Why are Gods always invisible?

[Ammi]

Yeah like those suicide bombers, what a waste of life by being so brain washed into thinking that this wasn't "the real life" and if this isn't "the real life" why bother with all the fighting and trying to convert people in the name of God anyway?

...many of those are victims, aren't they, as much as those that are their targets..the victims of those who hate to an extreme but aren't brave enough to take their own lives, religion is just a tool for them, a tool of hate...extreme hate would exist without any religion, it would just have to find another tool...

[Niamh.]

On the flip side, you've got countless volunteers with the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, going into war zones to help people. The Salvation Army raising money for refugees, the Church Army doing the same... No one's all good or all bad, human beings are a bit of both, whether they're religious or not.

Yeah that wasn't really my point though, I think people who were that way inclined would help out people in need regardless of whether they were doing it in the name of God or not, I'm not sure so many people would volunteer to blow themselves up unless they truly believed in their cause though and that they would be rewarded in Heaven for it :laugh:

[user104658]

Hitler wasn't particularly religious. Religious people don't have the monopoly on badness... I think you'll find that's humans in general.

I agree with that but, the thing is, I think it will continue to be humans in general until we start to attain some higher form of clarity, a less chaotic concept of existence based on logic and reason and not faith, superstition and fear. It's not that all bad people necessarily "are people of faith" - but they are products of a world that is intellectually stifled BY widespread faith.

[Ammi]

On the flip side, you've got countless volunteers with the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, going into war zones to help people. The Salvation Army raising money for refugees, the Church Army doing the same... No one's all good or all bad, human beings are a bit of both, whether they're religious or not.

...yeah exactly, religious/non religious, most people in the world have balance, it's only the very few extremes that can cause hateful things..and again, whether having a religious faith or not...

[Ammi]

Hitler wasn't particularly religious. Religious people don't have the monopoly on badness... I think you'll find that's humans in general.

..also with that, I definitely wouldn't say that the Jewish people in those concentration camps were anything like people of weak spirit, which some believe of those with religious faith../for them to endure what they did and for those who survived, the very opposite of 'weakness' in humans/mental weakness...

[Livia]

Yeah that wasn't really my point though, I think people who were that way inclined would help out people in need regardless of whether they were doing it in the name of God or not, I'm not sure so many people would volunteer to blow themselves up unless they truly believed in their cause though and that they would be rewarded in Heaven for it :laugh:

Kamikaze pilots in WW2 blew themselves up for the Emperor.

Some people are good, some people are bad. Religion is not the root of all evil on earth. Humans are.

[Niamh.]

Kamikaze pilots in WW2 blew themselves up for the Emperor.

Some people are good, some people are bad. Religion is not the root of all evil on earth. Humans are.

Yes but Religion was created by humans though, just seems like a good way to control the masses to me. So many rules that make little to no sense...all man made in "Gods" name

[user104658]

Religion is not the root of all evil on earth. Humans are.

This is somewhat meaningless if you believe that religion is an entirely human construct.

[Kazanne]

What I've never understood about religion/God (mainly a religious God I guess) is why he/she/it would want people to believe in him/her/it based on faith and some ancient unreliable stories? If he/she/it created us as relatively intelligent beings why would he want people to waste the life he/she/it gave us worshiping him/her/it blindly and fighting over who is right or wrong or whatever or wasting our lives trying to prove or disprove their existence?

The way I see it Niamh is we were given free will,what we chose to do with that free will is entirely our doing,I believe in God but I am not on my knees every hour praying,I do try and live a good life,it doesn't always work,I curse and swear and have been a swine in my time,I don't go to church every week,I do pray,but quietly to myself. I think we chose to believe in God,not him wanting us to believe,and I am sure God must be sighing in disbelief at some of the atrocities we are committing on the planet,and whether you believe or not if you look at the 10 commandments surely that cant be a bad way to live,if people kinda followed that the world would be a much better place,I don't think I am wasting my life believing in God,God is just there.

[Crimson Dynamo]

This is somewhat meaningless if you believe that religion is an entirely human construct.

and of course it is

Its a convenient way that us clever humans have constructed to use as a get out of jail free card


just shout alah snackbar and bobs your uncle

[Kazanne]

Yeah that wasn't really my point though, I think people who were that way inclined would help out people in need regardless of whether they were doing it in the name of God or not, I'm not sure so many people would volunteer to blow themselves up unless they truly believed in their cause though and that they would be rewarded in Heaven for it :laugh:

Humans blow themselves up as they have been brainwashed by other humans,to believe they will be rewarded.

[Niamh.]

The way I see it Niamh is we were given free will,what we chose to do with that free will is entirely our doing,I believe in God but I am not on my knees every hour praying,I do try and live a good life,it doesn't always work,I curse and swear and have been a swine in my time,I don't go to church every week,I do pray,but quietly to myself. I think we chose to believe in God,not him wanting us to believe,and I am sure God must be sighing in disbelief at some of the atrocities we are committing on the planet,and whether you believe or not if you look at the 10 commandments surely that cant be a bad way to live,if people kinda followed that the world would be a much better place,I don't think I am wasting my life believing in God,God is just there.

That's absolutely fair enough Kazanne. The 10 Commandments were written by man though imo :laugh:

[Kazanne]

and of course it is

Its a convenient way that us clever humans have constructed to use as a get out of jail free card


just shout alah snackbar and bobs your uncle

I don't think humans are that clever are they LT ? we are slowly destroying the very place we live.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You shall have no other Gods but me. - bit controlling and no way to start a relationship
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it. - again with the control
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. - thats 3 you have wasted now with "all about me " demands
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy. - what does that mean ffs
Respect your father and mother. - yes thats better and a bit obvs
You must not commit murder. - no sh1t sherlock, that is a given
You must not commit adultery. - good again but lets face it, its not gonna happen for lots
You must not steal. - yes that is a good one but I think us humans have worked that one out
You must not give false evidence against your neighbour. - again its good but for the sake of a harmonious life we kind of worked that out
You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. - well being a wee bit envious he has a better car is gonna happen so soz
You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour. - yeah we covered that in 9




I mean there is a couple of good one but frankly its stuff most humans worked out a long time ago before middle eastern religious cults

[Kazanne]

That's absolutely fair enough Kazanne. The 10 Commandments were written by man though imo :laugh:

It depends what you believe again Niamh:hehe: whoever wrote them came from a good place,some also believe they were the word of God,there are things that scientists cannot prove and one of them is what caused the 'big bang' that supposedly created the universe, scientists cant make a single blade of grass.so someone/something had to , if science hasn't got an answer,what is it?

[Niamh.]

It depends what you believe again Niamh:hehe: whoever wrote them came from a good place,some also believe they were the word of God,there are things that scientists cannot prove and one of them is what caused the 'big bang' that supposedly created the universe, scientists cant make a single blade of grass.so someone/something had to , if science hasn't got an answer,what is it?

I have absolutely no idea..............and neither does anyone else but what i do know is that the universe is so big we don't even know where it begins or ends or if it does ever end and so i think it's a bit naive to think that in the grand scheme of things we're actually that important. I have often heard you say that us humans are awful/animals are better etc so if you think that why would you think a God/Gods views us as something so special? More special than anything else that might be out there?

[user104658]

It depends what you believe again Niamh:hehe: whoever wrote them came from a good place,some also believe they were the word of God,there are things that scientists cannot prove and one of them is what caused the 'big bang' that supposedly created the universe, scientists cant make a single blade of grass.so someone/something had to , if science hasn't got an answer,what is it?

And so we come to what humans have done throughout the ages... the explanation for primitive Sun gods, Rain gods, Thunder gods, and moving onwards to more modern Gods...

"If you don't know the answer, just make something up."

Human scientists are primitive and limited by what I can only assume is a very limited human intelligence. Yes, we're the most intelligent life-forms on this planet. In universal terms, I think it's safe to assume that we're not all that intelligent at all.

In other words, the fact that human minds don't have the scientific answers to immensely complex questions (yet, or possibly ever) does not automatically mean that god - ANY god - is real. It certainly doesn't mean that a pre-defined God described in a human book is real.

[Ammi]

Kamikaze pilots in WW2 blew themselves up for the Emperor.

Some people are good, some people are bad. Religion is not the root of all evil on earth. Humans are.

..the intolerance of humans..?...

[Crimson Dynamo]

GMO grass is a reality

[Kazanne]

I have absolutely no idea..............and neither does anyone else but what i do know is that the universe is so big we don't even know where it begins or ends or if it does ever end and so i think it's a bit naive to think that in the grand scheme of things we're actually that important. I have often heard you say that us humans are awful/animals are better etc so if you think that why would you think a God/Gods views us as something so special? More special than anything else that might be out there?

I think there is a test in life as to whether we are special or not , some people are special, but a lot aren't they are greedy , cruel and nasty all of their own choosing , those are the people I prefer animals to, and I am sure God is not happy with the way we have abused our power , I am sure when we pop our clogs we will get suitably chastised :laugh:

[Niamh.]

I think there is a test in life as to whether we are special or not , some people are special, but a lot aren't they are greedy , cruel and nasty all of their own choosing , those are the people I prefer animals to, and I am sure God is not happy with the way we have abused our power , I am sure when we pop our clogs we will get suitably chastised :laugh:

hhmmm ok then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that :laugh:

[Marsh.]

Yeah because those commandments were so obvious to mankind thousands of years ago.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah because those commandments were so obvious to mankind thousands of years ago.

they were to the Celts the Greeks the Romans and the Chinese

even a caveman knew how to look after his family and that killing neighbours was probably going to lead to reprisals


common sense innit

[Niamh.]

they were to the Celts the Greeks the Romans and the Chinese

even a caveman knew how to look after his family and that killing neighbours was probably going to lead to reprisals


common sense innit

He was always coveting his neighbours Club though :nono:

[user104658]

He was always coveting his neighbours Club though :nono:

Niamh! There is nothing wrong with a caveman coveting his neighbour's "club"! They were progressive and it was considered perfectly acceptable, they weren't held back by the dubious moral contraints of organised religion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He was always coveting his neighbours Club though :nono:

no that was his wife as he had rather a big one

:hehe:

[Niamh.]

no that was his wife as he had rather a big one

:hehe:

:smug:

[Northern Monkey]

Eh?

That's called different people believing different things.

I think you've confused yourself.

Me believing A and you believing B isn't proof of either one of us being wrong. But this is oversimplifying a very complex topic.

No i've confused you:laugh:

But which is the real true religion A(many gods) or B(one almighty god) both cannot be the answer.They are a contradiction.There is either one or many.I believe there are non but for a believer either A or B can only be correct not both.So if A is wrong then why can't B also be wrong?This is why i'm not religious.All religions past and present are equal in authenticity to me.It is the most logical outcome.

[Niamh.]

No i've confused you:laugh:

But which is the real true religion A(many gods) or B(one almighty god) both cannot be the answer.They are a contradiction.There is either one or many.I believe there are non but for a believer either A or B can only be correct not both.So if A is wrong then why can't B also be wrong?This is why i'm not religious.All religions past and present are equal in authenticity to me.It is the most logical outcome.

Yeah that's a good point, why is the Christian God any more valid than say Norse Gods?

***Hoping for Thor to be real tbh :fc:

[VanessaFeltz.]

Because gods are asheamed of what they have done

[Livia]

Because gods are asheamed of what they have done

When it should really be men who are ashamed.

[Livia]

I wonder that people who aren't religious don't realise that their constant conversations about how people who believe in God, believe in fairy tales, and how all religions are the same as say, Norse Gods, and how people cling to God as a kind of emotional crutch. It's like you are in possession of some facts to which I'm not privy. And you're not. I'm really surprised that no one realises how insulting it is to people like myself who do have a religion and yet don't ever push my religion on any of you, and would never.

[Niamh.]

I wonder that people who aren't religious don't realise that their constant conversations about how people who believe in God, believe in fairy tales, and how all religions are the same as say, Norse Gods, and how people cling to God as a kind of emotional crutch. It's like you are in possession of some facts to which I'm not privy. And you're not. I'm really surprised that no one realises how insulting it is to people like myself who do have a religion and yet don't ever push my religion on any of you, and would never.

No you haven't Livia but Religion was most certainly pushed on me so I have every right to comment on it tyvm

[Livia]

No you haven't Livia but Religion was most certainly pushed on me so I have every right to comment on it tyvm

Comment, yes. But the piss taking nature of all the religious threads are a bit much. Having religion pushed on you doesn't give you the right to lump all religious people together as if we're all lacking something in the brains department.

I see plenty of respect on here for people with no religion and their right to their opinion. A little respect back the other way would be lovely.

[user104658]

I wonder that people who aren't religious don't realise that their constant conversations about how people who believe in God, believe in fairy tales, and how all religions are the same as say, Norse Gods, and how people cling to God as a kind of emotional crutch. It's like you are in possession of some facts to which I'm not privy. And you're not. I'm really surprised that no one realises how insulting it is to people like myself who do have a religion and yet don't ever push my religion on any of you, and would never.

I realise that some people can find these things insulting, but then, I don't consider the risk of causing personal offense to be a barrier to having (any) conversation or debate. It registers a flat zero on the TS scale of important stuff. I'd be VERY surprised if you're losing any sleep over it Livia, or being genuinely harmed in any way more than a very mild and quickly disregarded sting, so it's a bit of a non-issue really. Such claims of "taking offense" usually feel, to me, like a way to dishonestly shut down the discussion... which just isn't kosher ( ... :hehe: )

[Livia]

I realise that some people can find these things insulting, but then, I don't consider the risk of causing personal offense to be a barrier to having (any) conversation or debate. It registers a flat zero on the TS scale of important stuff. I'd be VERY surprised if you're losing any sleep over it Livia, or being genuinely harmed in any way more than a very mild and quickly disregarded sting, so it's a bit of a non-issue really. Such claims of "taking offense" usually feel, to me, like a way to dishonestly shut down the discussion... which just isn't kosher ( ... :hehe: )

What all those words mean is that you not only reserve the right to insult me but also to quantify the how insulted I might be by it.

I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, I'm asking you to stop the piss-taking because that's what all these discussions dissolve into - a massive piss-take. You don't believe. I accept and respect that. Such a shame that's not a two-way street.

[Niamh.]

Comment, yes. But the piss taking nature of all the religious threads are a bit much. Having religion pushed on you doesn't give you the right to lump all religious people together as if we're all lacking something in the brains department.

I see plenty of respect on here for people with no religion and their right to their opinion. A little respect back the other way would be lovely.

I'm sorry but I don't respect religion, those are my actual views. I have never once commented on Religious people by the way, I've only ever spoke about Religion as a whole or God/Gods

[Crimson Dynamo]

What all those words mean is that you not only reserve the right to insult me but also to quantify the how insulted I might be by it.

I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, I'm asking you to stop the piss-taking because that's what all these discussions dissolve into - a massive piss-take. You don't believe. I accept and respect that. Such a shame that's not a two-way street.


You have to realise that the vast majority of people see religion as one piss take

I dont see any difference in believing in gods as believing in the Loch Ness Monster and if i made a thread about that it would be full of jokes and piss takes and i am sure you would join in

[Marsh.]

they were to the Celts the Greeks the Romans and the Chinese

even a caveman knew how to look after his family and that killing neighbours was probably going to lead to reprisals


common sense innit

Yeah, the Romans were the epitome of morals. :omgno:

[Marsh.]

You have to realise that the vast majority of people see religion as one piss take

I dont see any difference in believing in gods as believing in the Loch Ness Monster and if i made a thread about that it would be full of jokes and piss takes and i am sure you would join in

It's already a proven fact that sightings of the Loch Ness monster were u peeing in the Scottish rivers.

[Niamh.]

It's already a proven fact that sightings of the Loch Ness monster were u peeing in the Scottish rivers.

Oh Marsh he's going to take that as some kind of compliment you know :omgno:

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's already a proven fact that sightings of the Loch Ness monster were u peeing in the Scottish rivers.

why thankyou

:douf:

[user104658]

What all those words mean is that you not only reserve the right to insult me but also to quantify the how insulted I might be by it.

I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, I'm asking you to stop the piss-taking because that's what all these discussions dissolve into - a massive piss-take. You don't believe. I accept and respect that. Such a shame that's not a two-way street.

I reserve the right to make comments that are not directed at anyone in particular, but might cause offense to some people for various reasons, yes. I don't reserve the right to quantify how insulted you are, you can be as insulted by it as you please, I was guessing that it probably doesn't define your day but whether it does or not is entirely irrelevant... because I don't decide what I will or won't say based on whether or not others might or might not be offended by it. Which was the point.

As for piss-taking... I honestly think that's subjective. I think LT has maybe been baiting a bit, but that's not really my business. Comparing organised religions to fairytales, dragons, ancient mythology such as the Greek and Norse gods I can appreciate might FEEL like a piss take to a religious person - in a "how can my religion be compared to something obviously fictional??" sort of way - but I'm not piss taking. People who follow and believe the words in the bible and people who follow and believe the words in any other fictional text genuinely and 100% fall under the same banner for me, as a non-religious person. It's not intended to be mocking, it's the best way to illustrate a stance. Deliberately avoiding saying "piss-takey" things like that about religion suggests an elevated status for religion... which suggests an acceptance that they could be true and might not be fiction... which is not my stance. They are simply as fictional as any other fiction, and have exactly the same likelihood of actually turning out to contain truth :shrug:.

[user104658]

Oh Marsh he's going to take that as some kind of compliment you know :omgno:

Those sightings were thought to be Bessie, Nessie's teeny... tiny little sister.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/28/article-0-1A8D1DB1000005DC-668_634x478.jpg

[user104658]

...but yeah it was LT's nob.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Can we keep my knob out of SD please

:fist:

For Gods sake

[Kazanne]

Comment, yes. But the piss taking nature of all the religious threads are a bit much. Having religion pushed on you doesn't give you the right to lump all religious people together as if we're all lacking something in the brains department.

I see plenty of respect on here for people with no religion and their right to their opinion. A little respect back the other way would be lovely.

:clap1::clap1:

[Drew.]

You have to realise that the vast majority of people see religion as one piss take

I dont see any difference in believing in gods as believing in the Loch Ness Monster and if i made a thread about that it would be full of jokes and piss takes and i am sure you would join in

I don't believe in gods or religions but that's not really a valid example. Thats like comparing believing in Aliens to believing in a god. Nodody worships or dedicates their life sacrificing things for Aliens or the Loch Ness monster.

[the truth]

You have to realise that the vast majority of people see religion as one piss take

I dont see any difference in believing in gods as believing in the Loch Ness Monster and if i made a thread about that it would be full of jokes and piss takes and i am sure you would join inthat is simply untrue, this site does not represent the masses, thankfully

[the truth]

I reserve the right to make comments that are not directed at anyone in particular, but might cause offense to some people for various reasons, yes. I don't reserve the right to quantify how insulted you are, you can be as insulted by it as you please, I was guessing that it probably doesn't define your day but whether it does or not is entirely irrelevant... because I don't decide what I will or won't say based on whether or not others might or might not be offended by it. Which was the point.

As for piss-taking... I honestly think that's subjective. I think LT has maybe been baiting a bit, but that's not really my business. Comparing organised religions to fairytales, dragons, ancient mythology such as the Greek and Norse gods I can appreciate might FEEL like a piss take to a religious person - in a "how can my religion be compared to something obviously fictional??" sort of way - but I'm not piss taking. People who follow and believe the words in the bible and people who follow and believe the words in any other fictional text genuinely and 100% fall under the same banner for me, as a non-religious person. It's not intended to be mocking, it's the best way to illustrate a stance. Deliberately avoiding saying "piss-takey" things like that about religion suggests an elevated status for religion... which suggests an acceptance that they could be true and might not be fiction... which is not my stance. They are simply as fictional as any other fiction, and have exactly the same likelihood of actually turning out to contain truth :shrug:.

So its subjective to insult religious people, but offensive to offend other people? total hypocrisy. Theres nothing constructive or respectful about this or any other Christian or religion bashing thread, its shameful. threads mocking homosexuality would soon be pulled down. Respect works both ways.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't believe in gods or religions but that's not really a valid example. Thats like comparing believing in Aliens to believing in a god. Nodody worships or dedicates their life sacrificing things for Aliens or the Loch Ness monster.

people sacrifice and dedicate their lives to all sorts of things. I would imagine that there are millions of star wars fans who are far more dedicated and know about their subject better than most anglicans for example

I bet the average train spotter knows a lot more about trains than say the average uk christian knows about the bible.

I have seen far more dedication in football fans than i ever did when i was involved in the church.

How you demonstrate your belief is not my point and just because you are pious, dedicated or devoted does not make it any more real

[user104658]

So its subjective to insult religious people, but offensive to offend other people? total hypocrisy. Theres nothing constructive or respectful about this or any other Christian or religion bashing thread, its shameful. threads mocking homosexuality would soon be pulled down. Respect works both ways.
No, it's wrong to make comments to someone with the direct intention of causing that person offense.

It is acceptable to debate and converse and express one's thoughts, and not have to censor oneself, in fear that those comments will indirectly cause someone offense.

My advice, in full, to anyone who finds themselves upset or offended by any online debate about something they happen to like or believe... Is to either grow a thicker skin, or avoid discussions where they might find themselves "offended".

I flat out refuse to consider certain topics of conversation "off limits" incase they "hurt someone's feelings". We're not 5 years old, ffs. We can surely handle it. If we can't, we have bigger problems to worry about.

[Drew.]

people sacrifice and dedicate their lives to all sorts of things. I would imagine that there are millions of star wars fans who are far more dedicated and know about their subject better than most anglicans for example

I bet the average train spotter knows a lot more about trains than say the average uk christian knows about the bible.

I have seen far more dedication in football fans than i ever did when i was involved in the church.

How you demonstrate your belief is not my point and just because you are pious, dedicated or devoted does not make it any more real

You're taking away the worshiping and mental side to it all and just focusing on the sacrificing/dedication part.. if we're talking about dedication alone then that could be compared to anything. I'm a huge football fan but it's more of an obsession and a love towards the game rather than a personal belief.. my love and obsession for a game can't be compared to a religion. My knowledge on religions isn't good by all means but i have friends who believe in certain things and its not a hobby to them like sports/movies or whatever else, it's a way of life for them.

[Marsh.]

No i've confused you:laugh:

But which is the real true religion A(many gods) or B(one almighty god) both cannot be the answer.They are a contradiction.There is either one or many.I believe there are non but for a believer either A or B can only be correct not both.So if A is wrong then why can't B also be wrong?This is why i'm not religious.All religions past and present are equal in authenticity to me.It is the most logical outcome.

No, no. You're the one confusing yourself. :laugh:

Who said both are "true"? :conf: Respecting someone else's right to their own beliefs is not a contradiction, no more than respecting someone's different opinion to your own.

For a believer either A or B can only be correct? Yes, that's why most religious people tend to follow one religion. Have you met a Hindu Christian or something? :laugh:

[Marsh.]

people sacrifice and dedicate their lives to all sorts of things. I would imagine that there are millions of star wars fans who are far more dedicated and know about their subject better than most anglicans for example

I bet the average train spotter knows a lot more about trains than say the average uk christian knows about the bible.

I have seen far more dedication in football fans than i ever did when i was involved in the church.

How you demonstrate your belief is not my point and just because you are pious, dedicated or devoted does not make it any more real

There's a lot of generalisations in this post.

I could quite easily say.... I've seen far more violence and anger in football fans than any religious person I've ever met. But that doesn't really add much to this discussion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's a lot of generalisations in this post.

I could quite easily say.... I've seen far more violence and anger in football fans than any religious person I've ever met. But that doesn't really add much to this discussion.

no football fan has resorted to a suicide vest to say their team is better...

[DemolitionRed]

It doesn't make it real to you LT but whilst you can't accept its real you must accept that you can't lambaste those who do believe into not believing.

[Marsh.]

Oh Marsh he's going to take that as some kind of compliment you know :omgno:

why thankyou

:douf:

I didn't mean your penis is a monster. :omgno:

I meant because of your bald head. :fist:

[Marsh.]

no football fan has resorted to a suicide vest to say their team is better...

No but drunkenly beating the sh*t out of each other and abusing disabled children who support the opposite team is par for the course. Just read an article on the latter ten minutes ago actually. Humans can be despicable.

But, yes, we can talk about extreme examples of a vast number of people all day long doesn't make it relevant at all.

The football thugs don't represent every single person on the planet who enjoys football/sport anymore than your example of a terrorist represents the religion they misinterpret.

[the truth]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;8507466]No, it's wrong to make comments to someone with the direct intention of causing that person offense.

This whole thread is designed to cause offence , there is nothing constructive or sincere about it.
It is acceptable to debate and converse and express one's thoughts, and not have to censor oneself, in fear that those comments will indirectly cause someone offense.

This isn't a debate its mockery


My advice, in full, to anyone who finds themselves upset or offended by any online debate about something they happen to like or believe... Is to either grow a thicker skin, or avoid discussions where they might find themselves "offended".

does that apply equally to other groups? gay people? feminists? disabled people? Muslims? I don't think so, people go after feminism on here and they get banned.
I flat out refuse to consider certain topics of conversation "off limits" incase they "hurt someone's feelings". We're not 5 years old, ffs. We can surely handle it. If we can't, we have bigger problems to worry about

Ok then lets hear you mock feminism, gay rights, etc etc

[the truth]

No but drunkenly beating the sh*t out of each other and abusing disabled children who support the opposite team is par for the course. Just read an article on the latter ten minutes ago actually. Humans can be despicable.

But, yes, we can talk about extreme examples of a vast number of people all day long doesn't make it relevant at all.

The football thugs don't represent every single person on the planet who enjoys football/sport anymore than your example of a terrorist represents the religion they misinterpret.

good points

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not Marsh and The Truth singing from the same hymn sheet


:omgno:

[Ammi]

No, no. You're the one confusing yourself. :laugh:

Who said both are "true"? :conf: Respecting someone else's right to their own beliefs is not a contradiction, no more than respecting someone's different opinion to your own.

For a believer either A or B can only be correct? Yes, that's why most religious people tend to follow one religion. Have you met a Hindu Christian or something? :laugh:

...Marsh..:love:..this really is it though/respect ..a tolerance of different faiths and beliefs, and obviously including non beliefs...and respect for those who have those beliefs/not being mocking or belittling of them...(and a few posts in here have been anything but indirectly belittling/mocking but exteremely directly so ..).....because respect leads to tolerance and less prejudices, whether the subject be religion or not...

[Marsh.]

good points

:omgno:

I'm printing this out RIGHT NOW

[user104658]

No, it's wrong to make comments to someone with the direct intention of causing that person offense.

This whole thread is designed to cause offence , there is nothing constructive or sincere about it.
It is acceptable to debate and converse and express one's thoughts, and not have to censor oneself, in fear that those comments will indirectly cause someone offense.

This isn't a debate its mockery


My advice, in full, to anyone who finds themselves upset or offended by any online debate about something they happen to like or believe... Is to either grow a thicker skin, or avoid discussions where they might find themselves "offended".

does that apply equally to other groups? gay people? feminists? disabled people? Muslims? I don't think so, people go after feminism on here and they get banned.
I flat out refuse to consider certain topics of conversation "off limits" incase they "hurt someone's feelings". We're not 5 years old, ffs. We can surely handle it. If we can't, we have bigger problems to worry about

Ok then lets hear you mock feminism, gay rights, etc etc

I didn't make the thread.

And yes, it applies across the board, although like I said, it's not "mocking" to argue against something. Obviously I'm not going to argue against gay rights, as I fully believe in gay rights, but if you scout around a little I'm sure you'll find quite a few threads where I am vocally against modern feminism.

I also don't particularly understand your point about Muslims. This thread is not about Christians or Christianity - it's about any and all religions. That includes Islam.

[user104658]

Can I also just say in reference to a lot of the above... Respecting someone's right to their opinion does not necessitate accepting that opinion as fact or possibility. You can respect someones right to HAVE an opinion and beliefs, whilst at the same time unambiguously stating that you think those beliefs are incorrect.

To flip Truth's logic around: if we must respect everyone's right to believe in religion x, y or z... Must we not then also respect the beliefs of terrorists? White supremacists? Trump supporters?

[Crimson Dynamo]

...Marsh..:love:..this really is it though/respect ..a tolerance of different faiths and beliefs, and obviously including non beliefs...and respect for those who have those beliefs/not being mocking or belittling of them...(and a few posts in here have been anything but indirectly belittling/mocking but exteremely directly so ..).....because respect leads to tolerance and less prejudices, whether the subject be religion or not...

So I take it you do not agree with such things as The Life or Brian or Father Ted?

[Marsh.]

Can I also just say in reference to a lot of the above... Respecting someone's right to their opinion does not necessitate accepting that opinion as fact or possibility. You can respect someones right to HAVE an opinion and beliefs, whilst at the same time unambiguously stating that you think those beliefs are incorrect.

That wasn't really the point I was making. Recap those comments in the context of the conversation I had with the other poster.

[Kizzy]

Everything always comes back to bloody divorce with you. :fist:

I think Kizzy's single so go and make sweet love. :hehe:

How would this work? I believe in god and he doesn't, did you forget that?

[Crimson Dynamo]

How would this work? I believe in god and he doesn't, did you forget that?

we can put that to one side and get naked tho

right?

[Kizzy]

..also with that, I definitely wouldn't say that the Jewish people in those concentration camps were anything like people of weak spirit, which some believe of those with religious faith../for them to endure what they did and for those who survived, the very opposite of 'weakness' in humans/mental weakness...

Wait a minute, I hope this isn't a reference to my comments at the beginning of the thread.
I really hope that isn't a twist on my comments because that isn't what I said at all.

[DemolitionRed]

Can I also just say in reference to a lot of the above... Respecting someone's right to their opinion does not necessitate accepting that opinion as fact or possibility. You can respect someones right to HAVE an opinion and beliefs, whilst at the same time unambiguously stating that you think those beliefs are incorrect.

To flip Truth's logic around: if we must respect everyone's right to believe in religion x, y or z... Must we not then also respect the beliefs of terrorists? White supremacists? Trump supporters?

No because terrorists don't respect religion
White supremacists don't have to be religious
Trump supporters come mainly under the category of white supremacists.

[the truth]

Jesus was awesome

[user104658]

No because terrorists don't respect religion
White supremacists don't have to be religious
Trump supporters come mainly under the category of white supremacists.

Why does that matter, though? Why does "we have to respect the beliefs of others and not say anything about it if we think they're wrong" come with caveats that mean it only applies to SOME beliefs and not others? Who gets to decide which belief systems are damaging and which are benign? It's all completely subjective... so, the only sensible option is to say that it's OK to question and disagree with any or none.

[Kizzy]

Supremacists come under the terrorist umbrella though surely?

[Alf]

Trump supporters come mainly under the category of white supremacists.You know them all? You know everything about the lives of the people that are to vote for him?

[the truth]

Tony Benn was a lifelong Christian and the greatest politician of the last 50 years. Lloyd George the greatest politician in the history of the world was a Christian and aneurin bevan , the biggest legend of all was also a Christian. This is just one example of how Jesus changed our country for the better! That's before we consider the FACT Christian Chruches donate 100s of billions for charities across the globe every year, feeding, clothing, educating and saving the lives of millions. No other organisation on the planet even comes close. At the heart of it is the goodness and kindness of these people who want to help, in their heart is Jesus, the man who inspired this all with his words, actions and teachings.

[the truth]

??????????????

[Alf]

If you've not seen it then you should watch The late great Christopher Hitchens one of the greatest orator's of our time take on his equally great debater brother Peter.

They debate Iraq first, then God

The God debate starts at 31.45

ggIDnBl0zIU

[Kizzy]

I like this Christopher ( no pun intended) is cool, his brothers mocking, belittling accusations are expected of one who suggests there is an 'Anglican Jehovah'.

[the truth]

If you've not seen it then you should watch The late great Christopher Hitchens one of the greatest orator's of our time take on his equally great debater brother Peter.

They debate Iraq first, then God

The God debate starts at 31.45

ggIDnBl0zIU

yeah and Christopher raised how much to fund, feed and clothe and educate and house the starving millions? Jesus billions, chris hitchens 0.....Rock on Chris:dance:

[user104658]

Tony Benn was a lifelong Christian and the greatest politician of the last 50 years. Lloyd George the greatest politician in the history of the world was a Christian and aneurin bevan , the biggest legend of all was also a Christian. This is just one example of how Jesus changed our country for the better! That's before we consider the FACT Christian Chruches donate 100s of billions for charities across the globe every year, feeding, clothing, educating and saving the lives of millions. No other organisation on the planet even comes close. At the heart of it is the goodness and kindness of these people who want to help, in their heart is Jesus, the man who inspired this all with his words, actions and teachings.

The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

[the truth]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;8508174]The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

The vast number of great things they do outnumber every other organization in the history of the planet, theyre also not given credit for it, as we are brainwashed 24/7 with the puerile hate of mainstream media



What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

Good people like Jesus, some love him. Many believe in his morals, ,many take great comfort and wisdom from his words and deeds. Some believe he was the son of God, some believe he may have been, some believe he wasn't but still respected and followed his principles and teachings. Some scoff he was deluded , which is why he has crucified, some scoff and say he didn't exist. There are many billions of people with loads of different views. But nearly all of them agree, the story, the words, the teachings, the life, the morals were revolutionary and the vast vast majority would agree with them and inspire these people and get them together in vast groups for the betterment of the world. That ultimately is imo the most important thing.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

It doesn't matter if it comes naturally or not, as long as people are helping. As well as the people who help aren't just doing so to look good publicly whilst ducking taxes and acting like crooks and thugs when theyre not seen. I don't for a second say Christian people are better than anyone else. I do think because of Jesus they have a better chance to really do great things and change the world. Id even say people with no beliefs in God could take enormous fulfilment from visiting a Christian church, especially if they want to contribute in one of the many ways like missionary or charitable work. Youll meet awesome people and experience things you can only dream of elsewhere

[Alf]

yeah and Christopher raised how much to fund, feed and clothe and educate and house the starving millions? Jesus billions, chris hitchens 0.....Rock on Chris:dance:
What are you waffling about?

[Z]

They probably exist in one of the dimensions we've yet to discover

[the truth]

What are you waffling about?

wow, great comeback?

[Alf]

wow, great comeback?
Come back to what? I just put up a video of a debate about God and you reply to it by saying Jesus has raised billions and Hitchens has raised nothing.

Are you saying because of this reason that that makes Hitchens opinion invalid?

Or was his excellent educated reasoning on the subject a bit to hard to swallow?


Now I'm no Atheist, I think the word is Agnostic what I am. I don't actually believe, but I wont rule out anything because the World is always full of surprises.

Will there be life after death in Heaven? There's only one way to find out and that's dying. So in my opinion it's a death cult.

I'm not against teaching from the bible or any religious book. in fact I think they should be mandatory in Schools, along with other great works of literature through history, maybe than as Human race we could all be more educated on The World.

I didn't stand a chance with the senior School I went to, the only thing I remember doing in History was The JFK assassination (how pathetic is that?). And the only books I remember reading in English were 'A kestrel for a knave' and 'Buddy' so I was never encouraged to read great works of literature, it's just not the thing you did where I'm from. Which is why I'll admit to knowing sweet FA.

[Ammi]

The fact that many Christians are brilliant people and that brilliant things are done in the name of Christianity / the church has absolutely zero impact on whether or not any of it (God, creation, miracles, the supernatural stuff) is actually true, though, does it.

What I see is good people who WANT to do good things, who just happen to get their heads together through their churches. Would they be doing the same things without the church? No, maybe not, because they wouldn't know where to start... but I do know that they would still want to. Good people want to do good things, whether they "believe in or follow Jesus" or not.

In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior? Do they feel compelled to because they believe in powerful beings who are watching their actions? Naturally, it'll be a mix of both.

....hmm, I think that's maybe part of it though..(obviously only a part..)..of the emotions with religious beliefs and non beliefs/obviously it's flipping to the 'positive' rather than the 'negative' of 'in the name of religion/evil deeds'...that defensive/type thing from both 'sides' because although a religious belief may make someone aspire to..../the positives in their religion, they have to be that person who would want to aspire to positive/good in the first place, it's the person they are more than anything else and obviously the same with anyone who doesn't have a religious belief, if there is that aspiration then there is that aspiration regardless ..and as we know, also not 'good' people regardless as well...those are extremes though, good and bad, most people/humans I think are a mixture of both and many things...


...I do think that many people would know 'where to start' though/I don't think that the church necessarily is a big factor there but that's only my own personal experience which is less 'church' and more 'community', the community, which does very much apply to personal things/help and awareness within a community so more 'personal' but also applies to things more worldwide as well/a balance of both...and some are religious people and some are not/an equal balance I would say so very much not a religion 'monopoly' thing...I don't agree with more honourable or less honourable though/or ulterior motives etc...only because it doesn't really matter what the reason/motivation to someone who may benefit from 'good' and that's the point really isn't it of 'good' or helping..?..the people whose lives may have been made a difference to...that school in Africa that was so much needed by the children/that medical help etc..?...the importance is that those things happen and whether those things happen and if they do..?..then those people wouldn't really care what the intention/'ulterior motive', would they..I don't really care about 'motives' personally, with something like possible positive differences in people's lives, that's the only thing really that should matter to me...

[DemolitionRed]

Why does that matter, though? Why does "we have to respect the beliefs of others and not say anything about it if we think they're wrong" come with caveats that mean it only applies to SOME beliefs and not others? Who gets to decide which belief systems are damaging and which are benign? It's all completely subjective... so, the only sensible option is to say that it's OK to question and disagree with any or none.

Ah, now you make a good point. How can we question or even condemn one and not the other?

[bots]

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

[Kizzy]

....hmm, I think that's maybe part of it though..(obviously only a part..)..of the emotions with religious beliefs and non beliefs/obviously it's flipping to the 'positive' rather than the 'negative' of 'in the name of religion/evil deeds'...that defensive/type thing from both 'sides' because although a religious belief may make someone aspire to..../the positives in their religion, they have to be that person who would want to aspire to positive/good in the first place, it's the person they are more than anything else and obviously the same with anyone who doesn't have a religious belief, if there is that aspiration then there is that aspiration regardless ..and as we know, also not 'good' people regardless as well...those are extremes though, good and bad, most people/humans I think are a mixture of both and many things...


...I do think that many people would know 'where to start' though/I don't think that the church necessarily is a big factor there but that's only my own personal experience which is less 'church' and more 'community', the community, which does very much apply to personal things/help and awareness within a community so more 'personal' but also applies to things more worldwide as well/a balance of both...and some are religious people and some are not/an equal balance I would say so very much not a religion 'monopoly' thing...I don't agree with more honourable or less honourable though/or ulterior motives etc...only because it doesn't really matter what the reason/motivation to someone who may benefit from 'good' and that's the point really isn't it of 'good' or helping..?..the people whose lives may have been made a difference to...that school in Africa that was so much needed by the children/that medical help etc..?...the importance is that those things happen and whether those things happen and if they do..?..then those people wouldn't really care what the intention/'ulterior motive', would they..I don't really care about 'motives' personally, with something like possible positive differences in people's lives, that's the only thing really that should matter to me...

The African Anglican church are along with other Christian fellowships in the prohibition of gay marriage, they aid to maintain their stranglehold.
How can making a positive difference in one persons life at the expense of another be right?
If you don't care about motives are you not intentionally blinkering yourself? I'm sure the church are very happy this delusion is so popular.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes the catholic church's no condoms influence in Africa has been a great help...

[Kizzy]

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

Because it's not the majority consensus or the accepted social norm, that sounds a little small minded, are you not simply ignorant to those beliefs?
I have had experience of many branches of the Christian faith and formed an opinion based on that, if you have nothing to base your views on then claiming someone who has a different set of beliefs is a weirdo is nescient.

[Livia]

Belief works both ways. If someone is allowed to believe what they want (provided its within the law) then I am entitled to believe that those with strange beliefs are a bunch of weirdos.

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

who is insulting people personally?

[Livia]

who is insulting people personally?

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

There are plenty of people who think faeries are real and unicorns, people think Yetis exist and Angels and ghosts.

I see no difference - its believing without proper evidence

[Kizzy]

And that is the whole crux of this thread.

People with faith are allowed be be insulted by people who consider themselves too intelligent to believe. And that's kind of amusing.

Who has been insulted, and by whom?
As a believer I'm as offended as you nearly.

[Niamh.]

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

Because it's a fascinating subject that plays a massive part in world history and how the world is shaped today. I won't be told what I am and am not allowed speak about. Why is Father Ted funny? Because it points out massive hypocrisies in organised religion specifically Catholicism

[Kizzy]

Insinuating that people who believe in God might also believe in fairies and unicorns... that's kind of insulting. Questioning the validity of someone's faith because you yourself have no evidence... that's kind of insulting. It's how these threads always go. I have hardly ever seen anyone on here insult someone for being an atheist. Most religious people (with one or two notable exceptions) are quite happy to leave the atheists to themselves and their own personal beliefs but it doesn't work the other way around. It's the last great acceptable insult. And it's always the non-believers who want to talk about God, have you noticed that? Why is that, I wonder?

Because they don't have blind faith, theological discussions are not simply promoted by those who don't believe I do and I love talking about it.
It solves nothing shutting down debate.

[Livia]

There are plenty of people who think faeries are real and unicorns, people think Yetis exist and Angels and ghosts.

I see no difference - its believing without proper evidence

The simple answer is, next time you start a thread posing a question it's taken learned people millennia to ponder, and to which there is still no definitive answer, I hope people with faith, such as myself, will steer well clear of the "debate" so that the atheists can just talk amongst themselves.

Let me know if you come up with anything.

[kirklancaster]

Of course this thread topic was chosen by L.T. to attract the usual piss-taking responses, and of course it has been successful in achieving that objective.

