Russian Military Jet shot down in Turkish Airspace

[Cherie]

https://www.rt.com/news/323215-warplane-crash-syria-turkey/


Conflicting reports about the whereabouts of the pilots.

[MTVN]

Diplomatic sh*tstorm ahead then, hopefully the pilots survive

[Northern Monkey]

Yes.I have warned of this in several threads.Last time a Russian jet entered Turkish airspace not too long ago Turkey said that they will shoot it down next time.Russia are NOT just in this to take out ISIS.
Turkey are a NATO member.If Russia decides to retaliate then oooh ****!

[Northern Monkey]

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289666&highlight=russia+west+good+idea

[MTVN]

I'd be more concerned about the Turks than the Russians. Both have belligerent and nationalist leaders but Turkey have shown themselves much less interested in attacking ISIS and they know they can force Nato's hand against Russia.

[bots]

Turkey is an ISIS supporter, so if they did shoot a Russian plane down, it wouldn't be a surprise. Turkey has always fallen in to that difficult grey area. Its great to have a strategically placed country within Nato, but their loyalties will always be questionable. Thank **** Blair's plan to get Turkey in the EU failed.

[Northern Monkey]

But it's not Turkey who are invading Russian airspace.The Russians keep doing it and keep getting warned.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

[Cherie]

The Russians are claiming that the jet was sort down from the ground, while the Turks say it was given 10 warnings in 5 minutes and they shot it down

[lostalex]

I'd be more concerned about the Turks than the Russians. Both have belligerent and nationalist leaders but Turkey have shown themselves much less interested in attacking ISIS and they know they can force Nato's hand against Russia.

And the Russians are Assad dictatorship supporters. Both are equally as bad. Assad is every bit as evil as ISIS.

how do you think Russia would react if Turkey was invading Russian airspace?

[Northern Monkey]

The Russians are claiming that the jet was sort down from the ground, while the Turks say it was given 10 warnings in 5 minutes and they shot it down
Watch the vid above in the BBC News report.It shows the two Turkish F-16's in the air above.Russians are lying again.

[arista]

They will never agree.


Next time stay away from touchy Turkey border side

[Will.]

Turkish military has shot down a Russian war plane near its border to Syria, Ankara and Moscow confirms.

The Russian Sukhoi Su-24 jet was shot down by Turkish F-16 fighter planes on Tuesday morning after violating the country's air space and ignoring nearly a dozen warnings, army officials said.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/24/09/2EC2E4A200000578-3331558-image-m-26_1448356347944.jpg

However, Russia's Ministry of Defence claims the jet was in Syrian airspace, and was shot down from the ground.

Footage shows the plane engulfed in flames as it comes crashing down in Syria's Turkomen Mountains, an area which has been the cause of recent tensions between Turkey and Russia.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/24/08/2EC2C91E00000578-3331558-image-a-12_1448353591788.jpg



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html#ixzz3sPCNSfP1

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/24/431799/default/v3/cegrab-20151124-093800-139-1-736x414.jpg

Yes Down it went fast

[smudgie]

Russians are not too good on Geography, they are always invading the space of others.
Russian sub in the Scottish waters last week, no doubt they had just got lost.
They do push their luck somewhat.

[DemolitionRed]

And the Russians are Assad dictatorship supporters. Both are equally as bad. Assad is every bit as evil as ISIS.

how do you think Russia would react if Turkey was invading Russian airspace?

This ^ The barrel bombs that have been rolled out by Assad have caused a lot more devastation that ISIS has. We all fear ISIS because of their hate for the west but the Assad regime is a far more formidable force on its own land.

I will continue to believe the Turks on this until we know otherwise. Putin lied about 'not' invading air space in Croatia so he's not to be trusted.

[MTVN]

Before the war Syria was a stable, secular and relatively sophisticated country with solid standards of living and education. Yes Assad was a brutal dictator: many world leaders are. But the genocide, slavery, mass rape, beheadings and all the other atrocities that ISIS have committed put them in a different league to the Assad government. And he was never a threat to our own national security: ISIS are.

Thankfully the Russians have been quite restrained about this far and are not leaping to escalate it. Lets hope that continues even though both pilots are now reported to be dead.

[Northern Monkey]

Daily Politics is saying that there is a possibility that the pilot who ejected could possibly have been captured by the Syrian Turkmen.They are Syrian Turks who were part of the Ottoman Empire and live on the border between Syria and Turkey.They don't like the Russians.Hopefully they don't kill him and piss off Russia as this could escalate tensions further.

[Crimson Dynamo]

one is dead, i saw the video

[MTVN]

Seems to be conflicting reports. Daily Politics did say one might have been captured but then referenced Al Jazeera saying both were dead. BBC News at 1 after that said different though, that the surviving pilot was on the run.

[Northern Monkey]

Also there are Syrian jets up.If they get in confrontation with a US/French jet then that is a risk as Russia are on the side of Assad.

[arista]

Both Pilots are Dead

[bots]

We will never know the truth of the situation. The Russians may have wanted Turkey to shoot one of their planes down. Turkey may have been trigger happy.

[Northern Monkey]

It will be slightly better and less complicated if both pilots died on the way down or on impact than if either one was killed when they landed.

[Shaun]

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

[MTVN]

A woman outside the Turkish embassy in Moscow

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/704/amz/vivo/live/images/2015/11/24/101a1faf-098e-474d-810e-a9f2b7081f88.jpg

"The pilots that were shot down, were fighting with terrorists, to save your and our civilians" the sign reads in Moscow

[arista]

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

No

Russia is better
but needs to get routes sorted

[Northern Monkey]

A woman outside the Turkish embassy in Moscow

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/704/amz/vivo/live/images/2015/11/24/101a1faf-098e-474d-810e-a9f2b7081f88.jpg

Russian women,There are'nt many ugly ones.They're all fit.

[Northern Monkey]

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).
If Russia attacked a NATO member?Yes it would be very serious.

[bots]

Does NATO even carry that much significance any more? I hardly expect a Russian retaliation would prompt everyone involved to get up in arms (literally).

Absolutely, Nato is all about collective protection, its just that none of them have been threatened/attacked recently ... and that is true because they are members of Nato.

[arista]

Both Pilots were Shot dead by Turkey Guns.

Putin has now told Russians to not go to Turkey


New update
Ref: Radio5

[kirklancaster]

Before the war Syria was a stable, secular and relatively sophisticated country with solid standards of living and education. Yes Assad was a brutal dictator: many world leaders are. But the genocide, slavery, mass rape, beheadings and all the other atrocities that ISIS have committed put them in a different league to the Assad government. And he was never a threat to our own national security: ISIS are.

Thankfully the Russians have been quite restrained about this far and are not leaping to escalate it. Lets hope that continues even though both pilots are now reported to be dead.

Another brilliant assessment of the situation MTVN.

[arista]

That Turkish leader better watch his back

http://news.sky.com/story/1593241/putin-downing-of-jet-a-stab-in-the-back

Stabbing Putin in the back
is crazy

[Cherie]

It will be slightly better and less complicated if both pilots died on the way down or on impact than if either one was killed when they landed.

They were shot by Turks

[bots]

They were shot by Turks

if they were shot, it would be by IS supporting Turks. It's about time Turkey took up a definitive position and stopped playing both sides as it suits it.

[rubymoo]

This probably warrants another thread, i read on BBC News yesterday that a Russian sub was seen off the coast of Scotland, apparently there are fears they want to cut cables???

[arista]

Yes Turkey
Kills the Kurds.

Kurds are now armed by America
to help them take out Isis,


So Turkey is in a Hell of a Mess
Avoid it on Holidays for now

[arista]

This probably warrants another thread, i read on BBC News yesterday that a Russian sub was seen off the coast of Scotland, apparently there are fears they want to cut cables???


No its OK on this thread
they are around the UK alot,
its gone on for years.

[Drew.]

Putin going to war with the Turks, this is Novos wet dream

[MTVN]

Good article:

Not only does the pro-Assad alliance now have Russian support firmly on its side, but the international community is no longer focused on defeating the regime – instead, it is concerned with defeating jihadist groups like Isis.

The shift in focus is a significant drawback for Erdogan. Years of support for, and investment in, Islamic fundamentalist groups like Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria) and Ahrar al-Sham are about to go to waste. Ankara has played a significant role in allowing Isis and other jihadists to flourish in Syria and the region. Turkey has acquiesced to jihadist groups entering Syria via Turkey as well as their use of Turkey as a transit point for smuggling arms and funds into Syria.

The Kurds in Syria, meanwhile, have established themselves as a reliable Western ally and have created, in the process, an autonomous Kurdish region that has reinvigorated Kurdish nationalism in Turkey and across the region - much to Turkey’s dismay as it continues a brutal military campaign to repress the Kurds.

Turkey has no interest in the peaceful settlement to the conflict in Syria that world powers are negotiating. As it gets desperate, Turkey will attempt to bring focus back on the Assad regime and reverse the losses it has made both in Syria and geopolitically. The decision to bring down the Russian jet is, therefore, likely to have had other political factors behind it - particularly since the jet, as far as we know, posed no immediate threat to Turkey’s national security.

More here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/turkey-has-spent-years-allowing-jihadist-groups-to-flourish-so-beware-its-real-reasons-for-shooting-a6747161.html

[Novo]

Savage animals, why couldn't they do it the right way and escort the plane out if it thought it was violating Airspace? and there are reports of a member of the rescue team killed as well looking for the Pilots, a clear sign of the hatred from The Turks towards Russia probably more to do with its Eastern Orthodox religion and ties with Greece and all Obama can say is " Turkey had a right to defend its borders " big time Charlatan

[bots]

This is a good article. Turkey does have a different agenda, and they need to be called out on it before we really get hurt.

[Z]

Savage animals, why couldn't they do it the right way and escort the plane out if it thought it was violating Airspace? and there are reports of a member of the rescue team killed as well looking for the Pilots, a clear sign of the hatred from The Turks towards Russia probably more to do with its Eastern Orthodox religion and ties with Greece and all Obama can say is " Turkey had a right to defend its borders " big time Charlatan

Agreed. I think the Turks have been extremely shrewd about the unfolding civil war in Syria and have been taking full advantage of the situation and I think Erdogan is a tyrant. While for obvious reasons I hope the Russians don't retaliate and escalate the situation, they have every right to do so and although there is a kind of a morbid irony about Russia being on the receiving end of a plane being unexpectedly shot down over civil war territory, I don't think the Turkish had any right to jump up to such extremes.

[DemolitionRed]

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

[Z]

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

Turkey isn't in the EU but I agree with your general point that western alliances won't be cracking down on Turkey for this; which is a pity because I think Turkey have been unscrupulously horrific throughout this unfolding crisis.

[bots]

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

reading reports, its far from clear that Russia did invade Turkish airspace, and if they did, it was for less than 1 or 2 seconds, so the Turks have been trigger happy. They also know what's going on there, and know that the NATO allies are supportive of Russia at the moment, so it was unnecessary and extreme to shoot the plane down.

[Novo]

War isn't clean and its not only people on the ground that get killed. Russia clearly invaded Turkish air space, was intercepted, warned and shot down.

I don't understand the surprise. A Russian jet that regularly bombs surrounding areas was shot down for infringing EU air space. The EU will not be dis embowling Turkey for this.

well it wasn't clearly.. it was right on the border and they were in there for a matter of seconds but still were shot down without posing any threat whats so ever, Nato have been violating other countrys airspace for years with clear threats and making there own rules as they go along but of course god forbid anyone who say otherwise, can't have 1 rule for one Country and another for Nato Countrys, thats not how the World should work.

[DemolitionRed]

Turkey isn't in the EU but I agree with your general point that western alliances won't be cracking down on Turkey for this; which is a pity because I think Turkey have been unscrupulously horrific throughout this unfolding crisis.

Sorry, I meant NATO.

[DemolitionRed]

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

[Novo]

Just like to point out this year Turkey violated Greek airspace with six fighter jets who were actually in formation and you can say that could be seen as a clear threat and warranted action a whole lot more then today did but they were chased off and the problem avoided and these incidents have happened thousands of times in the past 2 years, just like Zee said there really was no logical reason to attack that Russian Jet and it could have easily been avoided.

[Anaesthesia]

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

Sadly I feel the same.

I have to make an inappropriate joke though:


http://i63.tinypic.com/ajl7yd.jpg

I know it's about Ukraine, but still........

[DemolitionRed]

Sadly I feel the same.

I have to make an inappropriate joke though:


http://i63.tinypic.com/ajl7yd.jpg

I know it's about Ukraine, but still........

:clap1:

[Josy]

WW3 is imminent

[DemolitionRed]

And this isn't the first time Russia have violated Turkish air space either. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria
What we must keep in mind is, The Russians have been bombing the Turkmans who's rebel armies sit on the borders between Turkey and Syria. The Turkmans want to overthrow Assad and ISIS. The Turks support the Turkmans and so they will have zero tolerance with the Russians.

I know the Russians claim they were bombing ISIS but the Turkmans claim there is no ISIS groups within the area that's being targeted.

[Z]

I have this sick feeling in my stomach that what we have just witnessed the opening shots of WW3.

Turkey is both a Muslim nation and also a member of NATO, under the terms of that treaty Britain is obliged to defend Turkey should Russia attack.
A messy situation has just got a whole lot messier.

World War III started the day four flights were hijacked and deliberately flown into American territory. Or maybe World War III started as soon as World War II ended when we started drawing lines in the desert and carving up swathes of land and calling them British or French and paying absolutely no attention to the people who actually lived there and just expected them to get on with each other... Just because we're not cowering in Anderson shelters doesn't mean we're not at war. This is a new type of warfare and our governments don't know how to fight it because they can't drop bombs on an ideology. It's not even new territory, we were at it for years in the Cold War, but we already came up with the idea of a nuclear deterrent and the only time we ever encountered suicide bombers, we dropped two disgustingly big nuclear bombs on them to put an end to that and I think we can all agree that we should never do that again...

ISIS is not going away. We should withdraw and let them build the religious death cult nation they want to build, and then **** with their economy like we do with every other country in the world who won't play by our rules. Bombing the desert and indiscriminately killing their civilians is just going to create more terrorists who will indiscriminately kill our civilians in return. If we can continue to let a monstrosity like North Korea exist then we can let ISIS relive the dark ages until that collapses and something else pops up in its place, something that doesn't want to punctuate cups of coffee with bullets and add pyrotechnics to concerts. It's so ****ing simple I just can't fathom these sheep who shriek BOMB THEM or NOT ALL MUSLIMS SUPPORT ISIS!! They're a group of politically repressed and/or socially neglected who are disillusioned with the world we make them live in. We need to stop.

Instead, we have ****ery like this where the Turkish shoot down a Russian plane because both want to keep taking advantage of the mayhem, just on opposite sides. I don't think Putin was wrong in calling the Turkish accomplices of terrorists. They are. So are the Saudis. The Russians and the Iranians are accomplices of a murderous dictator. They're as bad as each other and so are we - we keep throwing money at the Saudis and let that nepotistic fiefdom continue to exist despite their objectively awful attitude to human rights.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Novo]

And this isn't the first time Russia have violated Turkish air space either. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria
What we must keep in mind is, The Russians have been bombing the Turkmans who's rebel armies sit on the borders between Turkey and Syria. The Turkmans want to overthrow Assad and ISIS. The Turks support the Turkmans and so they will have zero tolerance with the Russians.

I know the Russians claim they were bombing ISIS but the Turkmans claim there is no ISIS groups within the area that's being targeted.

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

[Z]

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

Because Turkey gives no ****s and knows perfectly well that the EU and NATO needs it as much as it needs them and finally had the perfect opportunity to exploit that loophole. Shoot down a Russian aircraft: no one will lift a finger to lay any blame at their doorstep because Turkey is a NATO ally and Russia wants to preserve the """""AXIS OF EVIL"""""........................................ the whole rhetoric is just stupid. Russia bombs ethnic Turkic people because they don't want Turkey to gobble up Assad's remaining terrain when Team America: World Police finally depose him. Turkey quietly supports ISIS and massacres its own Kurdish citizens to stop them from creating their own state in the chaos and gaining revenge somewhere down the line for the decades of oppression Turkey has imposed on them.

[Brother Leon]

May god bless Russia In these times. Keep us safe, Putin.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't disagree with anything you've said Z but up until now, war has been in someone else's back garden not ours. In fact a huge percentage of Brits still live in happy oblivion of what's unfolding out there in the dessert and even if they are aware, they have no idea of the global impact it could have.

This whole thing is so fcuekd up and there's absolutely nothing we (the British people) can do about it because our government will make that choice for us.

[King Gizzard]

Hug it out

[Z]

I don't disagree with anything you've said Z but up until now, war has been in someone else's back garden not ours. In fact a huge percentage of Brits still live in happy oblivion of what's unfolding out there in the dessert and even if they are aware, they have no idea of the global impact it could have.

This whole thing is so fcuekd up and there's absolutely nothing we (the British people) can do about it because our government will make that choice for us.

Yup. The average person in this country is too self centred and individualist to ever consider that the reason we're attacked is because our leaders have continued to devastate the Middle East and Africa for financial and political gain for centuries. We're stunned when we bomb a region for a decade and retribution turns up on our doorstep with a suicide belt and a Kalashnikov.

