Can faith move mountains?

[kirklancaster]

I laugh at those who decree that only Science has the answers to all the mysteries of life as we know it, because it is simply just not true. Today's 'Scientific Absolutes' are tomorrow's 'Wrong Theories'.

Amid all the hoxes and downright chicanery which inevitably 'muddies the waters' of the paranormal or supernatural (in it's real meaning) are a myriad cases of genuine phenomena which defies all scientific rational explanation.

Here is a case which I first learnt of while watching the excellent; 'Miracles Decoded' on the Sky H2 channel.

A mechanic was working under a 10,000lb (over 5 ton) truck when the jack slipped and the truck axle crushed him so badly that his abdomen was LESS THAN ONE INCH THICK.

His back was broken, and among massive internal injuries - too numerous to detail - his major arteries were severed in 5 places. He should have bled to death within minutes but didn't , he lived to tell the tale - because of his faith if you're a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, or because of Divine Intervention if you have an open mind.

Here are 2 links which I came across whilst doing further research. Watch and read, then tell me YOUR thoughts - Faith or Something 'Supernatural'?

http://http://blog.godreports.com/2012/06/mechanic-crushed-by-truck-axle-rescued-by-angels/

watch?v=CMRwPyhhTXs

[Niamh.]

why do the angels only decide to save some people of faith then and not others? Doesn't sound very fair of them?

[Tom4784]

I'd say that he survived because he was VERY lucky rather than it being a case of divine intervention or something else. If it was then why do religious people get cancer or have various misfortunes happen to them despite their faith? When's the last time religion has cured a disease?

Have faith if you want but to use it to try and downplay the power of Science and/or use it as an explanation for lucky events like this is silly.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:facepalm:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bruce Van Natta is the founder and president of Sweet Bread Ministries. He is a common, everyday person that serves the Living God who is anything but ordinary. His journey from prodigal son to full time ministry stretched out over three decades berfore culminating in a display of God’s power and grace.

Starting at an early age in Bruce’s life the Lord proved Himself faithful repeatedly, despite tragedies and countless bad choices and decisions made by Bruce. After high school the Lord called Bruce into ministry, but instead of being obedient he ran away and chose his own path which led to more problems and addictions.

As the years passed the Lord kept calling and knocking at the door of Bruce’s heart. Slowly things began to change as the Holy Spirit continued the sanctification process in Bruce’s life. Eventually he was brought to the startling revelation that God’s grace and mercy are not reserved only for those who have made all the right choices, can recite 100 Bible verses, or stand behind a pulpit—-God’s love is for everyday people, everyday!

In 2006 Bruce was crushed underneath a semi-truck and was at the verge of life and death when he had an “out of body” experience. During this near death experience he got to see the two angels that the Lord had sent to save his life. Bruce is the only person Doctors can find who has ever lived from some of the injuries he had.

http://sweetbreadministries.com/who-we-are/team/bruce-van-natta/
--------------------------------------------


sounds legit

[kirklancaster]

Bruce Van Natta is the founder and president of Sweet Bread Ministries. He is a common, everyday person that serves the Living God who is anything but ordinary. His journey from prodigal son to full time ministry stretched out over three decades berfore culminating in a display of God’s power and grace.

Starting at an early age in Bruce’s life the Lord proved Himself faithful repeatedly, despite tragedies and countless bad choices and decisions made by Bruce. After high school the Lord called Bruce into ministry, but instead of being obedient he ran away and chose his own path which led to more problems and addictions.

As the years passed the Lord kept calling and knocking at the door of Bruce’s heart. Slowly things began to change as the Holy Spirit continued the sanctification process in Bruce’s life. Eventually he was brought to the startling revelation that God’s grace and mercy are not reserved only for those who have made all the right choices, can recite 100 Bible verses, or stand behind a pulpit—-God’s love is for everyday people, everyday!

