Does God exist?

[bonnie43uk]

Whats everyones views on God? .. does he/she/it exist?

I was spoonfed religion from birth, and its only now, nearly half a century later, i've come to the conclusion God does'nt exist.
I read some chapters from the bible before christmas ( mainly the Old Testament) .. and its absolute garbage.. God is a vengeful nasty vindictive piece of work.. read it and tell me different. God did'nt create the world, thats scientific fact, its billions of years old. If an outstretched arm is representative of the age of the planet, man has been here for the tiniest slice of a finger nail. We evolved, very very slowly. Our brains cannot even envisage the sheer age of this planet and the enormity of the universe.
If God gives you comfort I'm happy for you, but i for one, dont believe in him.

Thankyou Prof Richard Dawkins .. you've opened my eyes!

[Sunny_01]

Hmm not sure that he exists in the way we have been brought up to think, but I think that there is something out there, some higher power! Of course I think it is a female higher power as no man can multi task as well as it would have taken to create the earth and all us wonderful beings!

:xyxwave:

[Lauren]

I don't think he does, there's so many things that go against the existence of God so it can't possibly be true. I believe in some sort of spiritual side to our world, however - but I don't think there's a "higher" power that is watching us and making decisions on the world.

[Slartibartfast]

The statement "God didn't create the world, thats scientific fact" is just wrong. It's not scientific fact that God didn't create the world, there is absolutely no way of proving that either way.

I really could go on for hours about this. My brother is doing a PHD part of which is about the origins of life. He is very much a confirmed atheist and is also quite a fan of Dawkins. :bored: I am the opposite so we do have a habit of wasting hours debating this kind of stuff. But even he will accept that one cannot prove how the world was created. Both sides have their beliefs and theories, but there is no actual proof.

And don't get me started on evolution. Some of the leaps of reasoning one has to make in order to accept evolution are just as great as the leaps of faith one has to make in order to believe in God.

You are all of course entitled to your opinions about whether God exists or not, and I hope that all you non-believers have a lovely time discussing this with Richard Dawkins and his mates when you are all burning in Hell.:devil:

[Dan_]

I spent two years doing philosophy of religion discussing a whole load of arguments for and against the existence of God and I still take the stance until it can be fully proven I don't believe in the existence of God.

[Arneldo]

We will never ever ever know the answer so dont waste time trying to figue out. Just enjoy and get on with your life.

[Sticks]

I would refer you to the Anthropic Cosmological Principal, which even the atheists who came up with it, says the universe is uniquely designed for mankind.

The atheists require something from nothing, living from non-living, conscious from unconscious, and progression to humanity with large gaps in the fossil record and the violation of the laws of genetics.

Re the OT the problem is that we are looking at it with 21st century eyes, unfortunately I do not have time to illucidate any more on that topic.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
I would refer you to the Anthropic Cosmological Principal, which even the atheists who came up with it, says the universe is uniquely designed for mankind.

Many people who do not believe in God, also do not believe in Religion, and therefore do not count themselves as "atheist".

[Emilee]

Well, I beleive in God, I am a Catholic.
I do beleive God created the world, and created the Human lifeform. Although it will never be proven, i still beleive God is real.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Emilee
Well, I beleive in God, I am a Catholic.
I do beleive God created the world, and created the Human lifeform. Although it will never be proven, i still beleive God is real.

A question I've always wanted to ask a believer: Who created God?

[Lauren]

The majority of people voted yes, yet won't post their reasons in this thread. :conf:

Interesting to see that most people do.

[Emilee]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Emilee
Well, I beleive in God, I am a Catholic.
I do beleive God created the world, and created the Human lifeform. Although it will never be proven, i still beleive God is real.

A question I've always wanted to ask a believer: Who created God?

Well...........
I cannot answer that question, I beleive God wasn;t created by reproduction, be somehow created himself.... I knowthat sounds stupid to most of you, but that is what i think.

God was not created by anyone, he created himself.

[Lauren]

Nah it doesn't sound stupid - if thats what you believe then thats what you believe.

I was just interested in hearing believers views on that point.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Many people who do not believe in God, also do not believe in Religion, and therefore do not count themselves as "atheist".

But by definition, anyone who believes that there is no God, is an atheist.

Someone who is not sure is an agnostic, a term coined by Thomas Henry Huxley, (Charles Darwin's bulldog)



Originally posted by Bonnie43UK
God is a vengeful nasty vindictive piece of work.


I am assuming you were referring to the instructions to wipe people out when the Children of Israel entered the promised land? If that is the case there is a reason why such an instruction was given. You have to look at those people. They had spurned God's law and had gone into detestable practices like sacrificing babies in fire to Molech. If these people had their way they would corrupt the Children of Israel from which the Messianic line was to come from. So a lot of the instructions was to protect this messianic line.

Once we hit the NT, the way God deals with us changes.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Lauren
Many people who do not believe in God, also do not believe in Religion, and therefore do not count themselves as "atheist".

But by definition, anyone who believes that there is no God, is an atheist.

Someone who is not sure is an agnostic, a term coined by Thomas Henry Huxley, (Charles Darwin's bulldog)

By my definition I am neither of those things. In my mind I don't NOT believe in God because that is assuming that there is something out there that has substance to believe in - which IMO there is not.
That definition is assuming everything is black and white, either - there is a God or there is not, and by that meaning Atheism is it's own religion - which I do not agree with.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Lauren
Many people who do not believe in God, also do not believe in Religion, and therefore do not count themselves as "atheist".

But by definition, anyone who believes that there is no God, is an atheist.

Someone who is not sure is an agnostic, a term coined by Thomas Henry Huxley, (Charles Darwin's bulldog)

By my definition I am neither of those things. In my mind I don't NOT believe in God because that is assuming that there is something out there that has substance to believe in - which IMO there is not.
That definition is assuming everything is black and white, either - there is a God or there is not, and by that meaning Atheism is it's own religion - which I do not agree with.

I'm quite interested in your view, if a little baffled!

Generally when it comes to the existence of God, there are 4 main conclusions that people come to:

1. God exists and his existence can be proven. (theism)

2. God exists but his existence can't be proved. (also theism)

3. God doesn't exist (atheism)

4. No on can prove the existence of God so I can't be sure(Agnosticism)

Which, if any, of those groups do you feel you would fall into?

[Lauren]

Neither of them.

For me there is no concept of whether he exists or not, and therefore atheism is acknowledging a concept of God, right - because thats what it is.
And so Atheism in itself is a religion.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Lauren
...therefore atheism is acknowledging a concept of God

But thats just wrong. Atheism is acknowledging that there is no God, thats what atheism is.

You could say that an atheist still has a belief system which is not unlike religion, in that an atheist having found that there is no God, needs to believe in something else to explain the world around them.

But if you don't believe that there is a God, then you are by definition, an atheist.

[Dan_]

Originally posted by Lauren
Neither of them.

For me there is no concept of whether he exists or not, and therefore atheism is acknowledging a concept of God, right - because thats what it is.
And so Atheism in itself is a religion.

That depends on what you define a religion to be,if it's that there is a belief system that there is a higher power/supernatural force then whilst Atheists acknowledge the concept of a God they don't actually believe there is one so where is the belief system in a higher power/supernatural to make it a religion?

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Originally posted by Lauren
...therefore atheism is acknowledging a concept of God

But thats just wrong. Atheism is acknowledging that there is no God, thats what atheism is.

My argument is: Why do they need to argue against God?
They have a doctrine of beliefs and a belief system of morals and values, that to me means they are a religion in their own right.
For me, there is no need to argue against something so conceptual and ambiguous.

EDIT: In response to Dan - I define religion as something which follows a doctrine of belief (Whether it be in the supernatural or not). And so Atheists follow this particular doctrine of not believing God - so I'd say thats a religion.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Originally posted by Lauren
...therefore atheism is acknowledging a concept of God

But thats just wrong. Atheism is acknowledging that there is no God, thats what atheism is.

My argument is: Why do they need to argue against God?
They have a doctrine of beliefs and a belief system of morals and values, that to me means they are a religion in their own right.
For me, there is no need to argue against something so conceptual and ambiguous.

EDIT: In response to Dan - I define religion as something which follows a doctrine of belief (Whether it be in the supernatural or not). And so Atheists follow this particular doctrine of not believing God - so I'd say thats a religion.

That really doesn't make any sense!

Atheists argue against the existence of God because they don't believe there is a God. They simply don't accept that any God exists, thats atheism. You can't say that by arguing a God doesn't exist, they are therefore acknowledging that a God exists. It's nonsensical!

As for whether atheism is a religion, thats a completely different question and has nothing to do with the issue of whether God exists. I'm guessing you're getting this "atheism is a religion" stuff from the program on Channel 4 late last year.

It seems to me that you are an atheist. Like I said above, someone who is an atheist still needs something to explain to themselves stuff like where did we come from, the nature of life etc, etc, you know the really big questions. And yes, you could say that the beliefs that an atheism has in explaining the world are similar to the beliefs that a religion would hold. But that is a completely different issue as to whether or not God exists.

[Tanser_Man]

God's ther biggest myth to be told to man, it's a load of codswallop.

Firstly, god isn't the creater.. who do you think invented everything, including god i don't think this 'thing' could create itself. This leads to another debate, how is anything created, likethe human body being so amazing, trees, gas, sperm.. etc.

Secondly, there have been more deaths caused by religion then anything that has ever happened. If god is so great and god is the creater, then why is he letting people fight over this and that concerning him/her/it. Why don't he suddenly appear and stop all bad in the world happening.... because he is ficticious!

Thirdly, whats the point in worrying and devoting yourself to a religion that you don't know is true?

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
That really doesn't make any sense!

Atheists argue against the existence of God because they don't believe there is a God. They simply don't accept that any God exists, thats atheism. You can't say that by arguing a God doesn't exist, they are therefore acknowledging that a God exists. It's nonsensical!

As for whether atheism is a religion, thats a completely different question and has nothing to do with the issue of whether God exists. I'm guessing you're getting this "atheism is a religion" stuff from the program on Channel 4 late last year.

It seems to me that you are an atheist. Like I said above, someone who is an atheist still needs something to explain to themselves stuff like where did we come from, the nature of life etc, etc, you know the really big questions. And yes, you could say that the beliefs that an atheism has in explaining the world are similar to the beliefs that a religion would hold. But that is a completely different issue as to whether or not God exists.

In brief:
1) No I didn't watch that programme on C4, and didn't get any idea's from it.
2) I didn't say atheists believe in God and don't at the same time. I'm saying they accept the concept of God, which they do to argue against the concept of God.
3) We aren't going to agree. My opinion makes sense to me and thats all that really matters.

[Slartibartfast]

Again your second point makes no sense to me, but as you say, as long as you're happy with your belief system that's really all that matters.

And if you get a chance to watch that Channel 4 show you should, i think it would be right up your street! Called The Trouble with Atheism. This is a blurb about it:

Far from being an antidote to religious fundamentalism, Rod Liddle sees 21st century atheism as sharing many characteristics with the very belief systems it opposes. As he argues in this authored film, those that turn to atheism for a rational, logical and moderate approach to modern problems are in for a shock; atheism too has its high priests, dogmas and beliefs as much as any fundamentalist religion.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by SiMoN!
he not someone that exist - he someone that you belive in

like santa lol

Except Santa does exist. :wink:

[Sticks]

If you argue that there is no God, you need to explain how we got from nothing to today.

The Big Bang requires nothing to give rise to something, a clear violation of the 1st law of Thermodynamics, so to get around this those that deny God redefine nothing - go figure.

You then have the problem of getting life started, this is called spontaneous generation or Abiogenesis, which time after time has been shown not to exist, yet evolutionists cling to it - go figure

After getting life started, you need to get one form to give rise to other forms, in violation of the law of biogenesis (Life comes from life and that of it's kind) You also need "good mutations" which have never been documented in nature to drive this forward. (Yes there is the issue of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, but this is caused by plasmids floating around and has nothing to do with evolution)

To deny God and say it all came bout by pure natural processes requires more faith than a theist.

[Lauren]

If you're arguing that there is a God, then you need to explain how one entity got everything from nothing?

[xSammyx]

I believe there is something out there, i am not religous however i believe that the world must have started somewhere at some point. I suppose i believe more to the big bang idea because to me it seems more realistic. :rolleyes:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
So you believe that women are lesser beings?

The Adam & Eve theory states that Eve was made from Adams spare rib and that she was an evil temptress :hugesmile: The mare!

That is not what is said in Genesis. The woman was to be a helpmate for Adam, and later Paul in the epistle to the Galatians equated women to be equal to men

Oh and By the way, the Genesis account does not mention an apple, it talks about a fruit from the tree of knowledge, it never said it was an apple.

[Legend]

Originally posted by xSammyx
I believe there is something out there, i am not religous however i believe that the world must have started somewhere at some point. I suppose i believe more to the big bang idea because to me it seems more realistic. :rolleyes:

That's my thoughts. I don't necceserily think there is a God who sits in the sky watching over us. I think it's in people's minds whether there is a God or not, i think people believe in God within your head and thinking that somebody is there 24/7 watching over you makes some people feel safe and more secure so they want to believe that there is a God, maybe not the God that created the world but the God who is there for you and helps you through things. It's just in your head and whether or not you believe in it or not. I personally think people do it for comfort and to feel less alone etc knowing someone is always there with you.

The Big Bang theory is what i believe in more than anything because as Sammy said, it just seems more realistic and it's more believeable.

[Feral]

Religion was created to control man - only have to look at all civilisations over the centuries and pre-history too. From the Incas to the Jedi's there is a leader and the followers.

We are all made of stardust, man!!!!!

We can then argue/debate about Darwin!!!!

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Feral_One
Religion was created to control man - only have to look at all civilisations over the centuries and pre-history too. From the Incas to the Jedi's there is a leader and the followers.