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

[Will.]

WW3 is imminent

Would we all have to go and fight or just the army?

[Livia]

the fact that Airspace around the is violated all the time, you know those frequent reports about Russia violating Swedish airspace? well Nato violated it a lot more times then Russia since 2010, as for violations in Turkey airspace Isreal have done it in the past, the point is this is a frequent thing but why was today the right time to shoot down a single plane? how can it be justified?

Israel had an agreement to use Turkish airspace up until 2009. I don't recall any examples of Israeli planes violating Turkish airspace since then. The agreement ceased following Turkey's stance on Gaza and is unlikely to be reinstated following Turkish involvement in exposing Israeli special agents in Iran a couple of years ago.

[Kizzy]

Yup. The average person in this country is too self centred and individualist to ever consider that the reason we're attacked is because our leaders have continued to devastate the Middle East and Africa for financial and political gain for centuries. We're stunned when we bomb a region for a decade and retribution turns up on our doorstep with a suicide belt and a Kalashnikov.

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

Looking forward to that Z, I agree too.

[Northern Monkey]

Russian jets did this before around a month ago and Turkey warned that if it happened again they would shoot them down.Also if the jets were only there for a couple of seconds then how were they warned 10 times in 5 minutes?Which is apparently what happened.

[Z]

Very interesting take on what happened...

http://www.politico.eu/article/erdogan-shoots-down-putin/

Erdoğan shoots down Putin

Turkey’s dangerous brinkmanship with Russia.
By

Melik Kaylan

11/24/15, 9:11 PM CET

Updated 11/24/15, 9:27 PM CET

What was Erdoğan thinking? One has to assume that the deliberate downing of a Russian bomber by Turkish fighter jets was no accident, that it was ordered from the top. Otherwise, we would have heard very audible diplomatic apologies from the Turkish side to the Kremlin. Nor would Putin have openly called it a “stab in the back.”

This little knot of what-didn’t-happen is revealing in itself. Presumably the Turks could have pretended the whole thing was an accident while assuming that Putin got the message. Instead Ankara chose to make Monday’s incident a public rebuke and humiliation for the Kremlin, a palpable act of hostility between nations and, indeed, between power blocs, for Erdoğan quickly called a meeting with NATO brass. So what were his calculations?

* * *

We should understand, first, the leadership style of the two presidents to see how such a confrontation could occur. As many have noted, Putin and Erdoğan have built power in comparable ways, using semi-despotic methods of governance to retain and deploy power unilaterally. This has allowed Putin to invade Georgia and Ukraine while Erdoğan has bombed the Kurds in Syria who are fighting ISIL. In both cases, the stoking of armed conflict in the teeth of global criticism led to consolidation of domestic support.

In Erdoğan’s case, such a risky use of Turkish air power also indicates that he has totally overcome any residual resistance from the armed forces to his overweening schemes. Both leaders, too, being free to move according to personal whim, tend to act on personal grudges against foreign leaders: witness Putin’s constant reviling of Georgia’s former President Saakashvili and Erdoğan’s of Assad.

So, the war of nerves between Putin and Erdoğan has become a motive force in itself, despite the potential of severe damage to both countries’ interests, not least the budding agreement over a Russian fuel pipeline to Europe via Turkey. No small calculation, this, as it meant the freeing up of Russian oil from its dependence on the supply route through Ukraine which gave Kiev strategic leverage over Moscow.

When Putin ordered Russian bombers into Syria to uphold Assad, Erdoğan clearly drew his own conclusions. The Kremlin didn’t care enough about the pipeline to show consideration for Erdoğan’s feelings. The more “moderate” Syrian opposition forces first bombed by Russia were precisely those getting open support from Ankara.

Furthermore, Erdoğan must have understood that he couldn’t depend on the U.S. or Europe (or NATO) to rein in Putin’s 19th century-style Great Game initiatives. Putin in Syria might represent a proxy threat to the West’s allies; but the West had sharper preoccupations, whereas it represented a direct and comprehensive threat to Turkey: Russia’s emboldening of the Shiite crescent from Tehran to Iraq to Syria fully encircled Turkey’s land borders to other Muslim countries. Erdoğan could kiss goodbye to his Neo-Ottoman imperial dreams. And presumably to the kind of massive economic infusions from the Sunni Gulf that have bolstered his domestic standing. Why fund him if he watches lamely as the Shiites build their rival power bloc with Moscow’s help?

HaberTurk TV Channel shows a burning trail as a plane comes down after being shot down near the Turkish-Syrian border

Also On Politico
Russia-Turkey energy relationship at risk

Kalina Oroschakoff
Russian Air Force Su-24 bombers fly during a military exercise in southern Russia on February 11, 2015.

Also On Politico
Turkey feels Putin’s fury over downed fighter

Vince Chadwick

* * *

Above all, though, recent events around ISIL are the likely trigger for Erdoğan’s action. Not merely because he seems to harbor a grudging sympathy for their pro-Sunni contributions, but because he sees a potential regrouping of alliances to focus on eradicating ISIL first. He senses that Europe might soften towards Putin in the joint purpose — and what that might entail. He has incited Sunni religious feeling at home to keep power and now he must stand by it: The Christian bloc looks to be uniting against Turkey in a way that recalls the very Ottoman centuries he yearns to recreate. In this scenario, even Greece and Georgia will shut their doors and isolate Turkey altogether.

So Erdoğan has chosen to test the West’s allegiance by the kind of brinkmanship that he has seen Moscow exploit repeatedly. He has demanded from his allies an answer to an ultimately divisive question, one that threatens to reorder the world’s alignments for the next 100 or so years: Do you wish to revive the Crusades?

Which is precisely what ISIL is hoping to do.

