A Transgender Woman Found Dead In Prison

[Denver]

A transgender woman who told her friends she would kill herself if she was sent to a male prison has been found dead in jail.

Vicky Thompson, 21, was being held at Armley, Leeds, where she was pronounced dead on Friday.

Friends of Ms Thompson, who was born male but had identified as female since her mid-teens, said she had asked to be sent to a female prison.

An investigation into her death has been launched, the Prison Service said.

Ms Thompson, from Keighley, West Yorkshire, was handed a 12-month jail term in August which was suspended for 24 months.

The BBC understands she later breached the terms of the sentence, and was remanded in custody at Bradford Crown Court.

Her solicitor, Mohammed Hussain, said he had advised the judge she was "essentially a woman" and asked for her to be sent to New Hall women's prison, near Wakefield.

He said he also asked for any sentence to be reduced if it was decided Ms Thompson would be sent to an all-male prison.

Mr Hussain described Ms Thompson, who had not undergone gender reassignment surgery, as a vulnerable transgender person.

The issue of sentencing transgender prisoners was raised last month, after Tara Hudson was initially sent to an all-male prison.

She was later*transferred to a female jail*after a campaign calling for her to be moved.

Alex Kaye, from SafeT, which represents transgender people, said he hoped Ms Thompson's death would bring about a change in the law.

"Any woman would not be happy to be in a male prison regardless of any gender identity history," he said.

Transgender prison rules Prisoners should be placed according to their gender "as recognised by UK law" - usually as stated on their birth certificateIf a person has obtained a "gender recognition certificate", they will have a new birth certificate in their "acquired gender"Prisoners who obtain a gender recognition certificate while in prison "should in most cases be transferred to the estate of their acquired gender"But the rules also say some transgender people will be "sufficiently advanced in the gender reassignment process" that they could be placed "in the estate of their acquired gender, even if the law does not yet recognise they are of their acquired gender"Where issues arise, a "case conference" should be held to "review the prisoner's individual circumstances and make a recommendation"

Source:*The Care and Management of Transsexual Prisoners, Ministry of Justice website

Ms Thompson's boyfriend, Robert Steele, said he had spoken to her a day before and had booked a visit to the prison before her death.

"She didn't like it in there because people were saying things to her because she was dressing as a female," he said.

A Prison Service spokesperson said: "HMP Leeds prisoner Vicky Thompson was found unresponsive on the evening of Friday, 13 November.

"Staff and paramedics attempted resuscitation but she was pronounced dead at 20:48 GMT.

"As with all deaths in custody there will be an investigation by the independent Prisons and Probation Ombudsman".

West Yorkshire Police said Ms Thompson's death was not being treated as suspicious.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34869620

[Marsh.]

To be fair, that is a grey area.

Someone who has legally changed their sex/gender or had reassignment surgery it is relatively simple to treat them as their assigned/preferred gender.

Someone who simply chooses to wear clothes traditionally worn by another gender shouldn't warrant moving to a different prison. Opens the floodgates for anybody to say "I'm not legally this nor made any actual changes but I would like...." It's a farce tbh.

[Liam-]

To be fair, that is a grey area.

Someone who has legally changed their sex/gender or had reassignment surgery it is relatively simple to treat them as their assigned/preferred gender.

Someone who simply chooses to wear clothes traditionally worn by another gender shouldn't warrant moving to a different prison. Opens the floodgates for anybody to say "I'm not legally this nor made any actual changes but I would like...." It's a farce tbh.

.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, I sound a little heartless there. You know, heartbreaking for the person who this happened to and tragic but, yeah.

[Samm]

RIP :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

what was she in for?

[Locke.]

what was she in for?

Something that would be mentioned in the article the other 99.99% of the time. Very odd that it isn't here.

[Kizzy]

Really surprised that following the other transgender female transferred she wasn't.

[Marsh.]

Really surprised that following the other transgender female transferred she wasn't.

If we transferred people for their whims the system would be in a worse state than it is.

[JoshBB]

RIP.

Regardless of their crime, they should serve their time fairly in the correct gendered prison. It's utterly ridiculous that someone should be put in a male prison when they so clearly identify as a woman. Forget the legal nonsense, it's not like she kept silent and suddenly decided to kill herself in prison.. this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

Just wrong. I'm not going to go along with the whole "respect the law! she broke it, tough luck!!" mentality. Truly respecting the law would be to punish those who break it properly, by sentencing them correctly.

[Vanessa]

:(

[Denver]

RIP.

Regardless of their crime, they should serve their time fairly in the correct gendered prison. It's utterly ridiculous that someone should be put in a male prison when they so clearly identify as a woman. Forget the legal nonsense, it's not like she kept silent and suddenly decided to kill herself in prison.. this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

Just wrong. I'm not going to go along with the whole "respect the law! she broke it, tough luck!!" mentality. Truly respecting the law would be to punish those who break it properly, by sentencing them correctly.

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

[Marsh.]

this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

How do you know it's been brought up repeatedly?

According to the article she broke the rules of her sentence too, so if she wanted respect you'd think she'd do the same.

[JoshBB]

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.

How do you know it's been brought up repeatedly?

According to the article she broke the rules of her sentence too, so if she wanted respect you'd think she'd do the same.

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

[Kizzy]

If we transferred people for their whims the system would be in a worse state than it is.

Hang on, I didn't suggest that...however it shouldn't be one rule for one due to a little media attention and another for everyone else.

[Marsh.]

Hang on, I didn't suggest that...however it shouldn't be one rule for one due to a little media attention and another for everyone else.

I never said that's what you suggested.

It wasn't one rule for one, they were both sent to male prisons.

[Denver]

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.



Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

[Marsh.]

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

[Kizzy]

I never said that's what you suggested.

It wasn't one rule for one, they were both sent to male prisons.

When did I say people should be transferred on a whim then?...

I am aware they were both sent to male prisons too, and yet one was transferred... either they all are or none, it shouldn't be a lottery.

[Marsh.]

When did I say people should be transferred on a whim then?...

I am aware they were both sent to male prisons too, and yet one was transferred... either they all are or none, it shouldn't be a lottery.

Yes. And anyone who says they're a monkey should be transferred to a zoo too.

I never said you did. I'm calling it a whim.

[bots]

the prison service evaluates the suitability of a prison for each and every prisoner when they are first assigned. This applies to every single person and takes into account personal circumstances.

Why make a system less flexible than it already is, it doesn't make sense.

[JoshBB]

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

Forced sex reassignment? No. That would be a huge step backwards, and not only that but it would be a huge breach of human & transgender rights.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

People are discriminated in prison for a number of reasons. I agree with you. We need to prevent that - and one of the ways we can do this is to place prisoners in the correct prisons so they can at least feel comfortable with their own body & self-esteem, I don't doubt issues with prejudice & harassment will still arise but it would be much worse with her in a male prison.

[Marsh.]

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

[DemolitionRed]

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

Yes but she was a woman in her own eyes. 21 is still very young to have gone through surgery; that doesn't mean she wasn't on female hormones and attending all the counselling required before being considered for reassignment surgery.

We have a family friend who is pre-op transgender, female to male. he's had all the hormones and so he's lost the hips, grown a beard and now speaks with a deeper voice. He straps his still female breasts down and there is no way you would know that he was anything other than a bloke unless he took his clothes off. You couldn't and shouldn't send someone like him to a female prison if he committed a crime...he's a man!

This is just so, so wrong.
R.I.P. Vicky Thompson, you didn't deserve this.

[JoshBB]

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.

[Marsh.]

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

[JoshBB]

Well when it comes to a person stating outright they're one thing and their legal status is another it begs the question why they didn't care enough to have it changed? If they feel so strongly that when it comes to being placed into a situation where people are grouped by gender, why not help themselves by changing it and stop them being grouped with the wrong people?

Then if they decide they will allow cases like this through and transfer them you open a can of worms for other people (who won't all be genuine) contradicting their legal information and "saying" it's different without it having been changed.

A line needs to be drawn.

You then have the other problem of people who feel they identify as both or neither genders or an entirely different gender entirely (You know because male and female isn't enough?)? Are we opening a third prison for them? As Kizzy said earlier, is it one rule for one and another for the rest?

To your first post, I will simply refer to my previous points because I feel I've explained my view enough here. Their legal status is incorrect, and during the court they should have looked into correcting it before sending them to a male prison where they will face harassment and suicidal thoughts. It may also be worth noting that changing one's legal documents is a process that takes time, and how long this person has been 'out' as transgender is unknown from this article. I am making the assumption that they have not managed to have their legal status changed and there is no malicious intent here, along with the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle embodied within the law. We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

In regards to your 'can of worms' comment, I just simply disagree. People can claim a different legal gender if they really want, but what is the result? A cisgender woman gets to go into a male prison? So what? Stupid them for attempting to exploit the system, they will be removed from the prison with time and probably convicted of fraud in said scenario.

For those outside the two gender 'norms', male and female, it would depend on the person's wishes and how the court feels appropriate. It may be wise to look into designating a few prisons (only a few) to those who identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer, or anything else not legally recognised. I'm not sure on this, but I believe a person can specify their gender as 'other' in many countries, and that could work here I think. There would not need to be many of these, since assuming 5% of the population commits a crime.. we could make an assumption that 5% of the non-binary population also commit crimes. And given the very small minority that they are, it would be very little people, if any. LGBT+ do tend to have lower crime rates anyway.

[Marsh.]

To your first post, I will simply refer to my previous points because I feel I've explained my view enough here. Their legal status is incorrect, and during the court they should have looked into correcting it before sending them to a male prison where they will face harassment and suicidal thoughts. It may also be worth noting that changing one's legal documents is a process that takes time, and how long this person has been 'out' as transgender is unknown from this article. I am making the assumption that they have not managed to have their legal status changed and there is no malicious intent here, along with the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle embodied within the law. We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

Yes, it takes time. However, if they were in the process of this there would be a record and a very good case for them being moved to the prison of their choice even if the paperwork hadn't been finalised.

We cannot draw assumptions like this without proper evidence to suggest as such.

Which is the exact basis of my point. We can't simply take people at face value. Fantastic if we could. But the world doesn't work that way.


In regards to your 'can of worms' comment, I just simply disagree. People can claim a different legal gender if they really want, but what is the result? A cisgender woman gets to go into a male prison? So what? Stupid them for attempting to exploit the system, they will be removed from the prison with time and probably convicted of fraud in said scenario.

Well, you've actually just provided an example of a can of worms.

Never mind the prisoner themselves, what about the the entire wing full of women who don't want to share facilities with a man? They don't get their wish but this person claiming to be a woman in a man's body does?

Also, convicted of fraud on what grounds? If you've given people the right to say "My documents are wrong, I'm actually [insert whatever here]" and that's it then there are no grounds for fraud in this bizarre case. We're not talking about proving someone lied about a qualification on their CV, we're talking about someone's feelings and state of mind.


For those outside the two gender 'norms', male and female, it would depend on the person's wishes and how the court feels appropriate. It may be wise to look into designating a few prisons (only a few) to those who identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer, or anything else not legally recognised. I'm not sure on this, but I believe a person can specify their gender as 'other' in many countries, and that could work here I think. There would not need to be many of these, since assuming 5% of the population commits a crime.. we could make an assumption that 5% of the non-binary population also commit crimes. And given the very small minority that they are, it would be very little people, if any. LGBT+ do tend to have lower crime rates anyway.

And to this, I have the same reaction I had to them adding about 150 new genders to the list on Facebook....... :joker:

[lostalex]

As a gay male i would't feel safe in a heterosexual male prison, so why don't they also give gay men their own prison?

[Marsh.]

s a gay male i would't feel safe in a heater male prison, so why don't they also give gay men their own prison?

And here we have the can of worms. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

'A transgender woman has become the second trans prisoner in the space of a month to apparently take their own life while serving time in a male jail in England.

Joanne Latham, 38, from Nottingham, died in Woodhill prison in Milton Keynes on Friday. It is understood she had changed her name this summer, having previously been known as Edward Adam Brown or Edward Latham.

She was serving a number of life sentences for attempted murder and was housed on the close supervision centre (CSC), reserved for the most dangerous and vulnerable prisoners.

Her death comes just weeks after the death of 21-year-old Vicky Thompson, who was being held at Armley, a category B men’s prison in Leeds.'

:suspect:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/01/second-trans-prisoner-joanne-latham-apparently-takes-own-life-in-male-jail

[Livia]

According to the Guardian, 82 people committed suicide in prison in 2014. The person in the article posted above (by Kizzy) says she tried to kill another inmate while she was serving her original sentence, and then tried to kill another patient by stabing him in the neck when she was under psychiatric supervision in Rampton. Not sure if her gender issues were the crux of the matter....

[kirklancaster]

According to the Guardian, 82 people committed suicide in prison in 2014. The person in the article posted above (by Kizzy) says she tried to kill another inmate while she was serving her original sentence, and then tried to kill another patient by stabing him in the neck when she was under psychiatric supervision in Rampton. Not sure if her gender issues were the crux of the matter....

So a murderer/multi-attempted murderer tops him/herself. So what? One less burden on the tax payer. I hope this starts a new trend.

[Kizzy]

'CSCs are not designed to deal with prisoners with mental health issues, but in 2011 the manager of the unit in Woodhill said many prisoners did have psychiatric problems and that incidence of self harm was high.'

[Benjamin]

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

[Kizzy]

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

You lose your liberty not your humanity when you have mental health issues.... Wow, roll on the season of goodwill eh?

[Vicky.]

Sorry but I don't think its a good idea to let people who say they identify with another gender be in different prisons tbh. Obviously once ops and such are done and gender is 'legally' changed (as much as it can be), fair enough. For someone who just says they do? Kinda opening up a can of worms IMO.

[Livia]

To solve the problem they could, you know, not break the law in the first place. They give up their rights when they commit a crime.

Radical idea there, God.

I think the scale of people suffering mental problems outside prison is staggeringly high, so it's no surprise that many people who break the law suffer mental problems. The problem is that not enough non-prisoners get the help they need so it follows that the shortcomings would drip down into prison. Maybe if people with mental problems got better help there would be fewer of them in prison.

[kirklancaster]

How many social houses or new hospital beds and equipment could have been provided by all those millions which have been spent on tending to PETER SUTCLIFFE's MENTAL HEALTH problems in Broadmoor over the psast 30 odd years?

Which sane minded person gives a rat's ass whether bastard Sutcliffe and others like him howl at the moon every night or headbutt the cell walls every day of his 'life sentence'? - I ******* don't.

[Kizzy]

Radical idea there, God.

I think the scale of people suffering mental problems outside prison is staggeringly high, so it's no surprise that many people who break the law suffer mental problems. The problem is that not enough non-prisoners get the help they need so it follows that the shortcomings would drip down into prison. Maybe if people with mental problems got better help there would be fewer of them in prison.

How do we know they had no mental health issues outside prior to him breaking the law, and it was the mental health issues that led to the law break?
As you say he may just be a victim of the system, as stated in the article the facility is not compatible for those with complex mental health issues.

[Livia]

How do we know they had no mental health issues outside prior to him breaking the law, and it was the mental health issues that led to the law break?
As you say he may just be a victim of the system, as stated in the article the facility is not compatible for those with complex mental health issues.

I don't know that. Looking at the evidence so far it would seem to me that there is every possibility that he was failed before he became a prisoner, by the lack of mental health support outside jail. There isn't nearly enough support for people suffering mental health issues, we all know that.

My point is that the person concerned was suffering a range of mental health issues so I strongly suspect that gender issues were only a part of what drove this person to suicide.