Germaine Greer: Transgender women are 'not women'

[Jamie89]

This is the video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34625512

This is a further article where she talks about Caitlyn Jenner, who apparently just wants to steal limelight from proper women!:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/24/caitlyn-jenner-wanted-limelight-of-female-kardashians-germaine-greer

The reason I find this so interesting is that it's Germaine Greer who's saying these things. I would have thought a feminist intellectual would better understand the dangers of repressing people. Of course she's entitled to her opinion I'm just very surprised that this is her opinion. For example, saying "they don't behave like women" is basically saying that all women should behave a particular way, which surely is blatant misogyny?

[JoshBB]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.

[Northern Monkey]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.No she's just a TIT.

[lostalex]

No she's just a TIT.

:joker:

[Jamie89]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.

Yes. And she's intentionally specific in referring to male to female transexuals and not the other way around. As if to imply that her problem isn't with transexualism in general but more about protecting an ideal of what a 'proper woman' should be

[JoshBB]

Yes. And she's intentionally specific in referring to male to female transexuals and not the other way around. As if to imply that her problem isn't with transexualism in general but more about protecting an ideal of what a 'proper woman' should be

Yeah. This is why so many radical feminists tend to not be feminists at all, they just hate men. (and even women born as men)

[JoshBB]

No she's just a TIT.

That too. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

To play devils advocate can a transitioned female ever truly think/act as a female having not experienced patriarchy or socialisation as a female child?

[lostalex]

To play devils advocate can a transitioned female ever truly think/act as a female having not experienced patriarchy or socialisation as a female child?

all little girls have a unique child hood experience. a trans girls also have a unique experience as a girl.

there is no definitive "girl" experience.

[Ashley.]

Double standards.

[JoshBB]

To play devils advocate can a transitioned female ever truly think/act as a female having not experienced patriarchy or socialisation as a female child?

Transgender children feel oppression in a way much stronger than any cisgender little girl would be my response to this.

[Kizzy]

all little girls have a unique child hood experience. a trans girls also have a unique experience as a girl.

there is no definitive "girl" experience.

I disagree there very much is a male and female gender experience of primary socialisation, if you went through your formative years as a boy that experience will be lacking I would have said.

[Crimson Dynamo]

well when GG transgendered people accepted him, i mean her

:nono:

[Josy]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.

Wouldn't that be a womb?

[Ashley.]

Wouldn't that be a womb?

https://media.giphy.com/media/W8tVTtVKk88ww/giphy.gif



You're right

[Ninastar]

Meh, probs not a very popular opinion (and i don't really care either way) but I don't think you an truly be female or male (unless you already are, through birth) until you have the operation. But of course you can identify as whatever you want, and we should stand by you with that.

[Jamie89]

To play devils advocate can a transitioned female ever truly think/act as a female having not experienced patriarchy or socialisation as a female child?

Well it's a good point, and honestly I don't know which is why it doesn't bother me necessarily if people have germaines views because at least it raises a debate, my main issue here is just that its a supposed feminist expressing what I feel are very misoginistic views. I suppose your question raises another which is, how should a woman think/act? Is it how we expect them to based on archaic stereotyping or is it however feels natural to them? I do have a close friend who is a female to male transexual and I had no idea until he told me, but how important should that be anyway compared to how he feels inside? I think these are the things that germaine is overlooking in favour of a more superficial and narrow minded approach to gender identity

[user104658]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.

LOL at there being an acronym for this :joker:

[lostalex]

i don't think your genitals and body parts define you as a man or a woman.

If a man goes to war, and he gets his balls blown off by a roadside bomb in Iraq... now he has no balls, is he still a man?

Or a woman gets breast cancer, and she has to have a mastectomy, is she still a woman?

[Jamie89]

i don't think your genitals and body parts define you as a man or a woman.

If a man goes to war, and he gets his balls blown off by a roadside bomb in Iraq... now he has no balls, is he still a man?

Or a woman gets breast cancer, and she has to have a mastectomy, is she still a woman?

You're right. And we all start off as female in the womb anyway... some of us are just lucky enough to grow penises :hehe: :joker:

[arista]

This is the video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34625512

This is a further article where she talks about Caitlyn Jenner, who apparently just wants to steal limelight from proper women!:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/24/caitlyn-jenner-wanted-limelight-of-female-kardashians-germaine-greer

The reason I find this so interesting is that it's Germaine Greer who's saying these things. I would have thought a feminist intellectual would better understand the dangers of repressing people. Of course she's entitled to her opinion I'm just very surprised that this is her opinion. For example, saying "they don't behave like women" is basically saying that all women should behave a particular way, which surely is blatant misogyny?


Yes I Get Her


Feel The Force

[arista]

well when GG transgendered people accepted him, i mean her

:nono:



What a Puddle!

[Livia]

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

[arista]

No transgender woman has the X chromosome so clinically, as they still have only xy chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.


Yes XY XX is the Facts

[lostalex]

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

what you say is factually true.

i don't think trans women need to be reminded though, and i think it's clear that Germaine Greer is just being a nasty **** by thinking she needs to REMIND trans women of that fact. It's clear she takes some kind of sick discriminatory pleasure in saying it.

[Jamie89]

Yes but gender identity isn't something thats assigned by chomosones so it comes down to how you chose to define man and woman I suppose

[Livia]

Yes but gender identity isn't something thats assigned by chomosones so it comes down to how you chose to define man and woman I suppose

Well, the fact is that no person born biologically a woman has the Y chromosome. Transgender women do. That's the scientific fact. But like I say, that doesn't mean that if someone feels they are "in the wrong body" they should be denied that chance to live as they choose.

I'm not sure what Greer is thinking. Maybe like lostalex says she just being vicious, or maybe there's another agenda. I don't have much time for her in any case.

[user104658]

Well, the fact is that no person born biologically a woman has the Y chromosome. Transgender women do. That's the scientific fact. But like I say, that doesn't mean that if someone feels they are "in the wrong body" they should be denied that chance to live as they choose.

I'm not sure what Greer is thinking. Maybe like lostalex says she just being vicious, or maybe there's another agenda. I don't have much time for her in any case.

She's a TWERP or whatever it is Josh said. These people who define themselves with acronyms or other such labels tend to follow a set of arbitrary "rules" that half of the time they don't have any real, well thought out, valid reasoning for. They are people who "choose" their pre-defined philosophies from a selection (usually online these days) and then "follow the rules" for the one they've chosen. This woman is a TARD so she believes that only women who are born women are women, because that's what everyone else with her prescribed belief system says.

[Kizzy]

Well it's a good point, and honestly I don't know which is why it doesn't bother me necessarily if people have germaines views because at least it raises a debate, my main issue here is just that its a supposed feminist expressing what I feel are very misoginistic views. I suppose your question raises another which is, how should a woman think/act? Is it how we expect them to based on archaic stereotyping or is it however feels natural to them? I do have a close friend who is a female to male transexual and I had no idea until he told me, but how important should that be anyway compared to how he feels inside? I think these are the things that germaine is overlooking in favour of a more superficial and narrow minded approach to gender identity

It's the censorship I object to, as an academic an intellectual an author and a Woman why is she denied voicing an opinion?
socialisation is not archaic stereotyping when it suits, nor is it misogyny to counter any discussion with debate on the issue.

[Kizzy]

Yes but gender identity isn't something thats assigned by chomosones so it comes down to how you chose to define man and woman I suppose

I don't see this as being as simple as genetics, the crux is that truly to identify as female there has to have been that transition from girl to woman as opposed to man to woman?

[Northern Monkey]

all little girls have a unique child hood experience. a trans girls also have a unique experience as a girl.

there is no definitive "girl" experience.

I agree here.All kids have their own unique experiences as children.No matter their gender.I'd say gender only comes into the equation as they get older.

[Kizzy]

I agree here.All kids have their own unique experiences as children.No matter their gender.I'd say gender only comes into the equation as they get older.

You don't think boys and girls are treated differently at all, and boys and girls don't interact with each other differently?
I think that's primarily what helps shape gender identity and prepares men to be men and women to be women.
That's not to say that men can't be women or visa versa, however expecting trans people to have the life experience as the opposite sex is impossible as it just didn't happen.

[Northern Monkey]

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

I agree with this also obviously^

[Northern Monkey]

You don't think boys and girls are treated differently at all, and boys and girls don't interact with each other differently?
I think that's primarily what helps shape gender identity and prepares men to be men and women to be women.
That's not to say that men can't be women or visa versa, however expecting trans people to have the life experience as the opposite sex is impossible as it just didn't happen.
But one boy can have a totally different experience to another and the same with girls.I don't think gender plays a huge role until later on.I mean kids are kids.They might play with different toys or whatever but it's not a major thing.

[Northern Monkey]

what you say is factually true.

i don't think trans women need to be reminded though, and i think it's clear that Germaine Greer is just being a nasty **** by thinking she needs to REMIND trans women of that fact. It's clear she takes some kind of sick discriminatory pleasure in saying it.

But then i agree with this too.Germaine Greer's just a nasty opinionated twat tbqh.

[Kizzy]

But then i agree with this too.Germaine Greer's just a nasty opinionated twat tbqh.

What a gender specific derogatory term to level at someone for having an opinion.

[Kizzy]

But one boy can have a totally different experience to another and the same with girls.I don't think gender plays a huge role until later on.I mean kids are kids.They might play with different toys or whatever but it's not a major thing.

Primary and secondary socialisation most certainly is a major thing, it's what shapes our thinking.

[Northern Monkey]

What a gender specific derogatory term to level at someone for having an opinion.

I don't discriminate,I call blokes twats too and pricks:laugh:

[user104658]

I don't discriminate,I call blokes twats too and pricks[emoji23]
Exactly, men can be twats and women can most certainly be dicks. :hehe:

[Jamie89]

It's the censorship I object to, as an academic an intellectual an author and a Woman why is she denied voicing an opinion?
socialisation is not archaic stereotyping when it suits, nor is it misogyny to counter any discussion with debate on the issue.

She's not denied an opinion she's entitled to it, as are those who disagree with her. I haven't said she should be censored. My point is that what she's saying sounds misoginistic because of her implying that women should act a certain way, which surely goes against feminism?

[Jamie89]

Well, the fact is that no person born biologically a woman has the Y chromosome. Transgender women do. That's the scientific fact. But like I say, that doesn't mean that if someone feels they are "in the wrong body" they should be denied that chance to live as they choose.

I'm not sure what Greer is thinking. Maybe like lostalex says she just being vicious, or maybe there's another agenda. I don't have much time for her in any case.

Yeah I agree with the factual-ness (not a word) of that and I'm not a biology expert or anything but the way I view it, is that our chromosomes are only a part of what form us physically and so are only really relevant as a focal point when looking at how we are going to be formed, rather than using them retroactively as a definition of who we currently are(I'm not saying that's what you're doing I'm just speaking generally on the issue of chromosones being brought into things), when everything including psychology is taken into consideration. So having a particular chromosone might mean we develop a penis at the beginning but if at a later stage we decide to change that surgically due to psychological reasons then it becomes something that is irrelevant in determining who we are. They're kind of the building blocks but we're so complex that we're able to say, ok, my body formed in that way for that particular reason, but this is who I actually am. And so it just comes down to whether a person should be judged gender wise based on how they were initially formed, or its based on everything taken into consideration and more importantly imo, who they judge themselves to be. And although science can be used as a way of determining someones biological sex, it can't be used to determine someone's gender because it's not a physical thing that can be seen. If any of that makes sense lol

[Kizzy]

She's not denied an opinion she's entitled to it, as are those who disagree with her. I haven't said she should be censored. My point is that what she's saying sounds misoginistic because of her implying that women should act a certain way, which surely goes against feminism?

Yet the vid is about her being restricted from speaking on the subject somewhere.
She isn't implying anything, feminism is a female issue.
It's not misogynistic to suggest becoming a woman does not make you privvy to all that being a female entails, it doesn't it's a lifelong learning curve.

[the truth]

Yeah. This is why so many radical feminists tend to not be feminists at all, they just hate men. (and even women born as men)

spot on, shes evil pure and simple a spiteful bigot her motivation is all based on male hate....she was on question time a few years ago and said all fathers were perverts and teach their daughters how to seduce men etc etc sick....watch this crap its hard to believe....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

and to think she was the biggest voice behind the so called feminism rise in the 1960s and 70s....her revisionary history is very dangerous and is used to brainwash young children especially young girls who are taught to hate men. I know several young girls taught feminism all with A grades in all their exams who have NEVER heard of Lloyd George, the man who fought tooth and nail to get women the vote and working class men the vote and who taxed the rich first and created the welfare state national insurance contributions which later formed the nhs. how can feminists not even teach kids about Lloyd George? because hes a man?

[the truth]

its generalized drivel about an entire group of people. she can say what she likes, ultimately shes driven by hate

[DemolitionRed]

I'm all for freedom of speech but if Greer is allowed to voice her view on tg's from a podium, that talk needs to be balanced by someone else with an opposing view.

My question to her would be, "what's your opinion on hermaphrodites? I bet that would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!

[JoshBB]

I'm all for freedom of speech but if Greer is allowed to voice her view on tg's from a podium, that talk needs to be balanced by someone else with an opposing view.

My question to her would be, "what's your opinion on hermaphrodites? I bet that would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!

:laugh2:

Honestly there is nowhere near as much divide between the genders as people make out - the only difference really would be masculinity and feminity - which are both caused by social influence.

