Junior doctors threaten strike action

[Kizzy]

Jeremy Hunt has condemned what he described as “extreme action” after the British Medical Association (BMA) said junior doctors would take strike action on three days in December.

The health secretary is gearing up for a fierce battle with the profession, despite NHS bosses and leaders of the medical profession warning him that a protracted dispute will seriously disrupt services just when they are under the most pressure.

The BMA said junior doctors would walk out on 1, 8 and 16 December over a new contract Hunt is threatening to impose on them if, as expected, their ongoing ballot approves industrial action.

“Threatening extreme action is totally unwarranted and will harm vulnerable patients. Refusing to talk to a government that wants to improve weekend care for patients and reduce doctors’ hours can only damage the NHS,” said Hunt on Thursday'

Junior doctors, 20,000 of whom staged a protest march in London last month, are furious that the proposed new contract will hugely extend the hours in any week for which they are paid basic rates of pay from the current finish-time of 7pm on weekdays to 10pm and, crucially, will also include Saturday up until teatime for the first time.

I'm supporting the doctors here, what are your thoughts?

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/12/hunt-condemns-junior-doctors-extreme-three-day-strike-proposal

[the truth]

The doctors are totally in the wrong.....funny how they never striked or marches about the tens of thousands of additional people who died every weekend through lack of doctors and staff....all these junior doctors want is their double time at the weekend IF they choose to work. theyre selfish. this new deal means they work less hours not more and will save tens of thousands more lives at weekends

[joeysteele]

The Junior Doctors are totally right and have had enough, Jeremy Hunt has made a massive mess of this and if this PM has any gumption about him at all and does have even the slightest respect for Doctors and the NHS he will move Hunt and hopefully put someone in who at least will 'try' to understand the junior Doctors concerns.

We will lose many of them as they leave to go abroad if this govt doesn't get its finger out and start both listening and more importantly talking 'to' them, rather than 'at' them..

[Kizzy]

'Hundreds of consultants from the Royal Free London NHS foundation trust have written to the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, to express their support for junior doctors and to back possible industrial action.

In a letter to the Guardian, the 505 consultants, who will bear the brunt of any potential strike, say they recognise that junior doctors are an integral part of the health service.


“An empowered, rested, happy and appropriately remunerated workforce across all cadres of medical, nursing and allied health professional staff is essential to sustain high clinical standards in the face of increasingly complex healthcare delivery challenges,” they add.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/13/hundreds-consultants-jeremy-hunt-support-junior-doctors-back-strike

[Kizzy]

'The NHS is about to be hit by a wave of strikes after junior doctors voted overwhelmingly to walk out in protest at the government’s decision to impose a contract on them which they regard as unfair and unsafe.

In a ballot of more than 37,000 junior doctors in England, organised by the British Medical Association, 98% have voted in favour of full strike action. Ninety-nine per cent voted for action short of a strike.

The decision means that non-urgent services in many hospitals, such as planned operations and outpatient clinics, will have to be cancelled on the three strike days announced so far – 1, 8 and 16 December – as many of the NHS’s 45,000 trainee doctors take action.

Junior doctors – all medics below the level of a consultant – last took strike action 40 years ago, in November 1975, also over a new contract they claimed would lead to them working dangerously long hours.'

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/19/nhs-strikes-junior-doctors-vote-action-bma

[Crimson Dynamo]

The doctors are totally in the wrong.....funny how they never striked or marches about the tens of thousands of additional people who died every weekend through lack of doctors and staff....all these junior doctors want is their double time at the weekend IF they choose to work. theyre selfish. this new deal means they work less hours not more and will save tens of thousands more lives at weekends
:clap1:

[Kizzy]

'Hunt wants junior doctors to become more flexible in their working patterns to help deliver the fully seven-day NHS that the Conservatives pledged in the general election and which has become one of their priorities for government. He wants to extend the times of the week known as “plain time”, in which junior doctors are paid only basic rates for working, from the current 7am-7pm Monday to Friday to 7am-10pm on weekdays and from 7am until late afternoon on Saturdays'

[arista]

The doctors are totally in the wrong.....funny how they never striked or marches about the tens of thousands of additional people who died every weekend through lack of doctors and staff....all these junior doctors want is their double time at the weekend IF they choose to work. theyre selfish. this new deal means they work less hours not more and will save tens of thousands more lives at weekends


Yes Well Said

[Northern Monkey]

I'm with the Doctors.If they are expected to work extra and unsociable hours it should be reflected in their pay packet.Just forcing extra hours on them with no insentive is'nt fair and will lead to poor moral and thus a poor and unfriendly service.