In 2006 Bruce was crushed underneath a semi-truck and was at the verge of life and death when he had an “out of body” experience. During this near death experience he got to see the two angels that the Lord had sent to save his life. Bruce is the only person Doctors can find who has ever lived from some of the injuries he had.

http://sweetbreadministries.com/who-we-are/team/bruce-van-natta/
--------------------------------------------


sounds legit

If you read it LT, he was a person of faith before this accident and went into full time ministry because of it. Which is why I asked 'Can Faith Move Mountains'.

[Kate!]

Amazing.

Here for when they make a film of his life and call it Moving Mountains Kirk

[Kate!]

Amazing.

Here for when they make a film of his life and call it Moving Mountains Kirk

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you read it LT, he was a person of faith before this accident and went into full time ministry because of it. Which is why I asked 'Can Faith Move Mountains'.

so his god was happy for the truck to fall on him but then sent 2 "angels" to help him when it did

meanwhile that very day 151,000 people died and no angels helped them?

20,000 were children who died of hunger

the conceit and ignorance of this guy is unbelievable

so ideal to run a ministry in america

[jennyjuniper]

Sometimes faith is all we have.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Sometimes faith is all we have.

in what respect?

[smudgie]

Having faith in yourself is a good pace to start.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Having faith in yourself is a good pace to start.

what do you mean

faith in yourself?

[Niamh.]

what do you mean

faith in yourself?

I assume like confidence in yourself? I would often say Have faith in yourself and that's what I would mean anyway, like trust in yourself enough to know you can do things

[Josy]

i can move move move any mountain

[Crimson Dynamo]

I assume like confidence in yourself? I would often say Have faith in yourself and that's what I would mean anyway, like trust in yourself enough to know you can do things

yes in other words about as specific as "be yourself"

[Crimson Dynamo]

i can move move move any mountain

are you sure there is not a mountain high enough?

[Niamh.]

yes in other words about as specific as "be yourself"

I don't understand what you mean? Having confidence in you ability to do something isn't unspecific :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't understand what you mean? Having confidence in you ability to do something isn't unspecific :shrug:

Well confidence would come from experience or practice


(not sure what this has to do with kirks crackpot story?)

[smudgie]

what do you mean

faith in yourself?

Belief in yourself, and the ability to overcome stuff.
I suppose like Niamh says, a sort of confidence in yourself.

[Niamh.]

Well confidence would come from experience or practice


(not sure what this has to do with kirks crackpot story?)

You asked what having faith in yourself meant :fist:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Belief in yourself, and the ability to overcome stuff.
I suppose like Niamh says, a sort of confidence in yourself.

as i said to neem that stems from practical things like experience and having money etc

i would imagine that some of the pupils of eaton have a lot more of that than the average kid from a scheme at the local comp

[smudgie]

as i said to neem that stems from practical things like experience and having money etc

i would imagine that some of the pupils of eaton have a lot more of that than the average kid from a scheme at the local comp

Nah, I had more faith when. I was poor really..probably because I was younger and maybe even because I needed to have faith:shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

the only thing that moves mountains, incidently, are tectonic plates driven by molten lava




just sayin

[Kyle]

I thought Yahweh was supposed to be a non-interventionist these days :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I thought Yahweh was supposed to be a non-interventionist these days :shrug:

he is doing some local garage work in America

too many flies in Africa

[Kyle]

he is doing some local garage work in America

too many flies in Africa


If I was a Christian I'd be a little miffed tbh. I've done my time on this fallen earth so why not let me die from the accident and join the Heavenly Father in eternal paradise?

[Kyle]

If I was a Christian I'd be a little miffed tbh. I've done my time on this fallen earth so why not let me die from the accident and join the Heavenly Father in eternal paradise?

Ah nevermind it says he's a pastor so I already know what the answer will be.

"Still to do god's work/shepherding the flock/unfinished business" or something along those lines.