[Scarlett.]

Germaine Greer is such a Harry Potter name, you can just picture her as some crazy old witch cackling away in a shack surrounded by cats.

[Kizzy]

I'm all for freedom of speech but if Greer is allowed to voice her view on tg's from a podium, that talk needs to be balanced by someone else with an opposing view.

My question to her would be, "what's your opinion on hermaphrodites? I bet that would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!

Then have it balanced don't just deny her the right to speak.

The issue is on transgender specifically male to female, I happen to agree with her when she suggests it is rather a patriarchal to give 'woman of the year' to someone that up until 4 months ago was a man.

[Kizzy]

Germaine Greer is such a Harry Potter name, you can just picture her as some crazy old witch cackling away in a shack surrounded by cats.

Is this the gamers opinion?

[Scarlett.]

Is this the gamers opinion?

No, it's my opinion on a bitter old woman who likes to make big statements to the press about vunerable members of society, just so she can stay important.

[Kizzy]

Interesting to see the names being leveled here to this woman for her opinion, twat, witch, tit, tard.

She has the right to speak about it, nobody gives a toss about 'vulnerable members of society' they just like to be seen to be falling in with whatever is currently de rigueur.

[Scarlett.]

Interesting to see the names being leveled here to this woman for her opinion, twat, witch, tit, tard.

She has the right to speak about it, nobody gives a toss about 'vulnerable members of society' they just like to be seen to be falling in with whatever is currently de rigueur.

She has a right to speak about it, and we have every right to call her names, who cares if it's childish, at least she never has to see our name calling, it's never headline news.

[Kizzy]

She has a right to speak about it, and we have every right to call her names, who cares if it's childish, at least she never has to see our name calling, it's never headline news.

Well yes we have freedom of speech....don't we?

[Marsh.]

It's not as if she's a random abusive bitch throwing transphobic language at them. She put her viewpoint across tactfully IMO. Nothing wrong with it.

Like she said, for a born-male who wanted to be known as female she would still use female pronouns for them as a courtesy and respect for their wishes. But that doesn't mean she can't have the opinion that they aren't really women.

[Scarlett.]

It's not as if she's a random abusive bitch throwing transphobic language at them. She put her viewpoint across tactfully IMO. Nothing wrong with it.

Like she said, for a born-male who wanted to be known as female she would still use female pronouns for them as a courtesy and respect for their wishes. But that doesn't mean she can't have the opinion that they aren't really women.

I'm pretty sure trans people are already aware of this, all it really achives is rubbing salt in the wound, it's like going up to a bereaved person and saying "By the way, you're never going to see your parents again, did you know that?" It's something they know. Trans people already have to put up with so much ****, does Germaine really think she's contributing anything by telling the world her opinion? What does she gain from it?

[Marsh.]

I'm pretty sure trans people are already aware of this, all it really achives is rubbing salt in the wound, it's like going up to a bereaved person and saying "By the way, you're never going to see your parents again, did you know that?" It's something they know. Trans people already have to put up with so much ****, does Germaine really think she's contributing anything by telling the world her opinion? What does she gain from it?

Well, it's hardly like she's purposely rubbing it in or anything.

The topic came up and she gave her opinion, as public figures tend to do in interviews/books. Then, as is common in this day and age, weeks and probably months of outrage and countless articles are being made of it and how offensive she and her opinion is.

[Kizzy]

She was due to speak at an event but because her view wasn't that which is considered the correct response, she was rejected.

[Scarlett.]

Well, it's hardly like she's purposely rubbing it in or anything.

The topic came up and she gave her opinion, as public figures tend to do in interviews/books. Then, as is common in this day and age, weeks and probably months of outrage and countless articles are being made of it and how offensive she and her opinion is.

I suppose you are right there, it's probably more down to the newspapers covering it that it gets spread around, perhaps I was too harsh in calling her a witch, but I do get tired of these celebrities on their soapboxes, saying ignorant crap, its not right seeing certain members of society hounded again and again by stuff like this. But I suppose freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, that's who I'd blame. The controversy mongers that call themselves journalists.

[Scarlett.]

Yeah, that's who I'd blame. The controversy mongers that call themselves journalists.

Yeah, I'd imagine the reactions to it are exactly what they expected them to be, and they'll probably try and make it an even bigger thing if people react enough.

[Kizzy]

I suppose you are right there, it's probably more down to the newspapers covering it that it gets spread around, perhaps I was too harsh in calling her a witch, but I do get tired of these celebrities on their soapboxes, saying ignorant crap, its not right seeing certain members of society hounded again and again by stuff like this. But I suppose freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

To be fair she's not really a 'celebrity' and whatever she may be ignorant on the subject of equality she isn't.
She is asked to give her opinion on these issues which is why she offers it, if that is rejected then it's not her problem.

[Scarlett.]

Then have it balanced don't just deny her the right to speak.

The issue is on transgender specifically male to female, I happen to agree with her when she suggests it is rather a patriarchal to give 'woman of the year' to someone that up until 4 months ago was a man.

I've just seen this post, and I do agree there, the whole fuss around Caitlyn Jenner has been OTT, and tbh, I wouldn't give a "_____ of the year" award to anyone who caused someone elses death through dangerous driving. Definately an undeserved award. In fact I can see why this lead to Germaine saying what she did, even if I find it ignorant.

[kirklancaster]

No she's just a TIT.

:laugh: And an exceedingly, ugly, misshapen tit too. She has not one feminine hormone in her body - which is why she has rattled on about 'Female Eunuchs' and other crap. It's no great shakes to drop out from a race you cannot compete in. Time she shut up.

[the truth]

she called all fathers perverts on question time on mainstream tv and no one said a word about it because it was male hate so that's fine

[Marsh.]

she called all fathers perverts on question time on mainstream tv and no one said a word about it because it was male hate so that's fine

"All fathers"? Do you have a link to this?

[the truth]

"All fathers"? Do you have a link to this?

yes I posted it on the previous page if youd bothered to look....but you aren't being sincere are you?

[Marsh.]

yes I posted it on the previous page if youd bothered to look....but you aren't being sincere are you?

:unsure: Uh, what?

[Marsh.]

Just watched the video and at no point does she say "all father's are perverts".

She seems to be putting two things together in that video and coming to some bizarre conclusions that I can't begin to even agree with but nowhere does she suggest anything about any fathers being perverts, let alone all of them.

[the truth]

uh what? what an ignorant response

Heres some more of your hero germaine greer the man hater spouting her perverted male hating poison


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

[Pete.]

Not Germaine

[Marsh.]

uh what? what an ignorant response

Heres some more of your hero germaine greer the man hater spouting her perverted male hating poison


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

Excuse me? How am I being ignorant?

My hero? :conf:

Re-read what I posted, try to comprehend properly what it says and then try to respond again.

[Northern Monkey]

she called all fathers perverts on question time on mainstream tv and no one said a word about it because it was male hate so that's fine

I remember seeing that when it was on.She has a very warped view of men.A very bitter woman.

[Denver]

Her opinion is like an orgasm

[Marsh.]

Her opinion is like an orgasm

Everybody has one? No so true.

Arseholes on the other hand...

[Denver]

Everybody has one? No so true.

Arseholes on the other hand...

Once you had one you had them all

[Raph]

She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. Quite hypocritical given all that shes said.

:clap1: Josh you're the man! (pun intended haha)

[Jack_]

Meh, probs not a very popular opinion (and i don't really care either way) but I don't think you an truly be female or male (unless you already are, through birth) until you have the operation. But of course you can identify as whatever you want, and we should stand by you with that.

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

You are of course both factually correct, but people are primarily and outwardly identified by their gender, not their biological sex (which is what the terms 'male' and 'female' signify). Gender is socially constructed, fluid, and can be altered, and as such, if you are a biological male or female, and choose to identify as the opposite gender (or neither, for that matter), that's what you are. Until genital inspections are carried out on a regular basis, nobody will be identified by their sex, and that makes all this talk of 'she's not a real woman' or 'he can never be a real man' ultimately futile.

As a society we still have an unnecessary obsession with anatomical differences between humans, and are convinced that the be all and end all of transgenderism is to 'have the op', when it's far more complex than that and actually a lot of trans people wish not to...and really, why should they be compelled to? Unless you wish to sleep with someone, what's hidden underneath their clothes is the business of nobody else but them.

There is far more to gender identity than genitalia, and this is a disappointing view from Germaine, who often speaks a lot of sense.

[arista]

"and this is a disappointing view from Germaine, who often speaks a lot of sense. "

NO Jack
she is Real Old Now
let her Spit it all out
I Love her views.


Feel The Force

[the truth]

I remember seeing that when it was on.She has a very warped view of men.A very bitter woman.

the most vile bigoted sexist poison ive ever heard on the bbc and most other channels.

[DemolitionRed]

Then have it balanced don't just deny her the right to speak.

The issue is on transgender specifically male to female, I happen to agree with her when she suggests it is rather a patriarchal to give 'woman of the year' to someone that up until 4 months ago was a man.

Just because her gender change became official this year doesn't mean she was a man prior to her op. Transgender is about self-identity and not about sex reassignment.

[DemolitionRed]

There is far more to gender identity than genitalia, and this is a disappointing view from Germaine, who often speaks a lot of sense.

I agree.

As far as freedom of speech goes, we have to remember that not everybody out there gets to give a lecture on a prestigious platform. This isn't about a right but about privilege. If it were more about a right, then it'd be a thing everybody could do. Expressing an opinion is one of those; expressing an opinion in a position of declared authority... is not.

Instead of questioning why most youths of today comfortably except TG's for being male or female, we should be celebrating it. This lecture feels uncomfortably like a mission and its not one that sits well with me.

[Kizzy]

Just because her gender change became official this year doesn't mean she was a man prior to her op. Transgender is about self-identity and not about sex reassignment.

When you ask someone to speak from their specific field of expertise you may have some predetermined expectations, if I wanted to arrange a lecture on creationism I wouldn't invite Richard Dawkins to speak.
It's I would say a similar principle here.

[the truth]

why aren't you all just as offended when she branded all fathers perverts who teach their daughters how to seduce men when they kiss them?

[user104658]

why aren't you all just as offended when she branded all fathers perverts who teach their daughters how to seduce men when they kiss them?

Ahh if I let myself get offended every time someone opened their mouth to blow sh*t-bubbles, I'd never get anything else done.

She obviously has her own daddy issues. It's her problem really :shrug:

[Marsh.]

why aren't you all just as offended when she branded all fathers perverts who teach their daughters how to seduce men when they kiss them?

How do you know they weren't? The incident to which you refer was five years ago and not the topic of this thread.

[the truth]

Ahh if I let myself get offended every time someone opened their mouth to blow sh*t-bubbles, I'd never get anything else done.

She obviously has her own daddy issues. It's her problem really :shrug:

shes come out with her male hating perverted drivel for years and gotten away with it? yet we only decide to take offence when its transgender people? men are fair game? the sheer undiluted hypocrisy and double standards in pc UK are mindbogglingly dumb

[Marsh.]

shes come out with her male hating perverted drivel for years and gotten away with it? yet we only decide to take offence when its transgender people? men are fair game? the sheer undiluted hypocrisy and double standards in pc UK are mindbogglingly dumb

Where has anyone in here said men are fair game?

You're doing what Greer does in the youtube video you posted, bringing two unrelated things together and coming up with an extreme result.

[the truth]

How do you know they weren't? The incident to which you refer was five years ago and not the topic of this thread.

you condone her filth and anti male anti father filth and bigotry and you and many others have had ample opportunity to denounce her anti male bile and you've chosen not to , that means you condone her vile hatred and bigotry

[Marsh.]

you condone her filth and anti male anti father filth and bigotry and you and many others have had ample opportunity to denounce her anti male bile and you've chosen not to , that means you condone her vile hatred and bigotry

Of course it does.

[the truth]

How do you know they weren't? The incident to which you refer was five years ago and not the topic of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

4 years ago:nono:shes repeated this filth umpteen times since

[the truth]

Of course it does.

glad you agree

[Marsh.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

4 years ago:nono:shes repeated this filth umpteen times since

Well do you honestly expect this thread to go into detail about every single thing she's said that they disagree with?

Stop trying to make the thread about something it isn't.

If you want to discuss her comments on fathers, then make a thread.

[Kizzy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjVDYPAuRh0

4 years ago:nono:shes repeated this filth umpteen times since

This is the 3rd time you've posted this vid, she's not the first to suggest there is a psycho-sexual aspect to family interaction isn't it a Freudian perspective?

[the truth]

its out germaine greer being bat**** crazy and a man hater. if you cant see the correlation that's your problem. you always side against men anyway marsh. shes written books on the physical beauty of pre pubescent boys and celebrated having sex with a married man as being empowering for her and other women. your hero is a sicko

[Marsh.]

its out germaine greer being bat**** crazy and a man hater. if you cant see the correlation that's your problem. you always side against men anyway marsh. shes written books on the physical beauty of pre pubescent boys and celebrated having sex with a married man as being empowering for her and other women. your hero is a sicko

So now Germaine Greer is my hero?

And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously? :pat:

[the truth]

So now Germaine Greer is my hero?

And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously? :pat:

you condone her bigotry you choose to defend and you choose not to criticize this vile hateful man hater. so you clearly admire these things about her. no wonder people have such a low opinion of you:nono:

[Marsh.]

you condone her bigotry you choose to defend and you choose not to criticize this vile hateful man hater. so you clearly admire these things about her. no wonder people have such a low opinion of you:nono:

I haven't condoned anything.

So, back to the actual topic....

[the truth]

I haven't condoned anything.

So, back to the actual topic....

stop side tracking the thread which is about your hero, the vile germaine greer

[Marsh.]

about your hero, the vile germaine greer

All Hail Greer

[Northern Monkey]

shes come out with her male hating perverted drivel for years and gotten away with it? yet we only decide to take offence when its transgender people? men are fair game? the sheer undiluted hypocrisy and double standards in pc UK are mindbogglingly dumb

On this occasion i totally agree with you.

[the truth]

On this occasion i totally agree with you.

cheers. she needs to focus her twisted eyes away from her make believe petty drivel onto the worst parts of the middle east where there truly is horrific misogyny and abuse of children , disabled and everyone who doesn't conform is a jihad to be stoned

[Kizzy]

cheers. she needs to focus her twisted eyes away from her make believe petty drivel onto the worst parts of the middle east where there truly is horrific misogyny and abuse of children , disabled and everyone who doesn't conform is a jihad to be stoned

That again is a discussion for another thread.

[the truth]

That again is a discussion for another thread.

I think you are wrong, these topics are all inter connected

[arista]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3583808/thumbs/o-BBC-570.jpg?6


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/26/germaine-greer-not-backing-down-trans-views-cardiff-university_n_8388542.html?1445862465

[the truth]

shes class, to think anyone ever took this attention seeking spiteful bigot seriously

[Marsh.]

She makes good points.

[Jamie89]

I think you are wrong, these topics are all inter connected

Yes. When I think Germaine Greer, I think Jihad :whistle: :joker:

[user104658]

I'd say it's fairly evident that she is not a feminist, but is in fact a misandrist. Most of her rhetoric is anti-male rather than pro-female, and it's perfectly clear that she finds the thought of a biological male identifying as female utterly repulsive.

[Niall]

It's not really her problem as to whether she thinks transgendered woman is a woman though? She's not going through it so her entire option is irrelevant. Moreover she's not in that person's body, thinking and feeling everything that they do, so I don't get why she gets to determine whether or not they are what gender they feel they are.

Shame really. I thought she was pretty cool before, if a little brusque.

[arista]

She makes good points.


You Are Most Wise Marsh

[bots]

Germaine Greer is an ignorant fool. Always has been

[Ammi]

I'd say it's fairly evident that she is not a feminist, but is in fact a misandrist. Most of her rhetoric is anti-male rather than pro-female, and it's perfectly clear that she finds the thought of a biological male identifying as female utterly repulsive.

..yeah I completely agree with that and Kaitlyn is female so she really should be pro her as well...it's 2015 and mind-sets have to progress so I think that a transgender being Woman of the Year would be a good and positive thing with that and if she deserves it on merit then well done if it is given to her...

[arista]

Germaine Greer is an ignorant fool. Always has been



No its good to have another view

[Kizzy]

Her analogy however makes sense, in a very literal sense.
Technically transgender women live aswomen ... does that logically make them female?

[Vicky.]

I ummed and ahhed about posting this. This is a topic I am looking into deeply right now after having my eyes well and truly opened..this is not really anything to do with Greer but I didn't want to make a new thread and it 'fits' here so... So, at the risk of being flamed, and possibly even demodded as apparently my views are transphobic to some (though the word has lost all meaning, as I am about to talk about) here we go.

I have been discussing this no end on another site, WITH a few trans women aswell, who have joined in with the conversations even though at times some views expressed made them uncomfortable. They have answered a variety of questions from a 'real person' kind of view instead of the endless random 'studies' that have been done and a bunch of copy/pasting from random online articles. They have helped shape my new view on this issue. It helps to speak to the real people things like this affects, rather than listen to the rhetoric in the media that makes out the views of trans-activists are the voice of the majority of trans people.

I now believe transexualism is BDD and/or mental illness. And it took a lot to post that on a site where everyone is so liberal and 'forward thinking'. I actually think the recent influx of trans issues are a huge step BACKWARDS for feminism in some cases, and are actually very homophobic in others. Again, will explain in the following essay.

All of this talk of 'gender identity' is utter tosh. Gender identity is merely something that has been drummed into us by society. Anyone who disagrees with me, I ask you this. Instead of labeling me a bigot and disappearing..answer one question. Exactly what does 'living as a woman/man mean' WITHOUT resorting to stereotypes, and without mentioning tits, vagina or penises. If you have an answer, you are amazing as this discussion has gone on for 3 days now and not one poster of at least 1000 has been able to answer this. Not even posters who have transitioned (and in one case detransitioned too) themselves. Best anyone could come up with is the likes of being pregnant, breastfeeding, having periods..etc. All things that are impossible for any trans woman to experience. Flaws were pointed out in this, being infertile women and such. So this was also rejected as 'living as a woman'. Back to nothing...so any answers are appreciated before you reject what I said..

If a baby was born in a totally gender neutral environment, and segregated to live in a gender neutral world until adulthood..would they know the difference (besides biologically) between men and women? No. Its all stuff society inflicts on us. There have been no studies to prove this, granted, as it would be child abuse to carry out such an experiment. However, we have had cases of babies raised by animals, said baby thinks it is the same as the animals raising it, a baby raised by dogs will walk on hands and feet, will growl and bark to communicate and will bite to defend itself. Once back in the human world it has to be taught, all over again how to be human. There are documented cases of this. Ergo, a baby is born with the ability to stay alive and NOTHING else. Everything else is a direct product of its surroundings.

As such, I reject the idea of 'gender identity' meaning someone is actually the opposite sex than they were born. Gender, is a totally social construct.

Which in turn, means I reject the 'born in the wrong body' stuff, in the sense of it meaning anything to do with actual sex.

And again, because of this, I really believe that instead of deciding that a child who says for example they are a boy trapped in a girls body is trans and lining up hormones and surgeries for said child (which IS happening too...children :( )a better solution would be to allow them to 'live as a boy' in the sense that trans people mean when they say this. Allow said child to wear boys clothes, give them a buzzcut if they want one, allow said child to play with boys toys, allow them to embrace their feminine side, if this is what they are feeling, and basically just let them be whoever the **** they want. Ignore gender stereotypes completely.

An example of 'knowing they were in the wrong body' given was feeling uncomfortable with the idea of puberty, not wanting to go through it, not wanting breasts to develop, not wanting to grow hair on chests and such. This does NOT mean someone is trans. I was terrified of puberty to the point that when I knew it was coming I cried myself to sleep most nights. I did not want to have periods, I didn't want to develop. I wanted to keep my boyish body forever, I didn't want change. These days, this would make me a prime candidate to be lined up for hormones/counseling/surgery. But its simply not the case and shouldn't be either.

The extensive counseling the trans women (only spoke to women, no trans men showed up as far as I know) received...they felt that this was very much to do with gender stereotyping also. One even said, which upset me so much, that they wished someone had just sat them down and said 'its ok to be you, men do not have to be manly, a feminine man does not mean you are a woman' as they wouldn't have gone as far as they have (said trans woman is on the waiting list for bottom surgery in November and does not know if she wants to go through with it anymore) if this had happened. Now, THIS is the kind of thing I would expect to be discussed before beginning any kind of treatment, no? Well in the 3 examples I spoke to, this didn't happen. They may well have had a bad experience, but I have nothing to compare it to so I shall take their word until I am told otherwise.

So yeah, conclusion, born in the wrong body is false IMO. As gender is simply something we made up ourselves, where sex is biological fact. The ONLY difference between men and women is genitals, hormones and body parts. Thats where it stops. If you believe you should have a vagina, its a BDD issue. If you believe you want a penis, again BDD. There is no living as a woman/man. As soon as society accepts this, we can begin steps to make people more comfortable in themselves without the feelings of need for invasive surgery (that is regretted in some cases)


------------

I will now move onto snippets of quotes that have been posted in here and give my (new) views on them.



She is a TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

I dont recognise TERFs as feminists at all, because they are essentially saying that the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina.

'trans-exclusionary radical feminist' just sounds ridiculous. I guess it is correct in theory but its just used as an insult, same as 'cis' which tends to be spat out rather than said. I class myself as a 'terf' now if I must put myself into a box based on opinions, but I do not class myself as a feminist. Not in the sense of feminism as it is known today, which is essentially man hating. I do not however, think the most important part of being a woman is having a vagina. I believe the ONLY part of being a woman is having a vagina, in a sense. As explained above.

I know trans people get abuse for being what they are, and that is disgusting. But this is not a one way street. I know you (not you personally, anyone reading this) probably won't read this site because of the name of it, but I will post it anyway. https://terfisaslur.com/

This site documents a little of what goes on in the social media world, and I am sure you will see the abuse is definitely not one sided. I specifically refer you to the section '4. Cotton ceiling and autogynephilia'. I cannot get the concept of 'cotton ceiling' of my mind as it is just pure vile. This page is full of posts such as the following

"cisbians using 'I'm just not attracted to penises'

Except noone is attracted to penises. Noone is attracted to vaginas. Noone is attracted to genitals. You're attracted to the person.

When you first see someone you're attracted to them as a person. You don't know what genitals they have, implying you can tell a trans person from a cis person is cissexist and would force you to admit you are attracted to trans people before you find out they're trans.

So ask yourself why you'd be attracted to a transperson until you find out they're trans or what genitals they have?

Hint. Its because you're a sad little transmisogynist and you deserve to have your teeth beaten in

Essentially, broken down...lesbians should **** a penis or they are bigots. No. Sorry I don't go with that at all. And this is bullying, and ****ing homophobic to boot. The decision to allow anyone who 'identifies' as a woman to 'be' a woman, even while retaining a dick is what has lead to this. Do you think this is acceptable? If you allow anyone to identify however they like, you are condoning this and accepting it as truth... This was the main thing that made me think 'wtf, my views are messed up' tbh. I should add to this, the 'women' using these kind of insults are either 'trans women' who have remained with a penis and transactivists (who may or may not be trans themselves) and random blokes who have decided that they think they are female (or are using it as an excuse). These people believe lesbians should shag them and they should be given access to women only spaces. This is where the current trans movement is taking us, and I disagree with it in its entirety.

Also to take the view of 'genitals don't matter, the person matters'...surely we are to accept that...a person is a person. Thats it. So again, kinda disproving any of the 'born in the wrong' body stuff using their own quotes...

The rest of the site is an interesting read and kinda shows how some 'trans' think of cis' people. Utter hatred, that we have been told is only ever directed AT them. Oddly enough, yet again the trans women I spoke to have not witnessed hate towards them, not in the sense of getting messages telling them to die or wishing them harm, something that they say (and is documented above really) is prominent the other way around. They also reject the concept of cotton ceiling and use the term coercive rape, which is EXACTLY what cotton ceiling is. They tell me the cotton ceiling concept is widely accepted in the trans female world, by those who chose to keep their male bodies..and also that transfemale on transfemale relationship/sex is generally rejected. Why is this, if everyone else is to accept that you are females I wonder? If everyone else is expected to believe you are a lesbian with a penis, why is the idea of sleeping with another lesbian with a penis such a turn off to you? Its only genitals, as you say... Sorry, lesbians with penises do not exist. That is known as a straight man.

You may notice at this point I have spoken mostly about male to female trans. This is because female to male, do not expect gay men to **** them. Gay men find the idea disgusting (as they do not want to shag a vagina, essentially). Owen Jones responded with disgust at the idea he would sleep with a transman who still had a vagina. Fair enough. I understand that...gays don't do vagina, but then how can he then compare lesbians who express concerns over the cotton ceiling concept to homophobic men expressing “gay panic”. WHY should lesbian women be expected to give blowjobs to men who 'think' they are women, and shag dicks, while giving a free pass to gay men in the opposite situation?

I may come across as a raving feminist in this..but this is mainly a matter about womens rights, as as hard as this is for these guys to understand lesbians ARE WOMEN. Lesbians should feel under no pressure to sleep with guys, however the guy dresses himself up.

To accept the new 'anyone who thinks they are this, is' rhetoric is to condone behavior such as the above, where men on a power trip USE the trans-umbrella to intimidate women. It is accepting the blatant homophobic views such 'trans' have and condoning them. If acknowledging this makes me transphobic, I really couldn't give a flying crap. If you accept that everyone is what they think they are and anyone who disagrees is transphobic (which is the current line), lets assume you are a straight guy. You get chatting to a girl, take them home and discover she actually has a dick. She tells you she has a female brain though. Do you carry on? I doubt many would say yes honestly. Now we have to remember, people are people..genitals mean nothing. You originally being attracted to the person until you find out they are 'trans', makes you transphobic. Not nice eh..and makes no ****ing sense. You do not truly believe that people who 'think' they are something actually are if you would not carry on in a situation as above. Hmm...so you now recognize there is a difference between a trans woman and a woman you say?

No transgender woman has the XX chromosome so clinically, as they still have only XY chromosomes and not XX chromosomes they are not biologically women. That doesn't mean to say that if they have a need to live their lives as a women they shouldn't do that.

EXACTLY, but again, we are back to what IS living as a woman? Dressing like one? People should be able to dress however they wish to without being told they are dressing like a girl/boy. I don't want to get into repeating myself as this post will be long enough to begin with...

Yes but gender identity isn't something thats assigned by chomosones so it comes down to how you chose to define man and woman I suppose
Yup...social concepts, again.