[Niamh.]

Totally agree with them, I don't know what it's like over there but here Junior Doctors are totally over worked and under appreciated

[Niamh.]

I'm with the Doctors.If they are expected to work extra and unsociable hours it should be reflected in their pay packet.Just forcing extra hours on them with no insentive is'nt fair and will lead to poor moral and thus a poor and unfriendly service.

Of course and I love how people get on their moral high horses about it acting like Doctors should just be working all the hours under the sun for no extra pay just because their job is looking after people. As if anyone here would work extra, unsociable hours for nothing

[Kizzy]

I'm with the Doctors.If they are expected to work extra and unsociable hours it should be reflected in their pay packet.Just forcing extra hours on them with no insentive is'nt fair and will lead to poor moral and thus a poor and unfriendly service.

It will lead to deaths and that in turn will lead to loss of faith in the service from the public which will result in 'special measures' and hospitals being gifted to the private sector.... unregulated of course, so any shortcomings don't reflect badly on the shareholders.

[DemolitionRed]

Totally with the doctors on this one. The government tried to con them into believing they were getting a pay rise. Fortunately doctors are intelligent enough to work it out!

Its the junior doctors going on strike and so its not all doctors and I've heard from the horses mouth that consultants will be working extra hours on those days.

[Kizzy]

Urgh him asking the 'moderate' Drs to rebel against the 'militant' Drs?.... Tosspot.

[joeysteele]

Totally with the doctors on this one. The government tried to con them into believing they were getting a pay rise. Fortunately doctors are intelligent enough to work it out!

Its the junior doctors going on strike and so its not all doctors and I've heard from the horses mouth that consultants will be working extra hours on those days.

Absolutely right, this deal is also threatened to be imposed if junior Doctors don't accept it.
What a way to deal with such an important group of people.

Jeremy Hunt ably supported by this useless PM and the rest of the govt,has made an almighty mess of all dealings with the Doctors.
The govt have brought the situation to the crisis point it is now, I am 100% solidly with the junior Doctors.

[JoshBB]

I support the Junior Doctors, their right to strike, and I think a strike was absolutely necessary with the government's refusal to listen to them.

[smudgie]

The hours that a junior doctor works in any given week should be limited to a reasonable amount.
Not at all sure how all the hours/wages are actually going to be worked out at.
The shift system/ rota should be paid at whatever is the norm for other workers,
Overtime rates etc for doing extra hours.
Loads of people work on weekends at the same rate if it is part of a rota system and not overtime and they should be treated the same.
Their rate of pay should reflect the importance of their job.

[bots]

why should doctors be treated any differently to anyone else. They do a job, they get paid. If they don't like it, they can seek alternative employment.

[Kizzy]

why should doctors be treated any differently to anyone else. They do a job, they get paid. If they don't like it, they can seek alternative employment.

What, because the govt treat everyone like crap doctors should accept this?

[JoshBB]

why should doctors be treated any differently to anyone else. They do a job, they get paid. If they don't like it, they can seek alternative employment.

Seek alternative employment such as what, private company-owned hospitals? Can you imagine the atrocity if every junior doctor did that.. the NHS would be driven to destruction. We cannot ignore them, for the sake of future generations' health especially those on lower incomes.

Their demands are not unreasonable. Jeremy Hunt is doing another magic trick by raising their pay by 11% while at the same time, docking pay for overtime and non-social hours, as well as night shifts. Their conditions are essentially the same thing rebranded. The whole purpose of this is so the right-wing press can portray the trade unions in a negative light yet again because of strikes, and the reason for these strikes is the government. So if you're going to blame anyone for inconveniences and disruption, it's Hunt who the anger should be aimed at.

[the truth]

Yes Well Said

disgusting greedy junior doctors.....they just want their double pay at weekends, if people die from neglect here should be charged with manslaughter

[JoshBB]

disgusting greedy junior doctors.....they just want their double pay at weekends, if people die from neglect here should be charged with manslaughter

No. Disgusting self-serving Jeremy Hunt. He could easily raise the top rate of tax by say, 2%, to pay for many aspects that are being cut under current plans.. but he knows that his party is funded by very rich individuals and he doesn't want to upset them so he continues his austerity programme even though it is proven to have a negative impact on working people while also raising unemployment and thus hindering growth.

