Face Veil Row in UK Schools : Ofsted taking Control at last

[arista]

Reported on all news and radio.

Strict Muslim Schools in trouble,
might be single sex schools

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3417578/Ofsted-inspectors-ordered-mark-schools-allowing-pupils-wear-veil-harming-education.html

[JoshBB]

I think students need to be able to see the face of their teacher, so this is fine imo.

[Crimson Dynamo]

why have we got "strict Muslim schools" in the UK?

holy mother of god

:facepalm:

[arista]

why have we got "strict Muslim schools" in the UK?

holy mother of god

:facepalm:


New Labour Tony Blair's fault

[Kizzy]

why have we got "strict Muslim schools" in the UK?

holy mother of god

:facepalm:


What a strange phrase for a self proclaimed atheist, all this religious jibber jabber has an unfortunate effect doesn't it? :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

What a strange phrase for a self proclaimed atheist, all this religious jibber jabber has an unfortunate effect doesn't it? :(

i was being ironic

innit

[Kizzy]

i was being ironic

innit

Oh, I thought they'd gotten to you then ...phew.
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

[Vicky.]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

[DemolitionRed]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

For security reasons?

[Vicky.]

For security reasons?

Mainly yeah..but also I do feel Muslim women are forced into wearing them sometimes too.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

:clap1:

disgusting oppression and superstition of a cult

[empire]

its time we get rid of religious schools, they have no place in today's world,

[Crimson Dynamo]

its time we get rid of religious schools, they have no place in today's world,

:clap1:

[Vicky.]

its time we get rid of religious schools, they have no place in today's world,

I actually agree with this too..religion and education should be kept separate. Also RE should focus on many different religions rather than mainly one or two. Our school was predominately Christian though it was not a faith school or anything, and nearly all of our RE lessons were learning about the bible and stuff. I would have much preferred learning about more interesting things...I had my grandma to teach me about jesus and such :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I actually agree with this too..religion and education should be kept separate. Also RE should focus on many different religions rather than mainly one or two. Our school was predominately Christian though it was not a faith school or anything, and nearly all of our RE lessons were learning about the bible and stuff. I would have much preferred learning about more interesting things...I had my grandma to teach me about jesus and such :laugh:

we should teach our children that all religions are cults and wrong, we should tell them why religions develops and teach them the best science we know

all children should be aware that ALL gods are false

[DemolitionRed]

Mainly yeah..but also I do feel Muslim women are forced into wearing them sometimes too.

I agree with you about the security issues. There has to be a time and place where women can be asked to downsize to the hijab (headscarf) for identification reasons. I also imagine it would be very difficult to read and write whilst wearing the burqa in school and quite difficult for the teacher to see if the school girl is actually paying attention.

I also think some women are forced to wear the burqa but a lot aren't and if we take away choice from the women who choose to wear it, that makes us as repressive as the husbands who force it on their wives.

[rubymoo]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

I agree with this^^^

its time we get rid of religious schools, they have no place in today's world,

And this^^^

I do however think that religion should be respected, but to me school is school they're there to learn.

I also think there needs to some sort of re-education for immigrants into our country, so that they understand our way of life and that everyone in this country has equal rights and freedom, if they can't abide by our rules then bye bye!

It's almost as if we are bending so far to the left, we're going to meet with the far right!

[Ammi]

I actually agree with this too..religion and education should be kept separate. Also RE should focus on many different religions rather than mainly one or two. Our school was predominately Christian though it was not a faith school or anything, and nearly all of our RE lessons were learning about the bible and stuff. I would have much preferred learning about more interesting things...I had my grandma to teach me about jesus and such :laugh:

..it does actually Vick, focus on many religions/cultures etc in a lot of schools and has a focus on each religion covered of tolerance and non prejudice of all religions and cultures...

[kirklancaster]

ERROR

[kirklancaster]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Surprisingly perhaps :hehe: I agree with you.

[jennyjuniper]

I still think the coverall veil should be banned everywhere in this country, and I don't particularly care how many disagree with me either.

I do too.If people want to wear veils or burkahs then let them do it in a country where that is the norm.

[DemolitionRed]

I would still defend the right of any woman to decide for herself how she wants to dress, and to learn for herself why her religion requires such things and whether she thinks this is valid.

Banning a garment? Surely that just makes us look like the oppressors?

Regardless of our thoughts on this subject, I don't think 'now' is the right time. Muslims are really feeling the hate at the moment and Cameron appears to be piggybacking on that hate to rush in new rules.

[Marsh.]

i was being ironic

innit

But this is about Muslims.

sacred sister of allah would've been much more effective. :smug:

[smudgie]

Stick to the uniform code.
If it's a none Muslim school then it wouldn't normally be part of the uniform.
If on the other band it is a Muslim school then I can't see a problem with it.:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

Stick to the uniform code.
If it's a none Muslim school then it wouldn't normally be part of the uniform.
If on the other band it is a Muslim school then I can't see a problem with it.:shrug:

:clap1:

[user104658]

why have we got "strict Muslim schools" in the UK?

holy mother of god

:facepalm:

For the same reason that we have (seemingly endless numbers of) "strict Catholic schools" in the UK.

Of course, in my opinion we shouldn't have either. Religion is the antithesis of education. However I wouldn't advocate banning one until we're willing to ban all.

[Cherie]

For the same reason that we have (seemingly endless numbers of) "strict Catholic schools" in the UK.

Of course, in my opinion we shouldn't have either. Religion is the antithesis of education. However I wouldn't advocate banning one until we're willing to ban all.

Not sure why you just pointed out catholic schools which incidentally cover all faiths in their RE lessons, as there as just as many strict jewish and church of England schools. Do strict muslim schools touch on other religions in their RE lessons do you know?

[user104658]

Not sure why you just pointed out catholic schools which incidentally cover all faiths in their RE lessons, as there as just as many strict jewish and church of England schools. Do strict muslim schools touch on other religions in their RE lessons do you know?

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally and briefly, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.

They could cover the social and political consequences of religion more thoroughly in History, Sociology, Politics... etc.

[Cherie]

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.


Its not irrelevant at all, muslim schools should be required to promote inclusion like all other schools have too, I would like to know from someone who actually knows if this happens

[Cherie]

I "just" pointed out Catholic schools as they are (by far) the most widespread faith-based schools in the UK. Obviously I am aware that there are other faith-based schools. I don't believe there should be any.

I neither know nor care whether Muslim schools cover other religions in the religious education classes. It's irrelevant. Schools should touch on each religion equally and briefly, as historical fiction and superstition, along with dragons and the Minotaur.

They could cover the social and political consequences of religion more thoroughly in History, Sociology, Politics... etc.

No body forces any parent to send their school to a faith school, why would you want do deny this right to parents who want to :umm2:

[user104658]

No body forces any parent to send their school to a faith school, why would you want do deny this right to parents who want to :umm2:
Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

[Cherie]

Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

Thats fine its your opinion and you can choose to bring up your child as you see fit, I don't see why your opinion should have an impact on whether faith schools exist or not, it's nothing to do with you as you have chosen a different path :shrug:

[user104658]

Thats fine its your opinion and you can choose to bring up your child as you see fit, I don't see why your opinion should have an impact on whether faith schools exist or not, it's nothing to do with you as you have chosen a different path :shrug:

The world around me and my children affects their upbringing as much as my choices... it has everything "to do with me", and everyone else.

However, you are correct, my opinion has no impact on whether faith schools exist or not. As is evident in their continued existence.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't see a need to ban faith schools.I do think though that with the rise in Islamic schools that they do need to be closely monitored to make sure they are providing a balanced view of the world and not preaching hate.

The reason i don't see the need to ban them is that i went to a C of E school.

We were taught zero religion at all during lesson time apart from RE of course in which we learned about many religions.We even celebrated Diwali and other religious festivals to learn about different traditions.

The only religious things we did were the odd church visit at Harvest and morning assembly.
During my whole time there i did'nt believe in religion and never have since.It had no effect on me other than educated me.It was a very good school full of normal kids of differing faiths.
So i can say that i had a good experience and rounded education in a faith school.

As for the veil.I would let any public space such as shops choose whether they ban the veil and i would ban it from teaching,banks,airports,courts or anywhere where it is a security risk.

[AnnieK]

My son goes to a C of E school. Nothing to do with religion (he is not christened although I am, I decided to let him choose when he is old enough), the school just happened to have the best OFSTED results in the area I live and is close to where we live so in time he will be able to walk there himself and has a good circle of friends close by. Although its a faith school and he is only in reception, he has already been taught about other cultures, faiths and beliefs and so is getting a pretty rounded idea of other faiths.

[AnnieK]

Because I don't think children are their parents possessions and, therefore, I don't think that parents have the right to indoctrinate a child into a religion of their choosing before they're old enough to have developed abstract thought and be able to think it through rationally for themselves.

Just out of interest...have you told your children that "God" doesn't exist?

[user104658]

Just out of interest...have you told your children that "God" doesn't exist?
I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

[Cherie]

I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

What about Father Christmas/ tooth fairy/Easter Bunny? Have they been outed?

[DemolitionRed]

Faith schools have to teach the full curriculum but that doesn't mean they always do.

Stephen Pollard writes:
'"We have reported so regularly on these schools that do not teach science, speak entirely in Yiddish and operate in buildings that do not conform to basic health and safety standards (and are often used illegally without planning permission) that I sometimes worry we bore our readers with yet more examples".

He continues: "One former pupil is quoted in the documentary as saying that the schools try to ensure that boys lack any knowledge which might enable them to leave their strictly Orthodox community: "I was told terrible things about non-Jews. In order to keep such a vast number of people enclosed, they are indoctrinating from a very young age that everything outside is bad and evil. We didn't come out with anything we could use in daily life or in the future."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/stephenpollard/100279814/jewish-schools-must-teach-a-full-curriculum-or-they-must-be-shut-down-its-as-simple-as-that/

Of course we have illegal Muslim schools too but its doubtful we have illegal Christian schools.

[user104658]

What about Father Christmas/ tooth fairy/Easter Bunny? Have they been outed?
Let's not be silly; there is a vast difference between childhood fantasy and religious teachings.

If it helps, she also believes in Harry Potter? And that she is a tragic mudblood stuck with muggle parents, who will be whisked off to Hogwarts when she's 11.

That said, I have never answered the question "Is Santa real?" with anything other than "Well, what do YOU think?". I haven't and won't ever say "Yes. He is real."

[Cherie]

Let's not be silly; there is a vast difference between childhood fantasy and religious teachings.

If it helps, she also believes in Harry Potter? And that she is a tragic mudblood stuck with muggle parents, who will be whisked off to Hogwarts when she's 11.

That said, I have never answered the question "Is Santa real?" with anything other than "Well, what do YOU think?". I haven't and won't ever say "Yes. He is real."

It was a genuine question I was just interested, I know some parents who told their children there was no Santa etc so I was curious :joker:

[Anaesthesia]

I've told her the truth; that no one can be 100% sure, that it's statistically highly unlikely and that I personally am not religious. The rest I'm sure she'll figure out when she has an adult mind capable of comprehending the question.

Which is the major issue for me. Children's minds are not capable of abstract thought, period, they can't possibly be understanding the philosophical nature of "the creation question" and therefore anything you teach them as fact will be absorbed as fact without any critical thinking. And that is indoctrination, in a nutshell.

See. I am adopted, and my parents had to promise to have me baptised, which they did. My late father always believed in the value in talking; I was well versed in philosophy from a very young age, we frequently talked about reality and superstition, and faith. And I 100% believe in the power of faith.

So in place of teaching sectarian religion, could we not just put philosophy on the curriculum? 30 years on I still regularly ponder cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am...yet there is real strength in a shared energy of faith.

I think kids would benefit greatly from being shown how to think for themselves.

There was obviously never any pressure on me to indoctrinate my children into a religion, yet I have encouraged them to be spiritual. And above all, to THINK.

It's worked with one of them, the other is a complete idiot :P

[Anaesthesia]

But back OT, really get out of here with burqas. This is the UK, feel free to wear them in a Muslim school, don't expect to wear them in an English school. Because we are still English, and we do have our own values which you should abide by, thank you.

Just out of interest, the Holy Joes from my local town (I was the grammar school nerd) had quite a bad reputation for being naughty. Even though they were apparently taught that they oughtn't sit on a boy's lap without a Yellow Pages cushion.

[Ammi]

See. I am adopted, and my parents had to promise to have me baptised, which they did. My late father always believed in the value in talking; I was well versed in philosophy from a very young age, we frequently talked about reality and superstition, and faith. And I 100% believe in the power of faith.

So in place of teaching sectarian religion, could we not just put philosophy on the curriculum? 30 years on I still regularly ponder cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am...yet there is real strength in a shared energy of faith.

I think kids would benefit greatly from being shown how to think for themselves.

There was obviously never any pressure on me to indoctrinate my children into a religion, yet I have encouraged them to be spiritual. And above all, to THINK.

It's worked with one of them, the other is a complete idiot :P

..your dad sounds a bit like mine was Anaesthesia, he always used to say things like 'there are many truths', because if I had a strong opinion n something..he would give me another 'truth' or a few other truths, in the different ways and perspectives that things can be looked at, which are all needed to form opinions, I personally think/if that makes sense..and yes, talking/communication was the most important thing to him and I think of anyone that I have ever known in my life...(obviously I could be biased here..)...he was the least judgemental and without prejudice person....dads are great, eh...

..anyays, philosophy is taught in school, not only in entire lessons but also stretching across other lessons as well and very much in RE lessons...but things like Art..?...paintings and art works are discussed..what are they thinking in that painting/what were the artist's thoughts/what do you think and are what are you seeing.../feelings emotions etc and many things that are then applied to themselves and their own friendships/environment/any problems they may have etc....so there is very much philosophy in schools, right from primary school....

...on the topic of banning religion in schools, I personally don't generally believe in 'ban' or 'taboo' as an answer to anything..because it's all information and people/children should have access to information and especially in schools, which will give a balance of information/of different religions and cultures....with a worry of indoctrination, well surely without that balance offered in school, indoctrination could be more likely to happen, if a child was only offered one influence, the family home one...there again, it's all offering information for children to make educated and informed decisions in their lives, is all...maybe some schools do indoctrinate but very many don't...we tend to fear things that we don't understand/as humans, so taking an understanding away in banning, would just for me increase fears/increase prejudice/increase intolerance..rather than it be a solution to anything....

...the burqa...yes, I think that school uniform policy for children should be applied to all and that's something that is agreed by a parent in a home/school agreement when they make their school choice...the school also obviously has to make it clear in their policy that it's not an acceptable code of dress...

[Kizzy]

There isn't the money in philosophy there is in religion, or the appropriate level of social control.

[kirklancaster]

There isn't the money in philosophy there is in religion, or the appropriate level of social control.

:facepalm:

[Anaesthesia]

..your dad sounds a bit like mine was Anaesthesia, he always used to say things like 'there are many truths', because if I had a strong opinion n something..he would give me another 'truth' or a few other truths, in the different ways and perspectives that things can be looked at, which are all needed to form opinions, I personally think/if that makes sense..and yes, talking/communication was the most important thing to him and I think of anyone that I have ever known in my life...(obviously I could be biased here..)...he was the least judgemental and without prejudice person....dads are great, eh...
.

Aye, Ammi, they are.