What does 'patriotism' mean to you?

[Kizzy]

What is your personal definition of patriotism? I struggle to figure out what modern patriotism looks like.

Singing the national anthem? campaigning for better services? supporting our troops?

Do you see one political party to be more patriotic than others?

[Firewire]

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

[Kizzy]

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

Like it or not you are British, it's very telling that you wish to distance yourself so definitely from England with regard to your patriotism though :laugh:
If I were Scottish I may feel the same round about now mind.

[joeysteele]

Being able to have pride in your Country,to be proud of what it does,achieves and what it stands for.

[Firewire]

Like it or not you are British, it's very telling that you wish to distance yourself so definitely from England with regard to your patriotism though :laugh:
If I were Scottish I may feel the same round about now mind.

Yes I am

[Kizzy]

Yes I am

I'm not bothered where it refers to, just what you consider it to be in general really.

[Shaun]

Being proud of your country I suppose. I don't particularly possess the trait but I'll support us in sports / other competitive events.

[Alf]

A sense of identity, who you are, and where you're from, being proud of that cost's nothing and hurts no one.

[Princess]

Being proud of the country you're from I'd said. It's funny though cos a lot of people I've encountered seem to think it's a given and it's very strange if you don't like the place you're from, like you can help that at all. I've never felt patriotic to be Irish, it's why I moved to England, but I'm not sure there's a word for feeling patriotic for a country that isn't the one you're from.

[Ninastar]

I'd say it was being proud of where you're from but tbh I've seen the word used in bad light a lot recently. I think its a good thing to be proud of where you're from. Unless you're that patriotic that you're nasty about other places ofc.

[user104658]

I'd say it was being proud of where you're from but tbh I've seen the word used in bad light a lot recently. I think its a good thing to be proud of where you're from. Unless you're that patriotic that you're nasty about other places ofc.
It's used in a bad light because there's patriotism, which is celebrating the good things about your country... And then there's BLIND patriotism, which is ignoring anything that isn't so good, or making excuses for things that are downright awful.

Then of course pointing out the flaws in ones own country is branded as unpatriotic, which is bull****.

[jennyjuniper]

I'm proud to be a Yorkshirewoman/Scot. Proud to be English and proud to be British. I'm proud of the decent men and women who work hard, sacrifice and try to give a decent upbringing to their children.
I'm proud of our armed forces and the police/fire/medical professions who work hard for very little pay or thanks.
What I am not proud of is the fat cat politicians and money men who are trying to suck poor old Britain dry. Or the bleeding heart liberals who want us all to wear welcome mats for the rest of the world to wipe it's feet on.

[Kazanne]

I'm proud to be a Yorkshirewoman/Scot. Proud to be English and proud to be British. I'm proud of the decent men and women who work hard, sacrifice and try to give a decent upbringing to their children.
I'm proud of our armed forces and the police/fire/medical professions who work hard for very little pay or thanks.
What I am not proud of is the fat cat politicians and money men who are trying to suck poor old Britain dry. Or the bleeding heart liberals who want us all to wear welcome mats for the rest of the world to wipe it's feet on.

This ^ in a nutshell.

[Mystic Mock]

Patriotism to me is someone that cares about their country, and if a problem arises in the country that the people would actually care enough to try and stop it and not be like the Russians for example who have kept their psychotic dictator in charge of their country for all this time and his sent them backwards.

But yes a patriot should love his or her country while also acknowledging the faults of their country and it needing to be fixed.

[waterhog]

I would do a poem on patriotism
but like normal it would come under criticism.
its its not about war and muscle
or showing any anger you can up rustle.
its about standing proud
not leading but showing you are part of the crowd.
united does simply explain our freedom
and that's why I am patriotic to untied kingdom.
I have a very high place to preach
sorry abu hamsa down on Finsbury park your hook wont reach.
it needs to flow through this country
with all the hate it up sewing and refusing entry.
my poetry flow and pain is chronic
my only release is on TIBB as I am so patriotic.

[joeysteele]

Patriotism to me is someone that cares about their country, and if a problem arises in the country that the people would actually care enough to try and stop it and not be like the Russians for example who have kept their psychotic dictator in charge of their country for all this time and his sent them backwards.

But yes a patriot should love his or her country while also acknowledging the faults of their country and it needing to be fixed.



Good one Mock.

[MTVN]

Patriotism is different for Scottish people I think. I don't have a British patriotism.

In what sense?

[Kizzy]

I'm guessing he means he's patriotic towards Scotland but not Britain due to England being part of it.

[MTVN]

Well I get that a lot of people will feel more patriotic towards Scotland/Wales/England/Northern Ireland than to the UK as a whole but I don't see how that makes the patriotism different as if there's a uniquely Scottish brand of it

[user104658]

In what sense?

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

[MTVN]

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.

The British Empire was never wholly English, of course, or even predominantly so. Scotland had its own colonial enterprises before the Act of Union (1707), and afterwards arguably contributed more to their joint imperial project than its southern neighbour. Of course you don’t find the Scots celebrating this much now, as imperialism is no longer generally considered to have been A Good Thing and the idea that they were colonial victims seems a better card to play for a people striving (some of them) for national independence

http://www.historytoday.com/blog/2012/06/scotland-and-british-empire#sthash.VoPjOluu.dpuf

I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.

[Kizzy]

I get that TS personally I'm deeply ashamed of our colonial past and balk at the thought of it being seen as what made Britain 'great' for me it was the utilisation of the people to form industry, civil defence and public service.
Everything that is now being removed by those who claim to be to be working in the interest of British values.

[Kizzy]

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.



I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.

Historically as now countries do what the 'kings' of the day want....NOT the people.

* see James V11
* see Thatcher
* see Blair
* see Cameron

[user104658]

I don't know, I think that view is more a product of recent history and the surge for Scottish independence. It doesn't make sense to see the Empire as an 'English' phenomenon because a lot of the most enthusiastic Empire builders were Scots and the whole thing permeated through Scotland just as much as it did England.



I don't really think that patriotism differs that much across different countries, some might think they have better reason to feel 'pride' in their country than others but its still essentially the same phenomenon.
Having lived here for a bit longer than the "recent surge for independence", I can confirm that you are wrong. The empire was indeed a product of Scotland as much as England but that's not relevant as the empire is over; meaning that we now "pick and choose" (loosely, obviously we're talking about sweeping social choice here not conscious individual choice) which parts of culture and history form the overall basis of national identity.

England, whilst it does have a lot of REGIONAL culture and many strong - but notably, distinct - regional identities... It really has no overall unifying sense of national identity OTHER than empire.

It would probably be more accurate to say that there really isn't any strongly defined sense of English culture or English patriotism. Essentially, there is British culture, Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish culture, and then a whole array of various regional English identities ("Londoner", "Yorkshireman", "Geordie" etc) and when English people talk about patriotism, what they really are referring to is British patriotism rather than English patriotism, whilst in Scotland, there are plenty of both Scottish patriots AND British patriots but they do not mean the same thing... And it is British patriotism that is rooted in Empire / Global strength.

Really this is reflective of the overall perception of Britain / British, though. For example, when filling in a form, English people are much more likely to use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably whereas "Scottish" and "British" and certainly "Irish" and "British", are more distinct descriptions.

[Firewire]

I'm guessing he means he's patriotic towards Scotland but not Britain due to England being part of it.

Absolutely not what I mean, please don't answer for me when the question was directed at me

[Firewire]

In what sense?

It was two separate points really. I was differentiating patriotism as I can see there being two separate branches of it. Which would be the same for Welsh and Northern Irish people as well, I guess, but as I'm from Scotland I isolated that.

But I essentially mean that Scottish heritage is different to British, so I hold more of a patriotism to Scotland than the UK.

For example, the tradition of ceilidhs, Hogmanay, Robert Burns and kilts, are just some of the things associated with Scottish patriotism if we look at it from a traditional sense. Or we could look at free education, free prescriptions or even landscape. Those are things I would associate with patriotism. I love Scotland even though I'm British. I don't know the British national anthem and I have no desire of learning it. I don't care for the Royals. I like Andy Murray. I don't like football but want Scotland to succeed if they ever play. That's all areas of patriotism.

As someone suggested, it's not about hating England. I love England. But patriotism is more than just being a "fan of the UK".

[DemolitionRed]

I'm proud of my Pict routes. I believe we have some of the most beautiful countryside in the world. Whilst the north Yorkshire moors and the highlands are chilly and damp, nothing can take away there beauty.

I'm also proud of my French routes but there is one thing I'm very aware of when in France. The Italians, Americans and Germans are loud but you seldom pick up an English accent, not because they aren't around but because they speak so quietly, as though they don't want anyone to know they are English.

[Kizzy]

Absolutely not what I mean, please don't answer for me when the question was directed at me

Ah well just say what you mean then, being so vague just causes people to have to second guess what you might be referring to.

[MTVN]

Having lived here for a bit longer than the "recent surge for independence", I can confirm that you are wrong. The empire was indeed a product of Scotland as much as England but that's not relevant as the empire is over; meaning that we now "pick and choose" (loosely, obviously we're talking about sweeping social choice here not conscious individual choice) which parts of culture and history form the overall basis of national identity.

England, whilst it does have a lot of REGIONAL culture and many strong - but notably, distinct - regional identities... It really has no overall unifying sense of national identity OTHER than empire.

It would probably be more accurate to say that there really isn't any strongly defined sense of English culture or English patriotism. Essentially, there is British culture, Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish culture, and then a whole array of various regional English identities ("Londoner", "Yorkshireman", "Geordie" etc) and when English people talk about patriotism, what they really are referring to is British patriotism rather than English patriotism, whilst in Scotland, there are plenty of both Scottish patriots AND British patriots but they do not mean the same thing... And it is British patriotism that is rooted in Empire / Global strength.

Really this is reflective of the overall perception of Britain / British, though. For example, when filling in a form, English people are much more likely to use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably whereas "Scottish" and "British" and certainly "Irish" and "British", are more distinct descriptions.

Ok I see your point now, it probably is true that England is more a collection of regional identities whereas Scotland and Wales often seem more homogeneous. Mind you there are plenty of Scots who subscribe to the God Save the Queen, Rule Britannia brand of patriotism.

[Niamh.]

Patriotism is different in every country, based on their history, surely?

English/British history is based on purely on Empire and so English patriotism and pride is rooted in that, and therefore, the illusion of power and presence and "a place on the world stage(!!!)" tends to be a very important concept within English patriotism.

Smaller countries like Scotland / Ireland which have a very specific internal culture unrelated to global politics have a different sense of patriotism. There's a lot of self-deprication, humour, and "underdog" stuff in there that you don't get in England (because England thinks it's a big-boy, not an underdog).

To use another example: American patriotism finds its roots in the idea of being newer / better / and importantly, personal freedom, and a sense of self-sufficiency. Again there's no humour in their patriotism; it's firmly "we are THE best" probably more than any other country in the world. All of which of course stem from colonization and independence.

Russia, Israel and South Africa are other interesting ones, for examples of different / unique forms of patriotism...

Yeah good explanation.

[Scarlett.]

People also throw all of England together, being from the North, I'm patriotic of the North, we have different values than the Southern end, people from the North feel that we have more in common with Scotland than they do with any Southerners (hence the "take us with you" when Scotland were holding their referendum).

[joeysteele]

People also throw all of England together, being from the North, I'm patriotic of the North, we have different values than the Southern end, people from the North feel that we have more in common with Scotland than they do with any Southerners (hence the "take us with you" when Scotland were holding their referendum).

I agree, I am a Midlander by birth,left there when I went to Uni and stayed further North afterwards.

I find the Northern people do overall it appears hold a connection to Scotland more than the South and that doesn't surprise me.
From attitudes,I really dislike going South now,it is almost like going to another Country rather than when visiting Wales, Scotland The North and even parts of the Midlands too.
I really love the North and feel I can more identify with the values of the North.

Once in that far South of England,I just become dismayed most of the time.
I personally feel totally unable to feel comfortable in or even identify with the South now.

[Greg!]

I'm really patriotic towards Scotland. The only time I'm patriotic about the UK is during Eurovision lmao

[Greg!]

what a great wee point i have added to this debate x

[JoshBB]

I'm somewhat patriotic when Eurovision is on, and I also feel really happy when I see community events with people coming together and having little union jacks everywhere. It's completely innocent and really nice. The only time it becomes unacceptable is when people put down other cultures, religions, and ethnic backgrounds in the name of patriotism.