Melik Kaylan, an Anglo-Turk, is a foreign affairs columnist for Forbes.com and co-author of “The Russia-China Axis: The New Cold War” (Encounter Books, 2014).

[Kizzy]

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

[Z]

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

I highly doubt it - but Turkey is pushing the exact same button Russia pushed when it annexed the Crimea.

[Kizzy]

On the news the distances discussed sound odd, they were half a mile away from where they should be. half a mile?!

[Northern Monkey]

Putin already lied once and said the jets were shot down from the ground in Syria.He's changed his tune now there's evidence that is not the case.

[Livia]

I hope Putin knows that they won't have had NATO or UN backing........ Please say they didn't.

They didn't. But NATO says they "stand by" their Turkish ally.

[bots]

Putin already lied once and said the jets were shot down from the ground in Syria.He's changed his tune now there's evidence that is not the case.

The Turks own flight data shows that the Russian plane could only possibly have been over the border for the merest second, and only because of the unusual shape of the border at that specific point if it did cross at all.

This was a Turkish ploy in support of IS.

[joeysteele]

Not sure I see Turkey as an ally against IS to be honest.
This I think will not go down as a good moment in Turkish history.

[Livia]

Not sure I see Turkey as an ally against IS to be honest.
This I think will not go down as a good moment in Turkish history.

I agree with both points.

[bots]

Not sure I see Turkey as an ally against IS to be honest.
This I think will not go down as a good moment in Turkish history.

I agree. There have been a number of situations where the Turkish have been less than honest with respect to their support/involvement with IS

[MTVN]

It doesn't look like this will spark any great crisis thankfully. The response from Nato and the US so far has been very measured and there even seems a fair amount of sympathy for Russia in the news coverage. It could well be Turkey who come out of this with their standing reduced. It wasn't long ago that they were hailed as the future of the Middle East, providing an example as a moderate democracy which a lot of European countries even wanted to join the EU. Now they're starting to look like a bit of a liability, an authoritarian regime whose foreign policy is a mess and who is too unpredictable to be trusted. Of course that is also the view of Russia in much of the West but it is now appreciated that their involvement is going to be very important in the battle against ISIS whether Turkey likes that or not.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/24/431898/default/v1/metro-p1-nov-25-1-563x750.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/24/431904/default/v1/tim-001-1gm-25nov-front-page-1-442x589.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/24/431914/default/v1/the-sun-front-25.11.15-1-442x589.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/24/431911/default/v1/ii25.01-1-442x589.jpg

[lostalex]

Russian women,There are'nt many ugly ones.They're all fit.

you've obviously never been to Russia.

it's like how the North Koreans always use the tallest men during their propaganda even though statistically the north korean men are significantly shorter than their south korean counterparts.

[lostalex]

There was no ISIS in that area of Syria, Russia has been attacking anti-Assad forces, not ISIS. It's already been proven that most of the Russian bombings and attacks have been not on ISIS but on Anti-Assad freedom fighters. Russia doesn't care about ISIS, they know the west will take care of ISIS, instead they are using fighting terrorism as an excuse to help their dictator buddy Assad from his own people wanting democracy.

[lostalex]

Russian jets did this before around a month ago and Turkey warned that if it happened again they would shoot them down.Also if the jets were only there for a couple of seconds then how were they warned 10 times in 5 minutes?Which is apparently what happened.


good point, and also, why would the russians even get CLOSE to Turkish airspace after that warning?

I've seen the satellite positioning tracking of the russian plane, and it clearly flew into Turkish Airspace.

also let;'s keep in mind that there is NO ISIS in that area of Syria, it was only anti-assad forces. so Russia cannot claim to have been fighting ISIS down there.

[lostalex]

The fact that Russians were taken down so easily tells you what kind of sophistication the Russian technology is at this point. TURKEY was able to down Russian aircraft.. TURKEY.

also, not to make light of the situation, but all this talk of Turkey is getting me really hyped up for Thanksgiving on Thursday. :)

[Novo]

the fact that your comparing military technology and bigging up Turkey's terrorist actions and not having any sympathy for the pilot or the rescue member who lost their lifes really does sum up your Countrys stance on the whole matter, you could be an official spokesperson for them

you even know where ISIS are located now as well, if only we had you last week to tell us where they are, you could have saved so many lifes pal.

[arista]

They are now saying only One Pilot was killed

http://news.sky.com/story/1593808/one-of-downed-russian-jets-pilots-escaped

[Cherie]

They are now saying only One Pilot was killed

http://news.sky.com/story/1593808/one-of-downed-russian-jets-pilots-escaped

Yeah just heard that, good news that one survived

[arista]

Yeah just heard that, good news that one survived


Yes thats something positive in this mess

[DemolitionRed]

I've actually written an article that my friend's trying to get published for me (still editing it down from one of my usual overly long rambles into something short enough to be published somewhere as an opinion piece... haha) about all of this... I hope to get it published soon and share; if not I'll continue to paraphrase from it haha.

Look forward to reading it Z.

[kirklancaster]

Whatever the truth is on this, it is terrible, and the actions by Turkey were totally unnecessary and smack of predetermined intent.

Another human is dead because of this act of hatred, and the only thing anyone will achieve by using this tragedy as a 'political football' because of their own prejudices, is, perhaps, an own goal.

[Northern Monkey]

The fact is that Turkey did nothing out of the ordinary.Russian jets and subs are constantly pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with.They've done it here and in other European countries.Luckily they have taken the warnings and been escorted away by our air force.Britain,America or any other country would have no option but to shoot down an unauthorised jet in their airspace which ignored repeated warnings to leave.Turkey warned them last time and they've done it again.Whatever the rights and wrongs of Turkey or Russia.Entering a country's airspace without permission is seen as agression.