------------------




In short really, as I know I have waffled on a lot here..I no longer believe the born in the wrong body rhetoric. I do not believe in female brains and male brains (no this hasn't been proven, despite what people shout..opposite is more true tbh). I believe gender is an entirely social concept and we would do so much more good breaking down said social stereotypes than we are doing by offering surgeries and attempting to refine the words 'male' and 'female'. I believe aspects of the current position on transpeople are homophobic towards lesbians. And other aspects are dragging us back hundreds of years of progress in womens rights.

Until we have a definition on what 'trans' actually is, I reject it all completely. I refuse to play along with this ridiculous notion that anyone who thinks they are something is that. This meaning a guy who simply says he is a girl in his head, is NOT a girl. Sorry, they are not. And vice versa.

We do not treat anorexia by giving out lipo to the anorexic person. We do not agree with them that yes, they are fat and should lose some weight, then help them to do so. We support them in all ways we can, but do not indulge their illness.

Trans-activists time would be better used on breaking down social stereotypes than on trying to re-define the meaning of the word woman or man. They need to LISTEN to the actual trans community also, especially about the matters that are prominent in the media. Pushing their own agenda while drowning out the voices who are against them is wrong. The way things are going are just going to breed more hatred. From both sides and it will not end well.

We need to be able to have a proper discussion about stuff without people being shouted down as bigots for asking questions and expressing opinions. I do not class expressing genuine concern for people being told they are trans or putting across my own views in this way as being transphobic. To me, transphobia is actively hating trans people, wishing them harm and treating them different to any other person. I will NEVER treat a trans person as anything less than any other human.

I hope the trans women I have spoken about in here do not mind this, but here are links to their blogs and such, which are well worth a read. They go deeper into the stuff I have written, and cover other areas..and much more eloquently than I could ever do.

http://transavant.tumblr.com/archive
http://mirandayardley.com/

Miranda Yardley is a wonderful trans woman who has taken a LOT of abuse for daring to speak out against the transactivists and say 'this is not what we want'. I do not know too much about Helen but she has spoken with me and many others about her own personal experiences and the views of other trans people she knows.

This is only my opinion, but I do feel things should be able to be spoken about without the shutting down of all discussion with the scream of 'transphobia' just because someone doesn't think a guy who puts on a skirt and says he is a woman is a woman.

Peace out

/puts on flameproof suit

[Vicky.]

I see jack reading. I am going to get a proper debate/convo for sure :amazed:

[Marsh.]

Renee vs Bear teas

[T*]

We do not treat anorexia by giving out lipo to the anorexic person. We do not agree with them that yes, they are fat and should lose some weight, then help them to do so. We support them in all ways we can, but do not indulge their illness.
Apples to Oranges.
It's pretty damn sad to see this TBH. This is not the same.
At least if the trans person gets the surgery they can live life happily- instead of feeling uncomfortable. Theres no real risk behind that. Giving an anorexic person lipo wouldn't make them happier because it'd kill them.

There are so many things wrong with your post that id rather not address right now because it's almost 3AM but in your logic it seems that being gay would be a mental illness too would it not? Why not send us to one of those camps and straighten us out because it's so obviously a mental illness- we shouldn't live life happy.

[Vicky.]

Apples to Oranges.
It's pretty damn sad to see this TBH. This is not the same.
At least if the trans person gets the surgery they can live life happily- instead of feeling uncomfortable. Theres no real risk behind that. Giving an anorexic person lipo wouldn't make them happier because it'd kill them.

There are so many things wrong with your post that id rather not address right now because it's almost 3AM but in your logic it seems that being gay would be a mental illness too would it not? Why not send us to one of those camps and straighten us out because it's so obviously a mental illness- we shouldn't live life happy.

How on earth do you figure that?! There is proof the homosexuality is a real thing. There is NO proof that transgender is actually being trapped in the wrong body. And I just cannot make sense of once you strip away the society induced gender norms..the ONLY differences are physical. So how can anyone be in the body of the wrong sex?

Also cannot see how my post has been taken to be against gays tbh, given the whole thing that made me think about this all properly was abuse of lesbians due to the current trans movement:S

[Rob!]

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

[T*]

How on earth do you figure that?!

Right- If someone feels like they're born into the opposite gender, it's not too different to being born with an attraction to the same gender rather than the opposite... That's why they're in the LGBT community, right? Because you've lumped trans people with having a mental illness because they've always felt like they've been the wrong gender all their life then... It's almost like saying that gay people have a mental illness because they've always felt attracted to the same gender...

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well because as I said it's almost 3am

[T*]

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

This is what I was getting at

[Vicky.]

I'm sorry but I cannot actually cope with comparing the need to change your gender as a mental illness.
The whole "born in the wrong body" thing is precisely that. It is a "mental" instinct but only in exactly the same way as straight and gay, asexual, bisexual etc people grow up, develop and mature, knowing who they do and do not find attractive. That feeling that a straight person feels about the prospect of falling in love with somebody of the same gender is, I presume, the precise same feeling that someone who needs to change their sex feels - an imovable instinct, the way their brain is constructed.

OK, fair enough. Can you answer the question about what 'living as a woman' or 'living as a man' is. Without any 'wearing dresses' 'being soft and emotional' or any other attributes that society deems to be 'male' or 'female'?

[Vicky.]

Right- If someone feels like they're born into the opposite gender, it's not too different to being born with an attraction to the same gender rather than the opposite... That's why they're in the LGBT community, right? Because you've lumped trans people with having a mental illness because they've always felt like they've been the wrong gender all their life then... It's almost like saying that gay people have a mental illness because they've always felt attracted to the same gender...

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well because as I said it's almost 3am

It really is though, being attracted to and 'being' is not the same thing. There are people who genuinely believe they have been born the wrong species. People who believe they have been born able bodied, when they are really disabled. People who believe they have been born the wrong race That kind of thing. Why is being trapped in the wrong sex's body not seen in the same way that these peoples 'thoughts/beliefs' are?

[T*]

This site documents a little of what goes on in the social media world, and I am sure you will see the abuse is definitely not one sided. I specifically refer you to the section '4. Cotton ceiling and autogynephilia'. I cannot get the concept of 'cotton ceiling' of my mind as it is just pure vile. This page is full of posts such as the following

Quote:
"cisbians using 'I'm just not attracted to penises'

Except noone is attracted to penises. Noone is attracted to vaginas. Noone is attracted to genitals. You're attracted to the person.

When you first see someone you're attracted to them as a person. You don't know what genitals they have, implying you can tell a trans person from a cis person is cissexist and would force you to admit you are attracted to trans people before you find out they're trans.

So ask yourself why you'd be attracted to a transperson until you find out they're trans or what genitals they have?

Hint. Its because you're a sad little transmisogynist and you deserve to have your teeth beaten in
Essentially, broken down...lesbians should **** a penis or they are bigots. No. Sorry I don't go with that at all. And this is bullying, and ****ing homophobic to boot. The decision to allow anyone who 'identifies' as a woman to 'be' a woman, even while retaining a dick is what has lead to this. Do you think this is acceptable? If you allow anyone to identify however they like, you are condoning this and accepting it as truth... This was the main thing that made me think 'wtf, my views are messed up' tbh. I should add to this, the 'women' using these kind of insults are either 'trans women' who have remained with a penis and transactivists (who may or may not be trans themselves) and random blokes who have decided that they think they are female (or are using it as an excuse). These people believe lesbians should shag them and they should be given access to women only spaces. This is where the current trans movement is taking us, and I disagree with it in its entirety.

Like
What

I do not believe this nor do I think all trans people are going to act like this... This is really likely a small percentage of them and they all shouldn't be scrutinised just for some small percentages views...

[Rob!]

OK, fair enough. Can you answer the question about what 'living as a woman' or 'living as a man' is. Without any 'wearing dresses' 'being soft and emotional' or any other attributes that society deems to be 'male' or 'female'?

It's all to do with instinct - it has nothing to do, initially at least, with the social constructs of how men and women are perceived to behave on a day to day basis. It's the different hormones and feelings that men and women separately feel that their brain ultimately rejects. After that is when it turns into a rebellion from dresses/makeup/long hair/ sport/ facial hair etc, because the constructs of stereotypical feminity and masculinity are all around us it adds to the internal pressure; hence a strong urge to disassociate from it all from a very young age.

[T*]

It's all to do with instinct - it has nothing to do, initially at least, with the social constructs of how men and women are perceived to behave on a day to day basis. It's the different hormones and feelings that men and women separately feel that their brain ultimately rejects. After that is when it turns into a rebellion from dresses/makeup/long hair/ sport/ facial hair etc, because the constructs of stereotypical feminity and masculinity are all around us it adds to the internal pressure; hence a strong urge to disassociate from it all from a very young age.

:clap1:

[T*]

I feel like trans shouldn't be put in the same basket as 'I sexually identify as a cactus' stuff either...

[Vicky.]

Like
What

I do not believe this nor do I think all trans people are going to act like this... This is really likely a small percentage of them and they all shouldn't be scrutinised just for some small percentages views...

If you accept that anyone can identify as anything they feel they are. AND that treating a trans person in any way other than the sex they identify as, regardless of anything else is transphobia..I can tailor this to you as I know you are a gay guy, makes it a bit easier.

You would therfore sleep with a trans man who had a vagina?

I may be screwed up in thinking at the moment as I have had a LOT to take in over the past few days...but this makes sense to me at the moment

[Vicky.]

I feel like trans shouldn't be put in the same basket as 'I sexually identify as a cactus' stuff either...

Why not though? If the person genuinely does believe themselves to be a cactus. Its essentially no different :S

I have never heard of the cactus thing though. Seems to be mainly animals, races and disabilities.

[Vicky.]

It's all to do with instinct - it has nothing to do, initially at least, with the social constructs of how men and women are perceived to behave on a day to day basis. It's the different hormones and feelings that men and women separately feel that their brain ultimately rejects. After that is when it turns into a rebellion from dresses/makeup/long hair/ sport/ facial hair etc, because the constructs of stereotypical feminity and masculinity are all around us it adds to the internal pressure; hence a strong urge to disassociate from it all from a very young age.

I don't understand this at all?

[T*]

You would therfore sleep with a trans man who had a vagina?

I may be screwed up in thinking at the moment as I have had a LOT to take in over the past few days...but this makes sense to me at the moment

Maybe :shrug:

[T*]

I don't understand this at all?

are you actually being serious

[Vicky.]

Maybe :shrug:

OK this makes not much sense to me at all then. Because this means, you would essentially shag a woman who just told you that she identified as a man.

[Vicky.]

are you actually being serious

Yes I am..as I don't believe I have any different 'instincts' to guys? I have naturally different hormones which help me change to bear children and have a womans body, a softer voice (generally) and such but I don't understand what is meant by living as a woman is all about instincts

I am genuinely not trying to troll or anything here. I know this is what you are thinking now just from the reply you just gave me

[Jack_]

I see jack reading. I am going to get a proper debate/convo for sure :amazed:

:joker:

Honestly I hate the fact I get anxious whenever someone posts or bumps a gender thread on here these days, it shouldn't be like that but most of them used to just end in people being really nasty for no reason :/

Anyway...

You started well by acknowledging that gender is a social construct, I actually get a little excited when people come to this realisation - and it's about time more people did! All of what you said is true, the stereotypes that encompass traditional notions of what constitute a 'man' and a 'woman' are by their very nature socially constructed, they are not in any way inherent. The only difference human beings have on this planet is chromosomal makeup and anatomy, which are biological and refer to one's 'sex', not 'gender'. I've been saying this for years to no avail and being mocked when it's simply the truth.

I should quickly point out it's 3am, I need to sleep and am travelling tomorrow so am rush replying to this and won't be cross checking everything you said. I believe you mentioned the fact that some trans people don't wish to 'transition' and have sex-reassignment surgery and you're right - it's actually more common than you might think. I remember reading a blog once which basically boiled this issue down and really struck a chord with me - can you imagine just how awful it must be to feel like you have to go through such life altering surgical procedures - the results of which only you and a select few people will ever see - just to feel like you're at last ~truly~ the gender of which you identify with. The person who wrote this was quite cutting and dismissive of the idea, basically saying **** that and asking why should he be compelled to do that? And he's right. The problem is of course is that we live in a society which has constructed this binary of men and women, with various gender stereotypes and roles associated with them - and many people feel as if they have to conform to one of these. The fact that many people place genitalia when it comes to defining gender (mistaking it with biological sex) on such a pedestal doesn't help matters either. In an ideal world people could dress how they want, act how they want and live in an environment which doesn't perpetuate what is ultimately a completely pointless binary. There are very little reasons for us to divide people into 'men' and 'women' when you think about it. What's the point in segregated toilets? The answer: socially constructed fears and taboos. What's the point in toys targeted at boys and girls? The answer: gender stereotypes. If it weren't so late I'd think of more examples but ultimately my point is it's unnecessary for us to live in such a society where people are boxed and categorised, humans like to label things to make sense of a complex world but that doesn't change the fact it is complex.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there but I think my point is that trans people who wish to ~officially~ transition and have the op often do so because they believe that that's the 'only way' the gender they identify with will align with their sex, and we as a society are to blame for this. It's us who seem to see anatomy and genitalia as the true marker of one's identity but yet it isn't. Your gender, and the socially constructed roles and stereotypes that go along with it - are how you identify yourself and other people identify you. That is what gender is, it's what people see and how you outwardly present yourself. Nobody self identifies or is indentified by other people via their sex, for that to be a thing you'd have to inspect people's bodies upon meeting them and that just doesn't happen. It's not relevant to anything or anyone unless you sleep with them. We need to move away from being a society that believes 'well you aren't a woman until you have tits and a vag!!!!!' and 'you ain't coming in this women's toilet to piss in private with a dick mate!!!'. It's damaging and defeatist, not to mention pointless.

