Jeremy Hunt forces contract on junior DRs

[Kizzy]

What are your thoughts?
If it's forced is it still a contract?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/feb/11/google-faces-grilling-at-public-accounts-committee-politics-live

[user104658]

Well if its all going "private-esque" that's pretty much the norm, unfortunately. Contract changes are forced constantly. You're told you "don't have to sign" with a nod and a wink that says "lol of course you have to sign". They'll find a way to get rid of you for misconduct or make you so miserable that you quit otherwise. Ahh, capitalism.

[Vicky.]

What a ****ing arsehole.

I kinda think sometimes that all of this is just happening so that in a few years when doctors are totally wiped out and making mistakes due to tiredness coz of ridiculous hours and such...people will be more supportive of privatizing the NHS :S

There is no other explanation I can think of for what this odious bastard is doing.

[Livia]

Suicidal decision by the government. I don't personally believe in striking, especially for the medical profession. However, I don't see that they were left much of an option and if the government does try to force the contract on them it will be just be one of many nails currently being hammered into the Conservative coffin.

[smudgie]

I would love to see exactly what is being offered to the doctors, as well as what is being taken away.
How it affects us as patients etc. What the wages are to start with, 13 and a half per cent pay rise sounds like an awful lot when compared to anything near what anyone else can expect in these times.
Hopefully now it has been imposed it can all be made public.

[bots]

I think the government are behaving like a shower of tossers at the moment. Even if they did have a valid case, there are better ways of approaching the issue. This intransigence in their attitude could see them out of government for a very long time.

[Kizzy]

They are past caring, everything of value has been sold, our deterrent is useless, our stocks worthless and cash has been disappearing into a conservative vortex for years under the guise of 'updating systems'.
Effectively the country is being wound down.
And we stood idly by as we didn't wish to be seen as a civil disobedient.

[Kizzy]

I would love to see exactly what is being offered to the doctors, as well as what is being taken away.
How it affects us as patients etc. What the wages are to start with, 13 and a half per cent pay rise sounds like an awful lot when compared to anything near what anyone else can expect in these times.
Hopefully now it has been imposed it can all be made public.

MPs got 11% will parliament now sit at weekends?

[smudgie]

MPs got 11% will parliament now sit at weekends?

Well, they have to have time to spend with their constituents, they can't be seen sat on their backsides arguing like a bunch of kids 7 days a week.

[joeysteele]

Hoped for better as a health secretary from Jeremy Hunt after the awful Andrew Lansley.
Sadly not the case.

A good few of my family work in the NHS, one who was a Junior Doctor already left for to work abroad last year.

This is a total shambles and disgrace from the govt. and will lead to more disharmony and destroyed morale as to the Junior Doctors.
He will reap what he sows from this one and all of it will be very sad for the NHS because of his and his govts uncompromising dictatorial attitude.

However voters were warned as to the NHS under this lot under Cameron in May last year and extremely unfortunately and sadly for the NHS,enough took no notice of all warnings.

[Tom4784]

He's a complete twat, a liar and inept at his job. This is only going to make things worse.

[Livia]

They are past caring, everything of value has been sold, our deterrent is useless, our stocks worthless and cash has been disappearing into a conservative vortex for years under the guise of 'updating systems'.
Effectively the country is being wound down.
And we stood idly by as we didn't wish to be seen as a civil disobedient.


You really are a glass-half-empty kinda gal...

[Kizzy]

You really are a glass-half-empty kinda gal...

Is that your personal or professional opinion?

[Northern Monkey]

What a ****ing arsehole.

I kinda think sometimes that all of this is just happening so that in a few years when doctors are totally wiped out and making mistakes due to tiredness coz of ridiculous hours and such...people will be more supportive of privatizing the NHS :S

There is no other explanation I can think of for what this odious bastard is doing.

I was expecting the word "liberty" instead of arsehole.

Arsehole did the trick though:laugh:

[joeysteele]

What a ****ing arsehole.

I kinda think sometimes that all of this is just happening so that in a few years when doctors are totally wiped out and making mistakes due to tiredness coz of ridiculous hours and such...people will be more supportive of privatizing the NHS :S

There is no other explanation I can think of for what this odious bastard is doing.

Very worrying that but I think as on many other big issues, you have probably hit the nail on the head again.

Lovely terminologies too as to Jeremy Hunt,sums him up really perfectly in my view.

[Vicky.]

Very worrying that but I think as on many other big issues, you have probably hit the nail on the head again.

Lovely terminologies too as to Jeremy Hunt,sums him up really perfectly in my view.

Best word for him rhymes with his surname I reckon :tongue:

[Kizzy]

Best word for him rhymes with his surname I reckon :tongue:

*high five*

[Livia]

Is that your personal or professional opinion?

I was going on the evidence available. I don't think the country is quite on its knees yet... That said, I am 100% against the Tories on this particular issue.

[arista]

http://news.sky.com/story/1640160/hunts-decision-carries-huge-political-risk

[Forcing junior doctors to accept a work contract with which they
profoundly disagree carries a huge political risk for the Government.
Despite two days of industrial action and nearly 7,000 medical procedures cancelled,
the gap between the NHS and the British Medical Association appears to be unbridgeable]


Yes its a Big Risk
I hope to get a Balanced Debate at 7PM
Live on Ch4HD news

[MTVN]

Hunt's intentions in putting patients first and creating a seven day NHS were fairly reasonable imo. No doubt the government has blundered its way along with these reforms but then the BMA haven't exactly covered themselves in glory either.

[the truth]

1) cant these doctors just leave England and work in wales or Scotland who are not part of hunts plane?
2) wasn't hunt told to resign when he helped push the through sky takeover deal 3 years agO

[Kizzy]

I was going on the evidence available. I don't think the country is quite on its knees yet... That said, I am 100% against the Tories on this particular issue.

I speak as I find, well we can't all be happy clappy optimists can we?

[the truth]

I speak as I find, well we can't all be happy clappy optimists can we?

honesty is optimism:wavey:

[joeysteele]

Have the BMA really acted that badly here.

Does anyone really and honestly believe that Junior Doctors who we know do, and who we want to continue doing so, as to saving lives, are actually so thick that they cannot work out a bad deal when they see it.

they too have analysed this supposed good deal of Hunts and the vast majority are furious with it.
Why to try to ease pressure on a rotten govt,( who are hell bent it seems on upsetting all areas of vital services from the Police, Firemen and now to Doctors),to say Doctors don't understand this deal and are being brainwashed by the BMA.
Doctors are highly intelligent people and have to be, to assume they are unable to see for themselves the pitfalls of this rotten policy, is really insulting to them.

The Health Secretary is usually supposed to consult,support and work with Doctors, not alienate them and drive them away and that is what he risks if he goes ahead with this stubborn headed view this deal is the only way forward in his view.
Already some signatories to the deal being imposed are asking for their names to be removed now.

Everyone wrong except for the govt,when in fact this govt is a shambles as to the NHS and after the lies of Cameron as to the original reforms from 2010, he should never have been trusted with it again.
Actually however, I would still now give him massive credit were he to step into this issue and make his Health secretary look at this again with far more involved consultation with the Junior Doctors from now on.

However, I won't hold my breath waiting for that but it is what he should now do.

[joeysteele]

Best word for him rhymes with his surname I reckon :tongue:

:joker: Good one.

[Kizzy]

honesty is optimism:wavey:

Cynicism is healthy :wavey:

[Jamesy]

I'm surprised no one quoted him from Radio 1 earlier. I was driving home and there was an interview with him (or a recorded one) and he literally said: "I know there are a lot of NHS workers listening in right now. Just to let you know I am forcing the contract on junior doctors and we are coming after you next".

What a dick.

[Kizzy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-literally-ignores-the-concerns-of-a-junior-doctor-confronting-him-in-westminster-a6867381.html

[DemolitionRed]

According to the Economist, 90 per cent of junior doctors said they would consider quitting.

What they can't do is accept a contract that's both bad for patients, bad for them and bad for the future.

[Kizzy]

Ah well our autocratic system just sorted it so.. :shrug:

[arista]

Balanced report on Ch4HD News
was just on.

