James Randi: 'Debunking Psychics and Frauds' - UNMISSABLE!!

[kirklancaster]

I've just watched an excellent documentary on BBC 4 about the Great James Randi and it is unmissable viewing.

Randi is a very famous magician who has offered a cool million dollars to any psychic, clairvoyant, and medium etc who will PROVE their powers under laboratory conditions. Thus far, after decades, no one has claimed it.

The abhorrent Uri Geller is only one of many whom Randi has exposed as crooks, but it is the 'human interest' aspect of this documentary which lifts it way above the ordinary. Randi is a gay man but kept it private for decades, and his live-in-partner of 25 years is suddenly arrested - bringing Randi out of 'the closet'.

I love Randi and this documentary is brilliant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04ndsb3/storyville-20142015-8-exposed-magicians-psychics-and-frauds

[Niamh.]

Oh that sounds good actually, I'm going to check that out Kirk

[kirklancaster]

Oh that sounds good actually, I'm going to check that out Kirk

Do that Niamh - It's all enthralling. I had a little tear in my eye at how little and frail Randi is now. :blush:

[billy123]

Cheers for the recommendation Kirk it does sound interesting i will check it out :thumbs:

[Kizzy]

I have a feeling someday someone will claim that money...

[kirklancaster]

Cheers for the recommendation Kirk it does sound interesting i will check it out :thumbs:

Do watch it Bob, it's fascinating.

[Ramsay]

Big fan of Randi, nothing better than seeing "Psychics" called out.

[kirklancaster]

I have a feeling someday someone will claim that money...

I hope so - which is why I love James Randi, because every charlatan he exposes or closes down clears the way for any genuine paranormal cases to be scientifically studied. As it is now, all the fraudsters and hoaxers and cranks convince everyone that ALL paranormal cases are fake, which I do not personally believe is the truth.

I mean, one of the crooks in this documentary has made millions out of conning the gullible that he is in 'direct touch with God' and the ruthless bastard tells seriously ill cancer patients and others to "Throw away those tablets and medicines, you are cured" by his laying on of hands B.S. He should be executed. And I mean it. Randi exposed him brilliantly on the Johnny Carson show.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes I have seen this docu and its quite sad about his love life and his closeted sexuality. He did a great job exposing all the fake mediums and supernatural eejits like Gellar.

.. and of course noone won the money

[Kizzy]

The same could be said of the evangelical crew and their 'power of jebus' baloney, they are lauded in the US and here too.

[DemolitionRed]

I've got mixed feelings about this and I'll explain why.

Today I chatted to a close friend who recently went through something absolutely devastating. She had therapy but that didn't seem to help. Its very unlike her but she decided to go and see a medium a few weeks ago and since then her spirits have lifted. The medium didn't offer her a solution but she did tell my friend that her grandmother was watching over her and guarding her.

From what she has told me, it sounds like this particular medium just gave her something that she desperately needs right now. Maybe her grandmother is with her, maybe she's not but if her belief helps her, then in my opinion, that has to be good don't you think?

There is so much we don't know, don't understand and for that reason I prefer to keep an open mind about such things.

[Kizzy]

I've got mixed feelings about this and I'll explain why.

Today I chatted to a close friend who recently went through something absolutely devastating. She had therapy but that didn't seem to help. Its very unlike her but she decided to go and see a medium a few weeks ago and since then her spirits have lifted. The medium didn't offer her a solution but she did tell my friend that her grandmother was watching over her and guarding her.

From what she has told me, it sounds like this particular medium just gave her something that she desperately needs right now. Maybe her grandmother is with her, maybe she's not but if her belief helps her, then in my opinion, that has to be good don't you think?

There is so much we don't know, don't understand and for that reason I prefer to keep an open mind about such things.

I believe the exact same thing, some may say it's exploitative and many may get addicted to receiving 'messages' from loved ones who have passed... I personally feel there's something in it and would love to think that it was a way to connect, I'm really conflicted on this too.

[DemolitionRed]

Kizzy, the problem is, there are more exploitative mediums, psychics and fortune tellers out there than there are genuine ones (or ones who believe they are genuine). My grandmother used to get what she called psychic dreams. I don't know if her dreams really were psychic but she genuinely believed they were.