As for the rest of the stuff about these deranged people on Tumblr and the like, all I'd say is you have to be very careful about taking these people at face value and assuming they're representative of the entire trans movement. They're not. You're always going to get some crazies on the internet and most of these people are just looking for a reaction to some ludicrous ideas, don't pander to them. It's just the same as how radical feminists do not represent the entirety of indeed the majority of the feminist movement (which you fleetingly mentioned at some point), it's annoying how feminism has been tarnished because people believe all feminists are man haters when that's simply not the case.

Anyway, that's enough for now lol

[T*]

OK this makes not much sense to me at all then. Because this means, you would essentially shag a woman who just told you that she identified as a man.


Let's not try and trip people up and then wildly accuse them

It's about the person tbqh- and if they were looked my type and I had fallen in love with them (not just a ****ing one night stand, like WHAT are you trying to say, that someone would come up to me and say 'hey I'm a man' and I'd jump in the bed with them?!) it just really depends and how long I've known them for etc...

[Vicky.]

:joker:

Honestly I hate the fact I get anxious whenever someone posts or bumps a gender thread on here these days, it shouldn't be like that but most of them used to just end in people being really nasty for no reason :/

Anyway...

You started well by acknowledging that gender is a social construct, I actually get a little excited when people come to this realisation - and it's about time more people did! All of what you said is true, the stereotypes that encompass traditional notions of what constitute a 'man' and a 'woman' are by their very nature socially constructed, they are not in any way inherent. The only difference human beings have on this planet is chromosomal makeup and anatomy, which are biological and refer to one's 'sex', not 'gender'. I've been saying this for years to no avail and being mocked when it's simply the truth.

I should quickly point out it's 3am, I need to sleep and am travelling tomorrow so am rush replying to this and won't be cross checking everything you said. I believe you mentioned the fact that some trans people don't wish to 'transition' and have sex-reassignment surgery and you're right - it's actually more common than you might think. I remember reading a blog once which basically boiled this issue down and really struck a chord with me - can you imagine just how awful it must be to feel like you have to go through such life altering surgical procedures - the results of which only you and a select few people will ever see - just to feel like you're at last ~truly~ the gender of which you identify with. The person who wrote this was quite cutting and dismissive of the idea, basically saying **** that and asking why should he be compelled to do that? And he's right. The problem is of course is that we live in a society which has constructed this binary of men and women, with various gender stereotypes and roles associated with them - and many people feel as if they have to conform to one of these. The fact that many people place genitalia when it comes to defining gender (mistaking it with biological sex) on such a pedestal doesn't help matters either. In an ideal world people could dress how they want, act how they want and live in an environment which doesn't perpetuate what is ultimately a completely pointless binary. There are very little reasons for us to divide people into 'men' and 'women' when you think about it. What's the point in segregated toilets? The answer: socially constructed fears and taboos. What's the point in toys targeted at boys and girls? The answer: gender stereotypes. If it weren't so late I'd think of more examples but ultimately my point is it's unnecessary for us to live in such a society where people are boxed and categorised, humans like to label things to make sense of a complex world but that doesn't change the fact it is complex.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there but I think my point is that trans people who wish to ~officially~ transition and have the op often do so because they believe that that's the 'only way' the gender they identify with will align with their sex, and we as a society are to blame for this. It's us who seem to see anatomy and genitalia as the true marker of one's identity but yet it isn't. Your gender, and the socially constructed roles and stereotypes that go along with it - are how you identify yourself and other people identify you. That is what gender is, it's what people see and how you outwardly present yourself. Nobody self identifies or is indentified by other people via their sex, for that to be a thing you'd have to inspect people's bodies upon meeting them and that just doesn't happen. It's not relevant to anything or anyone unless you sleep with them. We need to move away from being a society that believes 'well you aren't a woman until you have tits and a vag!!!!!' and 'you ain't coming in this women's toilet to piss in private with a dick mate!!!'. It's damaging and defeatist, not to mention pointless.

As for the rest of the stuff about these deranged people on Tumblr and the like, all I'd say is you have to be very careful about taking these people at face value and assuming they're representative of the entire trans movement. They're not. You're always going to get some crazies on the internet and most of these people are just looking for a reaction to some ludicrous ideas, don't pander to them. It's just the same as how radical feminists do not represent the entirety of indeed the majority of the feminist movement (which you fleetingly mentioned at some point), it's annoying how feminism has been tarnished because people believe all feminists are man haters when that's simply not the case.

Anyway, that's enough for now lol

Jesus christ..this seems like you mostly agree with me? I was expecting to lock horns as my view isn't really the current politically correct one

The bolded bit I know this already. But it is the views of the main trans-activists that we hear about, and as such it is attributed to the whole community as they are the only ones who speak out...'normal' (for want of a better word) trans people just want to get on with life..not be constantly raking up hatred by coming out with unnecessary stuff such as lesbians should have sex with people who have penises. That is just ****ing absurd to me?!

[Vicky.]

Let's not try and trip people up and then wildly accuse them

It's about the person tbqh- and if they were looked my type and I had fallen in love with them (not just a ****ing one night stand, like WHAT are you trying to say, that someone would come up to me and say 'hey I'm a man' and I'd jump in the bed with them?!) it just really depends and how long I've known them for etc...

I'm not trying to trip you up :laugh: I am actually really wanting to talk about stuff and clear my head on it all...

If its all about the person and not their sex, then really, there is no such thing as gay, straight, bi, or any sexuality as we know it?#


You are making me question myself so much right now and you probably dont even know it. My thought process is this. I am attracted to guys. It could well be that I am just attracted to people who LOOK like guys. If faced with a guy I fancied who turned out to have a vagina I would say no. Does this make me intolerant of others, or does it simply mean, I like dick. I barely have a sex drive at all but if I found out a partner had womens bits I just couldnt do it...

[Jack_]

OK this makes not much sense to me at all then. Because this means, you would essentially shag a woman who just told you that she identified as a man.

I see what you're trying to get at here and it's an intriguing question but ultimately all it boils down to is people's personal preferences and attractions.

Some people love dick, some people love pussy. Some people love both, and get turned on at the thought of both. Others prioritise body shapes or facial appearances, or a combination of all of these. It's not a universal thing that can be applied to everyone. You could hypothetically meet a trans man that hasn't had surgery yet, be attracted to their outward appearance (i.e. their gender) but be repulsed by the thought of a vagina, and that's fine. There will be however people who end up in similar situations and are so attracted to the person that they don't care about the genitalia, or indeed fancy experimenting.

Unfortunately here we risk getting into a debate about the ins and outs of human sexuality and how you can pretty much argue that's socially constructed too but that's a recipe for disaster so let's not :joker:

[T*]

I'm not trying to trip you up :laugh: I am actually really wanting to tlak about stuff and clear my head on it all...

If its all about the person and not their sex, then really, there is no such thing as gay, straight, bi, or any sexuality as we know it?

(It really did seem like you were saying if someone came up to me and exclaimed they were male that I'd **** em :S)

And no that's not the point. There is sexuality. I do like dick. If say someone had chatted me up and we went up and it got to a real stage and then they're like 'I don't have a penis, I'm trans' I'd be like okay um
No, it's not something you should expect someone to just accept straight away but that doesn't mean things couldn't work out. You never know what will happen... Like I'm 16 and have had no experience so like...

Not sure if this is making sense but

[Vicky.]

I see what you're trying to get at here and it's an intriguing question but ultimately all it boils down to is people's personal preferences and attractions.

Some people love dick, some people love pussy. Some people love both, and get turned on at the thought of both. Others prioritise body shapes or facial appearances, or a combination of all of these. It's not a universal thing that can be applied to everyone. You could hypothetically meet a trans man that hasn't had surgery yet, be attracted to their outward appearance (i.e. their gender) but be repulsed by the thought of a vagina, and that's fine. There will be however people who end up in similar situations and are so attracted to the person that they don't care about the genitalia, or indeed fancy experimenting.

Unfortunately here we risk getting into a debate about the ins and outs of human sexuality and how you can pretty much argue that's socially constructed too but that's a recipe for disaster so let's not :joker:

Heh yeah I suppose. I have opened one gigantic can of worms tonight, lets not do another.

Do you agree, that its good to be able to actually talk about stuff though without it always being shut down? This was my main point in all of that essay tbh as I have been in the dark about everything to do with this issue for so long as the second the matter is mentioned, if you have any view other than the currently accepted 'right one' thats it, you are told to shut up and get lost as you are bigoted etc etc.

[T*]

The main thing I can't fathom is the mental illness thing. That isn't true at all. If they want surgery to make themselves THEM then that is their choice not a damn mental illness

[Jack_]

Jesus christ..this seems like you mostly agree with me? I was expecting to lock horns as my view isn't really the current politically correct one

The bolded bit I know this already. But it is the views of the main trans-activists that we hear about, and as such it is attributed to the whole community as they are the only ones who speak out...'normal' (for want of a better word) trans people just want to get on with life..not be constantly raking up hatred by coming out with unnecessary stuff such as lesbians should have sex with people who have penises. That is just ****ing absurd to me?!

I was expecting to disagree with you too but nope, in the first part of your post you pretty much said what I've been trying to tell this forum for years - that gender is socially constructed. There are books and journals written on this ffs and hopefully if I go through with doing my dissertation on gender and/or sexuality in the next year I'll be able to recommend some of them :laugh:

It is absurd, you're right. But most of these people are glorified trolls who just want a reaction. Don't get me wrong, there are some things I agree with that are often mocked, but that thread the other day about lesbians having to suck dick or whatever is nothing more than some deranged people taking the issues to the extreme and in the process tarnishing the entire movement, which is exactly what's happened with radical feminism.

[Vicky.]

The main thing I can't fathom is the mental illness thing. That isn't true at all. If they want surgery to make themselves THEM then that is their choice not a damn mental illness

Its a matter of opinion though I think rather than true and false, or right and wrong. If they feel like they need tits and a vagina, or a dick to be them, fair enough, I will support that. I see this as a BDD issue though rather than being in the wrong body (given that I do not believe in 'gender', only sex) and that they see it as the wrong body solely because of how sociey has...indoctrinated them in a way . Which in itself deserves sympathy and support...but surgery could well be the wrong road to push them down, and this is proven time and time again by those who transition, then regret it and either go back, or live miserably forever.

A better understanding...all round is surely whats needed here. And this can only happen if people are allowed to discuss things.

[Jessica.]

It was treated as a mental illness for ages though, are there cases of gender dysphoria being cured through therapy? I am really curious now.

[T*]

BTW due to me being a mumbling tired mess due to the time some of my posts could be misunderstood or something because I haven't explained it well enough

[Vicky.]

I was expecting to disagree with you too but nope, in the first part of your post you pretty much said what I've been trying to tell this forum for years - that gender is socially constructed. There are books and journals written on this ffs and hopefully if I go through with doing my dissertation on gender and/or sexuality in the next year I'll be able to recommend some of them :laugh:

It is absurd, you're right. But most of these people are glorified trolls who just want a reaction. Don't get me wrong, there are some things I agree with that are often mocked, but that thread the other day about lesbians having to suck dick or whatever is nothing more than some deranged people taking the issues to the extreme and in the process tarnishing the entire movement, which is exactly what's happened with radical feminism.

Glorified trolls being given a platform..by being elected (meaning they have support?!) for their vile views though..its just wrong. Ada was not removed until they insulted the police too..which is even worse. The stuff about expelling lesbians who won't shag them was perfectly fine apparently. (I use them as the term Ada prefers, not meaning them as a whole group)

The ladies I linked to in my post are against the militant trans-activism and are transwomen themselves which has opened my eyes even more on everything. I spoke also to someone who used to define themselves as trans woman who now goes by 'non-gender conforming man' after working out in their head all the gender rubbish. Unfortunately he had started the process of changing and has taken hormones and had a boob job as he was convinced by medical professionals and others that he actually was a woman. So its proving hard to come back from and he is so miserable at the moment...Its scary **** that this goes on.

[Jack_]

Heh yeah I suppose. I have opened one gigantic can of worms tonight, lets not do another.

Do you agree, that its good to be able to actually talk about stuff though without it always being shut down? This was my main point in all of that essay tbh as I have been in the dark about everything to do with this issue for so long as the second the matter is mentioned, if you have any view other than the currently accepted 'right one' thats it, you are told to shut up and get lost as you are bigoted etc etc.

Absolutely, until taboo subjects and minority rights are discussed openly and widely in the public domain nothing can progress, no one can be enlightened or educated. My main opposition to these kind of topics just comes from bad experience, there was a period this forum went through where civilised discussions were out of the window and it was just full of dismissive, patronising, passive aggressive and downright insulting posts and it was all just completely miserable. Hence why I've not liked discussions like these being started ever since, but hey maybe things have changed now

The main thing I can't fathom is the mental illness thing. That isn't true at all. If they want surgery to make themselves THEM then that is their choice not a damn mental illness

No I agree, it is less about mental illness and more about societal pressure to conform to a binary and the false notion that your sex is your true marker of your identity when it isn't, it's your gender.

