Transgender woman sent to all male prison because she was born a man...

[Ammi]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/27/03/2DCE9C3700000578-3291097-Make_up_artist_Tara_Hudson_26_has_lived_as_a_woman _all_her_adult-m-15_1445918218465.jpg


A transgender woman has been sent to a men’s prison in an ‘outrageous’ move her mother says will endanger and ‘humiliate’ her.

Make-up artist Tara Hudson, 26, has lived as a woman all her adult life and has gone through six years of gender reconstruction surgery.

But magistrates sent the young woman – who admitted a bar assault - to a male prison because her passport says she is still a male.

Her mother last night said: ‘There’s nothing male about her, nobody would know the difference. She looks like a woman. She’s gorgeous.

‘We think it’s totally outrageous. I don’t think she will cope well at all. I just feel the men are going to go after her. It’s going to be humiliating.’

Mother Jackie Brooklyn said her daughter’s doctor had even confirmed that she is now a woman.

But Bath magistrates sentenced Tara to 12 weeks inside the tough all-male Bristol prison after she admitted assault.

Tara - who was born Aaron - admitted the crime after an incident at an All Bar One on Boxing Day 2014.

She changed her plea to guilty last month but her mother said she was only expecting her to be put on an electronic tag and made to undergo an alcohol awareness course.

She thought it magistrates did think the crime justified a prison sentence, her daughter would be sent to a women’s jail.

Miss Brooklyn has now written to the court and the prison governor in a bid to overturn the decision.

She said: ‘I just want to get my daughter into a safe, female environment where she belongs and will continue to fight the decision.’

The mother said her daughter regularly gets abuse for her gender status and is on a hormone replacement course as well as medication for depression.

She said her daughter was a qualified makeup artist and wants to pursue it as a career but has been off work due to her health and a social worker has cared for her.

Miss Brooklyn added: ‘I don’t want her going backwards with her mental health. She’s been through a hard time and this could set her right back.

‘I don’t think the magistrates have taken that into consideration.

‘I fear that it is a potentially dangerous situation for her to be in and feel strongly that she would be far safer in a female environment.

‘While I understand it is a complex issue, the treatment of transgender individuals by the British judicial system is one that clearly requires greater attention and thought.

‘The primary focus should be the safety and wellbeing of those involved.’

Miss Hudson spent most of her childhood living in Bath with her mum and moved out into her own flat at 16.

Last night Tara’s mother, 48, said that her daughter still had the vestige remains of a penis, despite having 34EE breasts.

She said the hormone treatment had shrunken Tara’s ‘manhood’ and she was due to have it removed ‘at some point’ and was still taking hormone treatment she has been receiving for some years.

Last year prison inspectors reported that levels of violence had ‘risen sharply’ at Bristol Prison and not ‘enough was being done to protect some vulnerable prisoners’.

HM Inspectorate of Prisons carried out the inspection last autumn and said levels of violence had risen since their last visit and ‘were now considerably higher than in similar prisons’.

They said not enough was being done to ‘investigate individual violent incidents’ and the prison was not dealing with perpetrators and victims.

The prison was previously criticised following an unannounced inspection in May 2013 when concerned inspectors said they would ‘return earlier than usual’.

HMP Bristol is a category B local prison holding around 600 young adult and adult men.

A Prison Service spokesperson said last night: ‘It is longstanding policy to place offenders according to their legally recognised gender.

‘There are strict rules in place to ensure transsexual prisoners are managed safely and in accordance with the law.’


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3291097/Transgender-woman-born-man-sent-male-prison-despite-fears-safety-following-assault-conviction.html

[kirklancaster]

This beggars belief??????

Those responsible should be removed from their positions.

[Niamh.]

That's awful

[Will.]

mess

[Vanessa]

Madness putting a woman in an all male prison :shocked:

[Cal.]

Don't do the assault in the first place hoe

[DemolitionRed]

Regardless of the crime she committed, this is a woman who should be in a female prison.

Disgusting but I'm glad its been brought to light.

[smudgie]

Surely when the legal status changes should be looked into:shrug:
If she has had the hormone treatment and it is now a case of waiting for the surgery then she could/should have her status as a woman.
Insane to put her in a male prison when to all intent and purpose she looks like and lives her life as a woman.

[Niamh.]

Don't do the assault in the first place hoe

And she deserves to do her sentence but it should be in a female prison. Can you imagine sending someone who looks like that into a male prison? You know what will happen to her in there, no one deserves that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

lovely tattoo of a gun on her leg

:umm2:

[Tom4784]

Those magistrates should be sacked, it's an awful transphobic decision that's also going to put her in great danger.

[kirklancaster]

Those magistrates should be sacked, it's an awful transphobic decision that's also going to put her in great danger.

We're agreeing too much Dez.:hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would imagine that the "woman" has spent quite a lot of money on boob jobs and the like but has not bothered to try and change her gender legally and as such when sentenced the law states that what is on your BC and passport is what you must be tried as, thus the magistrate had little choice legally.


The person seems like a vicious thug so I have little sympathy.

[Mystic Mock]

I thought that the law stated that if you identify as the other gender for a whole year that you legally get to become that gender? I know she didn't change her passport etc, but she did have the operation which is more than enough for me and should be more than enough for the law.

[Niamh.]

I thought that the law stated that if you identify as the other gender for a whole year that you legally get to become that gender? I know she didn't change her passport etc, but she did have the operation which is more than enough for me and should be more than enough for the law.

She hasn't had the operation yet (I don't disagree with the rest of your post though)

[Ammi]

'She has spent her entire adult life living as a woman and has been medically declared as a woman by her doctor'

[arista]

lovely tattoo of a gun on her leg

:umm2:


Well Hard

[Ammi]

I would imagine that the "woman" has spent quite a lot of money on boob jobs and the like but has not bothered to try and change her gender legally and as such when sentenced the law states that what is on your BC and passport is what you must be tried as, thus the magistrate had little choice legally.


The person seems like a vicious thug so I have little sympathy.

..she just hasn't had her final surgery which would give her a gender recognition certificate..and I don't understand 'seems like a thug' as we only know of this one assault, which she pleaded guilty to and why that would mean she deserves being placed in danger in prison...

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe since Transgenderism is on the rise it's time to build a prison for them to save the confusion.It says that this person still has a small penis so is not fully transformed.Maybe the judge was thinking that it might make the real women in a womens prison feel uncomfortable which would cause more disturbances.
Maybe in the judges eyes it was the least worst option.
However a mans prison is not the place for somebody with such a female appearance either.
They more than likely need to segregated for the full sentence.
I think a transgender prison is deffo needed since it is a gender now.

[bots]

sentencing obviously has to follow the legalities of the situation to the letter. Its like legal ages of responsibility and everything else. If she is not deemed to be legally a woman, then that's how it must be. At the end of the day, the issue would never have arisen if she hadn't broken the law so I have zero sympathy.

If the situation were reversed and it was a female to male transgender, I bet there would be zero calls for him to go to a male prison.

[Niamh.]

Maybe since Transgenderism is on the rise it's time to build a prison for them to save the confusion.It says that this person still has a small penis so is not fully transformed.Maybe the judge was thinking that it might make the real women in a womens prison feel uncomfortable which would cause more disturbances.
Maybe in the judges eyes it was the least worst option.
However a mans prison is not the place for somebody with such a female appearance either.
They more than likely need to segregated for the full sentence.
I think a transgender prison is deffo needed since it is a gender now.

Prisons are stretched for funding as it is I seriously doubt there is the numbers to warrant opening a prison for transgender people.

[Niamh.]

sentencing obviously has to follow the legalities of the situation to the letter. Its like legal ages of responsibility and everything else. If she is not deemed to be legally a woman, then that's how it must be. At the end of the day, the issue would never have arisen if she hadn't broken the law so I have zero sympathy

You think she deserves to be thrown into a prison full of men and probably end being raped on a daily basis then? Have you seen the pictures of her?

[bots]

You think she deserves to be thrown into a prison full of men and probably end being raped on a daily basis then? Have you seen the pictures of her?

i think that special circumstances should avail at the prison she is sent to and I believe that is exactly what is happening.

Many different types of people require specific protection when they go to prison, I don't see this being any different.

[Northern Monkey]

Prisons are stretched for funding as it is I seriously doubt there is the numbers to warrant opening a prison for transgender people.

Probably not.In the meantime though this is undoubtedly going to cause alot of discomfort for people.Something needs to be done.Maybe dedicated wings of a prison/prisons.Supposing a transgender person walks into the shower with or is getting changed with men or women?It will cause problems either way.Some pervy men may do/say inappropriate things and women may feel very uncomfortable showering/changing with what is in biological terms still a man.That could lead to assaults on the transgender person from women and possibly even riots.This person will undoubtedly end up segregated for the majority of their sentence which is also unfair and potentially psychologically damaging.Only the worst of the worst are restricted human contact for safety reasons.A simple assault does not warrant that type of segregation.

[Jamie89]

Well I'd like to know what Germaine Greer has to say on the issue :think:

[Niamh.]

Probably not.In the meantime though this is undoubtedly going to cause alot of discomfort for people.Something needs to be done.Maybe dedicated wings of a prison/prisons.Supposing a transgender person walks into the shower with or is getting changed with men or women?It will cause problems either way.Some pervy men may do/say inappropriate things and women may feel very uncomfortable showering/changing with what is in biological terms still a man.That could lead to assaults on the transgender person from women and possibly even riots.This person will undoubtedly end up segregated for the majority of their sentence which is also unfair and potentially psychologically damaging.Only the worst of the worst are restricted human contact for safety reasons.A simple assault does not warrant that type of segregation.

Yeah, it is a tough one, you make some good points. Such a difficult life it must be to be transgender, I really feel for people going through that

[Kizzy]

Shocking, I know there must be rules against someone who is legally a man in a Womans prison but come on!

[Crimson Dynamo]

..she just hasn't had her final surgery which would give her a gender recognition certificate..and I don't understand 'seems like a thug' as we only know of this one assault, which she pleaded guilty to and why that would mean she deserves being placed in danger in prison...

You do not get jail time for one assault, you get it for a string of offences and one assualt

[Ammi]

..that's just an assumption though but even if it were the case, prisons are there to rehabilitate law offenders and not place them in physical danger...

[Ammi]

..and if there was a string of offences, each of those would have had their own punishments already...

[Tom4784]

There's a Duty of Care towards keeping inmates safe and putting a transgendered woman, regardless of what she's done, in a male prison that's known for it's violence flies in the face of Duty of Care.

There's no justification for it.

[Denver]

One thing I don't understand is if she is women why does she still keep a passport saying she is a male?

[Niamh.]

One thing I don't understand is if she is women why does she still keep a passport saying she is a male?

I presume those documents can't be changed until you get the operation? (that's a guess though)

[Livia]

Stick her in solitary. It won't matter then whether she's in a male or female prison. And if she doesn't like it, well, maybe she'll think twice before getting into another bar fight.

[Liam-]

Has he had the gender reassignment surgery?

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

lol she is getting moved to a womans prison so worry over...

[Livia]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

lol she is getting moved to a womans prison so worry over...

Really?

Isn't she still in possession of her male genitals?

Ridiculous fuss for a bar brawler.

[Northern Monkey]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

lol she is getting moved to a womans prison so worry over...
Did you have to?Now i'm starting to question my sexuality:laugh:

[Cherie]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

lol she is getting moved to a womans prison so worry over...

Figured this would happen, mistakes happen

[kirklancaster]

I wonder if the 90% Lesbian Prison staff will become confused and woo her with gifts, and favours the way they did Myra Hindley?

[JoshBB]

Disgusting.. she still deserves to go to prison if she committed the crime, but surely if we're doing the gender-separation prison thing then she should be going to a female prison.. as she is female.. honestly why is this even something that needs to be pointed out? :facepalm:

[JoshBB]

Really?

Isn't she still in possession of her male genitals?

Ridiculous fuss for a bar brawler.

Don't you think that's a bit of an invasive question that you would subject a transgender individual to?

Genitals ≠ Gender

[lostalex]

It's wrong for prisons to be segregated by gender to begin with. all prisons should be integrated.

[lostalex]

Don't you think that's a bit of an invasive question that you would subject a transgender individual to?

Genitals ≠ Gender

wearing dresses and makeup doesn't = gender either. and you can't wear dresses or makeup in prison anyway.

why should this person be allowed to be safe in a women's prison when plenty of other people with a penis would also be more safe in a women's prison? why does she deserve more safety than a man who is also being harassed in a men's prison?

all prisons should be fully integrated men and women. it's the prison's job to protect ALL of the vulnerable people, male female, or trans.

That's true Equality.

[Marsh.]

Do transgenders not change their genders legally? In terms of all their legal documents?

If they do, then this decision is baffling.

[Marsh.]

Really?

Isn't she still in possession of her male genitals?

Ridiculous fuss for a bar brawler.

Is she really?

:think:

That adds a very large grey area to the debate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

tbh its what the male prisoners would want

[Marsh.]

tbh its what the make prisoners would want

:joker:

[Mystic Mock]

Did you have to?Now i'm starting to question my sexuality:laugh:

Don't ever watch BBUSA17 then if you get worried about questioning your sexuality.:joker:

[user104658]

Don't ever watch BBUSA17 then if you get worried about questioning your sexuality.:joker:

It seems highly unlikely that a homosexual male would be attracted to a transgender male -> female though... surely? If they are, then THEY should be questioning their sexuality :laugh:. "Guys... guys I've been finding myself attracted to a transgender woman called Sue. I... I'm starting to think that I might be straight :(."

[kirklancaster]

It seems highly unlikely that a homosexual male would be attracted to a transgender male -> female though... surely? If they are, then THEY should be questioning their sexuality :laugh:. "Guys... guys I've been finding myself attracted to a transgender woman called Sue. I... I'm starting to think that I might be straight :(."

:laugh: As humorous as this is T.S - It's true.

'Though I bet some cons who have been banged up for years would shag a pig if it was put in their cell without pondering their sexuality too much. :laugh:

[user104658]

'Though I bet some cons who have been banged up for years would shag a pig if it was put in their cell without pondering their sexuality too much. :laugh:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/British-Prime-Minister-Da-008.jpg

It'll be his Marie Antoinette moment. "Then let them shaft pigs!"

[Jack_]

cons who have been banged up for years would shag a pig

cons shag a pig

cons

shag

pig

http://i.imgur.com/DYxUR8C.jpg

[kirklancaster]

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/British-Prime-Minister-Da-008.jpg

It'll be his Marie Antoinette moment. "Then let them shaft pigs!"

:laugh2:

[kirklancaster]

http://i.imgur.com/DYxUR8C.jpg

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[Mystic Mock]

http://i.imgur.com/DYxUR8C.jpg

I've got a song for the Pig in the picture.

NHOf3s70w-c

[Kizzy]

I absolutely love that song! :)

[Crimson Dynamo]

the criminal has lost their appeal and will go to a blokes jail

A transgender woman who was sent to a men's prison has lost an appeal against her sentence.

Tara Hudson, 26, from Bath, was jailed and placed at the all-male HMP Bristol for 12 weeks after admitting assault.

The Recorder of Bristol, Llewelyn Sellick, said Hudson had a "worrying criminal record" which contained "numerous offences".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34675778



A common thug and will hopefully now start to serve their sentence

[Northern Monkey]

http://i.imgur.com/DYxUR8C.jpg
:laugh:

[Kizzy]

the criminal has lost their appeal and will go to a blokes jail

A transgender woman who was sent to a men's prison has lost an appeal against her sentence.

Tara Hudson, 26, from Bath, was jailed and placed at the all-male HMP Bristol for 12 weeks after admitting assault.

The Recorder of Bristol, Llewelyn Sellick, said Hudson had a "worrying criminal record" which contained "numerous offences".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34675778



A common thug and will hopefully now start to serve their sentence

Maybe the Womens prisons don't want her either, it's a violent person couldn't see them willing to welcome with open arms :/

[Denver]

If she hadn't changed her document over to say she is a women its her own fault just because you look like a women doesn't mean you should be treated like that if your ID says your a man

[Crimson Dynamo]

"She’s getting sexually harassed. Inmates are screaming from their cells: ‘Tara, Tara, Tara, show us your tits.’”

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/29/transgender-prisoner-tara-hudson-sexually-harassed-hmp-bristol


Oh dear, it appears that prison isnt nice..

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe the Womens prisons don't want her either, it's a violent person couldn't see them willing to welcome with open arms :/

Yes.This was my point too.Putting a transgender in the general population of a womens prison could cause riots.

[Tom4784]

the criminal has lost their appeal and will go to a blokes jail

A transgender woman who was sent to a men's prison has lost an appeal against her sentence.

Tara Hudson, 26, from Bath, was jailed and placed at the all-male HMP Bristol for 12 weeks after admitting assault.

The Recorder of Bristol, Llewelyn Sellick, said Hudson had a "worrying criminal record" which contained "numerous offences".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34675778



A common thug and will hopefully now start to serve their sentence

I hope she sues tbh, it's ridiculous that she's been placed in such a dangerous situation. Neither the courts nor the prisons are fulfilling their duty of care by putting her at risk like that.

[Denver]

I hope she sues tbh, it's ridiculous that she's been placed in such a dangerous situation. Neither the courts nor the prisons are fulfilling their duty of care by putting her at risk like that.

I'm sorry I don't agree if her document says she is a man then she must be treated as a man she only has her self to blame

1) She should have changed her document after the doctors declared her a women

2) Should not of committed the crime in the 1st place

[Crimson Dynamo]

the law is the law and she/he broke it


now its time to pay the consequences

[Tom4784]

I'm sorry I don't agree if her document says she is a man then she must be treated as a man she only has her self to blame

1) She should have changed her document after the doctors declared her a women

2) Should not of committed the crime in the 1st place

Bull****, the courts make allowances all the ****ing time. This woman, despite not having the correct documentation is obviously a woman and she's going to be at severe risk in a male prison but who cares, she's a criminal! She deserves to suffer sexual violence, it'll teach her amirite?!

the law is the law and she/he broke it


now its time to pay the consequences

Thank god you will never know true power if you think the threat of sexual violence is an acceptable 'consequence.'

[JoshBB]

Did you have to?Now i'm starting to question my sexuality:laugh:

Aren't you a straight male? bc she's female so no you aren't questioning it at all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bull****, the courts make allowances all the ****ing time. This woman, despite not having the correct documentation is obviously a woman and she's going to be at severe risk in a male prison but who cares, she's a criminal! She deserves to suffer sexual violence, it'll teach her amirite?!



Thank god you will never know true power if you think the threat of sexual violence is an acceptable 'consequence.'

who has threatened her with sexual violence, thats just in your head?

[bots]

there are many vulnerable people that end up in prison. Be they disabled, come from a specific background, committed a particularly heinous crime. The list is endless. This criminal is just another example and will be afforded the same protection.

Anyway, as this person has committed multiple violent offences, its clear that she is perfectly capable of dishing it out. She may have changed gender, but she is no weak shrinking violet.

[Cherie]

there are many vulnerable people that end up in prison. Be they disabled, come from a specific background, committed a particularly heinous crime. The list is endless. This criminal is just another example and will be afforded the same protection.

Anyway, as this person has committed multiple violent offences, its clear that she is perfectly capable of dishing it out. She may have changed gender, but she is no weak shrinking violet.

:clap1: she is still legally a man, she should have invested some energy into getting her documents in order before she started on her crime spree

[Northern Monkey]

Aren't you a straight male? bc she's female so no you aren't questioning it at all.hmm.I would'nt actually call somebody with a tiny penis female but hey maybe things have changed since i did biology.

[user104658]

Know what strikes me about this thread? A not-too-small number of people seem positively gleeful about the idea of her being sent to an all-male prison. What's that all about?

[Cherie]

Know what strikes me about this thread? A not-too-small number of people seem positively gleeful about the idea of her being sent to an all-male prison. What's that all about?

Gleeful? In what way? Just because I am not wringing my hands in despair at her self inflicted plight

[Marsh.]

:clap1: she is still legally a man, she should have invested some energy into getting her documents in order before she started on her crime spree

This tbh.

[user104658]

Gleeful? In what way? Just because I am not wringing my hands in despair at her self inflicted plight

I'm not wringing my hands in despair either, but nor am I taking joy in it whilst vigorously rubbing my groin against the leg of my table.

People aren't saying "Meh, don't care."

They're saying "GOOD! He deserves it! He isn't a real woman anyway! Who cares what happens to HIM in there, should have thought about that before!"

And they're enjoying it, because people like being vicious when they think they can get away with it. And they think they can get away with it by hiding their gleeful viciousness under the banner of "Hmph just not being PC everyone is too PC". Which annoys me. Because that's not what it actually is.

[Marsh.]

I'm not wringing my hands in despair either, but nor am I taking joy in it whilst vigorously rubbing my groin against the leg of my table.

People aren't saying "Meh, don't care."

They're saying "GOOD! She deserves it! She isn't a real woman anyway! Who cares what happens to her in there she should have thought about that before!"

And they're enjoying it, because people like being vicious when they think they can get away with it. And they think they can get away with it by hiding their gleeful viciousness under the banner of "Hmph just not being PC everyone is too PC". Which annoys me. Because that's not what it actually is.

The only person I see getting THAT passionate about anything is you in reaction to other's opinions. :shrug:

[user104658]

The only person I see getting THAT passionate about anything is you in reaction to other's opinions. :shrug:

Then you haven't actually read the thread :shrug:

[Jack_]

Know what strikes me about this thread? A not-too-small number of people seem positively gleeful about the idea of her being sent to an all-male prison. What's that all about?

Yeah, it's rather disturbing. As is the not-so-accidental gender neutral pronouns some keep insisting on using, or the obsession with genitalia as means of identifying a person. Unsurprising, but still disturbing.

[Tom4784]

who has threatened her with sexual violence, thats just in your head?

It's obviously a risk and you're naive if you think otherwise.

[Marsh.]

It's obviously a risk and you're naive if you think otherwise.

That risk plus many others come with any prison.

There are options there for her to take for protection.

[Jay28jay2]

What Genatalia she was born with shouldnt determine her gender. She was a girl trapped in a boys body

[Denver]

At the end of the day she is a criminal whynshould she get special treatmen? She is still down as a man its the same as if she would be flying out the country her passport would be rejected she made the decision to not update her documents she has to deal with it.

She is no more at risk then the young vulnerable lads that go in if someone has rape on there mind there going to rape anyone no matter what they look like and that is unfortunately the type of world we live in.

[Cherie]

She has been moved now at any rate so crisis over, she tried to get her sentence overturned but she was moved instead.

[Liam-]

Lmao the whole 'think of my safety' plea doesn't really wash with me after she admitted to attacking someone I'm afraid.

[Tom4784]

That risk plus many others come with any prison.

There are options there for her to take for protection.

Yes, any prisoner in a male prison is just as likely to be a victim of sexual violence as she is......

The main option to fulfil the duty of care when it comes to trans prisoners is not to put them in the prison assigned to the gender they were born with where they'll either face an increased risk of violence or be made to live in solitary confinement for simply being different. It doesn't make any kind of sense to put her in a male prison, It's morally wrong and it's a dumb decision in terms of economics and resources because she's going to require more protection than the average prisoner in that prisoner and she's still gonna have grounds to sue afterwards.

Whoever decided to send her to that prison should be sacked.

[Tom4784]

Lmao the whole 'think of my safety' plea doesn't really wash with me after she admitted to attacking someone I'm afraid.

And that justifies her being either confined to Solitary for 12 weeks or be at risk of sexual violence?

What a strange sense of morality you have.

[Tom4784]

I'm not wringing my hands in despair either, but nor am I taking joy in it whilst vigorously rubbing my groin against the leg of my table.

People aren't saying "Meh, don't care."

They're saying "GOOD! He deserves it! He isn't a real woman anyway! Who cares what happens to HIM in there, should have thought about that before!"

And they're enjoying it, because people like being vicious when they think they can get away with it. And they think they can get away with it by hiding their gleeful viciousness under the banner of "Hmph just not being PC everyone is too PC". Which annoys me. Because that's not what it actually is.


I know exactly what you mean and it drives me mad.

[Liam-]

And that justifies her being either confined to Solitary for 12 weeks or be at risk of sexual violence?

What a strange sense of morality you have.

I didn't say it justified anything :shrug:

My morality has nothing to do with it, hers however does.