Ooh you Marxist :wink:

[Psylocke]

At funerals i believe in god,but once they finish i forget.

I do think somthings there tho,aslong as tom cruise isnt right im cool with any religion

[Diablo]

I'm an athiest..

I dont believe in any god..

[bonnie43uk]

Some very good points of view .. most of them made my brain hurt.

I still reckon this whole "God" thing is complete balony. As its been stated in here various times, i think religion is a tool used by the powerful to subjegate common man. George Bush and his cronies are doing it as we speak.. did'nt George Dubya even tell America God gave him his blessing to attack Iraq? ( or words to that effect). All you christians out there, would you have the same beliefs if you were born in a non christian country, and your parents were of a different faith. We get spoonfed this rubbish from birth. Christianity is only 2 thousand years old. Thats a fraction of time that humanity has existed. If you were born in Roman times, the chances are you'd belive in Zues. Nowadays we'd think that risable.
What does the bible say about stone age man .. or even dinosaurs?


Awww, who's seen those baby panda's on the news!!! Awwww!!!

.. i want one!

[abs]

Originally posted by bonnie43uk
Whats everyones views on God? .. does he/she/it exist?

I was spoonfed religion from birth, and its only now, nearly half a century later, i've come to the conclusion God does'nt exist.
I read some chapters from the bible before christmas ( mainly the Old Testament) .. and its absolute garbage.. God is a vengeful nasty vindictive piece of work.. read it and tell me different. God did'nt create the world, thats scientific fact, its billions of years old. If an outstretched arm is representative of the age of the planet, man has been here for the tiniest slice of a finger nail. We evolved, very very slowly. Our brains cannot even envisage the sheer age of this planet and the enormity of the universe.
If God gives you comfort I'm happy for you, but i for one, dont believe in him.

Thankyou Prof Richard Dawkins .. you've opened my eyes!

http://www.bakkah.net/articles/whyarewehere.htm

[Sunny_01]

Like I said previously I do believe in something - not sure what- but I feel that like someone else has said religion and god are 2 different things. I doubt any god would want things to be so dictitorial or so sexist as in some religions.

I am a catholic and was brought up being dragged to church every week which is something I have not donet o my kids as I feel people all have the right to choose their beliefs and not have them drummed into them.

The bulk of the Catholic belief system is built around making other people feel guilty which is something I choose not to want to be a part of as an adult. I believe in freedom, choices and respect and dont feel that many religions offer that in their "package"

[Chrizzle]

Yes I believe there is a God, or something similar. But its very confusing. I just don't think its some man in a white robe with a beard and sandals.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Chrizzle
Yes I believe there is a God, or something similar. But its very confusing. I just don't think its some man in a white robe with a beard and sandals.

Nothing wrong with white robes and sandals Chris lol

[Chrizzle]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
Originally posted by Chrizzle
Yes I believe there is a God, or something similar. But its very confusing. I just don't think its some man in a white robe with a beard and sandals.

Nothing wrong with white robes and sandals Chris lol
:laugh:

I'm not one to diss anyone elses fashion!:thumbs:

[sol]

Don't know :conf:

[Emilee]

Today at school i was discussing the evolution of Humans and how the world actually came about. There were some things and ideas that scare me. Such as:
*Our life and everyone elses could be just a really huge advanced video game, and some more developed life form (up there) are controlling everything we do and say.
* The earth is a huge carboard box with lots of little holes in, the sun is just a huge light buld, it turns out slowly on a night and the light from the outside shines through the little holes in the boxcreating the stars????? Ok that one was stupid but alot of waht we were talking about was really quite logical.

*Another idea: The earth was created through a giant explosion of the sun, and all the planets were blown up parts of the sun, then they all got caught up the orbit and they gradually developed. (Still not sure how animals and humans were formed though.) :puzzled:

Then we moved onto death and what happens. We came to the conclusion if you do not beleive in after life. Thats it.

:conf:

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by Sticks
If you argue that there is no God, you need to explain how we got from nothing to today.

The Big Bang requires nothing to give rise to something, a clear violation of the 1st law of Thermodynamics, so to get around this those that deny God redefine nothing - go figure.

You then have the problem of getting life started, this is called spontaneous generation or Abiogenesis, which time after time has been shown not to exist, yet evolutionists cling to it - go figure

After getting life started, you need to get one form to give rise to other forms, in violation of the law of biogenesis (Life comes from life and that of it's kind) You also need "good mutations" which have never been documented in nature to drive this forward. (Yes there is the issue of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, but this is caused by plasmids floating around and has nothing to do with evolution)

To deny God and say it all came bout by pure natural processes requires more faith than a theist.

But how do we know the big bang actually happened, it's all well and good relying on scientists, but how do they know for sure... they don't and there is no sufficient evidence other then guess work to back there theories. There are many things that just don't stack up! For every theorie theres it's downfall.

I just don't see how anybody can be adament there is a god! Why waste your life preaching and following someones rules, when you don't know if they are truthful or made up by some average joe all them years ago.

I am a believer in the spirit world and life after death but in no way do i see us being controlled by the messiah, the be all and end all we know as god. I believe there is something greater and even more mind blowing then simply a god.

Religion is a very easy way of looking at things, with very naive beliefs and i'm not one to tag along simply on someones elses viewpoint. We will never know for sure untill we die, and unless there's a way of bringing people back from the dead... we will never be able to answer that question.

Heyyyyyy i want a reply!!! :rolleyes:

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Emilee
Today at school i was discussing the evolution of Humans and how the world actually came about. There were some things and ideas that scare me. Such as:
*Our life and everyone elses could be just a really huge advanced video game, and some more developed life form (up there) are controlling everything we do and say.
* The earth is a huge carboard box with lots of little holes in, the sun is just a huge light buld, it turns out slowly on a night and the light from the outside shines through the little holes in the boxcreating the stars????? Ok that one was stupid but alot of waht we were talking about was really quite logical.

*Another idea: The earth was created through a giant explosion of the sun, and all the planets were blown up parts of the sun, then they all got caught up the orbit and they gradually developed. (Still not sure how animals and humans were formed though.) :puzzled:

Then we moved onto death and what happens. We came to the conclusion if you do not beleive in after life. Thats it.

:conf:

Animals and humans formed from bacteria.

[Diablo]

I dont beleive in god and I dont have an explanation about how nothing became something..

but just because I cant explain it, that doesn't mean that there must be a god....

[Emilee]

Animals and humans formed from bacteria.

Really???? Never knew that! Thats amazing!
Thanks xxx. It makes more sense now.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Emilee
Animals and humans formed from bacteria.

Really???? Never knew that! Thats amazing!
Thanks xxx. It makes more sense now.

Thats what the theory states. I'm really bad with science so I don't know how credible it is or anything.
But it's perfectly realistic for life form to be created from bacteria. :spin2:

[Emilee]

I supposed, i mean bacteria spreads and grows so it is a totally realistic idea. But i dont understand how bacteria can for a brain, heart, lungs, etc. Sems a lil bit far fetched.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Emilee
I supposed, i mean bacteria spreads and grows so it is a totally realistic idea. But i dont understand how bacteria can for a brain, heart, lungs, etc. Sems a lil bit far fetched.

Multiplying and mutating DNA sequences (ACTG) I think can cause that.

[Emilee]

WOW! This is all interesting stuff.
The fact i don't undertsnad science Sucks a bit though. LOL
But i sort of undertsnad what you mean, So Humans and animals mutated (is that the right word?) from bacteria and behold! - here is the populated earth! absolutley extraordinary.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Emilee
WOW! This is all interesting stuff.
The fact i don't undertsnad science Sucks a bit though. LOL
But i sort of undertsnad what you mean, So Humans and animals mutated (is that the right word?) from bacteria and behold! - here is the populated earth! absolutley extraordinary.

I think thats what I mean. LMAO, I'm really bad at science.

So DNA from bacteria can mutate (thus causing frame shift). This changes the tertiary structure of the protein and so the active site can no longer ... do something. :conf: I've totally confused myself haha!

Any scientists in here? :tongue:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Emilee
Animals and humans formed from bacteria.

Really???? Never knew that! Thats amazing!
Thanks xxx. It makes more sense now.

This is not what evolution teaches. Ask any microbiologist and they will inform you that bacteria are complex organisms in their own right.

It is more accurate to say that all known Phyla have a common ancestor, assuming you go along with Biopoesis or Chemical Evolution, where chemicals and lightning create the first single celled organism.

The only problem with that scenario is that all attempts to create life have failed. Even the experiments of Doctor Uray and Miller in the 1950's where they ran an electrical spark through a number of simple gasses, like methane and amonia. All they got were amino acids in a trap. (In nature there are no convenient traps as it is an open system)

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Emilee
Animals and humans formed from bacteria.

Really???? Never knew that! Thats amazing!
Thanks xxx. It makes more sense now.

This is not what evolution teaches. Ask any microbiologist and they will inform you that bacteria are complex organisms in their own right.

It is more accurate to say that all known Phyla have a common ancestor, assuming you go along with Biopoesis or Chemical Evolution, where chemicals and lightning create the first single celled organism.

The only problem with that scenario is that all attempts to create life have failed. Even the experiments of Doctor Uray and Miller in the 1950's where they ran an electrical spark through a number of simple gasses, like methane and amonia. All they got were amino acids in a trap. (In nature there are no convenient traps as it is an open system)

Yet no attempt could create quite the atmosphere of the universe.
Henceforth the results from this experiment aren't quite valid.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Emilee
WOW! This is all interesting stuff.
The fact i don't undertsnad science Sucks a bit though. LOL
But i sort of undertsnad what you mean, So Humans and animals mutated (is that the right word?) from bacteria and behold! - here is the populated earth! absolutley extraordinary.

I think thats what I mean. LMAO, I'm really bad at science.

So DNA from bacteria can mutate (thus causing frame shift). This changes the tertiary structure of the protein and so the active site can no longer ... do something. :conf: I've totally confused myself haha!

Any scientists in here? :tongue:

How about visiting this site (http://www.apologeticspress.org) as it has information about evolution.

The correct term would be evolved from the original single celled organism, repeat bacteria are already complex organisms.

My scientific discipline was physics, however here goes

Deoxyribonucleic acid stores information based on arrangements of many of the four different types amino acids in a long double helix. The amino acids are, Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine.

DNA is a molecule that replicates, and in order to do this require s ribonucleic acid to create the copies. Sometimes in this copying a mistake occurs, sort of like when you are asked to hand copy a text from a book with fine print. These mistakes are what we call mutations.

All this is goes on in the nucleus of the cell, be it plant or annimal.

For more information on DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)

Now scale this up to an animal say, a mutation affects how the new animal turns out, and can impact on its chance of surviving to reproduce. Now there are three types of mutation, harmful, neutral and beneficial. Harmful mutations will mean that natural selection will remove that animal from the gene pool. Neutral mutations do nothing and "benficial" mutations will mean that the animal will survive to reporoduce and pass on the beneficial gene to another generation. So the theory goes.

The fly in the ointment is that we do not document good mutations in nature, only the harmful ones. Now there is the argument that bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a good example of good mutations, but this is caused by plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids) and is nothing to do with mutations.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Emilee
WOW! This is all interesting stuff.
The fact i don't undertsnad science Sucks a bit though. LOL
But i sort of undertsnad what you mean, So Humans and animals mutated (is that the right word?) from bacteria and behold! - here is the populated earth! absolutley extraordinary.

I think thats what I mean. LMAO, I'm really bad at science.

So DNA from bacteria can mutate (thus causing frame shift). This changes the tertiary structure of the protein and so the active site can no longer ... do something. :conf: I've totally confused myself haha!

Any scientists in here? :tongue:

How about visiting this site (http://www.apologeticspress.org) as it has information about evolution.

The correct term would be evolved from the original single celled organism, repeat bacteria are already complex organisms.

My scientific discipline was physics, however here goes

Deoxyribonucleic acid stores information based on arrangements of many of the four different types amino acids in a long double helix. The amino acids are, Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine.

DNA is a molecule that replicates, and in order to do this require s ribonucleic acid to create the copies. Sometimes in this copying a mistake occurs, sort of like when you are asked to hand copy a text from a book with fine print. These mistakes are what we call mutations.

All this is goes on in the nucleus of the cell, be it plant or annimal.

For more information on DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)

Now scale this up to an animal say, a mutation affects how the new animal turns out, and can impact on its chance of surviving to reproduce. Now there are three types of mutation, harmful, neutral and beneficial. Harmful mutations will mean that natural selection will remove that animal from the gene pool. Neutral mutations do nothing and "benficial" mutations will mean that the animal will survive to reporoduce and pass on the beneficial gene to another generation. So the theory goes.

The fly in the ointment is that we do not document good mutations in nature, only the harmful ones. Now there is the argument that bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a good example of good mutations, but this is caused by plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids) and is nothing to do with mutations.

Ah yeah, thanks for the links. I did all about that when I did my Biology A Level - I just lost a lot of it and needed reminding.

[Sophii3x]

Hmm..

There is no evidence whatsoever that God existed or created this world.
It's like a huge mystery

But I suppose I do belive in God
Because I was christened as a baby
And went to church every Sunday until about a year ago

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
And went to church every Sunday until about a year ago

So why did you stop going?

Was this Anglican or Catholic?

[Sophii3x]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sophii3x
And went to church every Sunday until about a year ago

So why did you stop going?

Was this Anglican or Catholic?

It's a methodist church

It just got a bit boring for me, plus some stuck up girl in sunday school was mean to me

[Feral]

Originally posted by Sticks


The correct term would be evolved from the original single celled organism, repeat bacteria are already complex organisms.

My scientific discipline was physics, however here goes

Deoxyribonucleic acid stores information based on arrangements of many of the four different types amino acids in a long double helix. The amino acids are, Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine.