What needs to happen is we need as a society to stop peddling this idea that to be a true 'woman' or 'man' you need to have sex reassignment surgery. It's unnecessarily damaging to so many people and it's an operation of which the effects are going to be seen by very little people.

Do I think people should be allowed to go through with transitioning and surgery if they so choose? Of course, but I'd much rather we tried to establish a society free of pointless binaries and categories and just allowed people to dress, act and self define how they wish without being mocked or told they need to conform to some particular ideal

[Vicky.]

Absolutely, until taboo subjects and minority rights are discussed openly and widely in the public domain nothing can progress, no one can be enlightened or educated. My main opposition to these kind of topics just comes from bad experience, there was a period this forum went through where civilised discussions were out of the window and it was just full of dismissive, patronising, passive aggressive and downright insulting posts and it was all just completely miserable. Hence why I've not liked discussions like these being started ever since, but hey maybe things have changed now

I bloody hope so. Used to enjoy this section so much, I really hope people continue in the spirit I intended this to be in and be respectful, but honest about what they think.


No I agree, it is less about mental illness and more about societal pressure to conform to a binary and the false notion that your sex is your true marker of your identity when it isn't, it's your gender.

What needs to happen is we need as a society to stop peddling this idea that to be a true 'woman' or 'man' you need to have sex reassignment surgery. It's unnecessarily damaging to so many people and it's an operation of which the effects are going to be seen by very little people.

Do I think people should be allowed to go through with transitioning and surgery if they so choose? Of course, but I'd much rather we tried to establish a society free of pointless binaries and categories and just allowed people to dress, act and self define how they wish without being mocked or told they need to conform to some particular ideal
Hmm. Again this shocks me as it seems you agree with my view on the following..I will ask anyway. I expected this part to go down like a lead balloon...

Do you believe, the more we work to remove stereotypes...eg the more guys go out in dresses and do not GAF about it and such, the more we move away from the stupid notions of women are soft and emotional while men never cry and such...we will see less cases of people thinking they are trans?

[Jack_]

I bloody hope so. Used to enjoy this section so much, I really hope people continue in the spirit I intended this to be in and be respectful, but honest about what they think.


Hmm. Again this shocks me as it seems you agree with my view on the following..I will ask anyway. I expected this part to go down like a lead balloon...

Do you believe, the more we work to remove stereotypes...eg the more guys go out in dresses and do not GAF about it and such, the more we move away from the stupid notions of women are soft and emotional while men never cry and such...we will see less cases of people thinking they are trans?

In a roundabout way, yeah.

If you allow people to self identify and determine their own gender (which anybody can do when you think about it) without mocking them or seeing them as abnormal, and without insisting that biological sex is the be all and end all of one's identity, then the need to 'transition' so to speak is diminished. The reason some trans people feel compelled to have surgery is because there's a societal belief that that's the only way you can be a true 'man' or 'woman'.

There would still always be people who want sex reassignment surgery either for the same reasons or perhaps even because they just want different genitalia, but I definitely think it would help. It needs to be a cultural shift in attitudes.

We don't need labels and we don't need complex issues to be categorised to make sense of them. This societal obsession with the gender binary is actually quite damaging but also really pointless. Why do we actually need separate toilets? Why do we need to create toys or indeed certain items of clothing specifically for boys/girls/men/women? Most of these things are totally unnecessary and yet people lap them up because it's the only way they know how, they are the product of their environment and have been socialised to believe this is the only way and that it's almost natural. It isn't. Humans created this

[Vicky.]

Agree with most of that. Toilets and...I guess 'womens safe spaces' though, I honestly don't know where I stand on it. While rape remains a huge issue, I do think its right to separate sex's when they are likely to be at their most vulnerable...if that makes sense? I get that a woman could technically be raped with something other than a penis, and that there are rare cases of women raping men..but it kinda doesn't sit right with me to just say everyone has to get on with it, who cares that the risk of rape will increase? :S

I would much rather go for, for example, mainly mixed sex changing rooms. With an option for male/female. Kinda like how we have a bunch of 'normal' loos then on disabled one at the moment? This way we are not forcing anyone to do anything they dont want to...and either trans women or women, or trans men or men can use said seperate room.

The suggestion that seemed most prevailant in discussions with actual transwomen, interestingly enough, was leave everything as it is for stuff like that but add a further option so that trans people get their own safe space also. View was mainly, they don't want to risk making people feel uncomfortable, but they do not wish to feel uncomfortable themselves.

[Jack_]

It doesn't increase though, that's a myth

If a man wants to rape a woman, he will do so. If he wants to rape a woman in a woman's toilet, a sign above the door saying he's not allowed in isn't going to stop him. If anything having unisex toilets means that there's always more likely to be more people around, and if we're going purely by stereotypes here - more men around to stop it from happening or intervene.

Dare I say you're more likely to be raped in your own house by a friend or relative than you are in a public toilet tbh

[Jack_]

Third options are perfectly reasonable compromises too, and quite frankly I'd prefer it if we ditched big open changing rooms for men and women at swimming pools and stuck with individual cubicles for everyone like some have, and do the same thing in toilets

The only reason unisex only toilets are preferable is because it's cheaper and it goes some way to diminishing the power of the gender binary and breaking down all these pointless labels

[Vicky.]

It doesn't increase though, that's a myth

If a man wants to rape a woman, he will do so. If he wants to rape a woman in a woman's toilet, a sign above the door saying he's not allowed in isn't going to stop him. If anything having unisex toilets means that there's always more likely to be more people around, and if we're going purely by stereotypes here - more men around to stop it from happening or intervene.

Dare I say you're more likely to be raped in your own house by a friend or relative than you are in a public toilet tbh

I am sure this is true..its certainly true that you are more likely to be murdered in your own home by someone you know so I see no reason why this would be different.

IDK..my own body issues may be clouding this for me, or even maybe how I have grown up (again, whats ingrained into me as the norm) but the idea of changing clothes in the same room as a bunch of random men is just..horrible to me :S Its not anything sexual, as I would have no issue getting changed in a room full of lesbians..IDK how to explain it tbh.



Loos I could get away with as they are separate cubicles anyways. Dunno if I could be done with the smell of the urinals though :fist:

[Vicky.]

Third options are perfectly reasonable compromises too, and quite frankly I'd prefer it if we ditched big open changing rooms for men and women at swimming pools and stuck with individual cubicles for everyone like some have, and do the same thing in toilets

The only reason unisex only toilets are preferable is because it's cheaper and it goes some way to diminishing the power of the gender binary and breaking down all these pointless labels

Well yes, this is an option I have never really thought of tbh. Thinking of it, whats the need for the huge open changing rooms anyway...

[Jack_]

I am sure this is true..its certainly true that you are more likely to be murdered in your own home by someone you know so I see no reason why this would be different.

IDK..my own body issues may be clouding this for me, or even maybe how I have grown up (again, whats ingrained into me as the norm) but the idea of changing clothes in the same room as a bunch of random men is just..horrible to me :S Its not anything sexual, as I would have no issue getting changed in a room full of lesbians..IDK how to explain it tbh.

Getting changed is an entirely different thing altogether and one I can relate to. I don't watch to get changed in front of anyone because it's just awkward, hence why I prefer cubicle based changing rooms as opposed to the big open ones for men and women

But toilets are a different ballgame, they exist for pissing, ****ting and maybe wanking if that's what floats your boat...nothing more, nothing less. It's all private and I want to be in and out ASAP so who's in the cubicles next to me makes no difference to me

Re: urinals, ditch the vile things anyway with the awful ~social rules~ that come along with them

[Jack_]

Well yes, this is an option I have never really thought of tbh. Thinking of it, whats the need for the huge open changing rooms anyway...

I assume cost but they're just awful, and Michael McIntyre pretty much sums up everything that's wrong with them:

x2mj9vm

[Jamie89]

I ummed and ahhed about posting this. This is a topic I am looking into deeply right now after having my eyes well and truly opened..this is not really anything to do with Greer but I didn't want to make a new thread and it 'fits' here so... So, at the risk of being flamed, and possibly even demodded as apparently my views are transphobic to some (though the word has lost all meaning, as I am about to talk about) here we go.

First off, I don't think you've come across as transphobic at all, it's clear you're just trying to understand the issue, and it's a worthy discussion to be had.

I actually think part of the problem here though is that the thing you're trying to understand, can't really be fully understood, we simply don't know enough about how the brain works. And the whole thing comes down to someone's connection (or disconnection) between 3 things, their brain, their physical body, and the social constructs around them. But these things often get mixed up and that's why it gets so complicated. And that's essentially why we have labels, so we can make sense of things and simplify things, and 'man' and 'woman' are easy labels because we can see there are clear difference between men and women... but how a person feels and how their brain works isn't something we can see, so we can't really know 'why' when it comes to transsexuality, it just is. And I think this, plus the fact that it's such a small proportion of the population that go through something like this, It makes it even more difficult to be able to personally relate to it or see it as 'normal'... and that's where it becomes easy to fall into the 'mental illness' way of thinking. But personally I reject that. It goes against what we consider an 'illness' to be. From a trans persons point of view, they are 'cured' at the point of transitioning, and why should we dismiss that just because we don't understand what's behind it?

As such, I reject the idea of 'gender identity' meaning someone is actually the opposite sex than they were born. Gender, is a totally social construct.

Which in turn, means I reject the 'born in the wrong body' stuff, in the sense of it meaning anything to do with actual sex.

To me, the 'born in the wrong body' thing is just phrasing. If the deeper issues surrounding transsexuality and the mentality behind it can't be fully understood then it can't really be articulated accurately either. So I don't think the terminology should necessarily be taken too literally. It's just someone trying to make sense of themselves. So even if it doesn't make total sense when analysed against the things that we do understand, that doesn't make the persons feelings that led to them saying it any less valid.

It was treated as a mental illness for ages though, are there cases of gender dysphoria being cured through therapy? I am really curious now.

I'm not sure, but we live in a world where homosexuality was/(is?) also treated as a mental illness, and there are people right now being 'cured' of it, so even if transsexuals have been 'treated' through counselling I don't think that it backs up the idea of it being a mental illness, especially when you consider that the vast majority of people who have undergone reassignment surgery have considered that to be their treatment and 'cure'.

[Ammi]

....I don't have time to make anything other than a quick post but it's interesting though because it can't all be a 'society construct' if 'male' and 'female' have been 'defined' pre-society and back in the beginning of man days...the hunter gatherer and the carer/the dominant and the submissive and etc...and then the evolvement of wearing clothing/fashion and 'expected' of male female clothing and behavioural 'society norms'/the provider the nurturer etc.... but that's all just an evolvement in society forming...?...and I do think that society is responsible for much unhappiness and the struggles etc but not the cause though....if someone as isolated from society from birth in an experiment, I will think that they would always be who they are...that I think is evident..(for me anyway..)...in those 'non-societies' and tribes, which have always so far as we know, had 'twin spirit' or 'two spirit' people in terms of sexuality, which hasn't always been understood or identified but has always been there ....societies pressure, societies judge, societies cause unhappiness and people not feeling free to be who they are but societies don't cause..?...


...anyways, just an initial thought but I don't have time to give more thought to it atm....

[arista]

"Re: urinals, ditch the vile things anyway with the awful ~social rules~ that come along with them "


No Jack
we can not afford to go Fancy
Times are hard
Me , LT and TS
all know this.


Feel The Force

[jaxie]

Wouldn't that be a womb?

This is the thing I find most confusing about the mechanics of a sex change. How can you be a woman or a man with the internal bits of a different sex. Is the operation really a sex change or a castration or in the case of a woman to man cosmetic enhancement.

If you become a man but then have a baby like a woman, something recently spoken about as news, are you still a woman and not a man at all?

If you want to be a woman but can't procreate as a woman or have a menopause when the time comes are you really living a woman's life? What about menstruations?
By the same token if you want to be a man but can't procreate like a man are you really living the life of a man?

Is the change really a satisfactory conclusion, does it make you the sex you desire to be or is it a band aid?

[Vicky.]

From a trans persons point of view, they are 'cured' at the point of transitioning, and why should we dismiss that just because we don't understand what's behind it?


I'm not sure, but we live in a world where homosexuality was/(is?) also treated as a mental illness, and there are people right now being 'cured' of it, so even if transsexuals have been 'treated' through counselling I don't think that it backs up the idea of it being a mental illness, especially when you consider that the vast majority of people who have undergone reassignment surgery have considered that to be their treatment and 'cure'.

