assisted sucide AGENDA?

[the truth]

who is pushing this all the time?

its hitting parliament now

God help the sick weak vulnerable and elderly if assisted suicide is legalised across the uk

even in a country where tens of thousands die from neglect in british hospitals and care homes and nursing homes ....we already have the post code lottery where people in poorer parts die on waiting lists

all we hear from the small minority who want to kill themselves ....anyone who wants to kill themselves has my sympathy, but we already have record suicide rates in the uk (especially amongst men)

theres 1000s of abuses already, nil by mouth without consultation allowing people to starve to death

heaven forbid what happens when we open the floodgates to killing people in hospitals.....will it be abused? all the best

who is pushing this agenda? THE RICH......BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO PAY FOR THE PENSIONS OF THE EVER AGING POOR MASSES!

[Kizzy]

It's usually those dying, the PM has ruled this out so hopefully that's the last we'll hear for a while.

Ah just goes to show you can't trust word from his gob the commons are voting on it now...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2015/sep/11/mps-debate-and-vote-on-the-assisted-dying-bill-politics-live

[Cherie]

The motion was defeated

[the truth]

Thank God. Im sick of hearing about this bizarre death wish narrative
Weve never even heard the counter argument about the obsene abuses it could open up
how would you like to be in a vulnerable state with the thought someone somewhere may be assisting your death
with the nhs as vulnerable and skint as it now is, the danger is greater than ever and the buck souldnt stop anywhere...even if it did its too late for the poor bugger who has been bumped off or assisted to his grave
hospitals are for saving lives not bumping people off

[lewis111]

But surely if someone, usually very ill, is done with life, sees no point in living and wants to die but are incapable of doing it themselves should be assisted, I'm not hppy with today's ruling. It will be costing the NHS a fortune when people are content with their life and are now wanitng it to be over for the better

[JoshBB]

I wish this bill was passed to be completely honest, I don't understand why someone should be made to suffer when they don't need to.

[Kizzy]

The motion was defeated

Phew :)

[the truth]

But surely if someone, usually very ill, is done with life, sees no point in living and wants to die but are incapable of doing it themselves should be assisted, I'm not hppy with today's ruling. It will be costing the NHS a fortune when people are content with their life and are now wanitng it to be over for the better

people are already allowed to die with nil by mouth and turning off machines....if you take it this step further to give people cyanide to kill themselves you open up one hell of a hornets nest....theres already masses of abuse and neglect this would make it ten times worse

[user104658]

I would happily see us allow assisted suicide HOWEVER, only in cases where the person wishing it has a permanent, uncurable, and very painful condition. I'd also want a number of doctors (say at least 5?) to sign off on the fact that the person has such a condition.

Allowing people to kill themselves just because they're old, "done with life", finding things difficult is obviously not OK.

However, forcing someone to live in serious pain - sometimes agony - and in fact sometimes artificially keeping people alive in such a state... is simply inhumane. I'm talking about cases where you have elderly people whose limbs are literally rotting off of their bodies, and whose insides are so messed up that they are vomitting their own feces on a daily basis, and people in this state are kept alive sometimes for years.

So whilst I can appreciate that it's something that is unfortunately open to abuse if not handled properly - there is absolutely nothing (at all) morally "right" in keeping someone alive when they are in so much pain that they want to die, if it's known that theres no other way for that pain to end.

[the truth]

I wish this bill was passed to be completely honest, I don't understand why someone should be made to suffer when they don't need to.

what about the thousands more who would have suffered or died as a result of the bill being passed?

[JoshBB]

what about the thousands more who would have suffered or died as a result of the bill being passed?

You know this how??

not mystic mock losing their job :worry:

[the truth]

I would happily see us allow assisted suicide HOWEVER, only in cases where the person wishing it has a permanent, uncurable, and very painful condition. I'd also want a number of doctors (say at least 5?) to sign off on the fact that the person has such a condition.

Allowing people to kill themselves just because they're old, "done with life", finding things difficult is obviously not OK.

However, forcing someone to live in serious pain - sometimes agony - and in fact sometimes artificially keeping people alive in such a state... is simply inhumane. I'm talking about cases where you have elderly people whose limbs are literally rotting off of their bodies, and whose insides are so messed up that they are vomitting their own feces on a daily basis, and people in this state are kept alive sometimes for years.

So whilst I can appreciate that it's something that is unfortunately open to abuse if not handled properly - there is absolutely nothing (at all) morally "right" in keeping someone alive when they are in so much pain that they want to die, if it's known that theres no other way for that pain to end.

youre worrying about a tiny minority to put the massive massive majority at risk
the person who is dying can have his treatment stopped, take pain killers and nile by mouth and do not rescuscitate is already enacted on thousands of people allowed to die...one can take poison to die but cant be assisted in taking it....the current situation is far enough.

[the truth]

You know this how??

not mystic mock losing their job :worry:

how what? how will there be abuses and neglect? are you kidding me? 25,000 people die each year in british hospitals from undiagnoes clots alone...thousands die of neglect, in fact thousands have actually died of thirst? people are dying from decisions to DO NOT RESCUSITATE when they haven't even spoken to the family or the individual....there are infinite abuses and cover ups already in the nhs

[the truth]

corbyns thoughts
How would you/did you vote on the following issues:


Assisted suicide? I don’t believe we should be talking about assisted dying until our social care and health care systems have been improved sufficiently with focus on the sick and elderly, especially since we are living in an age where longevity is on the rise and so many more elderly people are in need of health care.

Only when we have made enough effort in that direction can the luxury of such a choice be looked at properly.

[JoshBB]

corbyns thoughts
How would you/did you vote on the following issues:


Assisted suicide? I don’t believe we should be talking about assisted dying until our social care and health care systems have been improved sufficiently with focus on the sick and elderly, especially since we are living in an age where longevity is on the rise and so many more elderly people are in need of health care.

Only when we have made enough effort in that direction can the luxury of such a choice be looked at properly.

I mean he can have his view and I respect him a lot, but I'm slightly more left-wing in this aspect I guess :shrug:

[the truth]

I mean he can have his view and I respect him a lot, but I'm slightly more left-wing in this aspect I guess :shrug:

left wing? this is life and death its way more important than petty party politi:nono:cians and slogans

[AnnieK]

I completely agree with assisted suicide after watching loved ones suffer terminal and incredibly debilitating diseases. If I heard right on the news (and I've not read anything about it) the discussions today were regarding allowing people with terminal illnesses who have been given less than 6 months to live, the right to end their lives the way they wish, painlessly and whilst they are able to die in dignity rather than morphine induced States, trapped in their own bodies or writhing in pain. I am completely at ease with that as long as it is the patients, and only the patients choice, not a doctor or family members. Luckily for her, my mum didn't suffer for long, having been given up to 12 months to live with her cancer, she sadly (but mercifully for her I guess) passed after just 4 weeks but she said that she didn't want to be in pain or suffer and would have liked the option if it indeed existed in this country.

[user104658]

youre worrying about a tiny minority to put the massive massive majority at risk
the person who is dying can have his treatment stopped, take pain killers and nile by mouth and do not rescuscitate is already enacted on thousands of people allowed to die...one can take poison to die but cant be assisted in taking it....the current situation is far enough.

True but what constitutes assistance? The person in question might be physically able to take an overdose or poison to kill themselves, but not physically able to actually obtain these items. What constitutes "assisting"? Does obtaining the means for them to kill themselves and then just leaving it somewhere they they can get to it count as "assisting"? I'd say it's very murky territory, at the very least.

corbyns thoughts
How would you/did you vote on the following issues:


Assisted suicide? I don’t believe we should be talking about assisted dying until our social care and health care systems have been improved sufficiently with focus on the sick and elderly, especially since we are living in an age where longevity is on the rise and so many more elderly people are in need of health care.

Only when we have made enough effort in that direction can the luxury of such a choice be looked at properly.

There is that, I suppose... in an ideal world where the availability of care and medical services to keep people comfortable is optimal then you'd get a much better idea of who does and doesn't genuinely want to end it. How many would, at the moment, choose to end it simply because the care or treatment they need to make life liveable just isn't being made available to them...

[Livia]

I'm disappointed this failed to get through Parliament. If they couldn't get it through with the person involved having to be able to ask for it themselves, and the support of two doctors and a High Court judge... then I think they'll never get it through. You should be able to end your own life, I think it's everyone's right... and if you're physically unable you should have the right to ask someone else to help you. Sadly, people wishing release from an agonising death will have to travel to Switzerland or somewhere rather than being able to die in their own home. It's a shame.

[smudgie]

If someone is terminal and has 6 months or less to live and is in pain then I see no problem.
My question is who would be allowed to assist them, not easy for loved ones to do, I should imagine that some guilt feelings would follow even though you carried out their wishes.

[Ammi]

I'm disappointed this failed to get through Parliament. If they couldn't get it through with the person involved having to be able to ask for it themselves, and the support of two doctors and a High Court judge... then I think they'll never get it through. You should be able to end your own life, I think it's everyone's right... and if you're physically unable you should have the right to ask someone else to help you. Sadly, people wishing release from an agonising death will have to travel to Switzerland or somewhere rather than being able to die in their own home. It's a shame.

..I was thinking about that earlier and obviously travelling elsewhere/Switzerland takes funding...so to me it's like saying that the right to end suffering will not be available to anyone who can't fund it...so a very elitist thing then, the right to end pain...

[Kizzy]

'The bill contains only vague qualifying criteria for assistance with taking your own life, such as having “a settled wish” or being free from undue pressure. But there is no provision within the bill about how robust decisions are to be made in such matters. It doesn’t make provision for any audit of deaths or for a regulatory body to monitor compliance. In short, the proposals are unsafe and unworkable.

Those closest to dying people, professionals in palliative medicine and others involved in end-of-life care, are among the strongest opponents of this legislation. They have firsthand experience every day of the vulnerability of dying people, and they have no wish to become involved in intentional killing. They know that giving everyone fair access to excellent end-of-life care can make all the difference to our experience of death.'

Excellent points from Tanni Grey-Thompson.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/08/assisted-dying-bill-reject

[Livia]

..I was thinking about that earlier and obviously travelling elsewhere/Switzerland takes funding...so to me it's like saying that the right to end suffering will not be available to anyone who can't fund it...so a very elitist thing then, the right to end pain...

I feel the same, Ammz. Not everyone will be able to fund it if it's what they wish. And assisted suicide has got to be better than feeling the desperation of this woman:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/19/right-to-die-campaigner-starved-herself-jean-davies

[Kizzy]

Davies publishing a book, Choice in Dying, in 1997 and spent much of her life campaigning for a change in the law to let doctors administer lethal medication to patients who wanted to die. She explained that she did not have a terminal illness but suffered from a range of medical conditions including chronic back pain and had suffered increasingly frequent fainting episodes.'

'Davies died on 1 October, five weeks after she stopped eating and a fortnight after she decided to stop drinking water.'

This lady had effectively decided in 1997 that if she was going to end her life on her terms, as she didn't die before her 86th year she then took it upon herself to end her own life in a very distressing way for her and her family, I cannot see any positives in this whatsoever.

Had the vote had a different outcome this lady wouldn't have been eligible in any case her symptoms are all simply age related degeneration, have we to 'bump off' all our old dears?

[Ammi]

I feel the same, Ammz. Not everyone will be able to fund it if it's what they wish. And assisted suicide has got to be better than feeling the desperation of this woman:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/19/right-to-die-campaigner-starved-herself-jean-davies

...the thing is, it's not illegal, only illegal in this country so some are going to other countries and that won't stop but it's making that choice only available 'for the rich' type thing..only someone who can afford it can have that choice..which to me also feels like..well not on our back door, because that would be too controversial and messy..so off you go somewhere else and then we don't have to think about it.. which is not very compassionate at all...

[AnnieK]

Davies publishing a book, Choice in Dying, in 1997 and spent much of her life campaigning for a change in the law to let doctors administer lethal medication to patients who wanted to die. She explained that she did not have a terminal illness but suffered from a range of medical conditions including chronic back pain and had suffered increasingly frequent fainting episodes.'