[JoshBB]

Sorry but just because something didn't follow the regular pattern doesn't mean it's supernatural and God did it.

I'm open-minded, but come on..

[kirklancaster]

With a few notable exceptions, this thread has already gone the very predictable way I thought it would.

I did not claim that God intervened, or that Angels attended him, thus why I asked 'Can Faith Move Mountains'? and if you read my post without any predetermination to sneer or scoff, I actually asked; "Watch and read, then tell me YOUR thoughts - Faith or Something 'Supernatural'? - meaning did his FAITH alone (because he WAS a spritual person) give him the will to live, or was he correct and something 'supernatural' had taken place.

So it is not MY 'crackpot' story LT - it happened, it is Van Natta's story, and the Doctors and Surgeons all attest that he should - by all scientific criteria - be dead.

I was rather hoping for a cordial, intelligent discussion, but I should have known better.

Scoff and mock all you like, but this is just one of hundreds of genuine stories where 'Science' well and truly does NOT have the answers, and it is NOT unique.

On Sunday the 4th of October at 10pm on the CI HD channel is an episode of the excellent 'I Escaped My Killer' documentary series and I advise anyone with an open mind to watch it, because it is about a young, rational, very courageous girl - Jennifer Asbenson - who is kidnapped by a demented serial killer and escapes after being raped, brutalised and almost killed. She is pivotal in convicting the killer, but it is her testimony of just how she 'broke free' of her bonds in the locked boot of his car when she was weak and injured, which asks questions.

Desperate, she did the one thing that could bring some comfort.

"And that was pray. And I just started crying, saying, "God, if there's a God and you know that I'm in this trunk right now and you know that I'm about to be cut up into many pieces, please take my life or let me get away."

She thinks that what happened next was - pure and simple - divine intervention.

"I just prayed. and the duct tape just.... Crackled, I mean cracled and I just suddenly got hysterical strength… and I just started hearing all the twine busting behind my back… And I just busted it off. It was a miracle…I mean crackled and my hands were free."

'She was hysterical'/'she dreamt it' etc etc - Yes, OK, we've danced this dance before on the 'Stephanie Slater' thread when she is adamant a 'vision of Jesus' saved her, but it is not MY testimony, and I have no answers, I only know that all these hundreds and hundreds of sane ordinary people's testimony cannot be dismissed because it does not 'dovetail' into the narrow parameters of what we call 'Science'.

I remember news footage of a skinny 10 stone man lifting a truck which trapped his wife and that in itself DEFIES science, and not a 'spiritual' or 'religious' notion in sight.

Sorry.

[Crimson Dynamo]

With a few notable exceptions, this thread has already gone the very predictable way I thought it would.

I did not claim that God intervened, or that Angels attended him, thus why I asked 'Can Faith Move Mountains'? and if you read my post without any predetermination to sneer or scoff, I actually asked; "Watch and read, then tell me YOUR thoughts - Faith or Something 'Supernatural'? - meaning did his FAITH alone (because he WAS a spritual person) give him the will to live, or was he correct and something 'supernatural' had taken place.

So it is not MY 'crackpot' story LT - it happened, it is Van Natta's story, and the Doctors and Surgeons all attest that he should - by all scientific criteria - be dead.

I was rather hoping for a cordial, intelligent discussion, but I should have known better.

Scoff and mock all you like, but this is just one of hundreds of genuine stories where 'Science' well and truly does NOT have the answers, and it is NOT unique.

On Sunday the 4th of October at 10pm on the CI HD channel is an episode of the excellent 'I Escaped My Killer' documentary series and I advise anyone with an open mind to watch it, because it is about a young, rational, very courageous girl - Jennifer Asbenson - who is kidnapped by a demented serial killer and escapes after being raped, brutalised and almost killed. She is pivotal in convicting the killer, but it is her testimony of just how she 'broke free' of her bonds in the locked boot of his car when she was weak and injured, which asks questions.