But they aren't 'cured' when they transition in many many cases. People live even more miserably than before, even more confused and some even attempt to go back to what they were before, which is difficult and never works out quite...'right' due to the years and years of stress and surgeries they have put upon themselves to chase the ideology that they are infact, the opposite sex. Those who are 'cured', again it could be a case of BDD...I have maybe been oversimplifying things but have went down this train of thought

As a teen I hated having huge breasts. I did not think I should have huge breasts. The huge breasts caused me distress and upset in many many cases. At one stage I had a total disassociation from my body and refused to believe it even belonged to me, such was my hatred for it. Now, it would be easy to say due to these feelings...oh my breasts do not belong to my body, I should be in a body without these huge breasts. And if I had at one point had a boob reduction...my distress and such would effectively have been 'cured'. This does not mean that I was infact in the wrong body and this is the reason for the 'cure', Not sure I am explaining this right though :S


To me, the 'born in the wrong body' thing is just phrasing. If the deeper issues surrounding transsexuality and the mentality behind it can't be fully understood then it can't really be articulated accurately either. So I don't think the terminology should necessarily be taken too literally. It's just someone trying to make sense of themselves. So even if it doesn't make total sense when analysed against the things that we do understand, that doesn't make the persons feelings that led to them saying it any less valid.
I am glad you posted this, I tried to post something similar but couldn't find the words to make it sound right. My opinion is, while it is not fully understood, it is still a relatively new 'thing', is dishing out lifechanging surgeries and such really the answer? If having surgery makes someone happy, thats fine. But it appears the way things are going, people are having surgery due to being pigeonholed to believe they are not allowed to be the person they actually are unless they have different genitals? My opinion may well be ridiculously biased on this as of the people I spoke to, one has now, at a late stage in the process, decided that maybe there is no real need to have a vagina, that its just been gender sterotypes making him feel the way he did, and professionals not saying the 'right' thing in counseling sessions. I find it utterly disgusting that the so called extensive counceling for this person did not at any point include someone pointing out that wanting to dress 'as a woman' and such does not mean you are a woman at all, just that you do not go along with what society deems acceptable. And that if this line of thinking was included, they do not feel they would have gone down the homones and all route as they would have accepted earlier on that they are just a non gender conforming male. This person now has to make a choice between staying in halfway land which is making him miserable, 'finishing' the transition which would make him miserable, and reverting back to what he was before, which is a long and painful process, during which he shall be miserable. When the whole issue could have been shelved rather early on by him being given the realisation that it is actually OK to be a 'feminine' male.

[Vicky.]

Also again on this TERF issue..of course they 'exclude trans women' and I can honestly see why. Feminists have fought for years and years to have equal rights to men. They are there (or very nearly there). Can you imagine how it feels to then be expected to put the needs/wants of a man ABOVE your own rights? I am speaking purely from the 'trapped in a mans body' perspective of this, NOT those who have fully transitioned. To include people who simply say they identify as women is effectively saying **** the rights we fought for, men still rule all and have the final say...we were oppressed for thousands of years, but now a guy can simply claim he is the most oppressed of the oppressed and everyone must forget everything else and yield to this. Its not right. Womens rights could therefor be broken down systematically by a few blokes on a power trip who have an 'easy out' for want of better words. Yes these people are a minority, but a very dangerous minority and a very loud minority and I am not sure I agree with making this easier for them. Same as the lesbian issue I guess...those who think they have the right to bully lesbians into ****ing them by labeling them transphobic if they don't and saying they should be beaten up and such..are a minority but at the moment, they have a very real way to exert their power and basically say 'hail my almighty penis' :S

--------------------------------------

Also adding onto this post, though has no relevance to the above part of my post, adding simply so I don't spam the thread...I have read many things about trans people, but this seems to be the prevalent thought process on the 'living as a woman' issue I asked of earlier

http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2011/02/give_me_back_my_girlhood.php

Its all very very sad to read, but this part

I wanted to be a girl. I never vocalized this. I overcompensated a bit, to be truthful. My parents probably would've handled it well, but I never gave them the chance. I didn't have the courage or self-awareness to speak up. I wasn't aware of the future consequences of this decision. I didn't even know I had made a decision. I knew my feelings were incorrect and that's all there was to it.


I want it back. I want my Barbies. I want my ballerina phase. I want the bedroom that's pink and purple everywhere with a canopy bed. I want tea parties with my dad. I want slumber parties and unsuccessful experiments with make-up with my friends. Is NOT living as a girl. It is, however how (dare I say) the majority of trans people view things. So yet again, social issues, nothing else. Treat the cause, not the illness. Hypothetically of course..

[jaxie]

But they aren't 'cured' when they transition in many many cases. People live even more miserably than before, even more confused and some even attempt to go back to what they were before, which is difficult and never works out quite...'right' due to the years and years of stress and surgeries they have put upon themselves to chase the ideology that they are infact, the opposite sex. Those who are 'cured', again it could be a case of BDD...I have maybe been oversimplifying things but have went down this train of thought

As a teen I hated having huge breasts. I did not think I should have huge breasts. The huge breasts caused me distress and upset in many many cases. At one stage I had a total disassociation from my body and refused to believe it even belonged to me, such was my hatred for it. Now, it would be easy to say due to these feelings...oh my breasts do not belong to my body, I should be in a body without these huge breasts. And if I had at one point had a boob reduction...my distress and such would effectively have been 'cured'. This does not mean that I was infact in the wrong body and this is the reason for the 'cure', Not sure I am explaining this right though :S


I am glad you posted this, I tried to post something similar but couldn't find the words to make it sound right. My opinion is, while it is not fully understood, it is still a relatively new 'thing', is dishing out lifechanging surgeries and such really the answer? If having surgery makes someone happy, thats fine. But it appears the way things are going, people are having surgery due to being pigeonholed to believe they are not allowed to be the person they actually are unless they have different genitals? My opinion may well be ridiculously biased on this as of the people I spoke to, one has now, at a late stage in the process, decided that maybe there is no real need to have a vagina, that its just been gender sterotypes making him feel the way he did, and professionals not saying the 'right' thing in counseling sessions. I find it utterly disgusting that the so called extensive counceling for this person did not at any point include someone pointing out that wanting to dress 'as a woman' and such does not mean you are a woman at all, just that you do not go along with what society deems acceptable. And that if this line of thinking was included, they do not feel they would have gone down the homones and all route as they would have accepted earlier on that they are just a non gender conforming male. This person now has to make a choice between staying in halfway land which is making him miserable, 'finishing' the transition which would make him miserable, and reverting back to what he was before, which is a long and painful process, during which he shall be miserable. When the whole issue could have been shelved rather early on by him being given the realisation that it is actually OK to be a 'feminine' male.

Excellent, interesting, thought provoking post/series of posts.

[Vicky.]

Excellent, interesting, thought provoking post/series of posts.

Thanks. I genuinely do believe this is an issue worth discussing, and do not believe being opposed to the current 'accaptable' stance on it all is wrong or transphobic in the slightest.


We spoke last night about toilets and changing rooms. I now move onto a much more complex area that cannot simply be solved by 'unisex closed cubicles'.

Refuges and such. Where women (or men in less cases, so for the post I shall refer to women as it is more prevalent) go to escape domestic violence. Where sex segregation IS needed as so many women in those places are there due to rape and such, or violence committed by men. If we accept this 'anyone is anything they identify as', the logical answer is that trans women are not excluded from said places as they are also women. I completely disagree. While they may be women in thought, they are not women. Male on female violence (inc rapes) and such is a huge issue, not one that can be ignored to go along with the fluffy media rhetoric of any issue to do with trans.

Do we accept that afterall, a trans woman is NOT the same as a woman and as such should not be granted access to womens refuges and such?

Or do we go along with 'anyone is what they identify as' and allow anyone access to female only safe spaces such as a refuge? Which in turn, would mean that for example, a woman fleeing domestic violence..is found in said refuge by abuser, who can then simply stick on a dress and say he identifies as a woman, and gain access to said woman to abuse yet again.These are the kind of questions that need to be asked these days sadly.

I believe there is a NEED, not a want, for some places to be segregated entirely by sex.

Yet again, this has been spoken about with actual transsexual women who agree entirely that men should not be able to under any circumstance be allowed into a womens refuge. again, it has been suggested that refuges specifically for trans women could be opened.

To me, this comes down to who has more rights, whos rights trump the rights of others. Is it right to allow men to redefine womens rights in the way they are trying to? Or are feminists (not even feminists, just people who accept women are entitled to..their rights) wrong on this issue and everyone should pander to the view that anyone is a woman, regardless of their actual sex?



I am a woman who has been gang raped by men - with penises. I am a survivor of child abuse over many years and in all I have been raped over 200 times.
I will never accept that I should share public toilets or changing rooms with someone with a penis just because that person is self-certifying as a woman.
It has taken many many years of close medical intervention and therapy for me to function fully within society and I still have PTSD. To force me to accept men as women is tantamount to abusing me again and could put my recovery back years. I am only just steady now. Women do not rape girls and women with their penises. Women do not have them.

This is a copy/paste from another discussion on this subject. Rather thought provoking...


---------

And a further addition..that kinda has nothing to do with the rest of the post, but again I do not want to spam post. https://www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t basically, the trans movement as it is today, is homophobic in many ways, ignoring the cotton ceiling concept entirely. Many views on this, but the petition puts most of it across in one place..so was easier to post than a bunch of links on the top of my screen right now.

[Jamie89]

But they aren't 'cured' when they transition in many many cases. People live even more miserably than before, even more confused and some even attempt to go back to what they were before, which is difficult and never works out quite...'right' due to the years and years of stress and surgeries they have put upon themselves to chase the ideology that they are infact, the opposite sex. Those who are 'cured', again it could be a case of BDD...I have maybe been oversimplifying things but have went down this train of thought

As a teen I hated having huge breasts. I did not think I should have huge breasts. The huge breasts caused me distress and upset in many many cases. At one stage I had a total disassociation from my body and refused to believe it even belonged to me, such was my hatred for it. Now, it would be easy to say due to these feelings...oh my breasts do not belong to my body, I should be in a body without these huge breasts. And if I had at one point had a boob reduction...my distress and such would effectively have been 'cured'. This does not mean that I was infact in the wrong body and this is the reason for the 'cure', Not sure I am explaining this right though :S

No I do get what you mean, I'd just be really surprised if it was something along the lines of BDD to be honest. I think if it was, it would have been identified as such by medical professionals and/or transsexuals themselves. And yes I'm sure many people have gone through the procedures only to change their minds later, but I don't think that should invalidate all the people who do feel like their change has been necessary. Just thinking about the trans women and men that I've met and spoken to (which admittedly is only a handful), it's never crossed my mind that there's been any other underlining body issue, other than their gender, that has led to them having surgery. And getting to know people like that, it's something that just seems really clear in my mind, that it is an issue of gender... but I do find it hard to explain why I feel so sure of that because I don't fully understand it either.

I am glad you posted this, I tried to post something similar but couldn't find the words to make it sound right. My opinion is, while it is not fully understood, it is still a relatively new 'thing', is dishing out lifechanging surgeries and such really the answer? If having surgery makes someone happy, thats fine. But it appears the way things are going, people are having surgery due to being pigeonholed to believe they are not allowed to be the person they actually are unless they have different genitals? My opinion may well be ridiculously biased on this as of the people I spoke to, one has now, at a late stage in the process, decided that maybe there is no real need to have a vagina, that its just been gender sterotypes making him feel the way he did, and professionals not saying the 'right' thing in counseling sessions. I find it utterly disgusting that the so called extensive counceling for this person did not at any point include someone pointing out that wanting to dress 'as a woman' and such does not mean you are a woman at all, just that you do not go along with what society deems acceptable. And that if this line of thinking was included, they do not feel they would have gone down the homones and all route as they would have accepted earlier on that they are just a non gender conforming male. This person now has to make a choice between staying in halfway land which is making him miserable, 'finishing' the transition which would make him miserable, and reverting back to what he was before, which is a long and painful process, during which he shall be miserable. When the whole issue could have been shelved rather early on by him being given the realisation that it is actually OK to be a 'feminine' male.

It does sound like this person has had pretty bad counselling/information from what you've described, but I think for most people it's definitely more than just how they dress and usually the counselling and assessments are adequate enough. There will always be examples where people may have been failed by the system, and where their particular needs haven't been addressed/met, but that's probably true of any system. And it's obviously awful for that person, but them essentially receiving treatment that they didn't need, I don't think is enough of a reason to stop the people who do need it from receiving it. (Which I guess raises the question of 'need' but I would personally argue that it is a need...**) And although it's a relatively new thing in terms of the surgeries and the way it's generally perceived, trans feelings aren't a new thing. There have been people in the past who've resorted to surgically removing their own genitals because of it, and other people who've committed suicide(...**for these reasons). At some point our acceptance of trans people and our willingness to help them reassign has to be 'new' so I don't think that's necessarily a reason against it being.

[Vicky.]

No I do get what you mean, I'd just be really surprised if it was something along the lines of BDD to be honest. I think if it was, it would have been identified as such by medical professionals and/or transsexuals themselves. And yes I'm sure many people have gone through the procedures only to change their minds later, but I don't think that should invalidate all the people who do feel like their change has been necessary. Just thinking about the trans women and men that I've met and spoken to (which admittedly is only a handful), it's never crossed my mind that there's been any other underlining body issue, other than their gender, that has led to them having surgery. And getting to know people like that, it's something that just seems really clear in my mind, that it is an issue of gender... but I do find it hard to explain why I feel so sure of that because I don't fully understand it either.



It does sound like this person has had pretty bad counselling/information from what you've described, but I think for most people it's definitely more than just how they dress and usually the counselling and assessments are adequate enough. There will always be examples where people may have been failed by the system, and where their particular needs haven't been addressed/met, but that's probably true of any system. And it's obviously awful for that person, but them essentially receiving treatment that they didn't need, I don't think is enough of a reason to stop the people who do need it from receiving it. (Which I guess raises the question of 'need' but I would personally argue that it is a need...**) And although it's a relatively new thing in terms of the surgeries and the way it's generally perceived, trans feelings aren't a new thing. There have been people in the past who've resorted to surgically removing their own genitals because of it, and other people who've committed suicide(...**for these reasons). At some point our acceptance of trans people and our willingness to help them reassign has to be 'new' so I don't think that's necessarily a reason against it being.
All good points yet again, of course its entirely possible that the people I have spoken too were failed by they 'system' as it were..and one of them horrifically. It just really seems the way things are going..is that people are pushed into believing they are trans, rather than considering many other factors. And this allowing kids to 'be' trans is just wrong. And from what I have been reading, ****ing homophobic to boot. Given there is not enough extensive research into the...condition..treating kids with hormones and such and irreversible surgeries in a young age..seems wrong and honestly, tantamount to child abuse.

http://www.thehomoarchy.com/do-youth-transgender-diagnoses-put-would-be-gay-lesbian-bisexual-adults-at-risk-for-unnecessary-medical-intervention/

My arguments for how deciding someone is trans from a young age is actually homophobic are put across well on here^ however I do not know how true the statistics they mention are, as I can't find any extensive statistics or anything on the subject. IF its true though that anywhere near 90% of children who would be recognized as 'trans' actually grow up to just be gay..there is a huge problem and declaring them trans but 'straight' is effectively...'curing' people of being gay? By throwing a different label at it.

I am definitely prepared to accept that being trans in itself is not a mental illness or BDD. But I also feel it is much rarer than it appears to be and we need to find ways of finding out who exactly is trans, what actually causes it and such. For example..a word that was mentioned by Miranda Yardley was Autogynephilia, which is the most controversial word that can be used when discussing MtF trans people apparently. But it makes perfect sense, though has not been proven or disproven, but could go a hell of a long way to explaining quite WHY there are so many MtF transexuals as there are FtM. There is definitely something to this, as the huge majority of FtM transexuals identify as lesbians...Autogynephilia is not being trans, but a sexuality or sorts. Or (possibly easier to digest) a fetish.


Seem to have gone off on a tangent there again with my new catalogue of thoughts that I didn't even know existed :S

I ask though Jamie, personally, do you think it is correct for someone to simply say they identify as a woman or a man, and thus they are that and said individual then gets all of the rights and such of whichever sex they chose and everyone else just has to deal with it, or be branded a bigot? If so, fair enough, but also, do you see how this current direction we are going in of accepting this..is wide open to abuse by people with their own agenda(including, IMO many of the loudest transactivists)

[user104658]

Going to be quick and straight to the point here I'm afraid Vicky:

Your entire argument from the very start of your first post describes the difference between "sex" and "gender". This is accurate. However what you then go on to do is attempt to entirely remove the entire concept of gender from the equation completely by pretending that - as it is not biologically hard wired - it therefore does not exist.

This is fundamentally flawed thinking.

Yes, the concept of gender is a social construct, but it a very REAL and still current social construct in the world we live in. You simply can't take it out of the equation. It's incorrect psychology; anything and everything you say after that is then flawed or incorrect because you are hinging your entire philosophy on the still-false premise that males and females are not still socially distinguishable.

You argue that IF infants were taken and raised in a gender-neutral environment, these issues would cease to exist. That's a valid hypothesis and may well be right but... it's completely irrelevant to a real-world discussion of gender identity.


Beyond that, I would actually agree that there are probably many individuals living as transgendered who do indeed more accurately have generalised identity disorders, often triggered by trauma. However that's a different discussion, really. The existence of those individuals doesn't make it valid to "throw the baby out with the bath water", so to speak, and deny the existence of literal biologically trans-sexed people. When you then put those people into the REAL world in which gender identities DO exist, rather than your hypothetical non-existent ideal world devoid of such roles, it's easy to see why there would be distress based around being in the "wrong body" and associated expectations.

[user104658]

OK, it wasn't that quick.

[Vicky.]

I wasn't trying to deny that gender roles/stereotypes and such play a huge part in everyones lives though, the 'gender neutral' stuff was me trying to write out my thoughts as I thought them..which may well have come across really wrong. And basically, I have come to the realization that society, as a whole has actually created 'trans' issues in most cases..which is sad and could be changed. Not immediately granted, but long term, and would be much more useful than writing a 'feminine' man off as a trans woman and then going onto attempting to redefine the word woman to fit this. I have flip flopped so much in views on this subject over the past week or so that I feel slightly like a hypothetical dying carp. And I have realised the reason for this feeling, for the lack of understanding surrounding these issues..is that we aren't allowed to have conversations about it without being written off as phobic, which is really wrong.

I also think that 'people who identify' and 'trans' are entirely different, and I will never fully accept someone who simply thinks they are a woman in their head, as a woman. Where I would accept a trans woman who has transitioned as a woman...this view is thought to be totally unacceptable. I understand that to transition there are dangerous surgeries and such and I don't wish to make people feel they HAVE to go through stuff like this, but I just cannot get over the fact that with the whole 'identify' thing..literally anyone can say they are anything they wish to, either for genuine reasons, or for another agenda (such as blokes on a power trip having an easy 'out' and getting a kick out of eroding womens rights /feminist)

[user104658]

You can get quite sweeping there though, as sadly it is "society" that has created almost EVERY human issue, but some aspects of society are so ingrained that it would most likely be futile to try to rewrite them. I'm also not personally convinced that a "gender neutral" world is something that we SHOULD strive for; I am completely in favour of gender equality but, to me anyway, gender uniformity sounds pretty... Grey?

I would be very skeptical of anyone who insists that they be considered "female" whilst still being entirely masculine... But like I said, you can separate the bull**** and the abnormal psychology from the legitimate individuals without having to tear everything down and start over.


From my own personal viewpoint it's all quite academic, to be fair. I'm a huge believer in individuality and I don't like categories of any kind as a rule. I wouldn't say I feel particularly masculine, nor feminine. I'm male, 6'2, well built and as far as I can tell entirely straight (I've only ever been sexually attracted to females) and I'm entirely happy with my body; though I also don't feel like I'd be unhappy in a female body.

I can handle myself, but I've never been aggressive. I'm not into sports of any kind as some would argue "most" males are.

I like "girly TV" like Gossip Girl :joker:.

I generally prefer female company... Though my two best friends are male. One is gay and pretty camp, the other is straight and probably even more camp.

To be honest I sort of think of myself as an individual as being entirely unrelated to the body that I happen to move around the world in. What sexually / gender is that? Hmmmm. Just a TS I suppose :shrug:.

[Jamie89]

All good points yet again, of course its entirely possible that the people I have spoken too were failed by they 'system' as it were..and one of them horrifically. It just really seems the way things are going..is that people are pushed into believing they are trans, rather than considering many other factors. And this allowing kids to 'be' trans is just wrong. And from what I have been reading, ****ing homophobic to boot. Given there is not enough extensive research into the...condition..treating kids with hormones and such and irreversible surgeries in a young age..seems wrong and honestly, tantamount to child abuse.

http://www.thehomoarchy.com/do-youth-transgender-diagnoses-put-would-be-gay-lesbian-bisexual-adults-at-risk-for-unnecessary-medical-intervention/

My arguments for how deciding someone is trans from a young age is actually homophobic are put across well on here^ however I do not know how true the statistics they mention are, as I can't find any extensive statistics or anything on the subject. IF its true though that anywhere near 90% of children who would be recognized as 'trans' actually grow up to just be gay..there is a huge problem and declaring them trans but 'straight' is effectively...'curing' people of being gay? By throwing a different label at it.

I am definitely prepared to accept that being trans in itself is not a mental illness or BDD. But I also feel it is much rarer than it appears to be and we need to find ways of finding out who exactly is trans, what actually causes it and such. For example..a word that was mentioned by Miranda Yardley was Autogynephilia, which is the most controversial word that can be used when discussing MtF trans people apparently. But it makes perfect sense, though has not been proven or disproven, but could go a hell of a long way to explaining quite WHY there are so many MtF transexuals as there are FtM. There is definitely something to this, as the huge majority of FtM transexuals identify as lesbians...Autogynephilia is not being trans, but a sexuality or sorts. Or (possibly easier to digest) a fetish.


Seem to have gone off on a tangent there again with my new catalogue of thoughts that I didn't even know existed :S

I ask though Jamie, personally, do you think it is correct for someone to simply say they identify as a woman or a man, and thus they are that and said individual then gets all of the rights and such of whichever sex they chose and everyone else just has to deal with it, or be branded a bigot? If so, fair enough, but also, do you see how this current direction we are going in of accepting this..is wide open to abuse by people with their own agenda(including, IMO many of the loudest transactivists)

I feel very uneasy at the idea of someone who hasn't matured mentally or physically going through any kind of treatment so I'm with you on that.

For me personally, it would be enough for someone to say they identify as male/female for me to accept them as that. I know there would be a lot of people in all sorts of circumstances who might say that but it not necessarily meaning they are trans and there may be other issues at play, but because I do think transsexuality exists, it would have to be enough for me because otherwise I'd be denying the genuine transsexuals, and I don't think those who are genuinely transsexual should be punished for the fact that some people out there are just weirdo's, because undoubtedly some people are, but that's true of any category of person. So I also think that it would be enough for me to be happy with them receiving the rights etc that comes along with it. If it was up to me and I was being really honest then I'd say yeah, I'd want everyone to just deal with that :laugh: but I wouldn't brand anyone a bigot simply for not agreeing. Like you said in an earlier post it's all fairly new in terms of society's views etc, and hearing cases and experiences of trans people, and just generally trying to get to grips with what it is/how it effects people/the abuses that can occur etc, all sides to it, so arguing against it has it's merit too. I'd only say someone was bigoted if they were against it just because they don't like trans people. And yes it could be open to abuse but I just don't consider that to be a reason against it because absolutely anything in life is open to abuse and I wouldn't want to legislate against and restrict transsexuals just because some people have different agenda's, I don't think that would be fair on them. And it's not something we do in many of the other areas where systems are abused. My biggest worry would be reversing the direction we are going in because the way views are currently shifting I see as being progressive, and sure there might be a lot of bad that comes along with that but overall and long term I think it's a good thing.

[Vicky.]

See I did see it as being progressive until recently, but now,,I see it as a huge step backwards for womens rights, and downright dangerous to actual real life trans people as to force people into something they don't believe in, will incite hatred, hatred that may not ever be there if not for the 'trans-movement' as it stands today..

OK, Helen is one of the people I have spoken to over the past few days who has helped me shape my views. They have given me permission to copy/paste one of their posts about the matter, and suggested a blog post may be helpful in trying to explain my views about the trans-activists arguments being detrimental to actual transpeople.

http://transavant.tumblr.com/post/149594568757/whats-my-deal
The blog is well worth a read and actually quite upset me. It must be horrific to be rejected by society because of who you are, whilst equally abused by the very people who claim to represent you, simply for failing to 'fall into line' with the current TA views...

Ok my thoughts on calling transwomen men for what it's worth, Obviously these are just my personal thoughts - not everyone will agree and that's cool.

This is complicated so apologies in advance if this goes a bit rambly.

My way of thinking about it is that humans like all mammals are sexually domorphic. That's biology 101 right? Sure there are a tiny percentage of people that are intersex, but bringing that up is just appropriation and is disingenuous. Most (all?) transwomen are male. Penis, sperm, prostate etc.

Now that 'should' be undisputable. Some TA's do and frankly I put them in the same camp as flat earthers.

Where it gets a bit trickier for me is how we define 'man' and 'woman'. The dictionary is usually a pretty good place to start. According to The Oxford English Dictionary:

man
noun
Adult human male.

So according to the dictionary definition I'm a man. In fact all transwomen are men. I've heard people say that it's a morally neutral statement. It's not a judgement statement or meant to be derisory. It's just a statement of fact.

So why do we get so upset at being called men?

I think it's because man means so much more than just adult human male. It has so much social connotation.

connotation
noun
An idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning.

'Man' invokes all of the thoughts and feelings we have about men in the social context of our society. I can't say that this is the same for all transwomen (and certainly not for transactivists), but to me man means sexist, misogynyst, thoughtless, violent. I have very negative connotations with the word man. I guess to me I just associate the word man with tocxic masculinity.

I once heard a transwoman say "I don't know what I am but whatever it is I'm definitely not a man". Nobody said anything at the time but I know now that pretty much everbody's silent reaction was to think "Who are you kidding? You are clearly a man."

And they are a man. An adult human male. But they desperately didn't want to be lumped under that word which means so much more than adult human male.

I think I've worked beyond this now and I no longer get upset by being called a man or 'he' but I understand why others do. I also don't lay any claim to womanhood or to be called she or her. Some people do call me those things and that's cool. Some people don't and that's also cool.

There is another dynamic that we need to be honest about though. The transgender umbrella has been getting bigger and bigger and men (and I use that word intentionally) who are some of the most vile misogynists I've had the misfortune to encounter claim womanhood, and 'she' and 'her' and have devleloped this culture of entitlement (male entitlement?) and victimhood.

These TRA's harm transexuals so much with their bull****.

I know that this is a bit #notallmen but I thought it worth trying to explain something from the pint of view of someone who is trans.

Sorry again that was a ramble.

I understand that this is ONE opinion. But this person, along with Miranda and a bunch of other posters..have been part of what has made me question my previous views on this and I do find it useful to have the opinions of someone who is actually in the firing line each and everytime a TA claims to speak for transexuals.

I am also speaking about this on a more private forum with a MtF transexual who prefers to be known as she as she sees herself as female despite being born male. But also completely distances herself from the views of the most prominent TAs who claim the need to totally redefine the world as we know it, rather than fighting for acceptance for themselves..and thinks that the current way the trans-movement is going is 'bizarre, scary and damaging to women and transwomen alike'