Labour MP Naz Shah wants Israel put in USA / Ken Livingstone Suspended

[arista]

This was said before she was a MP's
But was debated just now on BBC2HD Daily Politics


[MP Naz Shah endorsed comments suggesting Jews should
be relocated to the US as the anti-Semitism problem in Labour deepens.]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/26/13/338CE87C00000578-3559490-image-m-16_1461674104163.jpg


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/6/16/399132/default/v1/cegrab-20150616-072435-139-1-736x414.jpg
http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02823/John_McDonnell_and_2823147a.jpg


http://news.sky.com/story/1685510/mcdonnells-aide-quits-over-anti-semitic-post


https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f94d387e88683bd4d0dfd81730000084?convert_to_webp=t rue



this is a bit nasty

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Ms Shah claimed her views on Israel have moderated over the last two years."


:laugh2:

[Livia]

Jews have been in Israel for 5000 years, around 4000 years more than Islam has existed. Jewish people believe that Israel was given to them by God as their Promised Land. Good luck with getting them to relocate.

Can you imagine the outcry if Jewish people lobbied to remove Muslims from Israel?

[Kizzy]

What about that JR Hartley quote, is it not apt in this instance?

[joeysteele]

You can make ill advised comments in your life in the past,however this is a sickening comment to have ever made or signed up to, she'd be out the party for me.

[arista]

You can make ill advised comments in your life in the past,however this is a sickening comment to have ever made or signed up to, she'd be out the party for me.



She is staying
but no longer a adviser
so far

[joeysteele]

She is staying
but no longer a adviser
so far

No, she should not stay,not in my view.
She has only sort of apologised after being caught out,a bit hollow for me that.

[kirklancaster]

I also have a great idea - Why not relocate Naz Shan to Pakistan?

[Livia]

What about that JR Hartley quote, is it not apt in this instance?

It was LP Hartley. And no, not at all.

[Livia]

FJgi-Lou1NA

[bots]

She has now been suspended from the labour party

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704

[Crimson Dynamo]

oh dear and there was silly me thinking ukip were the top racist party

:fan:

[joeysteele]

She has now been suspended from the labour party

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704

Good start but for me out altogether is what should be done.

[the truth]

Israel is a disgrace though and needs to be discussed openly. yes there are rights and wrongs on all sides but I do not believe they had the right to reclaim that land 100s of years later. It was always going to lead to disaster

[arista]

She has now been suspended from the labour party

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36148704

Yes it had to happen

[Corbyn FINALLY suspends Muslim Labour MP who said Israel should be
'relocated' to the US as it emerges party spin doctors WATERED DOWN her apology ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561296/Jeremy-Corbyn-brands-Muslim-Labour-MP-suggested-Israel-relocated-offensive-unacceptable-WON-T-kick-party.html#ixzz4733uSg00

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/26/13/338CE87600000578-0-image-m-7_1461673383755.jpg

[Livia]

Israel is a disgrace though and needs to be discussed openly. yes there are rights and wrongs on all sides but I do not believe they had the right to reclaim that land 100s of years later. It was always going to lead to disaster

She wasn't "discussing it openly".

[MTVN]

What about that JR Hartley quote, is it not apt in this instance?

It was LP Hartley. And no, not at all.

Was thinking isn't JR Hartley the fly fishing bloke, what could he have said that was relevant

[the truth]

She wasn't "discussing it openly".

maybe not. its ridiculous that people feel pressured to not be able to speak about this matter. I do think her posts were infantile and theres endless rights and wrongs on all sides but the entire israel project was an absurd disaster from the very start

[Kizzy]

It was LP Hartley. And no, not at all.

I know, I was just seeing if you remembered the old ad. Why not?

[Kizzy]

Was thinking isn't JR Hartley the fly fishing bloke, what could he have said that was relevant

Yep that's the one :laugh: He may know something about baiting.. not more than you obv ;)

[MTVN]

Ken Livingstone getting roasted by Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics about anti-semitism in the Labour party

Great footage of John Mann accusing Red Ken of being a 'Nazi apologist' in the hall outside as well

[arista]

Ken Livingstone getting roasted by Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics about anti-semitism in the Labour party

Great footage of John Mann accusing Red Ken of being a 'Nazi apologist' in the hall outside as well



Yes John Mann attacked him
while he was on LBC radio phone call.
http://news.sky.com/story/1686687/ken-must-go-over-hitler-comment-labour-mps
video as he went into the Westminster TV studios.