We have a right to strike when an employer treats us unfairly in this country, and the junior doctors are exercising that right. We must support them.

[Kizzy]

The service is stretched beyond capacity as it is, A&E waiting times are well over the target, how is expanding existing Drs and resources going to cope with a 24/7 service?
An 11% sweetener isn't the issue it's just not viable, Hunt is attempting to set them up to fail and they know this.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

disgusting greedy junior doctors.....they just want their double pay at weekends, if people die from neglect here should be charged with manslaughter

Yes. Disgusting, greedy junior doctors, who are still striking despite the fact they were presented with an 11% pay rise, which they didn't want or ask for. Oh wait.. maybe it's not about the money after all...

[the truth]

No. Disgusting self-serving Jeremy Hunt. He could easily raise the top rate of tax by say, 2%, to pay for many aspects that are being cut under current plans.. but he knows that his party is funded by very rich individuals and he doesn't want to upset them so he continues his austerity programme even though it is proven to have a negative impact on working people while also raising unemployment and thus hindering growth.

We have a right to strike when an employer treats us unfairly in this country, and the junior doctors are exercising that right. We must support them.

10000s die because doctors wont work weekends....100000s more will die because junior doctors are striking not to work weekends.....these scumbags have blood on their hands

[joeysteele]

No. Disgusting self-serving Jeremy Hunt. He could easily raise the top rate of tax by say, 2%, to pay for many aspects that are being cut under current plans.. but he knows that his party is funded by very rich individuals and he doesn't want to upset them so he continues his austerity programme even though it is proven to have a negative impact on working people while also raising unemployment and thus hindering growth.

We have a right to strike when an employer treats us unfairly in this country, and the junior doctors are exercising that right. We must support them.

Well said again and in my opinion 100% correct as well.

[bots]

Seek alternative employment such as what, private company-owned hospitals? Can you imagine the atrocity if every junior doctor did that.. the NHS would be driven to destruction. We cannot ignore them, for the sake of future generations' health especially those on lower incomes.

Their demands are not unreasonable. Jeremy Hunt is doing another magic trick by raising their pay by 11% while at the same time, docking pay for overtime and non-social hours, as well as night shifts. Their conditions are essentially the same thing rebranded. The whole purpose of this is so the right-wing press can portray the trade unions in a negative light yet again because of strikes, and the reason for these strikes is the government. So if you're going to blame anyone for inconveniences and disruption, it's Hunt who the anger should be aimed at.

Everyone has a choice. They can go into other work that pays more money if that is what floats their boat. The point is there are choices, and the government are entitled to set out the terms under which employment is offered to those they are paying for.

The doctors won't win this one, and I am fully backing the government in bringing this mess under control.

[the truth]

Everyone has a choice. They can go into other work that pays more money if that is what floats their boat. The point is there are choices, and the government are entitled to set out the terms under which employment is offered to those they are paying for.

The doctors won't win this one, and I am fully backing the government in bringing this mess under control.

me too...under this plan 1) junior doctors and doctors work LESS hours a week 2) get paid more and 3) 10,000s more lives will be saved

end of

[Kizzy]

me too...under this plan 1) junior doctors and doctors work LESS hours a week 2) get paid more and 3) 10,000s more lives will be saved

end of

How... without recruitment of more doctors how is this possible, where in the 22 non negotiable conditions did it say they would work less and be paid more?

It's people with no working rights who suggest nobody else have them, why should they have what I don't...it's not fair, take them away immediately!
Or those who feel they are untouchable, which of course nobody is with this govt, as soon as their professions are affected we'll see a sharp change.

[the truth]

How... without recruitment of more doctors how is this possible, where in the 22 non negotiable conditions did it say they would work less and be paid more?

It's people with no working rights who suggest nobody else have them, why should they have what I don't...it's not fair, take them away immediately!
Or those who feel they are untouchable, which of course nobody is with this govt, as soon as their professions are affected we'll see a sharp change.


How? its simple maths, they work less hours as the shift patterns are staggered across 7 days.

[Kizzy]

How? its simple maths, they work less hours as the shift patterns are staggered across 7 days.

they are stretched as it is... how can they be stretched any further, by expecting them to work 15hrs on basic pay instead of 12 and weekends too?