DNA is a molecule that replicates, and in order to do this require s ribonucleic acid to create the copies. Sometimes in this copying a mistake occurs, sort of like when you are asked to hand copy a text from a book with fine print. These mistakes are what we call mutations.

All this is goes on in the nucleus of the cell, be it plant or annimal.

For more information on DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)

Now scale this up to an animal say, a mutation affects how the new animal turns out, and can impact on its chance of surviving to reproduce. Now there are three types of mutation, harmful, neutral and beneficial. Harmful mutations will mean that natural selection will remove that animal from the gene pool. Neutral mutations do nothing and "benficial" mutations will mean that the animal will survive to reporoduce and pass on the beneficial gene to another generation. So the theory goes.

The fly in the ointment is that we do not document good mutations in nature, only the harmful ones. Now there is the argument that bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a good example of good mutations, but this is caused by plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids) and is nothing to do with mutations.



I understood everything till the plasmids bit!!!!! Then my mutated brain went bang!!!!

[xGemmax]

I honestly dont have a clue. I used to go to church and believe in him, but i dont go anymore and im undecided. It seems impossible that he could..but when i think about it i think someone must have created the world! So im totally confused :cloud:

[ttw]

I do not believe in god.

But religion is something that can be argued until both parties are blue in the face and yet still no conclusion will be reached.

What everyone believes is realistically an opinion. Certain opinions may be backed up by certain theories which may be convincing but still are not, like most things 100% valid.

There are so many different ways of looking at god and why he may or may not exist that I don't even know where to start by explaining why I do not.

One thing I really don't understand is, if god is so great and god is love, how someone who say spends there whole life doing something worth-while, always trying to help those in need, generally caring for the world they live in, yet if they don't believe in god they will still go to hell?

Yet someone who lives their life selfishly has more of a chance of going to heaven as they believe in him.

This to me sound doesn't sound like a loving god, this sounds like a jealous god, a god who wants everyone to do as he says and as he wants because he is on some major power-trip.

I respect everyones religions and beliefs, and there is some good that comes out of religion , it gives some people hope in times of need, gives people comfort when they have lost someone , puts people on the right track and helps them lead a better life or help others.

But it also creates a lot of evil and suffering.

[bonnie43uk]

whoopie .. another god non believer .. chalk it up! we're winning 13 v 11 in the poll!!!

yeah, i am in agreement with you ttw, ..the stuff about god in the old testament sends chills down your spine .. he comes across as an egotistical heartless nasty piece of work.

.. a bit like my boss at work.

[Bells]

I’ve had lots of ups and downs in terms of belief, times of really believing in God, times of ignoring the concept completely. I’ve always believed in the concept however, which is why I would say that I was previously agnostic. Now however I am truly confident that there is in fact a God. Think about it. We are powerless to things like death, natural disasters, all the amazing natural things in the world. Scientific occurrences that happen, even such as a baby being born and things happening amongst wildlife should open our eyes and make us realise that there are things completely out of our control, things that have been done without the need for mankind and therefore must have appeared from somewhere and by some sort of higher power, surely. I really could go on about this subject for hours. And one other fascinating thing to consider – an atom. It comprises of a centre sphere/force/attraction (the nucleus) and then surrounded in orbits by the electrons. And the atom is the smallest known particle, and is something that cannot be broken down any further in the world as we know it today. Does the structure and pattern remind you of anything else in our world? And then of anything else…? And then of anything else…?

[Lauren]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
I’ve had lots of ups and downs in terms of belief, times of really believing in God, times of ignoring the concept completely. I’ve always believed in the concept however, which is why I would say that I was previously agnostic. Now however I am truly confident that there is in fact a God. Think about it. We are powerless to things like death, natural disasters, all the amazing natural things in the world. Scientific occurrences that happen, even such as a baby being born and things happening amongst wildlife should open our eyes and make us realise that there are things completely out of our control, things that have been done without the need for mankind and therefore must have appeared from somewhere and by some sort of higher power, surely. I really could go on about this subject for hours. And one other fascinating thing to consider – an atom. It comprises of a centre sphere/force/attraction (the nucleus) and then surrounded in orbits by the electrons. And the atom is the smallest known particle, and is something that cannot be broken down any further in the world as we know it today. Does the structure and pattern remind you of anything else in our world? And then of anything else…? And then of anything else…?

Last sentences pretty much sum it up.
The World is too much of a complex thing to speculate.

[Bells]

It really is. I find it fascinating.
I just feel as if the whole universe has been created as some sort of pretty pattern made by something beyond our comprehension, and we happen to live in it.
And our minds just aren't capable of comprehending it all. It's pretty much similar to the fact that the human mind can't understand the concept of nothingness (e.g. in space)... we feel as if it must be contained within something, it's hard to accept that it's just branches out into... nothing. Just space!

It truly is amazing, but for me personally I find my best option is to just remain in awe by it and not hurt my brain by trying to understand concepts that we perhaps won't know about until after death. You can search for extracts in holy books, and I noticed that some of them contain scientific facts which were only found out recently – obviously the people of hundreds and thousands of years ago would have had no idea! It’s little clues like these which should get people thinking and believing. It’s not like God’s just going to appear at your house one day and say, ‘I’m God. Believe in me.’ You have to search for the facts yourself, find the truth yourself, and it’s people like these who benefit from the peace within as a result. None of my family are really religious, and to be quite honest I’ve never been either, but discussing this in more depth has made me realise that I should be more accepting. This is why at this time in my life I do believe in God and trust all the hints and clues we do have on this world to keep us going.

[easypeasy]

science is increasingly begining to prove there is a force that binds everything together, i dont believe in a bearded old white bloke sat on a cloud but i do believe everything is operating to an intelligent beings masterplan.
Its proven our thoughts can influence the physical realm around us. water can be physically changed by human emotion.
http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/
Im also a fan of the book "the celestine prophecy" which has some very good insights into life and the documtory "what the bleep do we know" which uses quantum mechanics to show science and "god" can co-exist..

[Bells]

Haha, yeah. Fact is though - nobody mentioned God as a bearded old bloke?
I used to think that as a child though, it must be the way the concept's generally represented.
I just think of Him as being...a power, a force. That is God. It's beyond comprehension for the human mind in my view. We should aim to understand what we can and deduce conclusions from what evidence we have.
That's a really interesting link you posted as well easypeasy!

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
Haha, yeah. Fact is though - nobody mentioned God as a bearded old bloke?
I used to think that as a child though, it must be the way the concept's generally represented.
I just think of Him as being...a power, a force. That is God. It's beyond comprehension for the human mind in my view. We should aim to understand what we can and deduce conclusions from what evidence we have.
That's a really interesting link you posted as well easypeasy! glad you like it ice maiden, guess its kind of appropriate to your username! hehe.
Ive remembered there is a childrens version of the book available for free download here....
http://www.thank-water.net/picture-book/Picture%20Book.pdf
and its got some stunning and very thought provoking pics in it, I reccomend everybody to download it.
It shows we are connected to the universe and our thoughts can alter it far more than we can begin to realise.

[ttw]

I have a question for believers...

Why didn't the tigers eat the the rest of the animals on noah's ark?

And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?

Does that mean we are all mentally retarded, deformed inbreds??

And to me it just doesn't make sense, people say "this world is too amazing , god must have created it " but I have seen cookery books with more complex instructions then 'and god said let their be light, and it was so'(i know that may not be exact but it's something like that)

(I know it may sound like I am taking the piss but I am truley not I do respect that other people may be religious)

[Sophii3x]

Originally posted by ttw
And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?


That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored:

[Emilee]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Originally posted by ttw
And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?


That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored:

OMG! Thats right! So does that mean we are all brothers and sisters? (cant get my head round the scale of this).

[Sophii3x]

Originally posted by Emilee
Originally posted by Sophii3x
Originally posted by ttw
And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?


That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored:

OMG! Thats right! So does that mean we are all brothers and sisters? (cant get my head round the scale of this).

Me neither
And if Adam & Eve were white how are there mixed races

Hmm this has got me thinking:laugh:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by ttw
I have a question for believers...

Why didn't the tigers eat the the rest of the animals on noah's ark?

And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?



Two questions here

Item 1)
Meat eating is not authorised for people until after the flood waters have receded (See Genesis 9:3) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:3;&version=31;)

Item 2)
This one is usually phrased as where did Cain get his wife. Well according to the Bible, Adam and Eve had other Sons and Daughters (Genesis 5:4) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%205:4;&version=31;) and as Eve would be the mother of all living (Genesis 3:20) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=20&version=31&context=verse) so Cain married his sister.

Now I have already seen the revulsion by Sophii3x at this, because this is technically incest.

Question, why is incest wrong

Simply because it will lock in genetic abnormalities. But roll time back to the Garden of Eden, when everything was perfect before the fall and then roll slightly forward. At that time there would have been little genetic mutations in the gene pool, so it would be perfectly safe for Cain to marry his sister.

As evidence that it was a while before incest would become a biological issue can be seen from this incident (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019:30-38%20;&version=31;), whilst not sanctioned, there was nothing wrong with the children who were born.

Of course later as more mutations crept in, the rules were changed to how it is to day with a prohibition on incest.

[ttw]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by ttw
I have a question for believers...

Why didn't the tigers eat the the rest of the animals on noah's ark?

And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?



Two questions here

Item 1)
Meat eating is not authorised for people until after the flood waters have receded (See Genesis 9:3) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:3;&version=31;)



I meant why didn't like, the lions eat the zebras??

EDIT: Thanks for the whole "incest" explanation (although my reasons for not believing go abit deeper than that lol)

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Originally posted by ttw
And if adam and eve were the first ever people, and they had kids, and their kids? had kids?


That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored: thats nothing, if you believe Darwins "theory of evolution" you believe that early man/woman had sex with chimps.........
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/chimp-study-shakes-human-family-tree/2006/05/17/1147545394809.html

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Me neither
And if Adam & Eve were white how are there mixed races

Hmm this has got me thinking:laugh:

OK

Item 3

A full treatment of this is done here (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/326)

Imagine a grid of genes, some dominant and some recessive, which control melanin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin) in the skin

In humans, production of the skin coloring agent melanin is controlled by two pairs of genes. We can designate them Aa and Bb, the capital letters representing dominant genes and the small letters recessive genes. A and B, being dominant, produce melanin very well; being recessive, a and b produce melanin to a lesser degree.

so we have

http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/skin.jpg

If Adam and Eve both had been aabb, they could have had only children that were aabb, that being the lightest coloration possible. Then, the world would contain no other groupings. But it does. So, this option also is ruled out by a process of elimination.

The real question is this: Is there a mechanism by which the racial characteristics which we see today could have originated with one human couple—in the short, few thousand year or so history of the Earth?

The answer is a resounding yes! If Adam and Eve had been “heterozygous” (AaBb; two dominant, two recessive genes), they would have been middle-brown in color. And, from them—in one generation—racial differences could have occurred quite easily.

I hope that clears this up

[Sticks]

Originally posted by easypeasy
That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored: thats nothing, if you believe Darwins "theory of evolution" you believe that early man/woman had sex with chimps......... [/quote]


Please

Evolution does not teach that we came from chimps or apes, just that humans chimps and apes come from a common ancestor.

Sexual reproduction would occur only between members of the same species, with the changes occuring due to mutations and those mutations being locked in due to natural selection. The trouble is we have never documented in nature a beneficial mutation. All the mutations we see are harmful and natural selection selects against them.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by easypeasy
That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored: thats nothing, if you believe Darwins "theory of evolution" you believe that early man/woman had sex with chimps.........


Please

Evolution does not teach that we came from chimps or apes, just that humans chimps and apes come from a common ancestor.

Sexual reproduction would occur only between members of the same species, with the changes occuring due to mutations and those mutations being locked in due to natural selection. The trouble is we have never documented in nature a beneficial mutation. All the mutations we see are harmful and natural selection selects against them. [/quote]

What about when moths changed their colours after the industrial era? When they became darker to mesh with the dark tree's to hide from predators. Was this caused by a mutation?

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by easypeasy
That would mean that brothers and sisters would have had sex with each other. Ew:bored: thats nothing, if you believe Darwins "theory of evolution" you believe that early man/woman had sex with chimps.........


Please

Evolution does not teach that we came from chimps or apes, just that humans chimps and apes come from a common ancestor.

Sexual reproduction would occur only between members of the same species, with the changes occuring due to mutations and those mutations being locked in due to natural selection. The trouble is we have never documented in nature a beneficial mutation. All the mutations we see are harmful and natural selection selects against them. [/quote]
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060518075823.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2006/05/18/humans_chimps_may_have_bred_after_split/
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/chimp-study-shakes-human-family-tree/2006/05/17/1147545394809.htm
1.2 million years of inter-species sex, while roughly 1% of those encouters resulting in fertile offspring.......that should have had some influence on human evolution. Do you really think a caveman had a strict code of morality?l

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren

What about when moths changed their colours after the industrial era? When they became darker to mesh with the dark tree's to hide from predators. Was this caused by a mutation?

This is of course the Peppered Moth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth) and the wikipedia article goes into this in more depths, but in summary

There are white moths and dark moths and in between moths. All that changed was the ratios between the populations. There was no mutation what so ever and yet it is still used as an example of Evolution, when it is nothing of the sort.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Lauren

What about when moths changed their colours after the industrial era? When they became darker to mesh with the dark tree's to hide from predators. Was this caused by a mutation?

This is of course the Peppered Moth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth) and the wikipedia article goes into this in more depths, but in summary

There are white moths and dark moths and in between moths. All that changed was the ratios between the populations. There was no mutation what so ever and yet it is still used as an example of Evolution, when it is nothing of the sort.

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for the links, just wanted to clear this up.
(Although in theory that then means it's evidence for survival of the fittest, also outlined in Darwin's Evolutionary Theory).