Desperate, she did the one thing that could bring some comfort.

"And that was pray. And I just started crying, saying, "God, if there's a God and you know that I'm in this trunk right now and you know that I'm about to be cut up into many pieces, please take my life or let me get away."

She thinks that what happened next was - pure and simple - divine intervention.

"I just prayed. and the duct tape just.... Crackled, I mean cracled and I just suddenly got hysterical strength… and I just started hearing all the twine busting behind my back… And I just busted it off. It was a miracle…I mean crackled and my hands were free."

'She was hysterical'/'she dreamt it' etc etc - Yes, OK, we've danced this dance before on the 'Stephanie Slater' thread when she is adamant a 'vision of Jesus' saved her, but it is not MY testimony, and I have no answers, I only know that all these hundreds and hundreds of sane ordinary people's testimony cannot be dismissed because it does not 'dovetail' into the narrow parameters of what we call 'Science'.

I remember news footage of a skinny 10 stone man lifting a truck which trapped his wife and that in itself DEFIES science, and not a 'spiritual' or 'religious' notion in sight.

Sorry.

if you want a discussion then address all the perfectly logical arguments against this anecdotal (at best) story in the thread

[Ashley.]

No, but Usher can

[Crimson Dynamo]

Im glad this man is doing well, but some of his story doesn't sound accurate. For example, if his spleen was crushed and destroyed, then doctors would surgically remove it, not leave it in his body. That is standard medical procedure. My guess is that his spleen, pancreas, and other vital organs were displaced or shifted when the axel crushed him. There are women who wear extreme corsets which constrict their midline to a tiny 3 inch waist. They are able to wear these corsets because they shift their major organs above or below the narrow part and that is most likely what occurred with this man's spleen and other major organs, except his intestines were not as lucky. Also, Bruce states that 5 of his major arteries where severed and nobody except him has survived an injury like this, however, I've read about a few cases like this. Sometimes arteries will contract when severed and constrict enough that a person doesn't bleed to death. For example, a man in China (Peng Shuilin) was run over by a truck and was literally torn in two, where his bottom half was separated from his top half and dragged a distance. His major arteries were severed, but Peng Shuilin is not a Christian, so he did NOT ask God and all his angels for help, yet he also miraculously survived. Just saying.


just one post on the youtube page

[Kazanne]

i can move move move any mountain

Is your real name Faith ? Josy:hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Im glad this man is doing well, but some of his story doesn't sound accurate. For example, if his spleen was crushed and destroyed, then doctors would surgically remove it, not leave it in his body. That is standard medical procedure. My guess is that his spleen, pancreas, and other vital organs were displaced or shifted when the axel crushed him. There are women who wear extreme corsets which constrict their midline to a tiny 3 inch waist. They are able to wear these corsets because they shift their major organs above or below the narrow part and that is most likely what occurred with this man's spleen and other major organs, except his intestines were not as lucky. Also, Bruce states that 5 of his major arteries where severed and nobody except him has survived an injury like this, however, I've read about a few cases like this. Sometimes arteries will contract when severed and constrict enough that a person doesn't bleed to death. For example, a man in China (Peng Shuilin) was run over by a truck and was literally torn in two, where his bottom half was separated from his top half and dragged a distance. His major arteries were severed, but Peng Shuilin is not a Christian, so he did NOT ask God and all his angels for help, yet he also miraculously survived. Just saying.


just one post on the youtube page

Thank you LT - I will look into this. THIS is civil discussion. I do not have all the answers but I am sure that science doesn't either.

I am the very first to dismiss 'relics'/'Statues crying blood' etc, but there still remains hundreds of inexplicable cases once the more obvious fakery has been pruned away, and discussions - where other information comes to light - is the only way to help get to the bottom of such 'mysteries'.

I will now research the points you have made regarding his spleen etc and it may explain things - or it may not. I have an open mind. :laugh: