Lord's Prayer cinema ad thankfully banned

[Kizzy]

My 'MONOLOGUES' are written with far more clarity, and with a far greater command of the English Language, and with a far greater knowledge of the subject matter, and with far greater fairness and objectivity than any skewed far left confused propaganda written by you.

YOU posed a question - ridiculous as it was - now you are being personally insulting and ignorant because the responses expose the flaws in your views.

Again, you stick to your - glaringly wrong - contentions no matter how many times they are SHOWN to be wrong, but that is par for the course with you.

Now I will put you on permanent ignore because you do not seek debate, you seek a platform where all other views are none forthcoming because by guile and stealth and deviousness, you have frightened away all other posters who do not agree with your ridiculous views lest they be infracted and banned.

YOU get personal AND offensive and falsely accuse, but then how are us lesser Tibb members to answer your continual rubbish accusations and defend ourselves and our viewpoint if we are to be continually blamed and infracted for doing so?

'With all the social inequality,suffering and need both in the UK and worldwide how is this spend justified?'


You respond here with a query relating to a political party, I suggested I don't feel the two are comparable, therefore we disagree and have reached an impasse.

[Cherie]

I think the premise of the advert was to focus on some spirituality in the run up to Christmas and to counteract the mass commercialism whilst also attracting some younger people back to the Church, some might say money well spent if it were to boost interest or some might say money wasted.

[kirklancaster]

I think the premise of the advert was to focus on some spirituality in the run up to Christmas and to counteract the mass commercialism whilst also attracting some younger people back to the Church, some might say money well spent if it were to boost interest or some might say money wasted.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: I think you sum it up perfectly and fairly Cherie, really.

[Kizzy]

If they got the words right it might be a start...

'As we forgive those who trespass against us' isn't it?

If you need an advert to inject a little humanity in your soul you're spiritual toast, imo.

[DemolitionRed]

UK among most sceptical in world about religion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10771044/UK-among-most-sceptical-in-world-about-religion.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

UK among most sceptical in world about religion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10771044/UK-among-most-sceptical-in-world-about-religion.html

:clap1:

[Mitchell]

I take it that you have not read all the preceding posts Mitchell?

No, I didn't have enough patience last night to read 10 pages of a religious thread, I just think a cinema should be a place where there isn't this sort of adverts, if I go to a cinema I want to sit and watch a film and be disconnected from the real world, I know there's still adverts, but very generic adverts.

My atheism has been a struggle if I'm honest, I was more scared of saying I was an atheist than that I was gay (and I came out in year 11 of secondary school...)
I've had judgemental comments from family and friends who haven't made it easy at all, so if I'm at a cinema I'd rather not be reminded of religion, same with politics and alcohol (the chances of me being in a cinema to see a film with a rating that isn't U or PG is very slim)

Yes the adverts been banned, a cinema isn't the time or the place for adverts of that nature.

[kirklancaster]

No, I didn't have enough patience last night to read 10 pages of a religious thread, I just think a cinema should be a place where there isn't this sort of adverts, if I go to a cinema I want to sit and watch a film and be disconnected from the real world, I know there's still adverts, but very generic adverts.

My atheism has been a struggle if I'm honest, I was more scared of saying I was an atheist than that I was gay (and I came out in year 11 of secondary school...)
I've had judgemental comments from family and friends who haven't made it easy at all, so if I'm at a cinema I'd rather not be reminded of religion, same with politics and alcohol (the chances of me being in a cinema to see a film with a rating that isn't U or PG is very slim)

Yes the adverts been banned, a cinema isn't the time or the place for adverts of that nature.

Fair enough Mitchell. I wasn't denying your right to your opinion mate just asking the question based specifically on your comment "shouldn't the Church of England use their funds for something more worthwhile than trying to hire out ad space during Star Wars?" given my post and Kizzy's.

[Kazanne]

Personally I think it's petty and all a bit over the top,haven't we got better things to whinge over?I cant help but wonder though did anyone on here get married in church,have their kids christened and even attended a church funeral ? or did you walk out because you don't believe? serious question.

[Ammi]

Personally I think it's petty and all a bit over the top,haven't we got better things to whinge over?I cant help but wonder though did anyone on here get married in church,have their kids christened and even attended a church funeral ? or did you walk out because you don't believe? serious question.

..thing is though Kaz, it's just a business decision for the cinemas..they can't really risk offending an audience that they're trying to encourage...especially as so much can be streamed etc on the internet now and the cinema is so expensive...

[arista]

Personally I think it's petty and all a bit over the top,haven't we got better things to whinge over?I cant help but wonder though did anyone on here get married in church,have their kids christened and even attended a church funeral ? or did you walk out because you don't believe? serious question.


I have Hated
Church Folk
because they follow a Fable



I deal in Fecking Facts


Feel The Force

[arista]

UK among most sceptical in world about religion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10771044/UK-among-most-sceptical-in-world-about-religion.html



Spiffing

[Ammi]

I have Hated
Church Folk
because they follow a Fable



I deal in Fecking Facts


Feel The Force

..well you're just very silly and probably losing out on some great people, for hating people because of their beliefs or because they go to church, rather than, judging them as people...for who they are...

[Niamh.]

Personally I think it's petty and all a bit over the top,haven't we got better things to whinge over?I cant help but wonder though did anyone on here get married in church,have their kids christened and even attended a church funeral ? or did you walk out because you don't believe? serious question.

Well, now you've brought that up, that's kind of a swore subject here. Did you know that 96% of "state" run schools here are Religious? (mainly Catholic) and eventhough they are state run and mine and everyone elses taxes pay for them, because they have a Catholic ethos they're allowed to put students trying to enroll who aren't baptised at the bottom of the list. therefore you have alot of parents feeling like they have little choice but to baptise their kids just to ensure they get a place in school in their own area

[Kazanne]

..thing is though Kaz, it's just a business decision for the cinemas..they can't really risk offending an audience that they're trying to encourage...especially as so much can be streamed etc on the internet now and the cinema is so expensive...

I understand that Ammi ,it just seems that anything traditional to the UK is always 'wrong' in some peoples eyes, like the hanging out of our flags, Christmas ,not being called Christmas ,why do we bend over backwards to always be making sure people aren't offended,I get some people don't believe,that is why I asked the question about ,getting married /funerals and christenings etc.Why would people get offended over something they don't believe in anyway:shrug: Go to the bog,the ad will be over by the time you get back. I actually find it hard to believe anyone is actually offended it just seems like another excuse for the PC brigade to blow their trumpets,and a blinking row they make too:hehe::laugh:

[arista]

..well you're just very silly and probably losing out on some great people, for hating people because of their beliefs or because they go to church, rather than, judging them as people...for who they are...



You are being Silly


As less are now Church Folk
so I miss nothing

[Tom4784]

Personally I think it's petty and all a bit over the top,haven't we got better things to whinge over?I cant help but wonder though did anyone on here get married in church,have their kids christened and even attended a church funeral ? or did you walk out because you don't believe? serious question.

Like I said before, it's hollow gestures. People get married in church because it's part of the image of an ideal wedding. Most people get married in a church because of the venue, not because of their religious persuasion. Christening and Church funerals are just part of British tradition. I was christened yet my family has never gone to church on a Sunday and aren't religious in the slightest and it's the same for most people I know.

[Kazanne]

Well, now you've brought that up, that's kind of a swore subject here. Did you know that 96% of "state" run schools here are Religious? (mainly Catholic) and eventhough they are state run and mine and everyone elses taxes pay for them, because they have a Catholic ethos they're allowed to put students trying to enroll who aren't baptised at the bottom of the list. therefore you have alot of parents feeling like they have little choice but to baptise their kids just to ensure they get a place in school in their own area

I was going to post to you about how it is there Niamh , as I know they are quite religious over there , I think it's wrong to HAVE to have your child baptised just to get a school place , no one should be forced to do that if they don't believe.

[kirklancaster]

Well, now you've brought that up, that's kind of a swore subject here. Did you know that 96% of "state" run schools here are Religious? (mainly Catholic) and eventhough they are state run and mine and everyone elses taxes pay for them, because they have a Catholic ethos they're allowed to put students trying to enroll who aren't baptised at the bottom of the list. therefore you have alot of parents feeling like they have little choice but to baptise their kids just to ensure they get a place in school in their own area

I don't think anyone can argue against you on this Niamh - honestly. The institutional Church - especially the Roman Catholic have been responsible for some of the biggest iinjustices throughout the centuries.

NO child should ever be 'graded' on ANYTHING except their ability and perhaps inclination to learn.

This is something I did not know and it is disgusting.

[Johnnyuk123]

This is an interesting read about the 25th of December...
https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.com/tag/gods-born-on-december-25/

[Ammi]

..I guess that my thoughts are..(I actually don't care either way in terms of actually having to view the ad myself at the cinema..)...that it's a logical decision to ban it from cinemas ..and anything else that advertises personal religious or political beliefs, because as happened with the Scottish Independence referendum, there was offense taken../with that as well...the yes and no, were both balanced, which obviously had to be done because they couldn't just advertise one or the other...so with this and to make it fair, other religions would also have to be given the same opportunity and especially now, when it's such a difficult time for the Muslim community with much fear provoking many prejudices and we're very much a multi cultural country..so then would it be all religious adverts..?..and not the time or place when enjoying a family movie and having paid quite a bit of money to do so...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Has anyone seen just how bad the ad is?

Its a blessing its been banned as it is laughable

[Kazanne]

This is an interesting read about the 25th of December...
https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.com/tag/gods-born-on-december-25/

Just words like the Bible Johnny,we chose what we believe,there is no proof either way.

[kirklancaster]

Just words like the Bible Johnny,we chose what we believe,there is no proof either way.

Yeaah Kaz - absolutely right.

[Johnnyuk123]

Just words like the Bible Johnny,we chose what we believe,there is no proof either way.

Kaz what this guy is writing about is based on historical evidence from centuries of research that pre date christianity. All of these Gods were born on the 25th of December, many from a virgin birth with lots of other similar traits to what christianity is today. More importantly they all were here long before christianity.
TBH If i had written it then you make a fair point Kaz.
But i didn't write it. Historians did :wavey:

[Kazanne]

Kaz what this guy is writing about is based on historical evidence from centuries of research that pre date christianity. All of these Gods were born on the 25th of December, many from a virgin birth with lots of other similar traits to what christianity is today. More importantly they all were here long before christianity.
TBH If i had written it then you make a fair point Kaz.
But i didn't write it. Historians did :wavey:

It's still doesn't make it fact Johnny, people have their own beliefs (or not) nothing will change that, who's to say those historians didn't fabricate and add bits here and there,lol

[Johnnyuk123]

It's still doesn't make it fact Johnny, people have their own beliefs (or not) nothing will change that, who's to say those historians didn't fabricate and add bits here and there,lol

His post is based on historical facts Kaz. He simply gathered those facts and reposted them onto his own website. They are facts regardless of anyone choosing to believe in them or not, they are still historical facts.:wavey:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Mummy i saw an advert saying praying works. If we pray for granny will her cancer go away?

No darling

Well what is it for?

Er

Well


Go ask you dad

[Kazanne]

Mummy i saw an advert saying praying works. If we pray for granny will her cancer go away?

No darling

Well what is it for?

Er

Well


Go ask you dad

:laugh: Maybe praying doesn't work for heathens LT.:hehe:

[Kazanne]

His post is based on historical facts Kaz. He simply gathered those facts and reposted them onto his own website. They are facts regardless of anyone choosing to believe in them or not, they are still historical facts.:wavey:

Different strokes for different folks I guess Johnny,I'm gonna buy LT an Easter egg and see if he eats it:hehe::wavey:

[Johnnyuk123]

Different strokes for different folks I guess Johnny,I'm gonna buy LT an Easter egg and see if he eats it:hehe::wavey:

See if you can find one shaped like a cross like this for LT. :hehe:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ynvsTf-2L._SY300_.jpg

[Kazanne]

See if you can find one shaped like a cross like this for LT. :hehe:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ynvsTf-2L._SY300_.jpg

:laugh:nice one,but I'm mortally offended

[kirklancaster]

It's still doesn't make it fact Johnny, people have their own beliefs (or not) nothing will change that, who's to say those historians didn't fabricate and add bits here and there,lol

I wrote several long posts on this very subject a while back Kaz but I cannot be arsed looking for it TBH.

[kirklancaster]

Mummy i saw an advert saying praying works. If we pray for granny will her cancer go away?

No darling

Well what is it for?

Er

Well


Go ask you dad

:laugh: I know one like that:

"Dad, where are the Alps"?

"Ask yer mam - she puts everything away".

:cheer2: :laugh: :joker:

[Kazanne]

I wrote several long posts on this very subject a while back Kaz but I cannot be arsed looking for it TBH.

It IS a long thread , but a good one ,I've enjoyed it,I just hope LT doesn't shoot the Easter Bunny:nono:

[DemolitionRed]

I was listening to an interview on the radio at work this afternoon and although I don't consider myself a Christian, I found myself agreeing with the person who was pro the advert.

For those who need to keep stating that religion isn't real, that its just a fable, you need to understand that Christianity is a very real thing for those who practice this faith. To try and convince them otherwise is disrespectful.

We can argue that Christmas is a Pagan festival but that's by the by. If you are Pagan and Christmas day is one of your Pagan festivals that's great. If you are a Christian and Christmas day is one of your Christian festivals, that's great too and if you're an atheist, agnostic, or other religion that just wants to join in the festivities with no thought about what the day represents, then nobody is going to knock you for it.

As for the advert, the more I think about it the more I believe it should be allowed and even praised. Christmas has been hijacked. If everyone else can advertise to the consumer to buy, buy, buy for Christmas, why on earth would we object to the Christian church, the very thing Christmas was born from, not be able to advertise ?

[Johnnyuk123]

It IS a long thread , but a good one ,I've enjoyed it,I just hope LT doesn't shoot the Easter Bunny:nono:

Agreed! :wavey:
http://s16.postimg.org/hlaeo8xlh/gerard_butler.gif (http://postimage.org/)
image hosting over 10mb (http://postimage.org/)

[Kazanne]

I was listening to an interview on the radio at work this afternoon and although I don't consider myself a Christian, I found myself agreeing with the person who was pro the advert.

For those who need to keep stating that religion isn't real, that its just a fable, you need to understand that Christianity is a very real thing for those who practice this faith. To try and convince them otherwise is disrespectful.

We can argue that Christmas is a Pagan festival but that's by the by. If you are Pagan and Christmas day is one of your Pagan festivals that's great. If you are a Christian and Christmas day is one of your Christian festivals, that's great too and if you're an atheist, agnostic, or other religion that just wants to join in the festivities with no thought about what the day represents, then nobody is going to knock you for it.

As for the advert, the more I think about it the more I believe it should be allowed and even praised. Christmas has been hijacked. If everyone else can advertise to the consumer to buy, buy, buy for Christmas, why on earth would we object to the Christian church, the very thing Christmas was born from, not be able to advertise ?

:clap1::clap1::worship:

[kirklancaster]

I was listening to an interview on the radio at work this afternoon and although I don't consider myself a Christian, I found myself agreeing with the person who was pro the advert.

For those who need to keep stating that religion isn't real, that its just a fable, you need to understand that Christianity is a very real thing for those who practice this faith. To try and convince them otherwise is disrespectful.

We can argue that Christmas is a Pagan festival but that's by the by. If you are Pagan and Christmas day is one of your Pagan festivals that's great. If you are a Christian and Christmas day is one of your Christian festivals, that's great too and if you're an atheist, agnostic, or other religion that just wants to join in the festivities with no thought about what the day represents, then nobody is going to knock you for it.

As for the advert, the more I think about it the more I believe it should be allowed and even praised. Christmas has been hijacked. If everyone else can advertise to the consumer to buy, buy, buy for Christmas, why on earth would we object to the Christian church, the very thing Christmas was born from, not be able to advertise ?

:worship: What a fantastically argued post.

[Kazanne]

Agreed! :wavey:
http://s16.postimg.org/hlaeo8xlh/gerard_butler.gif (http://postimage.org/)
image hosting over 10mb (http://postimage.org/)

:laugh::laugh: Love that Johnny,I'm nicking it:cheer2:

[Johnnyuk123]

:laugh::laugh: Love that Johnny,I'm nicking it:cheer2:

I made it for you. Thought you might like it. :wavey::cheer2:

[Vicky.]

OK first time I heard the news report on this..can't believe the reason given is actually 'incase it offends non-Christians'?!

I always thought bollocks like that was fake

[Johnnyuk123]

I was listening to an interview on the radio at work this afternoon and although I don't consider myself a Christian, I found myself agreeing with the person who was pro the advert.

For those who need to keep stating that religion isn't real, that its just a fable, you need to understand that Christianity is a very real thing for those who practice this faith. To try and convince them otherwise is disrespectful.

We can argue that Christmas is a Pagan festival but that's by the by. If you are Pagan and Christmas day is one of your Pagan festivals that's great. If you are a Christian and Christmas day is one of your Christian festivals, that's great too and if you're an atheist, agnostic, or other religion that just wants to join in the festivities with no thought about what the day represents, then nobody is going to knock you for it.

As for the advert, the more I think about it the more I believe it should be allowed and even praised. Christmas has been hijacked. If everyone else can advertise to the consumer to buy, buy, buy for Christmas, why on earth would we object to the Christian church, the very thing Christmas was born from, not be able to advertise ?

This is not true and certainly not a fact. Christianity did not celebrate Christmas for centuries, in fact they were totally against it for centuries. The date Jesus was born has still not been indentified. The nearest date they have to this birth date is september or october. Why am i saying this...Sheperds in that region always kept their cattle indoors during the winter months. There is a passage in the bible that mentions cattle out door whilst talking about the birth of Jesus. Many people agree (none believers and believers) that his birth, if he did exist, would fall months before december and NOT on the exact same day as dozens of other gods before him. So Christmas was NOT born from Christianity. The rest of your post is interesting, i agree with everyone just enjoying the holiday for what it is, a holiday to spend time with your family and loved ones.:wavey:

[Cherie]

I was listening to an interview on the radio at work this afternoon and although I don't consider myself a Christian, I found myself agreeing with the person who was pro the advert.

For those who need to keep stating that religion isn't real, that its just a fable, you need to understand that Christianity is a very real thing for those who practice this faith. To try and convince them otherwise is disrespectful.

We can argue that Christmas is a Pagan festival but that's by the by. If you are Pagan and Christmas day is one of your Pagan festivals that's great. If you are a Christian and Christmas day is one of your Christian festivals, that's great too and if you're an atheist, agnostic, or other religion that just wants to join in the festivities with no thought about what the day represents, then nobody is going to knock you for it.

As for the advert, the more I think about it the more I believe it should be allowed and even praised. Christmas has been hijacked. If everyone else can advertise to the consumer to buy, buy, buy for Christmas, why on earth would we object to the Christian church, the very thing Christmas was born from, not be able to advertise ?


I heard that argument as well and it's very valid

[Cherie]

OK first time I heard the news report on this..can't believe the reason given is actually 'incase it offends non-Christians'?!

I always thought bollocks like that was fake

Tbf it seems the non believers are making more of a fuss than any one of faith :umm2:

[Vicky.]

Tbf it seems the non believers are making more of a fuss than any one of faith :umm2:

I consider myself an athiest. I just find the whole thing stupid. Don't see why its caused so much of a fuss, but also don't understand why its banned in the first place. And have NEVER heard the 'incase its offensive' argument actually being used..as I said I thought that was just britain first/bnp rubbish...like the england flags being banned and such

[Cherie]

I consider myself an athiest. I just find the whole thing stupid. Don't see why its caused so much of a fuss, but also don't understand why its banned in the first place. And have NEVER heard the 'incase its offensive' argument actually being used..as I said I thought that was just britain first/bnp rubbish...like the england flags being banned and such

On this thread people have said they would walk out if it were aired so offence is real :laugh:

[Vicky.]

On this thread people have said they would walk out if it were aired so offence is real :laugh:

Faux outrage..I doubt anyone would really walk out over this. Probably wouldn't even register what it was til it finished, then they could have a bit of a foam to themselves. Its just because a fuss has been made :p

[Kazanne]

I made it for you. Thought you might like it. :wavey::cheer2:

Thankyou Johnny :cheer2:

[Johnnyuk123]

Thankyou Johnny :cheer2:

Your welcome.:wavey:

[Kazanne]

Faux outrage..I doubt anyone would really walk out over this. Probably wouldn't even register what it was til it finished, then they could have a bit of a foam to themselves. Its just because a fuss has been made :p

:clap1::clap1:

[kirklancaster]

Tbf it seems the non believers are making more of a fuss than any one of faith :umm2:

Very true Cherie. They are. I wonder why? :laugh:

[Johnnyuk123]

Can we all just agree that the world is flat! :joker::joker::joker::hehe:
http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/TFES.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Can we all just agree that the world is flat! :joker::joker::joker::hehe:
http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/TFES.jpg

dont forget its also 5000 years old :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

does anyone in the thread think that praying works

if so can they explain how it works with a few examples

:think:

[Johnnyuk123]

dont forget its also 5000 years old :joker:

And 8.7 million animals climbed into a 500 foot long wooden boat. How they actually got there in the first instance is still a mystery. None died either as no kangaroo fossils have ever been found other than in it's native country.:wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

This is not true and certainly not a fact. Christianity did not celebrate Christmas for centuries, in fact they were totally against it for centuries. The date Jesus was born has still not been indentified. The nearest date they have to this birth date is september or october. Why am i saying this...Sheperds in that region always kept their cattle indoors during the winter months. There is a passage in the bible that mentions cattle out door whilst talking about the birth of Jesus. Many people agree (none believers and believers) that his birth, if he did exist, would fall months before december and NOT on the exact same day as dozens of other gods before him. So Christmas was NOT born from Christianity. The rest of your post is interesting, i agree with everyone just enjoying the holiday for what it is, a holiday to spend time with your family and loved ones.:wavey:

I'm pretty well up on where Christmas started. The New Testament has no birth date for Jesus and yes, the 25th December is officially the adopted birth date of Christ. I fully understand the reasons why this date was picked so you really don't need to educate me on this subject.

I accept that the Christians borrowed a date from Saturnalia but Christmas has been part of the Christian faith since the 4th century and that's a very long time. It wasn't banned by Christians, it was banned by the Roman Pagans but still quietly practised; enough in fact that we still have it now.

Christmas today doesn't represent the Christmas of old but what it morphed into was a day of peace and goodwill, at least for Christians....Why would any of us try to condemn that?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm pretty well up on where Christmas started. The New Testament has no birth date for Jesus and yes, the 25th December is officially the adopted birth date of Christ. I fully understand the reasons why this date was picked so you really don't need to educate me on this subject.

I accept that the Christians borrowed a date from Saturnalia but Christmas has been part of the Christian faith since the 4th century and that's a very long time. It wasn't banned by Christians, it was banned by the Roman Pagans but still quietly practised; enough in fact that we still have it now.

Christmas today doesn't represent the Christmas of old but what it morphed into was a day of peace and goodwill, at least for Christians....Why would any of us try to condemn that?

its a day of celebration as the winter is on the wane and the nights are getting lighter

it has far far more to do with out pagan roots than ever it will with christianity

[Kazanne]

does anyone in the thread think that praying works

if so can they explain how it works with a few examples

:think:

Yes and no , not here for ridicule,lol

[Johnnyuk123]

I'm pretty well up on where Christmas started. The New Testament has no birth date for Jesus and yes, the 25th December is officially the adopted birth date of Christ. I fully understand the reasons why this date was picked so you really don't need to educate me on this subject.

I accept that the Christians borrowed a date from Saturnalia but Christmas has been part of the Christian faith since the 4th century and that's a very long time. It wasn't banned by Christians, it was banned by the Roman Pagans but still quietly practised; enough in fact that we still have it now.

Christmas today doesn't represent the Christmas of old but what it morphed into was a day of peace and goodwill, at least for Christians....Why would any of us try to condemn that?

So we actually both agree that this person was not born on the 25th of december. Thanks. :thumbs:

[DemolitionRed]

its a day of celebration as the winter is on the wane and the nights are getting lighter

it has far far more to do with out pagan roots than ever it will with christianity

Was that an error?

[kirklancaster]

I'm pretty well up on where Christmas started. The New Testament has no birth date for Jesus and yes, the 25th December is officially the adopted birth date of Christ. I fully understand the reasons why this date was picked so you really don't need to educate me on this subject.

I accept that the Christians borrowed a date from Saturnalia but Christmas has been part of the Christian faith since the 4th century and that's a very long time. It wasn't banned by Christians, it was banned by the Roman Pagans but still quietly practised; enough in fact that we still have it now.

Christmas today doesn't represent the Christmas of old but what it morphed into was a day of peace and goodwill, at least for Christians....Why would any of us try to condemn that?

Red, I know that you and me have often got heated when arguing, but I DO respect you, your intellect, and your knowledge, so I want to give you some advice - once these 'Religious' threads descend into nothing more than a 'piss takers orgy' -- as they always do -- do not bother trying to communicate. It is futile. And no one knows better than I do.

You can destroy a fallacy with evidenced truth and it will not make one iota of difference.

Bow out love - this is no longer a 'Serious Debate' and the way it has descended into farce is not 'News'.

[DemolitionRed]

Red, I know that you and me have often got heated when arguing, but I DO respect you, your intellect, and your knowledge, so I want to give you some advice - once these 'Religious' threads descend into nothing more than a 'piss takers orgy' -- as they always do -- do not bother trying to communicate. It is futile. And no one knows better than I do.

You can destroy a fallacy with evidenced truth and it will not make one iota of difference.

Bow out love - this is no longer a 'Serious Debate' and the way it has descended into farce is not 'News'.

Thanks for that Kirk, though I have to say, because I'm not passionate about religion or none religion for that matter, this isn't the sort of discussion that frustrates me. It just baffles me and that's what keeps me here :)

[kirklancaster]

Thanks for that Kirk, though I have to say, because I'm not passionate about religion or none religion for that matter, this isn't the sort of discussion that frustrates me. It just baffles me and that's what keeps me here :)

:laugh: You'll certainly end up a lot more baffled Red - Believe me. :laugh:

LT is nuts and Johnny is worse. :laugh:

[Johnnyuk123]

Red, I know that you and me have often got heated when arguing, but I DO respect you, your intellect, and your knowledge, so I want to give you some advice - once these 'Religious' threads descend into nothing more than a 'piss takers orgy' -- as they always do -- do not bother trying to communicate. It is futile. And no one knows better than I do.

You can destroy a fallacy with evidenced truth and it will not make one iota of difference.

Bow out love - this is no longer a 'Serious Debate' and the way it has descended into farce is not 'News'.

I disagree Kirk, It is still a serious debate and with very different view points and all valid points from both sides that make it interesting. Talking on subjects like this is very good and helps people posting along with those just reading to come to their own decisions on matters like this which can only be a good thing. There are many things i could say in this thread that would simply offend people so i choose not too say those things. That is the last thing i would want to do to people on here or anywhere. BUT... When questions are raised eg: how do you fit 8.7million animals into a 500 foot wooden boat and people do not respond to it with an honest answer then that to me is wrong.
I love to learn and if i am wrong i simply accept it, no problem at all and i am wrong many many times.

Just think about this Kirk...

If the original poster removed the word (Christian) and replaced it with Muslim this thread would be a very different thread and closed asap.:wavey:

[Crimson Dynamo]

It descends into pisstake simply because there is no evidence

Noone provides a counter argument and all involved realise what a total ridiculous nonsense it all is

In 6 years iv never seen anyone remotely come up with anything

At best we get

"Oh dont bash religion"


I mean jesus fkg christ

[Johnnyuk123]

It descends into pisstake simply because there is no evidence

Noone provides a counter argument and all involved realise what a total ridiculous nonsense it all is

In 6 years iv never seen anyone remotely come up with anything

At best we get

"Oh dont bash religion"


I mean jesus fkg christ


Good point LT.:clap1:

[smudgie]

I would assume that if you have faith, then praying would give you comfort and perhaps hope. Even if that is all it does then it is worthwhile.

[Johnnyuk123]

It descends into pisstake simply because there is no evidence

Noone provides a counter argument and all involved realise what a total ridiculous nonsense it all is

In 6 years iv never seen anyone remotely come up with anything

At best we get

"Oh dont bash religion"


I mean jesus fkg christ

I am well aware of the pisstake i have recieved in here for my thoughts as an athiest. As a none christian being mocked by christians in a very subtle way i am fine with it.I get the joke. example... funny how those none believers seem to be kicking up more of a fuss than believers etc or words similar to that effect. I am fine with it. I'm a big boy and can take it.
Latest polls in America show that athiests v christians took a test on their knowledge of the bible. Guess who won?:joker:

[Ammi]

..with respect, the only thing that the thread may have descended to, if it's descended into anything at all is to being off topic to the OP and what is very much still the news story..at has nothing to do with Christmas, the origin of Christmas day or how people celebrate it as everyone does that in their own way and have their own meanings for that day...the news story is about an advert for the Lord's prayer and that being banned from a cinema and whether that's an appropriate or right thing to do, with something that is a personal belief...should any advert of that ilk be shown at a cinema at all/is it the time, is it the place etc...and if so, then why should one religion be shown and not another...and yes, I completely agree with Johnny..what would be the reaction from the public if this was an advert for the Islam faith ...

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would assume that if you have faith, then praying would give you comfort and perhaps hope. Even if that is all it does then it is worthwhile.

Why not just look on the bright side and avoid talking to yourself?

[Johnnyuk123]

I would assume that if you have faith, then praying would give you comfort and perhaps hope. Even if that is all it does then it is worthwhile.

I agree with that smudgie. If it gives you comfort that can only be a good thing.:wavey:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lying to yourself about life is not comfort

[Johnnyuk123]

..with respect, the only thing that the thread may have descended to, if it's descended into anything at all is to being off topic to the OP and what is very much still the news story..at has nothing to do with Christmas, the origin of Christmas day or how people celebrate it as everyone does that in their own way and have their own meanings for that day...the news story is about an advert for the Lord's prayer and that being banned from a cinema and whether that's an appropriate or right thing to do, with something that is a personal belief...should any advert of that ilk be shown at a cinema at all/is it the time, is it the place etc...and if so, then why should one religion be shown and not another...and yes, I completely agree with Johnny..what would be the reaction from the public if this was an advert for the Islam faith ...

Well said Ammi. If it was a muslim advert all hell would have defo kicked off.:wavey:

[smudgie]

Well said Ammi. If it was a muslim advert all hell would have defo kicked off.:wavey:

That is the reason all religious and political adverts have been banned.
Good policy really.

[Johnnyuk123]

That is the reason all religious and political adverts have been banned.
Good policy really.

It is the right thing to do tbh.:wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

..with respect, the only thing that the thread may have descended to, if it's descended into anything at all is to being off topic to the OP and what is very much still the news story..at has nothing to do with Christmas, the origin of Christmas day or how people celebrate it as everyone does that in their own way and have their own meanings for that day...the news story is about an advert for the Lord's prayer and that being banned from a cinema and whether that's an appropriate or right thing to do, with something that is a personal belief...should any advert of that ilk be shown at a cinema at all/is it the time, is it the place etc...and if so, then why should one religion be shown and not another...and yes, I completely agree with Johnny..what would be the reaction from the public if this was an advert for the Islam faith ...

From what I've read from the church, this advert was brought out deliberately close to Christmas.

The church has said, "It had seemed a good opportunity to launch the advert and a new website justpray.uk to promote prayer ahead of Christmas".

Sorry (actually I'm not) that this thread has deviated beyond the advert but topics tend to do that if they go on long enough.

As for Johnny's suggestion, bring it on. In my world, if one religion is allowed to publicise prayer, then every religion should be able to do the same and that includes Islam.

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't say this lightly at all...It was removed for very very GOOD reasons. The old posts on here of.. by the time you get up from your seat it will have finished etc. That is an insult to all faiths and none believers. It is wrong on so many levels to many many people be they of faith or none faith.

[Kizzy]

Why is is so controversial that they have taken the stance they want no political or religious material?
It's as much a rebuff to any other faith or party as the CofE, and they could advertise somewhere else.. As it's made the news it's gotten out there anyway so fair play.

[lostalex]

I don't see the problem. if a movie theater doesn't want to show a prayer, fine. just like it's fine if a church doesn't want to show a sexual, violent movie laced with curse words.

if you want to pray go to church, if you want to watch a movie go to the cinema. that's the great thing about a free country, there's something for everyone, and plenty of choices.

[Ammi]

..I guess that is just ways of looking at these things ...it's now being reported by some media that this advert was first hoped to be screened in July and in time for the summer family movie audience...obviously it didn't happen then, so now it's for the Christmas releases...so is that connected with Christmas itself and for positive reasons or because Star Wars specifically will attract many cinema goers, so increasing the 'audience size' of the advert...and of course, as is so often the way...the 'fight is getting dirty' with criticism and judgement by the church of movie content and other adverts screened and legal action against cinemas being threatened..

..as I think that I said before, the advert being shown wouldn't bother me at all because it's not the advert itself per se, but more that other religions and beliefs should also have the same opportunities and then it starts to get complicated with cinema goers possibly being deterred from going because of a potentially substantial quantity of 'personal beliefs' encroaching on what for them is pure entertainment ....the Archbishop of Canterbury apparently said...'This advert is about as offensive as a carol service or a church service on Christmas Day.' ...well that may be, but that would be something that someone would make a choice to either go to or switch on a TV to watch if screened...in a cinema, people are choosing to go and watch a movie and religion/politics etc should play no part of that, whether it offends or not ..is not the point really..it's the wrong time, it's the wrong place and not appropriate ..imo of course...

[Kazanne]

Well said Ammi. If it was a muslim advert all hell would have defo kicked off.:wavey:

Not from me it wouldn't,each to their own, but we are in Britain and deemed a Christian country,I think it's mainly to do with that,The Brits aren't allowed to promote anything British.

[Cherie]

..with respect, the only thing that the thread may have descended to, if it's descended into anything at all is to being off topic to the OP and what is very much still the news story..at has nothing to do with Christmas, the origin of Christmas day or how people celebrate it as everyone does that in their own way and have their own meanings for that day...the news story is about an advert for the Lord's prayer and that being banned from a cinema and whether that's an appropriate or right thing to do, with something that is a personal belief...should any advert of that ilk be shown at a cinema at all/is it the time, is it the place etc...and if so, then why should one religion be shown and not another...and yes, I completely agree with Johnny..what would be the reaction from the public if this was an advert for the Islam faith ...

Well said Ammi. If it was a muslim advert all hell would have defo kicked off.:wavey:



The timing of it indicates that the advert is linked to Christmas, an anecdote to the mass commercialism that it has become, and last time I checked we are not an Islamic Country and we don't have a national holiday for EID however if they wanted to run a 60 ad before film in the run up to EID I would have no problem with it and again I suspect it might be the same people making a fuss or not as Christianity seems to be the football at the moment.

[Johnnyuk123]

Not from me it wouldn't,each to their own, but we are in Britain and deemed a Christian country,I think it's mainly to do with that,The Brits aren't allowed to promote anything British.

I think the rest of Europe, Russia, the Americas, the Philippines, East Timor, Southern Africa, Central Africa, East Africa. All christian countries would have something to say about that Kaz.
Britain does not own Christianity. You could argue that fish n chips is a british thing and i would agree 100 % and be very angry if they stopped us eating fish n chips but not Christianity.This country does not own Christianity. :wavey:

[joeysteele]

..I guess that is just ways of looking at these things ...it's now being reported by some media that this advert was first hoped to be screened in July and in time for the summer family movie audience...obviously it didn't happen then, so now it's for the Christmas releases...so is that connected with Christmas itself and for positive reasons or because Star Wars specifically will attract many cinema goers, so increasing the 'audience size' of the advert...and of course, as is so often the way...the 'fight is getting dirty' with criticism and judgement by the church of movie content and other adverts screened and legal action against cinemas being threatened..

..as I think that I said before, the advert being shown wouldn't bother me at all because it's not the advert itself per se, but more that other religions and beliefs should also have the same opportunities and then it starts to get complicated with cinema goers possibly being deterred from going because of a potentially substantial quantity of 'personal beliefs' encroaching on what for them is pure entertainment ....the Archbishop of Canterbury apparently said...'This advert is about as offensive as a carol service or a church service on Christmas Day.' ...well that may be, but that would be something that someone would make a choice to either go to or switch on a TV to watch if screened...in a cinema, people are choosing to go and watch a movie and religion/politics etc should play no part of that, whether it offends or not ..is not the point really..it's the wrong time, it's the wrong place and not appropriate ..imo of course...

This for me.
Not a single word I could disagree with here at all, even if I was really looking to.

[Beso]

brainwashing kids with lies about gods is the number 1 problem we are facing in this lifetime

suicide bombers dont do it as a career move

I think you underestimate the kids.

[Beso]

You have to laugh at the sixty second commercial promoting christianity gets banned but the jedi promoting film is screened nation wide.

[kirklancaster]

The timing of it indicates that the advert is linked to Christmas, an anecdote to the mass commercialism that it has become, and last time I checked we are not an Islamic Country and we don't have a national holiday for EID however if they wanted to run a 60 ad before film in the run up to EID I would have no problem with it and again I suspect it might be the same people making a fuss or not as Christianity seems to be the football at the moment.

:worship: You have excelled yourself with this Cherie - Of course, your moderate logical, and common sense view will not be listened to.

I do not give a rat's ass whether this ad is shown or not - It is the 'real' motive for banning it which I have a problem with, and - as you say - if any ad promoting EID were to be screened I would not have any problem with it either. An ad promoting IS or extreme Islam - yes, I would object to, but I can discern the difference between Muslim and IS, just as I can discern the difference a benign advert for Christian thoughts at Christmas and one which has a secret agenda to 'brainwash' children.

For people who do not 'believe', some of the atheists on here have an unhealthy obsession with the most innocuous and trivial snippets on religion and react to the same with almost manic OTT rage. :laugh:

I certainly do not spend my precious time worrying or even thinking of Atheists - live and let live, and each to their own.

[kirklancaster]

I think you underestimate the kids.

:laugh: Too true Parmnion.

[kirklancaster]

You have to laugh at the sixty second commercial promoting christianity gets banned but the jedi promoting film is screened nation wide.

:laugh: And so true again.

[kirklancaster]

I think the rest of Europe, Russia, the Americas, the Philippines, East Timor, Southern Africa, Central Africa, East Africa. All christian countries would have something to say about that Kaz.
Britain does not own Christianity. You could argue that fish n chips is a british thing and i would agree 100 % and be very angry if they stopped us eating fish n chips but not Christianity.This country does not own Christianity. :wavey:

I think you have misread and misinterpreted Kaz's post Johnny. She is not claiming that Christianity is exclusive to the UK - just that it is by historical fact our 'State' religion, and that as a consequence, the celebration of 'Christmas one of our 'traditions'.

In the part of her post which you have emboldened, she is - quite correctly - pointing out that Christianity and Christmas are just yet more in a long list of 'British' traditions which are being 'forced' from us.

By whom? Well, that depends on your own degree of perception.

[bots]

You have to laugh at the sixty second commercial promoting christianity gets banned but the jedi promoting film is screened nation wide.

The circumstances are quite different. The star wars film is what people have made an active decision to pay for and view. They didn't pay to be force fed a prayer.

I am not calling for the ad to be banned, i just think its wrong to ram political or religious broadcasts down peoples throats when they don't make an active choice to watch it.

[Kazanne]

I think the rest of Europe, Russia, the Americas, the Philippines, East Timor, Southern Africa, Central Africa, East Africa. All christian countries would have something to say about that Kaz.
Britain does not own Christianity. You could argue that fish n chips is a british thing and i would agree 100 % and be very angry if they stopped us eating fish n chips but not Christianity.This country does not own Christianity. :wavey:

I didn't say we did Johnny but this is Britain,I don't live in those other countries, what they do is up to them,I am talking about here.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think you underestimate the kids.

if i did then there would be very few muslims in the UK

sadly that is not the case and lets face it, they are not being swayed by the evidence ..

they are being brainwashed by parents

[Beso]

The circumstances are quite different. The star wars film is what people have made an active decision to pay for and view. They didn't pay to be force fed a prayer.

I am not calling for the ad to be banned, i just think its wrong to ram political or religious broadcasts down peoples throats when they don't make an active choice to watch it.

Same could be said for all pre film adverts then, so why the uproar now?

[Kazanne]

The circumstances are quite different. The star wars film is what people have made an active decision to pay for and view. They didn't pay to be force fed a prayer.

I am not calling for the ad to be banned, i just think its wrong to ram political or religious broadcasts down peoples throats when they don't make an active choice to watch it.

How is it 'ramming' anything down peoples throats ? most people are usually getting themselves sorted ,on their mobiles and talking while the ads are on, and by the same token the same could be said for ALL the adverts. This is a mountain out of a molehill imo.

[kirklancaster]

if i did then there would be very few muslims in the UK

sadly that is not the case and lets face it, they are not being swayed by the evidence ..

they are being brainwashed by parents

But LT - what has any of this to do with Christianity? Or with the rights and wrongs of showing of a 60 second benign Christian advert in Cinemas?

[bots]

How is it 'ramming' anything down peoples throats ? most people are usually getting themselves sorted ,on their mobiles and talking while the ads are on, and by the same token the same could be said for ALL the adverts. This is a mountain out of a molehill imo.

the viewing public is very fickle. The cinemas in Scotland didn't decide to stop showing referendum adverts for no reason. They had the opportunity to earn advertising revenue, but turned it down because their bottom line would be affected more if they had shown it. The same is true of this prayer. Cinemas are already struggling, they don't need any further controversy to affect their profits.

[Kazanne]

the viewing public is very fickle. The cinemas in Scotland didn't decide to stop showing referendum adverts for no reason. They had the opportunity to earn advertising revenue, but turned it down because their bottom line would be affected more if they had shown it. The same is true of this prayer. Cinemas are already struggling, they don't need any further controversy to affect their profits.

Well yes,I suppose money always comes first.

[Kizzy]

Personally I do believe but don't follow a religion certainly not Anglicanism, I think the idea that the ad being banned is part of a master plan to subjugate British tradition is a reach.
We didn't see Scotland up in arms about the referendum ad being banned, it was taken in good faith that it was a corporate decision and not some anti Scottish message.

[Crimson Dynamo]

surely if they pray that it is shown it will be?

[kirklancaster]

This is an interesting read about the 25th of December...
https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.com/tag/gods-born-on-december-25/

This is an interesting read about the 25th of December...
https://thinkerfromiowa.wordpress.com/tag/gods-born-on-december-25/

And 'people of faith' are lambasted as naive and gullible.

First of all Johnny - Nowhere in the Judeo- Christian Bible does it claim that Christ was born on the 25th of December. That date was seized upon by the newly Christian Emperor Constantine to celebrate 'The Mass of Christ' (Christmas) because the Winter Solstice and the ancient pagan Roman midwinter festivals called 'Saturnalia' took place on this date, so it would help the previously pagan subjects of the Roman Empire to more easily 'acclimatise' to their new religion.

Secondly, this fact does make a nonsense of any claims that 'Christmas' is nothing to do with Jesus. There is a gulf of difference in claiming that Jesus was BORN on the 25th of December - which no Christian does - and in merely celebrating his MASS on that day for the ancient reasons given above.

If Christmas was nothing to do with Jesus (a ludicrous claim given the name 'Christ Mass') and ALL to do with pre-existing Pagan festivals which were originally held on that date (some erroneously by the way - more of which below) then WHY aren't all you atheists sending each other 'Merry 'Dies Natalis Solis Invicti' cards, exchanging 'Saturnalia Gifts' and wishing each other 'Happy Mithrasmas'?

Unfortunately for the author(s) of the linked article you provided Johnny, and those who 'believe' in its truths - Nowhere is there any historical corroboration that the totally mythical entity Mithra was born on the 25th of December either. There is only problematical and highly contested conjecture.

So it is nothing but 'Skeptic Fallacy' for anyone to claim that Christians hijacked the 25th of December as Christ's 'Birthday' because they were copying Mithraism - Christians do not claim that birthdate for Christ, they only celebrate his mass on it, and apart from the fact that Mithras is a total myth, there is no historical proof anywhere to corrobarate any claims that 'Mithras' was 'born' on that date either.

In addition; how can Christ be an invention copied from Mithras when the Roman cult of Mithras was not popularized until the 1st to 4th Century AD -- AFTER the death of Christ and over a thousand years or so AFTER the Old Testament prophecies of Christ's birth and the circumstances surrounding it?

And this is not the only fallacy about Mithra in your linked article and elsewhere Johnny:

MITHRA

“Mithras was born of a virgin” — According to historians, Mithras was born from a rock, and not even of a person at all, much less a 'virgin'.

“Mithras's 'Birth' was attended to by Shepherds” — This claim is based solely on the stone relief below which shows humans holding what do appear to be shepherd's crooks :

http://beginningandend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mithras-with-shepherds.jpg

Which not only nails the Mithras 'Virgin Birth' as a clear lie, but is also fascinating seeing as how Mithras was supposed to be 'born' BEFORE the creation of HUMANKIND.

“Mithra had 12 disciples.” — Solely based on another carving below which shows Mithras surrounded by 12 signs of the Zodiac:

http://beginningandend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mitrhas-with-stars.jpg

What kind of idiotic leap of faith does it take to turn 12 signs of the zodiac into 12 living breathing human disciples? To illustrate how desperate the anti-Christian lobby are, one researcher - Franz Cumont - even suggested that the zodiac signs in the relief were actually 'disciples' 'dressed up as zodiac signs'. :facepalm:

“Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected.” — More lies by anti-Christian bullshotters, because in Mithraism, Mithras never dies. After concluding his earthly mission he 'returns to the skies in a chariot', and in Mithraism there is no historical mention of crucifixion, burial or resurrection in any artwork or text.

So without death - How can there be resurrection Johnny?

“...there is “no death of Mithras” - Rihard L Gordon: 'Image and Value in the Graeco-Roman World: Studies in Mithraism and Religious Art'.

“We don’t know anything about the death of Mithras…We have a lot of monuments, but we have almost no textual evidence, because this was a secret religion. But I know of no references to a supposed death and resurrection.” - Dr. Edwin Yamauchi.

"Mithras as a real person did not exist" - Franz Cumont.

There is a lot more on Mithras which I look forward to debating with you Johnny, plus the rest of the fallacies in your linked article, and your other points concerning 'Noah's Ark' etc - but only in a serious civil manner, otherwise it is just futile.

For now, I must leave it here - I am supposed to be working hard on finishng a kitchen refit, which I HAVE managed to do the majority of DESPITE 'idling away' hours of my time on here. :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

surely if they pray that it is shown it will be?

Prayer DEFINITELY works for me, and I am certainly no church attending, Bible Thumping 'Plaster Saint'.

[Kazanne]

Prayer DEFINITELY works for me, and I am certainly no church attending, Bible Thumping 'Plaster Saint'.

Me too Kirk,I take it some of Tibb don't celebrate Easter either, shame really as those eggs and hot cross buns are scumptious:laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Prayer DEFINITELY works for me, and I am certainly no church attending, Bible Thumping 'Plaster Saint'.

well if you pray for things that will happen anyway or have a 50 50 chance then you will persuade yourself it worked just like lucky charms and mascots

of football players and lucky clothing etc

also naturally when it does not work you will not remember

[Crimson Dynamo]

Me too Kirk,I take it some of Tibb don't celebrate Easter either, shame really as those eggs and hot cross buns are scumptious:laugh:

no one will ceIebrate it

but they will eat eggs and hot cross buns because they are tasty and are in the shops (actually i saw some in sainsburys yesterday)

but no one will be thinking about jesus arriving on a donkey etc

[Niamh.]

Me too Kirk,I take it some of Tibb don't celebrate Easter either, shame really as those eggs and hot cross buns are scumptious:laugh:

By celebrate do you mean "buys eggs?" Is that what the good Lord recommends? :laugh: I would have thought celebrating Easter the Christian way would be going to Mass? :think:

[kirklancaster]

well if you pray for things that will happen anyway or have a 50 50 chance then you will persuade yourself it worked just like lucky charms and mascots

of football players and lucky clothing etc

also naturally when it does not work you will not remember

:laugh: Err - No. I am talking about praying for specific things which are delivered in the most weird of ways - time and again. AND I am aware that while this DOES happen to me, that there are a lot more deserving people than me whose prayers DO NOT get answered.

God works in mysterious ways.

[Niamh.]

:laugh: Err - No. I am talking about praying for specific things which are delivered in the most weird of ways - time and again. AND I am aware that while this DOES appen to me, that there are a lot more deserving people than me whose prayers DO NOT get answered.

God works in mysterious ways.

Carrier pigeon? :fan:

[kirklancaster]

By celebrate do you mean "buys eggs?" Is that what the good Lord recommends? :laugh: I would have thought celebrating Easter the Christian way would be going to Mass? :think:

:laugh: Yeah - Then scoffing those delicious Easter Eggs. :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

By celebrate do you mean "buys eggs?" Is that what the good Lord recommends? :laugh: I would have thought celebrating Easter the Christian way would be going to Mass? :think:

i am sure baby jesus liked chocolate:nono:

maybe the stone to his tomb was made of chocolate and that is why it was rolled away easily when his body was taken away


(only for it to be found empty the next day and the only rational explanation that could be found was.... he came back from the dead and floated up to the sky, natch)

:hehe:

[kirklancaster]

Carrier pigeon? :fan:

:nono: No not yet. :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh: Err - No. I am talking about praying for specific things which are delivered in the most weird of ways - time and again. AND I am aware that while this DOES appen to me, that there are a lot more deserving people than me whose prayers DO NOT get answered.

God works in mysterious ways.

yes but Kirk you think you get racing tips like that too

[kirklancaster]

no one will ceIebrate it

but they will eat eggs and hot cross buns because they are tasty and are in the shops (actually i saw some in sainsburys yesterday)

but no one will be thinking about jesus arriving on a donkey etc

If you can state this with so MUCH certainty, then you know what is in the hearts and minds of every human being on this planet, which makes me wonder if YOU are God and if all your anti Religion posts are just a test for the rest of us.

It is all becoming clear now LT. :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you can state this with so MUCH certainty, then you know what is in the hearts and minds of every human being on this planet, which makes me wonder if YOU are God and if all your anti Religion posts are just a test for the rest of us.

It is all becoming clear now LT. :laugh:

i work in mysterious ecumenical ways


:smug:

[kirklancaster]

yes but Kirk you think you get racing tips like that too

No LT - The paranormal and God are different. Yvette Fielding does not host 'Most Worshipped'. :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

No LT - The paranormal and God are different. Yvette Fielding does not host 'Most Worshipped'. :laugh:

no kirk they are both bollocks and thus the same

:hee:

Do you seriously think if paranormal things were real yvette and that scouse knob would be the main people in the UK doing a programme about it?


that in itself should tell you something...

[Kazanne]

By celebrate do you mean "buys eggs?" Is that what the good Lord recommends? :laugh: I would have thought celebrating Easter the Christian way would be going to Mass? :think:

Eggs are the beginning of life( Easter Sunday),hence Easter EGGS,hot cross buns are marked with a cross due to Good Friday, the good Lord doesn't 'recommend' these things it is the way some Christians celebrate the life and death of Christ,going to mass is another option,why do people get so annoyed with any question about them celebrating a Christian festival ? it's just a question, has Easter been stolen aswell ?

[Kazanne]

i am sure baby jesus liked chocolate:nono:

maybe the stone to his tomb was made of chocolate and that is why it was rolled away easily when his body was taken away


(only for it to be found empty the next day and the only rational explanation that could be found was.... he came back from the dead and floated up to the sky, natch)

:hehe:

Take the piss all you want LT,my shoulders are broad ,I can take it, :hehe:

[Niamh.]

Eggs are the beginning of life( Easter Sunday),hence Easter EGGS,hot cross buns are marked with a cross due to Good Friday, the good Lord doesn't 'recommend' these things it is the way some Christians celebrate the life and death of Christ,going to mass is another option,why do people get so annoyed with any question about them celebrating a Christian festival ? it's just a question, has Easter been stolen aswell ?

I'm not annoyed lol

But when you say "it's just a question" what question are you actually asking? I don't actually understand? Why do people buy Easter Eggs if they aren't Christian? Umm because they taste nice :shrug:

[Kazanne]

I'm not annoyed lol

But when you say "it's just a question" what question are you actually asking? I don't actually understand? Why do people buy Easter Eggs if they aren't Christian? Umm because they taste nice :shrug:

It tastes nice,hmm well why don't people buy a bar then,(it's better value)why an egg? It's plainly a Christian thing so why would none Christians want a part of it , BTW a few people seem annoyed that some people believe in God, it wasn't directed soley to you.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Take the piss all you want LT,my shoulders are broad ,I can take it, :hehe:

I hear Marks do plus sizes now


:hehe:

[Livia]

Eggs are the beginning of life( Easter Sunday),hence Easter EGGS,hot cross buns are marked with a cross due to Good Friday, the good Lord doesn't 'recommend' these things it is the way some Christians celebrate the life and death of Christ,going to mass is another option,why do people get so annoyed with any question about them celebrating a Christian festival ? it's just a question, has Easter been stolen aswell ?

As a matter of fact... yes. It celebrates Oestra, goddess of fertility, who's feast day is 21st March and who's symbols are a hare (the Easter bunny?) and an egg... because she's a fertility goddess. It's also where we get the word 'Oestrogen', for the female hormone.

All that said... Everyone knows Easter is about Jesus Christ and the festival of Easter ties in with the Jewish Passover which was a thing while people in Britain were still running round painting themselves with woad. And no one on this forum could put their hand on their heart and say they are a card-carrying Pagan, everyone knows it's a Christian festival and they still give eggs and take the day off. I am not a Christian or a Pagan and I give Easter eggs and take the day off but I do acknowledge that the festival is a Christian one.

I am completely at ease with seeing this advert in a cinema. As a non-Christian I don't find in in the least insulting and it shocks me that people have made so much fuss about it, especially seeing that many of those same people don't have a problem with Christmas adverts starting at the beginning of November, costing millions in a desperate attempt to get us to buy overpriced stuff we don't need. Christmas is a Christian holiday, whichever way anyone wants to bend it. And I've heard all the stuff about it being a family get-together and how it was nicked from the Pagans... but like I said, no one on here is a Pagan. Plenty of people here have no religion but still take the whole of Christmas off, sing carols, give presents... without for one moment acknowledging the simple truth that Jesus is the reason for the season.

[Niamh.]

It tastes nice,hmm well why don't people buy a bar then,(it's better value)why an egg? It's plainly a Christian thing so why would none Christians want a part of it , BTW a few people seem annoyed that some people believe in God, it wasn't directed soley to you.

Well, I'm not a massive Chocolate fan anyway but my kids are and the eggs look nicer and something a bit different

What about Halloween then hhmmm, do your kids dress up because you know that's an old Celtic Pagan festival...... :p It's alright though I get it, it's fun just like Christmas (without the religious palavar that goes with it)

[Crimson Dynamo]

As a matter of fact... yes. It celebrates Oestra, goddess of fertility, who's feast day is 21st March and who's symbols are a hare (the Easter bunny?) and an egg... because she's a fertility goddess. It's also where we get the word 'Oestrogen', for the female hormone.

All that said... Everyone knows Easter is about Jesus Christ and the festival of Easter ties in with the Jewish Passover which was a thing while people in Britain were still running round painting themselves with woad. And no one on this forum could put their hand on their heart and say they are a card-carrying Pagan, everyone knows it's a Christian festival and they still give eggs and take the day off. I am not a Christian or a Pagan and I give Easter eggs and take the day off but I do acknowledge that the festival is a Christian one.

I am completely at ease with seeing this advert in a cinema. As a non-Christian I don't find in in the least insulting and it shocks me that people have made so much fuss about it, especially seeing that many of those same people don't have a problem with Christmas adverts starting at the beginning of November, costing millions in a desperate attempt to get us to buy overpriced stuff we don't need. Christmas is a Christian holiday, whichever way anyone wants to bend it. And I've heard all the stuff about it being a family get-together and how it was nicked from the Pagans... but like I said, no one on here is a Pagan. Plenty of people here have no religion but still take the whole of Christmas off, sing carols, give presents... without for one moment acknowledging the simple truth that Jesus is the reason for the season.

him being a jew, i bet he is stoked that he started christmas..

:fan:

[Crimson Dynamo]

christmas is also the time of year with the highest suicide rate..


another win for the gods there

[Livia]

him being a jew, i bet he is stoked that he started christmas..

:fan:

I bet he is... Don't forget, there's not a classic Christmas song worth the royalties that a Jew didn't write.

[Kazanne]

I hear Marks do plus sizes now


:hehe:

:shocked: How very dare you
http://cos.h-cdn.co/assets/15/08/1424302364-supermanflatback.gif :laugh:

[Livia]

christmas is also the time of year with the highest suicide rate..


another win for the gods there

Presumably people who feel empty and alone. What a shame. Doesn't sound generally like someone who has a faith...

[Kazanne]

christmas is also the time of year with the highest suicide rate..


another win for the gods there

How is that anything to do with God,OH but I forgot he doesn't exist does he? so why blame something that doesn't exist ? silly humans.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Presumably people who feel empty and alone. What a shame. Doesn't sound generally like someone who has a faith...

I would imagine that depression has no respect for what god you chose to follow or ignore

[Livia]

I would imagine that depression has no respect for what god you chose to follow or ignore

I'd be very interested to see the statistics.

[Crimson Dynamo]

How is that anything to do with God,OH but I forgot he doesn't exist does he? so why blame something that doesn't exist ? silly humans.

kaz what does the god you believe in actually do?


like day to day or year to year

[Kazanne]

As a matter of fact... yes. It celebrates Oestra, goddess of fertility, who's feast day is 21st March and who's symbols are a hare (the Easter bunny?) and an egg... because she's a fertility goddess. It's also where we get the word 'Oestrogen', for the female hormone.

All that said... Everyone knows Easter is about Jesus Christ and the festival of Easter ties in with the Jewish Passover which was a thing while people in Britain were still running round painting themselves with woad. And no one on this forum could put their hand on their heart and say they are a card-carrying Pagan, everyone knows it's a Christian festival and they still give eggs and take the day off. I am not a Christian or a Pagan and I give Easter eggs and take the day off but I do acknowledge that the festival is a Christian one.

I am completely at ease with seeing this advert in a cinema. As a non-Christian I don't find in in the least insulting and it shocks me that people have made so much fuss about it, especially seeing that many of those same people don't have a problem with Christmas adverts starting at the beginning of November, costing millions in a desperate attempt to get us to buy overpriced stuff we don't need. Christmas is a Christian holiday, whichever way anyone wants to bend it. And I've heard all the stuff about it being a family get-together and how it was nicked from the Pagans... but like I said, no one on here is a Pagan. Plenty of people here have no religion but still take the whole of Christmas off, sing carols, give presents... without for one moment acknowledging the simple truth that Jesus is the reason for the season.

:clap1::clap1::worship:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ask yourself a simple question. Should those who claim to be Christian take the Bible seriously? In Jeremiah 10:2, God declared to His people through the pen of the prophet: "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles." He went on to state that "the customs of the peoples are futile," that is, they are utterly empty and useless. God wants His people to follow His instructions, not to look at pagan practices and seek to copy them. What kind of empty, pagan customs was Jeremiah talking about in Jeremiah 10? The specific example in that chapter involved going out into the woods, cutting a tree and bringing it home to set it upright and decorate it (vv. 3–4). Does this sound amazingly like putting up a Christmas tree? It should.

Jesus declared: "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7). Those who wish to use Christmas to worship Christ are faced with a dilemma: do they follow the pattern of worship prescribed in Scripture, or do they cling to cherished customs, regardless of when and how those customs originated? Jesus censured many of the religious leaders of His day because they rejected the commandments of God in order to keep their own traditions (v. 9).

Would Jesus say those same words to you, based upon your actions and your choices?

When the ancient Israelites were ready to enter the Promised Land, they were warned against adopting religious customs from the surrounding nations (Deuteronomy 12:30–31). God told them instead to observe all the things that He instructed them, neither adding nor taking away from what He had taught (v. 32).

So, instead of seeking to put Christ back into Christmas, we must acknowledge that He was never there in the first place! Christmas never was Christian! True Christians will give it back to the pagans, to whom it has belonged all along! Instead of borrowing from the world around us, we ought to take our religious customs and practices directly from the Bible. Then we will be worshiping our Creator in spirit and truth, just as He teaches us to do (John 4:24).


- See more at: http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2004/november-december/is-christmas-christian#sthash.0q7CErcA.dpuf



Not the Old testament outing the "Christians" in this thread :whistle:

[Niamh.]

Well, I'm not a massive Chocolate fan anyway but my kids are and the eggs look nicer and something a bit different

What about Halloween then hhmmm, do your kids dress up because you know that's an old Celtic Pagan festival...... :p It's alright though I get it, it's fun just like Christmas (without the religious palavar that goes with it)

Halloween anyone???? ehem

[Livia]

Ask yourself a simple question. Should those who claim to be Christian take the Bible seriously? In Jeremiah 10:2, God declared to His people through the pen of the prophet: "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles." He went on to state that "the customs of the peoples are futile," that is, they are utterly empty and useless. God wants His people to follow His instructions, not to look at pagan practices and seek to copy them. What kind of empty, pagan customs was Jeremiah talking about in Jeremiah 10? The specific example in that chapter involved going out into the woods, cutting a tree and bringing it home to set it upright and decorate it (vv. 3–4). Does this sound amazingly like putting up a Christmas tree? It should.

Jesus declared: "And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7). Those who wish to use Christmas to worship Christ are faced with a dilemma: do they follow the pattern of worship prescribed in Scripture, or do they cling to cherished customs, regardless of when and how those customs originated? Jesus censured many of the religious leaders of His day because they rejected the commandments of God in order to keep their own traditions (v. 9).

Would Jesus say those same words to you, based upon your actions and your choices?

When the ancient Israelites were ready to enter the Promised Land, they were warned against adopting religious customs from the surrounding nations (Deuteronomy 12:30–31). God told them instead to observe all the things that He instructed them, neither adding nor taking away from what He had taught (v. 32).

So, instead of seeking to put Christ back into Christmas, we must acknowledge that He was never there in the first place! Christmas never was Christian! True Christians will give it back to the pagans, to whom it has belonged all along! Instead of borrowing from the world around us, we ought to take our religious customs and practices directly from the Bible. Then we will be worshiping our Creator in spirit and truth, just as He teaches us to do (John 4:24).


- See more at: http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2004/november-december/is-christmas-christian#sthash.0q7CErcA.dpuf



Not the Old testament outing the "Christians" in this thread :whistle:

The Old Testament pre-dates Christianity... so that's a bit silly.

If you're taking time off at the end of December and giving your kids presents... you are celebrating Christmas. Whichever way you wriggle, whatever you come up with on Google... unless you're one of the stupidest people in the country - and everyone knows all the really stupid people are over at DS - then you are celebrating a Christian festival. Mazel tov!

[Kazanne]

kaz what does the god you believe in actually do?


like day to day or year to year

The God I believe in isn't someone pottering about in the clouds ,making things happen, (or not happen)the God I believe in is a spiritual feeling of comfort,hope and peace,It's a personal thing, I believe Jesus was a real person and something higher exists,are you laughing yet:laugh:

[Niamh.]

The Old Testament pre-dates Christianity... so that's a bit silly.

If you're taking time off at the end of December and giving your kids presents... you are celebrating Christmas. Whichever way you wriggle, whatever you come up with on Google... unless you're one of the stupidest people in the country - and everyone knows all the really stupid people are over at DS - then you are celebrating a Christian festival. Mazel tov!

Absolutely, I'm not denying this, but for me It's a tradition that I enjoy, because I get time off work and It's a good time to spend with my family, it has evolved for me absolutely away from the Christian bit and just into a nice relaxing time of the year, just like the Christians evolved Christmas from the Pagan festival :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The God I believe in isn't someone pottering about in the clouds ,making things happen, (or not happen)the God I believe in is a spiritual feeling of comfort,hope and peace,It's a personal thing, I believe Jesus was a real person and something higher exists,are you laughing yet:laugh:


isnt that just you protecting yourself from the reality that there is nothing and your life and our lives has no meaning?

[Livia]

Absolutely, I'm not denying this, but for me It's a tradition that I enjoy, because I get time off work and It's a good time to spend with my family, it has evolved for me absolutely away from the Christian bit and just into a nice relaxing time of the year, just like the Christians evolved Christmas from the Pagan festival :hee:

You are acknowledging it's a Christian holiday though... even though you don't celebrate the religious aspect of it, you still understand it's significance to other people who are Christian. I don't understand why people can't do that with this advert and just get on with their lives.

[Kazanne]

Halloween anyone???? ehem

Kids dress up and trick or treat,but Halloween is not something you believe in or not,plus,I also like a good horror movie ,:hehe:just don't tell anyone.

[Livia]

The God I believe in isn't someone pottering about in the clouds ,making things happen, (or not happen)the God I believe in is a spiritual feeling of comfort,hope and peace,It's a personal thing, I believe Jesus was a real person and something higher exists,are you laughing yet:laugh:

It's impossible to explain faith, Kaz. And LT knows it, the absolute b*st*rd...

You are. LT. You know you are.

The closest things to an explanation I've ever heard is the story of the blind child flying a kite. He can't see the kite... but he can feel it pulling on the string.

[Niamh.]

You are acknowledging it's a Christian holiday though... even though you don't celebrate the religious aspect of it, you still understand it's significance to other people who are Christian. I don't understand why people can't do that with this advert and just get on with their lives.

Oh yeah whatever, I forgot this thread was even about the advert lol Regarding the advert though, it was the cinema who refused to air it not people petitioning them or anything :shrug:

[Kazanne]

isnt that just you protecting yourself from the reality that there is nothing and your life and our lives has no meaning?

I do think my life has meaning though LT.I respect you don't , I don't think I am protecting myself .

[Livia]

Oh yeah whatever, I forgot this thread was even about the advert lol Regarding the advert though, it was the cinema who refused to air it not people petitioning them or anything :shrug:

The cinema chain accepted the ad. They even offered them a discount. It had been passed with a U certificate, all was going well... until the cinema decided it was "policy". Apparently a policy that they didn't have a couple of months ago.

They're terrified of people of other religions - and atheists - having a hissy fit while actually, most people of other faiths probably have no idea what the fuss is about.

[bots]

The cinema chain accepted the ad. They even offered them a discount. It had been passed with a U certificate, all was going well... until the cinema decided it was "policy". Apparently a policy that they didn't have a couple of months ago.

They're terrified of people of other religions - and atheists - having a hissy fit while actually, most people of other faiths probably have no idea what the fuss is about.

I honestly don't get the fuss at it being pulled. This is clearly a business decision by the cinema owners. If the church wants to, it can saturate ITV and the satellite channels with its Ad. Its not been banned universally.

People should chill, tis the season of goodwill :nono:

[Livia]

I honestly don't get the fuss at it being pulled. This is clearly a business decision by the cinema owners. If the church wants to, it can saturate ITV and the satellite channels with its Ad. Its not been banned universally.

People should chill, tis the season of goodwill :nono:

Funny thing is, it's given the advert a lot more publicity than it would have ordinarily received.

I agree BITS... everyone should just chill.

[Kazanne]

It's impossible to explain faith, Kaz. And LT knows it, the absolute b*st*rd...

You are. LT. You know you are.

The closest things to an explanation I've ever heard is the story of the blind child flying a kite. He can't see the kite... but he can feel it pulling on the string.

:laugh::laugh: isn't he just ? Yes that is a good analogy Livia.:wavey:

[Crimson Dynamo]

William of Ockham (1285-1349) points out that, where one is presented with two hypotheses that are otherwise equally well-supported by the available evidence, you should always pick the simplest hypothesis. In particular, we shouldn’t gratuitously introduce any superfluous entities. This principle, known as Ockham’s razor, is very sensible. Take, for example, these two hypotheses:

A: There are invisible, intangible and immaterial fairies at the bottom of the garden, in addition to the compost heap, flowers, trees, shrubs, and so on.

B: There are no fairies at the bottom of the garden, just the compost heap, flowers, trees, shrubs, and so on.

Everything I have observed fits both hypotheses equally well. After all, if the fairies at the bottom of my garden are invisible, intangible and immaterial, then I shouldn’t expect to observe any evidence of their presence, should I? Does the fact that the available evidence fits both hypothesis equally well mean that I suspend judgement on whether or not there are fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Of course not. The rational thing to believe is that there are no fairies. For that’s the simplest hypothesis. Why introduce the unnecessary fairies?

Similarly, if the available evidence were equally to fit both atheism and theism, then atheism would be the rational position to adopt. For the atheistic hypothesis is simpler: it sticks with just the natural world we see around us and dispenses with the additional, supernatural being.


https://humanism.org.uk/about/humanist-philosophers/faq/whats-so-wrong-with-faith/

[joeysteele]

It's impossible to explain faith, Kaz. And LT knows it, the absolute b*st*rd...

You are. LT. You know you are.

The closest things to an explanation I've ever heard is the story of the blind child flying a kite. He can't see the kite... but he can feel it pulling on the string.

Brilliant response, very thought provoking and well said n all your posts on this issue.
Very informed and reasoned too.

[Cherie]

isnt that just you protecting yourself from the reality that there is nothing and your life and our lives has no meaning?

Have you not had a piss in the river today you seem very grumpy :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Brilliant response, very thought provoking and well said n all your posts on this issue.
Very informed and reasoned too.

joey you are applauding livia for calling me a bastard?

that is very christian of you


:rolleyes:

[Kazanne]

Have you not had a piss in the river today you seem very grumpy :laugh:

:joker::joker::joker: That's another thing LT,who do you think you are , polluting Gods waterways:hehe:

[Kazanne]

joey you are applauding livia for calling me a bastard?

that is very christian of you


:rolleyes:

:joker::joker: This is a great thread LT , thank the Lord for that :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

:joker::joker: This is a great thread LT , thank the Lord for that :joker:

Bless you, sister Kaz

:hehe:

[Kazanne]

Bless you, sister Kaz

:hehe:

Bless you my child http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090104233149/wikiality/images/2/23/Nun1.jpg:laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bless you my child http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090104233149/wikiality/images/2/23/Nun1.jpg:laugh:

ah finally, a place to store my communion wafer

[Johnnyuk123]

Bless you, sister Kaz

:hehe:

You and LT are too funny.:joker:
Sorry about my post earlier Kaz. I read it wrong like Kirk said.
My fault. sorry.:wavey:

[Kazanne]

ah finally, a place to store my communion wafer

:shocked: sacrilege.:nono::hehe:

[Kazanne]

You and LT are too funny.:joker:
Sorry about my post earlier Kaz. I read it wrong like Kirk said.
My fault. sorry.:wavey:

No worries Johnny :wavey:

[smudgie]

William of Ockham (1285-1349) points out that, where one is presented with two hypotheses that are otherwise equally well-supported by the available evidence, you should always pick the simplest hypothesis. In particular, we shouldn’t gratuitously introduce any superfluous entities. This principle, known as Ockham’s razor, is very sensible. Take, for example, these two hypotheses:

A: There are invisible, intangible and immaterial fairies at the bottom of the garden, in addition to the compost heap, flowers, trees, shrubs, and so on.

B: There are no fairies at the bottom of the garden, just the compost heap, flowers, trees, shrubs, and so on.

Everything I have observed fits both hypotheses equally well. After all, if the fairies at the bottom of my garden are invisible, intangible and immaterial, then I shouldn’t expect to observe any evidence of their presence, should I? Does the fact that the available evidence fits both hypothesis equally well mean that I suspend judgement on whether or not there are fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Of course not. The rational thing to believe is that there are no fairies. For that’s the simplest hypothesis. Why introduce the unnecessary fairies?

Similarly, if the available evidence were equally to fit both atheism and theism, then atheism would be the rational position to adopt. For the atheistic hypothesis is simpler: it sticks with just the natural world we see around us and dispenses with the additional, supernatural being.


https://humanism.org.uk/about/humanist-philosophers/faq/whats-so-wrong-with-faith/

My kids had fairies at the bottom of the gaden, they never actually managed to get a glimpse of them but they knew their names and they also knew that those fairies would tell me if they told me lies.
Worked a treat, nothing like a bit of magic in childhood.
Sometimes it is just enough to believe..without absolute evidence:shrug:

[Livia]

joey you are applauding livia for calling me a bastard?

that is very christian of you


:rolleyes:



You know I love you... even though you are a b*st*rd.

[Johnnyuk123]

And 'people of faith' are lambasted as naive and gullible.

First of all Johnny - Nowhere in the Judeo- Christian Bible does it claim that Christ was born on the 25th of December. That date was seized upon by the newly Christian Emperor Constantine to celebrate 'The Mass of Christ' (Christmas) because the Winter Solstice and the ancient pagan Roman midwinter festivals called 'Saturnalia' took place on this date, so it would help the previously pagan subjects of the Roman Empire to more easily 'acclimatise' to their new religion.

Secondly, this fact does make a nonsense of any claims that 'Christmas' is nothing to do with Jesus. There is a gulf of difference in claiming that Jesus was BORN on the 25th of December - which no Christian does - and in merely celebrating his MASS on that day for the ancient reasons given above.

If Christmas was nothing to do with Jesus (a ludicrous claim given the name 'Christ Mass') and ALL to do with pre-existing Pagan festivals which were originally held on that date (some erroneously by the way - more of which below) then WHY aren't all you atheists sending each other 'Merry 'Dies Natalis Solis Invicti' cards, exchanging 'Saturnalia Gifts' and wishing each other 'Happy Mithrasmas'?

Unfortunately for the author(s) of the linked article you provided Johnny, and those who 'believe' in its truths - Nowhere is there any historical corroboration that the totally mythical entity Mithra was born on the 25th of December either. There is only problematical and highly contested conjecture.

So it is nothing but 'Skeptic Fallacy' for anyone to claim that Christians hijacked the 25th of December as Christ's 'Birthday' because they were copying Mithraism - Christians do not claim that birthdate for Christ, they only celebrate his mass on it, and apart from the fact that Mithras is a total myth, there is no historical proof anywhere to corrobarate any claims that 'Mithras' was 'born' on that date either.

In addition; how can Christ be an invention copied from Mithras when the Roman cult of Mithras was not popularized until the 1st to 4th Century AD -- AFTER the death of Christ and over a thousand years or so AFTER the Old Testament prophecies of Christ's birth and the circumstances surrounding it?

And this is not the only fallacy about Mithra in your linked article and elsewhere Johnny:

MITHRA

“Mithras was born of a virgin” — According to historians, Mithras was born from a rock, and not even of a person at all, much less a 'virgin'.

“Mithras's 'Birth' was attended to by Shepherds” — This claim is based solely on the stone relief below which shows humans holding what do appear to be shepherd's crooks :

http://beginningandend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mithras-with-shepherds.jpg

Which not only nails the Mithras 'Virgin Birth' as a clear lie, but is also fascinating seeing as how Mithras was supposed to be 'born' BEFORE the creation of HUMANKIND.

“Mithra had 12 disciples.” — Solely based on another carving below which shows Mithras surrounded by 12 signs of the Zodiac:

http://beginningandend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mitrhas-with-stars.jpg

What kind of idiotic leap of faith does it take to turn 12 signs of the zodiac into 12 living breathing human disciples? To illustrate how desperate the anti-Christian lobby are, one researcher - Franz Cumont - even suggested that the zodiac signs in the relief were actually 'disciples' 'dressed up as zodiac signs'. :facepalm:

“Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected.” — More lies by anti-Christian bullshotters, because in Mithraism, Mithras never dies. After concluding his earthly mission he 'returns to the skies in a chariot', and in Mithraism there is no historical mention of crucifixion, burial or resurrection in any artwork or text.

So without death - How can there be resurrection Johnny?

“...there is “no death of Mithras” - Rihard L Gordon: 'Image and Value in the Graeco-Roman World: Studies in Mithraism and Religious Art'.

“We don’t know anything about the death of Mithras…We have a lot of monuments, but we have almost no textual evidence, because this was a secret religion. But I know of no references to a supposed death and resurrection.” - Dr. Edwin Yamauchi.

"Mithras as a real person did not exist" - Franz Cumont.

There is a lot more on Mithras which I look forward to debating with you Johnny, plus the rest of the fallacies in your linked article, and your other points concerning 'Noah's Ark' etc - but only in a serious civil manner, otherwise it is just futile.

For now, I must leave it here - I am supposed to be working hard on finishng a kitchen refit, which I HAVE managed to do the majority of DESPITE 'idling away' hours of my time on here. :laugh:

Hi Kirk,
Point 1: I said very early on in here that Athiests can't hate anykind of god because they cannot hate something they do not believe existed in the first place. So your Athiest argument is redundant. How could i hate something that to me does not exist?

Point 2: There have been thousands of gods and many gods came before this god. What makes this god so special that he out trumps all the other gods who got here long before he did?

POINT 3: I asked a question earlier which no one wants too answer so i will ask it again. Hopefully you can shed some light on this for me. Thanks. :wavey:
Q: How did Noah fit 8.7million ( x2 remember ) so that is 17.4 million animals into a 500 foot wooden boat.

Point 4: You are quick to call out all the other gods that were around at that time as false,fallices,fake or whatever but yet many of those gods were on this planet long before your god of choice was. Wouldn't it be logical to root for the first true god rather than cherry pick a late commer to the religious table?

I will have to disagree with you on the christmas mass thing. Why were christians fighting against it for centuries? They then changed their minds. lol They defo hijacked christmas Kirk and many christians still do claim it as their own and as his actual birth date. I'm not saying you do but many christans still believe this.

You asked...So without death - How can there be resurrection Johnny?
You first have to prove to me that resurrection is real Kirk.
But if i have to answer without proof from you that it is real then i will say.....
It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it.

Final question...If the Bible is the word of god then why so many rewrites?

:wavey:

[arista]

"It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it."


Bang On Right Johnny

[Johnnyuk123]

"It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it."


Bang On Right Johnny

Hi Arista. :wavey:

[Livia]

It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it.


You can't prove there is no resurrection any more than someone could present evidence of God. So... back to square one.

[Johnnyuk123]

You can't prove there is no resurrection any more than someone could present evidence of God. So... back to square one.

And that proof falls down to christians themselves. I'm all ears, tell/show me the proof?:wavey:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You can't prove there is no resurrection any more than someone could present evidence of God. So... back to square one.

but you can look at the evidence of what is around us, look at entropy in the universe, half-life in physics and conclude that the most likely outcome is that it does not exist

as i said earlier, the least unusual and most explainable outcome tends to be the right



like say Kirk seeing a ghost

either kirk is right and all of science as we know it today is wrong

or

kirk saw a shadow and was mistaken

[Livia]

but you can look at the evidence of what is around us, look at entropy in the universe, half-life in physics and conclude that the most likely outcome is that it does not exist

as i said earlier, the least unusual and most explainable outcome tends to be the right



like say Kirk seeing a ghost

either kirk is right and all of science as we know it today is wrong

or

kirk saw a shadow and was mistaken

Because science can't prove something right now doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Science can't prove love is real, but if you've had it and you've given it, you know, despite the scientific uncertainty, that it exists.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Because science can't prove something right now doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Science can't prove love is real, but if you've had it and you've given it, you know, despite the scientific uncertainty, that it exists.

love isnt anything, its a blanket term that encapsulates many emotions and meanings.

if you strip it down to human love then you can find perfectly logical Darwinian reasons for it and essentially it boils down to gene preservation and transfer

[kirklancaster]

How is that anything to do with God,OH but I forgot he doesn't exist does he? so why blame something that doesn't exist ? silly humans.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Livia]

love isnt anything, its a blanket term that encapsulates many emotions and meanings.

if you strip it down to human love then you can find perfectly logical Darwinian reasons for it and essentially it boils down to gene preservation and transfer

That's the scientific response? That love isn't anything? Is that the official response of science?

Love exists. Faith exists. You can't prove or disprove either.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's the scientific response? That love isn't anything? Is that the official response of science?

Love exists. Faith exists. You can't prove or disprove either.

what love exists?

love for an ice lolly, love for a tv show or a car, love for a pal

its just a word that is used to describe preference

parents have love for their children but that is because of millions of years of evolution and gene preservation. the ones that did not "love" their children died out.

[Johnnyuk123]

This is worth a watch.
2-d4otHE-YI

[Livia]

what love exists?

love for an ice lolly, love for a tv show or a car, love for a pal

its just a word that is used to describe preference

parents have love for their children but that is because of millions of years of evolution and gene preservation. the ones that did not "love" their children died out.

I mean love for another person. Love that would mean you'd die in their place. You know what I mean.

[Livia]

I haven't read all the way through this thread so this may be have been posted before, apologies if it has.

He [Richard Dawkins] told the Guardian: “My immediate response was to tweet that it was a violation of freedom of speech. But I deleted it when respondents convinced me that it was a matter of commercial judgment on the part of the cinemas, not so much a free speech issue. I still strongly object to suppressing the ads on the grounds that they might ‘offend’ people. If anybody is ‘offended’ by something so trivial as a prayer, they deserve to be offended.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/richard-dawkins-says-uk-cinemas-should-screen-the-lords-prayer

[Kizzy]

Well that wasn't the case so it's all just guesswork as to why it was seeing as the explanation that they have given has fallen on deaf ears.
Yule all be enjoying crimbo soon, we should count our blessings.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I haven't read all the way through this thread so this may be have been posted before, apologies if it has.

He [Richard Dawkins] told the Guardian: “My immediate response was to tweet that it was a violation of freedom of speech. But I deleted it when respondents convinced me that it was a matter of commercial judgment on the part of the cinemas, not so much a free speech issue. I still strongly object to suppressing the ads on the grounds that they might ‘offend’ people. If anybody is ‘offended’ by something so trivial as a prayer, they deserve to be offended.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/richard-dawkins-says-uk-cinemas-should-screen-the-lords-prayer

you know the drill

the reason the cinema has the policy is in case someone working in a senior rle there gets blamed for something

its how companies work. business is not nice, rational or fair. business is about people being selfish, making money and fck other people

humans are like that, we are nasty and selfish and ego-centric

we all are. its why religion never works

[kirklancaster]

Hi Kirk,
Point 1: I said very early on in here that Athiests can't hate anykind of god because they cannot hate something they do not believe existed in the first place. So your Athiest argument is redundant. How could i hate something that to me does not exist?

Point 2: There have been thousands of gods and many gods came before this god. What makes this god so special that he out trumps all the other gods who got here long before he did?

POINT 3: I asked a question earlier which no one wants too answer so i will ask it again. Hopefully you can shed some light on this for me. Thanks. :wavey:
Q: How did Noah fit 8.7million ( x2 remember ) so that is 17.4 million animals into a 500 foot wooden boat.

Point 4: You are quick to call out all the other gods that were around at that time as false,fallices,fake or whatever but yet many of those gods were on this planet long before your god of choice was. Wouldn't it be logical to root for the first true god rather than cherry pick a late commer to the religious table?

I will have to disagree with you on the christmas mass thing. Why were christians fighting against it for centuries? They then changed their minds. lol They defo hijacked christmas Kirk and many christians still do claim it as their own and as his actual birth date. I'm not saying you do but many christans still believe this.

You asked...So without death - How can there be resurrection Johnny?
You first have to prove to me that resurrection is real Kirk.
But if i have to answer without proof from you that it is real then i will say.....
It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it.

Final question...If the Bible is the word of god then why so many rewrites?

:wavey:

Seriously Johnny - I am disappointed.

My post dealt specifically with just part of the article which you linked as some sort of irrefutable truth that Christians copied other deities for Christ including Mithras, and that they poached the 25th of December as Christ's 'Birthday' because that was these other deities and Mithras's 'Birthday' too.

I have rebutted the Mithras - Jesus fallacy but you do not accept it, and go off on tangents about things I did not say.

Point 1) "So your Athiest argument is redundant. How could i hate something that to me does not exist?"

But I have never accused you of hating anything Johnny? And I don't know what you mean by 'my atheist argument'? :shrug:

Point 2: "There have been thousands of gods and many gods came before this god. What makes this god so special that he out trumps all the other gods who got here long before he did?"

This really is a far too complex subject to cover here Johnny, and I am wising up to investing time and effort into long comprehensive posts which no one reads or takes notice of anyway. I will just say, that different peoples in many different locations had different names for God throughout different periods of history - from the fertility and agricultural 'Gods' to different names for the same God.

Exodus 6:3, The God I personally believe in said to Moses: "I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El Shaddai, but I did not make myself known to them by my name YHWH."

POINT 3: I asked a question earlier which no one wants too answer so i will ask it again. Hopefully you can shed some light on this for me. Thanks. :wavey:
Q: How did Noah fit 8.7million ( x2 remember ) so that is 17.4 million animals into a 500 foot wooden boat.

I will answer this later Johnny.

Point 4: You are quick to call out all the other gods that were around at that time as false,fallices,fake or whatever but yet many of those gods were on this planet long before your god of choice was. Wouldn't it be logical to root for the first true god rather than cherry pick a late commer to the religious table?

This point is really point 2 isn't it? But isn't it 'natural' even in the Atheist's beloved field of Science to stop 'believing' in long held 'tenets' once further research and discovery has discredited such 'tenets' or disproved them altogether? The 'Expanding Earth Theory' once believed by Tessla and Darwin among other notables has now all but been rendered wrong by the theory of 'Plate Tectonics' for example.

Now I am free to believe in an 'Expanding Earth' or opt for 'Plate Tectonics', but as someone who has researched both, I elect to believe in the latter as being the one true theory.

Why shouldn't I believe in THE ONE TRUE GOD over some obscure fertility 'Godess' or other deity, after I have carried out similar but even more exhausting research? And my God was no 'latecomer' to any table, he is eternal and predates all other false 'Gods' whether his name was known to man or not, and whether man called him by some other name or not.

"You asked...So without death - How can there be resurrection Johnny?
You first have to prove to me that resurrection is real Kirk.
But if i have to answer without proof from you that it is real then i will say.....
It's very simple...Just look around you, everything dies eventually,there is no resurrection you die and that is it."

I was referring specifically to the 'resurrection' deceitfully attributed to Mithras by anti-Christian academics Johnny -- If Mithras went to heaven in a chariot (probably ANOTHER filch from the Old Testament of the Judeo Christian Bible - Elijah Kings 2:11) and did not die -- How the **** can he have 'resurrected?

As for the principle of Resurrection Johnny, NO ONE - eminent scientist or otherwise KNOWS the mysteries of life, so whether you are a spiritual religious person or a scientific atheist it is all just a matter of BELIEF. Yes you atheists are as reliant on belief as ANY religious person.

One more point: ALL humans are guilty of immense arrogance when it comes to our perception of absolutes, because we do so from within the narrow parameters of our own strictly limited knowledge. For example: TIME.

I have often read and seen and heard people decry God because he created the world in 'Six Days' and Christ because he promised to return and has not in 2000 years. What utter arrogance.

If you had a newly born Mayfly, wanted to keep it as a pet, and decided to go out and buy some materials from a DIY shop with which to build it a pet home but the journey to and from the shop took you 31 minutes, then your pet would already be dead when you returned because a Mayfly's life span is just 30 minutes. What was a mere fraction of time for you was AN ETERNITY for the Mayfly - its entire life cycle in fact.

Yet, we dare to try to pretend to comprehend the supernatural mysteries of a an eternal being?

We no more understand the mysteries of time and existence than we do life and resurrection.

Science now Johnny, science, and a question for you so that I can better answer one of yours.

Just a mere 100 years ago, if ALL the greatest scientists in the world were asked how many different species of 'clean animals' they could fit on a pinhead, the person posing the question would have been jumped on and shipped off to Bedlam.

Now, we know the answer is that over 60,000 animal cells will fit on the head of an average pin - all of them capable of being processed to create animal clones.

Now, if in a mere century,MAN can achieve what their earlier counterparts considered to be impossible, WHY should we arrogantly deny out of hand the limitless capabilities of a supreme being, just because of ancient man's inability to adequately CONVEY just what had transpired?

If you flew to Jupiter right now and saw a new colour you could NOT convey to us Earthbound humans EXACTLY what you had witnessed because - again - we are limited by both a common frame of reference AND the pitiful paramaters of our puny knowledge.

Well ancient man might have suffered from the same problem when they tried to put into words the incredible events they had witnessed.

But this is twice now that I have done you the service of answering you as comprehensively as I can old friend, but you ignore my response detailing the real reason why the 25th of December was chosen as the date to celebrate Christ's Mass, and so here we are not discussing or debating but just going around in circles - futility in other words, just as I predicted.

Come on Johnny.

[Kazanne]

you know the drill

the reason the cinema has the policy is in case someone working in a senior rle there gets blamed for something

its how companies work. business is not nice, rational or fair. business is about people being selfish, making money and fck other people

humans are like that, we are nasty and selfish and ego-centric

we all are. its why religion never works

But some of us do try not to be so LT,although I agree that some humans are nasty,selfish and ego-centric

[Kizzy]

Humanity works though... It's worth remembering that, when all else fails.

[Johnnyuk123]

Kirk said

My post dealt specifically with just part of the article which you linked as some sort of irrefutable truth that Christians copied other deities for Christ including Mithras, and that they poached the 25th of December as Christ's 'Birthday' because that was these other deities and Mithras's 'Birthday' too.

Johnny

Hi Kirk,
Anyone can refute ANY of those gods as false gods from any documentation from online or from other sources if you look hard enough.
Also those people who believed in all those Gods at that time are just as valid to do so as you are to believe in the god that you worship.
But yet you refute even mock all other gods bar your god.

Some would say that is a very arrogant stance to take.

I wouldn't say that at all but what i would say is...
that by you refuting all other gods bar your one true god it actually makes you 99.99% Athiest.

For me as an athiest, NONE of them existed. So you cherry picking sections out to prove a point on ANY of these gods proves nothing to me. And you fell into the my gods better than your god trap refuting all other gods.


Kirk said

Why shouldn't I believe in THE ONE TRUE GOD over some obscure fertility 'Godess' or other deity, after I have carried out similar but even more exhausting research? And my God was no 'latecomer' to any table, he is eternal and predates all other false 'Gods' whether his name was known to man or not, and whether man called him by some other name or not.

Johnny

Who say's that he is the ONE TRUE GOD? What if your praying to the wrong god?
Proof please.
Kirk,
we will have to agree to disagree on this because my knowledge of this is very different. There were many gods around long before your god turned up.
Google (gods pre jesus) then take your pick.


Kirk said

I was referring specifically to the 'resurrection' deceitfully attributed to Mithras by anti-Christian academics Johnny -- If Mithras went to heaven in a chariot (probably ANOTHER filch from the Old Testament of the Judeo Christian Bible - Elijah Kings 2:11) and did not die -- How the **** can he have 'resurrected?

Johnny

Kirk i do not believe in resurrection.


Kirk said

As for the principle of Resurrection Johnny, NO ONE - eminent scientist or otherwise KNOWS the mysteries of life, so whether you are a spiritual religious person or a scientific atheist it is all just a matter of BELIEF. Yes you atheists are as reliant on belief as ANY religious person.

Johnny

Athiest don't have belief when it comes to gods. They lack belief.


Kirk said

One more point: ALL humans are guilty of immense arrogance when it comes to our perception of absolutes, because we do so from within the narrow parameters of our own strictly limited knowledge. For example: TIME.

I have often read and seen and heard people decry God because he created the world in 'Six Days' and Christ because he promised to return and has not in 2000 years. What utter arrogance.

Johnny

Kirk,
Please show me the proof of anything that god created.

If he is the creator of everything then he created arrogance.

What i find very arrogant is this....
lets just say that this god is real for a moment.
Explain to me why the hell did your god not flick hitlers head off when he had the chance too before he started invading those countries? Why has your god handed out cancer to millions of people. The list goes on... This god is the epitimy of arrogance, telling people to pray for him and if they don't there gonna burn in hell for all eternity but... he loves you?
And to top it all off lets not forget that he murdered his own son.
That is pure arrogance in a nutshell.

Kirk said

If you had a newly born Mayfly, wanted to keep it as a pet, and decided to go out and buy some materials from a DIY shop with which to build it a pet home but the journey to and from the shop took you 31 minutes, then your pet would already be dead when you returned because a Mayfly's life span is just 30 minutes. What was a mere fraction of time for you was AN ETERNITY for the Mayfly - its entire life cycle in fact.

Yet, we dare to try to pretend to comprehend the supernatural mysteries of a an eternal being?

Johnny

So you are saying that god has supernatural powers? Ok i can live with that.

Kirk said

Just a mere 100 years ago, if ALL the greatest scientists in the world were asked how many different species of 'clean animals' they could fit on a pinhead, the person posing the question would have been jumped on and shipped off to Bedlam.
Now, we know the answer is that over 60,000 animal cells will fit on the head of an average pin - all of them capable of being processed to create animal clones.

Johnny

Is this gonna be the premise of your noah argument that the animals all fit onto a pin, all 17.4 million of them at a time when the nearest thing to technology at hand was a rock and a stick then i'm gonna call you a cab with square wheels. :)

Kirk said

Now, if in a mere century,MAN can achieve what their earlier counterparts considered to be impossible, WHY should we arrogantly deny out of hand the limitless capabilities of a supreme being, just because of ancient man's inability to adequately CONVEY just what had transpired?

Johnny

This is the same god that created those ancient uneducated men, the same god who created the world in 6 days yet somehow he just can't handle money??? Just look at american tv and others begging you to hand over your life savings in order for god to save you. I don't believe in a supreme being Kirk especially one who created ancient uneducated men who were too stupid to understand his own words.

Kirk said

If you flew to Jupiter right now and saw a new colour you could NOT convey to us Earthbound humans EXACTLY what you had witnessed because - again - we are limited by both a common frame of reference AND the pitiful paramaters of our puny knowledge.

Well ancient man might have suffered from the same problem when they tried to put into words the incredible events they had witnessed.

Johnny
Who created these ancient men and made them so stupid?
Again show me the proof that these events took place.:wavey:

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=Johnnyuk123;8311648]

Kirk said

I was referring specifically to the 'resurrection' deceitfully attributed to Mithras by anti-Christian academics Johnny -- If Mithras went to heaven in a chariot (probably ANOTHER filch from the Old Testament of the Judeo Christian Bible - Elijah Kings 2:11) and did not die -- How the **** can he have 'resurrected?

Johnny

Kirk i do not believe in resurrection.

You are missing my point about Mithras Johnny.


Kirk said

As for the principle of Resurrection Johnny, NO ONE - eminent scientist or otherwise KNOWS the mysteries of life, so whether you are a spiritual religious person or a scientific atheist it is all just a matter of BELIEF. Yes you atheists are as reliant on belief as ANY religious person.

Johnny

Athiest don't have belief when it comes to gods. They lack belief.

You are missing my point Johnny - I was illustrating that Science is in eternal flux as far as knowledge is concered and that one days 99% 'Absolute' is tomorrow's disproved 'Theory', so BECAUSE science CANNOT prove a lot of its 'theories', aethiests are as reliant on BELIEF in science as we religious people are on our belief in our religion.

Kirk said

One more point: ALL humans are guilty of immense arrogance when it comes to our perception of absolutes, because we do so from within the narrow parameters of our own strictly limited knowledge. For example: TIME.

I have often read and seen and heard people decry God because he created the world in 'Six Days' and Christ because he promised to return and has not in 2000 years. What utter arrogance.

Johnny

Kirk,
Please show me the proof of anything that god created.

But this is the WHOLE CRUX Johnny - YOU believe life was an accident, a freak occurence and that every part of our reality came from NOTHING.

I believe in a Grand Architect, a CREATOR - GOD. So to answer your question; you, me, EVERYTHING was created by GOD. Though I can no more PROVE it than you atheists can PROVE Evolution or Chaos theory or the Big Bang or 'String Theory'.


Johnny Says:

What i find very arrogant is this....
lets just say that this god is real for a moment.
Explain to me why the hell did your god not flick hitlers head off when he had the chance too before he started invading those countries? Why has your god handed out cancer to millions of people. The list goes on... This god is the epitimy of arrogance, telling people to pray for him and if they don't there gonna burn in hell for all eternity but... he loves you?
And to top it all off lets not forget that he murdered his own son.
That is pure arrogance in a nutshell.

:laugh: You are becoming muddled Johnny, between MAN and GOD and EVIL and FREE WILL. There is not time to go into Theology here Johnny and long sincerely intentioned posts would serve no purpose anyway.

Kirk said

If you had a newly born Mayfly, wanted to keep it as a pet, and decided to go out and buy some materials from a DIY shop with which to build it a pet home but the journey to and from the shop took you 31 minutes, then your pet would already be dead when you returned because a Mayfly's life span is just 30 minutes. What was a mere fraction of time for you was AN ETERNITY for the Mayfly - its entire life cycle in fact.

Yet, we dare to try to pretend to comprehend the supernatural mysteries of a an eternal being?

Johnny

So you are saying that god has supernatural powers? Ok i can live with that.

Kirk said

Just a mere 100 years ago, if ALL the greatest scientists in the world were asked how many different species of 'clean animals' they could fit on a pinhead, the person posing the question would have been jumped on and shipped off to Bedlam.
Now, we know the answer is that over 60,000 animal cells will fit on the head of an average pin - all of them capable of being processed to create animal clones.

Johnny

Is this gonna be the premise of your noah argument that the animals all fit onto a pin, all 17.4 million of them at a time when the nearest thing to technology at hand was a rock and a stick then i'm gonna call you a cab with square wheels. :)

:laugh: Again Johnny you are completely missing my point - I was using the 'pin head' analalogy to illustrate that what seemed a scientific impossibility and certain to invoke scoffs and mockery from 'know it alls' less than a century ago, is now accepted practice.

You see Johnny, Atheists are so blinkered that they only relate to things which lie squarely within those narrow parameters I talked about, and they reject out of hand the 'Super Natural' because it is not 'Super Technological', But the word 'Supernatural' means exactly that: ' a manifestation or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.'

'Beyond Scientific understanding or the Laws of Nature' - That is it in a nutshell, and just because something is 'Beyond' scientific understanding does not mean that it DOES not exist, because - as stated - our Scientific' understanding of life is ever changing -- Yesterday's scorn invoking impossibility is tomorrow's accepted reality.


I think to close here Johnny, I will post some quotes from my favourite 'Religion-Hating' Atheist buffoon, Richard DORKins because even he often trips himself up and reveals himself to be a BELIEVER. :laugh::

"I accept that there may be things far grander and more incomprehensible than we can possibly imagine." - Richard Dawkins

"Something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe." - Richard Dawkins

And an excerpt from one of my earlier posts on this subject Johnny:

“We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment.” ― Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene.

The above issues from the mouth of the most fanatical decrier of 'Creationism' and 'Intelligent design -- "BLINDLY PROGRAMMED'!!!!

A quick dictionary definition:

programme ˈprəʊɡram/verb
past tense: programmed; past participle: programmed

1. provide (a computer or other machine) with coded instructions for the automatic performance of a task.

2. cause (a person or animal) to behave in a predetermined way.

Programmed by WHO Richard? Surely not that Grand Architect, that Master CREATOR we call GOD?

But who else could it be?

[Kizzy]

Is Dawkins not a geneticist?
Then his “We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment.”
He was talking of the gene, it's ability to fight an evolutionary fight to survive over other genes.
From an outside perspective I look on all religions as that gene, they are all fighting to preserve their own ethos, taking on others and selfishly converting them in their own ideology.
Anything to prevent them dying out.

[Livia]

Whatever Dawkins is or is not, I agree with this: "... I still strongly object to suppressing the ads on the grounds that they might ‘offend’ people. If anybody is ‘offended’ by something so trivial as a prayer, they deserve to be offended".

[Johnnyuk123]

[QUOTE=Johnnyuk123;8311648]

Kirk said

I was referring specifically to the 'resurrection' deceitfully attributed to Mithras by anti-Christian academics Johnny -- If Mithras went to heaven in a chariot (probably ANOTHER filch from the Old Testament of the Judeo Christian Bible - Elijah Kings 2:11) and did not die -- How the **** can he have 'resurrected?

Johnny

Kirk i do not believe in resurrection.

You are missing my point about Mithras Johnny.


Kirk said

As for the principle of Resurrection Johnny, NO ONE - eminent scientist or otherwise KNOWS the mysteries of life, so whether you are a spiritual religious person or a scientific atheist it is all just a matter of BELIEF. Yes you atheists are as reliant on belief as ANY religious person.

Johnny

Athiest don't have belief when it comes to gods. They lack belief.

You are missing my point Johnny - I was illustrating that Science is in eternal flux as far as knowledge is concered and that one days 99% 'Absolute' is tomorrow's disproved 'Theory', so BECAUSE science CANNOT prove a lot of its 'theories', aethiests are as reliant on BELIEF in science as we religious people are on our belief in our religion.

Kirk said

One more point: ALL humans are guilty of immense arrogance when it comes to our perception of absolutes, because we do so from within the narrow parameters of our own strictly limited knowledge. For example: TIME.

I have often read and seen and heard people decry God because he created the world in 'Six Days' and Christ because he promised to return and has not in 2000 years. What utter arrogance.

Johnny

Kirk,
Please show me the proof of anything that god created.

But this is the WHOLE CRUX Johnny - YOU believe life was an accident, a freak occurence and that every part of our reality came from NOTHING.

I believe in a Grand Architect, a CREATOR - GOD. So to answer your question; you, me, EVERYTHING was created by GOD. Though I can no more PROVE it than you atheists can PROVE Evolution or Chaos theory or the Big Bang or 'String Theory'.


Johnny Says:

What i find very arrogant is this....
lets just say that this god is real for a moment.
Explain to me why the hell did your god not flick hitlers head off when he had the chance too before he started invading those countries? Why has your god handed out cancer to millions of people. The list goes on... This god is the epitimy of arrogance, telling people to pray for him and if they don't there gonna burn in hell for all eternity but... he loves you?
And to top it all off lets not forget that he murdered his own son.
That is pure arrogance in a nutshell.

:laugh: You are becoming muddled Johnny, between MAN and GOD and EVIL and FREE WILL. There is not time to go into Theology here Johnny and long sincerely intentioned posts would serve no purpose anyway.

Kirk said

If you had a newly born Mayfly, wanted to keep it as a pet, and decided to go out and buy some materials from a DIY shop with which to build it a pet home but the journey to and from the shop took you 31 minutes, then your pet would already be dead when you returned because a Mayfly's life span is just 30 minutes. What was a mere fraction of time for you was AN ETERNITY for the Mayfly - its entire life cycle in fact.

Yet, we dare to try to pretend to comprehend the supernatural mysteries of a an eternal being?

Johnny

So you are saying that god has supernatural powers? Ok i can live with that.

Kirk said

Just a mere 100 years ago, if ALL the greatest scientists in the world were asked how many different species of 'clean animals' they could fit on a pinhead, the person posing the question would have been jumped on and shipped off to Bedlam.
Now, we know the answer is that over 60,000 animal cells will fit on the head of an average pin - all of them capable of being processed to create animal clones.

Johnny

Is this gonna be the premise of your noah argument that the animals all fit onto a pin, all 17.4 million of them at a time when the nearest thing to technology at hand was a rock and a stick then i'm gonna call you a cab with square wheels. :)

:laugh: Again Johnny you are completely missing my point - I was using the 'pin head' analalogy to illustrate that what seemed a scientific impossibility and certain to invoke scoffs and mockery from 'know it alls' less than a century ago, is now accepted practice.

You see Johnny, Atheists are so blinkered that they only relate to things which lie squarely within those narrow parameters I talked about, and they reject out of hand the 'Super Natural' because it is not 'Super Technological', But the word 'Supernatural' means exactly that: ' a manifestation or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.'

'Beyond Scientific understanding or the Laws of Nature' - That is it in a nutshell, and just because something is 'Beyond' scientific understanding does not mean that it DOES not exist, because - as stated - our Scientific' understanding of life is ever changing -- Yesterday's scorn invoking impossibility is tomorrow's accepted reality.


I think to close here Johnny, I will post some quotes from my favourite 'Religion-Hating' Atheist buffoon, Richard DORKins because even he often trips himself up and reveals himself to be a BELIEVER. :laugh::

"I accept that there may be things far grander and more incomprehensible than we can possibly imagine." - Richard Dawkins

"Something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe." - Richard Dawkins

And an excerpt from one of my earlier posts on this subject Johnny:

“We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment.” ― Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene.

The above issues from the mouth of the most fanatical decrier of 'Creationism' and 'Intelligent design -- "BLINDLY PROGRAMMED'!!!!

A quick dictionary definition:

programme ˈprəʊɡram/verb
past tense: programmed; past participle: programmed

1. provide (a computer or other machine) with coded instructions for the automatic performance of a task.

2. cause (a person or animal) to behave in a predetermined way.

Programmed by WHO Richard? Surely not that Grand Architect, that Master CREATOR we call GOD?

But who else could it be?

All of what has happened above this text is this.

Kirk, imagine if your text was clay, what you have written above back to me is basically the equivalent of you holding a large block of clay and each time i ask you a simple question you squeeze this clay and mould it into something else whilst avoiding giving me an actual straight answer to things i have clearly asked you to. You presume that i am a devoted Hawkins/hitchens or whoever it is fan and therefore can only comment on issues after i have got their full permission. lol I don't even like science or scienfiction for that matter. It is very frustrating to ask you a question and to not get an honest answer.
I have a few questions below and i have numbered them.

1.Explain Noah's Ark.
2.You havn't explained why god allowed hitler to do what he did.
3.Nor have you explained why millions of people have cancer, no explanation as to why god created this and gave it to innocent people.
4.Why is god allowing millions of people to starve to death on a daily basis?
5.Why did he create aids?

The list is endless...
You clearly state/claim that YOUR god created EVERYTHING.
Final Question...

6.So all the other gods before your god and all the worlds leading thinkers in all subjects are wrong because you are right?

[Niamh.]

All of what has happened above this text is this.

Kirk, imagine if your text was clay, what you have written above back to me is basically the equivalent of you holding a large block of clay and each time i ask you a simple question you squeeze this clay and mould it into something else whilst avoiding giving me an actual straight answer to things i have clearly asked you to. You presume that i am a devoted Hawkins/hitchens or whoever it is fan and therefore can only comment on issues after i have got their full permission. lol I don't even like science or scienfiction for that matter. It is very frustrating to ask you a question and to not get an honest answer.
I have a few questions below and i have numbered them.

1.Explain Noah's Ark.
2.You havn't explained why god allowed hitler to do what he did.
3.Nor have you explained why millions of people have cancer, no explanation as to why god created this and gave it to innocent people.
4.Why is god allowing millions of people to starve to death on a daily basis?
5.Why did he create aids?

The list is endless...
You clearly state/claim that YOUR god created EVERYTHING.
Final Question...

6.So all the other gods before your god and all the worlds leading thinkers in all subjects are wrong because you are right?

Yes I don't get this. I have never even read a Dawkins book or watched a Dawkins video yet people assume that if you don't believe in God you must follow Richard Dawkins? :laugh:

[Johnnyuk123]

Yes I don't get this. I have never even read a Dawkins book or watched a Dawkins video yet people assume that if you don't believe in God you must follow Richard Dawkins? :laugh:

Oh and don't forget we apparently hate religion too. lol
So if i don't follow the spice girls does that mean i'm a girls aloud fan?:joker:

[Kizzy]

My fave one is 'Oh you're not religious... so you don't believe in god?' :laugh:

[Niamh.]

My fave one is 'Oh you're not religious... so you don't believe in god?' :laugh:

Yes that's a good point, I actually don't believe in God but my mother does but she's not at all religious

[Kizzy]

Yes that's a good point, I actually don't believe in God but my mother does but she's not at all religious

I think to find someone who is truly religious is as rare as hens teeth.
Those who profess to be aren't they sin and go against the word of whatever book they prefer as much as the next man.
Most are just paying lip service imo, turn the other cheek?... no I smacked him in the mouth!

[Livia]

Yes I don't get this. I have never even read a Dawkins book or watched a Dawkins video yet people assume that if you don't believe in God you must follow Richard Dawkins? :laugh:

I used Dawkins quote because he is an atheist and I agreed with his comment. Not because I thought anyone on this thread who isn't religious must be a Dawkins fan.

[Livia]

I think to find someone who is truly religious is as rare as hens teeth.
Those who profess to be aren't they sin and go against the word of whatever book they prefer as much as the next man.
Most are just paying lip service imo, turn the other cheek?... no I smacked him in the mouth!

Bit judgemental.

[Niamh.]

I used Dawkins quote because he is an atheist and I agreed with his comment. Not because I thought anyone on this thread who isn't religious must be a Dawkins fan.

Oh I was just responding to Johnnys post as a more general thing not specifically to do with this thread :love:

[Livia]

Oh I was just responding to Johnnys post as a more general thing not specifically to do with this thread :love:

Oh that's okay then... I was on my way over to slap you around.

[Niamh.]

Oh that's okay then... I was on my way over to slap you around.

:worry: waaaa

[Kizzy]

Bit judgemental.

An wot?

[Livia]

An wot?

What does that mean?

[Kizzy]

What does that mean?

It means 'and what' as in 'it's my opinion and what can you do about it?'
I love a colloquialism me....

[Livia]

It means 'and what' as in 'it's my opinion and what can you do about it?'
I love a colloquialism me....

Oh see. So long as it's your opinion, massive generalisations are allowed I guess.

[Kizzy]

Oh see. So long as it's your opinion, massive generalisations are allowed I guess.

Well yes... I only have my own experiences to draw on when making a personal opinion, If you want to class that as a generalisation go ahead.
I'll be sure to point out each and every generalisation directed at anyone labelled an 'atheist' when contributing to this thread then.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;8312408]

All of what has happened above this text is this.

Kirk, imagine if your text was clay, what you have written above back to me is basically the equivalent of you holding a large block of clay and each time i ask you a simple question you squeeze this clay and mould it into something else whilst avoiding giving me an actual straight answer to things i have clearly asked you to. You presume that i am a devoted Hawkins/hitchens or whoever it is fan and therefore can only comment on issues after i have got their full permission. lol I don't even like science or scienfiction for that matter. It is very frustrating to ask you a question and to not get an honest answer.
I have a few questions below and i have numbered them.

1.Explain Noah's Ark.
2.You havn't explained why god allowed hitler to do what he did.
3.Nor have you explained why millions of people have cancer, no explanation as to why god created this and gave it to innocent people.
4.Why is god allowing millions of people to starve to death on a daily basis?
5.Why did he create aids?

The list is endless...
You clearly state/claim that YOUR god created EVERYTHING.
Final Question...

6.So all the other gods before your god and all the worlds leading thinkers in all subjects are wrong because you are right?

No - No more right than you are, but I have answered your questions Johnny and I know from experience that it is now time for me to bow out of here, because we are just going around in circles.

As for Dawkins - I do not presume anyone is a devoted fan, and NOWHERE do I say as much. I used him to illustrate that even someone who is as dismissive of God and religion as he FAMOUSLY is, reveals in his many gaffes that he is actually FAR FROM SO CERTAIN.

So I will bow out Johnny, content that you will believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.

:wavey:

[kirklancaster]

Well yes... I only have my own experiences to draw on when making a personal opinion, If you want to class that as a generalisation go ahead.
I'll be sure to point out each and every generalisation directed at anyone labelled an 'atheist' when contributing to this thread then.

:facepalm:

[Kizzy]

:facepalm:

Is there a problem with that statement?

[Johnnyuk123]

[QUOTE=Johnnyuk123;8312657]

No - No more right than you are, but I have answered your questions Johnny and I know from experience that it is now time for me to bow out of here, because we are just going around in circles.

As for Dawkins - I do not presume anyone is a devoted fan, and NOWHERE do I say as much. I used him to illustrate that even someone who is as dismissive of God and religion as he FAMOUSLY is, reveals in his many gaffes that he is actually FAR FROM SO CERTAIN.

So I will bow out Johnny, content that you will believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.

:wavey:

Ok Kirk no worries.:wavey:

[Johnnyuk123]

Bill Nye talks openly and honestly about Noah's Ark.
F4OhXQTMOEc

[Ninastar]

they are talking about this on gogglebox right now and literally all of them commented on how ridiculous this is :clap1: