils across the UK, and given access to healthcare, education and employment.'

'Bradford council signed up to the relocation scheme in March 2014 and has resettled 103 vulnerable refugees: 23 families with 55 children and seven single people. “They have been welcomed and supported by the community as they deal with the trauma they have suffered, and the difficulties they face settling into a new culture in a foreign city far from their home,”

Yorkshire leads the way, strange how the least affluent boroughs are the ones willing to help...

http://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2015/sep/04/refugee-crisis-uk-local-government-response-syria

[Livia]

I am not seeing much "taking in of refugees" from the rich Arab states?

"As of February 2015, over 622,000 Syrians had registered with UNHCR in Jordan."

http://syrianrefugees.eu/?page_id=87

[joeysteele]

There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

[Livia]

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

[Ammi]

..I do think also though that many people hold their views because they're genuinely frightened..frightened for an already stretched economy and benefits that have already been cut and yes, also frightened of an 'ISIS threat' so I don't really think judgement of those people or loss of faith etc is really helpful in their understandings etc and also it's a judgement for what is felt that others are doing in judging the migrants../which I don't understand personally..it's also just taking focus off the migrants themselves and the crisis...that wasn't directed at you btw Joey or your post specifically but something that was said earlier in the thread...

[Kizzy]

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

Has our response been proportional to our involvement? Even now the PM is considering whether to extend the bombing in Syria, based on whether or not he will have opposition backing... Nothing to do with what the nation wants he's using the 'National security' carrot again in the hope we'll go along with his plans... Am I proud of our actions? No I'm not.

[joeysteele]

It so upsets me to see comments like this when we've given a billion pounds in humanitarian aid to the region, when the Royal Navy have saved countless lives in the Med and when our contribution has been the biggest in Europe. We're taking refugees from UN camps which is totally the right thing to do. We have supported Jordan who've taken hundreds of thousands of refugees... and this is all separate to the aid and support that's been given individually by the British population to organisations like the Red Cross, MSF and others.

I am extremely proud to be a Brit in this crisis.

That is fair enough with respect.
However I am far feeling being proud, as Nicola Sturgeon put it,of in the main the UK govt walking by on the other side throwing money at a problem to hope it goes away in the main.
That hasn't helped clearly.
I don't think we have done enough,I feel we are led by the weakest leader the UK has ever had in real crissi situations.

I still hold the UK in part responsible for the mess left in Libya,now we have a Conservative MP this morning saying we should talk to Assad in Syria because were his govt to fall, then ISIS take over, the consequences would be truly devastating.
I agree with that, will this PM, I won;t hold my breath as to that one.

We should be doing more and we are now only taking more action as to taking in 'refugees' because the PM has been 'shamed' into doing so.

I will also never be proud to see anyone fleeing for their lives from bloodthirsty assassins like ISIS, being branded wastes of space or cowards by my so calleld fellow citizens in Britain.
If that terminology is deemed something to proud of then I am very glad I will never be so.

[smudgie]

Well, Putin is going to save the day.
Siding with Assad against IS, leave him to it I say.:shrug:

[Kizzy]

'A fundamental review of Britain’s £9bn aid budget will be used to fund Syrian refugees for their first year in the UK and to support Syria’s neighbours hosting camps, George Osborne has said.

As David Cameron prepares to brief MPs on Monday on the government’s plans to admit thousands of extra refugees, the chancellor said the UK would focus on admitting Syrian orphans.

He declined to say how many refugees the government would take, after the Sunday Times reported the figure could be as high as 15,000. He indicated, however, that the government is minded to take several thousand and may even come close to the EU demand of 18,000.
In an interview on the Andrew Marr Show on BBC1, Osborne also confirmed that the government is unlikely to table a Commons vote on extending airstrikes against Islamic State targets in Iraq to Syria unless it wins Labour support. This suggests that the government will be wary of holding the vote in the event of Jeremy Corbyn winning the Labour leadership contest.'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/06/george-osborne-to-divert-foreign-aid-to-help-syrian-refugees-in-uk

[user104658]

..I do think also though that many people hold their views because they're genuinely frightened..frightened for an already stretched economy and benefits that have already been cut and yes, also frightened of an 'ISIS threat' so I don't really think judgement of those people or loss of faith etc is really helpful in their understandings etc and also it's a judgement for what is felt that others are doing in judging the migrants../which I don't understand personally..it's also just taking focus off the migrants themselves and the crisis...that wasn't directed at you btw Joey or your post specifically but something that was said earlier in the thread...
I think this is probably accurate, people are scared and don't want themselves / this country to be dragged under with the weight of all of this. I'd even go as far as to say that's fair enough, I understand that, I'm not sure I agree that it's realistic but if THEY believe it then I understand their fear and why they don't want it to happen...

However, I would have much more respect and understanding if people would just admit it. Admit that these poor desperate people deserve help, deserve OUR help as a nation which has (undoubtedly) benefitted and become richer on the backs of others, and admit that if it's true - if we really can't help more - that that is a tragedy. Saying we want to help, we can see that you need our help, we grieve for you and your nation, but we simply cannot help more... If that is the case... Then so be it.

But is that what we do? Some, yes, but not all or most. Look at our media and look at public reaction. Avoidance, blame, scapegoating, insisting until blue in the face that these are all just "scroungers" who don't even genuinely need help. Vilifying them, shouting "look at their phones! Look how well off they are! Put them back on the boats home!"...

It's shameful. Utterly shameful. And being scared is no excuse for it.

[Nedusa]

I have to fully agree with you.
Right now at present I am almost ashamed to think of myself as being born in England.

People fleeing troubled nations that are war torn or being invaded by such a rotten horrific set of beings like ISIS,who then want to get away from that and save their own and hopefully some of their familys lives too and have a possible future elsewhere, being branded as wastes of space.

I really despair for the UK as a decent Nation if people continue to judge others this way.
I hope the change of heart that has been sort of provoked by the image of that sad death of the young boy, will gain momentum even more.
However already there could have been many images of loss of young life, even babies,that have not been shown.

Awful secenes and an even worse chaos for the other Ntaions of the World to help sort out with compassion not just firing out condemnation from the easier lives we have here at present.

Really.... ??? How Sad

Personally.. I feel proud to be English and British .

[Ammi]

I think this is probably accurate, people are scared and don't want themselves / this country to be dragged under with the weight of all of this. I'd even go as far as to say that's fair enough, I understand that, I'm not sure I agree that it's realistic but if THEY believe it then I understand their fear and why they don't want it to happen...

However, I would have much more respect and understanding if people would just admit it. Admit that these poor desperate people deserve help, deserve OUR help as a nation which has (undoubtedly) benefitted and become richer on the backs of others, and admit that if it's true - if we really can't help more - that that is a tragedy. Saying we want to help, we can see that you need our help, we grieve for you and your nation, but we simply cannot help more... If that is the case... Then so be it.

But is that what we do? Some, yes, but not all or most. Look at our media and look at public reaction. Avoidance, blame, scapegoating, insisting until blue in the face that these are all just "scroungers" who don't even genuinely need help. Vilifying them, shouting "look at their phones! Look how well off they are! Put them back on the boats home!"...

It's shameful. Utterly shameful. And being scared is no excuse for it.

..but you yourself know though through your psychology studies that fear is often outwardly projected in different ways and yes, anger is a huge projection...so, 'what if these young men are not what they seem and will kill my children..'..etc..are here to harm us..?...(when it's just actually as plausible that a female or child could do that anyway..)..can be projected as...'no, go away, you're not genuine and we don't want you'...but it's still fear../the root cause..?...and not something that will do any good condemning in any way...

..and yeah, I know the media but it isn't just with this, it's with most things/the negative portrayal..I think I may have said this in another thread...as awful as they are, they do 'know their audience' as well and with the comments at the bottom of their stories/different stories...and also look at threads on here etc...with a negative 'angle' then it provokes pages and pages of comments and discussion but with a positive human story or portrayal there is very little other than ...aww, that's nice/type thing or maybe no comments at all...I think that's always been a big part of 'human nature' as well/like the gossipy ladies over the garden fence/or so they were portrayed back in the day...lots of discussion about the 'bad stuff'....

[user104658]

Yeah... People are pretty awful, and they're worse when they're scared. Lynch mentality is obviously nothing new, I guess what bothers me is when people seem to revel in it. Become snide, and sneering. Even if that is just to cover up the fact that they're terrified.

[Ammi]

Yeah... People are pretty awful, and they're worse when they're scared. Lynch mentality is obviously nothing new, I guess what bothers me is when people seem to revel in it. Become snide, and sneering. Even if that is just to cover up the fact that they're terrified.

...but you don't exactly quise your feelings either ..:laugh:..your judgement of others and very often people don't even know where their feelings are coming from/don't consciously acknowledge or realise their fears, but is doesn't mean that they're not there ...for some people obviously...

[Livia]

That is fair enough with respect.
However I am far feeling being proud, as Nicola Sturgeon put it,of in the main the UK govt walking by on the other side throwing money at a problem to hope it goes away in the main.
That hasn't helped clearly.
I don't think we have done enough,I feel we are led by the weakest leader the UK has ever had in real crissi situations.

I still hold the UK in part responsible for the mess left in Libya,now we have a Conservative MP this morning saying we should talk to Assad in Syria because were his govt to fall, then ISIS take over, the consequences would be truly devastating.
I agree with that, will this PM, I won;t hold my breath as to that one.

We should be doing more and we are now only taking more action as to taking in 'refugees' because the PM has been 'shamed' into doing so.

I will also never be proud to see anyone fleeing for their lives from bloodthirsty assassins like ISIS, being branded wastes of space or cowards by my so calleld fellow citizens in Britain.
If that terminology is deemed something to proud of then I am very glad I will never be so.

Having seen for myself the way our humanitarian aid has been helping in Jordan, I disagree most strongly that we've just "thrown money at it".

There are people in ALL countries who are very anti the refugees and speak about them in hostile language, however the whole country doesn't get branded the way we Brits brand ourselves; also they don't tend to take it as an opportunity to knock the government rather than thinking the very real thought that, whoever was in parliament it would be running pretty much the same. No... other countries rather try to focus on the good that's being done. That's what shames me.