[kirklancaster]

No. Disgusting self-serving Jeremy Hunt. He could easily raise the top rate of tax by say, 2%, to pay for many aspects that are being cut under current plans.. but he knows that his party is funded by very rich individuals and he doesn't want to upset them so he continues his austerity programme even though it is proven to have a negative impact on working people while also raising unemployment and thus hindering growth.

We have a right to strike when an employer treats us unfairly in this country, and the junior doctors are exercising that right. We must support them.

An excellent post. I think that raising the top rate of tax is THE most sensible solution to this country's problems. I do not believe in 'soaking the rich' because it does NOT work, but there is a 'tipping point' at which it becomes an obscenity for the really high income earners to enjoy lenient taxation when two thirds of the population have now NO disposable income left from their hard-earned pay after paying living expenses for living frugally.

A lot of the top earners not only have massive incomes in their own right but enjoy huge fortunes in Inherited Wealth on top of which they add to by being able to save because there are only so many houses, luxury goods, and other trappings even the most extravagant of wealthy people can own, then that high income is virtually all 'disposable' after living expenses.

The super rich, benefit also because they can afford to pay highly skilled accountants to handle their income, saved wealth, and investments to keep as much of it out of the taxman's hands as possible.

I remember one year when I was young and working 60 hours + per work (saving for a deposit for a house purchase) I paid MORE income tax, than HM The Queen (£4 Billion net worth) and her pal Lord Vestey who had a million plus income and over £700 million net worth at the time.

ALL governments in the UK have always paid 'Lip Service' to true equity when it comes to its citizens - usually doing enough to satisfy the 'working classes' whilst still favouring the 'elite' - but there comes a point where pandering to GREED by increasing NEED is what the abhorrent Edward Heath in one of his more 'decent' moments, called 'The Unacceptable Face of Capitalism'.

I see no reason why Junior Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Policemen or the Military - among others - should not be fairly renumerated for their jobs and overtime worked and no reason why they should be emotionally blackmailed and have their conscience pricked just because they are in 'Public Service' professions.

Vocation or no Vocation - they all still have to eat and live.

[Niamh.]

Well said Kirk

[kirklancaster]

Well said Kirk

Thanks Niamh.

[DemolitionRed]

Everyone has a choice. They can go into other work that pays more money if that is what floats their boat. The point is there are choices, and the government are entitled to set out the terms under which employment is offered to those they are paying for.

The doctors won't win this one, and I am fully backing the government in bringing this mess under control.

They will…The GMC are presently receiving around 700 new applications a day from student doctors wishing to transfer overseas. They normally get around 20 a day. This means our best A level student who graduate from 5-6 years of gruelling study to get their medical degrees and who now face a further four years of being a junior doctor whilst paying back their tuition and indemnity fees, will likely choose a better alternative.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

I see no reason why Junior Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Policemen or the Military - among others - should not be fairly renumerated for their jobs and overtime worked and no reason why they should be emotionally blackmailed and have their conscience pricked just because they are in 'Public Service' professions.

Vocation or no Vocation - they all still have to eat and live.

:clap1: I couldn't agree more Kirk- people expect public sector workers just to lay down and take whatever is thrown at them. I expect people will complain about the lives that are lost due to overworked and tired doctors making mistakes- "the negligent, incompetent b*st*rds!".

[Denver]

It does make me sick how Footballers get up to 300k a week and people that deserve the money get pretty much Feck all

[Gusto Brunt]

Who else thinks that Jeremy Hunt looks like Norman Bates? :eek:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Jeremy_Hunt_Official.jpg/220px-Jeremy_Hunt_Official.jpg

http://www.netbrawl.com/uploads/e867960129080f3a4b10c56f5d3b309c.jpg

[Denver]

Who else thinks that Jeremy Hunt looks like Norman Bates? :eek:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Jeremy_Hunt_Official.jpg/220px-Jeremy_Hunt_Official.jpg

http://www.netbrawl.com/uploads/e867960129080f3a4b10c56f5d3b309c.jpg

Who is Norman Bates anyway?

[AnnieK]

I very rarely agree with strike action but on this occasion it does seem to be the only option to make Hunt sit and think. If the terms of employment set out mean more junior doctors leave the profession, what then? Also I would much prefer a well rested doc tending to me and mine rather than one who may resort to self medicating to make it through a shift or has worked to the point of exhaustion. No one functions well under those circumstances and should a doctor be treating a patient mistakes can and will cost lives

[DemolitionRed]

I very rarely agree with strike action but on this occasion it does seem to be the only option to make Hunt sit and think. If the terms of employment set out mean more junior doctors leave the profession, what then? Also I would much prefer a well rested doc tending to me and mine rather than one who may resort to self medicating to make it through a shift or has worked to the point of exhaustion. No one functions well under those circumstances and should a doctor be treating a patient mistakes can and will cost lives

Exactly^
If my dad was rushed to the emergency room with a ruptured bowl, I'd want an alert doctor to deal with him, not an exhausted one.

[Kizzy]

Exactly^
If my dad was rushed to the emergency room with a ruptured bowel, I'd want an alert doctor to deal with him, not an exhausted one.

Edited because my grammar and spelling is always a mess!

;)

[the truth]

They will…The GMC are presently receiving around 700 new applications a day from student doctors wishing to transfer overseas. They normally get around 20 a day. This means our best A level student who graduate from 5-6 years of gruelling study to get their medical degrees and who now face a further four years of being a junior doctor whilst paying back their tuition and indemnity fees, will likely choose a better alternative.

good. if that's where the heartless mercenaries want to go....thankfully they have to pay back their tuition fees

[Marsh.]

Who is Norman Bates anyway?

D:

[the truth]

they are stretched as it is... how can they be stretched any further, by expecting them to work 15hrs on basic pay instead of 12 and weekends too?

thy are now working less hours an the weekends are shared. 10000s more lives will now be saved and over time will not be paid. that's what I call a moral result.

[the truth]

Exactly^
If my dad was rushed to the emergency room with a ruptured bowl, I'd want an alert doctor to deal with him, not an exhausted one.

on weekends under labour, you get no doctor in many parts

[joeysteele]

I very rarely agree with strike action but on this occasion it does seem to be the only option to make Hunt sit and think. If the terms of employment set out mean more junior doctors leave the profession, what then? Also I would much prefer a well rested doc tending to me and mine rather than one who may resort to self medicating to make it through a shift or has worked to the point of exhaustion. No one functions well under those circumstances and should a doctor be treating a patient mistakes can and will cost lives

Hi AnnieK, great post, so good to see so many realising the govt is trying to pull a fast one here and that the junior Doctors have a real case.
Even the Consultants are backing them and that does not come easily believe me.
Hunt has made a massive mess of the whole thing and all he can do is threaten to impose the deal if they don't accept it voluntarily.
What arrogance and stupidity too.

[the truth]

Hi AnnieK, great post, so good to see so many realising the govt is trying to pull a fast one here and that the junior Doctors have a real case.
Even the Consultants are backing them and that does not come easily believe me.
Hunt has made a massive mess of the whole thing and all he can do is threaten to impose the deal if they don't accept it voluntarily.
What arrogance and stupidity too.

he is pretty charmless but morally he is in the right. the junior doctors must work compulsory some weekends to save 100000s of lives. most posts are motivated by tory hate here and do not talk about the FACT tens of thousands die at weekends because doctors wont work weekends and demand over time for doing so, something the nhs cannot afford. I love my fellow man more than I hate tories.

[Vicky.]

I cannot blame them tbh. I'm usually completely against strikes and such, but it really is needed this time.

[DemolitionRed]

Edited because my grammar and spelling is always a mess!

;)
:joker::joker::joker:

[Vicky.]

More hours for less pay is never right though, and thats what he is proposing. Wonder if he would do any 'more' work (what is it he does anyways, besides insult working people?) for less pay and more importantly, NO expenses account ;)

[kirklancaster]

:clap1: I couldn't agree more Kirk- people expect public sector workers just to lay down and take whatever is thrown at them. I expect people will complain about the lives that are lost due to overworked and tired doctors making mistakes- "the negligent, incompetent b*st*rds!".

Thank you APWD - It's nice to be appreciated. People should remember whose fault it is that this problem has escalated to this stage in the first place.

[the truth]

Thank you APWD - It's nice to be appreciated. People should remember whose fault it is that this problem has escalated to this stage in the first place.