'Davies died on 1 October, five weeks after she stopped eating and a fortnight after she decided to stop drinking water.'

This lady had effectively decided in 1997 that if she was going to end her life on her terms, as she didn't die before her 86th year she then took it upon herself to end her own life in a very distressing way for her and her family, I cannot see any positives in this whatsoever.

Had the vote had a different outcome this lady wouldn't have been eligible in any case her symptoms are all simply age related degeneration, have we to 'bump off' all our old dears?

No she wouldn't have been eligible and it's such a tough area to discuss, it's such an emotive subject with most people I have spoken to bring either staunchly for or against.

In answer to your last sentence though, no we wouldn't have to bump off all our old dears but this lady came to her own conclusion and decided that was how she saw her fate. As I said in my earlier post, and indeed at dignitaries, the person is evaluated to ensure they are of sound mind and it is THEIR decision and theirs alone. They insist on people taking their own medication to end their own life and tape it for legal proof. It can be no one else's decision, only the patients.

[Kizzy]

It cost 150 euros and a one way ticket, money isn't the issue it's meant to be dignity in death isn't it? I'd like to know what the doctors tasked with performing these 'suicides' feel about the issue. Will it be available on the NHS or private enterprise only?

[Kizzy]

No she wouldn't have been eligible and it's such a tough area to discuss, it's such an emotive subject with most people I have spoken to bring either staunchly for or against.

In answer to your last sentence though, no we wouldn't have to bump off all our old dears but this lady came to her own conclusion and decided that was how she saw her fate. As I said in my earlier post, and indeed at dignitaries, the person is evaluated to ensure they are of sound mind and it is THEIR decision and theirs alone. They insist on people taking their own medication to end their own life and tape it for legal proof. It can be no one else's decision, only the patients.

She may have done, but would that not lead octogenarians country wide to feel obligated to off themselves as they fear becoming a burden?

[AnnieK]

She may have done, but would that not lead octogenarians country wide to feel obligated to off themselves as they fear becoming a burden?

Obviously I can't answer that. I would like to think not and I would also like to think that doctors who assess them would only grant the right to those who are suffering for untenable pain and facing a terminal illness with no hope of cure or recovery. I really haven't thought that much about how it could affect everyone, my main thoughts when considering assisted suicide have always been with those suffering terminal illnesses, cancer, Huntingtons, motor neurone etc who face the prospect of quite often horrific end of life.....either doped up or in considerable pain which we do not allow animals in this country to suffer.

[Ammi]

No she wouldn't have been eligible and it's such a tough area to discuss, it's such an emotive subject with most people I have spoken to bring either staunchly for or against.

In answer to your last sentence though, no we wouldn't have to bump off all our old dears but this lady came to her own conclusion and decided that was how she saw her fate. As I said in my earlier post, and indeed at dignitaries, the person is evaluated to ensure they are of sound mind and it is THEIR decision and theirs alone. They insist on people taking their own medication to end their own life and tape it for legal proof. It can be no one else's decision, only the patients.

..Indeed Annie, they're not given a lethal injection or anything but the whole process will only be approved if they're able to assist the process of medication themselves...and it costs quite a bit of money, so not everyone would be able to have the option...if it was legal, if it was funded etc and obviously there would be restricted funds like there are in everything...then it makes it available to everyone and not something that is only an option for those who could afford it...the right for everyone to live with healthcare and the right for everyone to die when there is no quality of life and huge suffering... /not go away somewhere else and do it/that's your only choice...

[kirklancaster]

I would happily see us allow assisted suicide HOWEVER, only in cases where the person wishing it has a permanent, uncurable, and very painful condition. I'd also want a number of doctors (say at least 5?) to sign off on the fact that the person has such a condition.

Allowing people to kill themselves just because they're old, "done with life", finding things difficult is obviously not OK.

However, forcing someone to live in serious pain - sometimes agony - and in fact sometimes artificially keeping people alive in such a state... is simply inhumane. I'm talking about cases where you have elderly people whose limbs are literally rotting off of their bodies, and whose insides are so messed up that they are vomitting their own feces on a daily basis, and people in this state are kept alive sometimes for years.