[Labour MPs have called for Ken Livingstone to be
suspended from the party after he said that Hitler was a Zionist.
Mr Livingstone also said social media comments posted
by Labour MP Naz Shah suggesting Israel should be
relocated to the US and claiming everything Hitler did was legal
were not "anti-Semitic".
He said there was a "well-orchestrated campaign
by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticised Israeli
policy as anti-Semitic".]

Yes and Ch4HDNews should have more on this

[arista]

[The MP John Mann confronted Mr Livingstone on Thursday morning and
shouted at him that he was a "******* disgrace" and a "Nazi apologist". He has
called for him to go.]


John is in a Rage

[Alf]

Was thinking isn't JR Hartley the fly fishing bloke, what could he have said that was relevant
Yes, advertisement for The Yellow pages. Probably one of the most popular advertisements of it's time,


CeicexenTmU

[arista]

Now SkyNewsHD have said Ken Livingstone
has been suspended

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2015/11/18/430788/default/v1/ken-livingstone-1-736x414.jpg

http://news.sky.com/story/1686687/livingstone-suspended-over-hitler-comments


this was all because
he spoke about Hitler
when asked a Question on BBC Radio London
what a mess

[Crimson Dynamo]

that video of the interview with man is brilliant

Livingstone is a total twat

[joeysteele]

Jeremy Corbyn needs to get hold of this issue and quickly, he cannot be seen as just pussyfooting around on it.

If he fails to wipe out any views like this held by any in the Labour party,that will be the end of his leadership.

Normally I accept Livingstone as a bit of a maverick in politics but on the Daily Politics, he made a poor show of himself and I agree with his suspension.
This MP for Bradford should be thrown out the party.

Look, there is nothing wrong with saying there should be a 2 state solution in Israel/Palestine,I agree with that, there is nothing wrong with attacking an action carried out against the other in the area, there is nothing wrong with even attacking Israel's leaders for their policy.

When however you start suggesting and supporting publicly moving a whole Nation of people to elsewhere in the World, then that is wrong and for me shows a deeper and likely more unsavoury thinking behind it.

She should go and anyone who thinks like her should as well.

[arista]

that video of the interview with man is brilliant

Livingstone is a total twat


Its all a
Right Muddle LT

[arista]

Now John Mann
is in trouble

[bots]

Jeremy Corbyn needs to get hold of this issue and quickly, he cannot be seen as just pussyfooting around on it.

If he fails to wipe out any views like this held by any in the Labour party,that will be the end of his leadership.

Normally I accept Livingstone as a bit of a maverick in politics but on the Daily Politics, he made a poor show of himself and I agree with his suspension.
This MP for Bradford should be thrown out the party.

Look, there is nothing wrong with saying there should be a 2 state solution in Israel/Palestine,I agree with that, there is nothing wrong with attacking an action carried out against the other in the area, there is nothing wrong with even attacking Israel's leaders for their policy.

When however you start suggesting and supporting publicly moving a whole Nation of people to elsewhere in the World, then that is wrong and for me shows a deeper and likely more unsavoury thinking behind it.

She should go and anyone who thinks like her should as well.

Jeremy is in a bit of a pickle, because I believe he actually sympathises with that anti-Semitic view. There is going to come a point where the finger will be pointed directly at him. I don't think all are anti-Semitic, but more than a few jumped on the Palestinian bandwagon because it fitted in with their anti- Israeli views as there has been a less than rational full on support for the Palestinians

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/28/15/339EB5EC00000578-3563223-image-m-3_1461853254496.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/28/12/339E136100000578-3563223-image-a-49_1461843822713.jpg
No Ken
LBC lost the clear signal.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/28/12/339E137800000578-3563223-image-a-50_1461843830004.jpg
Put your Finger down.


[Suspended by Labour after explosive row which saw him branded a 'Nazi apologist' over
claims Hitler backed moving the Jews to Israel 'before he went mad
and ended up killing six million Jews' ]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3563223/Ken-Livingstone-claims-Hitler-supported-Zionism-supported-moving-Jews-Israel-went-mad-ended-killing-six-million-Jews.html#ixzz478IYXbA9

[Livia]

Jeremy Corbyn needs to get hold of this issue and quickly, he cannot be seen as just pussyfooting around on it.

If he fails to wipe out any views like this held by any in the Labour party,that will be the end of his leadership.

Normally I accept Livingstone as a bit of a maverick in politics but on the Daily Politics, he made a poor show of himself and I agree with his suspension.
This MP for Bradford should be thrown out the party.