Jon Snow was live outside with Jr. Doctors
and had a studio interview with Hunt

[Jack_]

I'm surprised no one quoted him from Radio 1 earlier. I was driving home and there was an interview with him (or a recorded one) and he literally said: "I know there are a lot of NHS workers listening in right now. Just to let you know I am forcing the contract on junior doctors and we are coming after you next".

What a dick.

I just laughed, and then pulled this face: :umm2:

The man is an authoritarian, delusional wanker.

[Vicky.]

I'm surprised no one quoted him from Radio 1 earlier. I was driving home and there was an interview with him (or a recorded one) and he literally said: "I know there are a lot of NHS workers listening in right now. Just to let you know I am forcing the contract on junior doctors and we are coming after you next".

What a dick.

Erm...did he actually say that?!

[Kizzy]

I wouldn't put it past him ... tosser.

[Vicky.]

If he did then he is even more of a moron than I originally thought.

Mind he will be fine when all our NHS staff pack up and go work somewhere where they are appreciated...as he can afford private healthcare..so why should he care about pissing off NHS staff :rolleyes:

[Jamesy]

Yes he did say that. Pretty much the minute I got home I texted my mum it before I forgot what he said exactly. :laugh: The way he said it made me laugh (and also made me think 'twat'), he sounded like some killer with a plan.

I work in the NHS myself (he's coming to get me :worry: ) so I wasn't impressed with the comment.

[Z]

Best word for him rhymes with his surname I reckon :tongue:

Complete punt, I agree. There's always a scapegoat - I feel sorry for any junior doctors having to deal with this ****.

[Jack_]

^ do you know what time it was? I checked both Newsbeat's and couldn't find anything, might've been in one of the shorter bulletins

@Jamesy

[Jamesy]

It was around 5pm (or there abouts)

[DemolitionRed]

Rumour has it that he only works three days a week.

[MTVN]

I find it very hard to believe Hunt said that tbh, he has maintained from the start that he supports junior doctors and has tried to avoid criticising them. You can completely disagree with that but that is at least what Hunt is trying to claim. He has reserved most of the criticism for the BMA.

[Kizzy]

I find it very hard to believe Hunt said that tbh, he has maintained from the start that he supports junior doctors and has tried to avoid criticising them. You can completely disagree with that but that is at least what Hunt is trying to claim. He has reserved most of the criticism for the BMA.

Ignoring people isn't supporting them, I'm going to comb the web till I find that quote now :laugh:

[MTVN]

Ignoring people isn't supporting them, I'm going to comb the web till I find that quote now :laugh:

But in any interview of Hunt's that I've seen he always claims that he supports junior doctors and does care about them. I think if he said something like that it would be quite widely reported.

[Kizzy]

But in any interview of Hunt's that I've seen he always claims that he supports junior doctors and does care about them. I think if he said something like that it would be quite widely reported.

What he says and what he does are two different things, never once has he sat down with a junior DR and had a discussion, as seen today he actively ignored questions posed. Where is evidence of this support?

[MTVN]

What he says and what he does are two different things, never once has he sat down with a junior DR and had a discussion, as seen today he actively ignored questions posed. Where is evidence of this support?

I didn't say they were the same, I was just questioning whether he really would have said that.

Hunt and the government have taken part in painstaking negotiations for three years though. The final sticking points were over pay; the government made an offer which assured doctors of a much more generous deal than firefighters, police officers etc. get and it was rejected.

[Kizzy]

I didn't say they were the same, I was just questioning whether he really would have said that.

Hunt and the government have taken part in painstaking negotiations for three years though. The final sticking points were over pay; the government made an offer which assured doctors of a much more generous deal than firefighters, police officers etc. get and it was rejected.

painstaking? Hunt wouldn't budge on 22 points, how can you suggest the deal is generous, who knows what it is or what impact it will have.
Not sure how drawing comparisons between doctors and firefighters is relevant here either.

[joeysteele]

The actual deal is far away from how Hunt presents it, it is because the Junior Doctors themselves have gone through it with a fine toothcomb and have found the many flaws that exist in it.

The only person I can see trying to mislead on this is Hunt himself and he has made a right pigs ear of getting this a done deal for this govt.

It is massive failure on his part that he now threatens to impose it,that says all about him really and nothing about the Junior Doctors, who he ignores and then,to add insult to injury, dismisses the concerns of them too.

[the truth]

cant find that quote

[joeysteele]

As to misleading,well the govts own negotiator furnished yesterday that the heads of 20 health authorities would support the govt in imposing this contract.

On the news briefly today,no less than 10 of them, half in fact, have said they want their signatures removed as they do not support the imposing of this contract by the govt.

We are being misled and for me it looks far more like the misleading as to the proper content of the contract and the means to justify imposing it against the Junior Doctors wishes, is all being done from the govt and its sources, probably no one else.

[Kizzy]

Parliament could be set to debate the idea of a vote of 'no confidence' against Jeremy Hunt after a petition calling for a debate on the issue gained more than 200,000 signatures in less than two days.
The petition was posted on the parliamentary website amid a growing backlash against the Health Secretary after he announced he would be imposing junior doctors contracts despite opposition from the medical community.
Hunt has stood firm on his decision saying it is "not tenable"for him to give in to a union "if it's the wrong thing for patients".


http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-13/calls-for-a-vote-of-no-confidence-in-jeremy-hunt-gathers-steam-as-petition-gets-more-than-200-000-signatures/

[joeysteele]

Parliament could be set to debate the idea of a vote of 'no confidence' against Jeremy Hunt after a petition calling for a debate on the issue gained more than 200,000 signatures in less than two days.
The petition was posted on the parliamentary website amid a growing backlash against the Health Secretary after he announced he would be imposing junior doctors contracts despite opposition from the medical community.
Hunt has stood firm on his decision saying it is "not tenable"for him to give in to a union "if it's the wrong thing for patients".


http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-13/calls-for-a-vote-of-no-confidence-in-jeremy-hunt-gathers-steam-as-petition-gets-more-than-200-000-signatures/

See, although I am against Hunt on this issue,I am not that sure it is him,Andrew Lansley was the man steering that disastrous and damaging top down re-organisation of the NHS.
However he was not seen as presenting it the best way possible.
We then got Hunt put in as health Secretary and I think it was hoped he would be able to use more charm in getting controversial plans enacted.

However he too now is in the doghouse as to his treatment of NHS Junior Doctors and this shambles unfolding now too.

However, the man at the top is the one who can actually order a stop to this, as he did after the outcry against the original top down re-organisation when the Lib Dems were getting cold feet as to supporting it.
Hunt may just be a bit of a scapegoat here for the real plans originally drafted by this PM and Andrew Lansley.

Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually,I even welcomed his appointment in place of Lansley, however it still seems possible to me that he is not really doing his plans here but is being forced to continue the disastrous path as to the NHS which are really the ideas of this PM and te former HS Lansley.

I hope there could be a vote of no confidence in him now, it wouldn't be won of course but it should be a massive embarrassment to even have to have one for him.
I lay the blame for this likely more at the PMs door than Hunts.

[the truth]

See, although I am against Hunt on this issue,I am not that sure it is him,Andrew Lansley was the man steering that disastrous and damaging top down re-organisation of the NHS.
However he was not see as presenting it the best way possible.
We then got Hunt put in as health Secretary and I think it was hoped he would be able to use more charm in getting controversial plans enacted.

However he too now is in the doghouse as to his treatment of NHS Junior Doctors and this shambles unfolding now too.

However, the man at the top is the one who can actually order a stop to this, as he did after the outcry against the original top down re-organisation when the Lib Dems were getting cold feet as to supporting it.
Hunt may just be a bit of a scapegoat here for the real plans originally drafted by this PM and Andrew Lansley.

Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually,I even welcomed his appointment in place of Lansley, however it still seems possible to me that he is not really doing his plans here but is being forced to continue the disastrous path as to the NHS which are really the ideas of this PM and te former HS Lansley.

I hope there could be a vote of no confidence in him now, it wouldn't be won of course but it should be a massive embarrassment to even have to have one for him.
I lay the blame for this likely more at the PMs door than Hunts.

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

[DemolitionRed]

'Jeremy Hunt is a rather amiable and decent guy usually'

I heartily disagree. But then I've read both the books he co-wrote- "Direct Democracy" and "The Plan". In both books he's scathing of the NHS and suggests how the conservatives will denationalize this antiquates social structure in 9 easy steps and implement a US type insurance system.

I firmly believe Hunt wanted to get his grubby hands on this. He's the one man who absolutely should not be allowed to meddle with our NHS.

He's got a track record for setting up rogue deals and passing on information in a sneaky fashion. In 2012 Hunt was caught red handed as a tax dodger, but for me, the worst thing Hunt ever did was publicly try to pass responsibility of the Hillsborough disaster back at the Liverpool fans.

[DemolitionRed]

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Can you elaborate on that?

[Tom4784]

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

[Tom4784]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

[AnnieK]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I agree with this...(hopefully anyway)

[Vicky.]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I have a feeling this may happen too

[joeysteele]

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.

[joeysteele]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I think you make a strong point there again.

[bots]

We can all agree and disagree around the politics about wether the "proposals" are correct or not. I have a more fundamental issue with this edict, and its unfortunately the norm these days rather than the exception. It is the philosophy of ... we are bigger than you, so you will do as we say or you can **** off. I just can't subscribe to that in what is supposed to be an adult civilised world.

At some point there has to be some action to redress this imbalance, otherwise something is going to break.

[the truth]

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes. why haven't the oh so caring junior doctors fought for 24 hour weekend staffing before? oh that's right because a load of them don't want to work weekends, some will but only for double time the nhs cant afford. the junior docs have a 13.5% pay rise, they have the safer work patterns so their maximum working hours falls from 91 to 72 hours...

they even have the option if they don't like it to go to wales Ireland or Scotland who offer the old contract. sadly those nations will see tens of thousands of innocent people die from neglect on the weekend over the coming years, thats a FACT that's not scaremongering by the way....the docs have zero to complain about. they should stop holding the country to ransom and risking the lives of their patients with their disgusting petty strikes and their greed....hunt is 100% right, the doctors here are 100% wrong,

[joeysteele]

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes. why haven't the oh so caring junior doctors fought for 24 hour weekend staffing before? oh that's right because a load of them don't want to work weekends, some will but only for double time the nhs cant afford. the junior docs have a 13.5% pay rise, they have the safer work patterns so their maximum working hours falls from 91 to 72 hours...

they even have the option if they don't like it to go to wales Ireland or Scotland who offer the old contract. sadly those nations will see tens of thousands of innocent people die from neglect on the weekend over the coming years, thats a FACT that's not scaremongering by the way....the docs have zero to complain about. they should stop holding the country to ransom and risking the lives of their patients with their disgusting petty strikes and their greed....hunt is 100% right, the doctors here are 100% wrong,

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.

[Kizzy]

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.


How he got away with this I don't know :/

[the truth]

Well for a start the weekend figures he talks about have included Monday and Fridays figures in them too.
Anyway, I am probably massively wasting my time on this with you but I think you are wrong and since you already have a really low opinion of the NHS anyway, no doubt from personal experience and I respect that totally.
The strikes however are 'NOT' about money but the safety of Patients, no one should have imposed on them conditions they believe can be dangerous and make them unable to carry out their duties properly.

It is 40 years since Doctors were pushed into a situation where they felt a need to strike and even though striking, they are still available for emergency situations.
That last strike too, 40 years ago was in fact against a Labour govt at the time.
So Doctors are not the ones playing politics,and even on this issue, even it seems the majority of Consultants back the Junior Doctors on this as well.

So to you, all in the medical profession are wrong, the ones delivering the care, and the govt is right 100%,sorry bit that is ridiculous by any standards.

The junior doctors are 100% wrong, period. If this was about patients well being the doctors would have fought for 24 hour thorough weekend service years ago....to see so many vulnerable sick people frankly neglected for years on weekends is a disgrace. the death rates are higher on weekends , that's a fact you must accept. it is also infinitely harder to get a simple potentially life saving scan for blood clots etc


for the junior doctors to use sick peoples lives as collateral to try and bully their way to double rates on the weekends is frankly sick. if we had enough foreign doctors id replace all the ones who went on strike and broke their hippocratic oaths.

[the truth]

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-deaths-nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

[the truth]

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.


You only disagree because of your political leanings, youre ignoring the FACTS. so you Disagree? You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS? pls explain how you disagree with these FACTS and this comprehensive independent survey? pls back it up with your FACTS to counter these FACTS. Its you against 300,000 patients

[DemolitionRed]

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes.


New Labour were heading the NHS in the same direction as the Conservatives are now and I'm in no doubt that NL in its old format would have their very own version of 'Hunt' if they were now in office. NL sold off more of the NHS in its 13 years than the Conservatives ever achieved. Like I've said before, Conservatives and New Labour are the same meat, different gravy. In the last 25 years we have not had one leading party who has tried to protect the downfall of the NHS. They wanted it to fail.

The excessive deaths over weekends can't just be attributed to lack of junior doctors. There are not so many consultants around at the weekend and certain departments, including admissions and access to diagnostics wind down at the weekend (which is ridiculous) and this inevitably causes a back log. Weekend deaths will continue to be a problem regardless of Hunts new contract.

[DemolitionRed]

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-deaths-nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

Did you read the bit that said: "too few senior staff"

[Kizzy]

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

[DemolitionRed]

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

Plus GP services are less accessible at the weekend, people are less likely to seek medical help on a Saturday than they are on a Monday and this can make what was curable on Saturday, incurable by Sunday.

As for junior doctors, whilst there may be plenty of them at the weekend (especially in A&E) to some extent their hands are tied because if 6 juniors have to wait for one GP/consultant to sign off an admission, those junior doctors just get stuck in the same old backlog along with their patients.

[bots]

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

[the truth]

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

it is complex, but the truth is simple. too many people are neglected and die on weekends and something must be done about it.

[the truth]

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

[Kizzy]

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?

[Kizzy]

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

[the truth]

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

less than the majority

[joeysteele]

You only disagree because of your political leanings, youre ignoring the FACTS. so you Disagree? You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS? pls explain how you disagree with these FACTS and this comprehensive independent survey? pls back it up with your FACTS to counter these FACTS. Its you against 300,000 patients

Oh don't talk as if you know me please, I have supported the Conservative party as to the NHS in the past and would do any party if I believed them right.

I think with respect you are talking about yourself more than me since all you can do is run Labour down and blame them for everything.
Also your posts over the years on here show not the slightest bit of respect or appreciation anyway for NHS staff.

Yes I do disagree with what you say as I have not seen a single independent survey that supports what you say.
There is emergency cover 7 days a week now in the NHS,yes there may be problems at certain periods but you do not solve that by taking care away other days of the week and stretching it out even more over 7 days.

More Doctors are needed, not fewer and this imposing of this contract will inevitably lose Doctors possibly on a scale not seen before,then it will not be weekend care to worry about,it will be all week care to worry over.
Junior Doctors have not taken this decision lightly and even your man Nigel Farage said on QT that the govt was right to want to have 7 day full care but they had gone about it totally the wrong way.

You do not get the goodwill and support for change if you alienate the people you need to supply it, that is what imposing this contract will do and it may yet even lead to even more dissent in the NHS.

As for your independent surveys, you carefully avoid the other point they make in surveys that there would be no guarantee whatsoever that even more care at weekends would have avoided any increase in any of the deaths.
Another said it was in partly down to those taking Strokes,often elderly and some health authorities have looked at more rapid response and treatment for such cases already, outside this new contract of the govts.


No one would disagree that all in the NHS is not perfect, of course it isn't, it still is underfunded and being so massive, errors will occur, they occur far more in much smaller organisations than the NHS.
This contract, which will alienate further vital junior Doctors, and Consultants too who once junior Doctors start leaving, where likely nursing staff will too, already demoralised from the top down re-organisation, find greater workloads.
That will bring likely a great deal more problems as to care across the board in the NHS.

I really think Vicky hit this on the head earlier in this thread, when she said this could be a move to so shatter the NHS as it stands whereby it is privatised.
Already the lies are in place, I said earlier, the govts negotiator in a report said 20, yes only 20 of all the Health Authorities, supported the govt imposing this contract on junior Doctors,then it turns out that is lies, as already at least 10 of them have said they do not agree with imposing the contract and want their signatures removed.

You are very 'rightly' quick to get at Blair and the Labour govt as to lying on Iraq, well a lot of misleading and lies are being tried on this junior Doctors contract, not at all from the Doctors but from this govt.
Also for goodness sake,300,000 patients, how many millions are treated by the NHS week in week out and how many of those millions,not hundreds of thousands are grateful for the care they received any day of the week.
Yes errors need to be stopped as much as is humanly possible,yes care always needs to be looked at across the board,yes too stern action must be taken when serious errors occur.
However the best way to achieve all that is to have those who have to provide the care properly consulted and in agreement.
Not take a dictatorial stance and demand people do as they are told or go.

A Doctor is a vital and precious being to have in the NHS,alienating them and losing them is the most negative and pointless thing to even think of risking doing.
Yet that is what Hunt and this govt are doing and risking if they impose this contract.

I have maintained on here my view from joining in 2010, that the NHS should not be a political football, no single party has 100% the right policies for it.
I have always said the NHS should be out of party politics and its running decided on a consensual policy to build up and support not keep bringing it down by constant unnecessary change.
I still say that is the better way for the NHS.

That is why I agreed with Andy Burnham,he wanted a more consensual approach to the NHS and also to bring together the social and health issues into the NHS system as to care too.
He and the Lib Dems in fact worked on that and talked about it in 2009/10, he wanted all parties involved but the Conservative Andrew Lansley walked away from it
.
I thought the deceit of the top down re-organisation was bad enough but now this,this is simply a disgrace and far beyond any defence as to this particular govt at all.
So sorry I will not join your personal angst against the NHS,I see it as one of the best things the UK has and I would hope to see it, and its Staff, at all levels being supported by politicians not dictated to by them.

[the truth]

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?

no burying your head in the sand while innocent thousand die of neglect on the weekends.

[Kizzy]

less than the majority

So 'the majority' work through the week and 'the minority' at weekends?... Sorry that's a tad simplistic, and not the issue surrounding the new jr doctors contract.

[DemolitionRed]

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

[DemolitionRed]

You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS?

They are only facts that more people die at the weekend but the statistics are Friday to Monday not just Saturday and Sunday. Those statistics don't suggest its lack of junior doctors as a contribution.

[Kizzy]

Wow...

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt held a drinks and canapés evening despite doctors who had planned to attend being told it was cancelled.

Those hoping to attend the event on Friday at a hotel in Fareham, Hampshire, were told the event had been cancelled.
Some junior doctors and their supporters had said it may be worthwhile to buy tickets to engage Mr Hunt in a debate about his controversial new employment contract.

Doctors who had paid £15 for the event later found out it had quietly been moved to another location, with those in attendance being checked to ensure they hadn't brought any medics with them.

Dr Kathryn Carey-Jones wrote on Facebook: “ I could have accepted being told I am not allowed to attend given recent events, but I was lied to, to keep me away ...
"This is dishonesty at its best and would not be accepted from a doctor to a politician. If this is the way the local Conservatives treat their local doctors, what can we expect from the rest? Imagine if we lied to the public like this ...”

GP Emma Nash told Portsmouth News a friend she was going with, a Conservative party member, was refused access to the venue until she convinced the organisers there were no doctors with her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-talk-goes-ahead-after-doctors-were-told-it-was-cancelled-a6873546.html

[DemolitionRed]

laughs. Maybe we just need to give him a shovel.

[the truth]

So 'the majority' work through the week and 'the minority' at weekends?... Sorry that's a tad simplistic, and not the issue surrounding the new jr doctors contract.

that's whats happening, those are the facts , you simply living in denial

[the truth]

They are only facts that more people die at the weekend but the statistics are Friday to Monday not just Saturday and Sunday. Those statistics don't suggest its lack of junior doctors as a contribution.

wrong. people admitted on a sunday are 16% more likely to die than those admitted on a Wednesday. clearly that is directly attributable to the skeleton staff on weekends. common sense , decency and a sense of morality must be shown and something major had to be done, the tories had the guts and morality to do something, the labour cowards did nothing and let innocent thousands die of neglect.

[Vicky.]

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-deaths-nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day? :conf:

[the truth]

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

That's silliest post you ever written. youre trying to say the fact youre 16% more likely to die when admitted on a sunday than on a Wednesday has nothing to do with the fact there is skeleton staff on a sunday compared to Wednesday? youre in denial , youre fudging and hiding from the truth and reality and frankly youre lying to youself. no doubt if you had a close family member who had died on a sunday through not being able to get the full and proper medical attention you get in the midweek you would think very very differently.

your point about junior doctors is untrue. only SOME junior doctors work weekends, the majority do not. the other staff you mention will be shortly be put on similar work rotas to get the 24 hour care promosed

[the truth]

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day? :conf:

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

[Vicky.]

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

The way it is worded makes not much sense though?

Its all about dying within 30 days of admission date right? So again, if someone was admitted on a Sunday, but then died later in the week...would this class as a Sunday death (or % ) for the sake of the poll? Because if this is how it works, it actually proves nothing given they didn't even die at the weekend, they were just admitted then? They could have survived 3 weeksned and then died midweek...if that makes sense?

Or have I got it totally wrong and its nothing to do with 30 days and they die ON the day they are admitted?

I'm not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely don't understand the way its all worded :umm2:

[Kizzy]

that's whats happening, those are the facts , you simply living in denial

What facts? you've shown me no facts on how many Drs are rostered weekend and weekdays to give your theory any credence.

[Vicky.]

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

[Kizzy]

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

You had to mention nurses didn't you ? :hehe:

[Vicky.]

You had to mention nurses didn't you ? :hehe:

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away :conf:

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

[Kizzy]

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away :conf:

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency :(

[Vicky.]

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency :(

Never ever had an issue with a nurse bar a very slight problem with one who tried to tell me that getting IV morphine was exactly the same (both pain relief and time to kick in) as taking 2 30mg CODEINE!!! Had never heard such tosh in my life. It did turn out that one of the other nurses was off and my nurse was trying to cut her own workload (didn't want to be faffing about with IV stuff, although I already had a line in...) but come on. I am not ****ing stupid. Just be honest with me :laugh:

[the truth]

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

[the truth]

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency :(

again the contract you hate (simply because youre anti tory) will help in reducing the need for agency workers, for reasons outlined in my last post

[Kizzy]

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

There is no funding for staffing and yet fines for not having adequate staffing levels, therefore agency is relied on. How is this a BMA issue? It's down to trusts.

[Kizzy]

again the contract you hate (simply because youre anti tory) will help in reducing the need for agency workers, for reasons outlined in my last post

Nope My sis is a band 5 who recently qualified as an ANP, she knows the ins and out of trusts and the issues they face.

[Vicky.]

There is no funding for staffing and yet fines for not having adequate staffing levels, therefore agency is relied on. How is this a BMA issue? It's down to trusts.

Yup my mother goes mental about this. A bunch of her friends were laid off...and now their jobs are filled with agency workers on double the wage that her friends were on? As the hours need to be filled still...what sense does this make?

Granted she doesn't work in a hospital...she works ina carehome for people with Alzheimers, but I imagine its the same.

[kirklancaster]

Wow...

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt held a drinks and canapés evening despite doctors who had planned to attend being told it was cancelled.

Those hoping to attend the event on Friday at a hotel in Fareham, Hampshire, were told the event had been cancelled.
Some junior doctors and their supporters had said it may be worthwhile to buy tickets to engage Mr Hunt in a debate about his controversial new employment contract.

Doctors who had paid £15 for the event later found out it had quietly been moved to another location, with those in attendance being checked to ensure they hadn't brought any medics with them.

Dr Kathryn Carey-Jones wrote on Facebook: “ I could have accepted being told I am not allowed to attend given recent events, but I was lied to, to keep me away ...
"This is dishonesty at its best and would not be accepted from a doctor to a politician. If this is the way the local Conservatives treat their local doctors, what can we expect from the rest? Imagine if we lied to the public like this ...”

GP Emma Nash told Portsmouth News a friend she was going with, a Conservative party member, was refused access to the venue until she convinced the organisers there were no doctors with her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-talk-goes-ahead-after-doctors-were-told-it-was-cancelled-a6873546.html

This idiot is a MAJOR embarrassment to the Tories, and it is time he was given the boot.

He has NO tact. NO diplomacy, and even less guile.

His arrogant, 'bulldozing' tactics are becoming totally unpalatable and ever more despotic.

[smudgie]

Never ever had an issue with a nurse bar a very slight problem with one who tried to tell me that getting IV morphine was exactly the same (both pain relief and time to kick in) as taking 2 30mg CODEINE!!! Had never heard such tosh in my life. It did turn out that one of the other nurses was off and my nurse was trying to cut her own workload (didn't want to be faffing about with IV stuff, although I already had a line in...) but come on. I am not ****ing stupid. Just be honest with me :laugh:

Strewth, the thick beggar.
I have 2x30mg codeine 4 times a day and they don't have the kick that morphine does...oh if only:joker:

[DemolitionRed]

That's silliest post you ever written. youre trying to say the fact youre 16% more likely to die when admitted on a sunday than on a Wednesday has nothing to do with the fact there is skeleton staff on a sunday compared to Wednesday? youre in denial , youre fudging and hiding from the truth and reality and frankly youre lying to youself. no doubt if you had a close family member who had died on a sunday through not being able to get the full and proper medical attention you get in the midweek you would think very very differently.

Oh for goodness sake! I said there is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels. Are you suggesting that most junior doctors could make all the difference to a patient living or dying? I beg to differ, especially with those fresh out of med school and are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

[the truth]

This idiot is a MAJOR embarrassment to the Tories, and it is time he was given the boot.

He has NO tact. NO diplomacy, and even less guile.

His arrogant, 'bulldozing' tactics are becoming totally unpalatable and ever more despotic.

if only you'd show such anger at the thousands of innocent people die from neglect on weekends due toi the current system of weekend skeleton staffing

[Vicky.]

Strewth, the thick beggar.
I have 2x30mg codeine 4 times a day and they don't have the kick that morphine does...oh if only:joker:

It was just ridiculous, I had been on IV morphine for 4 days by that point too, and it has in my medical records that my tolerance to codeine is ridiculous and it takes (unsafe) 300mg doses for it to even have an effect on my normal rib pain, let alone pre-op pain :D

[kirklancaster]

if only you'd show such anger at the thousands of innocent people die from neglect on weekends due toi the current system of weekend skeleton staffing

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.

[the truth]

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.

the labour fans who walk on by as 1000s die from neglect on weekends are infinitely more arrogant that hunt youre anger is 100% in the wrong place

[bots]

I have maintained on here my view from joining in 2010, that the NHS should not be a political football, no single party has 100% the right policies for it.
I have always said the NHS should be out of party politics and its running decided on a consensual policy to build up and support not keep bringing it down by constant unnecessary change.
I still say that is the better way for the NHS.


I agree with this Joey. There are easily 100 examples from each side supporting individual parties agendas. The NHS is a huge organisation, so this will always be the case. I also feel that labour and the conservatives take pleasure out of pointing faults out and using the NHS for their own political point scoring

Unfortunately, as the NHS budget is so huge, it will always form the backbone of a party's political agenda, but if it were ever possible, I would remove it from both their incompetent hands

[DemolitionRed]

the labour fans who walk on by as 1000s die from neglect on weekends are infinitely more arrogant that hunt youre anger is 100% in the wrong place

This is not about whether you're left or right wing. Many Conservative and Labour supporters including Conservative and Labour politicians do not agree with everything their party is doing. What your saying here is, if you support the Tories, you must support what Hunt is doing :conf:

[kirklancaster]

I agree with this Joey. There are easily 100 examples from each side supporting individual parties agendas. The NHS is a huge organisation, so this will always be the case. I also feel that labour and the conservatives take pleasure out of pointing faults out and using the NHS for their own political point scoring

Unfortunately, as the NHS budget is so huge, it will always form the backbone of a party's political agenda, but if it were ever possible, I would remove it from both their incompetent hands

And I agree with you and Joey. The NHS should not be a 'political football'.

[DemolitionRed]

Looks like we are all being conned.

If you want to see who is really to blame for our hospital shambles, you should read this http://koshh.org/the-connection-between-the-junior-doctors-contract-and-the-american-corporate-takeover-of-the-nhs

Junior doctors’ loss of income and increased hours performing routine work in previously defined unsocial hours will increase profitability for the new players who will be providing healthcare by sweating the assets.
The prospect of a 30% reduction in pay through restriction of unsocial hours payment and increased working week has been the prompt for protest and a potential spark for a brain drain with thousands preparing documentation to emigrate.

Leaving the NHS for pastures new is an entirely justified response but will do nothing to defend the NHS for the relatives and friends left behind who may need to rely on it for care. Those that leave now in the hope of coming back later when the dust has settled may find that the NHS has dwindled to a threadbare remnant in their absence, and the country will be a worse place for it. We are collectively faced with one of the greatest political betrayal of the public interest in destroying the best healthcare system in the industrialised world and replacing with a model resembling the worst.

[Kizzy]

Looks like we are all being conned.

If you want to see who is really to blame for our hospital shambles, you should read this http://koshh.org/the-connection-between-the-junior-doctors-contract-and-the-american-corporate-takeover-of-the-nhs

Junior doctors’ loss of income and increased hours performing routine work in previously defined unsocial hours will increase profitability for the new players who will be providing healthcare by sweating the assets.
The prospect of a 30% reduction in pay through restriction of unsocial hours payment and increased working week has been the prompt for protest and a potential spark for a brain drain with thousands preparing documentation to emigrate.

Leaving the NHS for pastures new is an entirely justified response but will do nothing to defend the NHS for the relatives and friends left behind who may need to rely on it for care. Those that leave now in the hope of coming back later when the dust has settled may find that the NHS has dwindled to a threadbare remnant in their absence, and the country will be a worse place for it. We are collectively faced with one of the greatest political betrayal of the public interest in destroying the best healthcare system in the industrialised world and replacing with a model resembling the worst.

Of course and we've been complicit in the destruction, look at the waiting times fiasco, sold as a sure sign of a failing system unable to cope and subsequently affected areas were put out for tender or had funding slashed.
Now waiting times are fine, it's well worth it for a 'quality' service.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/15/jeremy-hunt-on-the-nhs-i-think-this-decade-needs-to-see-the-quality-revolution#comment-68692891

[DemolitionRed]

I have Hunts co-authored book "Direct Democracy" but its not presently available on Amazon or Waterstones. I have however managed to find some relevant sections here though https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/direct_democracy___an_agenda_for_a_new_model_party .pdf

Here are a few snippets:

The problem with the NHS is not one of resources. Rather, it is that the system remains a centrally run, state monopoly, designed over half a century ago.
We should fund patients, either through the tax system or by way of universal insurance, to purchase health care from the provider of their choice.

Rather than a lack of resources, the reason for the NHS's poor performance lies in its structure. The NHS designed over half a century ago, at a time of rationing and deep poverty. It was, and remains, a child of its time, conceived on the principle that the benefit state should be a monopoly provider.

Our ambitions should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.


This book is worth buying if you can eventually get hold of it, though don't take much notice of statistics because they come without an ounce of evidence. What is concerning is the lengthy talks about Conservative ideas to privatize state schools Because what is being suggested in this book is exactly what is going on in our new 'academies' in our present times.

[Kizzy]

I have Hunts co-authored book "Direct Democracy" but its not presently available on Amazon or Waterstones. I have however managed to find some relevant sections here though https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/direct_democracy___an_agenda_for_a_new_model_party .pdf

Here are a few snippets:

The problem with the NHS is not one of resources. Rather, it is that the system remains a centrally run, state monopoly, designed over half a century ago.
We should fund patients, either through the tax system or by way of universal insurance, to purchase health care from the provider of their choice.

Rather than a lack of resources, the reason for the NHS's poor performance lies in its structure. The NHS designed over half a century ago, at a time of rationing and deep poverty. It was, and remains, a child of its time, conceived on the principle that the benefit state should be a monopoly provider.

Our ambitions should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.


This book is worth buying if you can eventually get hold of it, though don't take much notice of statistics because they come without an ounce of evidence. What is concerning is the lengthy talks about Conservative ideas to privatize state schools Because what is being suggested in this book is exactly what is going on in our new 'academies' in our present times.

Thankyou so much for that DR, so interesting and terrifying at the same time :/
There is too I'd say a drive to deprofessionalise teaching, as it's impossible to do that with health provision the alternative is to get rid.
By 2020 there will be nothing left, nothing.

[DemolitionRed]

Thankyou so much for that DR, so interesting and terrifying at the same time :/
There is too I'd say a drive to deprofessionalise teaching, as it's impossible to do that with health provision the alternative is to get rid.
By 2020 there will be nothing left, nothing.

They are certainly trying to deprofessionalize a lot of the health care departments Kizzy. My GP now has one doctor on duty at any one time and they tend to be newly qualified GP's; the rest are nurse practitioners.

A friend of mine who has FM had been referred to a pain clinic in Leeds and waited a staggering three months to be seen, became suspicious that the man who was asking her to go through her symptoms whilst he busily typed up her notes on a computer, wasn't a doctor. It turned out he wasn't even a qualified nurse but someone who had been trained to say all the right things. To make a comparison, I used a pain clinic in London a few years ago and I was seen by a doctor and offered a whole load of options (medicine wise). All my friend was offered was a therapy group to talk about her pain.

This is what happens when you have medicine for profit business. Less and less will become available to us and eventually we will be expected, just like our American friends, to have insurance cover or get the barest minimum.

[Kizzy]

They are certainly trying to deprofessionalize a lot of the health care departments Kizzy. My GP now has one doctor on duty at any one time and they tend to be newly qualified GP's; the rest are nurse practitioners.

A friend of mine who has FM had been referred to a pain clinic in Leeds and waited a staggering three months to be seen, became suspicious that the man who was asking her to go through her symptoms whilst he busily typed up her notes on a computer, wasn't a doctor. It turned out he wasn't even a qualified nurse but someone who had been trained to say all the right things. To make a comparison, I used a pain clinic in London a few years ago and I was seen by a doctor and offered a whole load of options (medicine wise). All my friend was offered was a therapy group to talk about her pain.

This is what happens when you have medicine for profit business. Less and less will become available to us and eventually we will be expected, just like our American friends, to have insurance cover or get the barest minimum.

Actually you're right my sister is an ANP and she is constantly reminding practice managers that are constantly 'suggesting' things ...Like ANPs doing care home visits, most complex care issues are way out of her competency. Now you would think they would be happy for her to point this out and save embarrassment should it be discovered? Not so.
She is taking her ANP training and going back to the minor injuries unit she left to take a the position in GP practice.
I'm glad your friend found out when she did, it's the norm now to be placed with ANP if you don't specify you require a doctors appointment. Has your friend joined any FM support groups? they are a great place to find out about available treatments.
I am seriously considering getting some health insurance, my son has a congenital heart condition and I'm just not as confident as I'd like to be. He was due a 2yr check last november, I've chased it up but he's still not been sent for! :(

[user104658]

the labour fans who walk on by as 1000s die from neglect on weekends are infinitely more arrogant that hunt your anger is 100% in the wrong place

I think yours is too to be fair, truth. It's probably true that neglect happens (and moreso at the weekends) due to understaffing, but the only way to address that is for there to be a massive increase in funding to ensure that hospitals ARE adequately staffed at all times. The Tories are not going to provide that funding. They're going to find more and more excuses to cut it, whilst placing the blame elsewhere.

Properly staffing hospitals requres MORE STAFF and more money to pay them. Not simply shoehorning the current staff into longer hours for the same (or less) pay.

[user104658]

I am seriously considering getting some health insurance, my son has a congenital heart condition and I'm just not as confident as I'd like to be. He was due a 2yr check last november, I've chased it up but he's still not been sent for! :(

Sad to say we'll be going private as soon as we can afford a good level of cover. I hate the idea of the UK going private like the US and I know that the more people who jump ship, the more likely that is, but when it comes to your family's health what choice is there but to be selfish?

My father-in-law had a heart attack and required a triple bypass 18 months ago... he was under NHS care for the first few weeks after his heart attack before looking into his work contract and realising that he had significant health cover through his work, at which point he immediately switched to private. The difference in the service these days is staggering. The NHS is being deliberately drained of funds and the level of patient care is starting to falter badly.

This is IN NO WAY the fault of the doctors, nurses, or any of the other front-line staff. It is 100% political.

[James]

There is an interview with Jeremy Hunt about the NHS in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/15/jeremy-hunt-on-the-nhs-i-think-this-decade-needs-to-see-the-quality-revolution

[Kizzy]

There is an interview with Jeremy Hunt about the NHS in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/15/jeremy-hunt-on-the-nhs-i-think-this-decade-needs-to-see-the-quality-revolution

I've posted a link to that article, you're not reading my posts are you James? tsk ;)

[James]

I've posted a link to that article, you're not reading my posts are you James? tsk ;)

Oh right, I went back a page and didn't notice it.

[Kizzy]

Sad to say we'll be going private as soon as we can afford a good level of cover. I hate the idea of the UK going private like the US and I know that the more people who jump ship, the more likely that is, but when it comes to your family's health what choice is there but to be selfish?

My father-in-law had a heart attack and required a triple bypass 18 months ago... he was under NHS care for the first few weeks after his heart attack before looking into his work contract and realising that he had significant health cover through his work, at which point he immediately switched to private. The difference in the service these days is staggering. The NHS is being deliberately drained of funds and the level of patient care is starting to falter badly.

This is IN NO WAY the fault of the doctors, nurses, or any of the other front-line staff. It is 100% political.

Agree with all that TS, they kind of have us with complex care needs over a barrel, haven't even looked into costing but what other option is there with the waiting times? I also feel it is 100% funding and not care that is the issue.

[user104658]

It's the same right across the board. We already pay for private Speech Therapy and Occupational Therapy for the youngest. It's not even that the NHS therapists aren't good at their jobs, they're perfectly well qualified, there just aren't anywhere near enough of them for it to be effective. You might get a speech therapist every 7 or 8 weeks or so an Occupational Therapy... even getting an assessment appointment is almost impossible. They are booked solid, forever. They work with her on language stuff at Nursery too, and they're great, but they're not trained speech therapists! So basically, it's go private or get nothing :shrug:.

[Kizzy]

It's the same right across the board. We already pay for private Speech Therapy and Occupational Therapy for the youngest. It's not even that the NHS therapists aren't good at their jobs, they're perfectly well qualified, there just aren't anywhere near enough of them for it to be effective. You might get a speech therapist every 7 or 8 weeks or so an Occupational Therapy... even getting an assessment appointment is almost impossible. They are booked solid, forever. They work with her on language stuff at Nursery too, and they're great, but they're not trained speech therapists! So basically, it's go private or get nothing :shrug:.

Oh don't... gah, the stress I had when my lad was at school? It's a wonder I'm not bald! Be thankful she has a dx, I got the old ADHD tale and offered ritalin every 6 months :/ No foff with them!

[user104658]

Oh don't... gah, the stress I had when my lad was at school? It's a wonder I'm not bald! Be thankful she has a dx, I got the old ADHD tale and offered ritalin every 6 months :/ No foff with them!

We've had a diagnosis since just before she turned three, essentially self-diagnosed her and pushed for the diagnosis directly through a paediatrician (who did so almost straight away). We were told at the time that it's not the "normal" route that they're willing to go down, which is essentially that a referal has to be made either through a Health Visitor or the child's nursery, and then there's a whole trail of appointments and BS. Meaning that most won't even be seen by anyone qualified to make the call until they are at least 5 or 6, by which point there are usually learned / masking behaviours that make it even harder to get an ASD diagnosis. We have a friend with a 6 and a half year old boy who (in my opinion) has very clear ASD, it was even clearer when he was a toddler, but his mum still can't get an official diagnosis to get him more help.

It's shameful really. People trust the system to make the right call but the truth is, unless you do the research yourself and fight like hell, they make it very hard. Even then, you have to do it confidently and eloquently in order to be taken seriously... my wife basically went in there like "Hello Dr, my daughter IS autistic, please sign a letter to this effect" rather than asking the poor guy's opinion :joker:... I wouldn't mess, to be fair :umm2:.

But, that ALSO shouldn't be the case - any parent's concerns should be taken seriously, especially those who are unsure and seeking advice. People are just palmed off for months or years. A workmate of mine (who has a son with Aspergers, now aged 21) didn't get a diagnosis until he was nearly 10, by which point he had already had countless educational issues. By that point it's almost impossible to get the best outcome.

[Kizzy]

I could've done with your missus on my side :) Had to parade in front of countless bods all through school, none had a clue. As he could read they weren't bothered that he couldn't write :/
Anyhoo won't bore you on here but it was hell.

[DemolitionRed]

Sighs...its depressing stuff to read Kizzy and TS but I'm not at all surprised and I don't blame either of you for thinking about/going private. At least you know you and your loved ones are in safe hands.

I just wish more people were aware of what's going on. When I try and explain to people, I'm sure they think I'm spreading some sort of conspiracy.

[the truth]

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.


sounds like your anti tory hate is clouding your objectivity. take each issue on merit.:spin:

[smudgie]

I must live in an exceptionally lucky area.
My problem is the oppsite, every month there is some note or other to be picked up with my script, to see this person or that person, see the nurse, phone the doctor, go for tests or yet another pee in a bottle.
Have a routine check at the hospital and the next thing I know I am told some other dept would like to see me.
I asked for an OT referral by phone to my doctor and heard from them within a week, had home visit more or less straight away with a follow up and equipment installed.
It really saddens me to hear that this is not the norm for all. Is it some sort of postcode lottery?

[the truth]

This is not about whether you're left or right wing. Many Conservative and Labour supporters including Conservative and Labour politicians do not agree with everything their party is doing. What your saying here is, if you support the Tories, you must support what Hunt is doing :conf:

That's a lie.:nono:
I am saying the EXACT OPPOSITE TO YOUR DISINGENUOUS TWISTING OF MY WORDS
people should look at this objectively regardless of party politics, whether you hate socialism or hate the tories
in this instant, the tories are in the right and labour are hopelessly wrong
all I care about is the best result for the patients and the best result is hunts contract

[the truth]

Oh for goodness sake! I said there is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels. Are you suggesting that most junior doctors could make all the difference to a patient living or dying? I beg to differ, especially with those fresh out of med school and are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

yet another dishonest post, shame on you
junior doctors go all the way up to those with 5 to 15 years experience
of course they save lives? what the heck do you think they are for?

[the truth]

I think yours is too to be fair, truth. It's probably true that neglect happens (and moreso at the weekends) due to understaffing, but the only way to address that is for there to be a massive increase in funding to ensure that hospitals ARE adequately staffed at all times. The Tories are not going to provide that funding. They're going to find more and more excuses to cut it, whilst placing the blame elsewhere.

Properly staffing hospitals requres MORE STAFF and more money to pay them. Not simply shoehorning the current staff into longer hours for the same (or less) pay.

labour throw billions and it got worse, its not money its better organization and individual responsibility. I suppose you recall the 1000s who starved or died of thirst in nhs wards under new labours watch, or the 25000 a year who died of undiagnosed blood clots per year under labours watch, or the mass growth in wages for the bosses and the mass growth of administraters and managers under labours watch, or the billions worth of equipment never used under labours watch, that's why European hospitals were up to 50 times less likely to get mrsa under new labour

labour never solve it because theyre too scared to upset the unions and risk losing votes

[the truth]

It's the same right across the board. We already pay for private Speech Therapy and Occupational Therapy for the youngest. It's not even that the NHS therapists aren't good at their jobs, they're perfectly well qualified, there just aren't anywhere near enough of them for it to be effective. You might get a speech therapist every 7 or 8 weeks or so an Occupational Therapy... even getting an assessment appointment is almost impossible. They are booked solid, forever. They work with her on language stuff at Nursery too, and they're great, but they're not trained speech therapists! So basically, it's go private or get nothing :shrug:.

a lot of occupational therapists are frankly useless.

[kirklancaster]

sounds like your anti tory hate is clouding your objectivity. take each issue on merit.:spin:

:laugh: LMFAO. MY "anti-Tory hate???????????? That's the first time I've ever been accused of HATING the TORIES - on here or in the real world. I am usually accused of hating on the Left-Wing, which I do not anyway, but have you read any of my posts?

:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

That's a lie.:nono:
I am saying the EXACT OPPOSITE TO YOUR DISINGENUOUS TWISTING OF MY WORDS
people should look at this objectively regardless of party politics, whether you hate socialism or hate the tories
in this instant, the tories are in the right and labour are hopelessly wrong
all I care about is the best result for the patients and the best result is hunts contract

Before you call me a liar and get your panties in a wad, I'll have you know that I was an out and out LD supporter before the coalition. I supported the one party that was going to stop the sell off of the NHS. Unfortunately Clegg jumped in between the sheets with David Cameron during the coalition and consequently lost a lot of votes, including mine.

You can't have a debate by trying to bully your way through it. Suggesting that Labour did all this is laughable because we all know about the appalling way Labour treated the NHS but they were on the same mission Cameron's on now. Labour failed its British public just as the Conservatives presently fail the British public.

Edited to add: you claim you only care about the patients and yet you've only done Tory right research and you believe it all.

[Beso]

The man deserves a pat on the back considering the unions have been dithering over this for 4 years now. ****ing get on with it you moaning doctor *****.

[the truth]

Before you call me a liar and get your panties in a wad, I'll have you know that I was an out and out LD supporter before the coalition. I supported the one party that was going to stop the sell off of the NHS. Unfortunately Clegg jumped in between the sheets with David Cameron during the coalition and consequently lost a lot of votes, including mine.

You can't have a debate by trying to bully your way through it. Suggesting that Labour did all this is laughable because we all know about the appalling way Labour treated the NHS but they were on the same mission Cameron's on now. Labour failed its British public just as the Conservatives presently fail the British public.

Edited to add: you claim you only care about the patients and yet you've only done Tory right research and you believe it all.

You lied in your previous posts.

Oh here comes the bully word for people who disagree and out you for lying.
zzzzzzzz

Again you lie, Ive not done ONLY tory right research

You need to refocus and go visit some sick people on hospital wards on the weekends and really study them closely to see how neglected a lot of them are. Youd be lucky to even get scanned in many hospitals on the weekend

[the truth]

The man deserves a pat on the back considering the unions have been dithering over this for 4 years now. ****ing get on with it you moaning doctor *****.

the real problems is the majority of junior doctors don't want to work weekends, the minority don't mind and they were getting double time for it. it has to be made a compulsory part of every doctors timetable.

[user104658]

the real problems is the majority of junior doctors don't want to work weekends, the minority don't mind and they were getting double time for it. it has to be made a compulsory part of every doctors timetable.

You realise there's A LOT more to these contract changes than mandatory weekend work, right?

[DemolitionRed]

You lied in your previous posts.

Oh here comes the bully word for people who disagree and out you for lying.
zzzzzzzz

Again you lie, Ive not done ONLY tory right research

You need to refocus and go visit some sick people on hospital wards on the weekends and really study them closely to see how neglected a lot of them are. Youd be lucky to even get scanned in many hospitals on the weekend

go and have a word with yourself. If your not lucky enough to get scanned at the weekend its hardly the doctors fault.

[Kizzy]

Are radiologists and consultants subject to this re-structuring of contracts, is mortality not affected by them?

[smudgie]

Are radiologists and consultants subject to this re-structuring of contracts, is mortality not affected by them?

I am thinking the next on the list is consultants..good luck with that one.
If the hospitals and surgeries are to be open 24/7 then it makes sense that ALL of it needs to be open and in full working order.

[the truth]

go and have a word with yourself. If your not lucky enough to get scanned at the weekend its hardly the doctors fault.

this is yet another of your answers that makes no sense
1000s more die because they get a substandard skeleton staff service at weekends, FACT. YOU don't seem to care about that, I do.
It matters not whose fault it is to the patient, the end result is all that matters to them.
the fact is its a collective failure to have a proper weekend service. not the tories have had the bottle to address it thankfully. labour need to stop sucking up to the unions now and stop arguing against it and fight for how best to now achieve it. staggered rota systems for everyone are inevitable.
they can be smart now by admitting its essential but at the same time fight to keep it public

[user104658]

I'm going to ask again Truth since you seem to be flat out ignoring the question:

You are aware that there's much more to the dispute than weekend working, RIGHT?

[DemolitionRed]

this is yet another of your answers that makes no sense
1000s more die because they get a substandard skeleton staff service at weekends, FACT. YOU don't seem to care about that, I do.
It matters not whose fault it is to the patient, the end result is all that matters to them.
the fact is its a collective failure to have a proper weekend service. not the tories have had the bottle to address it thankfully. labour need to stop sucking up to the unions now and stop arguing against it and fight for how best to now achieve it. staggered rota systems for everyone are inevitable.
they can be smart now by admitting its essential but at the same time fight to keep it public

You clearly haven't read my earlier posts on here because if you had, you would of read what I wrote about skeleton consultants, skeleton diagnostics and skeleton admin staff. Put all the junior doctors on weekends but without the others their hands are tied and people will still die from lack of staff at the weekend.

If the government had put a staggered rota system in for everyone then the problem would of been solved but they haven't have they?

[user104658]

You clearly haven't read my earlier posts on here because if you had, you would of read what I wrote about skeleton consultants, skeleton diagnostics and skeleton admin staff. Put all the junior doctors on weekends but without the others their hands are tied and people will still die from lack of staff at the weekend.

If the government had put a staggered rota system in for everyone then the problem would of been solved but they haven't have they?
Well exactly, even the things Truth is talking about, such as MRSA and neglect of patients everyday needs (which does happen, that much is true) would be solved by having higher staffing levels for cleaning and things like general health care. Most of the neglect is really simple things - like people being left thirsty or uncomfortable or just unnoticed. You don't need doctors or even nurses working longer hours to tackle these issues... You need a higher level of basic staff presence, period.

[the truth]

You clearly haven't read my earlier posts on here because if you had, you would of read what I wrote about skeleton consultants, skeleton diagnostics and skeleton admin staff. Put all the junior doctors on weekends but without the others their hands are tied and people will still die from lack of staff at the weekend.

If the government had put a staggered rota system in for everyone then the problem would of been solved but they haven't have they?

totally agree with your last few sentences......quite how that hasn't happened simultaneously is a total mystery. you have to stagger it all of course. some say that will happen next. some have suggested this will follow, but its not been made that clear and hunt has undoubtedly made a pigs ear out of it all. even though I do agree with the tories premise to make it 24/7 staggered system on continental work patterns

[Kizzy]

Well well well.... :)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-forced-humiliating-admission-7781987#rlabs=7%20rt$category%20p$4

[Red Moon]

Well well well.... :)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-forced-humiliating-admission-7781987#rlabs=7%20rt$category%20p$4

It seems he might not have the legal right to force the contracts on the staff.

Personally I think it is the start of some kind of government U-turn on the whole Doctors contract mess the man himself help create.

[Kizzy]

Isn't it wonderful? :flutter: Step down Hunt!

[Red Moon]

Isn't it wonderful? :flutter: Step down Hunt!

We can only hope.

[joeysteele]

It seems he might not have the legal right to force the contracts on the staff.

Personally I think it is the start of some kind of government U-turn on the whole Doctors contract mess the man himself help create.

Spot on and anything that now has made a u turn on this possible is great news.

As you rightly point out however, this really is/was a mess of his ow making.

[the truth]

Its a tragedy for all sides and for patients especially. Both sides are a disgrace.
clearly the weekend service is appalling. clearly the doctors deal labour did in 2004 is the main part of the problem in allowing 90% of gp's to opt out of all out of hours work, thus putting too much pressure on hospitals. clearly the service provided by some hospitals is sub standard, clearly the enormous mass of middle management, administrators and incompetent wasteful often corrupt trusts has cost the nhs billions...the eu rules limiting and making it so difficult to recuit enough medical staff outside the eu has killed us too....that's why we recruit so many 1000s of staff and pay them private sector wages
hunt has been charmless and boorish throughout. the bma are a disgrace. the all day strikes are immoral in every possible way
the cover ups under labour were appalling with the record mrsa, the 1000s of patients starved, the bullying of staff who wanted to complain, the weakening of the ombudsman, that type of kronyism is akin to communism and is every bit as dangerous as the rush to sell off the nhs

both parties are a disgrace

the nhs has to become less of a political football and less burocratic and wasteful

most life saving machines are barely used a few hours a week

[arista]

Tomorrow is the Danger Day Tuesday

A&E included in the Strike.

Hunt MP is not backing down at all.
he says the BMA are Very Political,
if true thats wrong.

I wonder how many Deaths
will go on TV News?
That will not help these Hard Working Jnr Doctors

[joeysteele]

Consultants will be covering care during the strike, are there really people who think Consultants will be unable to do that.

Since so many are worried about junior Doctors not being there for their care then maybe they should appreciate them far more and direct the blame to where it really lies, this incompetent and pathetic health secretary ad this govt.

If Hunt gets to impose this contract then there will be a great deal more fewer junior Doctors in the NHS as most will likely clear off anyway and leave for other Countries or other professions.

[the truth]

Consultants will be covering care during the strike, are there really people who think Consultants will be unable to do that.

Since so many are worried about junior Doctors not being there for their care then maybe they should appreciate them far more and direct the blame to where it really lies, this incompetent and pathetic health secretary ad this govt.

If Hunt gets to impose this contract then there will be a great deal more fewer junior Doctors in the NHS as most will likely clear off anyway and leave for other Countries or other professions.

That is plain wrong and way too simplistic. the welsh nhs under labour is years behind England under the tories and has less funding

I am against this strike. Innocent people will suffer and possibly die. Both sides should be ashamed its come to this. This macho posturing will not move anything forward either. A huge part of the problem undiscussed is the 2004 contract that allos 90% of gp's to not work out of hours at all, evenings or weekends. Thus putting so much more pressure on hospital doctors.




Another issue in wales we seem very complacent and a little smug over this imo....the reality is, in wales our waiting times are behind England on almost all areas, in some cases a long way behind...Behind in diagnosis and in treatment and operations... from heart surgery, to cancer overall, head injuries, pneumonia, hernias. We are marginally quicker dealing with kidney transplants and we have free prescriptions, everything else we are behind. Hip operations average 3 times as long waiting as in England, the wait can be between 9 months and up to 2 years in some cases, Our ambulance waiting times are also behind.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35364644




You can also choose a hospital in England online which is a brilliant way to make the system more flexible to the needs of the patients....why on earth don't we have that in wales? why on earth aren't we even talking about it? This system looks brilliant




http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/902.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=162







We have a very rigid out of date booking system. this is the same for ambulances. I recall one ambulance driver collected me to go to hospital one day. I told him Id rung to cancel. he came back the next week I told him again id cancelled I don't need any ambulance any more. he said it was easier for the ambulance driver to turn up at the addresses rather than try and cancel it as the cancellation process was so complex?

INSANE




I fear the people running nhs wales are complacent , my little dealings with the trust left me with zero confidence in those people in charge

[Kizzy]

uK7DRJx9nbU

[Vicky.]

I expected my op to be cancelled on tuesday because of this strike but it wasn't..I actually got seen without a delay for the first time in months :laugh:

[arista]

I expected my op to be cancelled on tuesday because of this strike but it wasn't..I actually got seen without a delay for the first time in months :laugh:



Some Good News

Well Done Vicky

[Livia]

While I support the junior doctors' refusal to accept the new contract, I don't agree with strike action ever.

On the bright side, Jeremy Hunt has the ideal name if Waterhog wants to write a poem about him.

[Mystic Mock]

uK7DRJx9nbU

Oh I love this video of Jeremy ****.