[Livia]

The fact is that Turkey did nothing out of the ordinary.Russian jets and subs are constantly pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with.They've done it here and in other European countries.Luckily they have taken the warnings and been escorted away by our air force.Britain,America or any other country would have no option but to shoot down an unauthorised jet in their airspace which ignored repeated warnings to leave.Turkey warned them last time and they've done it again.Whatever the rights and wrongs of Turkey or Russia entering a country's airspace without permission is seen as agression.



The UK send up the RAF if someone strays into our airspace to warn the other aircraft, we don't shoot them down from the ground. If only Turkey was so stringent in its stance on terrorists.

[Ammi]

...with the pilot, why do the reports say 'survived', 'rescued' or 'escaped' etc in single quotation marks..?...

[Northern Monkey]

The UK send up the RAF if someone strays into our airspace to warn the other aircraft, we don't shoot them down from the ground. If only Turkey was so stringent in its stance on terrorists.

I'm not supporting Turkey or saying they are squeaky clean but if Russian fighter jets came into any country and ignored ten warnings to leave then i'm sure most country's policy would be to shoot it down.Even a passenger jet which veers off course could be terror threat and could possibly be taken down after ignoring the home country's airforce let alone armed war planes.

[bots]

I'm not supporting Turkey or saying they are squeaky clean but if Russian fighter jets came into any country and ignored ten warnings to leave then i'm sure most country's policy would be to shoot it down.Even a passenger jet which veers off course could be terror threat and could possibly be taken down after ignoring the home country's airforce let alone armed war planes.

One has to use force reasonable against the threat. They know that Russians are involved in Syria and *had* no interest in Turkey, it was foolish.

Russia routinely tests borders all around the world. As Livia said, we have had aircraft stray before, they are escorted away. Similarly, are we shooting at subs or fishing boats? No. Its all part of the game and keeps everyone on their toes.

In a way I am glad Turkey took this action, this together with their selling IS oil, encouraging western terrorists to join up with IS etc builds a realistic picture of their true allegiances.

[arista]

...with the pilot, why do the reports say 'survived', 'rescued' or 'escaped' etc in single quotation marks..?...


Early Reports


Russia gives the news in its Own time

[Livia]

I'm not supporting Turkey or saying they are squeaky clean but if Russian fighter jets came into any country and ignored ten warnings to leave then i'm sure most country's policy would be to shoot it down.Even a passenger jet which veers off course could be terror threat and could possibly be taken down after ignoring the home country's airforce let alone armed war planes.

I still think it's a knee-jerk on the part of Turkey. They knew they were Russians aircraft and were out to teach them a lesson. Should they have been in Turkish airspace? No, definitely not. Is Turkey as thorough at protecting its borders from terrorists? No, not at all. In fact they are evasive and untrustworthy and I am truly surprised that NATO has decided to back them on this.

[Ammi]

Early Reports


Russia gives the news in its Own time

..so not confirmed that he's safe yet..?.../thanks Arista

[DemolitionRed]

Rescued Russian airman claims there were no warnings from Turkey

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html

[arista]

Rescued Russian airman claims there were no warnings from Turkey

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html


Yes this a Major Problem
it all very well sending it out
but how does the sender
know they are receiving it?

[DemolitionRed]

Normally a military aircraft that's received a warning will dip its wings and change course. As a last resort, flares will be fired in a final warning.

The thing is, Putin’s never-ending lies mean we shouldn't count on what's coming out of the Kremlin. It didn't take us long to realize that Putin's Viktor Yanukovych operation was a just a guise to occupy the Crimea.

[bots]

I wouldn't trust Putin further than I could throw him but I don't believe the Turkish interpretation of events for one moment either.

To my mind, Russia gave Turkey an opportunity to stir up some conflict between NATO country's and Russia to further Turkey's own ends wrt Syria.

Its all a dirty game and when "allies" are point scoring like America has toward Russia when there is no need, and they should be concentrating on furthering common goals, it reduces the chances of defeating IS.

There are too many big egos amongst the big players and Turkey will end up out of NATO and on its own if it continues down its present IS sympathiser path.

[DemolitionRed]

I still think it's a knee-jerk on the part of Turkey. They knew they were Russians aircraft and were out to teach them a lesson. Should they have been in Turkish airspace? No, definitely not. Is Turkey as thorough at protecting its borders from terrorists? No, not at all. In fact they are evasive and untrustworthy and I am truly surprised that NATO has decided to back them on this.

Turkey has repeatedly spoken with NATO about the Russian violations of Turkish air-space and NATO, along with Turkey, were well aware that Russia were being cute with them.

NATO is only playing the middle man in the present tit for tat argument. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-nato-idUSKBN0TD2C620151124#GgTCuJOz8AdvL4ui.97 They will not be backing Turkey under article 5 and although that's good for us because it prevents an all out WW3, the Kremlin have to be rubbing their hands together in glee because there's nothing they would like more than to fracture NATO agreements.

[DemolitionRed]

I wouldn't trust Putin further than I could throw him but I don't believe the Turkish interpretation of events for one moment either.

To my mind, Russia gave Turkey an opportunity to stir up some conflict between NATO country's and Russia to further Turkey's own ends wrt Syria.

Its all a dirty game and when "allies" are point scoring like America has toward Russia when there is no need, and they should be concentrating on furthering common goals, it reduces the chances of defeating IS.

There are too many big egos amongst the big players and Turkey will end up out of NATO and on its own if it continues down its present IS sympathiser path.

Its hardly a common goal. Russia has been shooting down the very people the west are trying to protect and arm. Russia’s been intent on wiping out our allied rebels since they began flying sorties in Syria; so it’s not as if Western allies attacking Russian allies is some strange new escalation....Its a proxy war that has been raging for weeks.

[bots]

Its hardly a common goal. Russia has been shooting down the very people the west are trying to protect and arm. Russia’s been intent on wiping out our allied rebels since they began flying sorties in Syria. so it’s not as if Western allies attacking Russian allies is some strange new escalation....Its a proxy war that has been raging for weeks.