[Northern Monkey]

This is why there needs to be dedicated wings for transgenders.There currently is no correct place to put them.Legally and biologically this person is still a man but obviously a mans prison is not the place to put them and neither is a womans prison.

[Marsh.]

Yes, any prisoner in a male prison is just as likely to be a victim of sexual violence as she is......

Correct. They're all men with penises.

[Tom4784]

I didn't say it justified anything :shrug:

My morality has nothing to do with it, hers however does.

Well it does since you're saying she doesn't deserve to be safe during her prison term and by saying that you're essentially saying that any misfortune that befalls on her due to the fact she's trans is justified.

Her morality or crimes have nothing to do with it, the system has a duty of care to it's inmates and they have failed this woman completely.

[Tom4784]

Correct. They're all men with penises.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

Yes and they all look like this, I'm sure.

[Denver]

Well it does since you're saying she doesn't deserve to be safe during her prison term and by saying that you're essentially saying that any misfortune that befalls on her due to the fact she's trans is justified.

Her morality or crimes have nothing to do with it, the system has a duty of care to it's inmates and they have failed this woman completely.

But why should should she be given special privileges?

[Marsh.]

Yeah, it's rather disturbing. As is the not-so-accidental gender neutral pronouns some keep insisting on using, or the obsession with genitalia as means of identifying a person. Unsurprising, but still disturbing.

But isn't the purpose of having the split prisons based on the inmates' different genitalia?

[Marsh.]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ad_185879329.jpg?w=620&h=832&crop=1

Yes and they all look like this, I'm sure.

Who said they did?

All men look different. Moobs, no moobs, fat, thin, tats, no tats, track marks, hair, no hair etc etc.

Just because this inmate has had breast implants doesn't entitle her to different treatment.

[Liam-]

Well it does since you're saying she doesn't deserve to be safe during her prison term and by saying that you're essentially saying that any misfortune that befalls on her due to the fact she's trans is justified.

Her morality or crimes have nothing to do with it, the system has a duty of care to it's inmates and they have failed this woman completely.

When did I say any of that? :joker:

I said I didn't buy the whole 'woe is me' act, which I don't because she clearly didn't care for safety when she was out attacking people.

Nowhere did I mention anything to do with the prison situation, as it so happens, I don't think she should be in a male prison, so if you're done lecturing me over something I didn't say, I'd highly appreciate it.

[Tom4784]

But why should should she be given special privileges?

Oh? I wasn't aware not being made to be at a higher risk of being raped in prison was a special privilege. News to me.

[Marsh.]

No doubt there'll be another article in a couple of months when the female inmates are up in arms about seeing a penis in the showers.

[Denver]

Oh? I wasn't aware not being made to be at a higher risk of being raped in prison was a special privilege. News to me.

She committed the crime she deals with the punishment she doesn't get to choose what prison she goes too.

If her document say she is legally a man I'm sorry but the law has to treat her as a man until she provides more proof then just her looks that's how the law works.

[arista]

She has Now gone to a Female Prison.

Ref: Ch4HD News

[Tom4784]

When did I say any of that? :joker:

I said I didn't buy the whole 'woe is me' act, which I don't because she clearly didn't care for safety when she was out attacking people.

Nowhere did I mention anything to do with the prison situation, as it so happens, I don't think she should be in a male prison, so if you're done lecturing me over something I didn't say, I'd highly appreciate it.

Again, this has no relevance to the fact that she, like all prisoners, should not be knowingly put into dangerous situations by the courts. Putting a trans woman into a male prison is an obviously bad situation that's not going to end well for anyone. She either spends twelve weeks in Solitary and can sue for being put into Solitary for being trans or she can be placed in gen pop and be in danger and still be able to sue for endangerment. It's a bad decision all round and she has more than enough grounds to complain about it.

Who said they did?

All men look different. Moobs, no moobs, fat, thin, tats, no tats, track marks, hair, no hair etc etc.

Just because this inmate has had breast implants doesn't entitle her to different treatment.

That word alone is why she can't simply be thrown into a male prison, regardless of her genitalia. She is a woman and you would not throw a woman into an all male prison so why is this she case any different? It's not special treatment to put her into a women's prison, it's a basic right to ensure that prisoners aren't endangered by the court's decisions and they are meant to take the prisoner's circumstances into consideration which they obviously didn't do here.

[Marsh.]

That word alone is why she can't simply be thrown into a male prison, regardless of her genitalia. She is a woman and you would not throw a woman into an all male prison so why is this she case any different? It's not special treatment to put her into a women's prison, it's a basic right to ensure that prisoners aren't endangered by the court's decisions and they are meant to take the prisoner's circumstances into consideration which they obviously didn't do here.

She's not taken any legal steps or otherwise to becoming a woman?

If I'm sentenced, simply telling the courts "I'm a woman" doesn't entitle me to be sent to an all female prison. It doesn't work like that.

[Tom4784]

She committed the crime she deals with the punishment she doesn't get to choose what prison she goes too.

If her document say she is legally a man I'm sorry but the law has to treat her as a man until she provides more proof then just her looks that's how the law works.

Oh, so a threat of sexual violence is part of an acceptable punishment?

As for the second bolded part, this is false. The court is meant take the prisoner's circumstances into consideration when it comes to sentencing and where they'll serve their time. Her situation would mean she would obviously be at risk in a male prison and that wasn't considered by the court that sentenced her.

[Denver]

Oh, so a threat of sexual violence is part of an acceptable punishment?

As for the second bolded part, this is false. The court is meant take the prisoner's circumstances into consideration when it comes to sentencing and where they'll serve their time. Her situation would mean she would obviously be at risk in a male prison and that wasn't considered by the court that sentenced her.

Men are not allowed I'm female prison so if her documents set she is a man she can go in to that prison

[Dollface]

She should have been put in a female prison, I just can't even try and comprehend why anyone would think differently.

[Tom4784]

Men are not allowed I'm female prison so if her documents set she is a man she can go in to that prison

Hi Female Prison, nice to meet you.

You're just repeating yourself now and I already dealt with that point in my last post.

[Cherie]

She should have been put in a female prison, I just can't even try and comprehend why anyone would think differently.

I can see her having issues in a womens prison as well so I don't think its fully addressed the problem with placing trans prisoners

[bots]

Oh, so a threat of sexual violence is part of an acceptable punishment?

As for the second bolded part, this is false. The court is meant take the prisoner's circumstances into consideration when it comes to sentencing and where they'll serve their time. Her situation would mean she would obviously be at risk in a male prison and that wasn't considered by the court that sentenced her.

There has been no threat of violence. It is an assumption that you are making. Even if it was the case, she will be looked after and kept safe, just like every other prisoner.

The court does not decide what prison the person goes to (male or female) that is the function of the prison service. It is for them to judge, they are in possession of ALL the facts after all and what special requirements are needed.

I can't help but feel many are jumping on some righteous bandwagon, when the facts are that every single prisoner is assessed before being allocated to any particular prison.

[Marsh.]

I can see her having issues in a womens prison as well so I don't think its fully addressed the problem with placing trans prisoners

Exactly. I can imagine there'll be quite a few complaints in the shower room.

[JoshBB]

The blatant transphobia in this thread shows exactly why she needs to be in a female prison

[Marsh.]

The blatant transphobia in this thread shows exactly why she needs to be in a female prison

All I'm seeing is a debate on both sides of the argument. Where's the transphobia?

[Denver]

Hi Female Prison, nice to meet you.

You're just repeating yourself now and I already dealt with that point in my last post.

Shouldn't they be concerned on how the whole female prison will react and cope with it rather then 1 person?

If she wasn't such a vile thug then she wasn't in this position I'm really not her for certain criminal get treated better they are all there for a reason and will all be treated the same

[JoshBB]

All I'm seeing is a debate on both sides of the argument. Where's the transphobia?

The whole "she was born a man, therefore she goes in a male prison" argument clearly refuses to give transwomen the same rights as cisgender women for a start..

[Denver]

The blatant transphobia in this thread shows exactly why she needs to be in a female prison

All I see is people trying to make out its because she transgender and has been some sort of hate crime.

All its been is poor women going to a men prison where is the sympathy for the people she attacked?

[Denver]

The whole "she was born a man, therefore she goes in a male prison" argument clearly refuses to give transwomen the same rights as cisgender women for a start..

Have you read the article? I guess not as it clearly say legally she still a man

[Liam-]

The whole "she was born a man, therefore she goes in a male prison" argument clearly refuses to give transwomen the same rights as cisgender women for a start..

No, I think it's the fact that she's still legally and physically a man that's the problem, if she was a physical woman rather than a mental/psychological one, I don't think people would be defending the prison choice.

[Marsh.]

The whole "she was born a man, therefore she goes in a male prison" argument clearly refuses to give transwomen the same rights as cisgender women for a start..

Then you need to read up on the facts of the case posted in the OP before making assumptions.

Legally, she is still male and hasn't had gender reassignment surgery.

[DemolitionRed]

She's now been transferred to a female prison but according to a radio report, she was badly abused in the male prison.

[JoshBB]

No, I think it's the fact that she's still legally and physically a man that's the problem, if she was a physical woman rather than a mental/psychological one, I don't think people would be defending the prison choice.

And how would you define a physical woman? A person with a vagina? And then they are a woman? I don't think you realise what this infers, which is that you must have a vagina to 'be a woman' which is completely untrue.

Then you need to read up on the facts of the case posted in the OP before making assumptions.

Legally, she is still male and hasn't had gender reassignment surgery.

Gender, by definition, has nothing to do with your genitals. Also you can be legally recognised as your preferred gender, and have your name/documents changed to reflect that, without having sex reassignment.

[Marsh.]

Gender, by definition, has nothing to do with your genitals. Also you can be legally recognised as your preferred gender, and have your name/documents changed to reflect that, without having sex reassignment.

I never said it did. I'm pointing out that legally AND physically, she hasn't actually changed her gender.

Simply saying "I'm a woman" doesn't entitle anyone to a place in a women's prison.

[Jamie89]

The blatant transphobia in this thread shows exactly why she needs to be in a female prison

This + everything Dezzy has said.

Surely we can look past what a piece of paper says and apply some common sense. She is at a high risk of sexual and mental abuse in a male prison. She isn't in a female prison. Above all else she's a human being. For those saying 'well she shouldn't have committed the crime' you're right she shouldn't, but she's still going to prison! And the whole 'what about the other women seeing a penis in the showers'... yes this 'trauma' is much worse than someone being raped :facepalm:

[DemolitionRed]

Well she managed to sort that whilst waiting for her appeal and now its sorted, all is good.

[Marsh.]

And the whole 'what about the other women seeing a penis in the showers'... yes this 'trauma' is much worse than someone being raped :facepalm:

Try reading what I actually posted.

I never said it was comparable to rape, nor did I say it was traumatic.

I said that there'll no doubt be complaints from female prisoners as I can't imagine all of them would be comfortable sharing facilities with a person who is physically male.

In the simplest terms, moving her to a women's prison is likely to not bring an end to it.

[Denver]

OK I want all the vulnerable teens removed from prison because of the daily abuse they get.

Let's see how far this debate goes.

[Jamie89]

Try reading what I actually posted.

I never said it was comparable to rape, nor did I say it was traumatic.

I said that there'll no doubt be complaints from female prisoners as I can't imagine all of them would be comfortable sharing facilities with a person who is physically male.

In the simplest terms, moving her to a women's prison is likely to not bring an end to it.

I did read what you posted :conf:

By bringing it into the conversation it suggests a comparison. Otherwise how it is relevant to what's being discussed? It came across as an argument for her to not be moved. There is a subtext behind raising it as a point when we're talking about someone being at a high risk of rape in their current situation.

[Marsh.]

I did read what you posted :conf:

By bringing it into the conversation it suggests a comparison. Otherwise how it is relevant to what's being discussed? It came across as an argument for her to not be moved. There is a subtext behind raising it as a point when we're talking about someone being at a high risk of rape in their current situation.

It was brought up in response to it not bringing an end to this issue. Simply moving her to a women's prison doesn't solve all issues surrounding this debate and the imprisonment of transgender people.

The entire thread isn't about the possibility of this inmate being raped.

Pretend to see whatever subtext you like, don't put words into my mouth.

[Jamie89]

OK I want all the vulnerable teens removed from prison because of the daily abuse they get.

Let's see how far this debate goes.

On a case by case basis, if any of those teens were being raped, then yes I'd agree they should be moved. We aren't talking about anyone being removed from prison.

[DemolitionRed]

Try reading what I actually posted.

I never said it was comparable to rape, nor did I say it was traumatic.

I said that there'll no doubt be complaints from female prisoners as I can't imagine all of them would be comfortable sharing facilities with a person who is physically male.

In the simplest terms, moving her to a women's prison is likely to not bring an end to it.

I doubt many women would be bothered but they aren't going to allow her to shower with women now are they :hehe:.

TS doesn't necessarily mean they have been bodily re-aligned and so she's not the first TS with a dick in a woman's prison.

[Marsh.]

I doubt many women would be bothered but they aren't going to allow her to shower with women now are they :hehe:.

I doubt many men would be bothered but it's not stopping people shouting "rape!" in the thread when she hasn't been raped.

Inmates shower in communal bathrooms, so yes, they will have to share.

[Jamie89]

It was brought up in response to it not bringing an end to this issue. Simply moving her to a women's prison doesn't solve all issues surrounding this debate and the imprisonment of transgender people.

The entire thread isn't about the possibility of this inmate being raped.

Pretend to see whatever subtext you like, don't put words into my mouth.

Ok well you know that's how it came across because of the nature of the thread, which is why you're now going on the attack but I haven't put any words in your mouth, I'm just offering a different pov

[Marsh.]

Ok well you know that's how it came across because of the nature of the thread, which is why you're now going on the attack but I haven't put any words in your mouth, I'm just offering a different pov

I've not gone on the attack, I'm simply correcting your wildly incorrect understanding of my post.

When you use my post as an example out of context, I will respond. That's not a different POV. It's simply incorrect.

[DemolitionRed]

I doubt many men would be bothered but it's not stopping people shouting "rape!" in the thread when she hasn't been raped.

Inmates shower in communal bathrooms, so yes, they will have to share.

Provisions are made for certain types of prisoners.... A prisoner with Hepatitis or HIV, a criminal who is up on a sex charge, a prisoner who is seen as vulnerable or dangerous are not made to shower with everyone else.

[Cherie]

She's now been transferred to a female prison but according to a radio report, she was badly abused in the male prison.

It's a prison I doubt they roll out the red carpet for any new inmates, I would wager that she will get equal abuse in the female prison, but we will only read about the former when she sells her story in a few weeks :idc:

[kirklancaster]

When you cut through all the claptrap, psychobabble, and fashionable, new - but overused - labels and tags, if a human has a vagina then she is a Woman and if a human has a penis then he is a Man -- SEXUALLY speaking of course.

A human who wears makeup and sports breasts because of chemical ingestion or silicon implants, is STILL not a Woman IF he/she has a penis - SEXUALLY speaking of course.

As the usual recipient organ for sex in a Male prison is the Anus - by nature of the fact that vaginas are scarce on the ground - then her/his penis and lack of a vagina is no guarantor that he/she will be safe from sexual assaut in a male prison -- especially in light of the fact that she HAS female breasts and IS a female in everything but Official Categorising only.

When the judge sentenced him/her it was to a period of imprisonment, NOT to a period of repeated sexual assaults.

Therefore, I agree with him/her being moved to a woman's prison, because he/she will at least be safer there, and it only needs a certain level of SENSIBLE planning by the Prison Authorities to ensure that NO Female prisoners are embarrassed by his/her tidgie penis during showertimes etc.

Now I am going away to look up 'Transphobia' and 'Cisgender'.

[user104658]

she's not the first TS with a dick in a woman's prison.


:omgno: how did you find out about that??

[kirklancaster]

:omgno: how did you find out about that??

:laugh::laugh: I picked up on that too and was gonna post a jokey comment, but I thought better of it. :laugh:

[Marsh.]

Provisions are made for certain types of prisoners.... A prisoner with Hepatitis or HIV, a criminal who is up on a sex charge, a prisoner who is seen as vulnerable or dangerous are not made to shower with everyone else.

So provisions can be made for her in this prison but not the one she was originally in? Ok. :laugh:

[Marsh.]

Embarrassment was the last thing on my mind when it came to his todger in the shower room Kirk. :laugh: :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Embarrassment was the last thing on my mind when it came to his todger in the shower room Kirk. :laugh: :hehe:

:laugh::laugh: I KNOW Marsh - If you mean the male prison: :hehe: "Bend over and pick us that bar of soap up will ya dearie?":joker:

[DemolitionRed]

:omgno: how did you find out about that??

I had a camera installed in Holloway :blush:

[JoshBB]

Then you need to read up on the facts of the case posted in the OP before making assumptions.

Legally, she is still male and hasn't had gender reassignment surgery.

She should be legally female, she lives as a woman and should be legally recognised as such. And, as I have said before, gender is not decided by genitals. Her gender is female. Therefore she goes to a female prison.

[DemolitionRed]

So provisions can be made for her in this prison but not the one she was originally in? Ok. :laugh:

Of course provisions could be made for her in a male prison and regardless of what her mother is now claiming, I'd be willing to bet she was protected from harm.

I don't know why you made this point towards me, I've never suggested she'd be thrown into the testosterone pit.

[DemolitionRed]

She should be legally female, she lives as a woman and should be legally recognised as such. And, as I have said before, gender is not decided by genitals. Her gender is female. Therefore she goes to a female prison.

She was female in everything except law but because she sorted out the legalities whilst waiting for her appeal, a legal female she now is.

[Marsh.]

She should be legally female, she lives as a woman and should be legally recognised as such. And, as I have said before, gender is not decided by genitals. Her gender is female. Therefore she goes to a female prison.

As already said, she hasn't taken those steps to be recognised legally.

Are legal documents supposed to magically change themselves?

It's like asking to be called a different name to the one given to you at birth. That's all well and good but you can't expect the government to recognise you as such unless you take the necessary steps to take on that name.

[JoshBB]

As already said, she hasn't taken those steps to be recognised legally.

Are legal documents supposed to magically change themselves?

It's like asking to be called a different name to the one given to you at birth. That's all well and good but you can't expect the government to recognise you as such unless you take the necessary steps to take on that name.

As far as I know her documents reflect her correctly as a woman now anyway, from your post I got the impression that she refused correct documents or something. And my other points still stand.

[Marsh.]

As far as I know her documents reflect her correctly as a woman now anyway, from your post I got the impression that she refused correct documents or something.

Yes NOW it does as she has been moved after an appeal.

Her legally being recognised as male is what influenced the decision to send her to a male prison and thus the reason this thread exists. :)

[JoshBB]

Yes NOW it does as she has been moved after an appeal.

Her legally being recognised as male is what influenced the decision to send her to a male prison and thus the reason this thread exists. :)

She clearly shouldn't have been sent in the first place - I mean it's pretty obvious if you saw her what gender she associates herself with. So a bad move by the courts on that one I guess. I'm glad she now has her appeal, and can serve time fairly in the correct prison for her.

[lostalex]

If the prison guards are doing their job properly then she wouldn't be at any increased risk in the mens prison, no more risk than any of the other male inmates face.

[Marsh.]

I mean it's pretty obvious if you saw her what gender she associates herself with.

Gender isn't physical though? :)

[Mystic Mock]

I absolutely love that song! :)

Me too, has he done a song in ages?

[lostalex]

Gender isn't physical though? :)

chromosomes are physical. so yes, it is.

[Marsh.]

chromosomes are physical. so yes, it is.

Do I have to explain? :laugh:

That was in response to a contradictory comment from JoshBB who claimed gender has nothing to do with physical attributes before commenting that it's obvious looking at this person what gender they want to be. :smug:

[Ammi]

..I'm glad that she's been transferred to a female prison and although extremely grim for her, it's good that it's been highlighted about transgender people who are still going through the transition in situations like this because it's obviously a bit of a grey area...I also wonder if her many years on replacement hormone and depression medication have had any bearing on her aggression so I hope that she has some help for that as well, if that's the case...

[Withano]

I signed a petition against this the other day, its so dumb

[Withano]

..I'm glad that she's been transferred to a female prison and although extremely grim for her, it's good that it's been highlighted about transgender people who are still going through the transition in situations like this because it's obviously a bit of a grey area...I also wonder if her many years on replacement hormone and depression medication have had any bearing on her aggression so I hope that she has some help for that as well, if that's the case...

Oh she has? Thats good then

[Ammi]

Oh she has? Thats good then

..yeah, I believe so Withano...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34675778

..I signed it also, I think it was maybe any TiBB members signing that got them worried tbh.../you don't mess with us, eh...

[Samm]

Has he had the gender reassignment surgery?

*She

If she hadn't changed her document over to say she is a women its her own fault just because you look like a women doesn't mean you should be treated like that if your ID says your a man

What the ****? It takes a very long time to be able to get the surgery in the first place, you have to go through hormone treatments and the money for the surgery as well.

At the end of the day she is a criminal whynshould she get special treatmen?

She is no more at risk then the young vulnerable lads that go in if someone has rape on there mind there going to rape anyone no matter what they look like and that is unfortunately the type of world we live in.

It's not special treatment, she's a female.

That's completely irrelevant tho?

Lmao the whole 'think of my safety' plea doesn't really wash with me after she admitted to attacking someone I'm afraid.

Well if a women (like she is) was placed in a male prison I bet you'll think differently.

She committed the crime she deals with the punishment she doesn't get to choose what prison she goes too.

If her document say she is legally a man I'm sorry but the law has to treat her as a man until she provides more proof then just her looks that's how the law works.

She's not ****ing choosing she is female.

OK I want all the vulnerable teens removed from prison because of the daily abuse they get.

Let's see how far this debate goes.

Again that's completely irrelevant.

I'm glad she got moved, and Dezzy in this thread :clap1:

[Dominic]

Can I just say this reffering to some people on here. If you don't know what a transgender is, how the transition works or about the identity issues that they have, then just stay away from this thread cause some people on here have already appeared majorly transphobic.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Can I just say this reffering to some people on here. If you don't know what a transgender is, how the transition works or about the identity issues that they have, then just stay away from this thread cause some people on here have already appeared majorly transphobic.

This thread is about the law of the land not gender issues

If people cannot see that then this thread is not for them

[Denver]

Can I just say this reffering to some people on here. If you don't know what a transgender is, how the transition works or about the identity issues that they have, then just stay away from this thread cause some people on here have already appeared majorly transphobic.

This thread is a debate on a forum about a women in prison not about her gender oh and for the record you have no right to tell any member where they can and can't post

[Denver]

:conf:*She



What the ****? It takes a very long time to be able to get the surgery in the first place, you have to go through hormone treatments and the money for the surgery as well.



It's not special treatment, she's a female.

That's completely irrelevant tho?



Well if a women (like she is) was placed in a male prison I bet you'll think differently.



She's not ****ing choosing she is female.



Again that's completely irrelevant.

I'm glad she got moved, and Dezzy in this thread :clap1:

Why is it irreverent? It's quite common knowledge that rape exist a lot in prison but look at responses in this thread you would think only trans/women bare raped.

Rape is not about whether you look like a man or women its about power and a rapist will find anybody vulnerable to show there authority.

Also no rape has been confirmed its just made up by people trying to be heroes on this subject.

[Northern Monkey]

What if the top dog recruits this person as their muscle and they have an unfair strength advantage against all the women in there.The top dog will be unbeatable.Or if another prisoner recruits this person and they take down the top dog?The dynamics in the prison will totally change.It worked for Bea Smith when she recruited a ******.She was unstopable after that.Unless the governer is a psychopath and tries to take the top dog down.But will the governer out smart her?Who knows.

[Ammi]

..it's not about the law though..the law decides and decided her sentencing of 12 weeks but it doesn't decide whether a male or female prison is the one where the sentence is served, that's for the prison service to do and that decision has now transferred her to a female prison...the law is obviously also quite grey on this...for a transgender during transition and before the final surgery because she is a female, living as and medically declared a female ../so that situation has to be addressed for any possible other similar cases...

[Dominic]

This thread is a debate on a forum about a women in prison not about her gender oh and for the record you have no right to tell any member where they can and can't post

If this thread is about prison then why have you made wrong comments about transgenders yourself?

[Denver]

If this thread is about prison then why have you made wrong comments about transgenders yourself?
Get your facts right I replied to comments about transgenders

[Liam-]

Oops, I didn't noticed I said 'he' in my first post, although I would have thought it was obvious it was a mistake by me referring to her with female pronouns through the rest of my posts :hee:

[JoshBB]

Gender isn't physical though? :)

It is clear from the fact that she is transitioning that she wants to be associated with the female gender.

chromosomes are physical. so yes, it is.

Not true. Sex and gender are different things.

[Cherie]

This thread is about the law of the land not gender issues

If people cannot see that then this thread is not for them

. This thread about how the law views her, and her not getting her legal documents sorted. If you turn up at the airport with an out of date passport and are refused permission to fly, it's not down to the airport staff to sort it for you, and its not their fault you can't fly, this case is no different

[kirklancaster]

Oops, I didn't noticed I said 'he' in my first post, although I would have thought it was obvious it was a mistake by me referring to her with female pronouns through the rest of my posts :hee:

:laugh: Don't worry Liam - It confuses me.

[kirklancaster]

gender
ˈdʒɛndə/Submit
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"

But the waters were muddied by her reportedly still having Male genitalia, and also not completing the necessary documentation, so by law 'SHE' was still a 'HE' - irrespective of 'Gender'.

If I was in prison and she was put into my cell, I would treat her as a female - but then again, that has been the exact problem; that male prisoners would do exactly that - hasn't it?

[joeysteele]

Generally regularly hard to understand the thinking or logic at times or sentencing by Magistrates, they are a law unto themselves and this is disgraceful.

[kirklancaster]

Generally regularly hard to understand the thinking or logic at times or sentencing by Magistrates, they are a law unto themselves and this is disgraceful.

I wholeheartedly agree Joey. A disgrace.

[Tom4784]

. This thread about how the law views her, and her not getting her legal documents sorted. If you turn up at the airport with an out of date passport and are refused permission to fly, it's not down to the airport staff to sort it for you, and its not their fault you can't fly, this case is no different

I disagree. An airport refusing you service due to your documents is not the same as a court knowingly putting you into a potentially dangerous situation due to pedantics. An airport does not have a duty of care towards customers with the wrong documents but the courts and prisons have that duty and they can not willingly endanger a prisoner. The magistrates should have considered her circumstances before they put her into a dangerous mismatched prison that doesn't have the resources to to fulfill the Duty of Care towards her.

[Jamie89]

It might be a little off topic (I'm losing track with this thread lol) but I just want to say (because there's been a lot of talk about her still have a penis) that we may not know the full reasons behind why she hasn't undergone the 'full' physical transformation yet. It might not necessarily be choice. I think I've mentioned before that I've got a friend who is a female to male transsexual and for a long time he lived as a man without having the final operation done. There was a lot of red tape for him to get through and for ages he was refused surgery by the psychologists assessing him for quite complex reasons (even though all the other surgeries had been agreed on and completed!), so for a while he was in a physical state of half and half I suppose you could say, but that wasn't his fault. And of course medical information like that is generally confidential and so it may not have been reported on in this case. I'm just saying that it might not be her fault or choice that not all the surgeries are completed.

[Tom4784]

It might be a little off topic (I'm losing track with this thread lol) but I just want to say (because there's been a lot of talk about her still have a penis) that we may not know the full reasons behind why she hasn't undergone the 'full' physical transformation yet. It might not necessarily be choice. I think I've mentioned before that I've got a friend who is a female to male transsexual and for a long time he lived as a man without having the final operation done. There was a lot of red tape for him to get through and for ages he was refused surgery by the psychologists assessing him for quite complex reasons (even though all the other surgeries had been agreed on and completed!), so for a while he was in a physical state of half and half I suppose you could say, but that wasn't his fault. And of course medical information like that is generally confidential and so it may not have been reported on in this case. I'm just saying that it might not be her fault or choice that not all the surgeries are completed.

That's very true.

[Crimson Dynamo]

She is a nasty criminal so personally i dont give 2 fecks about her

[Denver]

She is a nasty criminal so personally i dont give 2 fecks about her

Like wise people only care about her but they don't care about the danger of the women who she is likely to beat

[Crimson Dynamo]

Last Friday, the make-up artist was jailed after she admitted headbutting a barman in Bath, causing damage to his teeth.


She has eight previous convictions including offences for battery and had hoped her punishment would be less severe.

But magistrates said the assault, which came three weeks after Hudson had been given a conditional discharge, was so serious that only custody could be justified.


Source> BBC website

[Denver]

What a disgusting thug

[Tom4784]

It's not about the crime, no one is disputing that she deserves the sentence but it's the choice of prison that was originally the issue here.

Masking your casual desire to see this woman put in harm's way by calling her a thug and highlighting her crimes doesn't make you noble or justified.

[JoshBB]

Like wise people only care about her but they don't care about the danger of the women who she is likely to beat

You do realise there are such thing as prison guards right??

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not about the crime, no one is disputing that she deserves the sentence but it's the choice of prison that was originally the issue here.

Masking your casual desire to see this woman put in harm's way by calling her a thug and highlighting her crimes doesn't make you noble or justified.



she is a thug that is beyond debate. You have no idea is she would be in any harm in a male prison. Your experience of male prisons is zero.

[Denver]

Stop putting words I'm our mouths as nobody has said they want her to be hurt I'm sorry some of us don't feel the need to pity her because she is trans

[JoshBB]

Oops, I didn't noticed I said 'he' in my first post, although I would have thought it was obvious it was a mistake by me referring to her with female pronouns through the rest of my posts :hee:

There is a guy at my school who is transgender, and I have accidentally slipped up a few times and used the word 'she' as that's what I was used to calling them before they came out. But I always make sure to correct it and I think that's all that matters really. No harm in mistakes. :)

[Denver]

You do realise there are such thing as prison guards right??

You do realise prison guards cants keep a eye out 24\7

[JoshBB]

Stop putting words I'm our mouths as nobody has said they want her to be hurt I'm sorry some of us don't feel the need to pity her because she is trans

Well you don't seem to be particularly concerned for her wellbeing. And the "she will get what she deserves" mentality surrounding this thread shows that some people honestly couldn't care less if she got attacked in there.

[JoshBB]

You do realise prison guards cants keep a eye out 24\7

Yes but let's not make the assumption that she can go around beating up all the other women without consequence. It is likely that she would be isolated if she was found to be acting violently to other inmates.

[kirklancaster]

It would be nice if some members expressed just a tenth of the concern they have for her wellbeing, for the wellbeing of all her assaulted victims - be they straight, gay or trans or anything else.

[Marsh.]

It is clear from the fact that she is transitioning that she wants to be associated with the female gender.

So on the one hand we shouldn't be bigoted enough to align sex with gender but on the other hand we should clearly see which gender this person wishes to be from the sex they dress up as?

Ok.

[Crimson Dynamo]

she is a danger to a woman prison

[Tom4784]

she is a thug that is beyond debate. You have no idea is she would be in any harm in a male prison. Your experience of male prisons is zero.

As is yours if you're naive enough to think she'd be perfectly fine in a male prison.

Stop putting words I'm our mouths as nobody has said they want her to be hurt I'm sorry some of us don't feel the need to pity her because she is trans

It's not about pity. it's about justice and your ignorance. If a normal woman was sentenced to serve time in a male prison you'd be up in arms about it, you wouldn't highlight her crime as justification for any misfortune that would befall her in the prison.

As I've said a thousand times in this thread, and it's been ignored a thousand times because people like you can't argue against it. The magistrates failed in their duty of care towards the prisoner. Like it or not, we need to treat criminals like human beings and not animals, it's what makes us better than them. If the justice system was as petty as some of the people in this thread then it would be a case of the blind leading the blind.

By initially putting this prisoner in a male prison when the only thing male about her is her genitals is a failure of the system. It's not justice to willingly put a prisoner in harm's way, it's petty as is trying to downplay the injustice by highlighting her crimes. It's not about her goddamn crime, it's about the fact that the court failed to perform their duties correctly.

[Cherie]

I disagree. An airport refusing you service due to your documents is not the same as a court knowingly putting you into a potentially dangerous situation due to pedantics. An airport does not have a duty of care towards customers with the wrong documents but the courts and prisons have that duty and they can not willingly endanger a prisoner. The magistrates should have considered her circumstances before they put her into a dangerous mismatched prison that doesn't have the resources to to fulfill the Duty of Care towards her.