And are we including survival of the sexiest in this? Because mutations have occurred (As far as I know) that is good evidence towards survival of the sexiest (E.g. Peacocks tail, although a hinderer in survival of fittest)

[Sticks]

Survival of the fittest is somewhat circular in reasoning.

It is not survival of the strongest, but of those creatures that fit most into their environment and can go on to pass their genes on in reproducing. We then define a creature as fittest if it has been able to reproduce.

[Bells]

Hundreds and thousands of years ago, yes brothers and sisters did in some cases get married and have relationships. I'm surprised people didn't know that - it was acceptable back then and of course in some cases considered more respectable because you were keeping genes within your own family. Of course, when I say this was a long time ago, I do mean a long time ago so it wouldn't affect the extent of the family tree people nowadays tend to have - it'd have been much longer before then!

As for why people have different coloured skin...different parts of the world have different climates and sun intensities. After a certain civilisation lives in a part of a world where it's sunny constantly, their skin would as a result turn darker. And then these genes would pass on to children, because the people who would survive to the age to have children would be the ones who have darker skin since they are coping better in the weather conditions as opposed to developing skin problems, perhaps cancers etc. We studied this in Biology last year, also looking at other similar principles e.g. fur colour on animals. So really, we're all the same but as different colonies have moved to different parts of the world, they in turn formed adaptations to suit where they lived. It's not like a random Chinese person appeared in China and so on - at least that's not what we're led to believe; it's a gradual thing in terms of human characteristics, and it makes a lot more sense that way!

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by Sticks
Survival of the fittest is somewhat circular in reasoning.

It is not survival of the strongest, but of those creatures that fit most into their environment and can go on to pass their genes on in reproducing. We then define a creature as fittest if it has been able to reproduce.

Sticks do you... Admin deleted: doesn't add anything to the debate.

[James]

Originally posted by Sticks
in the short, few thousand year or so history of the Earth?


The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Scientists have estimated that from measuring the radioactive half-life of minerals and astronomical evidence.

If you accept that it seems logical to me that evolution is right - I mean you wouldn't expect everything to stay the same over hundreds of millions of years.

[Sticks]

Oops, didn't see that when copying and pasting. When I saw that original presentation in Scotland, the preface about that grid was that the argument held if you believed in Adam and Eve or Mr and Mrs Austrolopithicus.

Anyhue wrt dating using radiometric rock methods, how it works and how they have to make a number of assumptions.

If you get radioactive isotope, it is constantly decaying from the parent element to another element or isotope, called the daughter element. Over a certain time, half of the parent element decays into daughter element plus otherdecay products. This is called the half life, and with each halflife, the amount of parent element is halved.

These decay rates are worked out in the laboratory. So what you do is get your rock in which the fossil is found, (note you can not date the exact fossil only the rock in which it is found), and you work out the ratios of parent element to daughter element and using horrendous math you get a date.

So what are these assumptions

1) The clock hands must be set to zero at the start.
Hang on how do we know that there was not daughter elements already presnt at time = zero - sorry!

2) The clock must be a closed system
But what about the possibility of water leaching things in or out, what about parent or daughter elements migrating as it is known that they can - What if the fossil it self has migrated - sorry!

3) the Rate of the clock (The half life) is constant


Evolutionist Frederic B. Jueneman wrote:
The age of our globe is presently thought to be some 4.5
billion years, based on radiodecay rates of uranium and
thorium. Such “confirmation” may be short-lived, as nature
is not to be discovered quite so easily. There has been
in recent years the horrible realization that radiodecay rates
are not as constant as previously thought, nor are theyimmune
to environmental influences.
And this could mean that the atomic clocks are reset during
some global disaster, and events which brought the Mesozoic
to a closemaynot be 65 million years ago but, rather,
within the age and memory of man .
Jueneman, Frederic B. (1982), Industrial Research and Development, June, p. 21.


This is treated here more fully (http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/yng-old.pdf)


Back in the 1980's there was an erruption at Mount St Helen's. Ten years after those new rocks were formed in that erruption, they were giving dates as if they were thousands of years old.

Radio metric Rock dating has been shown to be unreliable and prone to giving false dates

This article contains other methods for dating a Young Earth (http://www.icr.org/article/64/)

[ThaGazBoi]

I dont believe in God, however, I do think there is something out there.

[ttw]

ooh, I got a good little debate going with the adam and eve thing lol.

No one has answered my other question tho!

Why didn't the lions eat the zebras in noah's ark?????

[Slartibartfast]

LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

[James]

Originally posted by Sticks

This is treated here more fully (http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/yng-old.pdf)

This article contains other methods for dating a Young Earth (http://www.icr.org/article/64/)

I don't think those are credible sources - I checked the author of the second article's credentials and his PhD was in hydraulics, not anything to do with the subject.

The first article is from a religious website and the author appears not to even hold a science degree. The article seems to be made up of bits and pieces of stuff that could probably be taken apart quite easily by anyone who knows the subject.

Now when I was at university I was taught to always cite reliable sources - primary research.

Originally posted by ttw
Why didn't the lions eat the zebras in noah's ark?????

Here's another question about Noah's Ark. How big must the Ark have been to hold an example of every lifeform on the planet?

There are millions of different species on the Earth. It would have needed laboratories to hold all the single-celled organisms and fungi and stuff like that.

[ttw]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

Err, because they don't just run wild do they, otherwise I am sure they would.

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by ttw
ooh, I got a good little debate going with the adam and eve thing lol.

No one has answered my other question tho!

Why didn't the lions eat the zebras in noah's ark?????

Was it because the parrots eat em all?

[ttw]

Another thing, the whole point of the flood was to get rid of all the wicked people living on earth...

If god is so powerful, why make noah go to all that trouble, why not just make all wicked people drop down dead or each one get zapped by lightning, the flood just seems abit extra... seeing as it would have ruined houses and nature (like trees and stuff)

[ttw]

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Originally posted by ttw
ooh, I got a good little debate going with the adam and eve thing lol.

No one has answered my other question tho!

Why didn't the lions eat the zebras in noah's ark?????

Was it because the parrots eat em all?

lol.

did they?

[Sticks]

This related article (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1991) is from someone I have met, and who was a food Microbiologist and therefore was a practising scientist.

The ealier article did give references which could be checked, so why is it less reliable?

Wrt the ark, if you measure it out, it was quite huge, and its ratios off HxLxW are the perfect ratios for a boat built for sea worthyness. These ratios were borrowed in WWII for an American supply ship nicknamed the "Ugly Duckling". The question is, how did the writer know these ratios?

Any hue, who said the animals in the ark had to be fully grown adults?

[ttw]

Originally posted by Sticks


Any hue, who said the animals in the ark had to be fully grown adults?


They still need to eat.

[Sticks]

But how many two year old todlers can wolf down a massive fry up cooked for a 15 stone he-man?

Plus I did mention that meat eating may have come in after the flood, given Genesis 9:3

[ttw]

Originally posted by Sticks
But how many two year old todlers can wolf down a massive fry up cooked for a 15 stone he-man?

Plus I did mention that meat eating may have come in after the flood, given Genesis 9:3

So before the flood lions ate plants??

Okay, so did they eat the mouses or rabbits then?

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

Err, because they don't just run wild do they, otherwise I am sure they would.

You've answered your own question there! The animals didn't just run wild on the ark either. (Genesis 6:14, the animals had different rooms/cubicles to live in)

Take a look at this for more info on the detail of the ark:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2655

[ttw]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

Err, because they don't just run wild do they, otherwise I am sure they would.

You've answered your own question there! The animals didn't just run wild on the ark either. (Genesis 6:14, the animals had different rooms/cubicles to live in)

Take a look at this for more info on the detail of the ark:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2655

Thanks!!!

[Tanser_Man]

Good to read everyones opionions but i'm still sticking to my thoughts, religion is a farce and the biggest load of lies to be written down.

If everyone in the world was an atheist then the world would be a safer place, but now you have all these idiots basically saying they have to kill for there religion, based on what? A book? Fictional facts? Please....

People have to get there priorities sorted, it's a bit sad to be clinging onto something you have no clue about untill your actually deceased.

Sheep will follow shepherd's.

[James]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

Err, because they don't just run wild do they, otherwise I am sure they would.

You've answered your own question there! The animals didn't just run wild on the ark either. (Genesis 6:14, the animals had different rooms/cubicles to live in)

Take a look at this for more info on the detail of the ark:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2655

It's just bonkers. :banana: You've got to admit it's bonkers to take that literally. As crazy as this guy --> :banana:

[ttw]

Originally posted by James
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by Slartibartfast
LOL, I'll answer your question with another question to you (bad etiquette in debates, I know!!)

What don't all the lions at the zoo eat the zebras?

Err, because they don't just run wild do they, otherwise I am sure they would.

You've answered your own question there! The animals didn't just run wild on the ark either. (Genesis 6:14, the animals had different rooms/cubicles to live in)

Take a look at this for more info on the detail of the ark:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2655

It's just bonkers. :banana: You've got to admit it's bonkers to take that literally. As crazy as this guy --> :banana:

It must of stunk down there, if I was one of those animals I woulda gone stark raving bonkers. lol

[bonnie43uk]

i cannot believe there are some highly intelligent people in here , who are actually purporting that Noah's Ark existed!!!!!

.. did they manage to get all the various huge species of dinosaurs on board.
Have you been to the Natual History museum? .. we are talking serious sized creatures. .. um, or did the dinosaurs come AFTER man?

[ttw]

Originally posted by bonnie43uk
i cannot believe there are some highly intelligent people in here , who are actually purporting that Noah's Ark existed!!!!!

.. did they manage to get all the various huge species of dinosaurs on board.
Have you been to the Natual History museum? .. we are talking serious sized creatures. .. um, or did the dinosaurs come AFTER man?

Well the bible states that certain "beasts" were created before man, some believers say that these could have been dinasours, and as the 7 days are claimed not to stand literally for "a day" as we now know it to be, dinasours existed for however many years, then were extinct then man was created.....:rolleyes:

[The_Hitman]

The animals went in 2 by 2 hurrah! hurrah!
The animals went in 2 by 2 hurrah! hurrah!
The animals went in 2 by 2
The T Rex and the Kangaroo
And they all went into ark
For to get out of the rain.

I think youll find that is sufficient proof.

[ttw]

Originally posted by The_Hitman
The animals went in 2 by 2 hurrah! hurrah!
The animals went in 2 by 2 hurrah! hurrah!
The animals went in 2 by 2
The T Rex and the Kangaroo
And they all went into ark
For to get out of the rain.

I think youll find that is sufficient proof.

How could anyone argue against that!

[bonnie43uk]

Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by bonnie43uk
i cannot believe there are some highly intelligent people in here , who are actually purporting that Noah's Ark existed!!!!!

.. did they manage to get all the various huge species of dinosaurs on board.
Have you been to the Natual History museum? .. we are talking serious sized creatures. .. um, or did the dinosaurs come AFTER man?

Well the bible states that certain "beasts" were created before man, some believers say that these could have been dinasours, and as the 7 days are claimed not to stand literally for "a day" as we now know it to be, dinasours existed for however many years, then were extinct then man was created.....:rolleyes:

Those damn christians have an answer for everything:joker:

Next they'll be telling us "The assumption of Mary" was fact.:thumbs:

[ttw]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
Hundreds and thousands of years ago, yes brothers and sisters did in some cases get married and have relationships. I'm surprised people didn't know that - it was acceptable back then and of course in some cases considered more respectable because you were keeping genes within your own family. Of course, when I say this was a long time ago, I do mean a long time ago so it wouldn't affect the extent of the family tree people nowadays tend to have - it'd have been much longer before then!



This may be true, But still.. have you ever read Genesis 19?!?

Just sick...

They should have age restrictions on reading the bible

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by bonnie43uk
Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by bonnie43uk
i cannot believe there are some highly intelligent people in here , who are actually purporting that Noah's Ark existed!!!!!

.. did they manage to get all the various huge species of dinosaurs on board.
Have you been to the Natual History museum? .. we are talking serious sized creatures. .. um, or did the dinosaurs come AFTER man?

Well the bible states that certain "beasts" were created before man, some believers say that these could have been dinasours, and as the 7 days are claimed not to stand literally for "a day" as we now know it to be, dinasours existed for however many years, then were extinct then man was created.....:rolleyes:

Those damn christians have an answer for everything:joker:

Next they'll be telling us "The assumption of Mary" was fact.:thumbs:

Hey! I hope you aren't refering to my name 'Christian'!

They will always have an answer because they believe they are right, even when everythings stacked against them.

[ttw]

I BELIEVE IN SANTA.... DON'T KNOCK IT, HE'S REAL.. HOW CAN U TELL ME HE AINT!!

[bonnie43uk]

Originally posted by ttw
I BELIEVE IN SANTA.... DON'T KNOCK IT, HE'S REAL.. HOW CAN U TELL ME HE AINT!!

he's more real than God ttw .. and i've actually SEEN him, ... in Debenhams grotto.

..AND , he gave me a colouring book.

i did ask god for a colouring book, but he snubbed me!

SANTA ROCKS:thumbs:

[ttw]

Originally posted by bonnie43uk
Originally posted by ttw
I BELIEVE IN SANTA.... DON'T KNOCK IT, HE'S REAL.. HOW CAN U TELL ME HE AINT!!

he's more real than God ttw .. and i've actually SEEN him, ... in Debenhams grotto.

..AND , he gave me a colouring book.

i did ask god for a colouring book, but he snubbed me!

SANTA ROCKS:thumbs:

Exactly, can't get more proof then that, I've seen him to, loads of times - I wrote to him and he wrote back to me, I put cookies and milk by the fireplace (not forgetting carrots for the reindeer) and guess what? the next day they were GONE, go on tell me he aint real now!

How many people can say they have seen god..... well?

[The_Hitman]

Your mum sees god everytime I take her to the church of love.

[Bells]

It's because believers believe you can't 'see' God; God is a presence, a spirit, a power. It's beyond comprehension as I think I described in some of my previous posts, but from what knowledge we do have many people feel it's sufficient to have full faith in God and in a religion or way of life of their choice.

[ttw]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
It's because believers believe you can't 'see' God; God is a presence, a spirit, a power. It's beyond comprehension as I think I described in some of my previous posts, but from what knowledge we do have many people feel it's sufficient to have full faith in God and in a religion or way of life of their choice.

How convenient that it is beyond comprehension.

[Bells]

Lol that's the point, the human mind finds it incapable to understand, like the concept of space. It's just that certain people choose to accept it based on other knowledge we have, whilst others don't.

[Sophii3x]

Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

Just lie like Danielle Lloyd would.

[ttw]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

Because god transported him there with his mind.

[Bells]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

A miracle was performed I think. Hundreds and thousands of years ago when God sent prophets to convey the message, according to holy books etc., many miracles were carried out. Some of them are the classic ones everyone knows of, e.g. Moses' parting of the sea, Jesus himself with the fish and so on. And then of course after the last prophet, life continued and started to become recorded as well, and these records are the records we have of history today.

[bonnie43uk]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

i think you'll find believers call this "The immaculate conception"

( also the name of a Madonna CD)

Its hard to get your head around it Sophii3x aint it.

So many questions ... so little answers!

[ttw]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
Lol that's the point, the human mind finds it incapable to understand, like the concept of space. It's just that certain people choose to accept it based on other knowledge we have, whilst others don't.

It is the same as believing in Santa... all children believe in him up until a certain age, if there were a book on Santa and society accepted Santa was real, there would be many many people that would continue to believe in Santa throughout adulthood.

Just wondering, how many people on here that are religious were brought up in religious families?

[Sophii3x]

But it's impossible for Mary to have a baby when she never had sex!

[ttw]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
But it's impossible for Mary to have a baby when she never had sex!

god is all powerful, he can do whatever he likes...

[Noopie]

I personally don't believe in God, because quite frankly I think something "up there" which "created" the world is ridiculous!

[Sticks]

OK

while I have access to a public terminal some misconceptions here

1) Dinosaurs - As I said before, who says they had to be adult creatures. They could have been juveniles and thus smaller. With ragards to the size of the ark, if you go by the actual dimensions, rather than the cartoon drawings, it was quite huge.

2) Days of Creation - Sorry, but the sentance structure in Genesis one saying "evening and morning" ties the Hebrew word Yom down to a literal 24 hour day. This is later confirmed in Exodous 20:11 When issuing the Sabbath commandment, that the SIX days of creation (not seven), were to set the pattern for the working week. God rested on the seventh remember.

3) Immaculate Conception is not a Biblical doctrine and was invented by the Roman Catholic Church. It does not refer to the birth of Jesus, but the birth of Mary, because those who devised it thought that Mary had to be with out the stain of original sin, (also a non scriptural teaching - see Ezekiel 18). Mary became pregnant due to the power of the Holy Spirit .

[bonnie43uk]

Sticks .. you seem like a highly intelligent individual .. i am aghast you actually believe in things like Noahs Ark.

Many religious people themselves dont take this story literally, its used as a metaphor. I am flabbergasted you are trying to justify its existance!!

If you happened to be born in ancient Egyptian times, the chances are you would strongly believe in Ra. Or in ancient Nordic times, you'd believe in The God Odin. Christianity is a mere 2 thousand years old. That is miniscule when compared with the existance of man ... and when you consider the actual age of the planet Earth itself , man pales into insignificance.
The Bible is full of writings that can be interpreted anyway you choose.
..i choose not to believe any of it!

As Jesus said on the sermon of the mount .. "Blessed are the cheesemakers"

somebody at the back of the crowd commented " ..whats so special about the cheesemakers"????

Her partner commented " Well , obviously, its not be to taken literally, it refers to any manufacturer of dairy products"!!!!


...here endeth the lesson of Brian!!!

[easypeasy]

the ark and stories of global devestation are common to many of earths living and long dead religions. read some Erich von Däniken books and fill in the gaps.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by easypeasy
the ark and stories of global devestation are common to many of earths living and long dead religions. read some Erich von Däniken books and fill in the gaps.

Please, Not Erich Von Däniken, he misrepresented a lot of archeaological evidence for this therory, and one item may have been forged.

[abs]

Noah's Ark pics...

http://www.fatwa-online.com/aboutislaam/0020101.htm

http://www.bakkah.net/articles/whyarewehere.htm

[Ella]

I don't believe in God, I don't believe in anything, IMO It's all a load of crap.

You die, you die, there's none of this heaven rubbish, you stay in the ground and you rot, simple as!

[abs]

Originally posted by Sticks
If you argue that there is no God, you need to explain how we got from nothing to today.

see. i think we can all agree that nothing cant make something! its common sense really...

[ttw]

Originally posted by abs
[quote]Originally posted by Sticks
If you argue that there is no God, you need to explain how we got from nothing to today.

If someone could explain how we got from nothing to today there would be no 'is there, isn't there' in the first place.

What I want to know, is if there is a god, how was he created?

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by ttw

What I want to know, is if there is a god, how was he created?



Maybe God has a God, and that God has a God. I suppose it depends on how much of our solar system God is supposed to be 'in charge' of. Hmmm......the infinity of space......do we really want to get into that?

Interesting fact: If an infinite amount of monkeys were given an infinite amount of typewriters and an infinite amount of time, according to the law of probability, they would eventually come up with the entire works of William Shakespeare.

Incidentally, if you gave one monkey one typewriter for five minutes, it would definitely write a better news article than Carole Malone.

[Emilee]

I am !Seriously! Doubting my beleifs now! Everything has made me think... Why would there be a God.. if the world was created by the big bang and the gas made from that accumulated into the stars and the earth how it is now. Then Humans formed from Bacteria. Where does God, Jesus and Adam and Eve come into any of this!

I am really confused at the moment, i dont know what to believe anymore.

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by Emilee
I am !Seriously! Doubting my beleifs now! Everything has made me think... Why would there be a God.. if the world was created by the big bang and the gas made from that accumulated into the stars and the earth how it is now. Then Humans formed from Bacteria. Where does God, Jesus and Adam and Eve come into any of this!

I am really confused at the moment, i dont know what to believe anymore.

Dont worry Emilee, you can always trust in one thing. Blackburn Rovers are the greatest football team in the world. In the universe. Thats all thats important dear. :thumbs:

[Bells]

Originally posted by Emilee
I am !Seriously! Doubting my beleifs now! Everything has made me think... Why would there be a God.. if the world was created by the big bang and the gas made from that accumulated into the stars and the earth how it is now. Then Humans formed from Bacteria. Where does God, Jesus and Adam and Eve come into any of this!

I am really confused at the moment, i dont know what to believe anymore.

Read back on my posts on the 3rd page... that's my take on things.

Whether you believe or not is ENTIRELY up to the person alone however.

[Emilee]

Originally posted by ice_maiden02
Originally posted by Emilee
I am !Seriously! Doubting my beleifs now! Everything has made me think... Why would there be a God.. if the world was created by the big bang and the gas made from that accumulated into the stars and the earth how it is now. Then Humans formed from Bacteria. Where does God, Jesus and Adam and Eve come into any of this!

I am really confused at the moment, i dont know what to believe anymore.

Read back on my posts on the 3rd page... that's my take on things.

Whether you believe or not is ENTIRELY up to the person alone however.

I absolutley agree with what you said, Its a good way to look at everything. Thanks x:xyxwave:

[easypeasy]

What if David Koresh was the second coming of the messiah on earth? wouldnt surprise me with the jewish new world order illumintae owl worshipers running the show.

[Michael]

im a catholic and i believe that God exists, etc lol...

[ttw]

I have always wondered why, when someone dies, they say "so and so is looking down on u"

when no one actually goes up to heaven until judgement day???

[Shaun]

I've no idea what I believe in, to be perfectly honest!

I'm an agnostic, I think. We'll never know if there is a higher being (or whatever you wish to call it), but I don't believe we just came from a bang.

[ThisIsMarie]

I believe as much as i believe there is an actual man, the big brother that is in charge and looking out for the housemates like a big brother should... :laugh:

[J.C.]

Originally posted by ttw
I have always wondered why, when someone dies, they say "so and so is looking down on u"

when no one actually goes up to heaven until judgement day???

I feel that you have hit the nail on the head here . The nasty business of death created the demand for religions in all parts of the world. It is a natural desire to tell someone dying that this isn't really the end but just the beginning. However these statements are only viable if they are believable and that's where the demand for religion was created .
I've never written a poem before, but as it's post 1000, I thought I'd give it a go. Apologies for the grammar etc and I sincerely hope not to offend anyone, as I do fully respect all those who have their own beliefs. This is just an opinion.

You Believe In God

Oh god it’s God, a most heavenly bod
For so long I have stayed away
But now I need to have my say
No, I don’t believe in God

My oh my, I so wanted to try
You have one and they have one
Already that’s two, but I have none
No, I don’t believe in God

Goodness gracious it’s so audacious
Is he a she, or she a he ?
You don’t know, and don’t ask me
No, I don’t believe in God

Oh my lord, this seems like a fraud
He created us and you think that’s true
Then where’s his son, and shouldn’t I sue ?
No, I don’t believe in God

I want to yell, but I’ll go to hell
Eternal life for you, but not for me
And that’s the key, so I’ll let it be
No, I don’t believe in God.

J.C. Appropriately

[m.r.davies]

In the Bible, we are not told anything about GOD being created
in genesis it says,
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

It also says that outside the earth time doesn't exist (if you know the verse then please state it so people dont think i'm making it up)
anyway, this points to TIME being a creation of GOD

If thats the case, then there is no "who created GOD" because time has been taken out of the equation.

The Problem is, Time surrounds all we know, so our brains cant handle the fact that GOD just existed, not all of you will get this
you have to stop and think about this, then you might understand what i'm getting at.

It's good to see a healthy debate, if you have any serious questions then please ask away

I'm 29 now, at the age of 23 i became a christian,
I could accept the big bang, but couldn't accept the chemicals etc that created the big bang just "existed"
It just made no sense to me, ....neither did GOD at this stage!

I went on an alpha course, (contact your local big lively church) and it gave me chance to get my questions answered in an informal enviroment, i would recommend an alpha course just for the free food :)

[ttw]

Originally posted by J.C.
Originally posted by ttw
I have always wondered why, when someone dies, they say "so and so is looking down on u"

when no one actually goes up to heaven until judgement day???

I feel that you have hit the nail on the head here . The nasty business of death created the demand for religions in all parts of the world. It is a natural desire to tell someone dying that this isn't really the end but just the beginning. However these statements are only viable if they are believable and that's where the demand for religion was created .
I've never written a poem before, but as it's post 1000, I thought I'd give it a go. Apologies for the grammar etc and I sincerely hope not to offend anyone, as I do fully respect all those who have their own beliefs. This is just an opinion.



Yes, I agree.

Good poem.

"Man made God, outta ignorance and fear
If God made man, then why the hell would he put us here?
I thought he's supposed to be the all loving
The same God who let Hitler put the Jews in the oven"
Dead Prez - Propaganda

[ttw]

Originally posted by m.r.davies
In the Bible, we are not told anything about GOD being created
in genesis it says,
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

It also says that outside the earth time doesn't exist (if you know the verse then please state it so people dont think i'm making it up)
anyway, this points to TIME being a creation of GOD

If thats the case, then there is no "who created GOD" because time has been taken out of the equation.

The Problem is, Time surrounds all we know, so our brains cant handle the fact that GOD just existed, not all of you will get this
you have to stop and think about this, then you might understand what i'm getting at.

It's good to see a healthy debate, if you have any serious questions then please ask away

I'm 29 now, at the age of 23 i became a christian,
I could accept the big bang, but couldn't accept the chemicals etc that created the big bang just "existed"
It just made no sense to me, ....neither did GOD at this stage!

I went on an alpha course, (contact your local big lively church) and it gave me chance to get my questions answered in an informal enviroment, i would recommend an alpha course just for the free food :)

Even if I did accept that god, just existed.

There are still a million and one other things that would have me wondering whether he was actually worth worshipping.

[Dr43%er]

This song by XTC sums up exactly how I feel about God. Sure i have posted it before.

Dear God.

Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I dont mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they dont get enough to eat

From god,
I cant believe in you.

Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet,
About god,
I cant believe in you.

Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!

Dear god,
Dont know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it aint and so do you,
Dear god,
I cant believe in,
I dont believe in,

I wont believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
Youre always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And its the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebodys unholy hoax,
And if youre up there youll perceive,
That my hearts here upon my sleeve.
If theres one thing I dont believe in...

Its you,
Dear god.

[officialleafan]

I am a big beliver, and i am not a catholic or religous. I am a really big beliver in god. But i don't belive in the Church nor not eating meat on good Friday! It's one of them things...but i'm not going to change people's opinion, it's not my place...just telling you what i am and feel!

[bananarama]

I think I would describe myself as an agnostic at least in part if that's possible...In part I simply don't know and in part I would say our existance is a result of something else.

Perhaps multiple forces coming together to creat but not able to interfer with the creation after the event.

My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

[officialleafan]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
Random question..

How could Mary have had baby Jesus when she was a virgin?

It was through the holy spirit. She had Jesus through the holy spirit!

[Sticks]

As is the replies given when we ask why happened before the Big Bang.

[Sarah.]

No one knows, no one ever will, we cannot prove anything. I don't think we will ever be able to. I personally don't believe in God, the bible could even be a story written by somebody back then, like any book today could be seen as real thousands of years ahead of us. I don't see the point in religion and faith and all of that, I believe that we evolved over millions of years, and God did not create Adam and Eve. It's even difficult explaining what I believe too.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by mrs_rko
the bible could even be a story written by somebody back then, like any book today could be seen as real thousands of years ahead of us.

Except archaeological evidence in support of Old an New Testaments has been uncovered verifying it.

If you ever get to visit the British Museum in London, say hi to the black obelisk of Shalmaneser III, which just happens to have a picture of Jehu, king of Israel bringing tribute, a picture we have of an Israelite king mentioned in the Bible.

Next visit the Hittite collection, a people the Bible spoke about, but sceptics decided never existed, until we found their civilisation.

Check out the book Pharaohs and Kings by Dr David Roal, who found an anomaly in Egyptian dating, and as a by product found what could be a statue of Joseph, who became Pharaohs right hand man

Next take a look at the work of Dr William Ramsey, who set out to prove Luke wrong, the Luke who wrote the gospel and Acts. He only ended up being converted because of Luke's accuracy.

They even found the pool which was mentioned in John's gospel where the man lay for 35 years.

Hardly a contender for being a book of fairy tales.

[Psylocke]

I had a drunken argument over this last night.

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by m.r.davies
In the Bible, we are not told anything about GOD being created
in genesis it says,
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

It also says that outside the earth time doesn't exist (if you know the verse then please state it so people dont think i'm making it up)
anyway, this points to TIME being a creation of GOD

If thats the case, then there is no "who created GOD" because time has been taken out of the equation.

The Problem is, Time surrounds all we know, so our brains cant handle the fact that GOD just existed, not all of you will get this
you have to stop and think about this, then you might understand what i'm getting at.

It's good to see a healthy debate, if you have any serious questions then please ask away

I'm 29 now, at the age of 23 i became a christian,
I could accept the big bang, but couldn't accept the chemicals etc that created the big bang just "existed"
It just made no sense to me, ....neither did GOD at this stage!

I went on an alpha course, (contact your local big lively church) and it gave me chance to get my questions answered in an informal enviroment, i would recommend an alpha course just for the free food :)

Even if I did accept that god, just existed.

There are still a million and one other things that would have me wondering whether he was actually worth worshipping.

You should always question stuff mate, i'm with you on this one!

And those million an one things are worth finding out about, I would focus on the basics for now though if you are genuinely interested.

its good to keep an open mind.... for both sides.

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by bananarama


My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

I dont think GOD created himself, GOD just was, see my previous post on this. (the whole time is a creation thing)

as for you other question, I can honestly say that GOD has communicated to me (not in an audible voice).

Loads of mad craaaazy stuff has happened which wont mean anything to you, but it means a heck of a lot to me, and I know for a fact in my heart it was GOD

this famous dude sums it up quite well
"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't they don't."
--William Temple--

[Razmataz]

I don't think there is a god, but I think there is a move that determines everyones move.

So if I move left, someone had to move right, like a chain of cause and effect. Only the chain gets confused when 2 people want to go the same way, they call this Love.

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by Psylocke
I had a drunken argument over this last night.

Ah yes the old drunken argument

let me guess, neither of you won and you both walked away thinking less of the other person?

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by mrs_rko
the bible could even be a story written by somebody back then, like any book today could be seen as real thousands of years ahead of us.

Except archaeological evidence in support of Old an New Testaments has been uncovered verifying it.

If you ever get to visit the British Museum in London, say hi to the black obelisk of Shalmaneser III, which just happens to have a picture of Jehu, king of Israel bringing tribute, a picture we have of an Israelite king mentioned in the Bible.

Next visit the Hittite collection, a people the Bible spoke about, but sceptics decided never existed, until we found their civilisation.

Check out the book Pharaohs and Kings by Dr David Roal, who found an anomaly in Egyptian dating, and as a by product found what could be a statue of Joseph, who became Pharaohs right hand man

Next take a look at the work of Dr William Ramsey, who set out to prove Luke wrong, the Luke who wrote the gospel and Acts. He only ended up being converted because of Luke's accuracy.

They even found the pool which was mentioned in John's gospel where the man lay for 35 years.

Hardly a contender for being a book of fairy tales.

:dance2:

Ha, wouldn't want to argue with you mate, you seem to know your stuff!

[bananarama]

Originally posted by m.r.davies
In the Bible, we are not told anything about GOD being created
in genesis it says,
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

It also says that outside the earth time doesn't exist (if you know the verse then please state it so people dont think i'm making it up)
anyway, this points to TIME being a creation of GOD

If thats the case, then there is no "who created GOD" because time has been taken out of the equation.

The Problem is, Time surrounds all we know, so our brains cant handle the fact that GOD just existed, not all of you will get this
you have to stop and think about this, then you might understand what i'm getting at.

It's good to see a healthy debate, if you have any serious questions then please ask away

I'm 29 now, at the age of 23 i became a christian,
I could accept the big bang, but couldn't accept the chemicals etc that created the big bang just "existed"
It just made no sense to me, ....neither did GOD at this stage!

I went on an alpha course, (contact your local big lively church) and it gave me chance to get my questions answered in an informal enviroment, i would recommend an alpha course just for the free food :)

I believe your theory or belief or whatever only makes sense to you because you want it to.....

[bananarama]

Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama


My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

I dont think GOD created himself, GOD just was, see my previous post on this. (the whole time is a creation thing)

as for you other question, I can honestly say that GOD has communicated to me (not in an audible voice).

Loads of mad craaaazy stuff has happened which wont mean anything to you, but it means a heck of a lot to me, and I know for a fact in my heart it was GOD

this famous dude sums it up quite well
"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't they don't."
--William Temple--

God has communicated with you!!!! Oh dear...Thats the problem with religion self delusion is a powerful and possibly quite dangerous force.......

[nodisharmony]

Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:

[Sunny_01]

What a wonderful way to put it Nick

I dont believe in God as an instituation, I believe that if there is a god he would want us to worship in the way we choose to live our lives, not by sitting in a church at the same time every week!

[bananarama]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:



Excellent post.....That train of though to me makes more sense than the old unverifiable stories....None of us can possibly know the mental state let alone the level of literacy of those who are responsible for bibical writings........

If i had to believe in anything of a supernatural nature I would opt for re-encarnation....That's the only thing that would justify our existance as far as i can see.....

A god that created us all and if you believe in religious cultures wants us to behave according to the rule of god. Then surely an entity capable of creation would be capable of clear and unambiguous communaction with his creation and put them on the right path of life.....That has not happened..Draw ones own conclusions.......

[nodisharmony]

Thankyou both, Sunny, Bananarama for commending my post:blush2:

It is impossible to know what will happen when we eventually die, but like my post says, "Reincarnation" does sound believable, but our memories would disappear & as we start as babies & end as pensioners, the cycle would continue the same way.

Of, course, some of us are just unlucky & die earlier, for whatever reason.

But in the next life, some may be luckier?

The thought's regarding, "God", well, would any of us meet him one day? I doubt it.....

Our soul's will just move onto another body & start again.

But we all think differently & this is where "religion" sadly goes wrong:sad:

Some take it too seriously & actually kill for the sake of it...






nodisharmony :angel:

[J.C.]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:


How clearly you see things Nick. That really was a great post. Imagine if everyone had this view and how the world would actually be a peaceful place.
The fact that even in this modern age so many deaths are a result of differing religious views is something I find harder to take than almost anything else.

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by J.C.
Originally posted by nodisharmony
Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:


How clearly you see things Nick. That really was a great post. Imagine if everyone had this view and how the world would actually be a peaceful place.
The fact that even in this modern age so many deaths are a result of differing religious views is something I find harder to take than almost anything else.

Thanks J.C.:thumbs:

Some people use religion as a reason to destroy & kill.

How many say, "I did it for religion"





nodisharmony :angel:

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by bananarama
Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama


My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

I dont think GOD created himself, GOD just was, see my previous post on this. (the whole time is a creation thing)

as for you other question, I can honestly say that GOD has communicated to me (not in an audible voice).

Loads of mad craaaazy stuff has happened which wont mean anything to you, but it means a heck of a lot to me, and I know for a fact in my heart it was GOD

this famous dude sums it up quite well
"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't they don't."
--William Temple--

God has communicated with you!!!! Oh dear...Thats the problem with religion self delusion is a powerful and possibly quite dangerous force.......

thanks for the complement :tongue:
I wouldn't expect you to understand, and i would be saying the same thing if i hadn't experienced it myself, i'm not a freak, or a nasty person, in fact i'm quite a nice person and wouldn't harm anyone, so i'm not sure thats dangerous????

People can spend all day trying to disprove GOD, but its better to try and work out you own belief first, rather than discredit someone else's

unless you just want an argument?
:wink:

...oh and by the way, i'm not religious, thats a bunch of relics and man made crap setup to control people, lots of it isn't even in the bible!
Its about having a relationship with GOD, not going to church and waving some smelly stuff around

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by J.C.
Originally posted by nodisharmony
Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:


How clearly you see things Nick. That really was a great post. Imagine if everyone had this view and how the world would actually be a peaceful place.
The fact that even in this modern age so many deaths are a result of differing religious views is something I find harder to take than almost anything else.

Thanks J.C.:thumbs:

Some people use religion as a reason to destroy & kill.

How many say, "I did it for religion"


nodisharmony :angel:

loads mate, recently its been mostly muslims doing jihads (dont know how you spell it)

However, dont confuse religion with GOD,
religion is rules
GOD would condemn loads of this stuff "done in the name of religion"

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Okay, this is what I think.


(I believe that we create our own heaven & our own hell in life)

I believe in FATE, things are meant to happen for a reason.

I believe that when we die, our memories are wiped clean & our soul will be passed onto another new life.

We all run in that cycle.

on & on & on & on forever.........

I think the bible is just a storybook, but with some very good morals & meanings & so much of what is said, is true. But quite a bit is not.

Do I believe that when we die, that we shall meet Peter or God or anyone else?? Do I believe that bad people will meet the devil & be tortured til the end of time??

The answer is (No) In my opinion.

But for all of us, it's total guesswork....

But just think of how many people have been killed, due to the word "Religion", think about that hard:puzzled::puzzled:

Then look at my first sentance in my post....Says it all really:conf2:






nodisharmony :angel:

interesting post mate,

one question
if you theory is correct, what would be the meaning of life? and how/why were we created

good to see you thinking about stuff,
I have a lot of respect for people who are exploring
it's easier to ignore it

[J.C.]

Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama
Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama


My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

I dont think GOD created himself, GOD just was, see my previous post on this. (the whole time is a creation thing)

as for you other question, I can honestly say that GOD has communicated to me (not in an audible voice).

Loads of mad craaaazy stuff has happened which wont mean anything to you, but it means a heck of a lot to me, and I know for a fact in my heart it was GOD

this famous dude sums it up quite well
"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't they don't."
--William Temple--

God has communicated with you!!!! Oh dear...Thats the problem with religion self delusion is a powerful and possibly quite dangerous force.......

thanks for the complement :tongue:
I wouldn't expect you to understand, and i would be saying the same thing if i hadn't experienced it myself, i'm not a freak, or a nasty person, in fact i'm quite a nice person and wouldn't harm anyone, so i'm not sure thats dangerous????

People can spend all day trying to disprove GOD, but its better to try and work out you own belief first, rather than discredit someone else's

unless you just want an argument?
:wink:

...oh and by the way, i'm not religious, thats a bunch of relics and man made c**p setup to control people, lots of it isn't even in the bible!
Its about having a relationship with GOD, not going to church and waving some smelly stuff around

I really don't think anyone is suggesting that you are a freak or a nasty person at all.This is just one of those areas where opinions are very strong. I also believe that the reference to it 'possibly' being dangerous looks more like a generalization.

I'm sure you use your belief in God as a positive experience, and because of that, it frankly doesn't matter at all whether your beliefs are correct or not, but there's no getting away from the fact that these type of beliefs are also used in a very negative way which can easily, and in my opinion correctly, be described as dangerous.
:thumbs:

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by m.r.davies


interesting post mate,

Thanks:thumbs:

one question
if you theory is correct, what would be the meaning of life? and how/why were we created

I don't think it matters about "Why?" We just exist & get on with our lives. Many do try to work it all out and come to some sort of understanding, but to myself, we just live our lives in the way we choose & that is it.

How we were created, I wouldn't even like to hazard a guess? We are just here & we just exist

good to see you thinking about stuff,
I have a lot of respect for people who are exploring
it's easier to ignore it

I thought about this along time ago & it makes sense to me. Basically, my soul & my mind is in my body & exists. None of us are in two or more bodies are we. So, we know that is something very special. We have a soul inside of us & I just don't believe it ends when we die. I am sure we shall enter another body, somewhere else. Male or Female, who knows? But we go on & on

loads mate, recently its been mostly muslims doing jihads (dont know how you spell it)

However, dont confuse religion with GOD,
religion is rules
GOD would condemn loads of this stuff "done in the name of religion"

[b]God & religion run hand in hand. If someone believes in a particular religion, there will be the word "God", somewhere within the conversation.

They may not say the word "God", they will refer to him with another name.

As there are so many different religions & those that do really live their lives by religion & God can turn it into war & death & mass murder, in the name of their God.

Take "Iran" for instance.

Watch the film:- "Not Without My Daughter" with Sally Field.

That films speaks volumes about how religion rules lives & much, much more...






nodisharmony :angel:

[bananarama]

Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama
Originally posted by m.r.davies
Originally posted by bananarama


My question is....If God exists and there are so many confused and interested people wanting to know. Surley if he/she has the power to creat all he/she would also have the power to communicate his/her existance to all of us now in modern times......I wonder why he/she has not done so.....Could it be he/she is just not there!!!!!! Or perhaps he was mortal like his creation is now no longer alive.

The question posed "Who created God" is a fair question just saying God created himself is simply avoiding the question probably because it may shake ones belief.....

I dont think GOD created himself, GOD just was, see my previous post on this. (the whole time is a creation thing)

as for you other question, I can honestly say that GOD has communicated to me (not in an audible voice).

