Comparing Trump to Hitler Is Worst Kind of Hate Speech

[Crimson Dynamo]

"When we apply a Nazi comparison to someone or something that does not fit that comparison, then Nazism and the Holocaust lose their power to shock us. And they must never lose that power. If they do, which is quickly happening right now, when something diabolical does come along again in this world, we have no way to identify it, let alone stop it, because we've cried Nazi wolf so often that the comparison has lost its power to persuade."

"he or she that resorts to a Nazi Germany or Hitler comparison loses the argument. "


"You see, for me, a Nazi comparison is a kind of inverted hate speech unwittingly directed at all those who died in the Holocaust. So, if you find Mr. Trump's comments a form of hate speech, it behooves you to not ape their very nature with a grotesquely irresponsible rejoinder. Moreover, when you make preposterous comparisons, you actually draw those on the fence closer to the very person you hope to disempower."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_9334668.html
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-02-27-1456595899-9124929-TrumpHitler-thumb.jpg


Excellent article and hopefully a read of it will put an end to the frankly silly and disrespectful comparisons?


Thoughts?

[arista]

Yes LT
I was shocked to see a Mod use this Wrong Term.

Strange Times on TIBB

[Ammi]

..I guess my thoughts are that this should be discussed in the Trump thread..(if there is any necessity for it to be discussed even at all/individual associations in regards to Donald Trump..)...sometimes I think that there is maybe a need to make a separate thread for something, which is touched on during a debate if it is side-tracking too much or merits it's own thread... but not in this vein which seems a sure way of becoming personal and silly/unnecessary to debates which an get personal enough already...would I personally compare Trump..?..no, just because there isn't any need imo, Trump's ideals are worrying enough in their own right/his egotism and everything he stands for are not things that I think represent America's ethos in any way...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes LT
I was shocked to see a Mod use this Wrong Term.

Strange Times on TIBB

I think some more knowledge of military history is needed for some

[Jamie89]

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest :laugh:
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

[joeysteele]

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest :laugh:
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

Absolutely,I personally would avoid comparing someone to Hitler and the Nazis but at times some real sensationalism can enter into debate as comparing one with another.
Which can work in positive and negative ways, one it gets a debate going but also can help highlight the wrongs of someone trying to be too unacceptably extreme and also really discriminating as to others, especially when such a person is trying to seek office of a high order.
This is how some of the World saw Adolf Hitler before he came to power.

I hate much of the tone of Trump,I just really hope the American people wake up to him fast and if he does unfortunately get the nomination of the Republican party that he gets soundly and massively trounced in the actual Presidential election.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So the suggestion is that if Person A makes a generic comparison between Hitler and someone else (regardless of what aspects of the two people are being compared), then Person B will no longer be shocked by Nazism or the Holocaust? I disagree. If a comparison can be made then why not make it? It's not disrespectful to anyone other than the person who is being compared to Hitler. And it depends what the comparison is. If someone was to say 'Trump did x and that was as bad as the Holocaust', then obviously that would be incredibly disrespectful, but if it's a comparison of a particular policy/personality trait (I don't know exactly what the comparison is that has led to this thread) and the comparison exists legitimately, or there is an argument to be had for it, then I think it's fine. Calling it 'Hate Speech' is a bit much to be honest :laugh:
I remember when I was at school we had a teacher that everyone called 'Little Hitler'. It wasn't a comment on Nazism, it was just a silly meaningless insult aimed at the teacher for being a ****.

The reason there is Godwins Law et is that its lazy and 99.9% inaccurate

all you are doing is thinking of the worst extreme to try and prove a point (usually that you dont like something)

[Crimson Dynamo]

In December 2015, Godwin cited several articles on Republican presidential candidate Donald J. Trump for their Nazi and Fascist comparisons.


Even Godwin himself is calling out those who make the Trump comparison


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Jamie89]

In December 2015, Godwin cited several articles on Republican presidential candidate Donald J. Trump for their Nazi and Fascist comparisons.


Even Godwin himself is calling out those who make the Trump comparison


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Interesting link, I think this part is particularly relevant:

"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

If somebody feels that making a comparison is relevant during a discussion, then they have the right to make that comparison. Trying to censor them because you disagree with it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

[user104658]

I don't know. I'm the first to agree with Godwin's Law when it comes to people pulling the Nazi card, and if anyone starts saying that Trump is "just like" Hitler or is going to successfully form a new Nazi regime, then yes, Godwin's all the way.

However...

There are some clear, obvious and demonstrable comparisons that can be made between Trump's popularity and the rise of Hitler. Anyone who bleats "blrrrr Godwin's law lolol" whilst refusing to acknowledge or address those in any way, is just as bad as someone Barking "Nazi!".

There are similar economic and political trends at work that are being leveraged in similar ways, using similar rhetoric, for a similar surge in political popularity that would not have been possible under other circumstances. That's just a fact.

There are comparisons to be drawn. Comparing does not necessarily mean equating. Shooting down those comparisons in a kneejerk fashion, "OMG :omgno: you said Hitler lololllll Godwin lol get out" is disingenuous.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting link, I think this part is particularly relevant:

"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."

If somebody feels that making a comparison is relevant during a discussion, then they have the right to make that comparison. Trying to censor them because you disagree with it isn't helpful to the discussion at all.

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

[Crimson Dynamo]

If You are going to start threads with a copy and paste of part of a news article (even using the headline as the thread title) i believe it is at the very least courteous to post the original source but also infringes on copyright if you do not.
How rude.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-marshall-crotty/comparing-trump-to-hitler_b_9334668.html

sorry that is my bad, I did post the link but made an error by putting it in the picture box :facepalm:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't know. I'm the first to agree with Godwin's Law when it comes to people pulling the Nazi card, and if anyone starts saying that Trump is "just like" Hitler or is going to successfully form a new Nazi regime, then yes, Godwin's all the way.

However...

There are some clear, obvious and demonstrable comparisons that can be made between Trump's popularity and the rise of Hitler. Anyone who bleats "blrrrr Godwin's law lolol" whilst refusing to acknowledge or address those in any way, is just as bad as someone Barking "Nazi!".

There are similar economic and political trends at work that are being leveraged in similar ways, using similar rhetoric, for a similar surge in political popularity that would not have been possible under other circumstances. That's just a fact.

There are comparisons to be drawn. Comparing does not necessarily mean equating. Shooting down those comparisons in a kneejerk fashion, "OMG :omgno: you said Hitler lololllll Godwin lol get out" is disingenuous.

i seem to remember that Farage for this and no doubt in French forums Le Pen gets this all the time, in fact I doubt that there has been any right wing popular politician who has not been compared to Hitler, ever :shrug:

[Jamie89]

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps
That point would only be valid if there was no merit to the comparisons. If people believe there are valid reasons behind making a comparison then they have the right to make that point. If on the other hand I decide to start comparing Trump to Pingu then that would lower the level of the thread because I can't back up why it would be relevant.
The whole point in this thread is to censor the Hitler comparisons, not because there aren't reasons behind them, but because you don't agree with the validity of the reasons, which is a simple difference of opinion, so saying that you're not trying to censor people is a contradiction.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That point would only be valid if there was no merit to the comparisons. If people believe there are valid reasons behind making a comparison then they have the right to make that point. If on the other hand I decide to start comparing Trump to Pingu then that would lower the level of the thread because I can't back up why it would be relevant.
The whole point in this thread is to censor the Hitler comparisons, not because there aren't reasons behind them, but because you don't agree with the validity of the reasons, which is a simple difference of opinion, so saying that you're not trying to censor people is a contradiction.

I cant censor anyone but i can perhaps make them re-evaluate the comparison as it is rather ridiculous

naturally I had hoped someone may have said "yes perhaps i have been a bit hasty"


:fc:

[user104658]

i seem to remember that Farage for this and no doubt in French forums Le Pen gets this all the time, in fact I doubt that there has been any right wing popular politician who has not been compared to Hitler, ever :shrug:
Well surely they can be. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "comparison" to be honest, like I said, with people believing that "compare" and "equate" mean the same when they don't. "There's no comparison!!1!!1"... Well... Of course there is. I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike. Or anything else. There may be no similarity at all... That would be a part of the comparison?

So yes, compare any right wing politician to a facist dictator and you will inevitably find similarities to highlight. That's inevitable. Just as it's inevitable that you will be able to find similarities between left wing politicians and hard socialism / communism / Marxism. The Tories for example absolutely love to do just that?

So, it is in fact perfectly valid to compare Trump with Hitler. There's no inherent problem with it, if it's just part of the conversation and explained. There ARE similarities in the reasons that they rose to popularity, there ARE similarities in their rhetoric. Should it be off limits to say so just because of the wider implications? In my opinion, no, but I guess it depends on your audience and your intent. Pointing these things out is not the same as saying "Trump = Hitler! Trump is a Nazi!"

IMO Godwin's law comes into play, then, when "Nazi" or "Hitler" is used as the descriptor itself without further examination or elaboration. When the entire argument is "X is a Nazi", "Y is Nazi propaganda" etc.

There's no inherent problem with comparison.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well surely they can be. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "comparison" to be honest, like I said, with people believing that "compare" and "equate" mean the same when they don't. "There's no comparison!!1!!1"... Well... Of course there is. I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike. Or anything else. There may be no similarity at all... That would be a part of the comparison?

So yes, compare any right wing politician to a facist dictator and you will inevitably find similarities to highlight. That's inevitable. Just as it's inevitable that you will be able to find similarities between left wing politicians and hard socialism / communism / Marxism. The Tories for example absolutely love to do just that?

So, it is in fact perfectly valid to compare Trump with Hitler. There's no inherent problem with it, if it's just part of the conversation and explained. There ARE similarities in the reasons that they rose to popularity, there ARE similarities in their rhetoric. Should it be off limits to say so just because of the wider implications? In my opinion, no, but I guess it depends on your audience and your intent. Pointing these things out is not the same as saying "Trump = Hitler! Trump is a Nazi!"

IMO Godwin's law comes into play, then, when "Nazi" or "Hitler" is used as the descriptor itself without further examination or elaboration. When the entire argument is "X is a Nazi", "Y is Nazi propaganda" etc.

There's no inherent problem with comparison.

Godwin invented his law to make people try and think a little deeper and avoid the obvious just because you dont like something

Hopefully today maybe people have

[user104658]

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps
I'm going to be honest LT... I think using Godwin's law as censorship is exactly what you're attempting to do.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm going to be honest LT... I think using Godwin's law as censorship is exactly what you're attempting to do.

Just making people aware is not censorship

if I were a mod and i shut the Trump thread then yes


:smug:

[user104658]

Godwin invented his law to make people try and think a little deeper and avoid the obvious just because you dont like something

Hopefully today maybe people have
He sure did. He didn't invent the law to block anyone from ever drawing any parallels with Hitler or the Nazis in any circumstance. That would be ridiculous.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He sure did. He didn't invent the law to block anyone from ever drawing any parallels with Hitler or the Nazis in any circumstance. That would be ridiculous.

indeed, it was to make them think deeper

[user104658]

Just making people aware is not censorship

if I were a mod and i shut the Trump thread then yes


:smug:
It's light censorship LT, by Tring to make people feel foolish or uneducated by spamming an arbitrary argument. Lazy.

[user104658]

indeed, it was to make them think deeper
One can think deeply about the meteoric rise of Donald Trump in politics and still come out of it with unsettling Hitler tease. Trust me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's light censorship LT, by Tring to make people feel foolish or uneducated by spamming an arbitrary argument. Lazy.

Jesus TS, its the lazy AH comparisons that spawned it ffs

[Crimson Dynamo]

One can think deeply about the meteoric rise of Donald Trump in politics and still come out of it with unsettling Hitler tease. Trust me.

Yes and you can probably do the same with the rise of Adele too

[user104658]

Yes and you can probably do the same with the rise of Adele too
Nonsense LT. Yawn.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Nonsense LT. Yawn.

" I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike."



Dont yawn TS, pay attention

especially to your own posts.....



:hee:

[arista]

"Trump's ideals are worrying enough in their own right/his egotism"


Ammi
not for those backing President Trump

[billy123]

Yes and you can probably do the same with the rise of Adele tooAdele is sexy facism isnt.


Sexy

http://popcrush.com/files/2013/04/Adele.jpg


Not Sexy

https://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sovietwomenkilled.jpg

[user104658]

Jesus TS, its the lazy AH comparisons that spawned it ffs
Lazy Hitler comparisons are grounds for talking about Godwin. Yes. That does not mean that ANY AND ALL Hitler comparisons are null and void. As I said, if they are elaborated upon then they are perfectly valid.

They have the same set up (a proud, powerful country feeling recently downtrodden). They have gained adoration on the same principles (patriotism, economic promises and xenophobia).

The very foundations of their political platforms have direct similarities? That's in no way saying that the end game or outcome will be or ever was likely to be the same. I just can't figure out why it's supposed to be off limits to draw these obvious comparisons, or why bleating "Godwin!!" is any more valid than bleating "Hitler!!".

I guess maybe it's because it might offend someone, or upset the graves of some respected ancestors, or a Jew or something.

For those of us who don't care about any of that ****, the arbitrary implied censorship can be a bit frustrating.

[user104658]

" I could write a lengthy post comparing Hitler to a banana sundae, if the mood were to strike."



Dont yawn TS, pay attention

especially to your own posts.....



:hee:
... I could compare Adele to Hitler. I could not examine the rise of Adele and come away with Hitler tease. And I'm the one not reading? *tut*

I'm genuinely concerned that you've been on a several week long bender LT, you're all over the place atm :umm2:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Adele is sexy facism isnt.


Sexy

http://popcrush.com/files/2013/04/Adele.jpg


Not Sexy

https://robertlindsay.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sovietwomenkilled.jpg

good bob I am glad you can now see that silly comparisons are wrong and unhelpful. Thankyou :thumbs:

[Crimson Dynamo]

... I could compare Adele to Hitler. I could not examine the rise of Adele and come away with Hitler tease. And I'm the one not reading? *tut*

I'm genuinely concerned that you've been on a several week long bender LT, you're all over the place atm :umm2:.

personal attacks rather tell their own tale TS now dont they...

[user104658]

personal attacks rather tell their own tale TS now dont they...
It's not a personal attack LT I'm genuinely confused.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not a personal attack LT I'm genuinely confused.

maybe you are ill?

:worry:

[user104658]

maybe you are ill?

:worry:
I actually am a ****ing mess, I have a serious chest infection, sinusitis and conjunctivitis. I look like the walking dead. I've also barely eaten for like 3 days, because I can't taste anything and what's the point in eating if you can't taste?? Nourishment? Pff.

BUT that doesn't mean that I can't see when something is amiss, through my red, crusty eye holes...

[Z]

I can see the comparisons of rousing popular support from a disgruntled population but that's about where it ends - Donald Trump's campaign is built upon his celebrity and outspoken take no prisoners attitude, the type of man who will not back down from an idea once he's expressed it. He has a like it or lump it, marmite type of public persona - some people love his unfiltered attitude, others find him deplorable. He was a bit of a novelty before he entered the Presidential nomination race and now people are retrospectively trying to add all these horrible attributes to him that they wouldn't have before, they're just trying to discredit him. I don't think he will be elected the next President of the United States but that's neither here nor there.

Adolf Hitler began his political career by blaming Jews for the ills of society, yes, but he then worked his way up to leading the country through actual policies that people could vote for, his actual leadership skills are quietly applauded by anybody who can look past the obvious glaring atrocities his leadership were responsible for and while he led his nation into a war it couldn't win and war crimes that will always have an infamous legacy in German politics, the combination of factors that led him to that point would be significantly harder to repeat today in a world filled with unions and members only organisations that constrain the Western world from repeating the horrors of the past. That's not to say that horrific human rights situations can't or don't happen (they have continued to happen on a regular basis since World War II, after all) but a rampant xenophobe won't be able to commit Hitler-esque atrocities. Do people really think Donald Trump is going to open up gulags and start purging anyone brown from American soil, or do they just see an idiot and cry extremist? It's a bit of a disservice to Adolf Hitler to compare Donald Trump to him; Hitler knew exactly what he was doing and was a very measured, considered man. Donald Trump is none of those things.






I can't believe I just defended Adolf Hitler.

[Shaun]

Yeah I'd identify Trump as more of a cult leader than a fascist... his personality/wealth/ubiquitous media presence is just snowballing votes from people that are happy to fix the blame of everything that's wrong with America right now on external factors. Without thinking about it too much. Because y'know, Murrica.

[billy123]

Is this in chat and games yet ?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Is this in chat and games yet ?
Making you feel a little vulnerable bob?

[arista]

Yeah I'd identify Trump as more of a cult leader than a fascist... his personality/wealth/ubiquitous media presence is just snowballing votes from people that are happy to fix the blame of everything that's wrong with America right now on external factors. Without thinking about it too much. Because y'know, Murrica.


Good Points Shaun

[the truth]

the closest weve seen to hitler in recent years is labour leader tony blair...killed a million innocent people on a pack of lies, had a pr master of propaganda running his cabinet, didn't even arm his own troops properly, ignored the democratic claims of millions to avoid war. there were loads of sub plots too, people who mysteriously died like robin cook, minutes of meetings and documents missing or covered up...he went on to even gain enormous finance recompense for his illegal war. vile sub human creature who has in effect left a legacy of mass world wide terrorism

[Kizzy]

I think money has gone to his head as has power, those two things could make for a very dangerous combination. The wrong people whispering in his ear and yes I see catastrophe.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i remember when absolutely no one thought crap actor Ronald Reagan could be president


plus ca change

[DemolitionRed]

I read an article in the Huffington Post with the exact same headline. I just located it again http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-marshall-crotty/comparing-trump-to-hitler_b_9334668.html

The comments were interesting. I especially agree with Joe Phillips who said of the author:

"By your logic we can never make comparisons. The demagoguery being used by Trump needs to be called out for what it is and is far more dangerous than just some crude rhetoric. Violent destructive movements start somewhere, and it starts by appealing the worst of who we are. Where it can snowball no one knows for sure. It's far better to take a serious and cautious look at what people are saying and doing. Germans did not take Hitler serious until it was too late, those who saw the danger larger took the silent route. It's not hate speech raising concerns over eerie parallels."

[Crimson Dynamo]

I read an article in the Huffington Post with the exact same headline. I just located it again http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-marshall-crotty/comparing-trump-to-hitler_b_9334668.html

The comments were interesting. I especially agree with Joe Phillips who said of the author:

"By your logic we can never make comparisons. The demagoguery being used by Trump needs to be called out for what it is and is far more dangerous than just some crude rhetoric. Violent destructive movements start somewhere, and it starts by appealing the worst of who we are. Where it can snowball no one knows for sure. It's far better to take a serious and cautious look at what people are saying and doing. Germans did not take Hitler serious until it was too late, those who saw the danger larger took the silent route. It's not hate speech raising concerns over eerie parallels."

"Germans did not take Hitler serious until it was too late, those who saw the danger larger took the silent route"

is he a mind reader or can he back that up with evidence?:laugh:

[user104658]

"Germans did not take Hitler serious until it was too late, those who saw the danger larger took the silent route"

is he a mind reader or can he back that up with evidence?[emoji23]
... Is this a serious comment? You believe that the German people knew what Hitler's end game was when he was on the rise? Oh yeah. They were just like "yay woohoo let's do it".

[the truth]

we didn't stop tony blair, how did you expect the germans to stop hitler

[kirklancaster]

ADELE HITLER:

""GUTEN ABEND.... Unt here iz my latest song, a cover of zat Burt Bacharach classic about German Paratroopers invading a Somerset town - "Rhinetroops Are Falling On Minehead"


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSm8ERZC49NqnU7sehwgnYQ_hZm-U86lg97z-P2aFeKLcZMUh1ZCQ

I love this thread. :laugh:

[arista]

i remember when absolutely no one thought crap actor Ronald Reagan could be president


plus ca change



Yes America Needs a Change

[Crimson Dynamo]

... Is this a serious comment? You believe that the German people knew what Hitler's end game was when he was on the rise? Oh yeah. They were just like "yay woohoo let's do it".

Mein Kampf was translated into 24 languages by the mid 30s, the country was awash with anti Semitic posters and media before the war - they took him seriously and liked him and what he had to say. The war gave them the excuse to excuse killings.

[lostalex]

It's like comparing me to Martin Luther King just because I've spoken out against racism a few times.

[lostalex]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

probably very true

:clap1:

[DemolitionRed]

You can only love Reagan if you're a rich conservative American.

That man still has a lot to answer for, especially regarding the funding and training the Islamist mujahidin Freedom Fighters; the same freedom fighters that then went on to fund the 9/11 attack.
To most Americans, Reagan is more famous for the Iran Contra Scandal -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_administration_scandals than for anything good he might of done.

[Ammi]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

..as a non-American, I don't feel uncomfortable at all Alex in saying that Obama for me has seemed to be a fairly bland President, he just doesn't seem to have much substance of character at all...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's like comparing me to Martin Luther King just because I've spoken out against racism a few times.

often when you post my mind is cast back to MLK

other times i see only Louie De Palma from the hit show Taxi

:hee:

[DemolitionRed]

@ Originally Posted by lostalex View Post
Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

That's just you assuming everyone's simple.

[Cherie]

@ Originally Posted by lostalex View Post
Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

That's just you assuming everyone's simple.

:clap2:

[user104658]

Mein Kampf was translated into 24 languages by the mid 30s, the country was awash with anti Semitic posters and media before the war - they took him seriously and liked him and what he had to say. The war gave them the excuse to excuse killings.

There was a creeping rot in Germany based largely around economic emasculation, kicks-to-the-balls of "National Pride", and a large amount of scape-goating. Developed over several years to the point that the poisoned population would accept the rhetoric of a dangerously xenophobic individual.

It didn't happen over-night, in the early days leading up to it "normal" Germans would have laughed and scoffed at the idea if you'd told them what would have happened by the end of the 40's. They'd have thought it ridiculous.

The entire "Never Again" mantra is based on the idea of not being complacent and not allowing the "little things" to go unchecked for long enough to snowball into potentially serious outcomes.

This is where there are comparisons. Do I think Trump is likely to become a genocidal mass murderer? No. Well, no more than any other world leader. However the mindset that he represents, the rumblings that surround his brand of politics, should not be ignored. These things do not end well. We know this.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There was a creeping rot in Germany based largely around economic emasculation, kicks-to-the-balls of "National Pride", and a large amount of scape-goating. Developed over several years to the point that the poisoned population would accept the rhetoric of a dangerously xenophobic individual.

It didn't happen over-night, in the early days leading up to it "normal" Germans would have laughed and scoffed at the idea if you'd told them what would have happened by the end of the 40's. They'd have thought it ridiculous.

The entire "Never Again" mantra is based on the idea of not being complacent and not allowing the "little things" to go unchecked for long enough to snowball into potentially serious outcomes.

This is where there are comparisons. Do I think Trump is likely to become a genocidal mass murderer? No. Well, no more than any other world leader. However the mindset that he represents, the rumblings that surround his brand of politics, should not be ignored. These things do not end well. We know this.

and you think america would be any better under clinton?

look at what her husband did

:umm2:

[bots]

The entire "Never Again" mantra is based on the idea of not being complacent and not allowing the "little things" to go unchecked for long enough to snowball into potentially serious outcomes.

This is where there are comparisons. Do I think Trump is likely to become a genocidal mass murderer? No. Well, no more than any other world leader. However the mindset that he represents, the rumblings that surround his brand of politics, should not be ignored. These things do not end well. We know this.

People are allowed free speech though, and then the people have the right to vote on it. If sufficient people agree with Trumps policies, then he should and will be president. If we move to stop even mumblings, then we may as well just pack up and go home to our bunkers, because what is the point to life, no progress will ever be made.

[user104658]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

That's not really true Alex. I'm not anti-American at all, in fact at it's core values I very much like and admire America and the history of the United States. Much more than Europe, in many ways. I have issues with some aspects of American foreign and social policy but that's true of any country, nowhere is perfect. I would happily live in the US, I'm definitely not looking for "excuses to criticize" America, in fact I think the US as a concept always had, and probably does still have, great potential to legitimately be exemplary. You know. If it manages to keep people like Trump from getting their claws in...

[user104658]

People are allowed free speech though, and then the people have the right to vote on it. If sufficient people agree with Trumps policies, then he should and will be president. If we move to stop even mumblings, then we may as well just pack up and go home to our bunkers, because what is the point to life, no progress will ever be made.

I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed free speech. My point (throughout this thread) has been that using a Hitler allegory is, and should be, perfectly acceptable where people have valid concerns. i.e. people shouldn't feel like they're "not allowed to do that because Godwin", or, utterly ridiculously, because it's "the worst kind of hate speech". I mean really. Not just hate speech, but the worst kind? ...OK.

[user104658]

and you think america would be any better under clinton?

look at what her husband did

:umm2:

I'm not particularly a Hilldawg fan either, but this thread is not about Hillary Clinton. As ever, I don't consider "Hmph well the other lot are just as bad!" to be any sort of an endorsement.

[Alf]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.
I think you're probably on to something there.

[bots]

I'm not particularly a Hilldawg fan either, but this thread is not about Hillary Clinton. As ever, I don't consider "Hmph well the other lot are just as bad!" to be any sort of an endorsement.

It all boils down to a choice between 2 candidates in the end though, so the hmph the other lot are just as bad cannot be argued against. If Trump is deemed the least bad, he will win and be the next president.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It all boils down to a choice between 2 candidates in the end though, so the hmph the other lot are just as bad cannot be argued against. If Trump is deemed the least bad, he will win and be the next president.

true

[user104658]

It all boils down to a choice between 2 candidates in the end though, so the hmph the other lot are just as bad cannot be argued against. If Trump is deemed the least bad, he will win and be the next president.

Of course it can be argued against? "Less bad" doesn't mean good. "He will win and become the next president" also doesn't mean good.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

[bots]

Of course it can be argued against? "Less bad" doesn't mean good. "He will win and become the next president" also doesn't mean good.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

when you have a choice of 2 the fundamental quality of the candidates becomes irrelevant. Surely that pretty clear. If they both score 1 out of 100 in a maths exam, they are **** at maths, but one of them will be deemed to be the best

[user104658]

when you have a choice of 2 the fundamental quality of the candidates becomes irrelevant. Surely that pretty clear. If they both score 1 out of 100 in a maths exam, they are **** at maths, but one of them will be deemed to be the best

This thread is neither about Hillary Clinton nor the US election though? It's about the character of Donald Trump and whether or not certain allegories are accurate or acceptable. The fact that he may or may not be marginally better or worse than another individual is entirely irrelevant to what sort of man he, himself, is... and that is ALL that this thread is about.

[bots]

This thread is neither about Hillary Clinton nor the US election though? It's about the character of Donald Trump and whether or not certain allegories are accurate or acceptable. The fact that he may or may not be marginally better or worse than another individual is entirely irrelevant to what sort of man he, himself, is... and that is ALL that this thread is about.

i was responding to YOUR comment on hilary, so put your superior attitude back in the box where it belongs please.

[user104658]

i was responding to YOUR comment on hilary, so put your superior attitude back in the box where it belongs please.

It was actually LT who brought up Hilary Clinton. As for the rest of it, if you find me to be "superior" that's entirely your problem, not mine :shrug:.


and you think america would be any better under clinton?

look at what her husband did

:umm2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was actually LT who brought up Hilary Clinton. As for the rest of it, if you find me to be "superior" that's entirely your problem, not mine :shrug:.

:fist:

dont drag me into your spat

[user104658]

:fist:

dont drag me into your spat

I already know that you find me superior, LT :hee:

Coz I'm white, innit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I already know that you find me superior, LT :hee:

Coz I'm white, innit.

bleugh

not with your crusty eyes

[the truth]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

:clap1:100% agree. Im ashamed of the monstrous anti American racism that exists throughout every part of England and lots of Europe too. Whether one specifically calls America a race is irrelevant, this is bigotry and discrimination. Europeans love nothing more that slandering the americans. America is by the way way better place to live and visit and the people are infinitely friendlier. and us brits are dumber on average too

[Livia]

:clap1:100% agree. Im ashamed of the monstrous anti American racism that exists throughout every part of England and lots of Europe too. Whether one specifically calls America a race is irrelevant, this is bigotry and discrimination. Europeans love nothing more that slandering the americans. America is by the way way better place to live and visit and the people are infinitely friendlier. and us brits are dumber on average too

You're being bigoted and discriminatory against Brits. You're generalising wildly... most Brits I know love Americans and the American culture. I've lived and worked there... and they're more like us than I can say.

[user104658]

bleugh

not with your crusty eyes

You told me that you were OK with my crusty eye :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You told me that you were OK with my crusty eye :shrug:

:nono: please do not forget the crucial "s"

[user104658]

You're being bigoted and discriminatory against Brits. You're generalising wildly... most Brits I know love Americans and the American culture. I've lived and worked there... and they're more like us than I can say.

This is why I find it hard to agree with lostalex's idea that it's all just an elaborate excuse to "bash" America. I've lived / worked in a variety of social settings and I've honestly never encountered this supposed hatred for America here in the UK :shrug:. There was plenty of anti-Bush stuff, and Bush jokes, when he was president but it was all very much focussed on the man himself and not on generalisations of America or American people...

[user104658]

:nono: please do not forget the crucial "s"

Nope there's definitely only one...

[Tom4784]

Let's be real, the vast majority of the Trump hate from Europeans is just because they miss having Bush as a poster boy to use to Hate America, and they felt uncomfortable using Obama cause he's black... the Anti-Americans are just desperate for a a new white president so they can criticize the country without being called a racist. It really is just that simple.

Trumps statements about mexican immigration or muslim immigration is no worse than what many European politicians have said about the European migration/refugee situation at the moment.

Or most people just don't want an idiot in control of the most powerful country in the world. Also Obama's much more popular internationally than he is in the US so that point is rather silly.

It's not about hating America, nobody here hates America, if anything you seem to have an evident dislike for the UK/Europe given how you look to bring them up in irrelevant topics to bash them.

[Beso]

No one is censoring bob

just trying to move the debate to a slightly higher lever perhaps

trumps like Hitler in the ball department.:thumbs:

[kirklancaster]

Why is there a propensity among certain members on here to always 'shoot the messenger' just because the message does not fit in with their own skewed and ILLOGICAL ideologies?

Comparing Trump to Hitler is odious, and says more about the inner prejudice of those making the comparison than it does about any prejudice Trump stands accused of purely because he speaks the TRUTH about SOME immigrants.

(Some of us on here suffer the same irrational and unfair attacks for speaking that same truth)

So Trump is 'Stupid', 'Trump is like Hitler', 'Trump is 'prejudiced'?

So to examine that truth, let's see how Hitler and Trump REALLY compare:

Hitler was a physical non-descript who suffered from a massive inferiority complex due to his poor background and Father's illegitimacy.
Trump was a "Star Athlete" in his 'college years', and certainly does not suffer from any inferiority complex.

Hitler had merely a 'comfortable' working class early home life.
Trump enjoyed a privileged childhood.

Hitler was a failure who cowardly 'stopped trying' at school because he could not compete against other bright students. He left school with no qualifications having failed his exams.
Trump was a “star pupil” and graduated from, both the New York Military Academy in 1964, and 'Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania 4 years later where he gained a degree in Economics.

(Trump stupid? Don't make me laugh.)

Hitler dreamed of being a famous artist but was again a failure when he was rejected by the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts.
Trump is a multi-billionaire who has been successful and maintained his wealth throughout his life, overcoming the reverses which all ambitious people inevitably encounter.

Hitler - an abject failure and misfit - became a "bum" and "drifter" prior to 'finding' politics.
Trump - a 'winner' in anyone's language - is a multi-billionaire who has been successful and maintained his wealth throughout his life, overcoming the reverses which all ambitious people inevitably encounter.

Hitler illogically and wrongly blamed the ENTIRE Jewish race for ALL Germany's and the world's ills – from causing the Russian Revolution to being solely responsible for the collapse of the German Economy.
Trump is NOT blaming ALL immigrants for America's problems but RIGHTLY pointing out that ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and even THE UNSUSTAINABLE HIGH LEVELS of LEGAL immigration, contribute to its problems - including its massive out of control drugs problems and the growing threat to its security from covert immigrant terrorists.

Hitler scapegoated millions of completely innocent Jews and perpetrated the most heinous, inhuman catalogue of degradation against them culminating in his 'Final Solution' - still the most incredible and sickening evil event in recent history.
Trump is NOT proposing one act of violence against ANYONE.

Hitler - little inadequate toerag that he was - had that insane 'corporate jealousy' known by psychologists as 'Othello Syndrome' - named after Shakespeare's insanely jealous Moor - where one's actions are dictated by a deep seated jealousy resulting from the success of others. He resented the business acumen and success of the Jews who owned half of all German private banks, 'dominated' the stock exchange, controlled half of the nation’s newspapers, and over 80% of Retail Businesses.

Their success only highlighted pathetic-little man Hitler's own total failures and inadequacies, and he conveniently 'forgot' when it came to scapegoating them, that although these remarkable people were indeed Jews, they were - unlike him - also GERMANS.
Trump has NO corporate jealousy and does NOT suffer from 'Othello Syndrome'.
Trump is HUGELY successful in his own right.
Trump LOVES, RESPECTS and WELCOMES successful people - no matter what race, colour, or creed. These entrepeneurial people ALL worship at the same altar of commercialism that he does, and Trump recognises the need for such wealth makers.

Unlike turd Hitler, Trump is not 'grinding' any 'personal axe' when he voices concerns about unfettered legal immigration or unchecked illegal immigration, or the high percentage of criminals, benefit seekers, or subversives among such immigrants.

He is SPEAKING THE TRUTH - a truth corroborated by the FACTS and FIGURES.

Dislike trump all you want. Hate him all you want. But to try to liken him to Hitler and to label him 'stupid' speaks more about your own stupidity and prejudice - in my (always very unpopular) opinion.

As a footnote - and also in my (always very unpopular) opinion; to trivialise a despicable, evil bastard like the psychotic Hitler in such a willy-nilly manner to aid in lambasting people we do not like - also demeans, disrespects, and trivialises the 6 million innocent victims of the Austrian ******'s evil.

[user104658]

Oranges and bananas are both fruits? :joker: PLEASE. Utterly ridiculous. Let's see how they really compare.

A banana starts off green and turns yellow - whilst an orange is obviously ORANGE :shrug:

A banana has an elongated, curved shape whilst an orange is roughly spherical, by all accounts.

The skin of a banana is smooth and almost has the texture of a soft leather, whilst an orange is puckered, hard and waxy.

You have to dig your nails into an orange to begin peeling, whereas a banana has a convenient peeling stick at the top.

Bananas have those weird long stringy bits down each side, while an orange is covered in a with "pith".

An orange divides into segments which can be eaten individually - a banana is more like one piece to be eaten from the top down.

Oranges are juicy, whereas bananas have a soft, squishy texture.

Bananas have a bland carby-ness about them whereas oranges are tangy.

You can make orange juice. You cannot make banana juice :joker: :joker: pls pls I dare you to try lolol.



Don't see how anyone could even begin to compare an orange and a banana! Let alone categorise them both under the same food group! :joker: So ignorant.

[Livia]

Oranges and bananas are both fruits? :joker: PLEASE. Utterly ridiculous. Let's see how they really compare.

A banana starts off green and turns yellow - whilst an orange is obviously ORANGE :shrug:

A banana has an elongated, curved shape whilst an orange is roughly spherical, by all accounts.

The skin of a banana is smooth and almost has the texture of a soft leather, whilst an orange is puckered, hard and waxy.

You have to dig your nails into an orange to begin peeling, whereas a banana has a convenient peeling stick at the top.

Bananas have those weird long stringy bits down each side, while an orange is covered in a with "pith".

An orange divides into segments which can be eaten individually - a banana is more like one piece to be eaten from the top down.

Oranges are juicy, whereas bananas have a soft, squishy texture.

Bananas have a bland carby-ness about them whereas oranges are tangy.

You can make orange juice. You cannot make banana juice :joker: :joker: pls pls I dare you to try lolol.



Don't see how anyone could even begin to compare an orange and a banana! Let alone categorise them both under the same food group! :joker: So ignorant.

I am utterly confused by your points. I get the fruit analogy, I'm not sure why you would work so hard to debunk it. It was perfectly valid.

Are you for or against people comparing Trump to Hitler? Because from your first few posts, you were implying that it was fine. Although that doesn't sit very well with you getting quite bent out of shape because people on here referred to terrorists as "monsters". So... is it okay with you to call Trump and Nazi? And is it not okay with you to refer to terrorists as "monsters". It seems like an overly complicated system you have for grading people's comments.

[user104658]

I am utterly confused by your points. I get the fruit analogy, I'm not sure why you would work so hard to debunk it. It was perfectly valid.

Are you for or against people comparing Trump to Hitler? Because from your first few posts, you were implying that it was fine. Although that doesn't sit very well with you getting quite bent out of shape because people on here referred to terrorists as "monsters". So... is it okay with you to call Trump and Nazi? And is it not okay with you to refer to terrorists as "monsters". It seems like an overly complicated system you have for grading people's comments.

My point is that two things dont have to be identical to come under the same heading,I.e. the argument that Trump is nothing like Hitler because he is not EXACTLY like Hitler is logically invalid. In other words, kirk pointing out the differences between the two men does not negate the fact that there are also similarities, any more than pointing out that bananas and oranges have differences stops either from being a fruit.

Trump is not "a Nazi". Trumps political platform and the rhetoric he uses to gain support has clear similarities to the emotive tactics used by Hitler; economic pride, xenophobia, scapegoating. It is valid to point that out and it is a valid concern, because it is a toxic brand of politics fuelled by fear and hatred. Some seem to believe that this is the same as simply saying "zomg trump is a Hitler Nazi oh no!!", and they seek to shoot this down (passively censor it) by bleating on about Godwin's law.

As for the final part, that's not complicated at all. My issue with terrorists being called monsters has nothing at all to do with it being a "bad term", my issue there is simply that monsters do - not - exist... And using the term "monsters" therefore distracts from the uncomfortable truth of what these people actually are. Nazis on the other hand, are unfortunately very real. It is a descriptive term for a wretched type of human, not an attempt to cognitively reject a human as "other".

[Livia]

My point is that two things dont have to be identical to come under the same heading,I.e. the argument that Trump is nothing like Hitler because he is not EXACTLY like Hitler is logically invalid. In other words, kirk pointing out the differences between the two men does not negate the fact that there are also similarities, any more than pointing out that bananas and oranges have differences stops either from being a fruit.

Trump is not "a Nazi". Trumps political platform and the rhetoric he uses to gain support has clear similarities to the emotive tactics used by Hitler; economic pride, xenophobia, scapegoating. It is valid to point that out and it is a valid concern, because it is a toxic brand of politics fuelled by fear and hatred. Some seem to believe that this is the same as simply saying "zomg trump is a Hitler Nazi oh no!!", and they seek to shoot this down (passively censor it) by bleating on about Godwin's law.

As for the final part, that's not complicated at all. My issue with terrorists being called monsters has nothing at all to do with it being a "bad term", my issue there is simply that monsters do - not - exist... And using the term "monsters" therefore distracts from the uncomfortable truth of what these people actually are. Nazis on the other hand, are unfortunately very real. It is a descriptive term for a wretched type of human, not an attempt to cognitively reject a human as "other".

People can choose to call other people monsters even if they are not literally monsters. They can choose to call them animals, even though they are not literally animals. I can't see why you would be so concerned about the syntax of other people's comments. Terrorist, in my book, ARE monsters. Figuratively, not literally.

Trump is not a Nazi and anyone comparing him to a Nazi needs to look a little harder into what a Nazi actually is.

Also, if people mention Godwin's Law it's for a reason. The fact that you consider it to be "bleating" is neither here nor there.

[user104658]

People can choose to call other people monsters even if they are not literally monsters. They can choose to call them animals, even though they are not literally animals. I can't see why you would be so concerned about the syntax of other people's comments. Terrorist, in my book, ARE monsters. Figuratively, not literally.

Trump is not a Nazi and anyone comparing him to a Nazi needs to look a little harder into what a Nazi actually is.

Also, if people mention Godwin's Law it's for a reason. The fact that you consider it to be "bleating" is neither here nor there.

So it's ok to describe someone as a monster, although they are not literally a monster.

It's OK to describe someone as an animal, although they are not literally an animal.

But if you describe someone using the terms "Hitler" or "Nazi", literally or otherwise, BZZT BZZT BZZT ALARM ALARM GODWIN GODWIN.


Is that about right?

[Crimson Dynamo]

So it's ok to describe someone as a monster, although they are not literally a monster.

It's OK to describe someone as an animal, although they are not literally an animal.

But if you describe someone using the terms "Hitler" or "Nazi", literally or otherwise, BZZT BZZT BZZT ALARM ALARM GODWIN GODWIN.


Is that about right?

monster and animal are generic terms

[Niamh.]

monster and animal are generic terms

Hitler is too though now, have you never heard anyone refer to someone as a Little Hitler....not actually properly comparing them to Hitler but just to mean he's a bit Power mad?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Hitler is too though now, have you never heard anyone refer to someone as a Little Hitler....not actually properly comparing them to Hitler but just to mean he's a bit Power mad?

Not in the instance of this thread

[DemolitionRed]

Godwins Law is merely an internet adage that sits in the jargon file of the slang dictionary. It was originally coined by a frustrated Mike Godwin because the word 'Nazi' was a problematic online topic killer.

Well the topic hasn't stopped here, in fact the title of the topic, the very thing that got this topic going invites us to discuss Nazism. The mention of Nazism on that other thread, didn't kill the thread but actually made the discussion move further.

Godwins law is fine, providing we don't wrap it up with Murphys law and although a few people have tried to do that here, the worst hasn't happened and the topic remains active.

[user104658]

Not in the instance of this thread

But the thread topic - which you wrote yourself - specifies "comparing" and not "equating". And so we come back to my suggestion from earlier; that some people are confused, and don't realise that there is a (significant) difference between these two terms.

It's a common mistake of course. The vast majority of the time when people say "Oh no, you can't compare X to Y!" or "X and Y just do not compare!" they do in fact mean "equate". You can compare anything to anything else. Such is the nature of comparison.

[Livia]

So it's ok to describe someone as a monster, although they are not literally a monster.

It's OK to describe someone as an animal, although they are not literally an animal.

But if you describe someone using the terms "Hitler" or "Nazi", literally or otherwise, BZZT BZZT BZZT ALARM ALARM GODWIN GODWIN.


Is that about right?

I'm wasting my time here.

[user104658]

I'm wasting my time here.

You are, yes.

[Livia]

You are, yes.

I know.

You will stick rigidly to your opinion, crack "jokes" etc. in an effort to mask the fact that you cancel out one of your opinions with another. It's amusing.... but a time waster.

[user104658]

I know.

You will stick rigidly to your opinion, crack "jokes" etc. in an effort to mask the fact that you cancel out one of your opinions with another. It's amusing.... but a time waster.

I think I explained quite clearly why that is not the case; the fact that you don't understand (perhaps by inability, though I suspect by choice) isn't really of any concern to me.

[Livia]

I think I explained quite clearly why that is not the case; the fact that you don't understand (perhaps by inability, though I suspect by choice) isn't really of any concern to me.

You write something I can't comprehend. How likely do you think that is?

Maybe you're not quite grasping my meaning?

[user104658]

You write something I can't comprehend. How likely do you think that is?

100% likely, on account that it has happened on this thread. Although as I said, I suspect the "misunderstanding" is probably by choice and you are in fact well aware that there is no contradiction.

[Livia]

100% likely, on account that it has happened on this thread. Although as I said, I suspect the "misunderstanding" is probably by choice and you are in fact well aware that there is no contradiction.

Your default argument is always : maybe you're too stupid to understand me [I'm paraphrasing].

Again... not very likely, is it.

[user104658]

Your default argument is always : maybe you're too stupid to understand me [I'm paraphrasing].

Again... not very likely, is it.

I know perfectly well that you're not "too stupid to understand me" Livia which is why - again - I will point out that my argument here is in fact not this supposed "default" argument.

My argument is that you know fine well that there is no contradiction (im drawing a parallel between some of Trump's political tactics and pre-WWII Germany, and my issue with terrorist-psychology being brushed off as "just monsters") but you are for some reason trying to create a supposed logical contradiction to further your own argument.

There is no logical contradiction. The two issues are entirely unrelated. :shrug:

[Rob!]

http://i.imgur.com/4ffSx3a.jpeg

He's also said that the only reason he isn't tackling gay marriage as well is because he'd be "fighting a losing battle."

Also they both had stupid hair.

[DemolitionRed]

@Also they both had stupid hair.

Ah yes! the famous comb over.

[Kizzy]

It was the hair that first made me suspect there may be some correlation too! :eek:

[Crimson Dynamo]

i cant argue the hair thing tbh

[Mokka]

http://i.imgur.com/4ffSx3a.jpeg

He's also said that the only reason he isn't tackling gay marriage as well is because he'd be "fighting a losing battle."

Also they both had stupid hair.

what about his blaming Mexican's for America's problems... and his promise to deport them as well

[Alf]

http://i.imgur.com/4ffSx3a.jpeg

He's also said that the only reason he isn't tackling gay marriage as well is because he'd be "fighting a losing battle."

Also they both had stupid hair.
Were the Jews committing terrorist attacks on Germany? Were the Jews preaching death to Germany?

Is it not the Presidents duty to protect it's Country's people?

[Livia]

Were the Jews committing terrorist attacks on Germany? Were the Jews preaching death to Germany?

Is it not the Presidents duty to protect it's Country's people?

I'm pretty sure they're not going to let facts get in the way of a funny picture.

[user104658]

Were the Jews committing terrorist attacks on Germany? Were the Jews preaching death to Germany?

Is it not the Presidents duty to protect it's Country's people?

Replace "Muslims" with "Mexicans" (who he also demonizes, dehumanises, and wants gone) and this argument falls flat.

[Northern Monkey]

Replace "Muslims" with "Mexicans" (who he also demonizes, dehumanises, and wants gone) and this argument falls flat.

Mexicans commiting terrorist acts in Germany?I did'nt hear about that.

Edit:Oops.I just replaced "jews" with Mexicans

[Northern Monkey]

Hitler could only dream of having those beautiful aryan blonde locks.

[Alf]

Replace "Muslims" with "Mexicans" (who he also demonizes, dehumanises, and wants gone) and this argument falls flat.Feel free to show me where on that poster which I replied to, does it say Mexicans. And then we can talk about my argument falling flat.

[user104658]

Feel free to show me where on that poster which I replied to, does it say Mexicans. And then we can talk about my argument falling flat.

Are you suggesting that Trump does NOT blame any of America's problems on immigrants from Mexico, and does not advocate the mass deportation of Mexicans from the United States?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Are you suggesting that Trump does NOT blame any of America's problems on immigrants from Mexico, and does not advocate the mass deportation of Mexicans from the United States?

are you saying that mexican illegal immigration is not a problem in america?

[Alf]

Are you suggesting that Trump does NOT blame any of America's problems on immigrants from Mexico, and does not advocate the mass deportation of Mexicans from the United States?No, I didn't suggest anything. I asked three questions to the person who posted a comparison of Hitler's dislike of the of the Jews and Trumps dislike of Muslims.

What you seem to have done is assume that I'm all for Trump putting up a wall to keep out Mexican criminals, but I don't believe I've ever once mentioned that, because it's something that doesn't effect me here in Britain.

[user104658]

are you saying that mexican illegal immigration is not a problem in america?

Mexicans illegals are not currently, nor have they ever been, any sort of real threat to US security or the US economy. So yeah... I guess I sort of am saying that.

[iRyan]

He has a point, but the truth is there are evident similarities between Hitler and Trump, and defining the acknowledgement of these similarities as "the worst kind of hate speech" is really reaching.

[iRyan]

To me it sounds like a conservative trying on liberal rhetoric to make a point that's really not all that important. Criticizing people for using "hate speech" against Trump when Trump uses hate speech himself is just like...really? The difference is Trump is one billionaire running for president, and the people Trump attacks are races and religions that peacefully make up populations in the millions.

[DemolitionRed]

Thank you iRyan, you nailed it.

[joeysteele]

To me it sounds like a conservative trying on liberal rhetoric to make a point that's really not all that important. Criticizing people for using "hate speech" against Trump when Trump uses hate speech himself is just like...really? The difference is Trump is one billionaire running for president, and the people Trump attacks are races and religions that peacefully make up populations in the millions.

Very strong points in my view,very thought provoking.

[Kizzy]

Yep, nobody can align trump with a despot and yet he can align millions of innocents with terrorists :/
The golden rule?

[user104658]

I get a little chuckle every time I see this thread title.

Really.

Not just "a kind of hate speech"...

" the worst kind of hate speech. "

The WORST kind.

Of hate speech. Of all the hate speeches ever made and their horrendous effect on the world. The worst. :hee:

[Northern Monkey]

I get a little chuckle every time I see this thread title.

Really.

Not just "a kind of hate speech"...

" the worst kind of hate speech. "

The WORST kind.

Of hate speech. Of all the hate speeches ever made and their horrendous effect on the world. The worst. :hee::joker:

[Tom4784]

Yep, nobody can align trump with a despot and yet he can align millions of innocents with terrorists :/
The golden rule?

It's a glorious mix of hypocrisy and white privilege.

[Samm]

Were the Jews committing terrorist attacks on Germany? Were the Jews preaching death to Germany?

Is it not the Presidents duty to protect it's Country's people?

Yet the muslims aren't committing terror attacks on America or preaching death to America, god I've had enough of people linking ISIS and Muslims as the same

[Alf]

Yet the muslims aren't committing terror attacks on America or preaching death to America, god I've had enough of people linking ISIS and Muslims as the same
Just woke up have we?

Morning:wavey:

[Samm]

Just woke up have we?

Morning:wavey:

Uh? :wavey:

[bots]

Trump is not saying all muslims, he is saying those that want to harm America. I think its amazing that he is being condemned for trying to protect Americans from terrorists

[kirklancaster]

WHAT THE FECK IS THAT IDIOTIC, BAD HAIR SPORTING, XENOPHOBIC, RACIST TRUMP BLAMING POOR MEXICANS FOR?

1)The United States is a lucrative market for illegal drugs.
2)The United Nations estimates that nearly 90% of cocaine sold in the United States originates in South America and is smuggled through Mexico.
3)Mexico is the largest foreign supplier of marijuana and the second largest source of heroin for the U.S. market.
4) The majority of methamphetamine sold in the United States is made in Mexico.
5) Mexican-run methamphetamine labs that operate north of the border account for much of the remainder.
6) Mexican drug cartels play a major role in the flow of cocaine, heroin, and marijuana transiting between Latin America and the United States.
7)These drug cartels often use Mexican-American gangs to distribute their narcotics.
8)Mexican drug cartels also have ties to Colombian drug traffickers, and other international organized crime.
9) A sharp spike in drug-related violence has some analysts worrying about the 'Colombianization' of Mexico.

DOESN'T IDIOT TRUMP KNOW THAT IT IS NOT VICIOUS CRIMINAL MEXICAN DRUG GANGS WHO ARE DIGGING TUNNELS INTO THE US, BUT GENIAL AND BENIGN PEACE LOVING MEXICANS WHO JUST WANT TO SMUGGLE BUNCHES OF FLOWERS INTO THE USA AS GESTURES OF NEIGHBOURLY LOVE?

AND DOESN'T THE IDIOT KNOW THAT THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THE RUMOURS THAT SEX SLAVES AND FEE PAYING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE BEING TRANSPORTED THROUGH THESE TUNNELS COURTESY OF VICIOUS 'PEOPLE TRAFFICKERS?

Mexican authorities find a drug smuggling tunnel close to the US border. Discovered in Tijuana, just two blocks from the border, this is the third tunnel found in the area since April. The unfinished passage emerges in a building belonging to an import/export company.

Over the past decade, more than 75 illegal tunnels have been found along the 2,000-mile US-Mexico border

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/aug/03/mexican-authorities-uncover-drug-smuggling-tunnel-us-video

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT IDIOT RACIST TRUMP DOESN'T KNOW ALL THIS WHEN A FEW OF THOSE SMART PEOPLE ON TIBB DO.

[user104658]

Cartels have little, if anything, to do with economic migration.

[billy123]

You must be so proud of him :joker::joker::joker: what a ****ing idiotfest.

I7PVtBPEKXA

[kirklancaster]

Cartels have little, if anything, to do with economic migration.

But their 'merchandise' has a hell of a lot to do with damaging the US economy.

America is in the grip of a devastating drug problem and collosal sums of money are being spent on Police, Security, Judicial, Prison, and Medical Services, by way of:

'Policing' the border.
Detecting the hundreds of thousands of criminals who work in the drug trade within America once those drugs are successfully smuggled by the Mexicans over or under the border.
Dealing with the thousands of violent crimes and murders which are 'Drug Related'
Maintaining the Penal Institutions where the above are sent when caught - which is the minority, as most are not caught.

The most severe damage which the drug cartels are responsible for causing to the USA though, is that inflicted upon the poorest and most vulnerable of its citizens who make up the largest group of users, and once addicted ALL hope of bettering their lives is gone - no matter how slim a chance they had of doing so anyway.

Trump is correct in what he says - even though he should have chosen his way of expressing what he says more wisely - and Mexicans ARE a MAJOR problem to the USA's Economy and Security.

The Drug Trade and People Trafficking are multi Billion Dollar industries, and wherever there are such huge amounts of money there is ALWAYS Goverment corruption, and some corrupt Mexicans in positions of authority are making huge sums from their corruption - from Mexican Politicians who are illicitly working FOR the Drug Cartels, to Immigration Agents and Border Guards who are assisting the Drug Smugglers and People Traffickers to 'smuggle' their 'merchandise' into the USA.

There are well documented cases of such Mexican Authorities offering valid US identification for sale, including US Passports and Social Security Numbers, and of Border Guards actually assisting illegal entry into the US by advising the 'Smugglers' and 'turning a blind eye'.

The $64,000 Dollar Question is this T.S.:

With such types of corruption among the Mexican Authorities at ALL levels, how long will it be before ISIS Suicide Bombers or Terrorists - who can more than match the wealth of the Drug Cartels and People Traffickers - start to bung a few hundred thousand to the these corrupt Mexican Authorities, or the Drug Cartels and People Traffickers themselves, and start to FREELY enter the USA by these many and diverse routes?

Trump is not an idiot. Nor is he xenophobic or racist.

He is correct.

[DemolitionRed]

A lot of very stirred up emotions going on there bobnot.

[bots]

Trump is controversial, there is no doubt about it, but sometimes difficult subjects need to be addressed and talked about full on rather than hiding behind political correctness. It gets people talking and exploring all options. It doesn't mean they will end up being implemented in the way that Trump is proposing.

The president can't do anything without support in congress and a backroom staff that also signs up to his policies, so it needs a great deal of support to get any traction at all. All that assumes that he actually becomes president, which although possible, cannot be assumed as given.

The bottom line is that he would need significant support to achieve what he wants, and if it becomes a reality it will be because he has the overwhelming support of the American people.

[billy123]

A lot of very stirred up emotions going on there bobnot.Indeed. I think it was the official announcement that if you needed assistance from security to remove somebody near you that the thing to do was to raise a Trump Placard and chant "Trump Trump Trump" that confirmed it as an idiotfest for me.

[user104658]

But their 'merchandise' has a hell of a lot to do with damaging the US economy.

America is in the grip of a devastating drug problem and collosal sums of money are being spent on Police, Security, Judicial, Prison, and Medical Services, by way of:

'Policing' the border.
Detecting the hundreds of thousands of criminals who work in the drug trade within America once those drugs are successfully smuggled by the Mexicans over or under the border.
Dealing with the thousands of violent crimes and murders which are 'Drug Related'
Maintaining the Penal Institutions where the above are sent when caught - which is the minority, as most are not caught.

The most severe damage which the drug cartels are responsible for causing to the USA though, is that inflicted upon the poorest and most vulnerable of its citizens who make up the largest group of users, and once addicted ALL hope of bettering their lives is gone - no matter how slim a chance they had of doing so anyway.

Trump is correct in what he says - even though he should have chosen his way of expressing what he says more wisely - and Mexicans ARE a MAJOR problem to the USA's Economy and Security.

The Drug Trade and People Trafficking are multi Billion Dollar industries, and wherever there are such huge amounts of money there is ALWAYS Goverment corruption, and some corrupt Mexicans in positions of authority are making huge sums from their corruption - from Mexican Politicians who are illicitly working FOR the Drug Cartels, to Immigration Agents and Border Guards who are assisting the Drug Smugglers and People Traffickers to 'smuggle' their 'merchandise' into the USA.

There are well documented cases of such Mexican Authorities offering valid US identification for sale, including US Passports and Social Security Numbers, and of Border Guards actually assisting illegal entry into the US by advising the 'Smugglers' and 'turning a blind eye'.

The $64,000 Dollar Question is this T.S.:

With such types of corruption among the Mexican Authorities at ALL levels, how long will it be before ISIS Suicide Bombers or Terrorists - who can more than match the wealth of the Drug Cartels and People Traffickers - start to bung a few hundred thousand to the these corrupt Mexican Authorities, or the Drug Cartels and People Traffickers themselves, and start to FREELY enter the USA by these many and diverse routes?

Trump is not an idiot. Nor is he xenophobic or racist.

He is correct.
But Trump hasnt only talked about tightening borders, he's talked specifically about targeting and deporting Mexican families and individual economic migrants who have lived there for decades. That reveals his attitudes for exactly what they are. Trying to link or liken all Mexican migrants into the US to drugs or cartels is just as offensive and even more ridiculous than branding all Muslims terrorists. The HUGE majority of Mexicans living in the United States are normal working families, often doing the jobs that US citizens do not want for less money and with zero employment rights. Several US economists have pointed out the "ugly truth" that there are large sections of the US economy that would struggle to operate without cheap immigrant labour.

Tightening the borders may have the EFFECT of lessening the ability of drug cartels to operate, but it's perfectly clear that his major motivation is simply to keep Mexicans - ALL Mexicans - out. And not for the benefit of US security or economy. Just because it's his M.O., he lives in a fantasy world where the US can close borders and in effect become a massive "gated community", and be an entirely self-sufficient economic powerhouse where everyone lives happily ignoring the problems of the rest of the world.

[Kizzy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdUZlHMUEAAwxY3.jpg

[Alf]

http://www.thedailyrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Hillary-salute-2.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFZ-ja5WMAASdA1.jpg:large

https://creationsciencestudy.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/hitlery.jpg


3-1

[kirklancaster]

But Trump hasnt only talked about tightening borders, he's talked specifically about targeting and deporting Mexican families and individual economic migrants who have lived there for decades. That reveals his attitudes for exactly what they are. Trying to link or liken all Mexican migrants into the US to drugs or cartels is just as offensive and even more ridiculous than branding all Muslims terrorists. The HUGE majority of Mexicans living in the United States are normal working families, often doing the jobs that US citizens do not want for less money and with zero employment rights. Several US economists have pointed out the "ugly truth" that there are large sections of the US economy that would struggle to operate without cheap immigrant labour.

Tightening the borders may have the EFFECT of lessening the ability of drug cartels to operate, but it's perfectly clear that his major motivation is simply to keep Mexicans - ALL Mexicans - out. And not for the benefit of US security or economy. Just because it's his M.O., he lives in a fantasy world where the US can close borders and in effect become a massive "gated community", and be an entirely self-sufficient economic powerhouse where everyone lives happily ignoring the problems of the rest of the world.

An excellent response T.S. with some valid points - which is becoming so refreshing on here - but I was rather addressing the kernel of truth in what Trump rather ham-fistedly states.

[kirklancaster]

http://www.thedailyrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Hillary-salute-2.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFZ-ja5WMAASdA1.jpg:large

https://creationsciencestudy.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/hitlery.jpg


3-1

:joker::joker::joker: :clap1::clap1::clap1:

LMFAO:

[Northern Monkey]

http://www.thedailyrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Hillary-salute-2.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFZ-ja5WMAASdA1.jpg:large

https://creationsciencestudy.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/hitlery.jpg


3-1:joker:

[lostalex]

wow, so we went from a thread about Trump being compared to Hitler to a thread comparing Hillary to Hitler?

TiBB never fails to disappoint me with it's idiocracy...

Is anyone smart here? (don't answer that)

[Alf]

[QUOTE=lostalex;8559232]wow, so we went from a thread about Trump being compared to Hitler to a thread comparing Hillary to Hitler?QUOTE]
The truth of the story always comes out in the end.

[lostalex]

The truth of the story always comes out in the end.

i agree. stupid keeps being stupid, on and on and on....

[Crimson Dynamo]

wow, so we went from a thread about Trump being compared to Hitler to a thread comparing Hillary to Hitler?

TiBB never fails to disappoint me with it's idiocracy...

Is anyone smart here? (don't answer that)

one was serious one was a piss take of the first

[user104658]

wow, so we went from a thread about Trump being compared to Hitler to a thread comparing Hillary to Hitler?

TiBB never fails to disappoint me with it's idiocracy...

Is anyone smart here? (don't answer that)
I think a few of us are passable but let's face it... No one all that smart would be here in the first place. They'd be doing literally anything else.

[Kizzy]

I think a few of us are passable but let's face it... No one all that smart would be here in the first place. They'd be doing literally anything else.

Hey! when I joined it was this or 'farm town', it was a close run thing :laugh:

[billy123]

Is anybody really still believing the storyline that Trump is feeding to the terminally stupid. :conf:
What you are watching is an expensive carefully constructed sequence of events designed to appeal to bigots,racists,idiots and people that have Nationaist/Patriotic tendencies.

Trump and his gimps have complete control of who attends his events if you think otherwise then LOL.


He said the event was cancelled after advice by police. The police quickly confirmed there was no contact from Trumps team and no advice of the sort was given.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-chicago-police-deny-advising-republican-to-cancel-violent-campaign-rally-a6927336.html

And as for an ISIS member trying to join him on stage :joker::joker::joker::joker: what a *****ing dumb ****. Ony a moron would actually swallow the diarrhoea that Trump is pumping down their throats.
I honestly cant imagine how backwards you would have to be to swallow Trumps diarrhoea.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

[I://creationsciencestudy.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/hitlery.jpg[/IMG]


3-1

The man she is doing it to clearly states it was a reference to Heil hitler. So don't pretend you can't tell the differences between badly timed photos and a gesture of hate.

[Kizzy]

Well well well, added to this the evidence that the 'subversives' are out of work actors ....hmmmm, tricky Mr Trump very tricky.

[Alf]

The man she is doing it to clearly states it was a reference to Heil hitler. So don't pretend you can't tell the differences between badly timed photos and a gesture of hate.
Okey Dokey

[Kizzy]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-13-2016/in4qeh.gif

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-13-2016/in4qeh.gif

This woman is a human being and although I don’t share her views, I start yelling “I will respect my elders. Please. Leave.” and a few other great folks and I start to clear the path. I walk right up to her and say “Ma’am we have listened to you. We understand this is all a little wild but we have cleared a path for you to leave *my right hand was constantly swinging in motion, showing her the path out we made for her, as shown in the photo*”

She goes, and I quote “Go? Back in my day, you know what we did-”

Bam. Hail’s Hitler.

I go “Ma’am you are endagering your life doing this. LEAVE. TAKE YOUR HUSBAND AND LEAVE.” (I mean, anyone who knows me knows I get loud, so you know, sorry about that.)

And she won’t. She won’t budge. A young woman comes up to me and says “She wants this. Leave her be.” looks to her and goes “God bless you. I hope you make it home safe.” and I walk away from her astounded.




..............

[Crimson Dynamo]

:joker:

So called #Trump "Nazi" is a #BernieSanders agitator/operative?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdWw59TUYAMamwn.jpg


It's another media plant.


or

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nazi-saluting-trump-supporter-says-shes-not-a-nazi/

either way its a little bit embarrassing for a certain poster

:hee:

[Northern Monkey]

:joker:

So called #Trump "Nazi" is a #BernieSanders agitator/operative?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdWw59TUYAMamwn.jpg


It's another media plant.


or

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nazi-saluting-trump-supporter-says-shes-not-a-nazi/

either way its a little bit embarrassing for a certain poster

:hee:
Lol!They will do anything.Dirty politics

[Kizzy]

:joker:

So called #Trump "Nazi" is a #BernieSanders agitator/operative?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdWw59TUYAMamwn.jpg


It's another media plant.


or

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nazi-saluting-trump-supporter-says-shes-not-a-nazi/

either way its a little bit embarrassing for a certain poster

:hee:

Do you mean me?
Whatever his or anyone elses supporters do or don't do, it doesn't change how I feel about Trump and his ideology.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Do you mean me?
Whatever his or anyone elses supporters do or don't do, it doesn't change how I feel about Trump and his ideology.

i dont

[Kizzy]

i dont

Well I posted the image initially, it isn't an activist but a woman called Brigitte born in Berlin in 46... Not that that means anything naturally.

[user104658]

:joker:

So called #Trump "Nazi" is a #BernieSanders agitator/operative?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdWw59TUYAMamwn.jpg


It's another media plant.


...those are quite blatantly not the same person. Seriously now.

or

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nazi-saluting-trump-supporter-says-shes-not-a-nazi/

either way its a little bit embarrassing for a certain poster

:hee:

Ahh, LT's famous concrete evidence in action. "She's not got Nazi sympathies, coz she sez so!"

[Moniqua]

they are the same.

[arista]

they are the same.


Utter Rubbish
Hitler murdered Millions
in his trick Poland camp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler


Nothing like Trump.
you are Crazy

[Oliver_W]

The whole "everyone I don't like is Hitler!!111" thing seems to have died down recently. It's a bit of a naive comparison to make but I wouldn't say it's crazy :joker: Trump's a fricking idiot,maybe he's more of a Caligula. Or maybe a Nero, I could see him fiddling away after setting fire to America.

[Nicky91]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/5/17940610/trump-hitler-history-historian

one older article back in 2018, but also one leading Holocaust historian who did compare US to nazi-Germany


Christopher Browning, one of America’s most eminent and well-respected historians of the Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Browning

[Livia]

they are the same.

I blame the education system for comments like this.

[Nicky91]

check one post above you Livia

or do you also discredit a well respected historian's claims, and this Browning had went to 2 University's, also graduated from both too, as well as having released a book with his historical facts about holocaust

so if this historian makes a comparison between USA and Nazi-Germany, with Trump, McConnell

[Livia]

check one post above you Livia

or do you also discredit a well respected historian's claims, and this Browning had went to 2 University's, also graduated from both too, as well as having released a book with his historical facts about holocaust

so if this historian makes a comparison between USA and Nazi-Germany, with Trump, McConnell



The comparison of the USA with Nazi Germany is an insult to everyone who suffered and died.

[caprimint]

I blame the education system for comments like this.
Idk about thaaaaaaat

:fan:

[Livia]

Idk about thaaaaaaat

:fan:

LOL.....

[arista]

The comparison of the USA with Nazi Germany is an insult to everyone who suffered and died.



Very True Livia

[user104658]

The comparison of the USA with Nazi Germany is an insult to everyone who suffered and died.Anyone who knows anything about German history, not just WW2/Hitler but the class divides and rising tensions that lead into both WW's, can make clear and distinct comparisons to the current class war (and it is primarily a class war, not a race war) that has been bubbling up in the US (and in slightly different ways, the UK) in recent years. The comparisons are there to be made. Not to the war and Nazi rule itself, but to the socioeconomic conditions that people with other agendas exploited in order to gain positions of power and influence, and encourage the compliance, that made those atrocities possible.

It might be "offensive", but making analytical comparisons of history in order to identify and hopefully swerve the same issues is the whole point of studying history and politics :think:. If people find these topics too personally offensive/uncomfortable to engage with then it's that individuals prerogative to not engage, but to claim that "no one should do it" because some people might overhear and not like what they're hearing? Meh. Unacademic, illogical and damaging thinking.

[Livia]

Anyone who knows anything about German history, not just WW2/Hitler but the class divides and rising tensions that lead into both WW's, can make clear and distinct comparisons to the current class war (and it is primarily a class war, not a race war) that has been bubbling up in the US (and in slightly different ways, the UK) in recent years. The comparisons are there to be made. Not to the war and Nazi rule itself, but to the socioeconomic conditions that people with other agendas exploited in order to gain positions of power and influence, and encourage the compliance, that made those atrocities possible.

It might be "offensive", but making analytical comparisons of history in order to identify and hopefully swerve the same issues is the whole point of studying history and politics :think:. If people find these topics too personally offensive/uncomfortable to engage with then it's that individuals prerogative to not engage, but to claim that "no one should do it" because some people might overhear and not like what they're hearing? Meh. Unacademic, illogical and damaging thinking.

So.… comparisons with Nazi Germany should just be sucked up? Because you think it unacademic, illogical and damaging.

It's funny to be how gentiles repeatedly tell me what I should be thinking in case I don't understand. Even more insulting.

You may wrongly think that making comparisons between Trump, who's probably finished after his Covid performance, and Hitler is perfectly acceptable. That's your prerogative. But please don't tell me that I'm wrong to disagree. Especially in light of your sig....a bunch of completely out of context Googled quotes from the man who saved this country from the Nazis. Also your prerogative...

[Moniqua]

they are the same.

[arista]

they are the same.

Crazy
you are deluded

[Moniqua]

it's all showing isn't it :hehe:

https://66.media.tumblr.com/0b1f2d102a98e1378b0de63be9df5f4a/50e613916440529e-f7/s400x600/189a92de01aa6da3f63becaaaf4e51e36834b9bb.gifv

[The Slim Reaper]

:joker:

[Livia]

What does that even mean?

[user104658]

So.… comparisons with Nazi Germany should just be sucked up? Because you think it unacademic, illogical and damaging.

It's funny to be how gentiles repeatedly tell me what I should be thinking in case I don't understand. Even more insulting.

You may wrongly think that making comparisons between Trump, who's probably finished after his Covid performance, and Hitler is perfectly acceptable. That's your prerogative. But please don't tell me that I'm wrong to disagree. Especially in light of your sig....a bunch of completely out of context Googled quotes from the man who saved this country from the Nazis. Also your prerogative...I'm not telling you what to think or what your opinions should be - but you're not saying that you are insulted by it, or that you find it offensive, you're stating as fact that it IS inherently insulting and offensive in an attempt to shame people out of doing it. There's one person here trying to shut down opinion and dictate "appropriate conversation" Livia, and it certainly isn't me. I fully accept your right to find these comparisons and conversations difficult and offensive. I don't accept your attempts to shame other people out of having those conversations, and making those comparisons.

You also, presumably, know fine well that comparison and pointing out precedent in no way involves suggesting equivalency? That pointing out that there are valid comparisons to be made between current global politics and early-20th-century politics (which seems undeniable, to me) is not in the slightest the same thing as saying they're identical, nor is it an attempt to argue that Trump is identical to Hitler. The "comparison = equivalence" counter arguments are usually a strawman tactic employed by people who find the comparison confronting or uncomfortable.

I can compare apples to oranges, pears, plums, carrots, and small red family hatchbacks whilst acknowledging that none of them are the same thing.

You're in law. You understand that. You know that pointing out precedent in a previous case is not a claim that two cases are identical. Why do you keep pretending that you're mystified by the concept?

[Livia]

I'm not telling you what to think or what your opinions should be - but you're not saying that you are insulted by it, or that you find it offensive, you're stating as fact that it IS inherently insulting and offensive in an attempt to shame people out of doing it. There's one person here trying to shut down opinion and dictate "appropriate conversation" Livia, and it certainly isn't me. I fully accept your right to find these comparisons and conversations difficult and offensive. I don't accept your attempts to shame other people out of having those conversations, and making those comparisons.

You also, presumably, know fine well that comparison and pointing out precedent in no way involves suggesting equivalency? That pointing out that there are valid comparisons to be made between current global politics and early-20th-century politics (which seems undeniable, to me) is not in the slightest the same thing as saying they're identical, nor is it an attempt to argue that Trump is identical to Hitler. The "comparison = equivalence" counter arguments are usually a strawman tactic employed by people who find the comparison confronting or uncomfortable.

I can compare apples to oranges, pears, plums, carrots, and small red family hatchbacks whilst acknowledging that none of them are the same thing.

You're in law. You understand that. You know that pointing out precedent in a previous case is not a claim that two cases are identical.
Why do you keep pretending that you're mystified by the concept?



Patronising.

You don't need a Jew in these threads, especially not one who's connected with Israel in any way. It just spoils the party.

[user104658]

Patronising.



You don't need a Jew in these threads, especially not one who's connected with Israel in any way. It just spoils the party.You not wanting to have a discussion because you either don't have a response, or most likely just can't be bothered, doesn't make me patronising. It's fine that you don't want a discussion. You could just say so.

[Oliver_W]

Crazy
you are deluded
He's either trolling or doesn't know any better, no-one could reasonably think the two men are comparable, stop getting your knickers in a twist :joker:

Anyone who knows anything about German history, not just WW2/Hitler but the class divides and rising tensions that lead into both WW's, can make clear and distinct comparisons to the current class war (and it is primarily a class war, not a race war) that has been bubbling up in the US (and in slightly different ways, the UK) in recent years. The comparisons are there to be made. Not to the war and Nazi rule itself, but to the socioeconomic conditions that people with other agendas exploited in order to gain positions of power and influence, and encourage the compliance, that made those atrocities possible.
Hm, if class strife was present in both world wars and the current day, maybe it's just a crappy part of society which has been there for a long time, and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon?

People with power have always exploited it, and those being exploited have always resented it. I don't know when or if that'll change, but it doesn't mean modern day America (or UK) is similar to ore-WW2 Germany :laugh:

[Tom4784]

The only people trying to make out that comparing Trump's administration to the rise of the Nazis is a bad thing are the Trump supporters themselves.

You can cry all you want but the comparisons are there, Trump has been making plays from the Fascist playbook since the start.

[user104658]

He's either trolling or doesn't know any better, no-one could reasonably think the two men are comparable, stop getting your knickers in a twist :joker:

Again confusing comparable with equatable. Any two figures are comparable. As a comparison would involve noting how two things are dissimilar, as well as similar. You can compare a tangerine to the sun, if you want. One is hotter than the other. One is bigger than the other. They're both round, they're both orange. Yes you could point out that these are understatements, but they are nonetheless comparisons. You could point out that the sun isn't actually orange, that's a misunderstanding. All part of the debate.





Hm, if class strife was present in both world wars and the current day, maybe it's just a crappy part of society which has been there for a long time, and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon?



People with power have always exploited it, and those being exploited have always resented it. I don't know when or if that'll change, but it doesn't mean modern day America (or UK) is similar to ore-WW2 Germany [emoji23]

Trump has utilised the division to gain a passionate following, and there are some worrying trends in the way he's trying to control the democratic process, media, and that following's anger to further his own prejudices. There are obvious differences in scope, too. I'd argue that some of that is more to do with his ability to push for his darker impulses. Thus far the US system has held up in many ways.

All of which would be an interesting discussion and comparison, but that's automatically "not OK" apparently. I get it when it's a lazy comparison, but it also invalidates a discussion that's worth having.

[Oliver_W]

Trump has utilised the division to gain a passionate following, and there are some worrying trends in the way he's trying to control the democratic process, media, and that following's anger to further his own prejudices. There are obvious differences in scope, too. I'd argue that some of that is more to do with his ability to push for his darker impulses. Thus far the US system has held up in many ways.

All of which would be an interesting discussion and comparison, but that's automatically "not OK" apparently. I get it when it's a lazy comparison, but it also invalidates a discussion that's worth having.

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

[Jigs]

Trump is very Hitleresque and the sooner he meets the same demise, the better!

[Oliver_W]

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

"Comparing Trump to Hitler is giving him too much credit" isn't quite what I meant, btw :joker:

[JerseyWins]

https://i.gyazo.com/44400292c6f4d4ab37b0b574d3004b63.png

[user104658]

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?

That part I agree on, Trump is more of a lightning rod for a certain mindset than a mastermind who is manipulating that mindset in any sort of organised way. He is capitalising on it in broad, obvious strokes.

[bots]

Trump doesn't believe in anything other than himself, he doesn't have any political motives other than to feather his own nest

[user104658]

Trump doesn't believe in anything other than himself, he doesn't have any political motives other than to feather his own nestMaybe but that doesn't make him any less worrying. He knows why he was elected, he knows what his support base wants to see, and he has no moral objection to giving it to them.

[GiRTh]

I agree there's a discussion to be had, but it often just boils down to "he's a racist with concentration camps!!111" and it ends there, and if that's the depth of the argument it's a bit silly. But when it comes to things like his attempts to manipulate the media and widen existing societal divides, that's more worth it.

I'm wary of giving him too much credit, like how much of it is on purpose, and how much of it either cleverer people behind the scenes pulling the strings, or simply hollow bluster which people can get attached to?Trumps former Chief of Staff John Kelly was a retired four star General in the US Marine Corp. Many thought he'd bring disicipline to the white House. We now know even he failed to bring any kind of order to Trumps world. Trump works on his own instincts and not much els. Considering how poorly informed he is its makes him even scarier. Trumps only puppet master is Putin, there are no cleverer people pulling the strings.

[caprimint]

https://i.gyazo.com/44400292c6f4d4ab37b0b574d3004b63.png
:skull:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Donald represents the fact that certain small section of society are following a pov that no one supports or votes for

They keep losing and they are angry

They are violent, they are dangerous but they are a clang in an empty pot

We all have to listen but we don't really have to worry to much..

He doesnt

[Moniqua]

Donald represents the fact that certain small section of society are following a pov that no one supports or votes for

They keep losing and they are angry

They are violent, they are dangerous but they are a clang in an empty pot

We all have to listen but we don't really have to worry to much..

He doesnt

naive, yet apt of you to think that the way Trump operates doesn't effect trans lives, black lives or immigrants lives and that they don't have to worry

[GoldHeart]

awwwww was poor Trump upset.
I guess the truth hurts :hee:

[GoldHeart]

I blame the education system for comments like this.

Well I blame the lack of intelligence and racism for Trump being in power in the first place :hee: :bored:

[DouglasS]

they are the same.

Have you been missing your history lessons over lockdown?

[Crimson Dynamo]

naive, yet apt of you to think that the way Trump operates doesn't effect trans lives, black lives or immigrants lives and that they don't have to worry

He is,a president of 300 million

Not 1500

[Moniqua]

bigoted gay incels are weird af im tired

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3953e73b0d773643931412967d24825a/5cd211008bd568be-dd/s500x750/0765a4190b596077db4a8eab9c34299090c5fa78.jpg

[Tom4784]

He is,a president of 300 million

Not 1500

You should tell him that, given how he constantly tries to deny aid and budget to states that are opposed to him.

[Tom4784]

He was also president to the US soldiers who had hits taken out on them and he knew about it for months but he didn't seem to do anything about it.

[Mystic Mock]

Trump's obviously not as bad as Hitler, but he definitely takes a leaf out of the Hitler rulebook on certain issues imo.

[Jessica.]

The amount of lives that have been lost because of Donald Trump is astronomical, the amount of racism he has incited is insane, he's homophobic, transphobic, he made the entire US go backwards. He deserves to be compared to Hitler.

[Livia]

Trump is not Hitler.

[user104658]

Trump is not Hitler.

...however, he is comparable to Hitler in several ways. Let's take a balanced look at the ways in which they are politically and personally similar, as well as the ways in which there are clear differences."


No? :shrug:

[Livia]

...however, he is comparable to Hitler in several ways. Let's take a balanced look at the ways in which they are politically and personally similar, as well as the ways in which there are clear differences."


No? :shrug:

He is not comparable to Hitler in any way and the continuous claims that he is sound ridiculous. Trump is scum....but he's not Hitler and the continued claims that he is are stupid and insulting to all the people who died... and I say that in the knowledge that Jews were less than a third of the people who died in death camps.

Reductio ad Hitlerum. It's quite ridiculous...

[Liam-]

Of course he isn’t Hitler, Hitler has been dead for a long time, but he’s like him in many ways

[Livia]

Of course he isn’t Hitler, Hitler has been dead for a long time, but he’s like him in many ways

Reductio ad Hitlerum. Again.... This forum has made it a speciality.

[user104658]

He is not comparable to Hitler in any way and the continuous claims that he is sound ridiculous. Trump is scum....but he's not Hitler and the continued claims that he is are stupid and insulting to all the people who died... and I say that in the knowledge that Jews were less than a third of the people who died in death camps.

Reductio ad Hitlerum. It's quite ridiculous...

I'm not going to point out the differences between comparison and equivalence again, it's just getting boring. You can compare a marble to the moon without someone shouting "DUH LOL the moon is not a marble!!"

There are similarities, there are differences. It would obviously be an understatement to say that Hitler was morally worse than Trump. Hitler was also a better economist, leader, public speaker and strategist than Trump (which isn't praise; it makes him far more terrifying). Trump has tried to use economic fears and class divisions to consolidate power, has tried to silence the media, has tried to interfere with democratic process - and would have happily scrapped the lot with a wave of his hand if the US constitution wasn't robust enough to mitigate it. I think Trump would have escalated to the point of doing worse things than he is if he was able to gain the sort of unilateral power that Hitler had, but thankfully, he has not been able to do that. Hitler was full of rage and hatred for those he saw as lesser; Trump on the other hand lacks empathy and is apathetic to people he sees as lesser.

These are obviously all opinion-based, and at no point have I tried to claim that Trump is Hitler or the same as Hitler... but it clearly IS possible to make comparisons. "There's no comparison!" is just flawed in definition, but I see it all the time. There's no equivalence. That's not the same as there being no comparison.

I'm not going to point out the differences between comparison and equivalence again

Damnit I typed this then I just went and did it...

[user104658]

Reductio ad Hitlerum. Again.... This forum has made it a speciality.

Yes we know the phrase and we know what it means. It is a real thing, but it would be completely illogical to suggest that because Godwin's law is real... no one and nothing can be compared to Hitler or Naziism ever again. There are still going to be situations where there's a discussion to be had that is valid and NOT reductive.

There are many elements of the early-2000's that are echoes of the early-1900's and so these discussions are inevitable and valid. They're not reductive at all if they openly discuss the similarities and differences between the time periods and major figures.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Hitler and Sir Keir

Both men

Both leaders

Both of Socialist parties

Both short hair

Both Virgos

Both small hands




Chilling

[user104658]

Hitler and Sir Keir

Both men

Both leaders

Both of Socialist parties

Both short hair

Both Virgos

Both small hands




Chilling

LT aptly demonstrating the differences between equating and comparing by failing to offer examples of how Keir and Hitler are different. My own little Debbie McGee! Thank you.

[Withano]

I’d agree, but I can see the logic

Trump and Johnson killed thousands this year due to their incompetence, that’s different to intentionally murdering a specific group

[Nicky91]

in light of hate speech, very well known Dutch brands have talked to facebook about hate speech on there, but none have pulled ads yet

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/06/dutch-brands-talk-to-facebook-about-hate-speech-but-none-have-yet-pulled-ads/


The Dutch Association of Advertisers, which includes Jumbo, ING, Bol.com and Procter & Gamble, is to hold talks with Facebook about the company’s response to combating racism and hate speech across its platforms.

also something about Unilever, https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/06/unilever-to-stop-advertising-on-facebook-in-the-us-due-to-polarised-atmosphere/


Worldwide, some 160 companies have said they will not advertise on Facebook for at least the month of July. Their number includes Unilever, which said on Friday it would not advertise on Facebook in the US because of the ‘polarised atmosphere’ there.

in Netherlands BvA


In the Netherlands, the BvA is now calling on Facebook to take a tougher line on hate speech. ‘If you see what platforms are earning, then more intensive moderation should be part of their service provision,’ director Henriette van Swinderen said.‘We believe it is possible to increase the control of social media content without threatening freedom of speech,’ the organisation said on its website. ‘This is the responsibility of the platforms, together with the entire communications industry.’



and also Telecom group KPN said it is monitoring closely what sort of messaging its adverts appear next to. ‘If they do not fit with us, or our clients, then we will take action,’ a spokesman told the paper.

[Kizzy]

Its not just the US there is a power struggle the world over within the countries that are considered 'democracies', those of the left always traditionally offer progression as far as I can see, even Blair before he became another warmonger.

Those that have been right leaning have listed further and further aided by devisive media campaigns... This is where there should be a massive red flag, as we know propaganda against many sections of society was rife in the Edwardian era.
We should always learn from history to prevent repetition, as said to make direct comparisons at this stage may be considered unsubstantiated and alarmist.

However, if we take the use of language, the demonisation of sub groups, the disregard for intellectuals and experts the rewriting of history, the withdrawal of support, funding and services we do appear to have parallels.

Godwins law is all well and good, however when its used out of context to shut down debate then it becomes counter productive and frankly quite dangerous.

[Liam-]

1278738455653224448

Oop, not the first time they’ve been caught using nazi imagery either

[Oliver_W]

1278738455653224448

Oop, not the first time they’ve been caught using nazi imagery either

That's reaching a bit when America's "symbol" looks like this

https://linguapress.com/photos/bald-eagle-seal.jpg

[Liam-]

That's reaching a bit when America's "symbol" looks like this

https://linguapress.com/photos/bald-eagle-seal.jpg

Proving the point that it looks much more like the nazi one, thanks

[Oliver_W]

Proving the point that it looks much more like the nazi one, thanks

Sure, but I'd never even seen the Nazi cross with a bird atop it before :laugh: With all the Nazi comparisons people make all the time, why would they do it on purpose?

I once read a book where some vampires were trying to immunise themselves to holy symbols, so they kept looking at them so it wouldn't hurt if a cross was thrown in their face. But it backfired and they kept recognising holy symbols everywhere, like the cracks in the wall, and that was affecting them. There are only so many symbols which can exist,and this comes off as an unfortunate coincidence. I guess some people just know more Nazi symbols than others :shrug:

[bots]

Sure, but I'd never even seen the Nazi cross with a bird atop it before :laugh: With all the Nazi comparisons people make all the time, why would they do it on purpose?


They do it on purpose to attract that voter type. It was no accident that Trump retweeted that white power video at the weekend either ... he is getting desperate because he knows he is going to lose unless he does something

[Liam-]

I’d be more likely to say it was a coincidence if it was the first time they’ve used imagery very similar to nazi imagery, but it isn’t

[Livia]

I’d agree, but I can see the logic

Trump and Johnson killed thousands this year due to their incompetence, that’s different to intentionally murdering a specific group

To which specific group to you refer? Hitler killed gays, gypsies, the disabled, Masons, Jews.... he killed twice as many Russian prisoners as he killed Jews. Maybe you need to know more before you make such a massive comparison. But hey... you're all enjoying yourselves so crack on. Don't let a lack of information deter you.

[Moniqua]

To which specific group to you refer? Hitler killed gays, gypsies, the disabled, Masons, Jews.... he killed twice as many Russian prisoners as he killed Jews. Maybe you need to know more before you make such a massive comparison. But hey... you're all enjoying yourselves so crack on. Don't let a lack of information deter you.

you really are unpleasant

[Oliver_W]

They do it on purpose to attract that voter type. It was no accident that Trump retweeted that white power video at the weekend either ... he is getting desperate because he knows he is going to lose unless he does something
"Wow, he used an obscure Nazi symbol which also uses the symbol of our country! That's helped me make up my mind!"

I’d be more likely to say it was a coincidence if it was the first time they’ve used imagery very similar to nazi imagery, but it isn’t
I wouldn't even put it past him to deliberately use Nazi imagery, I just think in this case it's more likely a coincidence :laugh:

[Oliver_W]

Though today's Simpsons was amusingly prophetic, with Hillary running for the Dems nomination and an eight year old saying he wanted to "make the country great again" :laugh: that episode was from 2008 I think