1000 more steel jobs gone

[the truth]

Mostly in wales and the north
The UK simply canno produce steel cheaply enough because of the EU rules and regulations and red tape...this pushes up our costs of production to completely uncompetitive levels

Meanwhile the Chinese have no such rules, so they produce it cheap and their steel is absolute garbage, check out the flimsiness of Chinese car parts when you buy them

We also let the Chinese dump their excess cheap rubbish steel across Europe and this floods the market and kills our industry

Meanwhile Cameron doe nothing, warwyn jones the welsh leader does nothing, and the European does nothing but strange yet another industry

The EU has made it too expensive to dig coal, too pricey cut slate, its stopped us fishing, destroyed agriculture, lime quarries are shut, transport costs are off the scale with their endless tacho drivers rules, now tin, copper and steel has been destroyed too

And this is actually costing us £13 billion a year and we're too scared to leave?

[JoshBB]

EU rules and regulations and red tape...this pushes up our costs of production to completely uncompetitive levels

Meanwhile the Chinese have no such rules, so they produce it cheap and their steel is absolute garbage, check out the flimsiness of Chinese car parts when you buy them


The reason regulation exists is so that our steel is not 'absolute garbage' or 'flimsy' as you put it.

These job losses are one of many negative sides of the 'free-market' that most rightwingers cite as the holy grail of economics. China flooded the market with cheap steel, therefore the supply goes up massively and demand is less.. so the price drops and jobs are lost. It's as simple as that.

This is an example of irresponsible trade, not EU failure.

[the truth]

its EU failiure in every sense, our rules are too costly, our rules and tariffs on Chinese crap are too flimsy....the EU is yet again destroying us

[JoshBB]

its EU failiure in every sense, our rules are too costly, our rules and tariffs on Chinese crap are too flimsy....the EU is yet again destroying us

You'll have to provide some actual factual evidence on which you base this, because the vast majority of us don't know the EU rulebook. All I can do here (and without sources I can only assume you are the same) is speak in principal, but EU regulation is more complex than a few soundbites.

But honestly they're more intelligent than they're given credit for. Everyone seems to speak of 'the EU' as idiotic, and as 'one being'. When in fact that is far too much of a general term to use. By EU, are we referring to it's constitution? The european parliament (directly elected representatives from EU member states)? The european commission? Legislation passed? Treaties?

[joeysteele]

It's devastatingly bad news and a disgrace more hasn't been done past and present to ensure the viability of Steel in the UK.
It is not however down to the EU but more a failure of our governments to fight for the industry.

[smudgie]

Unfortunately in a free market, some people will buy quantity over quality.
In a few years time, once the inferior quality steel starts to let people down, ii will be a bit late to wring hands and wish they had bought British.
Having said that, there are many other countries in the world still making decent quality steel, not all are like China.:shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

sadly we take any steel in instead of saying whoooah this Chinese steel has been artificially marketed by huge govt subsidies so it cant come in

reap

sow

[JoshBB]

sadly we take any steel in instead of saying whoooah this Chinese steel has been artificially marketed by huge govt subsidies so it cant come in

reap

sow

I also wonder which companies are buying this steel? I can't imagine that being good for their reputation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I also wonder which companies are buying this steel? I can't imagine that being good for their reputation.

sadly the steel jobs are collateral damage from us wanting to be chinas best friend

[Kizzy]

sadly the steel jobs are collateral damage from us wanting to be chinas best friend

Agreed.

[kirklancaster]

sadly the steel jobs are collateral damage from us wanting to be chinas best friend

I thought that we've been paying the EU £55 million + per day NET for the last 40 years so that we would not NEED any 'friends'.

[JoshBB]

I thought that we've been paying the EU £55 million + per day NET for the last 40 years so that we would not NEED any 'friends'.

We get far more out of the EU than what we pay in.

[the truth]

We get far more out of the EU than what we pay in.

what? we lose £13 billion a year to the EU?

[the truth]

You'll have to provide some actual factual evidence on which you base this, because the vast majority of us don't know the EU rulebook. All I can do here (and without sources I can only assume you are the same) is speak in principal, but EU regulation is more complex than a few soundbites.

But honestly they're more intelligent than they're given credit for. Everyone seems to speak of 'the EU' as idiotic, and as 'one being'. When in fact that is far too much of a general term to use. By EU, are we referring to it's constitution? The european parliament (directly elected representatives from EU member states)? The european commission? Legislation passed? Treaties?

the European Union is to blame. Their absurd 400 page constitution of endless laws and regulations has strangled our industries and raised our costs of production to uncompetitive levels.

[bots]

The steel industry has been dead in the UK for over 30 years, we really can't blame the Chinese or Europe for that

[the truth]

The steel industry has been dead in the UK for over 30 years, we really can't blame the Chinese or Europe for that

yes we can....the german steel industry is doing very well, port Talbot has gone from 18000 to 3000 in 25 years

[Kizzy]

Germany would not allow their infrastructure to be eroded.

[the truth]

Germany would not allow their infrastructure to be eroded.

they control the EU so change the laws and rules to suit their own infrastructure and economy

[Kizzy]

No, I mean they don't import they make their own stuff.

[the truth]

No, I mean they don't import they make their own stuff.

they control the EU and make up the rules to suit their own infrastructure, their costs of steel production are therefore lower than ours

[kirklancaster]

We get far more out of the EU than what we pay in.

:laugh: You really do need to be more expansive in your choice of sources of information Josh.

I will CHALLENGE you to a personal FAIR and HONEST debate on the validity of your statement, WITHOUT either of us being waylaid or distracted by the inevitable unsubstantiated propaganda from other members - of ANY political persuasion.

FACTS and FACTUAL COUNTER. STATISTICS and COUNTER STATISTICS and FAIR DEBATE.

It will be a lengthy debate - of necessity, but GO for it Josh.

[kirklancaster]

We get far more out of the EU than what we pay in.

:laugh: You really do need to be more expansive in your choice of information Josh.

I will CHALLENGE you to a personal FAIR and HONEST debate on the validity of your statement, WITHOUT either of us being waylaid or distracted by the inevitable unsubstantiated propaganda from other members - of ANY political persuasion.

FACTS and FACTUAL COUNTER. STATISTICS and COUNTER STATISTICS and FAIR DEBATE.

It will be a lengthy debate - of necessity, but GO for it Josh.

[kirklancaster]

We get far more out of the EU than what we pay in.

:laugh: You really do need to be more expansive in your choice of sources of information Josh.

I will CHALLENGE you to a personal FAIR and HONEST debate on the validity of your statement, WITHOUT either of us being waylaid or distracted by the inevitable unsubstantiated propaganda from other members - of ANY political persuasion.

FACTS and FACTUAL COUNTER. STATISTICS and COUNTER STATISTICS and FAIR DEBATE.

It will be a lengthy debate - of necessity, but GO for it Josh.

[bots]

why say something once if you can say it 3 times :joker:

[joeysteele]

As to the EU creeping in on this thread now,I really don't think the British public can ever get anywhere a fair and balanced debate as to the EU and certainly not from UKIP circles at all.
There is good and bad as to the EU but if the referendum is coming earlier than 2017,then no way will those actually being selected and allowed' to vote in it,ever get from politicians or the media the true and relevant fair and balanced facts as to the EU.

However, I am putting my trust in this PM to at least be seen to do the best here for the UK and hopefully he will win the day come that EU referendum and we stay in.

As to Steel,the problems have been looming a fair while and all govts have failed to make sure things were in place to protect the industry.
That has now come home to roost and sadly it looks bleak.
I really do think that the Minister Anna Soubry for the govt would love to be able to do more but the problem now is too large.
Also that she is not receiving the will to do much more from the rest of the govt she is in.

[the truth]

I didnt see all of pmq's yet, just a few highlights, but it seems jezza missed an open goal on grilling Cameron on the total destruction of the steel industry....how the heck does an economy even operate when it doesn't produce its own steel , tin , copper, coal etc? how will we ever build anything ever again?


meanwhile at port Talbot, TATA said theres a drift mine in margam they were due to open to fuel the steel works, Im informed that mine is ready but they wont use it....how many firms have they bought and closed down now? has this been the plan for years simply to close it all and relocate to india paying dirt cheap labour and energy costs and make the shareholders rich again?



Theres been no follow up to the fact we pay 50% higher energy bills in the uk than mainland Europe...FIFTY PERCENT?????????? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE? IM ABSOLUTELY GUTTED CORBYN SEEMS TO HAVE FAILED TO CRUCIFY CAMERON ON THIS TODAY.

Again at this crucial moment corbyn seems to have disappeared off our screens? is this a media con again or is he simply focusing on the wrong thing? Lets look at the bigger picture....in the 1960s ...63000 steel workers in wales, now only 6500 ...every steel works in west wales is gone bar the ever shrinking trostre in Llanelli and port Talbot the ONLY big steelworks left in the UK and gone down from 18000 to 3000



MEANWHILE as our last industry disappears to India and China all the mass majority seem to care about is starting a poll about some American presidential candidate? 600,000 people and a parliamentary debate? wheres he poll for our steelworkers? we need to prioritise here, charity begins at home



Heres some snippets from the 2012 TATA story re port Talbot and the drift mines etc




Tata could also make significant investment in waste management, so making greater use of by-products from the production of steel.

Tata has confirmed that the proposed investments, don’t account for a potential drift mine at Margam, next to the existing steelworks at Port Talbot.

Tata has been undertaking extensive geological testing at Margam as well as commercial feasibility studies – which have been modelling a return on investment by assessing long-term demand for steel globally and prices for coking coal.

While no timescale has been given for a final decision, if given the go-ahead a coking coal drift mine would involve an investment of £500m and the creation of 500 jobs.

However, it would take up to five years for any coal to reach the surface; such would be the scale and complexity of establishing such a mine operation.

In excess of 380 million tonnes of coking coal has been identified at Margam. If an investment was made by Tata it would initially look to extract around 17 million tonnes, while over time looking to exploit a further 30 million tonnes.

At present Tata imports coking coal, a key raw material in the production of steel at Port Talbot, from Australia. Its current requirement is for around 2.5 million tonnes a year.

While the cost of coking coal fluctuates depending on prevailing demand and supply dynamics globally, having coking coal right on its doorstep at Port Talbot would not only generate considerable cost-savings for Tata, but also provide surety of supply.

Tata has been lobbying the UK Government in a bid to reduce energy costs in the UK, which it says are 50% more expensive than at its plants in mainland Europe.

A spokesman for Tata said there were at least £800m of identifiable potential investment projects in Wales, for what was a capital intensive industry.

He added: “A strong vision was outlined to the First Minister Carwyn Jones by Tata’s vice-chairman last week. Some clear projects would make up that £800m, but we are not ready to commit at this stage.

“However, the key message is that the Welsh Government has got to assist us to make it come about.”

Shadow Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, Nick Ramsay, said: “This is a welcome boost for the Welsh economy and reaffirms steelmaking as one of Wales’ flagship industries.

“This additional funding will help safeguard thousands of jobs for families in Wales and could help create more.”

[kirklancaster]

why say something once if you can say it 3 times :joker:

I didn't say it 3 times - I said it once and do not know what happened. :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

As to the EU creeping in on this thread now,I really don't think the British public can ever get anywhere a fair and balanced debate as to the EU and certainly not from UKIP circles at all.
There is good and bad as to the EU but if the referendum is coming earlier than 2017,then no way will those actually being selected and allowed' to vote in it,ever get from politicians or the media the true and relevant fair and balanced facts as to the EU.

However, I am putting my trust in this PM to at least be seen to do the best here for the UK and hopefully he will win the day come that EU referendum and we stay in.

As to Steel,the problems have been looming a fair while and all govts have failed to make sure things were in place to protect the industry.
That has now come home to roost and sadly it looks bleak.
I really do think that the Minister Anna Soubry for the govt would love to be able to do more but the problem now is too large.
Also that she is not receiving the will to do much more from the rest of the govt she is in.

UKIP is but one of many sources which helps me form my opinion on the EU, and you have the right to be as dissmissive as you like on the reliability of their - or any other pro-Brexit data - but my challenge to have an honest, mature debate on the validity of Josh's statement that we "Get more out of the EU than we put in" is open to you or any other pro-EU member.

It should be fun.

[joeysteele]

UKIP is but one of many sources which helps me form my opinion on the EU, and you have the right to be as dissmissive as you like on the reliability of their - or any other pro-Brexit data - but my challenge to have an honest, mature debate on the validity of Josh's statement that we "Get more out of the EU than we put in" is open to you or any other pro-EU member.

It should be fun.

Indeed but I have yet to hear anything positive at all from UKIP as to the EU.
They present te U as having no positives.
I accept there are positives and negatives to being in the EU and I feel that is what people really need to hear and see presented,not just out at any cost and all is wrong in the EU from UKIP.

In fact if UKIP had a softer approach to the EU, I could well easily admire a great deal of what they stand for and especially as to social policy and supporting UK industry too,the main content of this thread.

We probably get more out of being in the EU across the board as to benefits of being in, however it may well be the case, if we could ever get a true picture that we pay too much into the EU.

No media in the UK will present that fair balance and most Political Parties are soundly for or against the EU except for the 2 main Parties at present,wherein in both debate does still go on by pro EU members and sceptics as to relations with the EU in a more 'open' sense of overall looking at both benefits and problems of being in the EU.
Hence the PMs efforts to get at least some reforms or extras for the UK.

[kirklancaster]

Indeed but I have yet to hear anything positive at all from UKIP as to the EU.
They present te U as having no positives.
I accept there are positives and negatives to being in the EU and I feel that is what people really need to hear and see presented,not just out at any cost and all is wrong in the EU from UKIP.

In fact if UKIP had a softer approach to the EU, I could well easily admire a great deal of what they stand for and especially as to social policy and supporting UK industry too,the main content of this thread.

We probably get more out of being in the EU across the board as to benefits of being in, however it may well be the case, if we could ever get a true picture that we pay too much into the EU.

No media in the UK will present that fair balance and most Political Parties are soundly for or against the EU except for the 2 main Parties at present,wherein in both debate does still go on by pro EU members and sceptics as to relations with the EU in a more 'open' sense of overall looking at both benefits and problems of being in the EU.
Hence the PMs efforts to get at least some reforms or extras for the UK.

But he has NO chance at all Joey - and it is an embarrassment of an empty gesture in him trying.

[the truth]

corbyn totally blew it today , his time is coming to an end

[joeysteele]

But he has NO chance at all Joey - and it is an embarrassment of an empty gesture in him trying.

I don't know,he is not asking for that much at all and somehow I feel as to the EU Cameron has fought quite well for the UK, as he should admittedly.

I think Cameron is the best person now to convince voters to back staying in,it really depends what his own Party does as to canvassing for in or out.

I think the EU may just find a way to give him most of what he is asking actually.

[the truth]

because hes not asking for ****