Telepathy has been proven to be real but it took many, many years of rigorous and repeated experiments to reach this conclusion.

As for psychic phenomenon... just because there's presently a lack of published papers and peer reviews for a scientific theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Kyle]

Is this the sameguy who exposed Peter Popov when he caught his wife reading the prayer cards of people to him over a wireless earpiece?

[Kizzy]

Kizzy, the problem is, there are more exploitative mediums, psychics and fortune tellers out there than there are genuine ones (or ones who believe they are genuine). My grandmother used to get what she called psychic dreams. I don't know if her dreams really were psychic but she genuinely believed they were.

Telepathy has been proven to be real but it took many, many years of rigorous and repeated experiments to reach this conclusion.

As for psychic phenomenon... just because there's presently a lack of published papers and peer reviews for a scientific theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I agree, my daughter and her partner went to a local medium just a few days ago before they set back off to uni... it really did set their minds at rest about things and it was very accurate, I know many say it's pure Barnum but I have an open mind :)

[Ammi]

..I haven't actually heard of James Randi, Kirk but I will try to find time to watch this...it's really hard with mediums I think because grief is something that is so individual to everyone and everyone copes with it differently...I guess for me the whole concept and thought of..'yes I a truly spiritual person' and a 'real medium'..and then the making money from it, 'selling comfort'...just to me doesn't connect, spiritual/moneymaking, you know...


..it's a tricky one really I think..obviously because I've worked in schools for many years, I've known quite a few young deaths and sudden deaths of parents and the effects on families and specifically the effects on the children, which is our main focus but obviously that extends to the whole family as well and trying to make sure they have all the support they need...I have known a few families, where the surviving parent has felt much comfort through a medium and then through that comfort, that's how they've relayed things to their child/children..anyways for a young child who doesn't understand 'death' anyway as such, in the situations I know of..the use of a medium as comfort has not only added to that child's confusion but I think for me more importantly/or more 'damaging' I should say...is that their surviving parent has focused so much time on the death they're finding so hard to get beyond that their focus on the 'life' and their child/children is something that has been neglected...obviously not intentionally but where schools are, are with the 'life' and the child and seeing their damage../so yeah so complicated...I had an elderly neighbour..(she's dead now..)..but she also couldn't get beyond the death of her husband and every day of her life without him, for her was almost another day 'too much'...but what she did have, was two children and their own children/her grandchildren and they were a very close family so her 'comfort days' were the days she spent with them and really the thing that helped her step from one day to the next etc..but then she did go to a medium, a friend persuaded her to go along one time...and she did get comfort, the medium gave her that comfort and told her things that she so needed to hear...but the thing with that..I guess 'the cost'..maybe..?..was that it took away her focus on her family, on the here and now and the living and the short time they knew that they would have her because of her age..and they also had lost their father so every moment with their mum became precious obviously...it gave her comfort and yet in doing that, it kept her in grief as well and kept her in that place..her family needed her in their lives as well but in a way they 'lost her to the medium' and the effect on them was that they had lost two parents instead of just one...this is rushed as I have work..but a really complicated thing I think because it can have such a far reaching effect on families as well../but I'm sure there are positive stories with whole families as well...we tend to go by our own associations with these things...

..but yeah, the 'spiritual' and the 'money earning' I find hard as well...I mean for most of us I think...if it was one of those things were we were give a 'gift'...if you had the power to give comfort and ease sadness and grief...and it was true and real..etc../would you do it...would we really think and feel, well yes, of course but I'm going to charge for that I'm afraid../it just doesn't sit right with me as being a 'spiritual' thought process....

[user104658]

I'll give £10 million to anyone who can prove the existence of God in laboratory conditions.

Any takers?

[kirklancaster]

I'll give £10 million to anyone who can prove the existence of God in laboratory conditions.

Any takers?

And I'll give all I have if anyone can disprove the existence of God under ANY conditions.