Loads of mad craaaazy stuff has happened which wont mean anything to you, but it means a heck of a lot to me, and I know for a fact in my heart it was GOD

this famous dude sums it up quite well
"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't they don't."
--William Temple--

God has communicated with you!!!! Oh dear...Thats the problem with religion self delusion is a powerful and possibly quite dangerous force.......

thanks for the complement :tongue:
I wouldn't expect you to understand, and i would be saying the same thing if i hadn't experienced it myself, i'm not a freak, or a nasty person, in fact i'm quite a nice person and wouldn't harm anyone, so i'm not sure thats dangerous????

People can spend all day trying to disprove GOD, but its better to try and work out you own belief first, rather than discredit someone else's

unless you just want an argument?
:wink:

...oh and by the way, i'm not religious, thats a bunch of relics and man made c**p setup to control people, lots of it isn't even in the bible!
Its about having a relationship with GOD, not going to church and waving some smelly stuff around



@ m.r.davies

No I am not looking for an argument. My reference to self delusion being dangerous was general (I would have thought you understood that). Killings/wars are justifiesd by those that think God has spoken to them.

I am in no way suggesting you are dangerous or want to kill. It was not a personal attack in that sense at all. If my message was ambiguous and upset you then I am sorry for that.

Back to the bit that worried me. When someone says they have communicated with god I have to be frank i see that as delusional. It's your right to believe that I know but I find it wishful thinking or delusional. Plus you made the claim without any explanation of how that communication worked.

To say to someone you would not understand is patronising. You can at least try an explanation.......I see your "would not understand" comment as an excuse not to explain because perhaps you can't.......I challenge you to try........Maybe I wont understand but is it not worth a try. How about it.......

Whatever belief gives you comfort in life that's fine. But I have opinions too and as this is a debate forum holding back what I truthfully believe about another persons belief would stifle debate.........

By the way I agree 100% with your last comments about religion and relics etc......You have found Your God and may Your God bless you...

[ttw]

I think religion and god come hand in hand too.

Without Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone we would not know of Harry Potter.

Without the bible/qu'ran, whichever you believe we would not know of god.

And if we did it would not be as we know it today.

[bananarama]

Heres perhaps an arrogant thought. Suppose us mankind is god split across the planet into billions of pieces in the form of people and possibly animals too.......After all manking is always trying to creat something........Even if its only chaos.......

[PleasurePrinciple]

Yes, God, Jesus, Spirits, Afterlife. ITS REAL.
EMBRACE IT.
I bet thefinal second of your life you will have some kind of faith "just incase"

[bonnie43uk]

Na, .. download some Richard Dawkins stuff on youtube "The god delusion".. it's all a load of rubbish, but if you want to believe in it, and it enriches your life, I'm very happy for you. .. but dont tell me i'm going to hell if i dont believe in god, thats just wrong.

[Dr43%er]

To all those who say I am a non believer, I say no. I believe there is no god and people who do not agree with this are the non believers.

Just a thought.

[001steven]

i dunno maybe

[Psylocke]

everyone is there own god.

[Dr43%er]

In that case I smite me down with something or other.

[Psylocke]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
In that case I smite me down with something or other.

Smiting yourself with a 13 inch penis might be fun.:laugh:

[Dr43%er]

Why would I want to go smaller?:laugh2:

[Psylocke]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
Why would I want to go smaller?:laugh2:

:laugh:
:laugh:

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by bananarama

@ m.r.davies

No I am not looking for an argument. My reference to self delusion being dangerous was general (I would have thought you understood that). Killings/wars are justifiesd by those that think God has spoken to them.

I am in no way suggesting you are dangerous or want to kill. It was not a personal attack in that sense at all. If my message was ambiguous and upset you then I am sorry for that.

Back to the bit that worried me. When someone says they have communicated with god I have to be frank i see that as delusional. It's your right to believe that I know but I find it wishful thinking or delusional. Plus you made the claim without any explanation of how that communication worked.

To say to someone you would not understand is patronising. You can at least try an explanation.......I see your "would not understand" comment as an excuse not to explain because perhaps you can't.......I challenge you to try........Maybe I wont understand but is it not worth a try. How about it.......

Whatever belief gives you comfort in life that's fine. But I have opinions too and as this is a debate forum holding back what I truthfully believe about another persons belief would stifle debate.........

By the way I agree 100% with your last comments about religion and relics etc......You have found Your God and may Your God bless you...

thanks for a kind reply!
no offence taken.

To be honest i used to think people were crazy and a bunch of panseys when they went on about GOD, it was all so cheesey and used to get on my nerves (some cheese miesters still do)
I suppose i'm a rough around the edges christian, haven't been a christian all my life and got quite a shadey past.

when i said you wouldn't understand, i didn't intend to be patronising, i just thought of my old self and thought that i wouldn't believe any of it, thats all.
As i said in a previous post, when i pray, then stuff happens, and when i dont pray, stuff doesn't happen.

One time that sticks in my head was when i did the alpha course, the 12 week course had actually finished, and i was attending a follow up thing.
It was basically a group of people who went around someones house for coffee and tea, and then we would disscuss stuff.
there was a mix of people, some christians and some people like me who had just done the alpha course.

On this particular occasion I was around one of the guys house from church.
I remember REALLY not wanting to be there,
I was having loads of problems with my girlfriend i was living with, she didn't like all this church stuff, and stuff was real bad, it was getting me down and i started drinking quite a heavily after work and on weekends.

Whilst over this guys house, all i could think about was going to the pub and necking a few pints before last orders,

At this meeting, i had convinced myself that this church stuff wasn't for me and it was a load of bull that i didn't want to waste any more of my time with,
This was the last time i was going to see any of these freaks (bit harsh but you do get some odd christians)

Anyway, i nearly got up and left, but felt a bit rude.
Time went on and over schedule, i think it finshed about 10:30pm, i was tamping and was going to explode as all i could think about was my nice cold beer!
I remember thinking i was close to missing last orders by the time i got to the local.

as soon as it finished i was out the door like a shot,
I didn't even look back to say goodbye to the people i was convinced i wouldn't see again.

It was raining outside, so i ran, when i got close to the car, i put my hands in my pockets to get my keys out readyto jump in, but all i felt was a wallet and empty pockets, as i stood in front of the drivers door a sudden realisation dawned on me as i saw a glimpse of silver reflecting off the street light, my keys were peacefully dangling out of the ignition. Somehow (no idea HOW) i'd left them there, and locked the door behind me.

This annoyed me a bit, but due to my shadey past, i knew i could get that door open within 30 seconds,
it was an old car with old worn locks, and had opened it on numerous occasions with other peoples keys.

I ran back to the guys house, quickly explained the situation, and seconds later we were back at my car which a huge bunch of his work keys,
I instantly identified the suitable keys that would do the job,

after 1 min i was a bit puzzled, the black pin on the inside of the door wasn't even slightly moving,
15 mins and 30 keys later I was still locked out but now i was wet and really angry as last orders was fast approaching. (seems trivial now, but at the time it wasn't)

Andy, the guy from church whos house we were at said, Mark, i think its about time we prayed about this .... my instant reaction was to smack him in the face, but i didn't, and let him get on with it, he closed his eyes and said, Lord, please help us open this door, he opened his eyes, glanced at me and slid a key into the lock.
with an effortless turn i saw the black pin rise and stop in the open position

I felt a cold shiver across the back of my neck as i slowly turned to look at andy, who casually said,
Cool, ok Mark i'll see you next week.

You will now think to yourself, thats a coincidence, but as i said previously, coincidences happen when i pray!

I believe this was GOD saying, NO your not walking away that easily, and was using stuff that would get my attention (getting into cars)


If i had left that day the way i intended to, i dont think i would have gone back and would probably not be a christian.

This is just one of LOADS of ways i believe GOD has communicated with me. i used this one as it was the first one and kinda blew me away!


...oh and i still managed to get in 1 beer before the bar closed :thumbs2:

[Psylocke]

do you not think the fact you worry about somthing enough that you have to pray for it,then when it happens you over-react because you made such a big deal in the first place.

I mean,the church themselves say when you pray God listens,but dosent act,as he gave humans the gift of free will and whatever happens we have to deal with it ourselves.

No offence of course,its nice to have faith.

[on_mercury]

I disagree with religion. Its amazing how a myth or story book such as the bible can actually delude people into thinking there is a "god" and its sad how many people think there going to go to heaven - a better place when they die! honestly what more do people want other then life itself. Characters like jesus and moses are likely to be fictional i guess i just dont beleive in fairytales...

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by Psylocke
do you not think the fact you worry about somthing enough that you have to pray for it,then when it happens you over-react because you made such a big deal in the first place.


valid point,
from my experience stuff usually happens that defies all the odds

Originally posted by Psylocke
I mean,the church themselves say when you pray God listens,but dosent act,as he gave humans the gift of free will and whatever happens we have to deal with it ourselves.


Where did you get that information from?
Never heard of that before, what churches say that God doesn't act?
would kinda be pointless praying then

[m.r.davies]

Originally posted by on_mercury
I disagree with religion. Its amazing how a myth or story book such as the bible can actually delude people into thinking there is a "god" and its sad how many people think there going to go to heaven - a better place when they die! honestly what more do people want other then life itself. Characters like jesus and moses are likely to be fictional i guess i just dont beleive in fairytales...

Hi On Mercury, thanks for your comments
sorry to disappoint you, but there is plenty of non church historical evidence around that supports a man called Jesus was real, who appeared to do miraculous things and was cruicified on a cross

I'm sure Sticks will comment on Moses

whether you believe the GOD part or not, this stuff happened!

If you looked into it properly you would be very suprised at the evidence.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by m.r.davies

Hi On Mercury, thanks for your comments
sorry to disappoint you, but there is plenty of non church historical evidence around that supports a man called Jesus was real, who appeared to do miraculous things and was cruicified on a cross

I'm sure Sticks will comment on Moses

whether you believe the GOD part or not, this stuff happened!

If you looked into it properly you would be very suprised at the evidence.

Further material on Jesus (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/87)

Some article about Moses (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13)

[Dr43%er]

I firmly believe there was a chap called jesus who was a great orator and stood up for the downtrodden masses, who in the end was crucified for causing **** for the ruling class. This is no proof off god though.

Arthur Scargill, great orator, stood up for the downtrodden masses (miners) and crucified (politicly) for his stance. = God?

Matin luther King. Great orator, stood up for the downtrodden masses (black people) and crucified (shot) for his stance. = God?

Adolf Hitler. You see where i am going with this.

[Vicky.]

Some really good, thought provoking stuff in here...sorry for bumping old threads but I'm really bored and looking through very old posts...

And god may well exist, but I dont personaly believe he/she/it does.

I believe in evolution. And, crazy as it sounds, the big bang.

[Sticks]

Sometimes though it takes more faith to be an athiest.

[arista]

Further material on Jesus (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/87)

Some article about Moses (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13)


There is No Jesus
There is No God


The bible is a old fable book.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There is No Jesus
There is No God


The bible is a old fable book.

You could be thinking of the Next Directory?

[arista]

You could be thinking of the Next Directory?


No.

[bananarama]

Well...........
I cannot answer that question, I beleive God wasn;t created by reproduction, be somehow created himself.... I knowthat sounds stupid to most of you, but that is what i think.

God was not created by anyone, he created himself.


Sounds pretty stupid to me. No offence just the conclusion sounds stupid...Heres why........In order to creat you first have to exist.....Therfore no need to creat oneself unless you have a desire to be twins :hugesmile:

The idea thet everything comes as a result of one entity to me is far too simplistic and does not do justice to the intelligence of man kind....

What ever the answer is I am sure it is far more complicated than having one majical entity doing the impossible a bit like father xmas clambering through all those chimney pots........

[Stacey.]

No,i dont believe in god,
however i do believe in certian religious things :)...

[Beastie]

I am God.

[bananarama]

I am God.

Can you give me this weeks lottery winning numbers please.......

[Captain.Remy]

Oh wow, so many members from the old crew, it's weird to look back to some of the best era in TIBB history. And I can't believe Nodish posted there lmao I miss that one.

And I think this thread has a lot to teach to members today: how to have an healthy and well made debate without insulting each other of *****s, sluts, bitches or mother ****er like we see pretty much every day here.

Oh well, it was the good old times.

[Beastie]

can you give me this weeks lottery winning numbers please.......

5 9 16 24 33 42

[andyman]

Yes and no.. God can exist in our own reality, outside our reality you must look past God being he or she..

[InOne]

God exists in the mind.

[Tom4784]

We've got no possible way of knowing either way so why worry about it?

That's my view anyway.

[AfroMullet]

I am god for real, the black mans god son.

[Beastie]

God is gay and black.

[Jessica.]

How many planets are there?
There are so many unanswerable questions!

[Skeptic-i]

I personally think that god[s] are nothing more than the anthropomorphization of human selfishness - this includes: animistic paranoia/fear, wishful thinking, the need to control.

God[s] does not/don't exist.

[InOne]

Endless debate where we will end up back where we started. Just like every ****ing documentary on Religion

[Skeptic-i]

Except archaeological evidence in support of Old an New Testaments has been uncovered verifying it.

1) A few artefacts depicting former Kings do not prove the events - especially the supernatural claims - are true. Neither do they validate the entire books.

2) Just because certain places are mentioned in the bible, it doesn't mean the characters existed. Neither does it mean the events surrounding the characters in those places were true. E.g. New York exists, Spider-Man doesn't.

Now, according to some of the latest research, archaeologists are well-aware that many of the events depicted in the bible didn't actually take place, e.g. the fall of Jericho's mighty walls (it was a small, unfortified, insignificant settlement). Then there's the exodus - it didn't take place. And there are countless other problems with the claims in the bible when compared to archaeological findings - far too many to go into here.

Although the bible may contain some historical events, much of it is fiction - and/or embellished with fiction. Many of the fables were little more than tribal propaganda - a means to glorify their god and discourage apostasy.

[arista]

I am god for real, the black mans god son.


That makes a Change.


There you go Bible Sticks.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1) A few artefacts depicting former Kings do not prove the events - especially the supernatural claims - are true. Neither do they validate the entire books.

2) Just because certain places are mentioned in the bible, it doesn't mean the characters existed. Neither does it mean the events surrounding the characters in those places were true. E.g. New York exists, Spider-Man doesn't.

Now, according to some of the latest research, archaeologists are well-aware that many of the events depicted in the bible didn't actually take place, e.g. the fall of Jericho's mighty walls (it was a small, unfortified, insignificant settlement). Then there's the exodus - it didn't take place. And there are countless other problems with the claims in the bible when compared to archaeological findings - far too many to go into here.

Although the bible may contain some historical events, much of it is fiction - and/or embellished with fiction. Many of the fables were little more than tribal propaganda - a means to glorify their god and discourage apostasy.

The Bible is many things, poetry, factual history, allegory, proverb, song, eye-witness account, prophesy, revelation.. It is important to realise this and to understand the main theme.

It contains 66 books written by 40 different authors over around 1600 years. The authors were Kings and princess, poets and philosophers, prophets and statesmen. Some were writers some were unschooled fishermen.

Trying to trivialise the Bible will only act as a mirror on your own shortcomings.

[Skeptic-i]

The Bible is many things, poetry, factual history,...

I agree. The bible is many things - including fiction.

It contains 66 books written by 40 different authors over around 1600 years. The authors were Kings and princess, poets and philosophers, prophets and statesmen. Some were writers some were unschooled fishermen.

Well, it's quite obvious that one author didn't write the books over a period of 1600 years. But then, "Moses" was quite good at authoring after his death - so you never know ;)

Trying to trivialise the Bible will only act as a mirror on your own shortcomings.

I didn't see anyone trying to trivialise the bible. I know I certainly wasn't. I was just pointing out the fact that much of it is fiction.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I agree. The bible is many things - including fiction.



Well, it's quite obvious that one author didn't write the books over a period of 1600 years. But then, "Moses" was quite good at authoring after his death - so you never know ;)



I didn't see anyone trying to trivialise the bible. I know I certainly wasn't. I was just pointing out the fact that much of it is fiction.

which parts are fiction and how do you come to that conclusion?

(i can check if you cut and paste)

[Skeptic-i]

which parts are fiction and how do you come to that conclusion?

Well, being as there is quite a lot fiction in both books, I'll stick with a couple of my original claims - otherwise I'll be here all month:

1) Exodus as described in the bible never occurred - this is known thanks to extensive archaeological research.

2) The Walls of Jericho - according to Joshua, the priests blew trumpets and the people yelled - making the mighty walls of Jericho fall down. Today, archaeologists understand that Canaan cities were unfortified - these "cities" had no mighty walls that could come tumbling down. As for Jericho, well, the only sign of settlement dates from the 14th century B.C.E. It was a small, impoverished, insignificant settlement - with no fortification. There was also no sign of destruction. Obviously, the events as described in the bible aren't accurate. The events are fictitious - or have been embellished with romantic fiction.

I've come to my conclusions through the work of archaeologists at the Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv University and the Ename Center for Public Archaeology, Belgium. I've also come to some of my conclusions about the claims in the bible, because - to be honest - they're absurd!

Well, you did ask.

[Captain.Remy]

It doesn't matter whether it exists or not, it's what you do with it that matters.

I'm a Catholic myself but I'm no angel and I read the Bible, you cannot take all the stuff by how it comes out, you have to interpret it, to make it your own. I agree with certain parts and I don't with others. People who take this word by word and make a strict life out of it are extremists. I'm not talking about Fathers, Priests and Sisters but all these redneck Americans who claim God is everything and only swear by it.

[InOne]

It doesn't matter whether it exists or not, it's what you do with it that matters.

I'm a Catholic myself but I'm no angel and I read the Bible, you cannot take all the stuff by how it comes out, you have to interpret it, to make it your own. I agree with certain parts and I don't with others. People who take this word by word and make a strict life out of it are extremists. I'm not talking about Fathers, Priests and Sisters but all these redneck Americans who claim God is everything and only swear by it.

I suppose there is another problem, Christians seem to pick and choose what they want to believe.

[Captain.Remy]

I suppose there is another problem, Christians seem to pick and choose what they want to believe.

I think we need to adopt Religion to our times. Nowadays, many views about homosexuality or other issues have evolved. We don't burn ginger or gay people in public places like in the Middle Age because "God wants us to do it". It's ridiculous.
The Bible is not word by word what exactly happened, it's a big picture of what the World is all about and how people perceived it at a certain point.

[InOne]

I think we need to adopt Religion to our times. Nowadays, many views about homosexuality or other issues have evolved. We don't burn ginger or gay people in public places like in the Middle Age because "God wants us to do it". It's ridiculous.
The Bible is not word by word what exactly happened, it's a big picture of what the World is all about and how people perceived it at a certain point.

It's not that bit that botheres me, I know most Christians don't think like that. It's when Christians say they don't believe God created the world, yet they believe Jesus rose from the dead. It's like, they can't have it both ways.

[arista]

Its Simple


There is No God at all.

Those that follow it are weaker.

[Patrick]

Probley not, all the bollocks magic **** that was ment to go down in his time sounds like somthing out of a fairtyale book.

He makes Santa Clause look real tbh
I have no problem if this bloke isnt real, because I couldnt give a **** anyway, I think religion is pathetic and is a waste of time.

Why go to mass when you can be out doing somthing fun on the weekends?
Why go pray to a guy that cant even hear you when you could be doing somthing useful?


I just hope that Heaven excist, I dont want to die and thats that.
I want to go to heaven, but I know spirits excist as members of my family have spoken to several and my mums best mate is a really good pyshic, shes abit scary.

But I dont understand how theres an after life without God?

[Patrick]

Probley not, all the bollocks magic **** that was ment to go down in his time sounds like somthing out of a fairtyale book.

He makes Santa Clause look real tbh
I have no problem if this bloke isnt real, because I couldnt give a **** anyway, I think religion is pathetic and is a waste of time.

Why go to mass when you can be out doing somthing fun on the weekends?
Why go pray to a guy that cant even hear you when you could be doing somthing useful?


I just hope that Heaven excist, I dont want to die and thats that.
I want to go to heaven, but I know spirits excist as members of my family have spoken to several and my mums best mate is a really good pyshic, shes abit scary.

But I dont understand how theres an after life without God?

[Freakmebaby_ahh..yh!]

YES God exists.

but Jesus is not the son of God, he is the son of Mary and Joseph. the Bible is false.

why is there a old and new testament? because people have altered the Bible, people have made up things which they believe is true, but they dont actually know. its made up.

but the old testament is more reliable than the new but tbh i would not follow neither.

If people opened their eyes more and really understood it is possible to find the true religion. dont be ignorant in life explore other religions. the truth is out there.

[Shasown]

why is there a old and new testament?

2 sections to the bible, Old and New Testaments, the old deal with history from "creation" through to a few generations pre Jesus. The New Testament deals solely with JC and his ministry on earth.

There is no such thing as "The" Bible, King James authorised version, used by CofE/Anglican church and other protestant churches, it uses some of the Hebrew bible. Roman catholics also include the deuterocanonical books of the hebrew bible. Greek orthodox is different again.

Modern translations including different books etc are used by by modern christian sects.

[InOne]

YES God exists.

but Jesus is not the son of God, he is the son of Mary and Joseph. the Bible is false.

why is there a old and new testament? because people have altered the Bible, people have made up things which they believe is true, but they dont actually know. its made up.

but the old testament is more reliable than the new but tbh i would not follow neither.

If people opened their eyes more and really understood it is possible to find the true religion. dont be ignorant in life explore other religions. the truth is out there.

God does not exist.

[Freakmebaby_ahh..yh!]

God does not exist.

yes he does.

[InOne]

yes he does.

Tell me why...

[Freakmebaby_ahh..yh!]

Tell me why...

cant be asked, going to bed.

might explain tomorrow. sweet dreams.

[InOne]

cant be asked, going to bed.

might explain tomorrow. sweet dreams.

:rolleyes:

[Shasown]

Scientifically, energy/matter can not be created or destroyed therefore something outside the laws of science as we know created the matter/energy at the beginning, that something could be god, even Hawkins, you know wheelchair, sat nav voice man of science admits that.

[andyman]

Probley not, all the bollocks magic **** that was ment to go down in his time sounds like somthing out of a fairtyale book.

He makes Santa Clause look real tbh
I have no problem if this bloke isnt real, because I couldnt give a **** anyway, I think religion is pathetic and is a waste of time.

Why go to mass when you can be out doing somthing fun on the weekends?
Why go pray to a guy that cant even hear you when you could be doing somthing useful?


I just hope that Heaven excist, I dont want to die and thats that.
I want to go to heaven, but I know spirits excist as members of my family have spoken to several and my mums best mate is a really good pyshic, shes abit scary.

But I dont understand how theres an after life without God?After that rant.. You want to go to heaven?
You need to please St. Peter because he has the keys to them big white gates..

[InOne]

Deism is the way forward for theists, the belief that god created the world then buggered off. All the religious stuff is silly

[andyman]

Scientifically, energy/matter can not be created or destroyed therefore something outside the laws of science as we know created the matter/energy at the beginning, that something could be god, even Hawkins, you know wheelchair, sat nav voice man of science admits that.One god being proton and the other being neutron?

[Skeptic-i]

...therefore something outside the laws of science as we know created the matter/energy at the beginning, that something could be god...

Isn't this kind of like saying:

"Dumb Monkey lived in a cave. Dumb Monkey believed cave God created cave and all life within. Sometimes, dumb monkey prayed to cave God - especially when he thought cave God was angry. One day, a gaping hole appeared in the wall of the cave. Seeing the gaping hole, dumb monkey decided to investigate. Cautiously stepping out, dumb monkey soon realised there was no cave god. "What a DUMB MONKEY I've been" - thought dumb monkey.

[Sticks]

I may have linked to this subject before, but the Anthropic Cosmological Principal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle) was derived by atheists and was effectively the Teleological argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument)for the existance of God.

Quite ironic that!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Isn't this kind of like saying:

"Dumb Monkey lived in a cave. Dumb Monkey believed cave God created cave and all life within. Sometimes, dumb monkey prayed to cave God - especially when he thought cave God was angry. One day, a gaping hole appeared in the wall of the cave. Seeing the gaping hole, dumb monkey decided to investigate. Cautiously stepping out, dumb monkey soon realised there was no cave god. "What a DUMB MONKEY I've been" - thought dumb monkey.

dumb monkey then found pc and it was connected to internet, dumb monkey found some atheist websites, read info and he liked what he read. dumb monkey think that because it makes sense to him must be truth. "what dumb monkeys others must be if they think otherwise" though dumb monkey. Then dumb monkey defected and made small model of members of Blue and Steps and had one hell of a **** fight.

[Skeptic-i]

dumb monkey then found pc and it was connected to internet, dumb monkey found some atheist websites, read info and he liked what he read. dumb monkey think that because it makes sense to him must be truth. "what dumb monkeys others must be if they think otherwise" though dumb monkey. Then dumb monkey defected and made small model of members of Blue and Steps and had one hell of a **** fight.

NO! NO! NO! You've got the story all wrong :laugh2: The rest goes like this:

Dumb Monkey - "being a little more wise" - soon realised he's living on a planet. He calls that planet: Earth. Now he believes Earth God created planet and all life within. Sometimes, dumb monkey prayed to Earth God - especially when he thought Earth God was angry. One day, he invented a spaceship..." - cutting a long story short, he realises he's living in a Universe. Being Dumb Monkey that he is, he keeps repeating the same old mistake: filling the gaps in his knowledge with a god.

[Crimson Dynamo]

NO! NO! NO! You've got the story all wrong :laugh2: The rest goes like this:

Dumb Monkey - "being a little more wise" - soon realised he's living on a planet. He calls that planet: Earth. Now he believes Earth God created planet and all life within. Sometimes, dumb monkey prayed to Earth God - especially when he thought Earth God was angry. One day, he invented a spaceship..." - cutting a long story short, he realises he's living in a Universe. Being Dumb Monkey that he is, he keeps repeating the same old mistake: filling the gaps in his knowledge with a god.

i would ease up on the banana custard if I were you

[InOne]

I may have linked to this subject before, but the Anthropic Cosmological Principal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle) was derived by atheists and was effectively the Teleological argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument)for the existance of God.

Quite ironic that!

They were both refuted ages ago.

[Angus]

It is just as impossible to refute the existence of god as to prove it. Fact.

A human being has no definitive method of arriving at an answer, since there are so many factors that shape our beliefs and values; life experiences; upbringing; physical and/or mental attributes or lack of them; economic situation, psychological and emotional impacts on the psyche of life events; cultural and social background etc etc. The permutations of all these factors are infinitessimal and our unique and individual permutation will shape our world view and determine what we do and do not believe in.

Philosophical questions such as "is there a god?" therefore have no definitive answer that can be proven, so we must accept that our faith, or lack of it, is totally subjective and unproveable.

[WOMBAI]

Only in the mind!

[InOne]

It is just as impossible to refute the existence of god as to prove it. Fact.

A human being has no definitive method of arriving at an answer, since there are so many factors that shape our beliefs and values; life experiences; upbringing; physical and/or mental attributes or lack of them; economic situation, psychological and emotional impacts on the psyche of life events; cultural and social background etc etc. The permutations of all these factors are infinitessimal and our unique and individual permutation will shape our world view and determine what we do and do not believe in.

Philosophical questions such as "is there a god?" therefore have no definitive answer that can be proven, so we must accept that our faith, or lack of it, is totally subjective and unproveable.

Far more evidence to say there isn't than is. But yes, can't argue with faith, it's like talking to a brick wall.