IS is the common goal, clearly :shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

IS is the common goal, clearly :shrug:

Russia is there for its own interests which include keeping Assad in power. The recent downing of a civilian holiday plane stirred Russian anger towards ISIS but for Russia, ISIS is merely a paper dragon in all of this. Their main targets are those we consider allies.

[Brother Leon]

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

[Kizzy]

Maybe everyone else is like ' hey be careful we don't want to damage the oil!' And Putin is like ' screw the oil!'?

[bots]

Russia has never deviated from its position that it thinks its a bad idea to remove Assad, whatever the motivations.

America, the UK etc tried to be sneaky and force a regime change, something they are not supposed to do, yet were quite happy to try and force anyway, hence their support of opposition forces ... including IS. A few years down the line and they have said ... whoopsie ... shouldn't have enabled IS ... and now they have come to the realisation that there won't be a solution to IS without Assad at the helm. So, that means they now have pretty much the exact same stance as Russia now ... they just don't want to admit it because it shows them up for the fools that they have been

[Z]

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

Agreed, and it's farcical that people are calling Russia out for bombing anti-Assad forces when Turkey have been bombing Kurds - neither of them have been focusing on bombing ISIS!

[Z]

Maybe everyone else is like ' hey be careful we don't want to damage the oil!' And Putin is like ' screw the oil!'?

And Putin is like 'screw their oil, we have oil!'

[MTVN]

Dress it as attacking Anti Assad forces all you like, but Russia has caused ISIS to run and scramble more in the matter of weeks than the likes of US and UK have for about a year now of air strikes. Seeing it any other way is hating Russia for the sake of it. Besides...if it wasn't for the west seeing these So called moderate rebels and heroic, brave soldiers fighting Assad as allies then ISIS would never have got to this stage. The warnings were there to see, but continued funding and arms supply continued.

Russia has never deviated from its position that it thinks its a bad idea to remove Assad, whatever the motivations.

America, the UK etc tried to be sneaky and force a regime change, something they are not supposed to do, yet were quite happy to try and force anyway, hence their support of opposition forces ... including IS. A few years down the line and they have said ... whoopsie ... shouldn't have enabled IS ... and now they have come to the realisation that there won't be a solution to IS without Assad at the helm. So, that means they now have pretty much the exact same stance as Russia now ... they just don't want to admit it because it shows them up for the fools that they have been

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

[Kizzy]

And Putin is like 'screw their oil, we have oil!'

Da!

[lostalex]

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

yes, Russia has been consistent in their support for a brutal dictator, i don't see how you can see that as a good thing...The west actually deals with things as they change and evolve and then change their approach accordingly... you know, like all rational people would do.

[MTVN]

yes, Russia has been consistent in their support for a brutal dictator, i don't see how you can see that as a good thing...The west actually deals with things as they change and evolve and then change their approach accordingly... you know, like all rational people would do.

Well it's the Russian line that the West have been gradually moving towards, your government included. It was always fanciful to think that tiny bands of 'moderate' rebels would be capable of defeating both IS and the Syrian government and establishing some new democratic state in its place.

[lostalex]

Well it's the Russian line that the West have been gradually moving towards, your government included. It was always fanciful to think that tiny bands of 'moderate' rebels would be capable of defeating both IS and the Syrian government and establishing some new democratic state in its place.

but there are actually lots of syrians that are fighting for real democracy, they are not ISIS, they are people that truly want democracy. Russia just says "**** them, we like having Assad as a friend".

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if it's even just 20 people who want democracy, it is the US and Nato's job to support them, and i'm proud that we do. When there are people who genuinely want to fight against a brutal dictator, we should support them. Even if it means sometimes we are taken advantage of, and our weapons get into the wrong hands. It;'s not okay to give up on the idea of democracy in the middle east.

[MTVN]

but there are actually lots of syrians that are fighting for real democracy, they are not ISIS, they are people that truly want democracy. Russia just says "**** them, we like having Assad as a friend".

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if it's even just 20 people who want democracy, it is the US and Nato's job to support them, and i'm proud that we do. When there are people who genuinely want to fight against a brutal dictator, we should support them. Even if it means sometimes we are taken advantage of, and our weapons get into the wrong hands. It;'s not okay to give up on the idea of democracy in the middle east.

Well the US didn't do a great job when Obama drew his 'red line' over using chemical weapons and then did nothing when Assad crossed that red line. And if the West really cared that much about every government being a democracy then they would have to be fomenting uprisings against half the governments in the world but they don't. Some of our closest allies are counties with brutal governments. And maybe that's just international relations for you. It's almost impossible to have an 'ethical foreign policy' in practice, you've got to deal with the world as it is and not how you want it to be.

The first priority is to defeat ISIS and the Syrian army is the main force capable of doing that in the country. After that can come discussions of a political settlement and whether Assad should have any role in it.

[DemolitionRed]

This link gives yet another indication that Assad's 'war' on ISIS is a sham and that he supports them financially.
http://www.businessinsider.com/revealed-the-oil-middleman-between-the-syrian-regime-and-isis-2015-3?IR=T

The dangers of having so many countries operating in the same area with different agendas and allegiances. The Syrian situation is a mess.

[MTVN]

Good overview of the situation here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/campaign-against-isis-is-there-any-hope-for-military-success-a6747396.html), will just post an excerpt

The Government agrees that air strikes must be conducted in close partnership with ground forces, if they are to have a decisive impact. But the partners it has in mind are the Iraqi regular army, which is still a wreck after its defeats in 2014 and earlier this year, and the “moderate” armed opposition in Syria, which is so feeble that it barely exists. When the US tried to create one it ended up with just four “moderate” fighters – individual fighters – in Syria at a cost of $500m.

Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil [Isis]”. He did not identify these elusive moderates, but the Syrian armed opposition is dominated by three extreme Islamic fundamentalist groups, of which the most powerful is Isis, followed by the al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham, a hard-line Sunni movement. The one place where moderate and secular rebel groups had some strength was in southern Syria between Damascus and the Jordanian border. But they are in disarray since they launched an offensive in June called “Southern Storm”, which was beaten back by the Syrian army.

In Iraq, Fallon says that we are cooperating with the regular Iraqi army, which he claims is very different from the one that ran away last year. He says that at the time in June 2014, when 3,000 Isis fighters defeated at least 20,000 Iraqi army soldiers and captured Mosul, the Prime Minister of Iraq was Nouri al-Maliki, who ran a highly sectarian Shia-dominated regime. Fallon is encouraged by the fact that he has been replaced by a more inclusive government under Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi. But inside Iraq this new government is seen as even weaker and more dysfunctional than its predecessor. Its main source of authority is its control of Iraq's diminished oil revenues, but otherwise it has little power outside Baghdad. Though heavily supported by US air strikes, its best military units fled Ramadi on 17 May. General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, commented caustically that “Iraqi forces weren't 'driven out' of Ramadi, they drove out on their own”.

[bots]

Even if one goes back to Saddam's time the Iraq army was awful. His "elite" troops surrendered or ran away on mass then. Its just not a good army.

What has gone on in Syria so far would be considered laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

[Kizzy]

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

[lostalex]

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

do you have a problem with moderates?

[bots]

'Yet the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was this week claiming that our allies on the ground are going to be “moderate opposition forces in Syria who have been fighting the regime in Syria and resisting Isil'

What does this mean, that like the US we have been or will be funding moderate groups too?

it means he expects those moderates to wipe out ISIS. Good luck with that thought is all I will say on it as it will never happen and everyone but the completely stupid knows it. The US and UK have both changed their stance on Assad but to admit that now means admitting they made mistakes, but that's the reality. At some point in the future expect Assad to have miraculously grown a halo where he gains their public support.

[bots]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

------

Does he have a death wish? He is quite clearly wanting conflict with Russia

[VanessaFeltz.]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

------

Does he have a death wish? He is quite clearly wanting conflict with Russia

He is a ****ing dumb bitch and i have no idea why he is being selected over and over again. Turkey was an amazing country and slugs like him and his religious sheeps ruined the whole country.

I wanna get out of this country. NOW.

[kirklancaster]

He is a ****ing dumb bitch and i have no idea why he is being selected over and over again. Turkey was an amazing country and slugs like him and his religious sheeps ruined the whole country.

I wanna get out of this country. NOW.

Hi Meihv, good to see you posting again, even if it is over this bad situation

I really feel for you. I have some Turkish friends who feel exactly as you do. It is such a shame.

Please take care of yourself and your family.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Hi Meihv, good to see you posting again, even if it is over this bad situation

I really feel for you. I have some Turkish friends who feel exactly as you do. It is such a shame.

Please take care of yourself and your family.

Thank you very much for your kind message :)

I stopped posting because i felt like i was getting more negative here and it is very unfortunate that i left another negative comment today.

I just wish Turkey was the same place when Ataturk ruled the country and brought it to very high levels. Today Turkey is full of hate, everyone is selfish and we are going backwards not forward.

With that in mind i would like to add Russia deserved this because they always invade other country's air borders and thinking they can get away with this.

[DemolitionRed]

Agree, Russia's intervention actually looks like it could tip the balance against ISIS. Say what you like about them but at least the Russian position on Syria has been consistent, the West's has been a mess and Turkey's even worse than that.

The great thing about politics is, we all have the right to change our mind!

I had a day off today and so spent a lot of time looking through sources we aren't privy to unless we dig deep...Yeah I should get a life :hehe:

Yesterday, I would of disagreed with you. Today I totally agree with you.

[Kizzy]

Thing is Turkey are closer than we are, what do they know that we don't?
America and Russia are fighting the same fight and yet there is still animosity there, Turkey are NATO allies and Putin atm is miffed at the west.
What if these allies that dave wants to aid is Turkey against Russia and not ISIS?

[bots]

Thing is Turkey are closer than we are, what do they know that we don't?
America and Russia are fighting the same fight and yet there is still animosity there, Turkey are NATO allies and Putin atm is miffed at the west.
What if these allies that dave wants to aid is Turkey against Russia and not ISIS?

Each and every country has its own agenda in addition to fighting ISIS. If defeating ISIS was the single goal, it would all be "easy", unfortunately there are a lot of dirty games at play too, by all countries. If they left those agendas behind it would be a lot easier for everyone to get behind their efforts and support them.

[arista]

Putin has now halted all holiday Contracts
with Turkey from all of Russia
10billion Euros worth.

Ref : France24 live

[lostalex]

Putin has now halted all holiday Contracts
with Turkey from all of Russia
10billion Euros worth.

Ref : France24 live

so, no turkey for christmas in Russia then. their loss.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Putin has now halted all holiday Contracts
with Turkey from all of Russia
10billion Euros worth.

Ref : France24 live

Well bye russia you will lose money i dont care.

Funnier thing is that they are making this incident way bigger than it is when it is their fault and they do this to every country like they need to stop their aggresive politics.

[Kizzy]

Turkey and European leaders have struck a deal to try to control the flow of migrants to Europe.
Turkey will receive €3bn (£2.1bn) and political concessions in return for clamping down on its borders and keeping refugees in the country.
Talks on Turkey's accession to the European Union will also be revived.
Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said it was a "historic day" in Turkey's relations with the EU.
Under the deal, Turkish citizens may be able to travel without visas in Europe's Schengen zone, which allows free movement between many European countries, by October 2016.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34957830

[Z]

Wow. Greece won't be very happy.

[Kizzy]

I think this has sod all to do with migrants.