I'm not au fait with how sentencing works but I would hazard a guess that the person who processed her after sentencing never clapped eyes on her and was going by the details logged in when she was arrested, her bank account must be in her male name as well, I can't understand her mentality that she would not want to change such important personal details about herself after all these years as living as a woman

[Crimson Dynamo]

there are plenty men who act and look like women in male prisons and get treated well. In fact they get special treatment.

[Marsh.]

The only thing male about her is her genitals?

So, what about the effeminate men who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? Are they not spared spending time in a prison with a bunch of burly blokes?

This is different because she just so happens to have had silicone implants?

[JoshBB]

So on the one hand we shouldn't be bigoted enough to align sex with gender but on the other hand we should clearly see which gender this person wishes to be from the sex they dress up as?

Ok.

I never said it was bigoted to align sex with gender - just misinformed.

And in regards to the bold, it is clear that they wish to live as a woman. From not just the way she is clearly changing their look to appear female, she would clearly not be happy to be labelled male and therefore should not be put in a male prison.

[Kizzy]

I guess that in grey areas like this it comes down to legal status... If you're legally a man then I guess you are processed as a male?

[Marsh.]

I never said it was bigoted to align sex with gender - just misinformed.

And in regards to the bold, it is clear that they wish to live as a woman. From not just the way she is clearly changing their look to appear female, she would clearly not be happy to be labelled male and therefore should not be put in a male prison.

But again, gender has nothing to do with physical features, right?

Therefore you're contradicting yourself.

You can't say a penis doesn't make her male, but a pair of fake boobs make her female.

Edited to add, there are a great many males out there who like to dress in women's clothes, be effeminate but still wish to remain known as male. So, again, their physical appearance is no indication of anything.

[Northern Monkey]

Last Friday, the make-up artist was jailed after she admitted headbutting a barman in Bath, causing damage to his teeth.


She has eight previous convictions including offences for battery and had hoped her punishment would be less severe.

But magistrates said the assault, which came three weeks after Hudson had been given a conditional discharge, was so serious that only custody could be justified.


Source> BBC websiteMale strength with female hormones.A lethal combination!

[Northern Monkey]

Yes but let's not make the assumption that she can go around beating up all the other women without consequence. It is likely that she would be isolated if she was found to be acting violently to other inmates.

None of the guards would know though.You don't go lagging on people in prison.

[DemolitionRed]

This is about other trans females that ended up in male prisons
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tammy-nelson-phd/being-transgender-in-pris_b_8333458.html

The sad thing is, a tg may have to wait many, many years before an operation is offered on the NHS and they need to have very deep pockets if they want to have this done privately. This woman is only 26 and although she'd been given hormone replacement and therapy since the age of 16, if she couldn't afford the op (which she may not of been able to have for medical reasons) she will have to remain on a very long waiting list.

I also didn't know that many trans women are physically/health wise not suitable for full vaginoplasty.

Anyway, she got huge public support, not for her crime but for the wrong choice of prison she was sent to. Its great to read all the FB responses because it makes you realise just how accepted trans people are in this country.

[lostalex]

It is clear from the fact that she is transitioning that she wants to be associated with the female gender.



Not true. Sex and gender are different things.

but gender is just in your mind, right? so if someone thinks they are a bear do they get to live in a zoo?

[Lostie!]

but gender is just in your mind, right? so if someone thinks they are a bear do they get to live in a zoo?

Since when was "bear" a gender?

[Marsh.]

Since when was "bear" a gender?

:omgno:

[Z]

If I'd been assaulted I'd be devastated that the person who beat me up badly enough for them to have been sentenced to 12 weeks in jail was getting the sympathy of the nation.

[JoshBB]

If I'd been assaulted I'd be devastated that the person who beat me up badly enough for them to have been sentenced to 12 weeks in jail was getting the sympathy of the nation.

oh yeah, forget sympathy right?? You know what, why don't we just strap her up to a chair and torture her for the remainder of her life?

That's not how the criminal justice system works. The law says that she should serve time in prison, and as she is female she should be in a female prison. It's as simple as that.

[JoshBB]

but gender is just in your mind, right? so if someone thinks they are a bear do they get to live in a zoo?

...

Since when was "bear" a gender?

this ^^

Don't be ridiculous alex, that's not the same and you know it.

[Z]

oh yeah, forget sympathy right?? You know what, why don't we just strap her up to a chair and torture her for the remainder of her life?

That's not how the criminal justice system works. The law says that she should serve time in prison, and as she is female she should be in a female prison. It's as simple as that.

Calm down - I just think it's a shame for the victim of the assault that this is overshadowing the reason why the perpetrator was sentenced in the first place.

[bots]

oh yeah, forget sympathy right?? You know what, why don't we just strap her up to a chair and torture her for the remainder of her life?

That's not how the criminal justice system works. The law says that she should serve time in prison, and as she is female she should be in a female prison. It's as simple as that.

How many times does it need to be repeated? Legally she is a male. That's how the law works!

It amazes me that this person is getting all this gushing support. This poor fragile woman, that has a record of assaults, goes up to a man in a bar and head butts him ... very lady like behaviour .... not. If she (and I use that term very loosly as I have never met or heard of a woman that would head butt a man) deserves zero sympathy.

[AnnieK]

I hope she gets some anger management classes /assistance as she obviously has violent tendancies

[Jack_]

very lady like behaviour .... not. If she (and I use that term very loosly as I have never met or heard of a woman that would head butt a man)

:umm2:

[user104658]

I have never met or heard of a woman that would head butt a man

You've lived a rather sheltered existence then :joker:

[kirklancaster]

Calm down - I just think it's a shame for the victim of the assault that this is overshadowing the reason why the perpetrator was sentenced in the first place.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Kizzy]

You've lived a rather sheltered existence then :joker:

Yep I'd kick the crap out of you in a heartbeat....











ly rly

[lostalex]

Since when was "bear" a gender?

it's an "identity".

since when is growing your hair long and wearing dresses a gender? most women i know don't wear dresses, and i'm sure most of them would like to get a free boob job too, but that's not what makes them a female.

I truly believe some people are transgender, and i have no problem calling this woman a woman. but that does;'t mean she doesn't still have a male body and she poses just as much of a treat to other female inmates as another biological male would. Let's also remember she has a clear history of violence.

[Marsh.]

it's an "identity".

since when is growing your hair long and wearing dresses a gender? most women i know don't wear dresses, and i'm sure most of them would like to get a free boob job too, but that's not what makes them a female.

:clap1:

[Lostie!]

it's an "identity".

since when is growing your hair long and wearing dresses a gender? most women i know don't wear dresses, and i'm sure most of them would like to get a free boob job too, but that's not what makes them a female.

I truly believe some people are transgender, and i have no problem calling this woman a woman. but that does;'t mean she doesn't still have a male body and she poses just as much of a treat to other female inmates as another biological male would. Let's also remember she has a clear history of violence.

Well, firstly I think it's rather silly to compare transgenderism with identifying as a bear but hey ho.

I also think the "she still has a male body so she's more dangerous to women" argument is a little flimsy since it perpetuates that stereotype that men = strong, women = weak. Believe it or not, plenty of women are more physically able than plenty of men. And what about the less physically strong men in the male prison? Does their welfare not concern you as much as that of the women? It's not like female prisons are just full of wilting daisies and male prisons are just full of burly tough nuts who can handle themselves.

And nobody's disputing her criminal history, hence why nobody is disputing that she deserves jail time. All that said, the only factor that should have a bearing on where she serves her sentence is what she's legally identified as and if she's still legally identified as a male (even if that's not how she self-identifies) then it all becomes a bit of a grey area.

[Kizzy]

it's an "identity".

since when is growing your hair long and wearing dresses a gender? most women i know don't wear dresses, and i'm sure most of them would like to get a free boob job too, but that's not what makes them a female.

I truly believe some people are transgender, and i have no problem calling this woman a woman. but that does;'t mean she doesn't still have a male body and she poses just as much of a treat to other female inmates as another biological male would. Let's also remember she has a clear history of violence.

This reminds me of what the poet John Cooper Clark said before he read 'crossing the floor', a psychiatrist wouldn't tell a person thinking they were napoleon to buy a white horse and invade Russia.