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

[kirklancaster]

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

We do not often disagree Truth, but here I'm afraid we are Poles apart. I do not think you read my original post on this subject so I replicate it here. Read it, then please give me your response so I can reply to it:

"....I think that raising the top rate of tax is THE most sensible solution to this country's problems. I do not believe in 'soaking the rich' because it does NOT work, but there is a 'tipping point' at which it becomes an obscenity for the really high income earners to enjoy lenient taxation when two thirds of the population have now NO disposable income left from their hard-earned pay after paying living expenses for living frugally.

A lot of the top earners not only have massive incomes in their own right but enjoy huge fortunes in Inherited Wealth on top of which they add to by being able to save because there are only so many houses, luxury goods, and other trappings even the most extravagant of wealthy people can own, then that high income is virtually all 'disposable' after living expenses.

The super rich, benefit also because they can afford to pay highly skilled accountants to handle their income, saved wealth, and investments to keep as much of it out of the taxman's hands as possible.

I remember one year when I was young and working 60 hours + per work (saving for a deposit for a house purchase) I paid MORE income tax, than HM The Queen (£4 Billion net worth) and her pal Lord Vestey who had a million plus income and over £700 million net worth at the time.

ALL governments in the UK have always paid 'Lip Service' to true equity when it comes to its citizens - usually doing enough to satisfy the 'working classes' whilst still favouring the 'elite' - but there comes a point where pandering to GREED by increasing NEED is what the abhorrent Edward Heath in one of his more 'decent' moments, called 'The Unacceptable Face of Capitalism'.

I see no reason why Junior Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Policemen or the Military - among others - should not be fairly renumerated for their jobs and overtime worked and no reason why they should be emotionally blackmailed and have their conscience pricked just because they are in 'Public Service' professions.

Vocation or no Vocation - they all still have to eat and live."

[DemolitionRed]

I take it you hold no value for public sector workers TheTruth ?

Whilst consultants and specialists and GP's get paid a lot more, junior doctors earn between £23,000-£28,000 which is more or less the same as a nurse or midwife who earn between £21,692 - £28,180.

[Kizzy]

he is pretty charmless but morally he is in the right. the junior doctors must work compulsory some weekends to save 100000s of lives. most posts are motivated by tory hate here and do not talk about the FACT tens of thousands die at weekends because doctors wont work weekends and demand over time for doing so, something the nhs cannot afford. I love my fellow man more than I hate tories.

You're confusing junior doctors with GPs aren't you?....

[Vicky.]

We need more doctors, not to overwork the ones we already have. And as I said before, it is unreasonable to expect people to do more work for less money.

[the truth]

I take it you hold no value for public sector workers TheTruth ?

Whilst consultants and specialists and GP's get paid a lot more, junior doctors earn between £23,000-£28,000 which is more or less the same as a nurse or midwife who earn between £21,692 - £28,180.

I take it you have no value for the tens of thousands of people who die on weekends because not enough doctors will work and those that do want double pay over time

as for your accusations I don't care about public sector workers, what a damned lie. that wage you quote above is a good wage for trainees. they will be on 6 figures after than for the rest of their career and many do private as well. so you can put your violin down. The public sector workers who I do have sympathy for are not doctors but firemen and some in the social services. but of course you label everyone a bigot if they don't agree with your tory hatred 24 hours a day

[the truth]

We need more doctors, not to overwork the ones we already have. And as I said before, it is unreasonable to expect people to do more work for less money.

they \are doing less work, they just don't get over time for weekends, why should they? why don't you celebrate the FACT this new working shift pattern will save tens of thousands of lives on weekends, maybe your friends and family, maybe yours?

[Kizzy]

I don't celebrate it personally as I think junior DRs are over worked as it is and this will simply make a bad situation worse, leading to more deaths as a result of exhausted staff.

[the truth]

I don't celebrate it personally as I think junior DRs are over worked as it is and this will simply make a bad situation worse, leading to more deaths as a result of exhausted staff.

can you understand simple maths, these doctors are now working LESS hours....because far far more of them work weekends now and the workload is spread. previously too few doctors would accept overtime for money and work too many hours and the majority would work no weekends. this spreads the workloads. junior doctors now work LESS.

[the truth]

The facts on doctors' pay

Basic salary for junior doctors starts at about £23,000 but increases in the second year to about £28,000 (Pay for doctors - NHS Careers). For a doctor in specialist training, the basic salary is between £30,000 and £47,000.

Junior doctors get more for working extra and anti-social hours (currently classified as outside 07:00 to 19:00 Monday to Friday) on top of the basic salary, which boosts their income.




According to figures from the NHS Employers Organisation, the average total salary for a doctor in training is around £37,000.

The new contract changes anti-social hours to outside 07:00 to 22:00 Monday to Saturday, making Saturday between 07:00 and 22:00 part of a junior doctor's normal working week.

The change to Saturday working has angered doctors, who say it will reduce overtime pay and cut salaries. The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, has indicated he may be prepared to reconsider his plan to reclassify working on Saturdays.

The Department of Health thinks the new contract is a better deal. It says it will increase the basic salary for doctors and improve training so that junior doctors will not get paid less on average overall.

[Kizzy]

can you understand simple maths, these doctors are now working LESS hours....because far far more of them work weekends now and the workload is spread. previously too few doctors would accept overtime for money and work too many hours and the majority would work no weekends. this spreads the workloads. junior doctors now work LESS.

Please don't patronise me...
This makes no sense, they do work weekends already, it's simply the expansion of what is considered normal working hrs that is in question.

[the truth]

Please don't patronise me...
This makes no sense, they do work weekends already, it's simply the expansion of what is considered normal working hrs that is in question.

You are wrong. a minority work weekends only, the majority do not. do tens of thousands of people die? why aren't you talking about those tens of thousands of dead innocent people? why didn't the junior doctors ever march for them eh?

[AProducer'sWetDream]

You are wrong. a minority work weekends only, the majority do not. do tens of thousands of people die? why aren't you talking about those tens of thousands of dead innocent people? why didn't the junior doctors ever march for them eh?

Do you actually have any proof that the majority of doctors don't work weekends? Because I don't know about you, but I've never been in a hospital on a Sunday and not received anything less than excellent treatment. The same goes for everyone I know. The NHS is already a 24/7 service, and one of the best health services in the world. But if Jeremy Hunt continues to increase the workload, and refuse to allow doctors to earn more money for this extra work, without employing more junior doctors, then the NHS will not be able to function as it does for much longer.

[DemolitionRed]

I take it you have no value for the tens of thousands of people who die on weekends because not enough doctors will work and those that do want double pay over time

as for your accusations I don't care about public sector workers, what a damned lie. that wage you quote above is a good wage for trainees. they will be on 6 figures after than for the rest of their career and many do private as well. so you can put your violin down. The public sector workers who I do have sympathy for are not doctors but firemen and some in the social services. but of course you label everyone a bigot if they don't agree with your tory hatred 24 hours a day

Wow, what an over the top rhetoric!

Wasn't it you that said, "take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector" ? those words sound like the sort of thing a died in the wool privatization campaigner would say and the sort of utterance that's bound to get a response. Sorry if that hurts your ego mate but I think statements like that should be questioned.

A lie? I made a suggestion based on the things you've been saying but because I added a question mark, its not a statement is it?.

The reason people are dying is because we don't have enough GP's working in A&E. There are plenty of junior doctors but they may as well have their hands tied behind their backs. Last year alone we employed three thousand oversees doctors to try and bridge the GP gap but its still not enough because they are leaving quicker than arriving.

As I've already said, junior doctors often work a 65 hour week. Its not unusual for a junior doctor to work an 80 hour week because they stay on after their shifts, not because they want to but because they often need to and are even expected to by their seniors. They are not rewarded for those voluntary extra hours, nor do they expect reward.

A junior doctor isn't just someone fresh out of medical school, doing their foundation year. If you join medical school at 18 you can expect to be 27-28 before you lose your junior title.

[Kizzy]

what a lot of nonsense this thread is all this self pity for public sector workers
doctors get a higher basic wage than the prime minister, chief executives get 3 times the prime ministers wage ....even the so called lower paid get quality public sector pensions, infinitely better than most business owners get,,,,,,,,,,,,but lets ignore that in cowardly fashion and all agree with the poor me public sector agenda...don't like it? take some risks that make you accountable and join the private sector

Sorry what?.....
You argue that people are dying due to lack of adequate care and yet you advocate that nobody without access to private care should receive treatment then basically.
Do you realise how many hundreds of thousands would die then?

[arista]

This is a 2015 thread
But it is the same problem
Doctors now in 2022 talking of Strikes.

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[arista]

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