[the truth]

merkel is the biggest culprit...1) why is it acceptable to have 1 person lead Europe and her country at the same time? conflict of interests? duh
2) she is the one demanding open borders. now guess what happens>? armies of tens fo thosusands marching on countries. and how do we tell the illegal immigrants from the economic migrants from the refugees? when theyre charging down your door?
3) now why does merkel want open borders? hmmm because german population has fallen for a decade. whereas most other countries in Europe have grown, uk is up 3.7 million in 10 years? but now she looks like the good guy? she wants masses arriving to work the menial jobs, lower wages and pay for the old peoples pensions in time
4) merkel is the one who created the EU cartel closed shop to stop the Africans and middle east trading with us....she oversaw the raping of the African coasts..
5) she has made the EU utterly unaccountable , unaccounted for a decade, wasteful, overly burocratic, shes enslaved us even more to corporations and ruined small businesses across eurpe

nice one anjela

[the truth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population
refugee intake across the globe

the figures in Jordan and Lebanon are staggering
Ireland brazil spain Russia japan the arab emirates, mexico, north korea, west indies are doing almost sod all to help


Rank

Country / Territory

Total population

Refugee population[1]

Natives per refugee


— World 7,268,400,000 10,395,553 699
1 Pakistan 182,490,722 2,600,000[2] 70
2 Jordan 6,316,001 2,485,650[3] 3
3 Syria 21,906,000 1,254,634[3] 17
4 Iran 74,196,000 996,468 74
5 Germany 82,046,000 571,685 144
6 Kenya 39,802,000 650,610 [4] 70
7 Lebanon 4,224,000 1,172,753 [5] 4
8 Chad 11,206,000 366,494 31
9 People's Republic of China[6] 1,373,680,000 301,018 4563
10 Ethiopia 79,221,000 288,844 274
11 United States 321,766,000 763 1215
12 Bangladesh 162,221,000 229,669 706
13 Yemen 23,580,000 214,740 110
14 France [7] 65,073,482 210,207 310
15 Venezuela 28,456,383 202,022 141
16 United Kingdom 61,634,599 193,510 319
17 India 1,261,040,000 185,118 6812
18 Canada 33,476,688 164,883 203
19 Dem. Rep. of Congo 66,020,000 152,749 432
20 Republic of the Congo 3,683,000 141,232 26
21 Uganda 32,710,000 139,448 235
22 Sudan 30,894,000 139,415 222
23 Tanzania 43,739,000 131,243 333
24 Liberia 3,476,608 128,293 70
25 Ecuador 14,036,775 123,436 114
26 South Sudan 8,260,490 105,023 79
27 Cameroon 19,522,000 100,373 194
28 Egypt 77,116,112 95,087 811
29 Algeria 34,895,000 94,148 371
30 Thailand 63,389,730 89,253 710
31 Malaysia 27,468,000 86,680 317
32 Sweden 9,292,359 86,615 107
33 Netherlands 16,535,207 74,598 222
34 Nepal 29,331,000 72,654 404
35 Serbia 9,850,000 70,707 139
36 Italy 60,088,880 58,060 1035
37 South Africa 49,320,000 57,899 852
38 Rwanda 9,998,000 55,325 181
39 Switzerland 7,739,100 50,416 154
40 Austria 8,355,260 47,073 177
41 Zambia 12,935,000 45,632 283
42 Israel [8] 7,434,000 41,235 180
43 Norway [9] 4,834,000 40,691 119
44 Burundi 8,303,000 35,659 233
45 Iraq 30,747,000 35,189 874
46 Mauritania 3,291,000 26,535 124
47 Côte d'Ivoire 21,075,000 24,221 870
48 Australia[10] 24,162,000 23,434 1031
49 Belgium 10,754,528 22,402 480
50 Senegal 12,534,000 20,644 607
51 Djibouti 864,000 20,340 42
52 Costa Rica 4,579,000 20,057 228
53 Togo 6,619,000 19,270 343
54 Panama 3,454,000 17,262 200
55 Central African Republic 4,422,000 16,730 264
56 Guinea 10,069,000 16,609 606
57 Angola 18,498,000 16,223 1140
58 Poland 38,100,700 15,847 2404
59 Mali 13,010,000 15,624 833
60 Turkey 71,517,100 1,633,560[11] 44
61 Ghana 23,837,000 13,588 1754
62 Denmark 5,519,441 13,399 412
63 Montenegro 620,029 12,874 48
64 Libya 6,420,000 10,130 634
65 Gambia 1,705,000 9,528 179
66 Papua New Guinea 6,732,000 9,377 718
67 Finland [12] 5,343,608 9,175 582
68 Nigeria 154,729,000 8,806 17571
69 Ireland 4,422,100 8,249 536
70 Sierra Leone 5,696,000 8,092 704
71 Guinea-Bissau 1,611,000 7,800 207
72 Benin 8,935,000 7,217 1238
73 Bosnia and Herzegovina 3,767,000 6,933 543
74 Malawi 15,263,000 6,308 2420
75 Kyrgyzstan 5,482,000 6,095 899
76 Namibia 2,171,000 6,049 359
77 Bulgaria 7,364,570 5,688 1295
78 Hungary 10,031,208 5,106 1965
79 Eritrea 5,073,000 4,719 1075
80 Zimbabwe 12,523,000 4,561 2746
81 Brazil 202,448,000 4,477 45220
82 Spain 45,929,476 4,228 1086
83 Tunisia 10,327,800 4,097 2521
84 Russia 141,498,000 3,914 36152
85 Cyprus [13] 801,600 3,503 229
86 Argentina 40,134,425 3,361 11941
87 Botswana 1,950,000 3,312 589
88 Ukraine 46,029,281 3,176 14493
89 Afghanistan 28,150,000 3,009 9355
90 Tajikistan 6,952,000 3,009 2310
91 Armenia 3,230,100 2,918 1107
92 Luxembourg 493,500 2,855 173
93 Japan 127,590,000 2,649 48165
94 Croatia 4,435,056 2,600 1706
95 Czech Republic 10,467,542 2,449 4274
96 Somalia 9,133,000 2,099 4351
97 New Zealand 4,430,400 1,933 2291
98 Gabon 1,475,000 1,773 832
99 Azerbaijan 8,629,900 1,730 4988
100 Mexico 107,550,697 1,677 64133
101 Chile 17,402,630 1,674 10396
102 Greece 11,257,285 1,573 7157
103 Peru 29,132,013 1,144 25465
104 Republic of Macedonia 2,048,620 1,130 1813
105 Indonesia 229,965,000 1,006 228593
106 Romania 19,042,936 1,005 18948
107 Vietnam 85,789,573 990 86656
108 Mozambique 22,894,000 824 27784
109 Lithuania 3,349,872 821 4080
110 Swaziland 1,185,000 759 1561
111 Morocco 31,567,613 736 42891
112 Bolivia 9,863,000 716 13775
113 United Arab Emirates 8,264,070 677 12207
114 Kazakhstan 15,776,492 616 25611
115 Saudi Arabia 25,721,000 599 42940
116 Belarus 9,671,900 595 16255
117 Dominican Republic 9,378,818 595 15763
118 Burkina Faso 15,757,000 546 28859
119 Slovakia 5,413,548 546 9915
120 Georgia [14] 4,385,400 462 9492
121 Portugal 10,627,250 408 26047
122 South Korea 48,333,000 401
(+27,518 North Korean refugees}[15] 120531
123 Cuba 11,204,000 384 29177
124 Kuwait 2,985,000 335 8910
125 Niger 15,290,000 302 50629
126 Colombia 45,064,807 219 205775
127 Uzbekistan 27,488,000 214 128449
128 Sri Lanka 20,238,000 188 107649
129 Uruguay 3,361,000 174 19316
130 Guatemala 14,027,000 147 95422
131 Moldova [16] 3,567,500 146 24435
132 Slovenia 2,045,249 142 14403
133 Philippines 92,222,660 125 737781
134 Paraguay 6,349,000 124 51202
135 Latvia 2,257,300 95 23761
136 Nicaragua 5,743,000 86 66779
137 Oman 2,845,000 83 34277
138 Albania 3,170,000 82 38659
139 Qatar 1,409,000 80 17613
140 Belize 322,100 78 4129
141 Cambodia 14,805,000 64 231328
142 Turkmenistan 5,110,000 59 86610
143 Iceland 319,246 58 5504
144 Estonia 1,340,415 50 26808
145 El Salvador 6,163,000 38 162184
146 Lesotho 2,067,000 34 60794
147 Bahamas 342,000 28 12214
148 Trinidad and Tobago 1,339,000 22 60864
149 Jamaica 2,719,000 20 135950
150 Honduras 7,466,000 17 439176
151 Madagascar 19,625,000 9 2180556
152 Fiji 849,000 7 121286
153 Guyana 762,000 7 108857
154 Mongolia 2,671,000 1 2671000
155 Myanmar (Burma) 50,020,000 unknown unknown
156 North Korea 24,051,706 unknown unknown
157 Taiwan[17] 23,069,345 unknown unknown
158 Haiti 10,033,000 unknown unknown
159 Hong Kong 7,008,900 unknown unknown
160 Laos 6,320,000 unknown unknown
161 Singapore 4,839,400 unknown unknown
162 Puerto Rico 3,982,000 unknown unknown
163 Mauritius [18]

[Livia]

Very interesting, truth.