If this forum is a 'Serious Debate' forum, and this subject is a 'Serious' subject, of which the OP asks; "Why are God's always invisible", then why, when I posted a serious and comprehensive response WITH corroboration - as usual - have there been no comment, responses, or even acknowledgement of my serious response, when there HAVE been NUMEROUS piss-taking posts since?

Livia is bang on right.

[Kizzy]

The simple answer is, next time you start a thread posing a question it's taken learned people millennia to ponder, and to which there is still no definitive answer, I hope people with faith, such as myself, will steer well clear of the "debate" so that the atheists can just talk amongst themselves.

Let me know if you come up with anything.

That's not an answer, suggesting it's been thought about before shouldn't stop people from thinking or questioning.
Free will gives all the right to do this, god given.
Anyone who feels secure in their faith can rest on their laurels while others wrestle with the big questions then.

[Niamh.]

Of course this thread topic was chosen by L.T. to attract the usual piss-taking responses, and of course it has been successful in achieving that objective.

If this forum is a 'Serious Debate' forum, and this subject is a 'Serious' subject, of which the OP asks; "Why are God's always invisible", then why, when I posted a serious and comprehensive response WITH corroboration - as usual - have there been no comment, responses, or even acknowledgement of my serious response, when there HAVE been NUMEROUS piss-taking posts since?

Livia is bang on right.

Personally speaking, I didn't reply to your post because it was just Bible quotes and I don't really believe stuff written in the Bible so it would have been pointless to reply to your post

[kirklancaster]

Personally speaking, I didn't reply to your post because it was just Bible quotes and I don't really believe stuff written in the Bible so it would have been pointless to reply to your post

Thank you Niamh. I understand.

I was really hoping for a response from LT to be honest. :hehe:

[Livia]

That's not an answer, suggesting it's been thought about before shouldn't stop people from thinking or questioning.
Free will gives all the right to do this, god given.
Anyone who feels secure in their faith can rest on their laurels while others wrestle with the big questions then.

I don't have anything else to say in this "debate".

[Kizzy]

I don't have anything else to say in this "debate".

Fair enough.

[Niamh.]

Thank you Niamh. I understand.

I was really hoping for a response from LT to be honest. :hehe:

No worries :love:

[kirklancaster]

That's not an answer, suggesting it's been thought about before shouldn't stop people from thinking or questioning.
Free will gives all the right to do this, god given.
Anyone who feels secure in their faith can rest on their laurels while others wrestle with the big questions then.

I am physically large enough and skilled in boxing to have 'faith' that I can take care of myself and I am 100% 'secure' in that faith, but if every time I walked out of my door I was attacked - even by 6 stone weaklings - I would not enjoy it, would soon tire of it, and would soon not relish the prospect of venturing out.

It is no different with matters pertaining to Faith or Intellect - constant attack and ridicule do not entice one to join 'debates' - no matter how secure one is in his/her faith. Especially when counter arguments are dismissed without answer, or facts which rebutt are so conveniently ignored.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I didnt see a kirk essay post with bible quotes

where was it

?

[Niamh.]

.

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.

God 'communicated' via his Angels to many people in the Old Testament, and to his Prophets and many others, by a form of what we now term 'telepathy' which they - in their limited knowledge termed 'dreams' or 'visions'.

Yet God DID physically appear on numerous occasions to others in the Old Testament:
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Noah and his wife and sons.
Abraham
Sarah
Hagar
Ishmael
Rebekah
Joseph
Jacob
Solomon
Job
Isaiah
Micaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Nebuchadnezza
Shadrach, Meshach,Abed-Nego
Belshazzar and company of ,1000 lords at feast
Daniel
Amos
Jonah
Habakkuk
Zechariah
Elijah
Elisha
David

And let's not forget the most famous example of man meeting a visible God; Moses, who came back down Sinai after receiving the Commandments, and was transfigured and his skin 'glowing' and 'shining':

Exodus 34:29

"29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him.

31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them.

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai".

And this is NOT the only time those who 'met' God were transfigured and became 'Shining Ones'.

In the New Testament, GOD appears before EVERYONE, from the Israelites to the Romans and others, in the form of Jesus of Nazareth - The Christ or Messiah.

YOU are looking and approching this subject through very ordinary HUMAN eyes, and within the very strict and narrow parameters of knowledge which even the most intellectual and learned of humans are unfortunately shackled by.

WHY - if God exists (and I KNOW that he does) - should we humans dare to know HIS mind, or understand HIS works?

The most intellectal, scientific or creative of us, fail miserably when attempting to understand a concept so unimaginable and unfathomable as God, and we close our feeble minds altogether, or hide behind Darwin's increasingly discredited and flawed 'Origin of Species' or the error-riddled sweeping presumptions of Dawkins, or we fall in 'lock, stock, and barrel' with the 'God was an Alien' types of theories, because Aliens (which I also firmly believe in the existence of) are more 'technological' and therefore dovetail more neatly into our 'scientific' mindsets.

The text of the Bible and other scriptures may at times appear self-contradictory or to paint God as a murderous, wrathful, and positively evil deity, but this is a HUGE error being repeatedly made on here by 'Religion bashers' and 'Atheists', because they are confusing the WORD of God with the word of God as corrupted and altered over thousands of years by countless corrupt MEN for their own very HUMAN ends.

In Walter Millers great post-nuclear dystopian Science Fiction masterpiece "A Canticle for Leibowitz", the monk Liebowitz finds a tattered fragment of an ordinary pre-apocolypse shopping list - including 'pastrami' - and this is subsequently hailed as a 'sacred relic'.

A mistake in perception and translation - yes.

But proof that whoever wrote that list EXISTED and that it had an original purpose.

Do not deny God's message because we are not yet equipped to understand it.

And don't blame God for Man's doing.

[Niamh.]

I am physically large enough and skilled in boxing to have 'faith' that I can take care of myself and I am 100% 'secure' in that faith, but if every time I walked out of my door I was attacked - even by 6 stone weaklings - I would not enjoy it, would soon tire of it, and would soon not relish the prospect of venturing out.

It is no different with matters pertaining to Faith or Intellect - constant attack and ridicule do not entice one to join 'debates' - no matter how secure one is in his/her faith. Especially when counter arguments are dismissed without answer, or facts which rebutt are so conveniently ignored.

Nobody is "standing outside your door" waiting to attack you though Kirk, this is a topic on an internet forum, it's your choice to read or not to read/to respond or not to respond :shrug:

[user104658]

Personally speaking, I didn't reply to your post because it was just Bible quotes and I don't really believe stuff written in the Bible so it would have been pointless to reply to your post
That's pretty much my thoughts on it. You can't back up questions about the validity of religion or the existence of God using quotes from the Bible...

Its like asking Sony to review the Playstation 4.

[user104658]

Nobody is "standing outside your door"

It's true Kirk.





... ... ... Trumpet's M.O. is hiding in the bushes down the street, ready to strike when you least expect, screeching like a banshee and brandishing an organic lambskin dildo.

"Admit that God isn't real!!" he wails, as he beats your ears with the soft, yet firm, prosthetic phallus.

[Kizzy]

I am physically large enough and skilled in boxing to have 'faith' that I can take care of myself and I am 100% 'secure' in that faith, but if every time I walked out of my door I was attacked - even by 6 stone weaklings - I would not enjoy it, would soon tire of it, and would soon not relish the prospect of venturing out.

It is no different with matters pertaining to Faith or Intellect - constant attack and ridicule do not entice one to join 'debates' - no matter how secure one is in his/her faith. Especially when counter arguments are dismissed without answer, or facts which rebutt are so conveniently ignored.

That's because your religion as instilled in you a kind of superiority complex, a religious security blanket.
It seems you feel there are things that shouldn't or can't be asked if you are not a confirmed believer.
On this subject you know as much and as little as the next man, you may feel different but the fact is you don't, I can appreciate that's hard to accept.
I don't see why you have aligned faith and intellect as they are in no way comparable imo. We each have a view formed through our lives it is no detriment to you that I don't see things from your perspective, and visa versa.

[Kizzy]

That's pretty much my thoughts on it. You can't back up questions about the validity of religion or the existence of God using quotes from the Bible...

Its like asking Sony to review the Playstation 4.

:joker::joker: Loving this analogy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.


---------------


yes I know TS etc exist as this is an internet forum and i am part of it and the evidence is plain and simple that others on here are humans who are on phones or in houses on keyboards posting.


There is no evidence apart from some highly questionable ancient copied scrolls that a god exists

Yes there are plenty of parts of the OT that you could use to say "hang on this old tribesman saw god" but using the bible as evidence is as TS states a bit useless


The main reason that gods are invisible is because that way the lie can continue and men can say they saw god to gain power and influence

If you have any video or photos of any of the gods please post them as this will be better evidence that we can analyse

[user104658]

yes I know TS etc exist as this is an internet forum and i am part of it and the evidence is plain and simple that others on here are humans who are on phones or in houses on keyboards posting


And that is where you have made a fatal error, LT! Muahahahaha

[kirklancaster]

It's true Kirk.





... ... ... Trumpet's M.O. is hiding in the bushes down the street, ready to strike when you least expect, screeching like a banshee and brandishing an organic lambskin dildo.

"Admit that God isn't real!!" he wails, as he beats your ears with the soft, yet firm, prosthetic phallus.

:laugh:

[Niamh.]

LT and penises have been mentioned far too much in this thread for my liking :omgno:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The simple answer is, next time you start a thread posing a question it's taken learned people millennia to ponder, and to which there is still no definitive answer, I hope people with faith, such as myself, will steer well clear of the "debate" so that the atheists can just talk amongst themselves.

Let me know if you come up with anything.

Good they have had a turn and now its our turn

I would rather you tried to say why you think your god is invisible. There is not a thread on Tibb that does not contain elements of levity, this is no different and you must accept that people find your religions as well as all others as absurd even if you dont and you think its unacceptable

[kirklancaster]

Nobody is "standing outside your door" waiting to attack you though Kirk, this is a topic on an internet forum, it's your choice to read or not to read/to respond or not to respond :shrug:

Ah - If YOU had started this thread topic - or most other members - I would have no qualms Niamh, but L.T. ? :laugh:

For a man who professes to deny God and religion as much as he does, a random perusal through this forum will produce more posts and threads by LT than ANY other member, and we ALL know why. :laugh:

But - alas - I cannot resist entering his threads.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And that is where you have made a fatal error, LT! Muahahahaha

er TS do you not recall posting that pic on MTM on new years eve, you took it down quickly but I still have it...


http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/azLdx3j_700b.jpg

[kirklancaster]

LT and penises have been mentioned far too much in this thread for my liking :omgno:

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[user104658]

er TS do you not recall posting that pic on MTM on new years eve, you took it down quickly but I still have it...


http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/azLdx3j_700b.jpg

Wish that was me. Obvious type 2 diabetes be damned - that sword is ****ing awesome. Wel jel.

[Marsh.]

How would this work? I believe in god and he doesn't, did you forget that?

Apologies, I didn't realise LT doesn't have sexual relations with believers.

But by all means continue to respond to my posts with unnecessarily moody tones.

[user104658]

Ah - If YOU had started this thread topic - or most other members - I would have no qualms Niamh, but L.T. ? :laugh:

For a man who professes to deny God and religion as much as he does, a random perusal through this forum will produce more posts and threads by LT than ANY other member, and we ALL know why. :laugh:

But - alas - I cannot resist entering him.

:omgno:

Informed consent kirk! Informed consent!

Ahh who am I kidding. We all know that with LT, consent is always implied. He has a T shirt that sez so.

[Livia]

Good they have had a turn and now its our turn

I would rather you tried to say why you think your god is invisible. There is not a thread on Tibb that does not contain elements of levity, this is no different and you must accept that people find your religions as well as all others as absurd even if you dont and you think its unacceptable



You are not interested in what I think about God. What can I say to you? You've all (by that I mean all the atheists) have decided that nothing from the Bible (or any other religious writing I'm assuming) is acceptable, so that leads us back to faith. And you have none. So how can I explain to you what faith is? It's pointless. You reserve the right to ridicule and if I protest I'm "shutting down the conversation". Like there is a conversation....

[kirklancaster]

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.


---------------


yes I know TS etc exist as this is an internet forum and i am part of it and the evidence is plain and simple that others on here are humans who are on phones or in houses on keyboards posting.


There is no evidence apart from some highly questionable ancient copied scrolls that a god exists

Yes there are plenty of parts of the OT that you could use to say "hang on this old tribesman saw god" but using the bible as evidence is as TS states a bit useless


The main reason that gods are invisible is because that way the lie can continue and men can say they saw god to gain power and influence

If you have any video or photos of any of the gods please post them as this will be better evidence that we can analyse

:nono: In 3,000 years time, if some of your descendants are sitting around discussing an ancient, long gone reality called TIBB, which some people said was myth and made up nonsense which had never really existed, and your descendants produced yellowed printed copies of some of my posts to you - Wouldn't those doubters present, say; "That's no proof Tibb existed etc...?"

Let's say YOU were alive in 3,000 years time, how would YOU prove that T.S or Niamh or me existed and were real?

You KNOW we were real. You KNOW our writings were real, but HOW do you PROVE it to others who were NOT around at the time?

You would have only your own testimony and any printed copies of some of the threads - which is EXACTLY all the ancient peoples of differing religions have; their written evidence of what they experienced.

So it would be left up to others in future generations to decide for themselves whether they believed you or not.

Wouldn't it? :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

This thread starts with a false premise in that God is NOT invisible.

There is a difference in being 'invisible' and being 'unseen'.

YOU, my dear 'winder upper' L.T. exist, I exist, Toy Soldier exists, as do all the members of Tibb, but we are 'invisible' and communicate via this forum, only ELECTING to become 'visible' when we choose to, by sending our photos to each other, skyping each other, or even meeting in person.

God 'communicated' via his Angels to many people in the Old Testament, and to his Prophets and many others, by a form of what we now term 'telepathy' which they - in their limited knowledge termed 'dreams' or 'visions'.

Yet God DID physically appear on numerous occasions to others in the Old Testament:
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Noah and his wife and sons.
Abraham
Sarah
Hagar
Ishmael
Rebekah
Joseph
Jacob
Solomon
Job
Isaiah
Micaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Nebuchadnezza
Shadrach, Meshach,Abed-Nego
Belshazzar and company of ,1000 lords at feast
Daniel
Amos
Jonah
Habakkuk
Zechariah
Elijah
Elisha
David

And let's not forget the most famous example of man meeting a visible God; Moses, who came back down Sinai after receiving the Commandments, and was transfigured and his skin 'glowing' and 'shining':

Exodus 34:29

"29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him.

31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them.

32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai".

And this is NOT the only time those who 'met' God were transfigured and became 'Shining Ones'.

In the New Testament, GOD appears before EVERYONE, from the Israelites to the Romans and others, in the form of Jesus of Nazareth - The Christ or Messiah.

YOU are looking and approching this subject through very ordinary HUMAN eyes, and within the very strict and narrow parameters of knowledge which even the most intellectual and learned of humans are unfortunately shackled by.

WHY - if God exists (and I KNOW that he does) - should we humans dare to know HIS mind, or understand HIS works?

The most intellectal, scientific or creative of us, fail miserably when attempting to understand a concept so unimaginable and unfathomable as God, and we close our feeble minds altogether, or hide behind Darwin's increasingly discredited and flawed 'Origin of Species' or the error-riddled sweeping presumptions of Dawkins, or we fall in 'lock, stock, and barrel' with the 'God was an Alien' types of theories, because Aliens (which I also firmly believe in the existence of) are more 'technological' and therefore dovetail more neatly into our 'scientific' mindsets.

The text of the Bible and other scriptures may at times appear self-contradictory or to paint God as a murderous, wrathful, and positively evil deity, but this is a HUGE error being repeatedly made on here by 'Religion bashers' and 'Atheists', because they are confusing the WORD of God with the word of God as corrupted and altered over thousands of years by countless corrupt MEN for their own very HUMAN ends.

In Walter Millers great post-nuclear dystopian Science Fiction masterpiece "A Canticle for Leibowitz", the monk Liebowitz finds a tattered fragment of an ordinary pre-apocolypse shopping list - including 'pastrami' - and this is subsequently hailed as a 'sacred relic'.

A mistake in perception and translation - yes.

But proof that whoever wrote that list EXISTED and that it had an original purpose.

Do not deny God's message because we are not yet equipped to understand it.

And don't blame God for Man's doing.Good post from a believers perspective.
But the way i look at it is from a perspective of seeing all religions as credible as each other.I have not read all of the bible.I do have a bible app on my phone and will read parts of it on occasion.I find it fascinating.An amazing look at how some people thought two thousand or so years ago.

But what exactly is it that makes the bible anymore credible than the other religious texts?
I also have a dvd of university lectures on ancient Egypt.They were extremely religious people and when you study it you can see how their religion began from ritual burial in the very early days(thousands of years before Christianity) and how it evolved and new ideas came in and then old ideas brought back and so on.
You can also see some ideas from back then in the newer religions.
You can see how Christianity evolved from Judaism and then Islam a little later.
So why Christianity the 'real' or 'true' religion?
To me it is just one of many.

Now life on other planets i do believe.I don't just think it's a possibility i actually think it's a probability in an ever expanding and infinite(as far as we know) universe.Infact if the universe is infinite then is'nt it actually an impossibility that there is'nt more life in the universe?

[Crimson Dynamo]

:nono: In 3,000 years time, if some of your descendants are sitting around discussing an ancient, long gone reality called TIBB, which some people said was myth and made up nonsense which had never really existed, and your descendants produced yellowed printed copies of some of my posts to you - Wouldn't those doubters present, say; "That's no proof Tibb existed etc...?"

Let's say YOU were alive in 3,000 years time, how would YOU prove that T.S or Niamh or me existed and were real?

You KNOW we were real. You KNOW our writings were real, but HOW do you PROVE it to others who were NOT around at the time?

You would have only your own testimony and any printed copies of some of the threads - which is EXACTLY all the ancient peoples of differing religions have; their written evidence of what they experienced.

So it would be left up to others in future generations to decide for themselves whether they believed you or not.

Wouldn't it? :laugh:

They would be printed from a computer with a date and a source and could be traced and verified. If in 100 years a 137 year old Neem was asked to recall some Tibb conversations and she did and a person wrote them down and then 200 years later that was passed on to another person and they copied it and then it went to a council who decided what bits to keep and what not and then it was transliterated and copied again and finally it was published it may not be the best way to recall Tibb




but the kicker is Kirk, the non supernatural parts of your bible not many people have much issue with, the fake supernatural stuff is the part that no one believes because they were added to get people on board and to follow the cult. :nono:

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistsrespectreligion/fl/What-is-Respect-What-Does-it-Mean-to-Respect-Religion-or-Theism.htm

I would urge you to read this brief article that is relevant in this debate

[joeysteele]

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.

[Kizzy]

Apologies, I didn't realise LT doesn't have sexual relations with believers.

But by all means continue to respond to my posts with unnecessarily moody tones.

Wow does your religion give you insight into hormonal fluctuations of females over the internet? That's cool, can I change my mind I'm in!

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.


so by that token you are just agnostic to everything

zombies, dragons, moomins, Bigfoot etc


you are open to everything being real


So when your child says Dad I am worried there may be a monster under my bed your response will be "well darling i am keeping an open mind to the possibility that their may be a large monster under your bed, on the other hand there may not be, if you think there is then chances are there is...sleep tight"


Good luck with bedtime...:joker:

[Niamh.]

LT have you always been without a Religion or did you inherit one?

[Crimson Dynamo]

LT have you always been without a Religion or did you inherit one?

No I was born and raised as a Christian

:shocked:

[Niamh.]

No I was born and raised as a Christian

:shocked:

Same, probably unavoidable given where we live :laugh: Geography plays a massive part in what people believe or are taught to believe

[Kizzy]

No I was born and raised as a Christian

:shocked:

And yet you still dare to question anything? Who did your conditioning?! Give me their name, heads will roll!!

[Ammi]

The African Anglican church are along with other Christian fellowships in the prohibition of gay marriage, they aid to maintain their stranglehold.
How can making a positive difference in one persons life at the expense of another be right?
If you don't care about motives are you not intentionally blinkering yourself? I'm sure the church are very happy this delusion is so popular.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

...I believe it's already established that it's the person who interprets their religion and their beliefs and many, many people of faith take the positives from it and only the positives to apply in their own lives and to help others...which was what I was quoting in the post I quoted...(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)...


In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior?

..that I wouldn't see any difference in a good person who helped others, whether they had a faith/belief or not and neither would it make any difference to the lives that they helped....if you feel it's a better way for that help not to be given at all or received at all by those who desperately need it, because of any negatives that aren't practised by those people, then that's your prerogative to feel that way..that people of religion should never to good or think of others because.......

[Kizzy]

...I believe it's already established that it's the person who interprets their religion and their beliefs and many, many people of faith take the positives from it and only the positives to apply in their own lives and to help others...which was what I was quoting in the post I quoted...(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)...


In fact, I find it all the more honourable when non-religious people give up their time and energy to help others in these ways. They're doing it simply because it's a good and right thing to do. When I see religious people being charitable... I have to wonder; are they being that way because they really want to? Does it come naturally to them? Do they simply WANT to help? Or... is the motive ulterior?

..that I wouldn't see any difference in a good person who helped others, whether they had a faith/belief or not and neither would it make any difference to the lives that they helped....if you feel it's a better way for that help not to be given at all or received at all by those who desperately need it, because of any negatives that aren't practised by those people, then that's your prerogative to feel that way..that people of religion should never to good or think of others because.......

(of course you know that when you chose to take one part of my post to slant as a negative..)

I knew what? No matter what good work is being done by good people if the organisation appears to have a corrupting agenda then it's perfectly logical to question the motives, it could even negate the good work undertaken.

[joeysteele]

so by that token you are just agnostic to everything

zombies, dragons, moomins, Bigfoot etc


you are open to everything being real


So when your child says Dad I am worried there may be a monster under my bed your response will be "well darling i am keeping an open mind to the possibility that their may be a large monster under your bed, on the other hand there may not be, if you think there is then chances are there is...sleep tight"


Good luck with bedtime...:joker:


I am well used to and expect nothing else but rather petty remarks in any of your responses to any of my posts.

This thread that you started is about God/s and things likely related to God/s which is what I had my content of contribution to the issue kept on.

Nowhere does the pathetic response of monsters under the beds have any relevance whatsoever but if you wish to cheapen and destroy the point of your own thread, who am I to stop you.
For claiming to being an Atheist, you seem far more obsessed with respect as to religion and God/s than anyone else.

[Jamie89]

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?

The question of 'why is it acceptable to make fun of religious people' is a really interesting debate though. Mainly because the most common insult that usually gets thrown at religious people is that the whole concept is stupid (the implication being that the religious person is stupid for believing), and yet we know that intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone has faith. You get plenty of stupid and intelligent people on both sides of the argument. So how does someone who is a non believer reconcile in their minds that even though they believe the concept of a religion is stupid, someone with equal or even greater intelligence to them might believe in said religion? Does this not automatically negate the 'religions are stupid' idea, and if so, does that not make it a meaningless insult? In which case, why is that acceptable during a debate about religion? (Comedy/satire etc is different and in context is perfectly acceptable as a way of poking fun at anyone imo, but I'm referring to making fun of religion during a debate.) Most of the questioning on here seems to be aimed at believers so there's one for the atheists :bigsmile: (Personally I don't believe in god but I can't know for certain that I'm right. I'm stupid though, so :idc:)

[the truth]

as well as the Bible itself and the many other scrolls that didn't make the Bible and the various relics there is plenty of proof that many biblical people existed. including pilate , saul and many more. They've even found replicas of similar arks buried in the dead sea.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am well used to and expect nothing else but rather petty remarks in any of your responses to any of my posts.

This thread that you started is about God/s and things likely related to God/s which is what I had my content of contribution to the issue kept on.

Nowhere does the pathetic response of monsters under the beds have any relevance whatsoever but if you wish to cheapen and destroy the point of your own thread, who am I to stop you.
For claiming to being an Atheist, you seem far more obsessed with respect as to religion and God/s than anyone else.

You seem to thin believing in a god is superior to believing in a monster or a dragon

can you elaborate on your hierarchy of belief in the supernatural?

[Crimson Dynamo]

as well as the Bible itself and the many other scrolls that didn't make the Bible and the various relics there is plenty of proof that many biblical people existed. including pilate , saul and many more. They've even found replicas of similar arks buried in the dead sea.


No one doubts t there are many historical aspects to the bible

its just the supernatural stuff that was added to make it awe inspiring that is in question

[kirklancaster]

I would add a question as to not seeing, if God or Gods exist,if Angels or in fact even Demons do exist too.
Couldn't it be possible they are among us all the time but we just don't know them.

if one had had faith in them,how would they too know them anyway and even if they came across one inadvertently, would they even believe they were what they claimed or appeared to be.

It is right to take the whole argument back to faith, if you have faith you can open up to the possibility of anything as to God/s etc almost.
If you are without faith, then you will always likely reject same so all that happens is a constant riding on a carousel,going round in circles.

I have always myself kept an open mind on things, I have seen things and had things happen that there appears no rational explanation for.
Whether it is down to coincidence or something else I keep an open mind on but unless a mind is open, then it is pointless using energy to even try to change it anyway.

I can accept it may well be that Atheists are 'possibly' correct,by the same token I can also accept those of faith,(of which I am more one than not),may also be possibly right too.
Neither can really absolutely disprove the others positions with 'full' certainty however.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: A good post Joey - and balanced as usual.

[kirklancaster]

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?

The question of 'why is it acceptable to make fun of religious people' is a really interesting debate though. Mainly because the most common insult that usually gets thrown at religious people is that the whole concept is stupid (the implication being that the religious person is stupid for believing), and yet we know that intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone has faith. You get plenty of stupid and intelligent people on both sides of the argument. So how does someone who is a non believer reconcile in their minds that even though they believe the concept of a religion is stupid, someone with equal or even greater intelligence to them might believe in said religion? Does this not automatically negate the 'religions are stupid' idea, and if so, does that not make it a meaningless insult? In which case, why is that acceptable during a debate about religion? (Comedy/satire etc is different and in context is perfectly acceptable as a way of poking fun at anyone imo, but I'm referring to making fun of religion during a debate.) Most of the questioning on here seems to be aimed at believers so there's one for the atheists :bigsmile: (Personally I don't believe in god but I can't know for certain that I'm right. I'm stupid though, so :idc:)

A great post Jamie.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?/snip

Not really as the question was why is it with all the thousands of gods that man has created for himself are they all, and i cant off my head think of any that are not, invisible?"

Its not just at the god you dont believe in (and remember that every "believer" in this thread is 100% atheist about every other god )

[joeysteele]

You seem to thin believing in a god is superior to believing in a monster or a dragon

can you elaborate on your hierarchy of belief in the supernatural?

You know something,with absolute full respect, I see absolutely no point of of doing so whatsoever just for you to come back with your usual insulting put downs of those with opinions you disagree with.

With respect why you ask questions about religion and God/s is a mystery to me because all you do is use any answers from others to put down those that may look at religion and God/s more positively or open mindedly than you.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You know something,with absolute full respect, I see absolutely no point of of doing so whatsoever just for you to come back with your usual insulting put downs of those with opinions you disagree with.

With respect why you ask questions about religion and God/s is a mystery to me because all you do is use any answers from others to put down those that may look at religion and God/s more positively or open mindedly than you.

if you open your mind too much joey your brain will fall out

[joeysteele]

if you open your mind too much joey your brain will fall out

I am very happy as I am am thank you, I need no guidance from you at all as to how I should be.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am very happy as I am am thank you, I need no guidance from you at all as to how I should be.

Bit closed minded of you Joey I am surprised :nono:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Surely religious people believe that god isn't a physical entity, and non religious people believe that god doesn't exist. Does that not answer the OP?

The question of 'why is it acceptable to make fun of religious people' is a really interesting debate though. Mainly because the most common insult that usually gets thrown at religious people is that the whole concept is stupid (the implication being that the religious person is stupid for believing), and yet we know that intelligence has no bearing on whether or not someone has faith. You get plenty of stupid and intelligent people on both sides of the argument. So how does someone who is a non believer reconcile in their minds that even though they believe the concept of a religion is stupid, someone with equal or even greater intelligence to them might believe in said religion? Does this not automatically negate the 'religions are stupid' idea, and if so, does that not make it a meaningless insult? In which case, why is that acceptable during a debate about religion? (Comedy/satire etc is different and in context is perfectly acceptable as a way of poking fun at anyone imo, but I'm referring to making fun of religion during a debate.) Most of the questioning on here seems to be aimed at believers so there's one for the atheists :bigsmile: (Personally I don't believe in god but I can't know for certain that I'm right. I'm stupid though, so :idc:)

So Jaimie how do you reconcile the fact that in general when a country develops and educates its population religion dwindles and the fact that the most religious countries by far are the least developed?

Its not hard to look at say India or Norway or Nigeria and France


Educate the people and the need for gods is massively reduced

[joeysteele]

Bit closed minded of you Joey I am surprised :nono:

Just carry on, it is what I expect from you anyway, blatant sarcasm.
I knew that would be likely the case when I responded to your response to me so now I or anyone else, who may be on the receiving end just have to let you get on with it I guess.

[Jamie89]

Not really as the question was why is it with all the thousands of gods that man has created for himself are they all, and i cant off my head think of any that are not, invisible?"

Its not just at the god you dont believe in (and remember that every "believer" in this thread is 100% atheist about every other god )

As you've said though, believers are atheist towards other gods therefore it's just a case of them believing that their god is a non-physical entity, and believing that the other gods don't exist. (I don't want to speak for religious people, but I'm assuming that this is the case.)

[Jamie89]

So Jaimie how do you reconcile the fact that in general when a country develops and educates its population religion dwindles and the fact that the most religious countries by far are the least developed?

Its not hard to look at say India or Norway or Nigeria and France


Educate the people and the need for gods is massively reduced

I'm not sure but I still disagree with the implication that intelligence is a factor in whether or not someone is religious. So personally I can't reconcile it. But then again by only choosing those facts, and ignoring that there are many intelligent/educated/developed people who are religious, you haven't been able to either :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not sure but I still disagree with the implication that intelligence is a factor in whether or not someone is religious. So personally I can't reconcile it. But then again by only choosing those facts, and ignoring that there are many intelligent/educated/developed people who are religious, you haven't been able to either :hee:

Taking aside that it would be difficult to say who an intelligent person is and who isnt :think:

What do you think would be say the percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who do not?

[Jamie89]

Taking aside that it would be difficult to say who an intelligent person is and who isnt :think:

What do you think would be say the percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who do not?

I have absolutely no idea :laugh:

Do you? :suspect:

I don't think it's relevant though, because regardless of numbers, there are still intelligent educated people who are religious so I don't see how it can be suggested that it's a lack of those things which are the cause of someone being religious.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I have absolutely no idea :laugh:

Do you? :suspect:

I don't think it's relevant though, because regardless of numbers, there are still intelligent educated people who are religious so I don't see how it can be suggested that it's a lack of those things which are the cause of someone being religious.

my guess would be 96/4% in say the UK



Not so much intelligence as education is my point on countries- Indian people are not stupid they are just poorly educated for example - same for any 3rd world country where religion and superstition flourishes

Educate them and the need for religion will dissapear like snow off a dyke in April

[Mokka]

There is always somebody somewhere who has studied the question LT... you just have to look

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amarnath-amarasingam/how-religious-are-america_b_749630.html

[AnnieK]

Blimey....17 pages of this??? Unbelievable

[Crimson Dynamo]

There is always somebody somewhere who has studied the question LT... you just have to look

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amarnath-amarasingam/how-religious-are-america_b_749630.html

ah but mokka you did not study the question here

only jamie mentioned intelligence and religion

i mentioned education and religion

:nono:


but if you wish to look at studies for some fun


here is a much larger one

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2395972/Atheists-higher-IQs-Their-intelligence-makes-likely-dismiss-religion-irrational-unscientific.html


"The conclusions were the result of a review of 63 scientific studies about religion and intelligence dating between 1928 and last year.:shocked:

In 53 of these there was a ‘reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity’.

In just 10 was that relationship positive.
"


:thumbs:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Blimey....17 pages of this??? Unbelievable

really?

The Hot Girl Thread has 130 pages

:idc:

[Kizzy]

Anyhoo the answer is goddesses are visible...I'm proof :)

[Marsh.]

Wow does your religion give you insight into hormonal fluctuations of females over the internet? That's cool, can I change my mind I'm in!

My religion? Female hormones? What? :conf:

I merely commented on the fact that you've done nothing but respond to every single one of my posts with attitude attached to them. I haven't pretended to know the state of your hormones. Nor do I wish to know.

You don't need to be psychic to read "Oh so you want to dance with me too?" as a bizarrely confrontational response when I first enter the thread.

[Cherie]

Blimey....17 pages of this??? Unbelievable

Welcome to off season :thumbs2:

[Kizzy]

My religion? Female hormones? What? :conf:

I merely commented on the fact that you've done nothing but respond to every single one of my posts with attitude attached to them. I haven't pretended to know the state of your hormones. Nor do I wish to know.

You don't need to be psychic to read "Oh so you want to dance with me too?" as a bizarrely confrontational response when I first enter the thread.

Aw, if I've upset you I apologise.

[Cherie]

Aw, if I've upset you I apologise.

It was the female hormones that broke him :laugh:

[Kizzy]

It was the female hormones that broke him :laugh:

Sensitive types these religious Cherie, one min he's suggesting I bang LT and then goes all puritanical :shrug:

[Marsh.]

Aw, if I've upset you I apologise.

:umm2:

Not a jot love. Just a reminder to kindly take your patronising comments to someone who naively accepts them.

[Kizzy]

:umm2:

Not a jot love. Just a reminder to kindly take your patronising comments to someone who naively accepts them.

'I think Kizzy's single so go and make sweet love.' Can I suggest the same for your inappropriate remarks then? Thank you.

[Marsh.]

'I think Kizzy's single so go and make sweet love.' Can I suggest the same for your inappropriate remarks then? Thank you.

I only dish out what I'm given.

If you would like a mature and respectful discussion, then begin with one. :)

[kirklancaster]

It was the female hormones that broke him :laugh:

:laugh:BUT :nono: After being unjustly sentenced to more than 32 years in Tibb Towers and after withstanding all the inhumane torture and abuse which such a sentence entails, it will take a hell of a lot more than 'female hormones' to break our beloved Marsh.

[Kizzy]

I only dish out what I'm given.

If you would like a mature and respectful discussion, then begin with one. :)

May I remind you your opening response to me in this thread was 'Eh?'
Take the log from your own eye perhaps.

[Marsh.]

We get it Kizzy, you're right, we're wrong. :thumbs:

So annoying to have to discuss topics with people with such a lower IQ than yourself.

[Kizzy]

We get it Kizzy, you're right, we're wrong. :thumbs:

So annoying to have to discuss topics with people with such a lower IQ than yourself.

I forgive you my child, now say 20 hail kizzys and kiss my ring.

[Ammi]

my guess would be 96/4% in say the UK



Not so much intelligence as education is my point on countries- Indian people are not stupid they are just poorly educated for example - same for any 3rd world country where religion and superstition flourishes

Educate them and the need for religion will dissapear like snow off a dyke in April

....hmmm, that's interesting because in terms of education as such, I'm fortunate enough to have experience of some children and adults who would probably be considered some of the least educated in the world, in terms of how we would see 'educated'....in the History/Geography/Maths/Sciences etc...so very much 'uneducated people'..?...and you're right, who God is also very much 'visible' to them...he's visible to them because their lives have been nothing but death/sadness/the very 'evils' of human and the very evils of the capability of humans...where is 'God' in their world, how on earth do they find him 'visible' when everything around them is the exact opposite of the concept of God and good and what they believe their God to be...but they can see a flower in the ground and with that one small thing, what they can see, despite everything around them, is beauty and hope../someone could give them virtually nothing at all, a very small act of kindness, you could say..?...nothing that in any way could even touch the negatives and the wrongs their lives have seen ...and with that small 'give', they see 'God', they see the good in people despite their lives telling them that there is no good in people...they have no choices in their lives/their lives are filled with very, very little beauty/very little hope/very little of anything at all positive or to believe in, in the balance of 'good in man'....to 'educate' in the context that I think you mean, as in...look this is science, these are 'proven facts' and your God doesn't exist, there is no beauty, the is no hope, there is nothing other than evil in your worlds/face 'facts' for goodness sake....so there you go, now you know, you don't need your God, do you..?...that isn't 'education' is it, that's a destruction of souls and hearts and a filling of cynicism and despair....even if it was in our power as a world to give an equal 'education' to everyone/every child etc on this earth...(which obviously it just isn't..)...it would never be in our power to change their worlds, take away what is their worlds and their everydays...so we 'educate', we take away their small balances, their small realisations of beauty/good and 'God'...and we leave them exactly where they are to face their realities/their sadness and their losses...'superstition' as you call it flourishes..?...well, maybe so because it needs to flourish, it needs to be present and God needs to be believed in because all lives are not as fortunate as yours or mine to have the balances of good/love and family/friends etc as we have...you know, us well educated and 'intelligent' people....


...obviously I'm not taking about the everyday/average and 'norm' of religion, because everyone with a faith will find their own positives, those things are personal tho them and applied in their own lives...but I'm talking more of an extreme with the good and positive of a faith/belief etc...but with extremes of the negatives of terrorism and evils etc, it's important to look at the balance of good and positives as well...actually not just positive for some but an essential in life....and something like a small wooden crucifix type thing for some children is a similar meaning as a little football card of David Beckham they may be lucky enough to own, it's hope and it's the focus of something other than death/sadness and nothingness/their realities...

[the truth]

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

[Livia]

Taking aside that it would be difficult to say who an intelligent person is and who isnt :think:

What do you think would be say the percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who do not?

And this is the main reason I have found this thread particularly annoying.

I will put up my education and intelligence against anyone on this forum. I am at least as intelligent as any of you. And yet, because I believe in God, I am not considered by some atheists to be anything other than naïve and stupid. Which might be amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous.

And incidentally, if you're talking about a percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who don't, it would be more of a "debate" if you were actually in possession of those statistics, or at least a version of them, otherwise it's a meaningless comment.

[Kizzy]

For me I would say it depends which type of intelligence you are referring to: interpersonal, Intrapersonal and others as well as concepts or self actualisation and realisation.
I wouldn't say academic intelligence can be used in any way as a barometer to measure how spiritual an individual may or may not be.

[Kazanne]

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

Yes,have definitely noticed standards slipping.

[Denver]

God is like a Angel just guiding you through life without the need to be seen

[Marsh.]

The correlation between education and religion is an interesting one.

In my own experience, having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it.

[user104658]

And this is the main reason I have found this thread particularly annoying.

I will put up my education and intelligence against anyone on this forum. I am at least as intelligent as any of you. And yet, because I believe in God, I am not considered by some atheists to be anything other than naïve and stupid. Which might be amusing if it wasn't so ridiculous.

And incidentally, if you're talking about a percentage split of intelligent people who believe and those who don't, it would be more of a "debate" if you were actually in possession of those statistics, or at least a version of them, otherwise it's a meaningless comment.

I volunteer as tribute! ... ... ...

In all seriousness, though, I don't think LT is saying that "all religious people are stupid or less intelligent". People find religion for all sorts of reasons. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, and plenty of unintelligent non-religious people.

What he is saying, is that as a percentage, if you take a sample of 1000 more intelligent people with a higher level of education, and compare them to the "general population", there is a smaller percentage of believers. Probably enough of a difference to be statistically significant.

You can see that just by taking Universities as an example, to be honest. Of course there are religious people at Universities - there are whole societies and churches within most - however, again, we're looking at the percentage of religious vs non-religious students at University against the percentage of religious vs non-religious people in society as a whole. There is a clear difference.

Or compare the central US states to the coastal states. Fewer people in the central states go on to further education, coupled with higher levels of religiosity. Or just put it on a global scale - countries with very low levels of education tend to have very religious populations.

Not sure how any of that can be flicked away by saying "show me official stats". General knowledge is valid in a vague, conversational statement. We're not in court :nono:

[Kizzy]

The correlation between education and religion is an interesting one.

In my own experience, having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it.

Any stats to back up that generalisation?

[Marsh.]

Any stats to back up that generalisation?

I haven't made any generalisations?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I volunteer as tribute! ... ... ...

In all seriousness, though, I don't think LT is saying that "all religious people are stupid or less intelligent". People find religion for all sorts of reasons. There are plenty of intelligent religious people, and plenty of unintelligent non-religious people.

What he is saying, is that as a percentage, if you take a sample of 1000 more intelligent people with a higher level of education, and compare them to the "general population", there is a smaller percentage of believers. Probably enough of a difference to be statistically significant.

You can see that just by taking Universities as an example, to be honest. Of course there are religious people at Universities - there are whole societies and churches within most - however, again, we're looking at the percentage of religious vs non-religious students at University against the percentage of religious vs non-religious people in society as a whole. There is a clear difference.

Or compare the central US states to the coastal states. Fewer people in the central states go on to further education, coupled with higher levels of religiosity. Or just put it on a global scale - countries with very low levels of education tend to have very religious populations.

Not sure how any of that can be flicked away by saying "show me official stats". General knowledge is valid in a vague, conversational statement. We're not in court :nono:

Quite

No one is being personal so their is no need to take it so

[Kizzy]

I haven't made any generalisations?

You specifically referred to council estates both in relation to education and belief in religion.
Is your opinion based on the handful of people you knew or everyone on every council estate?

[user104658]

has anyone noticed as God disappears and Jesus, we end up with the vacuum filled by celebrities like Jordan, beckham and other vacuous bores, who are idolised and worshipped by the impressionable millions

Again Truth, it's not that I disagree with you, it's just that it being better still doesn't make it true. There are MANY wonderful rolemodels in fiction, both ancient and modern, far better rolemodels than most of our real-world celebrities, or even real world non-celebrities. Because fictional characters can be written with few or zero flaws, which... isn't realistic. Real people are full of flaws.

The fact that they are great role models, and that it would be wonderful if they were real, doesn't then make them real.

[Marsh.]

You specifically referred to council estates both in relation to education and belief in religion.
Is your opinion based on the handful of people you knew or everyone on every council estate?

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

I was referring to my experience of people with low or even no education level and their attitudes to religion. I can only speak of my own experience. As I said, it's an interesting correlation to think about.

[Denver]

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

[Crimson Dynamo]

....hmmm, that's interesting because in terms of education as such, I'm fortunate enough to have experience of some children and adults who would probably be considered some of the least educated in the world, in terms of how we would see 'educated'....in the History/Geography/Maths/Sciences etc...so very much 'uneducated people'..?...and you're right, who God is also very much 'visible' to them...he's visible to them because their lives have been nothing but death/sadness/the very 'evils' of human and the very evils of the capability of humans...where is 'God' in their world, how on earth do they find him 'visible' when everything around them is the exact opposite of the concept of God and good and what they believe their God to be...but they can see a flower in the ground and with that one small thing, what they can see, despite everything around them, is beauty and hope../someone could give them virtually nothing at all, a very small act of kindness, you could say..?...nothing that in any way could even touch the negatives and the wrongs their lives have seen ...and with that small 'give', they see 'God', they see the good in people despite their lives telling them that there is no good in people...they have no choices in their lives/their lives are filled with very, very little beauty/very little hope/very little of anything at all positive or to believe in, in the balance of 'good in man'....to 'educate' in the context that I think you mean, as in...look this is science, these are 'proven facts' and your God doesn't exist, there is no beauty, the is no hope, there is nothing other than evil in your worlds/face 'facts' for goodness sake....so there you go, now you know, you don't need your God, do you..?...that isn't 'education' is it, that's a destruction of souls and hearts and a filling of cynicism and despair....even if it was in our power as a world to give an equal 'education' to everyone/every child etc on this earth...(which obviously it just isn't..)...it would never be in our power to change their worlds, take away what is their worlds and their everydays...so we 'educate', we take away their small balances, their small realisations of beauty/good and 'God'...and we leave them exactly where they are to face their realities/their sadness and their losses...'superstition' as you call it flourishes..?...well, maybe so because it needs to flourish, it needs to be present and God needs to be believed in because all lives are not as fortunate as yours or mine to have the balances of good/love and family/friends etc as we have...you know, us well educated and 'intelligent' people....


...obviously I'm not taking about the everyday/average and 'norm' of religion, because everyone with a faith will find their own positives, those things are personal tho them and applied in their own lives...but I'm talking more of an extreme with the good and positive of a faith/belief etc...but with extremes of the negatives of terrorism and evils etc, it's important to look at the balance of good and positives as well...actually not just positive for some but an essential in life....and something like a small wooden crucifix type thing for some children is a similar meaning as a little football card of David Beckham they may be lucky enough to own, it's hope and it's the focus of something other than death/sadness and nothingness/their realities...

False hope is no hope at all

[Kizzy]

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

No, it wasn't obvious I thought when you mentioned council estates I thought you were privy to some information we weren't.

No you don't know every person on every council estate, which is why I suggested it was a generalisation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

Parental osmosis is the number 1 method of religious transfer

[Marsh.]

No, it wasn't obvious I thought when you mentioned council estates I thought you were privy to some information we weren't.

No you don't know every person on every council estate, which is why I suggested it was a generalisation.

I didn't pretend to know every person? :umm2:

Hence why I began my post with "In my experience" and mentioned the people I grew up around.

Shall I draw a diagram?

[Denver]

Parental osmosis is the number 1 method of religious transfer

But a lot of children don't care as they get older nowadays

[user104658]

You can't be taught religion you have to believe in it yourself you can't be taught to believe in it so I don't understand the references to education

Most religion is taught to children by their parents. Those children believe it without question - because their parents have told them that it's true. The more that individual is educated on various subjects - science, philosophy, history - the better equipped they are to question what they were taught in early childhood and form their own conclusion.

At a high enough level of general understanding, let me first say, some of those people DO genuinely retain their faith. Some become "wobblers" who question how true it could be but are too fearful to completely reject the notion of a creator and an afterlife (there are a lot of those. A LOT.).

In my opinion, most find enough conflicting information to start to seriously doubt scripture and become either non-specific agnostic or outright atheist. Or become so bored with the whole thing that they stop thinking about it completely, would be defined as generally non-religious, but would respond to the question with a "Dunno, I've not really given it much thought".

Actually... I think it's likely that most people, both the vaguely religious and the mostly non-religious, actually fall into that last category. Hell... a lot of people who actively attend church fall into that category.

[Kizzy]

False hope is no hope at all

That's not strictly true... If you don't know something there is always hope that one day you will.
False hope suggests that there is a degree of certainty, and there is, always therefore it is not 'hopeless'.
What is sad about this is those who have nothing but hope, say the poor African children they are given god as a beacon of hope.... unfortunately he is an African Anglican god who states that gay marriage is wrong, thus perpetuating the regressive regime for another generation.

[user104658]

But a lot of children don't care as they get older nowadays

In Britain / a lot of Europe / The (coastal) States that's very true. But levels of active religion in those areas have been plummeting for years, so...

[Kizzy]

I didn't pretend to know every person? :umm2:

Hence why I began my post with "In my experience" and mentioned the people I grew up around.

Shall I draw a diagram?

Yes if you wouldn't mind.
With your reference to council estates we appear to have made a leap from the geographical to the sociological associations of religious belief.

[Marsh.]

Yes if you wouldn't mind.
With your reference to council estates we appear to have made a leap from the geographical to the sociological associations of religious belief.

I was making comment on LT's introduction to the thread about the possible correlation between intelligence/education and beliefs.

I wasn't making any conclusions but adding my own experience/thoughts into the discussion which seemed to be the opposite of a thought LT had.

A "conversation" I think some call it.

[user104658]

This thread has it all. Now socioeconomic pride is coming into it :joker:

[Kizzy]

I was making comment on LT's introduction to the thread about the possible correlation between intelligence/education and beliefs.

I wasn't making any conclusions but adding my own experience/thoughts into the discussion which seemed to be the opposite of a thought LT had.

A "conversation" I think some call it.

Others might call it a 'presumption'.

[Marsh.]

Others might call it a 'presumption'.

So the comment I made about people I knew/know is a presumption?

No love.

[Kizzy]

So the comment I made about people I knew/know is a presumption?

No love.


If I were to have a bad experience in Birmingham say, one or two people were rude to me for example, I wouldn't then say Birmingham has an issue with rudeness.
This is a similar scenario to your council estate reference, do you understand?

[Marsh.]

If I were to have a bad experience in Birmingham say, one or two people were rude to me for example, I wouldn't then say Birmingham has an issue with rudeness.
This is a similar scenario to your council estate reference, do you understand?

Except I haven't made a judgement about "council estates".

Do you understand?

[Kizzy]

Except I haven't made a judgement about "council estates".

Do you understand?

No you didn't make a judgement just a generalisation, there's a difference, I'm just highlighting that.
It does appear you're attempting to correlate socio-economic deprivation to non belief, are you or not?

[Kazanne]

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

I was referring to my experience of people with low or even no education level and their attitudes to religion. I can only speak of my own experience. As I said, it's an interesting correlation to think about.

You DO make a good point Marsh,thinking about it,I know a few rough diamonds and none of them are religious in any way,they are ferrel ,uncaring and hostile.

[rubymoo]

Wow 19 pages in and i'm ready to make my comment :laugh:

I'm not highly educated, i'm rubbish at trying to get my point across via a forum discussion but i shall give it a go.....

I believe there is something out there......something inside me tells me it's true, i feel it in my gut, my heart and my head.

I wasn't brought up in a religious household, far from it, i haven't had parents influence me with religion either way, yet i look up at the stars with a knowing and a longing to be back there.

I believe in angels, our guardian spirits, and spirit guides, i've never seen them but i sense them, and i communicate with them every single day, i don't go to church and i've never been christened, i've found my own way and my own set of beliefs, religion and beliefs are personal to each and every one of us, that's what makes us unique.

[Kizzy]

What is a 'rough diamond'... I thought it was someone who was essentially good?

[user104658]

You DO make a good point Marsh,thinking about it,I know a few rough diamonds and none of them are religious in any way,they are ferrel ,uncaring and hostile.

Oh my.

Well, if faith has the power to make us all as serene, caring and humble as THIS post suggests, then I guess we should all be believers. :umm2:

[user104658]

What is a 'rough diamond'... I thought it was someone who was essentially good?

Yes a "rough diamond" describes a generally good-hearted person from a rough or difficult background (hard edged bt a heart of gold, that sort of thing).

I think that Kazanne has;

1) Misunderstood the term, and

2) Appears to be saying that everyone from a working/underclass background is essentially an animal.

So, being a Tory, basically.

And also can't spell feralthey are ferrel

http://assets-s3.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/articles/54820-will-ferrell-cries-hysterically-over-trampire-kristen-stewarts-affair-in-hilario/promo/1343997643_will-ferrell-441.jpg

[Kizzy]

I' m ferrel then, SAVE THE NATIONAL ELF!!! :)

[Marsh.]

No you didn't make a judgement just a generalisation, there's a difference, I'm just highlighting that.
It does appear you're attempting to correlate socio-economic deprivation to non belief, are you or not?

No. I was making a counter point to LT's comment about lower-education/intelligence possibly having a higher number of believers. I was highlighting personal experience of that being the opposite. As I said, it's an interesting thing to think about. Therefore adding to a discussion.

But by all means, take up another two pages reading into things that aren't there and being pedantic for the sake of it.

[Kazanne]

Yes a "rough diamond" describes a generally good-hearted person from a rough or difficult background (hard edged bt a heart of gold, that sort of thing).

I think that Kazanne has;

1) Misunderstood the term, and

2) Appears to be saying that everyone from a working/underclass background is essentially an animal.

So, being a Tory, basically.

And also can't spell feral

http://assets-s3.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/articles/54820-will-ferrell-cries-hysterically-over-trampire-kristen-stewarts-affair-in-hilario/promo/1343997643_will-ferrell-441.jpg

Is there any point posting an opinion here? there are many good hearted people who would think nothing of whipping the wheels off a strangers car to sell ,shoplifting etc and helping their 'mates' out ,I said I know a FEW not many ,no one mentioned animals did they,but being as you know me better than I do,you put your own spin on it eh?

[Marsh.]

Yes a "rough diamond" describes a generally good-hearted person from a rough or difficult background (hard edged bt a heart of gold, that sort of thing).

I think that Kazanne has;

1) Misunderstood the term, and

2) Appears to be saying that everyone from a working/underclass background is essentially an animal.

So, being a Tory, basically.

And also can't spell feral

http://assets-s3.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/articles/54820-will-ferrell-cries-hysterically-over-trampire-kristen-stewarts-affair-in-hilario/promo/1343997643_will-ferrell-441.jpg

Kazanne mentioned "a few" people she has known.

Nowhere in her post has she suggested everyone from a particular background is anything.

And people say that the believers read into something that's not there. :idc:

[Kizzy]

No. I was making a counter point to LT's comment about lower-education/intelligence possibly having a higher number of believers. I was highlighting personal experience of that being the opposite. As I said, it's an interesting thing to think about. Therefore adding to a discussion.

But by all means, take up another two pages reading into things that aren't there and being pedantic for the sake of it.

I asked you if you were making reference to all council estates and you've gone all around the (council) houses to avoid giving me a direct answer.
I'll take it as a no as you've found it impossible to say.

[Marsh.]

I asked you if you were making reference to all council estates and you've gone all around the (council) houses to avoid giving me a direct answer.
I'll take it as a no as you've found it impossible to say.

Impossible to say?

No. I've said it several times. You know full well what I was saying but for some reason, probably boredom, love taking any thread off topic with these pedantic mumblings.

Here they are again for you...

I haven't made any generalisations?

Well given I was talking about people I knew and my experience showing the opposite of a point LT made I would've thought it was obvious?

I don't recall pretending to know every person on every council estate?

I was referring to my experience of people with low or even no education level and their attitudes to religion. I can only speak of my own experience. As I said, it's an interesting correlation to think about.

I didn't pretend to know every person? :umm2:

Hence why I began my post with "In my experience" and mentioned the people I grew up around.

Shall I draw a diagram?

I was making comment on LT's introduction to the thread about the possible correlation between intelligence/education and beliefs.

I wasn't making any conclusions but adding my own experience/thoughts into the discussion which seemed to be the opposite of a thought LT had.

A "conversation" I think some call it.

Except I haven't made a judgement about "council estates".

Do you understand?

After that you claim to still think I was making a claim that "All council estates are [insert whatever here]"?

As opposed to me adding a point to a topic LT raised with an experience from the opposite view. No conclusions, no generalisations, merely adding something to the discussion.

Troll someone else Kizzy.

[Northern Monkey]

So then.....

Where is heaven?

It's definately not in the clouds.Or just above them.So it has to be in space somewhere.Is it another planet?
Or is it outside the universe/s.
If the universe is infinite or if there are an infinite number of universes then it has to be in it/one of them.Maybe it's in the centre of a galaxy or in a black hole.

Where is it?

[smudgie]

So then.....

Where is heaven?

It's definately not in the clouds.Or just above them.So it has to be in space somewhere.Is it another planet?
Or is it outside the universe/s.
If the universe is infinite or if there are an infinite number of universes then it has to be in it/one of them.Maybe it's in the centre of a galaxy or in a black hole.

Where is it?

I truly believe both heaven and hell are here in earth.
Some of us will experience both in our lifetimes.

[Northern Monkey]

I truly believe both heaven and hell are here in earth.
Some of us will experience both in our lifetimes.

Ah yes very nice.But what about when we die and go to heaven?Where is it?Is it in another universe?Or ours? Was more my question.

[smudgie]

Is there any point posting an opinion here? there are many good hearted people who would think nothing of whipping the wheels off a strangers car to sell ,shoplifting etc and helping their 'mates' out ,I said I know a FEW not many ,no one mentioned animals did they,but being as you know me better than I do,you put your own spin on it eh?

Of course there is Kaz, and I for one will take an opinion based on experience over some statistics someone reads somewhere any day of the week.
We all know how statistics are massaged :laugh:

[rubymoo]

So then.....

Where is heaven?

It's definately not in the clouds.Or just above them.So it has to be in space somewhere.Is it another planet?
Or is it outside the universe/s.
If the universe is infinite or if there are an infinite number of universes then it has to be in it/one of them.Maybe it's in the centre of a galaxy or in a black hole.

Where is it?

Nobody knows......is there any part of you that has an inkling of where it could be? For me it's in the stars, i had an experience that led me to believe this, but i do believe there are numerous places where there are different heavens.

[Northern Monkey]

Nobody knows......is there any part of you that has an inkling of where it could be? For me it's in the stars, i had an experience that led me to believe this, but i do believe there are numerous places where there are different heavens.

So is there multiple heavens in our universe?Or a heaven in each universe assuming there are more than one?So you are saying it's essentially part of a galaxy?A place in a galaxy where souls go?

[smudgie]

Ah yes very nice.But what about when we die and go to heaven?Where is it?Is it in another universe?Or ours? Was more my question.

Hmmm hard question to answer for me.
Personally I do think the spirit goes on, now I am not sure if that spirit is in a pace called heaven or if indeed there is a God, all I do know is that I believe in some sort of afterlife, nothing to do with if you are a perfectly good person or not either. Or if you believe in God or not.

[Jords]

invisibility cloak

[rubymoo]

So is there multiple heavens in our universe?Or a heaven in each universe assuming there are more than one?So you are saying it's essentially part of a galaxy?A place in a galaxy where souls go?

It could be, nobody knows :shrug:

That's where faith comes in, i can only go on my beliefs.....

I've always had this thing about death and dying and leaving my loved ones behind, and i believe that this sadness was impacting my life, one night i cuddled up to my husband and closed my eyes, i was immediately transported to the stars, it was the most amazing feeling and the love i felt was multiplied by a million, i can honestly say i didn't want to come back :laugh:

It was if someone was showing me that there's nothing to fear.......i tried to get back there for 2 weeks, but i was offered merely a glimpse, now i know where i'm going, i'm not afraid.

[billy123]

Grrrrr next year santa next year.

9-uQ-ZGZxvw

[user104658]

Is there any point posting an opinion here? there are many good hearted people who would think nothing of whipping the wheels off a strangers car to sell ,shoplifting etc and helping their 'mates' out ,I said I know a FEW not many ,no one mentioned animals did they,but being as you know me better than I do,you put your own spin on it eh?

"Feral" (which is what I assume you meant by "ferrel") means wild / untamed / animalistic.

If that's not what you meant, then I'd suggest you probably shouldn't be using words that you don't actually understand...

[rubymoo]

Grrrrr next year santa next year.

9-uQ-ZGZxvw

:amazed: I knew it!!! :laugh:

[user104658]

Grrrrr next year santa next year.

9-uQ-ZGZxvw

Hold on a second... the **** er just came in, scribbled all over the note to santa, ate the pie and then left! He didn't even leave any presents! :suspect: was it even santa at all?

.... ... NO! It's that bloody trickster at it again! How is Santa supposed to keep his blood sugar levels up flying all around the world, if bloody Loki has already snuck into all of the houses and eaten the pies?

[Northern Monkey]

It could be, nobody knows :shrug:

That's where faith comes in, i can only go on my beliefs.....

I've always had this thing about death and dying and leaving my loved ones behind, and i believe that this sadness was impacting my life, one night i cuddled up to my husband and closed my eyes, i was immediately transported to the stars, it was the most amazing feeling and the love i felt was multiplied by a million, i can honestly say i didn't want to come back :laugh:

It was if someone showed me there was nothing to fear.......i tried to get back there for 2 weeks, but i was offered merely a glimpse, now i know where i go i'm not afraid.Sounds amazing.You did'nt take note of directions on the way though?Nevermind.The search continues.

[user104658]

Kazanne mentioned "a few" people she has known.

Nowhere in her post has she suggested everyone from a particular background is anything.

And people say that the believers read into something that's not there. :idc:

When is TiBB going to introduce a backpedaling smilie? Hate having to google it every time...

http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gif

[rubymoo]

Sounds amazing.You did'nt take note of directions on the way though?Nevermind.The search continues.

:laugh: I'll have a one way ticket one day, but until then i'll believe and live my life. :wavey:

[Marsh.]

When is TiBB going to introduce a backpedaling smilie? Hate having to google it every time...

http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gif

Yeah, you didn't misread anyone's post. They're back peddling. Yeah. :umm2:

This is still serious debates, right?

[user104658]

Yeah, you didn't misread anyone's post. They're back peddling. Yeah. :umm2:

This is still serious debates, right?

If you weren't making a general statement about "people from council estates" with your posts, and Kazanne wasn't furthering it by pointing out that the few, *ahem*, "rough, feral" people she knows are also non-religious...

...then both posts, rather than being offensive, were simply entirely pointless. As in... they were saying nothing. At all.

I might as well say

"Oh yeah I knew a random guy once of non-specific origin who wasn't religious, and he owns a hat. So there. Also I know a girl who IS religious, and she has both a face and also feet."

What you WERE, in fact, suggesting was that you have anecdotal evidence that "uneducated scheme folks" are often non-religious, in an attempt to disprove LT's suggestion that there is a correlation between education and religiosity. Kazanne replied to you in order to back up this statement, by confirming that the "rough diamonds"(??? she just means rough people) she knows are indeed non-religious - and also "Feral, uncaring and hostile".

You're now trying to claim that you were only talking about those specific people. For, presumably, absolutely no reason at all because if you WERE both speaking just about those people, then you were not trying to make a point and thus had... well... no point. :shrug:

Just to be illustrative of the backpedaling, though...

none of them are religious in any way,they are ferrel ,uncaring and hostile.

7 posts later, the same people are suddenly described as "good-hearted". What? Are they uncaring and hostile, or are they good-hearted?

http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gifhttp://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gifhttp://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gif

[Kazanne]

"Feral" (which is what I assume you meant by "ferrel") means wild / untamed / animalistic.

If that's not what you meant, then I'd suggest you probably shouldn't be using words that you don't actually understand...

I know what it means ,and as far as I know this is not a school,so I made a spelling mistake, and?

[user104658]

I know what it means ,and as far as I know this is not a school,so I made a spelling mistake, and?

You don't, or didn't, know what it means

they are ferrel

You called them animals. THATS WHAT IT MEANS.

no one mentioned animals did they

You didn't know that you called them animals. So you didn't know what it meant (or are backpedaling.. .. ....)

"Feral" (which is what I assume you meant by "ferrel") means wild / untamed / animalistic.

[Kazanne]

If you weren't making a general statement about "people from council estates" with your posts, and Kazanne wasn't furthering it by pointing out that the few, *ahem*, "rough, feral" people she knows are also non-religious...

...then both posts, rather than being offensive, were simply entirely pointless. As in... they were saying nothing. At all.

I might as well say

"Oh yeah I knew a random guy once of non-specific origin who wasn't religious, and he owns a hat. So there. Also I know a girl who IS religious, and she has both a face and also feet."

What you WERE, in fact, suggesting was that you have anecdotal evidence that "uneducated scheme folks" are often non-religious, in an attempt to disprove LT's suggestion that there is a correlation between education and religiosity. Kazanne replied to you in order to back up this statement, by confirming that the "rough diamonds"(??? she just means rough people) she knows are indeed non-religious - and also "Feral, uncaring and hostile".

You're now trying to claim that you were only talking about those specific people. For, presumably, absolutely no reason at all because if you WERE both speaking just about those people, then you were not trying to make a point and thus had... well... no point. :shrug:

Just to be illustrative of the backpedaling, though...



7 posts later, the same people are suddenly described as "good-hearted". What? Are they uncaring and hostile, or are they good-hearted?

http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gifhttp://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gifhttp://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/images/smilies/backpeddling.gif

Have you never known people who look after and care for their own but are absolutely vile ,wild and cruel to others ? even the Krays adored their mother.

[Marsh.]

If you weren't making a general statement about "people from council estates" with your posts, and Kazanne wasn't furthering it by pointing out that the few, *ahem*, "rough, feral" people she knows are also non-religious...

...then both posts, rather than being offensive, were simply entirely pointless. As in... they were saying nothing. At all.

I might as well say

"Oh yeah I knew a random guy once of non-specific origin who wasn't religious, and he owns a hat. So there. Also I know a girl who IS religious, and she has both a face and also feet."

No, because you see, it wasn't a random comment.

It was a response to LT bringing the prospect of level of intelligence/education having a bearing on whether someone may be a believer or not. He made a point about there possibly being less believers in a group of people with higher intelligence. I was providing experiences of my own that show a counter argument to that.

But, by all means, take posts in a 20 page thread individually and see them as random and adding nothing and not in the context of the discussion continuing in a... thread.

You think I entered this thread and just decided "Oh, I'll make a random observation about a council estate"? In that case go back and read again.

What you WERE, in fact, suggesting was that you have anecdotal evidence that "uneducated scheme folks" are often non-religious

Where, exactly, did I say my anecdotal evidence proved LT wrong or even was evidence that proved anything about a general population of people? I didn't.

[user104658]

Have you never known people who look after and care for their own but are absolutely vile ,wild and cruel to others ? even the Krays adored their mother.

I know plenty of them, I'd call them loyal rather than good-hearted but that's not even the point, is it?

The point is... why did you mention those people at all, if you weren't suggesting the same as Marsh? Which is - though I'm sure he'll deny deny deny until the day he die - that his experience of "council estate people" is that they are less caring and less likely to be religious, and that because of this, it fdollows that those sorts of people in general are often like that.

It was used as a counter argument to LT's argument that uneducated people are more likely to be religious. It's all that can POSSIBLY have been meant by it. Otherwise there would literally have been no point in saying it at all. You, and he, were trying to make a point about religiosity vs education by using the "few" people you know as representative examples of a larger societal sub-group. I'm afraid that much is completely obvious.

[Kazanne]

You don't, or didn't, know what it means



You called them animals. THATS WHAT IT MEANS.



You didn't know that you called them animals. So you didn't know what it meant (or are backpedaling.. .. ....)

I haven't got time for people trying to impress others that they are a smartarse,you know full well what I meant,feral to me means wild and untamed,I had a ferel cat once,plus some people are animals ,infact worse than animals,but this is going off topic so,I will continue to let you lecture to the board the rights and wrongs of religion ,I am not here for point scoring,so off you go on that bike you are so fond of:wavey:

[user104658]

No, because you see, it wasn't a random comment.

It was a response to LT bringing the prospect of level of intelligence/education having a bearing on whether someone may be a believer or not. He made a point about there possibly being less believers in a group of people with higher intelligence. I was providing experiences of my own that show a counter argument to that.

But, by all means, take posts in a 20 page thread individually and see them as random and adding nothing and not in the context of the discussion continuing in a... thread.

You think I entered this thread and just decided "Oh, I'll make a random observation about a council estate"? In that case go back and read again.


You, and he, were trying to make a point about religiosity vs education by using the "few" people you know as representative examples of a larger societal sub-group. I'm afraid that much is completely obvious.

Thankyou for confirming this.

[Marsh.]

Thankyou for confirming this.

So, in the end, it was your comments coming several pages late that were actually pointless and nothing to do with the conversation being had?

Good to know.

[user104658]

I haven't got time for people trying to impress others that they are a smartarse,you know full well what I meant,feral to me means wild and untamed,I had a ferel cat once,plus some people are animals ,infact worse than animals,but this is going off topic so,I will continue to let you lecture to the board the rights and wrongs of religion ,I am not here for point scoring,so off you go on that bike you are so fond of:wavey:

So they are just wild and untamed people. You're not comparing them to animals at all. My apologies for this gross misunderstanding.

[user104658]

So, in the end, it was your comments coming several pages late that were actually pointless and nothing to do with the conversation being had?

Good to know.

No, it just took you several pages to admit that you were using your limited experiences of "rough people" to make generalised statements about all people with a lower level of education.

Now that you have confirmed that this WAS what you were doing, we can indeed move on :).

[Marsh.]

No, it just took you several pages to admit that you were using your limited experiences of "rough people" to make generalised statements about all people with a lower level of education.

Now that you have confirmed that this WAS what you were doing, we can indeed move on :).

No dear, keep up. I WASN'T doing that. :pat:

Again, Kizzy wasn't able to do this so maybe you can, show me where I made a comment generalising about all lower class people, rough people, low educated people or otherwise? I didn't.

But I do find it funny that I'm being accused of back pedalling. If I wanted to make a generalisation, I would do so and admit to it. I never post anything to then deny. I've been banned several times for saying what I think. :joker:

[user104658]

No dear, keep up. I WASN'T doing that. :pat:

Again, Kizzy wasn't able to do this so maybe you can, show me where I made a comment generalising about all lower class people, rough people, low educated people or otherwise? I didn't.


Okay.

It ("it" being your use of examples of people of lower education and socioeconimic status) was a response to LT bringing the prospect of level of intelligence/education having a bearing on whether someone may be a believer or not (in general). He made a point about there possibly being less believers in a group of people with higher intelligence (in general). I was providing experiences (anecdotal examples) of my own that show a counter argument to that (...by being representative of the group in general, as a whole.)


But I do find it funny that I'm being accused of back pedalling. If I wanted to make a generalisation, I would do so and admit to it. I never post anything to then deny. I've been banned several times for saying what I think. :joker:

I am starting to accept that you're not backpedaling though. I think that, bizarrely, you just have no idea that you actually did it in the first place :umm2:.

[user104658]

tl;dr - Using your own, personal, anecdotal experiences of a few examples as a counter-argument to a statement made about groups of people in general, is generalising. It can't possibly, in any way or under any circumstances, be described as anything else.