So whilst I can appreciate that it's something that is unfortunately open to abuse if not handled properly - there is absolutely nothing (at all) morally "right" in keeping someone alive when they are in so much pain that they want to die, if it's known that theres no other way for that pain to end.

I can't fault this logic. I agree. (Sit down T.S - take a deep breath, the shock will pass. :laugh:)

[Livia]

I can't fault this logic. I agree. (Sit down T.S - take a deep breath, the shock will pass. :laugh:)

I agree with him too. Didn't want to say... thought he might keel over...

[kirklancaster]

I agree with him too. Didn't want to say... thought he might keel over...

:laugh: Let's hope so. :whistle:

[the truth]

this is a great decision today....we must never go down this path

[the truth]

It cost 150 euros and a one way ticket, money isn't the issue it's meant to be dignity in death isn't it? I'd like to know what the doctors tasked with performing these 'suicides' feel about the issue. Will it be available on the NHS or private enterprise only?

the doctors are against it enmasse as are most other medical professionals

[Tom4784]

The bill should be passed, it's a strawman argument to deny it based on wild assumptions that people would use it for murder.

[JoshBB]

left wing? this is life and death its way more important than petty party politi:nono:cians and slogans

I know it's about life and death, and this wasn't an issue of petty party politics (which you brought up, referencing Corbyn's view, almost trying to say "look!!! someone u like has a different opinion to u! which also happens to my my view")

[Kizzy]

The removal of many cancer treatments this week basically is assisted suicide isn't it? it will speed up the end for 1000s they don't need this vote sadly.

[AnnieK]

Forget it.....

[the truth]

do you actually read the effects this disaster has had in other nations where thoussands of innocents have died...this is the loony left at its most evil

im delighted this evil bill is voted down unanimously....how these people claim to care for the tiny minority who wish to kill themselves yet say nothing about the thousands who are neglected in the nhs and the most vulnerable many of whom would suffer as a result of this horrific suggestion..as weve seen in Holland thousands have died without consent

We don’t need to speculate. The Netherlands has already gone down this slippery slope and provided the grizzly statistics that should stop us going down the same path.

A 1973 court decision in the Netherlands started the process. Doctors and lawyers set strict guidelines to restrict when doctors could assist a terminally ill patient who wanted to commit suicide, and to protect a terminally ill patient who didn’t want to be euthanized (i.e., killed).

“In only 23 years, Dutch doctors have gone from being permitted to kill the terminally ill who ask for it, to killing the chronically ill who ask for it, to killing newborn babies in their cribs because they have birth defects, even though by definition they cannot ask for it. Dutch doctors also engage in involuntary euthanasia without significant legal consequence, even though such activity is officially prohibited,” writes Wesley J. Smith in Forced Exit: The Slippery Slope from Assisted Suicide to Legalized Murder.

After the guidelines had been in place for 23 years, doctors were surveyed about people they euthanized. Incidentally, doctors later admitted they had under-reported euthanasia cases, so the following statistics are actually less than what really happened.

In 1990, 130,000 people died in the Netherlands: 2,300 people asked doctors to kill them; 400 asked doctors to provide them with the means to kill themselves; 8,100 died when doctors deliberately gave them an overdose of pain medication to kill them (for which 4,941 patients didn’t consent); 1,040 people died when doctors euthanized them without their knowledge or consent (72 per cent of those never having given any indication they would want their lives terminated).

That’s breathtaking in more than one way.

It’s not so much that nine per cent died at the hands of doctors, which is alarming in and of itself. What should raise our cries of outrage is that 4,941 people (four per cent) did not give their consent to being killed. A doctor who operates on someone without their consent can be successfully sued and made to pay huge dollars for having done so. The same should apply for killing a person without their consent.
And it’s the 1,040 people (one percent) who were killed without their knowledge or consent and the 749 who never wanted to die early that should get us up in arms.

[kirklancaster]

Obviously I can't answer that. I would like to think not and I would also like to think that doctors who assess them would only grant the right to those who are suffering for untenable pain and facing a terminal illness with no hope of cure or recovery. I really haven't thought that much about how it could affect everyone, my main thoughts when considering assisted suicide have always been with those suffering terminal illnesses, cancer, Huntingtons, motor neurone etc who face the prospect of quite often horrific end of life.....either doped up or in considerable pain which we do not allow animals in this country to suffer.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[lostalex]

no one should have to suffer. if someone makes this decision for themselves, they should have support from everyone to make it as nice and comfortable for them as we can.

Most people don't understand the kind of pain and suffering that some diseases can cause. We all like to think that some day we will just pass away quietly in our sleep, but for most people that is not the case.

[Cherie]

There are some very compelling arguments on both sides, I'm really torn on it, people have been given 6 months to live and gone on relatively pain free for years so a one size fits all approach is not the answer either.

[kirklancaster]

Speaking purely from a personal POV; I believe that I could live with physical illness no matter how much pain I was in, until a 'natural' end came, but if the day ever came (God forbid it) that my brain degenerated - dementia, whatever - then I would NOT want to exist in such a condition, and would desire an 'assisted' end.

[Ammi]

There are some very compelling arguments on both sides, I'm really torn on it, people have been given 6 months to live and gone on relatively pain free for years so a one size fits all approach is not the answer either.

..yeah and I think that it being illegal makes it a one size fits all, Cherie.. except it isn't even just that though because it's legal in other countries so people would have to fund that/be able to afford to end their pain/suffering...and their families would have to be able to take time away from work etc/be granted that leave and be able to afford it etc to be with their loved one through the process...so therefore making it an 'elitist' thing to be able to end suffering, which it basically is now...

[joeysteele]

I respect all the views on this issue,there are compelling arguments both for and against it.

However, had I been able to vote on this issue yesterday,I would have voted against it.
I just feel it would probably be too easy to get the permission for same.

I would hate to see economics and cost of treatments and cost of time, ever being 'secretly' the real reason some people hade their lives terminated.
I can see both sides totally but the people who get in power,driven by profit and economics,then the way the NHS and Doctors can 'appear' to be at times in this modern age,I feel at present, never enough safeguards could be 100% for sure, put in place as to assisting a death.

So on balance, I am pleased this failed again yesterday.

[billy123]

Reading the first page of this thread you would think anyone could just rock up at A&E and collect their free shot of poison.
Yes it should be made legal but of course it has to come with very strict guidlines and used in a tiny minority of people at the end of their lives that have no prospect other than agonising pain,certain death and no prospect of any quality of life left.

Maybe this proposition didnt cover enough bases to make it feasible but it certainly wasnt some easy out for anybody that wanted it. I hope they go back to the drawing board and come up with a viable solution because there is no doubt that this would be a much better,respectable and humane option for some people.

[Kizzy]

It would be something that the state either had to manage or regulate and let's face it they're trying to offload as much as poss atm so this has no chance.

[the truth]

Reading the first page of this thread you would think anyone could just rock up at A&E and collect their free shot of poison.
Yes it should be made legal but of course it has to come with very strict guidlines and used in a tiny minority of people at the end of their lives that have no prospect other than agonising pain,certain death and no prospect of any quality of life left.

Maybe this proposition didnt cover enough bases to make it feasible but it certainly wasnt some easy out for anybody that wanted it. I hope they go back to the drawing board and come up with a viable solution because there is no doubt that this would be a much better,respectable and humane option for some people.

why do you ignore the fact 1000s , tens of thousands are already neglected or abused in nhs hospitals already, causing tens of thousands of avoidable premature deaths, especially on weekends....25 000 died from undiagnosed blood clots per year in uk hospitals...why aren't you saying anything about that? what about the tens of thousands of additional deaths and the mass of abuses and growth of suicide culture in the countries where assisted suicide has been legalised? where is your compassion for these tens of thousands of neglected / abused people who have died because of this insane legislation?
I ask this of all people who want to legalise assisted suicide? where is your compassion for the mass of people neglected or abused?