Panama papers?...

[DemolitionRed]

I think we'd find he did a preferential sale and that his assets in Blairmore were worth considerably more than what he sold them for.

[Scarlett.]

Well after all that Cameron's taxes actually show nothing of interest at all, nothing illegal and nothing that's even very shady. I see no reason why he should publish all his taxes from before he was PM - to even release what he has is pretty unprecedented and makes him by far the most transparent PM we've ever had

Except, you know, that 'gift' of £200,000 from his mother, shortly after his father's death.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36007718

[the truth]

this weasel is giving a different version of events every day and simply avoiding the whole question.....mr slippery must never wriggle off the hook on this. frankly he has GOT TO RESIGN

[MTVN]

Except, you know, that 'gift' of £200,000 from his mother, shortly after his father's death.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36007718

I'd say that falls into the 'nothing that's even very shady' territory. That's a very common practice that any decent accountant would advise a family on and its not exactly outrageous for parents to want to support their children as much as possible. Cameron has never made a secret of the fact that he was extremely lucky to be born to privileged parents

Martin Lewis, founder of MoneySavingExpert.com, said it was wrong to call Mrs Cameron’s gift to her son ‘tax avoidance’.

‘The rules are plain – you can give money from income, or give money more than seven years before you die and there’s no inheritance tax. Utilising that isn’t dodgy,’ he said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3533141/Pro-Brexit-Tories-PM-tax-say-Labour-hypocrites-acting-like-hyenas-tax-avoidance-BBC-Guardian-revealed-despite-leading-charge-Panama-Papers-backlash.html#ixzz45UleKpKM

[arista]

"Martin Lewis, founder of MoneySavingExpert.com, said it was wrong to call Mrs Cameron’s gift to her son ‘tax avoidance’. "

Yes he was on many TV news channels
saying just that.

[Ammi]

..inheritance tax has never made sense to me...someone works their whole life and pays tax on their earnings..(ok, Mr Cameron senior didn't pay tax on all of his money but in general I mean/for those who do etc..)...if they're fortunate enough to have savings and invest, then tax is applicable there as well...then it's taxed again with inheritance tax when that person dies...it's like the Bob Dylan lyrics, how many times must a man (or woman..)..pay tax...

[DemolitionRed]

Clearly, what Cameron has shown in his tax returns thus far are self regulated.
He said in 2012 that he would publish his tax returns. This funny document does not meet that commitment, and one has to wonder why he has gone to the effort of putting together this summary (for clarity, it is said) and not just published the returns, or published the returns alongside the summary.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/04/10/david-camerons-tax-disclosure-a-story-but-maybe-not-the-whole-one/

[Cherie]

I don't know why this thread has wandered into inheritance tax, the thresholds are there to be used by everyone not just the privileged few which seemed to be the original point.

[bots]

I don't know why this thread has wandered into inheritance tax, the thresholds are there to be used by everyone not just the privileged few which seemed to be the original point.

because people are clutching at straws to make a demon out of Cameron.

Anyone who has had to manage significant sums of money understands that choices have to be made in managing it. This thread is just highlighting that the majority of negative contributers have never been in that position and therefore don't understand the realities.

[smudgie]

Plenty of people I know have gifted their cash or properties to their kids.
Makes absolute sense, as long as they allow you to carry on living there and don't put you on the street. The council don't take to kindly to it and are not fussed on rehousing you.
The biggest reason nowadays was to stop spending it all on care home fees.

[user104658]

Plenty of people I know have gifted their cash or properties to their kids.
Makes absolute sense, as long as they allow you to carry on living there and don't put you on the street. The council don't take to kindly to it and are not fussed on rehousing you.
The biggest reason nowadays was to stop spending it all on care home fees.
True. Also, technically the money I got when my mum died was a "gift" from my dad. It was money that was in her pension and she intended to be left to me and my sister, as my parents separated 10 years before she died. However, they never finalised a divorce and their "separation agreement" was long expired by then, so although they were still separated, legally they were the same as any married couple, so her pension all went to my dad when she died. He then split it in half and gave the money to me and my sister.

Thinking about it, it's a good thing he's not a total arsehole or he could legally just have kept it :think:...

That said, transfer of cash and assets before death is technically a "tax dodge". I don't have any moral issue with it exactly as I don't particularly agree with inheritance tax: that money and those assets have already been taxed and really people should be able to leave their worldly goods to their loved ones without the government taking a chunk... BUT if you are involved in politics you really have to play by the rules. Or risk being a hypocrite. You can't be in charge and tell everyone else which rules they must play by, then play by different rules yourself.

[Kizzy]

The inheritance tax angle is for me an unwelcome deflection on the real issue which remains the use of tax havens.
As said inheritance is money already taxed (for most)

[arista]

3:30PM the PM is Live in Parliament today
talking about Tax

[Kizzy]

Oh god they've dug up the emergency ghoul monotone Mogg...

'He said it was wrong to suggest that tax avoidance could be immoral. David Cameron should not have condemned legal tax avoidance by the commedian Jimmy Carr, he suggested.
We have to remember that tax evasion is illegal, but tax avoidance is not. People are not supposed to arrange their tax affairs, as Lord Clyde famously said, to allow the Inland Revenue to put the largest shovel into their stores. People are entitled to use legal means, such as buying duty free or ISAs or pension funds, not to pay more tax than required by law ...

Some, particularly on the left, elide evasion and avoidance. That has been a great mistake and has confused people about the two. Evasion is illegal and people can go to prison for. Avoidance is, buy duty free.

There is no morality in this question at all. It’s a question of what the law says. If parliament can’t pass proper laws that collect the right amount of tax, that’s the fault of parliament, not of the people obeying the tax law.'

BUT turns out he's talking rubbish...

In an earlier interview on the programme Graham Aaronson, a leading tax barrister who has chaired two government committees looking at tax avoidance, said that this was wrong, and that tax avoidance has a much narrower definition.

I may be helpful just to stand back and say what do we mean by tax avoidance. As you have just said, of course we are dealing with transactions that are completely legal. That isn’t the issue. The issue, when one talks about tax avoidance, is whether something, although legal, is dodgy, a bit smelling. What’s the criterion to test this? Both the committees that I have chaired, and the highest court in the land, have adopted a very simple working principle that a course of conduct that is entirely legal but is contrary to what parliament would have expected taxpayers to do, that can be described as tax avoidance. Something that parliament did not intend its legislation to be used in that way.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/11/cameron-tax-commons-statement-offshore-tax-osborne-likely-to-publish-tax-return-details-treasury-hints-politics-live

[Kizzy]

It just gets murkier....

Labour has stepped up demands for an independent inquiry into the Panama Papers leak after it emerged the head of HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) was previously a partner at a law firm which represented a number of offshore companies - including Blairmore Holdings, the fund set up by David Cameron's father.

'HMRC has been given in a lead role in the £10 million taskforce launched by Mr Cameron to investigate allegations of wrongdoing linked to the Panama Papers leak of more than 11 million files from Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/panama-papers-hmrc-chief-was-partner-at-law-firm-that-acted-for-david-cameron-offshore-fund-a6978071.html

[the truth]

politicians when passing bent laws or circumventing them immorally or illegally become emboldened to keep doing so and it only gets worse and worse. The fact he keeps changing his story day by day, the fact hes saying its wrong and immoral for jimmy carr and others shows him to be a deceitful immoral hypocritical liar. the fact hes the man meant to be in charge of fighting to stop this massive tax evasion makes his position untenable.

[arista]

George Osborne
has now published his Tax Returns.

Corbyn needs to find his Tax Returns
before Weds Live PMQ's?

Ref: LBC

[arista]

The PM is Live Now
all media

[arista]

Dennis Skinner
the Old Sod
was just Ejected from the House



Simple because he refused to stop saying
"Dodgy " Dave


The Word Dodgy can not be used at Any PM.

[Scarlett.]

Dennis Skinner
the Old Sod
was just Ejected from the House



Simple because he refused to stop saying
"Dodgy " Dave


The Word Dodgy can not be used at Any PM.

Including Tony Blair? :joker:

[joeysteele]

I am pleased to hear of actions that are now being planned and taken as to these accounts as outlined by the PM today.
At least that will be something to have come from this list being made known.

[arista]

Including Tony Blair? :joker:



Yes but now known as the Illegal War Monger

[DemolitionRed]

Here in this article Snowden talks in Vancouver about how the Panama papers highlight the need for whistleblowers.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2621323/snowden-tells-vancouver-audience-panama-papers-highlight-need-for-whistleblowers/

[billy123]

Dennis Skinner
the Old Sod
was just Ejected from the House



Simple because he refused to stop saying
"Dodgy " Dave


The Word Dodgy can not be used at Any PM.The Beast of Bolsover is great im glad he stuck to his word and refused to withdraw his comment a politician that speaks his mind is a rare thing these days.
There are worse things he could have called the dirty piggy fiddler.

qvIUa47x_Oc

[DemolitionRed]

I saw that live today bobnot but I enjoyed watching it again. Camerons assassins smile was a picture. :hehe:

[Kizzy]

Skinner you legend!!

[Kizzy]

'Interest from his high street savings accounts amounted to £26 in 2009-10, £87 in 2010-11, £365 in 2011-12 before rising to £2,701 in 2012-13, £6,681 in 2013-14 and £3,052 in 2014-15.'

He moved some serious money prior to the election by the look of it...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/panama-papers-david-cameron-inherited-300000-from-father-and-received-200000-gift-from-mother-tax-a6976991.html

George really needs to change to the bank of Dave...

'The summary also showed that Mr Osborne earned just £3 from bank interest in 2014/15.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-osborne-tax-return-shows-chancellor-earned-more-than-200000-in-a-year-a6979061.html

[kirklancaster]

I must confess that all this 'Panama Papers' row has me very worried.

On his deathbed, my dear old dad - who worked ALL his life as a coal miner (apart from 12 years in the British Army) snided me a pair of his worn out pit boots, an empty 'Jubilee' stout bottle (which was worth 3 old pence if returned to the local Miners Welfare Club) and a screwed up ten bob note (50 pence in todays money).

"Don't tell the tax man about these son" he whispered "I've paid him enough".

Well, I never did tell the tax man, but now I'm worried. Should I have? Will I get locked up if he finds out?

I just don't know what to do. :shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not sure what that's all about Kirk. The panama papers show multi-national companies/millionaires/billionaires dodging paying their dues, paralleled with people like your dad who have to compensate these losses with his own tax payments.

[DemolitionRed]

"The government announced yesterday that:

On 12 May, the Prime Minister will host the Anti-Corruption Summit to step up global action to expose, punish and drive out corruption in all walks of life.

The summit will seek to galvanise a global response to tackle corruption. As well as agreeing a package of actions to tackle corruption across the board, it will deal with issues including corporate secrecy, government transparency, the enforcement of international anti-corruption laws, and the strengthening of international institutions.

It will be the first summit of its kind, bringing together world leaders, business and civil society to agree a package of practical steps to expose corruption so there is nowhere to hide punish the perpetrators and support those affected by corruption drive out the culture of corruption wherever it exists

OK then, do this:

Full country-by-country reporting for all multinational corporations
Do a proper public register of beneficial ownership in the UK backed up by supporting evidence from banks who undertake checks on the companies they provide services to
Impose the same on our Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories.

If said this was the goal then I might believe David Cameron is serious.

Until then, let’s be clear, his words are not worth the paper they are written on, as his failure to act yesterday showed."
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/04/12/33127/
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/04/12/david-camerons-hollow-words-on-corruption

[user104658]

qvIUa47x_Oc

Jesus ***ing christ at this entire thing. I'm at an absolute loss for words to describe how I feel about the commons. A shower of snide, petty school boys playing games and it couldn't be any clearer. How are we still putting up with this excuse for "government"? HOW?

[DemolitionRed]

Jesus ***ing christ at this entire thing. I'm at an absolute loss for words to describe how I feel about the commons. A shower of snide, petty school boys playing games and it couldn't be any clearer. How are we still putting up with this excuse for "government"? HOW?

That's right... get angry TS :fist::fist::fist: ANGER is active, depression is passive.

[arista]

Jesus ***ing christ at this entire thing. I'm at an absolute loss for words to describe how I feel about the commons. A shower of snide, petty school boys playing games and it couldn't be any clearer. How are we still putting up with this excuse for "government"? HOW?


I am Glad the Old Fool
was Ejected

[arista]

Skinner you legend!!


That was a Set Up



He is a Old Fool

[joeysteele]

That was a Set Up



He is a Old Fool

Whatever else may have come about from it, whether he was right or wrong to refuse to withdraw the comment.

He pulled even greater attention to it by being told to leave the Commons,with a very sad faced Speaker to have to tell him to do so and the apparent cheering from the govt benches at an 80 year old man being forced to leave the chamber just for what he said.

Brought back memories of the elderly man ejected from a Labour Conference some years back, which was also thought shameful and pathetic.
I think with the wider audience and getting on the national news reports too, the sympathy here will be more with Dennis Skinner than the smug looking Conservative front bench.

[MTVN]

You'd think Skinner would appreciate protocol after all his time in the Commons rather than play the naughty kid in the schoolyard role

[DemolitionRed]

Whatever else may have come about from it, whether he was right or wrong to refuse to withdraw the comment.

He pulled even greater attention to it by being told to leave the Commons,with a very sad faced Speaker to have to tell him to do so and the apparent cheering from the govt benches at an 80 year old man being forced to leave the chamber just for what he said.

Brought back memories of the elderly man ejected from a Labour Conference some years back, which was also thought shameful and pathetic.
I think with the wider audience and getting on the national news reports too, the sympathy here will be more with Dennis Skinner than the smug looking Conservative front bench.

The good thing that came out of this is, lots of people are talking about it. That little outburst had no end of conversation going on within my workplace today; even people who normally have zero interest in politics were taking interest.

[smudgie]

You'd think Skinner would appreciate protocol after all his time in the Commons rather than play the naughty kid in the schoolyard role

Just his normal attention seeking attitude. He does not improve with age.
More Bellend than legend.

[DemolitionRed]

Labour has, according to the Mirror http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-unveils-10-point-tax-7728449#ICID=sharebar_twitter published the following ten point tax plan:

1 An immediate public inquiry “to establish the harm done to the UK’s tax revenue and consider detailed proposals for reform”. These could include forcing firms and trusts to publish more information.

2. Change the register of MPs’ interests forcing members to publish all offshore holdings, no matter how small.

3. Create a ‘Specialised Tax Enforcement unit’ in HMRC, doubling the number of staff who scrutinise the affairs of the wealthiest individuals and firms.

4. Force foreign firms to list their owners and beneficiaries if they are bidding for public sector contracts.

5. Negotiate an EU deal forcing to multinational firms to file public reports on their dealings, country by country, and protecting whistleblowers.

6. Introduce a “General Anti-Avoidance Principle” and extend current rules to cover offshore abuses.

7. Crack down on accounting tricks, including telling courts to ignore “artificial steps” inserted in transactions to try and reduce tax.

8. Work with banks to find out more about who owns the companies and trusts they work with.

9. Introduce ‘strict minimum standards’ on transparency for crown dependencies and overseas territories like the British Virgin Islands – where more than 100,000 Panama Papers firms were based. That includes a public register of owners, directors, major shareholders and beneficial owners.

10. Draw up plans for a register of trusts which transfer trustees’ residence offshore and tax avoidance schemes involving trusts which are disclosed to the HMRC under the current law.

[joeysteele]

I think it is time Parliament was brought into the 21st century,it is perfectly fine to make insults to other MPs even leaders as to their dress sense, to even call them idiots as I believe the PM did as to Ed Balls on more than one occasion.

However the term dodgy was so out of order on this occasion that an MP of decades standing in the Commons in his 80s was told to leave, yet the word dodgy has been used many time to describe a dossier presented by a PM which seems acceptable.

People miss the point, Dennis Skinner made a point his way, he has often strayed from the dafter stricter parliamentary procedures.
Had it been passed over, it would have had no effect but the way it was handled by the Speaker in the end brought even greater attention to it and the issue in fact.

It will not have done Dennis Skinner any harm in the slightest and he will not lose a second of sleep worrying about it either.
Clearly he may have struck a raw nerve it seems with the term dodgy in my opinion.

[the truth]

yet these idiots are allowed to heckle scream and shout and make animals noises to silence questions and kill proper debate yet never get thrown out for it?

[joeysteele]

yet these idiots are allowed to heckle scream and shout and make animals noises to silence questions and kill proper debate yet never get thrown out for it?

Exactly.
That is the biggest likely turn off too for most viewers when watching any House of Commons debates.

[user104658]

Exactly.
That is the biggest likely turn off too for most viewers when watching any House of Commons debates.
I literally can't watch them at all. 10 second clips infuriate me. A bunch of posh little boys sat on their mouldy old green benches, smirking and guffawing and bleating and yanking on their little willies... The embodiment of smugness, snideness and privilege. The entire thing is a national embarrassment. It makes me genuinely angry.

It doesn't need "some reform" it needs tearing to the ground and rebuilding from scratch.

[joeysteele]

I literally can't watch them at all. 10 second clips infuriate me. A bunch of posh little boys sat on their mouldy old green benches, smirking and guffawing and bleating and yanking on their little willies... The embodiment of smugness, snideness and privilege. The entire thing is a national embarrassment. It makes me genuinely angry.

It doesn't need "some reform" it needs tearing to the ground and rebuilding from scratch.

I now think you are right,parliament really needs to be more democratic and far more representative of the multi party system we have and therefore the voters of all those parties too.

More accountability that is relevant and not just about arrogance a great deal of the time,more humility and true consensus on all sides being made the norm.

[arista]

Whatever else may have come about from it, whether he was right or wrong to refuse to withdraw the comment.

He pulled even greater attention to it by being told to leave the Commons,with a very sad faced Speaker to have to tell him to do so and the apparent cheering from the govt benches at an 80 year old man being forced to leave the chamber just for what he said.

Brought back memories of the elderly man ejected from a Labour Conference some years back, which was also thought shameful and pathetic.
I think with the wider audience and getting on the national news reports too, the sympathy here will be more with Dennis Skinner than the smug looking Conservative front bench.


Yes Skinner was the First item
on Live USA Red Eye comedy Hour 3AM USA
8AM UK.