[user104658]

And I'll give all I have if anyone can disprove the existence of God under ANY conditions.
That's not how experimental science works. I'll give you the world if you can disprove the existence of an anthropomorphic duck with penis fingers being controlled telepathically by a super-intelligent hamster.

[kirklancaster]

That's not how experimental science works. I'll give you the world if you can disprove the existence of an anthropomorphic duck with penis fingers being controlled telepathically by a super-intelligent hamster.

But I KNOW that exists because in the old Adam West Batman TV series, he had an Anti-anthropomorphic duck with penis fingers being controlled telepathically by a super-intelligent hamster device on his utility belt.

[user104658]

Batman believes in infinite possibility, he has devices for every potential outcome no matter how improbable.

[kirklancaster]

Batman believes in infinite possibility, he has devices for every potential outcome no matter how improbable.

:laugh: That's why I love the old naff TV series so much.

[rubymoo]

I just laughed so loud at the conversation between TS and Kirk, it made my dogs jump.....and now they're pestering me for a biscuit:notimpressed:

But on topic i will watch this as anything to do with the supernatural and the debunking of pyschics and frauds is for me.

There are a lot of fakes out there and i dislike what they do, they charge a ridiculous price and prey on the vulnerable who are struggling with relationships, or grief.

This is a good link, and after reading this i will never go to a medium/psychic again.

http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/before_you_see_a_psychic.html

[kirklancaster]

Is this the sameguy who exposed Peter Popov when he caught his wife reading the prayer cards of people to him over a wireless earpiece?

:laugh: Yep - and that's in this vid Kyle. It's priceless.

[kirklancaster]

I just laughed so loud at the conversation between TS and Kirk, it made my dogs jump.....and now they're pestering me for a biscuit:notimpressed:

[/URL]

:laugh: Yes Ruby, we're the new 'Little and Large' -- his intellect is little and mine's large. :laugh:

We're the new 'Morecambe and wise' -- I'm wise and he should feck off to Morecambe. :laugh:

(Only joking T.S :joker: I love you really. )

[Ramsay]

irVVTmfz4mA

Pretty much shows how easy cold reading is to people that have mastered it. It pisses me off because if someone had genuine "psychic" power, why charge for it? especially why charge such ridiculous amounts? I get so angry just thinking about it :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

To me there are no 'fake' and 'genuine' mediums and psychics,They all fall into the same category.....con artists.
If people wanna throw money at them for some piece of mind or whatever and treat it like therapy then that's fine if it helps them.I never would.I'd prefer to see an actual trained therapist if i needed it.
There is a worry that mentally vulnerable people are getting the wool pulled over their eyes though which is not cool.

[rubymoo]

Pretty much shows how easy cold reading is to people that have mastered it. It pisses me off because if someone had genuine "psychic" power, why charge for it? especially why charge such ridiculous amounts? I get so angry just thinking about it :laugh:

It makes me angry too.

A friend of mine has been going to a local spiritual church and she's convinced or believes that she's communicating with spirit, i once held a fascination for psychics and the like but now it's becoming apparent that these people are all fakes, my friend tries to read me everytime she sees me, she'll often say 'can you take that?' or 'does that make sense' or 'this may not be important now but it will be later' it's all just bull**** from her, and it makes me cross because she thinks she knows me, my feelings, my past and my future like she's some sort of link to wherever! Safe to say she's alienated me from our friendship and i just give her a wide berth now.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've got mixed feelings about this and I'll explain why.

Today I chatted to a close friend who recently went through something absolutely devastating. She had therapy but that didn't seem to help. Its very unlike her but she decided to go and see a medium a few weeks ago and since then her spirits have lifted. The medium didn't offer her a solution but she did tell my friend that her grandmother was watching over her and guarding her.

From what she has told me, it sounds like this particular medium just gave her something that she desperately needs right now. Maybe her grandmother is with her, maybe she's not but if her belief helps her, then in my opinion, that has to be good don't you think?

There is so much we don't know, don't understand and for that reason I prefer to keep an open mind about such things.

what the medium did was prey on her and extort money from her. Its disgusting. She preyed on human wishful thinking.


The dead person is dead, does not exist and cannot comeback, ever.

What she needs is time to grieve and come to terms with a very natural thing - what she does not need is some conperson taking money from her and talking 6 kinds of bollocks

utterly vile

[kirklancaster]

what the medium did was prey on her and extort money from her. Its disgusting. She preyed on human wishful thinking.


The dead person is dead, does not exist and cannot comeback, ever.

What she needs is time to grieve and come to terms with a very natural thing - what she does not need is some conperson taking money from her and talking 6 kinds of bollocks

utterly vile

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[kirklancaster]

irVVTmfz4mA

Pretty much shows how easy cold reading is to people that have mastered it. It pisses me off because if someone had genuine "psychic" power, why charge for it? especially why charge such ridiculous amounts? I get so angry just thinking about it :laugh:

100% correct Ramsay. I actually am quite good at 'cold reading' and do it for a laugh at parties but these crooks that claim powers just so they can get rich are scum.

[DemolitionRed]

what the medium did was prey on her and extort money from her. Its disgusting. She preyed on human wishful thinking.


The dead person is dead, does not exist and cannot comeback, ever.

What she needs is time to grieve and come to terms with a very natural thing - what she does not need is some conperson taking money from her and talking 6 kinds of bollocks

utterly vile

Possibly but then what about that big money making industry called the church? I don't see much difference between this and a minister saying comforting words like "never forget the power of prayer" or "Jesus is always with you, you just need to allow him into your heart"

We don't know if Jesus is always with us. Its never been proved or disproved. If we were to offer a million quid to someone who could categorically prove that Jesus was always with us, would someone come forward with tangible evidence?

[lostalex]

i downloaded it, and i enjoyed it! thanks for recommending it!

i especially loved that they had 2 of my favorite people commenting, adam savage from myth busters and penn from penn and teller.

great movie, and i'm so glad that his husband did'nt get deported.

[kirklancaster]

i downloaded it, and i enjoyed it! thanks for recommending it!

i especially loved that they had 2 of my favorite people commenting, adam savage from myth busters and penn from penn and teller.

great movie, and i'm so glad that his husband did'nt get deported.

Thanks Alex, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. I actually was a bit teary about poor James when his husband was taken from him, and I'm so happy it all ended well for them both.

[MTVN]

Kizzy, the problem is, there are more exploitative mediums, psychics and fortune tellers out there than there are genuine ones (or ones who believe they are genuine). My grandmother used to get what she called psychic dreams. I don't know if her dreams really were psychic but she genuinely believed they were.

Telepathy has been proven to be real but it took many, many years of rigorous and repeated experiments to reach this conclusion.

As for psychic phenomenon... just because there's presently a lack of published papers and peer reviews for a scientific theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Really? I find that hard to believe

[bots]

Really? I find that hard to believe

i thought i moved you with the power of my posts every day :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Really? I find that hard to believe

Its completely untrue

maybe that is why

[Crimson Dynamo]

Possibly but then what about that big money making industry called the church? I don't see much difference between this and a minister saying comforting words like "never forget the power of prayer" or "Jesus is always with you, you just need to allow him into your heart"

We don't know if Jesus is always with us. Its never been proved or disproved. If we were to offer a million quid to someone who could categorically prove that Jesus was always with us, would someone come forward with tangible evidence?

A minister will not charge you to tell you bollocks

[MTVN]

i thought i moved you with the power of my posts every day :laugh:

Only arista does that I'm afraid

[DemolitionRed]

A minister will not charge you to tell you bollocks

Does not charging make it alright then? because if so, we have to say its okay for psychics to say their stuff as long as they don't charge either.

[Kizzy]

Churches are funded somehow... is that not peddling snake oil too?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Does not charging make it alright then? because if so, we have to say its okay for psychics to say their stuff as long as they don't charge either.


psychics ONLY exist because of charging

[DemolitionRed]

Really? I find that hard to believe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29093700

Brain-to-Brain Communication using non-invasive technology.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105225#s2

We can scrutinise this all we want but excited scientists are still calling it telepathy.

[DemolitionRed]

The church would not exist without its congregation. The church relies heavily on its followers purse. Look at the wealth of the Catholic church; where do you think that money comes from?

I'm not being pedantic here. I remain open minded about psychics, just as I remain open minded about religion. Both of these things are open to scrutiny but nothing can really be proved one way or the other.

Who am I to say if a person finds comfort in God and religiously goes to church every Sunday. The same goes for someone who chooses to find comfort in a psychic.

Would I ever go to see a psychic? No I wouldn't. Would I go to church? only to look at its historic value. The only reason the church exists and the only reason psychics are out there is because of public demand.

[Kizzy]

Careful DR you don't want blown minds all over your screen :laugh:

[user104658]

It's not really all that different to the Church. The amount of money in the Catholic Church for example, is dumbfounding.

The reason individual priests don't go around charging is because they've bought into it themselves, and are really just repeating the tried and tested "stock phrases" on the ground level.

It's like a supernatural pyramid scheme.

[Kizzy]

psychics ONLY exist because of charging

Churches only exist because of fear.

[kirklancaster]

:nono: Another thread being hijacked by the anti-Religion brigade.

[DemolitionRed]

Where did I say I'm anti religion ?

[kirklancaster]

Where did I say I'm anti religion ?

Based on your past posts and especially your post above, I was not referring to you Red. You have a self-declared open mind.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The protestant church was borne out of a disgust at the catholic church charging for absolution

but it is correct to say that both the church and mediums are both reliant on belief with no evidence

[Crimson Dynamo]

if you open your mind too much your brains fall out

[DemolitionRed]

deleted

[DemolitionRed]

And if you don't open your mind enough your brain gets pickled.

[Northern Monkey]

Everyone knows the church is funded by ancient missing Templar Gold:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Everyone knows the church is funded by ancient missing Templar Gold:laugh:

:laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

Everyone knows the church is funded by ancient missing Templar Gold:laugh:

:joker:

[kirklancaster]

And if you don't open your mind enough your brain gets pickled.

LT's brain has developed an immunity from being 'pickled' due to years of dedicated whisky imbibement. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

Based on your past posts and especially your post above, I was not referring to you Red. You have a self-declared open mind.

So I can't have a say because I'm anti religion now... wow there's a lot of reasons I'm not allowed a say isn't there?
It was me who said I had an open mind, you should have known that seeing as you presume you know my stance on religion. It's nice having a personal guru, tell me more about myself.

[kirklancaster]

So I can't have a say because I'm anti religion now... wow there's a lot of reasons I'm not allowed a say isn't there?
It was me who said I had an open mind, you should have known that seeing as you presume you know my stance on religion. It's nice having a personal guru, tell me more about myself.

You're entire raison d'etre seems to be the - needless - cause of argument. Just look at your previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy View Post
I have a feeling someday someone will claim that money...

And my totally, friendly, civil and logical response to it:

"I hope so - which is why I love James Randi, because every charlatan he exposes or closes down clears the way for any genuine paranormal cases to be scientifically studied. As it is now, all the fraudsters and hoaxers and cranks convince everyone that ALL paranormal cases are fake, which I do not personally believe is the truth.

I mean, one of the crooks in this documentary has made millions out of conning the gullible that he is in 'direct touch with God' and the ruthless bastard tells seriously ill cancer patients and others to "Throw away those tablets and medicines, you are cured" by his laying on of hands B.S. He should be executed. And I mean it. Randi exposed him brilliantly on the Johnny Carson show."

And NOTE how I point out that I am just as much in favour of exposing 'Religious' fakery as I am other 'paranormal' crooks.

You love creating argument where there is none by Strawman.

I do not care whether you are anti-Religion or not, I was justly pointing out that there was no need to hijack this thread by turning it into a an anti-God, anti-Religion thread when no one is even saying that the established church is innocent in this matter - start a seperate thread if you want to argue about theology or the existence of God and I will gladly contribute.

[Kizzy]

Oh are you monologging again...
None of my replies were a personal slight, and aligning any 'spirits in the sky' dialogue will always include the church as it is their entire ethos.

It isn't designed to derail any discussion but to expand on it, as any mindful person would.