[kirklancaster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population
refugee intake across the globe

the figures in Jordan and Lebanon are staggering
Ireland brazil spain Russia japan the arab emirates, mexico, north korea, west indies are doing almost sod all to help


Rank

Country / Territory

Total population

Refugee population[1]

Natives per refugee


— World 7,268,400,000 10,395,553 699
1 Pakistan 182,490,722 2,600,000[2] 70
2 Jordan 6,316,001 2,485,650[3] 3
3 Syria 21,906,000 1,254,634[3] 17
4 Iran 74,196,000 996,468 74
5 Germany 82,046,000 571,685 144
6 Kenya 39,802,000 650,610 [4] 70
7 Lebanon 4,224,000 1,172,753 [5] 4
8 Chad 11,206,000 366,494 31
9 People's Republic of China[6] 1,373,680,000 301,018 4563
10 Ethiopia 79,221,000 288,844 274
11 United States 321,766,000 763 1215
12 Bangladesh 162,221,000 229,669 706
13 Yemen 23,580,000 214,740 110
14 France [7] 65,073,482 210,207 310
15 Venezuela 28,456,383 202,022 141
16 United Kingdom 61,634,599 193,510 319
17 India 1,261,040,000 185,118 6812
18 Canada 33,476,688 164,883 203
19 Dem. Rep. of Congo 66,020,000 152,749 432
20 Republic of the Congo 3,683,000 141,232 26
21 Uganda 32,710,000 139,448 235
22 Sudan 30,894,000 139,415 222
23 Tanzania 43,739,000 131,243 333
24 Liberia 3,476,608 128,293 70
25 Ecuador 14,036,775 123,436 114
26 South Sudan 8,260,490 105,023 79
27 Cameroon 19,522,000 100,373 194
28 Egypt 77,116,112 95,087 811
29 Algeria 34,895,000 94,148 371
30 Thailand 63,389,730 89,253 710
31 Malaysia 27,468,000 86,680 317
32 Sweden 9,292,359 86,615 107
33 Netherlands 16,535,207 74,598 222
34 Nepal 29,331,000 72,654 404
35 Serbia 9,850,000 70,707 139
36 Italy 60,088,880 58,060 1035
37 South Africa 49,320,000 57,899 852
38 Rwanda 9,998,000 55,325 181
39 Switzerland 7,739,100 50,416 154
40 Austria 8,355,260 47,073 177
41 Zambia 12,935,000 45,632 283
42 Israel [8] 7,434,000 41,235 180
43 Norway [9] 4,834,000 40,691 119
44 Burundi 8,303,000 35,659 233
45 Iraq 30,747,000 35,189 874
46 Mauritania 3,291,000 26,535 124
47 Côte d'Ivoire 21,075,000 24,221 870
48 Australia[10] 24,162,000 23,434 1031
49 Belgium 10,754,528 22,402 480
50 Senegal 12,534,000 20,644 607
51 Djibouti 864,000 20,340 42
52 Costa Rica 4,579,000 20,057 228
53 Togo 6,619,000 19,270 343
54 Panama 3,454,000 17,262 200
55 Central African Republic 4,422,000 16,730 264
56 Guinea 10,069,000 16,609 606
57 Angola 18,498,000 16,223 1140
58 Poland 38,100,700 15,847 2404
59 Mali 13,010,000 15,624 833
60 Turkey 71,517,100 1,633,560[11] 44
61 Ghana 23,837,000 13,588 1754
62 Denmark 5,519,441 13,399 412
63 Montenegro 620,029 12,874 48
64 Libya 6,420,000 10,130 634
65 Gambia 1,705,000 9,528 179
66 Papua New Guinea 6,732,000 9,377 718
67 Finland [12] 5,343,608 9,175 582
68 Nigeria 154,729,000 8,806 17571
69 Ireland 4,422,100 8,249 536
70 Sierra Leone 5,696,000 8,092 704
71 Guinea-Bissau 1,611,000 7,800 207
72 Benin 8,935,000 7,217 1238
73 Bosnia and Herzegovina 3,767,000 6,933 543
74 Malawi 15,263,000 6,308 2420
75 Kyrgyzstan 5,482,000 6,095 899
76 Namibia 2,171,000 6,049 359
77 Bulgaria 7,364,570 5,688 1295
78 Hungary 10,031,208 5,106 1965
79 Eritrea 5,073,000 4,719 1075
80 Zimbabwe 12,523,000 4,561 2746
81 Brazil 202,448,000 4,477 45220
82 Spain 45,929,476 4,228 1086
83 Tunisia 10,327,800 4,097 2521
84 Russia 141,498,000 3,914 36152
85 Cyprus [13] 801,600 3,503 229
86 Argentina 40,134,425 3,361 11941
87 Botswana 1,950,000 3,312 589
88 Ukraine 46,029,281 3,176 14493
89 Afghanistan 28,150,000 3,009 9355
90 Tajikistan 6,952,000 3,009 2310
91 Armenia 3,230,100 2,918 1107
92 Luxembourg 493,500 2,855 173
93 Japan 127,590,000 2,649 48165
94 Croatia 4,435,056 2,600 1706
95 Czech Republic 10,467,542 2,449 4274
96 Somalia 9,133,000 2,099 4351
97 New Zealand 4,430,400 1,933 2291
98 Gabon 1,475,000 1,773 832
99 Azerbaijan 8,629,900 1,730 4988
100 Mexico 107,550,697 1,677 64133
101 Chile 17,402,630 1,674 10396
102 Greece 11,257,285 1,573 7157
103 Peru 29,132,013 1,144 25465
104 Republic of Macedonia 2,048,620 1,130 1813
105 Indonesia 229,965,000 1,006 228593
106 Romania 19,042,936 1,005 18948
107 Vietnam 85,789,573 990 86656
108 Mozambique 22,894,000 824 27784
109 Lithuania 3,349,872 821 4080
110 Swaziland 1,185,000 759 1561
111 Morocco 31,567,613 736 42891
112 Bolivia 9,863,000 716 13775
113 United Arab Emirates 8,264,070 677 12207
114 Kazakhstan 15,776,492 616 25611
115 Saudi Arabia 25,721,000 599 42940
116 Belarus 9,671,900 595 16255
117 Dominican Republic 9,378,818 595 15763
118 Burkina Faso 15,757,000 546 28859
119 Slovakia 5,413,548 546 9915
120 Georgia [14] 4,385,400 462 9492
121 Portugal 10,627,250 408 26047
122 South Korea 48,333,000 401
(+27,518 North Korean refugees}[15] 120531
123 Cuba 11,204,000 384 29177
124 Kuwait 2,985,000 335 8910
125 Niger 15,290,000 302 50629
126 Colombia 45,064,807 219 205775
127 Uzbekistan 27,488,000 214 128449
128 Sri Lanka 20,238,000 188 107649
129 Uruguay 3,361,000 174 19316
130 Guatemala 14,027,000 147 95422
131 Moldova [16] 3,567,500 146 24435
132 Slovenia 2,045,249 142 14403
133 Philippines 92,222,660 125 737781
134 Paraguay 6,349,000 124 51202
135 Latvia 2,257,300 95 23761
136 Nicaragua 5,743,000 86 66779
137 Oman 2,845,000 83 34277
138 Albania 3,170,000 82 38659
139 Qatar 1,409,000 80 17613
140 Belize 322,100 78 4129
141 Cambodia 14,805,000 64 231328
142 Turkmenistan 5,110,000 59 86610
143 Iceland 319,246 58 5504
144 Estonia 1,340,415 50 26808
145 El Salvador 6,163,000 38 162184
146 Lesotho 2,067,000 34 60794
147 Bahamas 342,000 28 12214
148 Trinidad and Tobago 1,339,000 22 60864
149 Jamaica 2,719,000 20 135950
150 Honduras 7,466,000 17 439176
151 Madagascar 19,625,000 9 2180556
152 Fiji 849,000 7 121286
153 Guyana 762,000 7 108857
154 Mongolia 2,671,000 1 2671000
155 Myanmar (Burma) 50,020,000 unknown unknown
156 North Korea 24,051,706 unknown unknown
157 Taiwan[17] 23,069,345 unknown unknown
158 Haiti 10,033,000 unknown unknown
159 Hong Kong 7,008,900 unknown unknown
160 Laos 6,320,000 unknown unknown
161 Singapore 4,839,400 unknown unknown
162 Puerto Rico 3,982,000 unknown unknown
163 Mauritius [18]

:laugh: Makes utter nonsense of some claims on here eh Truth?

As I said - Statistics NOT hysterics.

[Ninastar]

saw this on FB and I pretty much agree with it.

"The current migration crisis is so complicated at the moment that it is important to look at a range of points. It is a FACT that countries like Syria are war torn and currently inhabitable for the civilians. They are in the right to consider moving to another country for a better life. The problem is that an asylum seeker is meant to reside in the first safe country they visit. They in theory should have no reason to go West. However the starting countries like Greece and Turkey are ill equipped to deal with the sheer number of migrants arriving on their doorstep and therefore draws them to the more prosperous countries like Germany and the UK.

It is a FACT that our country is already being stretched economically by government cuts etc but we can deal with the crisis better than other countries. We should do whatever we can to help the genuine suffers of the crisis.

It is a FACT that some yes only want to come to the UK for benefits etc but an increasing number of migrants are in need of a better life. What the world actually NEEDS to do right now is to bring military action to Syria and eradicate ISIS and cease the holocaust like conditions Assad is using on its own people. This way the migrants would have NO reason to travel West. If we don't act fast it may led to more tragedies in the future."

[Tom4784]

saw this on FB and I pretty much agree with it.

"The current migration crisis is so complicated at the moment that it is important to look at a range of points. It is a FACT that countries like Syria are war torn and currently inhabitable for the civilians. They are in the right to consider moving to another country for a better life. The problem is that an asylum seeker is meant to reside in the first safe country they visit. They in theory should have no reason to go West. However the starting countries like Greece and Turkey are ill equipped to deal with the sheer number of migrants arriving on their doorstep and therefore draws them to the more prosperous countries like Germany and the UK.

It is a FACT that our country is already being stretched economically by government cuts etc but we can deal with the crisis better than other countries. We should do whatever we can to help the genuine suffers of the crisis.

It is a FACT that some yes only want to come to the UK for benefits etc but an increasing number of migrants are in need of a better life. What the world actually NEEDS to do right now is to bring military action to Syria and eradicate ISIS and cease the holocaust like conditions Assad is using on its own people. This way the migrants would have NO reason to travel West. If we don't act fast it may led to more tragedies in the future."

While I agree with the last paragraph in theory, in practice it's not so easy. Last time we interfered in the Middle East we basically set it up so IS gained real power. It's not so much an issue of removing IS and Assad and any other dictator from power, it's setting up a stable government afterwards that won't be swept aside with ease by terrorists. That's the hard part.

[Ninastar]

While I agree with the last paragraph in theory, in practice it's not so easy. Last time we interfered in the Middle East we basically set it up so IS gained real power. It's not so much an issue of removing IS and Assad and any other dictator from power, it's setting up a stable government afterwards that won't be swept aside with ease by terrorists. That's the hard part.

Thats why I personally believe we need to keep people there for as long as it will take. Even if we need to supervise for 50 years, it's better than having a war, ending it, people leaving, the tyrants getting strong again, war again etc etc. We need to keep people out there. Whether its armies, military bases, CIA etc etc, we have to keep it supervised.

[Kizzy]

Ah cite a wiki page and if it suits your agenda it's the truth?
Saying people are scared and that's why they're angry doesn't cut it for me sorry it's just an island mentality mixed with good old colonialist bigotry, time to stop dressing it up.

[Livia]

While I agree with the last paragraph in theory, in practice it's not so easy. Last time we interfered in the Middle East we basically set it up so IS gained real power. It's not so much an issue of removing IS and Assad and any other dictator from power, it's setting up a stable government afterwards that won't be swept aside with ease by terrorists. That's the hard part.

Ideally this should be the job of the UN. But while the UNHCR does its best, the rest of the organisation is chaotic and impotent.

[the truth]

the most charitable nations in the world PER HEAD are aussie and new Zealand, uk are 11th, usa are 9th and Russia are 143rd , china 151st

[lostalex]

Ideally this should be the job of the UN. But while the UNHCR does its best, the rest of the organisation is chaotic and impotent.

If the UN did it, it still wouldn't be fair because some nations contribute far more to the UN than others...

[user104658]

What about this for a good deal; every country in the world agrees to completely write off Greece's debt, no questions asked. We also all agree to give them money every year, a few billion each for the more prosperous countries, scaling down for ones with less money, but overall amounting to hundreds of billions per year.

In return, they take in the refugees, create towns and villages for them, etc...

Win win?

[Ammi]

What about this for a good deal; every country in the world agrees to completely write off Greece's debt, no questions asked. We also all agree to give them money every year, a few billion each for the more prosperous countries, scaling down for ones with less money, but overall amounting to hundreds of billions per year.

In return, they take in the refugees, create towns and villages for them, etc...

Win win?

...hmm, I don't know really because some may be going to specific countries or trying to because they have relatives there already..?..plus it feels a bit like they're being 'herded up' in one place...

[user104658]

...hmm, I don't know really because some may be going to specific countries or trying to because they have relatives there already..?..plus it feels a bit like they're being 'herded up' in one place...
But if we're playing devil's advocate and accepting that free movement for all people globally is impossible, and that refugees should settle in the first place that they are physically safe (until, hopefully, their country is restored and they can return home) then it makes sense to create a situation where one of those countries can comfortably take in all of those people, and where it may even be beneficial to them. With the condition that they can create accommodation and facilities for those people rather than just tents and shanty towns.

From there, those with family elsewhere in the world could go through the proper channels to apply for asylum in the country that their family is in... But in the meantime, they are safe and comfortable and not fearing for their or their families lives.

Greece would have to be insane to turn down such a deal at this point.

I'm not saying it's a realistic deal, it would obviously never happen,

[Ammi]

But if we're playing devil's advocate and accepting that free movement for all people globally is impossible, and that refugees should settle in the first place that they are physically safe (until, hopefully, their country is restored and they can return home) then it makes sense to create a situation where one of those countries can comfortably take in all of those people, and where it may even be beneficial to them. With the condition that they can create accommodation and facilities for those people rather than just tents and shanty towns.

From there, those with family elsewhere in the world could go through the proper channels to apply for asylum in the country that their family is in... But in the meantime, they are safe and comfortable and not fearing for their or their families lives.

Greece would have to be insane to turn down such a deal at this point.

I'm not saying it's a realistic deal, it would obviously never happen,

..you would probably have a better understanding of how these things could be worked out in terms of writing off the debt and added funding as I would have... but surely in homes to be built for so many migrants, jobs for them so a huge increase in new industry to be funded and also ensuring the Greek nationals have jobs as well so all would be fair etc...in what it would cost, then wouldn't all countries taking in themselves cost less and keep Greece's debt as a separate issue..?..there again, the time it would all take to work out to even a point to be agreed let alone implement is not going to solve anything for now and now is when help is needed, which is why it's a crisis...

[user104658]

..you would probably have a better understanding of how these things could be worked out in terms of writing off the debt and added funding as I would have... but surely in homes to be built for so many migrants, jobs for them so a huge increase in new industry to be funded and also ensuring the Greek nationals have jobs as well so all would be fair etc...in what it would cost, then wouldn't all countries taking in themselves cost less and keep Greece's debt as a separate issue..?..there again, the time it would all take to work out to even a point to be agreed let alone implement is not going to solve anything for now and now is when help is needed, which is why it's a crisis...
Yes it would cost less to allow the refugees to spread out, but in my opinion, the problem lies in (cynicism alert!) the fact that no one actually wants them. It's not actually about money, that's just the excuse. I fully believe that the British government and British people would happily pay more to keep them out of the country than they would to provide for them here... The fact is, people just don't want them "in their country, setting up tent in their back yard". Greece, on the other hand, has huge financial problems and so there would be a massive incentive to be subsidised to take them all in.

[kirklancaster]

What about this for a good deal; every country in the world agrees to completely write off Greece's debt, no questions asked. We also all agree to give them money every year, a few billion each for the more prosperous countries, scaling down for ones with less money, but overall amounting to hundreds of billions per year.

In return, they take in the refugees, create towns and villages for them, etc...

Win win?

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

I actually think this is a brilliant idea.

[Ammi]

Yes it would cost less to allow the refugees to spread out, but in my opinion, the problem lies in (cynicism alert!) the fact that no one actually wants them. It's not actually about money, that's just the excuse. I fully believe that the British government and British people would happily pay more to keep them out of the country than they would to provide for them here... The fact is, people just don't want them "in their country, setting up tent in their back yard". Greece, on the other hand, has huge financial problems and so there would be a massive incentive to be subsidised to take them all in.

..some people my not but some people are frustrated that it's all got to this point and do want them in the country..but with the people who may not want them, I do think their reasoning should be considered/respected as well because it does have good validity...

[Kizzy]

Look at the attitudinal shift from Germany to the UK on the refugee crisis, there they are welcomed as they escape the fighting...here it's 'oh here they are for benefits' it's embarrassing and depressing how ignorant we seem on the issue.
The conservative response is standard; misinformation, blatantly ignoring the issue until it gets too big then heavy handed tactics.

[kirklancaster]

Look at the attitudinal shift from Germany to the UK on the refugee crisis, there they are welcomed as they escape the fighting...here it's 'oh here they are for benefits' it's embarrassing and depressing how ignorant we seem on the issue.
The conservative response is standard; misinformation, blatantly ignoring the issue until it gets too big then heavy handed tactics.

MY aversion to letting these illegals - note illegals NOT genuine 'Refugees' - into this, already tiny, overpopulated, economically stretched island (and I'm sure that of others who oppose them) is purely down to the fact that the GREATER majority of them ARE opportunist, fit young men USING the current troubles as an excuse to gain entry into the UK.

NO ONE - on here, or anywhere else - is going to convince me that the above is NOT the true Status Quo.

If the situation in their native countries IS so untenable and dangerous for them to remain - how then is it that their mothers and sisters and grandmothers ALL continue living there?

I have seen and heard some of these young men freely talk on various documentaries about their families back home and even twice watched as two of them telephoned their mothers back home and had long normal conversations with them - and PLEASE don't harp on with the ridiculous claim that such program content is 'Media Manipulation' driven by bias against immigrants. What did the TV production companies do - hold a gun against these two 'refugees' heads and FORCE them to FAKE the phone conversations?.

Another 'would be' illegal immigrant on the program 'Breaking Into Britain' freely boasted that if the French Police entered the building they were all squatting in that; "They would be KILLED".

Stop these parasites entering and jail the Boat Skippers, Lorry Drivers and Masterminds behind illegally importing these opportunists for LIFE (or better still SHOOT the bastards) - then we can afford to give greater help to GENUINE refugees and welcome them in to the UK.

[lostalex]

What about this for a good deal; every country in the world agrees to completely write off Greece's debt, no questions asked. We also all agree to give them money every year, a few billion each for the more prosperous countries, scaling down for ones with less money, but overall amounting to hundreds of billions per year.

In return, they take in the refugees, create towns and villages for them, etc...

Win win?

or how about we just write off all countries debt, and anyone who ever trusted anyone enough to lend someone else money, can just go **** themselves. hey, lets just cancel all debts everywhere. not just countries, but al states, all cities, and all PEOPLE..

Let's just pretend like money never existed, and money means nothing and anyone that gave anything to anyone else, can just go **** themselves!

That sounds like a great idea. that way, no one ever helps anyone ever again, because when you give something to someone else and they promise to pay you back, we'll all just know that they will never pay it back and we can all just get screwed out of our money! Yay!

[Kizzy]

MY aversion to letting these illegals - note illegals NOT genuine 'Refugees' - into this, already tiny, overpopulated, economically stretched island (and I'm sure that of others who oppose them) is purely down to the fact that the GREATER majority of them ARE opportunist, fit young men USING the current troubles as an excuse to gain entry into the UK.

NO ONE - on here, or anywhere else - is going to convince me that the above is NOT the true Status Quo.

If the situation in their native countries IS so untenable and dangerous for them to remain - how then is it that their mothers and sisters and grandmothers ALL continue living there?

I have seen and heard some of these young men freely talk on various documentaries about their families back home and even twice watched as two of them telephoned their mothers back home and had long normal conversations with them - and PLEASE don't harp on with the ridiculous claim that such program content is 'Media Manipulation' driven by bias against immigrants. What did the TV production companies do - hold a gun against these two 'refugees' heads and FORCE them to FAKE the phone conversations?.

Another 'would be' illegal immigrant on the program 'Breaking Into Britain' freely boasted that if the French Police entered the building they were all squatting in that; "They would be KILLED".

Stop these parasites entering and jail the Boat Skippers, Lorry Drivers and Masterminds behind illegally importing these opportunists for LIFE (or better still SHOOT the bastards) - then we can afford to give greater help to GENUINE refugees and welcome them in to the UK.

Then our tiny overpopulated island should not be dropping bombs anywhere if we cannot give aid to those innocents displaced.
I see your aversion to the term refugee and it does appear to be a rather blinkered view due to the magnitude of conflict in the world at present.
Your shoot first ask questions later attitude does not surprise me at all, it appears to be endemic due to the confusing mish mash of information we have to decipher.

[kirklancaster]

Then our tiny overpopulated island should not be dropping bombs anywhere if we cannot give aid to those innocents displaced.
I see your aversion to the term refugee and it does appear to be a rather blinkered view due to the magnitude of conflict in the world at present.
Your shoot first ask questions later attitude does not surprise me at all, it appears to be endemic due to the confusing mish mash of information we have to decipher.

But no one is against giving aid to displaced innocents' - only 'opportunists' who voluntarily leave their countries and travel 'Westward Ho' in search of 'La Dolce Vita' - and surely, it is not only naive to claim that these countries were completely stable 'paradises' even before our involvement, but also the degree of culpability that we have for the current 'Status Quo' is highly contentious. .

[user104658]

or how about we just write off all countries debt, and anyone who ever trusted anyone enough to lend someone else money, can just go **** themselves. hey, lets just cancel all debts everywhere. not just countries, but al states, all cities, and all PEOPLE..

Let's just pretend like money never existed, and money means nothing and anyone that gave anything to anyone else, can just go **** themselves!

That sounds like a great idea. that way, no one ever helps anyone ever again, because when you give something to someone else and they promise to pay you back, we'll all just know that they will never pay it back and we can all just get screwed out of our money! Yay!
Writing off their debt would be in return for providing something though... It would basically be payment, not a handout. Currently, taking in refugees simply isn't an attractive prospect for any country. By incentivesing a safe country close to the problem zone to not only take in refugees, but to provide them with a good quality of life, it would surely lessen the problem?

[the truth]

Writing off their debt would be in return for providing something though... It would basically be payment, not a handout. Currently, taking in refugees simply isn't an attractive prospect for any country. By incentivesing a safe country close to the problem zone to not only take in refugees, but to provide them with a good quality of life, it would surely lessen the problem?

Russia? 17 million square miles twice the size of any other country and 70 times the size of the uk and 860 times the size of wales who have offered to take more refugees than russia

[user104658]

Russia? 17 million square miles twice the size of any other country and 70 times the size of the uk and 860 times the size of wales who have offered to take more refugees than russia
Russia and Muslims though.

[smudgie]

Aren't most of the refugees trying to escape the Assad regime, which is being propped up by Russia?

[Livia]

Aren't most of the refugees trying to escape the Assad regime, which is being propped up by Russia?

Get out of this thread smudgie, with your common sense and reason... you have no place here.

[smudgie]

Get out of this thread smudgie, with your common sense and reason... you have no place here.

:blush: To be honest, a lot of if goes straight over my muddled head.

[Livia]

:blush: To be honest, a lot of if goes straight over my muddled head.

Seems to me you have a very clear view of it!

[MTVN]

I'd say more civilians are fleeing IS than Assad in Syria, and just the war in general. There are no good sides in that conflict right now. Assad might be a dictator but Syria was still quite a sophisticated country before the war and many of those fleeing would once have had well paid jobs and good educations.

[joeysteele]

Then our tiny overpopulated island should not be dropping bombs anywhere if we cannot give aid to those innocents displaced.I see your aversion to the term refugee and it does appear to be a rather blinkered view due to the magnitude of conflict in the world at present.
Your shoot first ask questions later attitude does not surprise me at all, it appears to be endemic due to the confusing mish mash of information we have to decipher.

Absolutely and well said.

I am giving up on this thread because the more I read it the more disillusioned with some people as to this so called great nation of ours to be admired I become.

[Livia]

I'd say more civilians are fleeing IS than Assad in Syria, and just the war in general. There are no good sides in that conflict right now. Assad might be a dictator but Syria was still quite a sophisticated country before the war and many of those fleeing would once have had well paid jobs and good educations.

How true. What a bloody mess it is... and how terrifying for ordinary families and ordinary people. It really annoys me though when it turns out the biggest b*stards in the whole sad mess turn out to be the Brits! Well, according to some of the posts on here.

[Brother Leon]

saw this on FB and I pretty much agree with it.

"The current migration crisis is so complicated at the moment that it is important to look at a range of points. It is a FACT that countries like Syria are war torn and currently inhabitable for the civilians. They are in the right to consider moving to another country for a better life. The problem is that an asylum seeker is meant to reside in the first safe country they visit. They in theory should have no reason to go West. However the starting countries like Greece and Turkey are ill equipped to deal with the sheer number of migrants arriving on their doorstep and therefore draws them to the more prosperous countries like Germany and the UK.

It is a FACT that our country is already being stretched economically by government cuts etc but we can deal with the crisis better than other countries. We should do whatever we can to help the genuine suffers of the crisis.

It is a FACT that some yes only want to come to the UK for benefits etc but an increasing number of migrants are in need of a better life. What the world actually NEEDS to do right now is to bring military action to Syria and eradicate ISIS and cease the holocaust like conditions Assad is using on its own people. This way the migrants would have NO reason to travel West. If we don't act fast it may led to more tragedies in the future."

The last time we took Military Action to the Middle East, the Western World effectively created and trained groups like IS and Al Nusra under the guise of "Heroic Rebels". Not much good going to battle terrorists while creating others.

[Crimson Dynamo]

We should just take women and children

All men should be set back and when the war stopsstops a ll can be returned.

[the truth]

We should just take women and children

All men should be set back and when the war stopsstops a ll can be returned.

that's the most disgusting sexist trash ive ever read

[Kizzy]

How true. What a bloody mess it is... and how terrifying for ordinary families and ordinary people. It really annoys me though when it turns out the biggest b*stards in the whole sad mess turn out to be the Brits! Well, according to some of the posts on here.

By this you mean mine?... If you make a mess you have to help clean up, what did we think would happen that the Syrians would just stay there and die like good little foreigners?

[Ammi]

..some posts means some posts and opinions that feel the main blame lays with the British for this sad situation.. as there are indeed some/and quite a few posts where that view is upheld, really as stated I would think and nothing more...and nothing that Livia has posted or her opinion on this would equate in any way even remotely to... the Syrians can just stay there and die like good little foreigners ../kind of sounds a little like a 'trash media' term to me....

[JoshBB]

that's the most disgusting sexist trash ive ever read

For once I agree with you

[Ninastar]

The last time we took Military Action to the Middle East, the Western World effectively created and trained groups like IS and Al Nusra under the guise of "Heroic Rebels". Not much good going to battle terrorists while creating others.

to which I basically said

Thats why I personally believe we need to keep people there for as long as it will take. Even if we need to supervise for 50 years, it's better than having a war, ending it, people leaving, the tyrants getting strong again, war again etc etc. We need to keep people out there. Whether its armies, military bases, CIA etc etc, we have to keep it supervised.

[JoshBB]

to which I basically said

Yes we definitely need people out there looking after the citizens, possibly destroying weapons supplies, enforcing a banning of weapon sales to those countries or something of the sort.. I'm no military strategist.

But I disagree with bombings because there have been far too many civilian casualties that we cannot justify

[Ninastar]

Oh and within that idea/plan/thought/whatever I have above, I think we should also focus on rebuilding schools/hospitals/homes etc etc and ensure a happier/more peaceful living environment for the places which have been destroyed. We should ensure that people can go to school without being shot for being a different religion. We as a nation, should ensure that these people can live a normal life, without the young boys (and even some girls) being lured into terrorism. They should be given the right to have a proper education. And I believe that we as a nation can do that.

[Ninastar]

Yes we definitely need people out there looking after the citizens, possibly destroying weapons supplies, enforcing a banning of weapon sales to those countries or something of the sort.. I'm no military strategist.

But I disagree with bombings because there have been far too many civilian casualties that we cannot justify

I also disagree with bombings. I think we should have armies out there taking out the terrorists by hand or whatever. I don't agree with war, esp because innocent people die, but sometimes I think it's needed. I think having soldiers and the army etc out there, would have less innocent people killed than having bombs dropped out of the sky willy nilly.

[Kizzy]

..some posts means some posts and opinions that feel the main blame lays with the British for this sad situation.. as there are indeed some/and quite a few posts where that view is upheld, really as stated I would think and nothing more...and nothing that Livia has posted or her opinion on this would equate in any way even remotely to... the Syrians can just stay there and die like good little foreigners ../kind of sounds a little like a 'trash media' term to me....

Ok is this to me? I sound like 'trash media' that's strange because I was just thinking the same about some posts on this issue across the board today.
Us Brits can do no wrong atm eh? don't take refugees, bomb Syria, taking (some)refugees, bomb Syria, kicking refugees out at 18, ... it's all gravy.

[MTVN]

Any UK military activity in Syria has been minimal and all very recent. We might have contributed to the destabilisation of the region but it is hardly as if Syria would be a haven without us or that there would be no civil war.

[Kizzy]

Any UK military activity in Syria has been minimal and all very recent. We might have contributed to the destabilisation of the region but it is hardly as if Syria would be a haven without us or that there would be no civil war.

That's beside the point, it's like starting a fire in Hull and saying 'oh well it's a ****hole anyway'.

[MTVN]

That's beside the point, it's like starting a fire in Hull and saying 'oh well it's a ****hole anyway'.

It's not besides the point because you keep implying that the entire Syrian crisis has its origin in UK foreign policy ('we made the mess', 'we started the fire' etc.): it does not.

[Livia]

Any UK military activity in Syria has been minimal and all very recent. We might have contributed to the destabilisation of the region but it is hardly as if Syria would be a haven without us or that there would be no civil war.

That's true. And although we (and by "we" I mean the coalition of countries who participated) have contributed to the destabilisation, the countries of the Middle East are hardly blameless.

[Kizzy]

It's not besides the point because you keep implying that the entire Syrian crisis has its origin in UK foreign policy ('we made the mess', 'we started the fire' etc.): it does not.

The entire crisis?..No I haven't implied that, 'we' by our questionable actions have a degree of culpability. The refugee issue will worsen very soon, as we are 'informed' ( after the fact) about targeted attacks being carried out.

[kirklancaster]

That's true. And although we (and by "we" I mean the coalition of countries who participated) have contributed to the destabilisation, the countries of the Middle East are hardly blameless.

Exactly what I was saying earlier:

But no one is against giving aid to displaced innocents' - only 'opportunists' who voluntarily leave their countries and travel 'Westward Ho' in search of 'La Dolce Vita' - and surely, it is not only naive to claim that these countries were completely stable 'paradises' even before our involvement, but also the degree of culpability that we have for the current 'Status Quo' is highly contentious.

[Kizzy]

Exactly what I was saying earlier:

But no one is against giving aid to displaced innocents' - only 'opportunists' who voluntarily leave their countries and travel 'Westward Ho' in search of 'La Dolce Vita' - and surely, it is not only naive to claim that these countries were completely stable 'paradises' even before our involvement, but also the degree of culpability that we have for the current 'Status Quo' is highly contentious.

Have you just rehashed this post from earlier? I have 'de ja vue'.

We can perform possibly illegal targeted drone strikes because Syria isn't a 'paradise'?

[kirklancaster]

Have you just rehashed this post from earlier? I have 'de ja vue'.

We can perform possibly illegal targeted drone strikes because Syria isn't a 'paradise'?

Yes, it is a re-hash, but no, I did not mean that Syria not being a paradise is justification for us bombing it.

To save me explaining, I will paste MTVN's excellent and truthful comments:

"Any UK military activity in Syria has been minimal and all very recent. We might have contributed to the destabilisation of the region but it is hardly as if Syria would be a haven without us or that there would be no civil war."

[Livia]

Yes, it is a re-hash, but no, I did not mean that Syria not being a paradise is justification for us bombing it.

To save me explaining, I will paste MTVN's excellent and truthful comments:

"Any UK military activity in Syria has been minimal and all very recent. We might have contributed to the destabilisation of the region but it is hardly as if Syria would be a haven without us or that there would be no civil war."



Didn't you actually say at the start of your post that you'd said the same thing earlier? It was quite clear.

MTVN's posts is excellent... very concise. And there have been no illegal strikes by us at Syria... as you probably know.

[user104658]

Wow. The last two pages of this thread only confirm that most people clearly have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about when I say that Britain has fingerprints all over this...

I'm not talking about some specific "involvement" that Britain has had, some military action that can be pointed to, "British foreign policy" or any of that... stuff.

I'm talking about the very fabric of the way the world has developed over the last several hundred years. Did we put Assad in power? No. Was the British Empire - which you may say is "now over", but upon which our entire wealth and comfortable way of life is founded - a huge part of the formation of the political situations in these countries? Yes. Absolutely.

Have we continued to use that power and influence and been complicit in the massively uneven distribution of wealth and global resources that is the root of pretty much every issue in the Middle East and Africa? Mmmmm... that would be a "yup", also.

Is it just Britain? No, of course not, plenty of others have benefitted their own citizens by raping the **** out of the rest of the world. Some may even feel like that's justified - "survival of the fittest" and all that - but what utterly baffles me is that people want to pretend like it didn't happen. Like our cosy homes aren't built on the backs of billions of the world's poorest. And that the things that are happening now aren't in any way related to that. It's just so, so blinkered.

We aren't the worst country in the world, not by a million miles. It's a good place to live. Many of the people are good, and enlightened, and kind. That's why people keep trying to get in. OBVIOUSLY living under the Assad regime would be worse. That's not the point or even close to it.

[the truth]

Britain or rather the monarchy and the elite brits have been heavily involved in almost every human tragedy the world has ever seen....most wars were started by the monarchy. the monarchy represent nothing but evil, period

hitler even got some of the idea for the horrific holocausts from the britsish concentration camps in africa....and what about the irish potatoe famine or even the indian famines as recently as 70 years ago

The Bengal Famine of 1943-44 must rank as the greatest disaster in the subcontinent in the 20th century. Nearly 4 million Indians died because of an artificial famine created by the British government, and yet it gets little more than a passing mention in Indian history books.

and while we are being real, we are not GREAT Britain , the word great is a geographical term not an adjective. the british empire was a disgrace, it was a bunch of greedy crooks exploiting the genius of the british workers and industrialists for their own filthy ill gotten gains. just look at the titanic. then world war 1? tens of millions died across the world, over a million brits dying in a mud bath for nothing for rich bastards...thank God for Lloyd George, the world greatest ever working class hero.

it wasn't 100% evil, we left some democracies sort of, we built some institutions, we pushed forward scientifically, but our cruelty and greed was unforgivable

[Ammi]

Wow. The last two pages of this thread only confirm that most people clearly have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about when I say that Britain has fingerprints all over this...

I'm not talking about some specific "involvement" that Britain has had, some military action that can be pointed to, "British foreign policy" or any of that... stuff.

I'm talking about the very fabric of the way the world has developed over the last several hundred years. Did we put Assad in power? No. Was the British Empire - which you may say is "now over", but upon which our entire wealth and comfortable way of life is founded - a huge part of the formation of the political situations in these countries? Yes. Absolutely.

Have we continued to use that power and influence and been complicit in the massively uneven distribution of wealth and global resources that is the root of pretty much every issue in the Middle East and Africa? Mmmmm... that would be a "yup", also.

Is it just Britain? No, of course not, plenty of others have benefitted their own citizens by raping the **** out of the rest of the world. Some may even feel like that's justified - "survival of the fittest" and all that - but what utterly baffles me is that people want to pretend like it didn't happen. Like our cosy homes aren't built on the backs of billions of the world's poorest. And that the things that are happening now aren't in any way related to that. It's just so, so blinkered.

We aren't the worst country in the world, not by a million miles. It's a good place to live. Many of the people are good, and enlightened, and kind. That's why people keep trying to get in. OBVIOUSLY living under the Assad regime would be worse. That's not the point or even close to it.



..I think though that the point to be focused on is the here and no and not how the here and now was got to because that won't change anything..?..I guess it's like, for us in out lives as individuals when we find ourselves in a place and may think ..oh if only/was that a right decision, a wrong one etc...but no amount of reflection will change anything..?...so its more about the now..(for me..)..and the moving forward from that/and how things can be 'put right'..and how we as a country can contribute toward that..this is a humanity issue/a world issue and every country needs to help, finger pointing blame does not give the migrants what they need and is no use to them at all....yes, the how did we get here also has some importance obviously to learn from things etc..and maybe not to do again..but I doubt that anything will be learned ..(by any country..)...enough for the world ever to be right, well that just won't ever happen will it...

[user104658]

..I think though that the point to be focused on is the here and no and not how the here and now was got to because that won't change anything..?..I guess it's like, for us in out lives as individuals when we find ourselves in a place and may think ..oh if only/was that a right decision, a wrong one etc...but no amount of reflection will change anything..?...so its more about the now..(for me..)..and the moving forward from that/and how things can be 'put right'..and how we as a country can contribute toward that..this is a humanity issue/a world issue and every country needs to help, finger pointing blame does not give the migrants what they need and is no use to them at all....yes, the how did we get here also has some importance obviously to learn from things etc..and maybe not to do again..but I doubt that anything will be learned ..(by any country..)...enough for the world ever to be right, well that just won't ever happen will it...

The point is, though, that so many British people are rejecting the idea of taking in refugees / are vilifying refugees / would like to take the stance that it's not our fault and not our problem. It's wrong. In both senses of the word. It's morally wrong, and it's factually incorrect.

If more people were aware and accepting of that then maybe (probably not, but maybe) more people would be willing to see us help, spending more, doing more. Maybe if they realised that we do actually have a responsibility here, they would be more willing to stand up and let our government know that Britain should be doing more. Using more of our stolen wealth to help.

That said, when has the government ever listened to anything the citizens have to say? Especially this one. And if they're willing to trample on the backs of our own working poor then I guess expecting them to give a stuff about Johnny Foreigner is a stretch. So maybe it is pointless.

[Kizzy]

Didn't you actually say at the start of your post that you'd said the same thing earlier? It was quite clear.

MTVN's posts is excellent... very concise. And there have been no illegal strikes by us at Syria... as you probably know.

Cameron, who had said that he would seek parliament’s approval before extending any British military action against Isis targets from Iraq to Syria, said he had acted in line with his commitments. He reserved the right to authorise strikes without a vote in the event of an emergency.

'However Jeremy Corbyn said: “I have questioned the legal basis for the use of drones. Urgent consideration now needs to be given to the appropriate process by which attacks such as this one are sanctioned, on what evidence and on what basis of law.”

Corbyn also said he was writing to the prime minister over his failure to accept his call for an international summit to address the Syrian refugee crisis. He said: “Further to the prime minister’s inadequate response in the chamber ... I am now writing to offer the prime minister the opportunity to explain his inadequate response to my request for an urgent summit involving the UN, [European Union] and the US on Syria and the refugee crisis.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/david-cameron-justifies-drone-strikes-in-syria-against-britons-fighting-for-isis

[Kizzy]

..I think though that the point to be focused on is the here and no and not how the here and now was got to because that won't change anything..?..I guess it's like, for us in out lives as individuals when we find ourselves in a place and may think ..oh if only/was that a right decision, a wrong one etc...but no amount of reflection will change anything..?...so its more about the now..(for me..)..and the moving forward from that/and how things can be 'put right'..and how we as a country can contribute toward that..this is a humanity issue/a world issue and every country needs to help, finger pointing blame does not give the migrants what they need and is no use to them at all....yes, the how did we get here also has some importance obviously to learn from things etc..and maybe not to do again..but I doubt that anything will be learned ..(by any country..)...enough for the world ever to be right, well that just won't ever happen will it...

Why won't it, is it our legacy to pass on our ignorance to our children,
maybe no amount of reflection will change anything but if every generation accepts the will of Britain is strongest therefore we justify whatever we did/do as the 'greater good', but is it really... If you look at it objectively putting aside national pride has every decision we made been the right one?

[Livia]

Corbyn... LOL... Corbyn who pointedly turned his back on our troops returning after being in action? Corbyn the apologist? Don't make me laugh...

[joeysteele]

Wow. The last two pages of this thread only confirm that most people clearly have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about when I say that Britain has fingerprints all over this...

I'm not talking about some specific "involvement" that Britain has had, some military action that can be pointed to, "British foreign policy" or any of that... stuff.

I'm talking about the very fabric of the way the world has developed over the last several hundred years. Did we put Assad in power? No. Was the British Empire - which you may say is "now over", but upon which our entire wealth and comfortable way of life is founded - a huge part of the formation of the political situations in these countries? Yes. Absolutely.

Have we continued to use that power and influence and been complicit in the massively uneven distribution of wealth and global resources that is the root of pretty much every issue in the Middle East and Africa? Mmmmm... that would be a "yup", also.

Is it just Britain? No, of course not, plenty of others have benefitted their own citizens by raping the **** out of the rest of the world. Some may even feel like that's justified - "survival of the fittest" and all that - but what utterly baffles me is that people want to pretend like it didn't happen. Like our cosy homes aren't built on the backs of billions of the world's poorest. And that the things that are happening now aren't in any way related to that. It's just so, so blinkered.

We aren't the worst country in the world, not by a million miles. It's a good place to live. Many of the people are good, and enlightened, and kind. That's why people keep trying to get in. OBVIOUSLY living under the Assad regime would be worse. That's not the point or even close to it.

I am saying no more as to this as I am truly stunned and disillusioned as to it.
However,I do have to say, your post above is brilliant and so I commend you for it,really well said.

[Kizzy]

Corbyn... LOL... Corbyn who pointedly turned his back on our troops returning after being in action? Corbyn the apologist? Don't make me laugh...

Do you have a point to make about Mr Corbyns stance here?

[Livia]

Do you have a point to make about Mr Corbyns stance here?

Did you have a point? Or are you just doing cut and paste today?

Corbyn's stance is neither here nor there. He's a bit of a joke. Hope he gets elected though. It'll make Labour more unelectable than ever before!

[lostalex]

this is why the UK system is so weird. people don't elect people, they elect parties. garden brown was never elected by the people to be PM, but he was PM for many years...

It just doesn't seem very democratic to me.

Every elected official should be an individual and vote however they like.

In the US, many Democrats are against abortion, or pro gun rights, they don't have to stick to the party. And they can be elected to president by the people, they don't have to be elected by just the party elite.

[user104658]

this is why the UK system is so weird. people don't elect people, they elect parties. garden brown was never elected by the people to be PM, but he was PM for many years...

It just doesn't seem very democratic to me.

Every elected official should be an individual and vote however they like.

In the US, many Democrats are against abortion, or pro gun rights, they don't have to stick to the party. And they can be elected to president by the people, they don't have to be elected by just the party elite.

Weeellll... Brown was only PM for 3 years, and that was after the resignation of Blair. I'm sure similar can happen in the US, unless "House of Cards" has been lying to me?? (Isn't the whole point that Kevin Spacey knows he won't be elected President, so he gets there through political manipulation instead...)

It's supposed to be that people elect a party here, choosing a representative in their local area and then the party with the majority of MPs getting into power and the party leader then being PM by default. However, I would say that since Thatcher, the elections have actually "unofficially" been very presidential and quite similar to US elections. For example, the one this year was very much about Cameron and Miliband, even in the press, and Miliband is probably the major reason for the Tory victory when it comes down to it. Also, as other examples, UKIP was all about Farage and the SNP in Scotland has been all about Alex Salmond and now Nicola Sturgeon.

The ballot papers may SAY that you're voting for your local candidate but... Most people are really voting for the leadership.

[lostalex]

Weeellll... Brown was only PM for 3 years, and that was after the resignation of Blair. I'm sure similar can happen in the US, unless "House of Cards" has been lying to me?? (Isn't the whole point that Kevin Spacey knows he won't be elected President, so he gets there through political manipulation instead...)

It's supposed to be that people elect a party here, choosing a representative in their local area and then the party with the majority of MPs getting into power and the party leader then being PM by default. However, I would say that since Thatcher, the elections have actually "unofficially" been very presidential and quite similar to US elections. For example, the one this year was very much about Cameron and Miliband, even in the press, and Miliband is probably the major reason for the Tory victory when it comes down to it. Also, as other examples, UKIP was all about Farage and the SNP in Scotland has been all about Alex Salmond and now Nicola Sturgeon.

The ballot papers may SAY that you're voting for your local candidate but... Most people are really voting for the leadership.

No US president has ever stepped down just to give the position to his vice president. they have been forced out or assassinated, but nothing like the way british PM's step down to give power to a new party PM. The democratic party cannot vote Barack obama step down to give it to Joe biden. It's totally different.

And house of cards is pure crazy sic-fi level fiction.

[Ashley.]

I'm quite indifferent, if not undecided about where I stand. On the one hand, I love helping people, I get a feel-good feeling whenever I give change to a beggar and I'm quick to defend people who are victims of racism and homophobia, however on the other hand, it's annoying. Who are these people? Why are we letting in 20,000 willy nilly? Will they do harm to our country?

Is there a possibility that at least one of these 20,000 is an ISIS member, a terrorist or a wrong'un, wanting no more than to cause harm to our countries out of pure jealousy? Will British lives be lost if we keep letting them in? How could we possibly know? The answer is no, we don't know anything. We're taking a complete gamble here. Is it our job to help Syria? Not at all. We can put up the borders and send them back to wherever it was they came from, but they know we won't do that, because we're British, and god only knows that Syria will take advantage of this.

Britain is running on a very tight rope right now. Parliament need to think carefully about what they do next because if they make the smallest mistake, then they are going to be taking us down with them.

[JoshBB]

It's not willy-nilly, and 20 thousand is not even that many people in proportion to the amount of people who live here. I view it as a moral obligation to accept those fleeing war, especially those who are fleeing war which we have have exasperated.

[Cherie]

I'm quite indifferent, if not undecided about where I stand. On the one hand, I love helping people, I get a feel-good feeling whenever I give change to a beggar and I'm quick to defend people who are victims of racism and homophobia, however on the other hand, it's annoying. Who are these people? Why are we letting in 20,000 willy nilly? Will they do harm to our country?

Is there a possibility that at least one of these 20,000 is an ISIS member, a terrorist or a wrong'un, wanting no more than to cause harm to our countries out of pure jealousy? Will British lives be lost if we keep letting them in? How could we possibly know? The answer is no, we don't know anything. We're taking a complete gamble here. Is it our job to help Syria? Not at all. We can put up the borders and send them back to wherever it was they came from, but they know we won't do that, because we're British. We're awkward, we help people who may not always return the favour, we fall hard for those who we love and we hit the ground that little harder, and god only knows that Syria will take advantage of this.

Britain is running on a very tight rope right now. Parliament need to think carefully about what they do next because if they make the smallest mistake, then they are going to be taking us down with them.


Its not willy nilly they are being taken from refugee camps and will have their paperwork, Willy nilly is when they cross open borders with no vetting as has happened in Germany

[Ashley.]

Its not willy nilly they are being taken from refugee camps and will have their paperwork, Willy nilly is when they cross open borders with no vetting as has happened in Germany

How would we know that these people who have been put into these refugee camps are safe? How would we know? :shrug:

[JoshBB]

Its not willy nilly they are being taken from refugee camps and will have their paperwork, Willy nilly is when they cross open borders with no vetting as has happened in Germany

I don't think Germany's approach could be described like that. As far as I know, people are still being background checked to ensure there are no threats to security, which is obviously the right thing to do.

Willy-Nilly would be to say "accept every single person who wants to come here" and letting in millions in one go, which I agree would be terrible for the refugees and the people who live here.

[Ashley.]

It's not willy-nilly, and 20 thousand is not even that many people in proportion to the amount of people who live here. I view it as a moral obligation to accept those fleeing war, especially those who are fleeing war which we have have exasperated.

I agree, 20,000 people from Syria is tiny. But 20,000 people from the UK is a much larger percentage. David Cameron has already cut half the country off including people who work in the Emergency Services such as my father, how on earth would we be able to handle 20,000 more people to distribute money to?

[Cherie]

I don't think Germany's approach could be described like that. As far as I know, people are still being background checked to ensure there are no threats to security, which is obviously the right thing to do.

Willy-Nilly would be to say "accept every single person who wants to come here" and letting in millions in one go, which I agree would be terrible for the refugees and the people who live here.

Basically that is what Germany said, they would open their borders to all, they have changed their tune

[JoshBB]

I agree, 20,000 people from Syria is tiny. But 20,000 people from the UK is a much larger percentage. David Cameron has already cut half the country off including people who work in the Emergency Services such as my father, how on earth would we be able to handle 20,000 more people to distribute money to?

Don't be fooled.

He has been pursuing his agenda of neoliberalism, and enforcing harsh cuts to journey our country to that path. That includes cuts to the NHS (including 66% to social care I believe the figure was), housing, and other public services.

It is sooo much easier for him to blame migrants than to sort this out, he doesn't want to acknowledge that cutting services brings them to breaking point so he is pointing fingers. Running scared. Not only that but austerity hinders growth.

Went a bit off-topic but I hope this made sense for you

[Kizzy]

There is already a few threads on this, I seem to be saying the same thing across a few different pages.

[JoshBB]

There is already a few threads on this, I seem to be saying the same thing across a few different pages.

Yes and I think you have the most ethical and logical solutions. #Kizzy4PM :laugh:

[Ashley.]

There is already a few threads on this, I seem to be saying the same thing across a few different pages.

Oh, I looked and didn't find any.

[Cherie]

How would we know that these people who have been put into these refugee camps are safe? How would we know? :shrug:

People camps have been processed and have paperwork and are genuinely fleeing a warzone, that said nothing is 100 per cent but it is a far safer way to take refugees , we are probably in a lot more danger from homegrown terrorists

[JoshBB]

People camps have been processed and have paperwork and are genuinely fleeing a warzone, that said nothing is 100 per cent but it is a far safer way to take refugees , we are probably in a lot more danger from homegrown terrorists

The only issue I have with that, is that we also need to be taking some from Europe. Perhaps take 20,000 from the camps and another 20,000 from those who have arrived.

If we only take from the camps then it doesn't solve the issue of tons of displaced migrants in Europe, and we're leaving countries like Germany or France to deal with it when we should be helping out.

[Ashley.]

People camps have been processed and have paperwork and are genuinely fleeing a warzone, that said nothing is 100 per cent but it is a far safer way to take refugees , we are probably in a lot more danger from homegrown terrorists

Maybe I'm just worrying too much then? :shrug:

[JoshBB]

Maybe I'm just worrying too much then? :shrug:

Yes and it's unsurprising considering the amount of anti-immigration scaremongering we are receiving from the media, mostly the right-wing press owned by Murdoch.

[Kizzy]

Oh, I looked and didn't find any.

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275716

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288357

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287568

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287962

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287755

[Cherie]

Maybe I'm just worrying too much then? :shrug:

I think everyone is concerned as to how all this will play out, solutions need to be found so that people can return to their own countries, giving people asylum is all well and good but its not a long term solution

[Ashley.]

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275716

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288357

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287568

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287962

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287755

Those are just news articles? :shrug: This is a debate thread.

[Ashley.]

I think everyone is concerned as to how all this will play out, solutions need to be found so that people can return to their own countries, giving people asylum is all well and good but its not a long term solution

100%!

[Kizzy]

Those are just news articles? :shrug: This is a debate thread.

What are you current views on the "Immigration crisis"??

How is this any different to yours?
Mine isn't just an article either there are weeks worth of debates on this topic :/

[JoshBB]

I think everyone is concerned as to how all this will play out, solutions need to be found so that people can return to their own countries, giving people asylum is all well and good but its not a long term solution

I think it would seem quite unfair though to allow these people here for a few years then just send them back

[Dollface]

I think it would seem quite unfair though to allow these people here for a few years then just send them back

Hopefully by then things would have settled down in Syria. I just don't know how this country is going to fund 20,000 refugees when there is already so many people here that are struggling financially.

[Liam-]

I think we're letting emotions take control and we as a country aren't thinking logically in this situation, we're just barely coming out of a double dip recession, benefits are being cut, public services are being cut all because we want to save money, yet we're going to be allowing thousands upon thousands of people in, I don't see how it's going to work, it's never going to work as a permanent thing, so I think deporting them when things die down in Syria or when they turn 18 like planned is a good thing.

[Johnnyuk123]

I'm quite indifferent, if not undecided about where I stand. On the one hand, I love helping people, I get a feel-good feeling whenever I give change to a beggar and I'm quick to defend people who are victims of racism and homophobia, however on the other hand, it's annoying. Who are these people? Why are we letting in 20,000 willy nilly? Will they do harm to our country?

Is there a possibility that at least one of these 20,000 is an ISIS member, a terrorist or a wrong'un, wanting no more than to cause harm to our countries out of pure jealousy? Will British lives be lost if we keep letting them in? How could we possibly know? The answer is no, we don't know anything. We're taking a complete gamble here. Is it our job to help Syria? Not at all. We can put up the borders and send them back to wherever it was they came from, but they know we won't do that, because we're British, and god only knows that Syria will take advantage of this.

Britain is running on a very tight rope right now. Parliament need to think carefully about what they do next because if they make the smallest mistake, then they are going to be taking us down with them.

If UK people fled this country how many would Syria take in? I rest my case.

[Kizzy]

If UK people fled this country how many would Syria take in? I rest my case.

What case?...

[MTVN]

I think we're letting emotions take control and we as a country aren't thinking logically in this situation, we're just barely coming out of a double dip recession, benefits are being cut, public services are being cut all because we want to save money, yet we're going to be allowing thousands upon thousands of people in, I don't see how it's going to work, it's never going to work as a permanent thing, so I think deporting them when things die down in Syria or when they turn 18 like planned is a good thing.

Accepting 20,000 people would be negligible cost in the grand scheme of things though. The cuts are not just about saving money but also ensuring that the money the government does spend is well allocated and this is a worthy cause imo. In fact it's already budgeted for really because the foreign aid budget is going to be used to support the intake.

I also don't see why it can't work as a permanent thing? People seem to have the impression that Syrians are good for nothings who will need to be propped up by the taxpayer their whole lives. In fact many of them are well educated, well-spoken and would have had solid professions in their home countries before the war. These are teachers, engineers, students etc. who have had a once normal existence completely destroyed.

[Beso]

I will make my mind up when we get the truth and full facts about how and why im not holding my breath.

[Ninastar]

My view is that yes its sad and awful that these people are dying whilst trying to get to the EU, but we also have to think about what happens if we do allow them to come here. I want to help them as much as anyone but it's such a sticky situation. If we do help, more will risk their lives coming here, which would lead to more deaths... But if we could offer the safety of them staying here and keep doing checks, it wouldn't be the end of the world. We can't take too many as we already have enough people struggling here. But my bet is that these refugees would be happy staying literally anywhere.

We also have the concerns of people who aren't actually 'refugees' entering the UK. I don't doubt for a second that people will use this as an excuse to sneak into the UK and try and convert people to 'extremism' or whatever. but again, if a close eye is kept then it shouldnt be too much of an issue.

However, my main belief is that rather than us saving all these refugees, why don't we look at who is causing the problems, why these people are being killed and if there is anything we can do to stop them. We could save every single refugee right now, but tomorrow, there will be just as many more. We have to look at why this is happening if we really want to help.

This is basically my opinion from 10 days ago, and this was before I even heard about that report from ISIS back in Feb, where they said they were going to send in 50,000 of their soldiers or whatever. Whatever we do, we just need to be careful. If we let people in, we have to watch them 24/7... We have no idea who most of these people are. They could be anyone. I wouldn't turn my back on someone who needed help, but when ISIS are involved, you can never be too careful.

[kirklancaster]

Accepting 20,000 people would be negligible cost in the grand scheme of things though. The cuts are not just about saving money but also ensuring that the money the government does spend is well allocated and this is a worthy cause imo. In fact it's already budgeted for really because the foreign aid budget is going to be used to support the intake.

I also don't see why it can't work as a permanent thing? People seem to have the impression that Syrians are good for nothings who will need to be propped up by the taxpayer their whole lives. In fact many of them are well educated, well-spoken and would have had solid professions in their home countries before the war. These are teachers, engineers, students etc. who have had a once normal existence completely destroyed.

A lot of Syrians definitely ARE "well educated, well-spoken and would have had solid professions in their home countries before the war" and more to the point ARE GENUINE refugees, unlike the millions of immigrants already resident here courtesy of our ludicrous EU membership and previously lax Immigration Control - most of whom are employed in organized crime, car washing, or on benefits.

Oh - and another excellent post MTVN.

[Kizzy]

A wise man once said ''If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people.”

[kirklancaster]

A wise man once said ''If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people.”

It is the year 2021, and now we cannot find that 'wise man' because he is lost among the 145 million people within the UK, or probably been beheaded by one of the Great Caliph of The UK's troops. :hehe:

[Kizzy]

It is the year 2021, and now we cannot find that 'wise man' because he is lost among the 145 million people within the UK, or probably been beheaded by one of the Great Caliph of The UK's troops. :hehe:

Hmmm they have done a number on you and no mistake, fear factor 1000 :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Hmmm they have done a number on you and no mistake, fear factor 1000 :hehe:

:laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

Some days ago I signed the 'accept more asylum seekers' on a parliamentary petition. At the time, this particular petition had 419, 678 signatures. The 'stop more asylum seekers' petition, in contrast, had attracted 41, 897 signatures, so the 'stop' petition was out-numbered by the 'allow' petition by a ratio of almost 10:1.

All petitions on the UK Government and Parliament website can only be voted on once, and only by British citizens and UK residents.

It seems that the majority of the British public strongly disagree with some of the comments written on here :)

Toy-soldier, Kizzy and JoshBB's, I've read all your posts on this thread and commend all three of you for sticking it out in such a small minority group. Its comforting to understand that most of us Brits think like you do :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Some days ago I signed the 'accept more asylum seekers' on a parliamentary petition. At the time, this particular petition had 419, 678 signatures. The 'stop more asylum seekers' petition, in contrast, had attracted 41, 897 signatures, so the 'stop' petition was out-numbered by the 'allow' petition by a ratio of almost 10:1.

All petitions on the UK Government and Parliament website can only be voted on once, and only by British citizens and UK residents.

It seems that the majority of the British public strongly disagree with some of the comments written on here :)

Toy-soldier, Kizzy and JoshBB's, I've read all your posts on this thread and commend all three of you for sticking it out in such a small minority group. Its comforting to understand that most of us Brits think like you do :laugh:

And will you be prepared to put up these additional asylum seekers on your yacht, in your English home, or in your home abroad?

[DemolitionRed]

And will you be prepared to put up these additional asylum seekers on your yacht, in your English home, or in your home abroad?

Absolutely :laugh:

But just in case you think I'm some posh tart, I should mention that we live on our boat and don't have a house in the UK. Whilst we might have sails, she's an old jalopy of a girl who could do with a facelift. Our French place is a small house that was left to me by my grandmother but its on top of a mountain. They would be welcome to use it, though they would only have a log fire for warmth and a well for water.

[kirklancaster]

Absolutely :laugh:

But just in case you think I'm some posh tart, I should mention that we live on our boat and don't have a house in the UK. Whilst we might have sails, she's an old jalopy of a girl who could do with a facelift. Our French place is a small house that was left to me by my grandmother but its on top of a mountain. They would be welcome to use it, though they would only have a log fire for warmth and a well for water.

I'll use it - They can live in my house. :laugh:

Oh - and you have my sincere respect Red because I have posed this question to several pro-immigrant Tibbies and you are the very first to actually answer.

[DemolitionRed]

I'll use it - They can live in my house. :laugh:

Oh - and you have my sincere respect Red because I have posed this question to several pro-immigrant Tibbies and you are the very first to actually answer.

Thanks!

Looks like a decent swap but I have to ask, are you a high wall climber, ice climber or skier? because other than that all you can do up there in the mountains is yodel :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Thanks!

Looks like a decent swap but I have to ask, are you a high wall climber, ice climber or skier? because other than that all you can do up there in the mountains is yodel :hehe:

I'm none now Red, but I think I could handle the solitude and perhaps finally finish my book.

[Kizzy]

Some days ago I signed the 'accept more asylum seekers' on a parliamentary petition. At the time, this particular petition had 419, 678 signatures. The 'stop more asylum seekers' petition, in contrast, had attracted 41, 897 signatures, so the 'stop' petition was out-numbered by the 'allow' petition by a ratio of almost 10:1.

All petitions on the UK Government and Parliament website can only be voted on once, and only by British citizens and UK residents.

It seems that the majority of the British public strongly disagree with some of the comments written on here :)

Toy-soldier, Kizzy and JoshBB's, I've read all your posts on this thread and commend all three of you for sticking it out in such a small minority group. Its comforting to understand that most of us Brits think like you do :laugh:

Thank you DR, it just goes to show that is the true British spirit to be compassionate and empathic to those in desperation and needing our help.

[kirklancaster]

Thank you DR, it just goes to show that is the true British spirit to be compassionate and empathic to those in desperation and needing our help.

Yeah, but those qualities are not exclusive to people of Left Wing political persuasion - far from it.

[Kizzy]

Yeah, but those qualities are not exclusive to people of Left Wing political persuasion - far from it.

Who said they were?.....

[Livia]

I don't have a problem with asylum seekers coming here legitimately, maybe through UN and other properly organised camps. What I do have a problem with is this: the mass tide of refugees crossing Europe is an ideal infiltration opportunity by IS. If I was IS, I'd be sending people in that tide of humans. How many do we think might actually be IS infiltrators? One in ten thousand? One in a thousand? One in a hundred? One in ten? No one knows. But they're in there. Just throwing open the borders would be a mistake. Bring them in... but bring them in properly checked.

[kirklancaster]

I don't have a problem with asylum seekers coming here legitimately, maybe through UN and other properly organised camps. What I do have a problem with is this: the mass tide of refugees crossing Europe is an ideal infiltration opportunity by IS. If I was IS, I'd be sending people in that tide of humans. How many do we think might actually be IS infiltrators? One in ten thousand? One in a thousand? One in a hundred? One in ten? No one knows. But they're in there. Just throwing open the borders would be a mistake. Bring them in... but bring them in properly checked.

Ys - and IS have BOASTED of smuggling their trained killers into all Western Countries including the UK by just this very method. And that was two years ago - so you are right to ask "How many."