Look, there is nothing wrong with saying there should be a 2 state solution in Israel/Palestine,I agree with that, there is nothing wrong with attacking an action carried out against the other in the area, there is nothing wrong with even attacking Israel's leaders for their policy.

When however you start suggesting and supporting publicly moving a whole Nation of people to elsewhere in the World, then that is wrong and for me shows a deeper and likely more unsavoury thinking behind it.

She should go and anyone who thinks like her should as well.

I have to say it's refreshing, the faith you put in Corbyn, Joey. For my money he's just as anti-Semitic as all the leftie arse-kissers who've cozied up to one Muslim despot after another.

Maddeningly, crap likes this really muddies the waters when it comes to a rational discussion about Israel. People need to leave their animosity at the door and sit down together. Outsiders goading the Israelis though, won't help.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/28/13/339E558100000578-3563223-image-a-55_1461846256181.jpg

Go On
Michael Crick of Ch4HD News
get in there

Corbyn: Labour Will Not Tolerate Anti-Semitism
http://news.sky.com/story/1686944/corbyn-labour-will-not-tolerate-anti-semitism

[joeysteele]

I have to say it's refreshing, the faith you put in Corbyn, Joey. For my money he's just as anti-Semitic as all the leftie arse-kissers who've cozied up to one Muslim despot after another.

Maddeningly, crap likes this really muddies the waters when it comes to a rational discussion about Israel. People need to leave their animosity at the door and sit down together. Outsiders goading the Israelis though, won't help.

On the contrary,I actually do not feel as to having much faith in Corbyn on this

Anyone can pay lip service to issues and I have a niggling fear that is all he wants to do on this issue.
If it turns out to be the case I will likely be as eager as others to see a change of leadership.

I was watching back some old extracts from Labour party conferences and came across Neil Kinnock's speech against so called militants.
hat was fierce and forceful and in my view meant, not this pussyfooting about I am seeing from Jeremy Corbyn on this.

This is an issue that riles me,whatever the rights and wrongs of Israel and what they do, they are surrounded as a Nation by other totally hostile Nations against them.
They virtually have be on guard all the time.

What they certainly do not need is from 'friendly' nations, pathetic people like this Bradford MP and then Livingstone sort of defending her making such statements as she shared and clearly agreed with.
Also her apology after being found out and the uproar in play,does not impress me, she should have apologised to the 'whole state of Israel' but then also stood down as an MP too.

If, as has been said her doing this had been known at her selection process, then she would not have been likely chosen to stand for to be an MP,well no difference for me, now it is known, she should not remain an MP pure and simple and she would be out of the whole Party for me.

This has to dealt with and anyone rooted out who hold these views and them then kicked out of the Party, they have no place in British politics.
If Corbyn is not really going to take a strong stand and deal with this properly and convincingly then he should hand over to another who can and also someone who has the will to want to as well.

[bots]

On the contrary,I actually do not feel as to having much faith in Corbyn on this

Anyone can pay lip service to issues and I have a niggling fear that is all he wants to do on this issue.
If it turns out to be the case I will likely be as eager as others to see a change of leadership.

I was watching back some old extracts from Labour party conferences and came across Neil Kinnock's speech against so called militants.
hat was fierce and forceful and in my view meant, not this pussyfooting about I am seeing from Jeremy Corbyn on this.

This is an issue that riles me,whatever the rights and wrongs of Israel and what they do, they are surrounded as a Nation by other totally hostile Nations against them.
They virtually have be on guard all the time.

What they certainly do not need is from 'friendly' nations, pathetic people like this Bradford MP and then Livingstone sort of defending her making such statements as she shared and clearly agreed with.
Also her apology after being found out and the uproar in play,does not impress me, she should have apologised to the 'whole state of Israel' but then also stood down as an MP too.

If, as has been said her doing this had been known at her selection process, then she would not have been likely chosen to stand for to be an MP,well no difference for me, now it is known, she should not remain an MP pure and simple and she would be out of the whole Party for me.

This has to dealt with and anyone rooted out who hold these views and them then kicked out of the Party, they have no place in British politics.
If Corbyn is not really going to take a strong stand and deal with this properly and convincingly then he should hand over to another who can and also someone who has the will to want to as well.

i think quite a few of us are making similar observations. Its like a ... if I really have to ... i will take action, rather than conviction that it should be stamped out. Does that make him anti-Semitic in itself? No, but he doesn't actively and passionately disagree with those that most certainly are

[Mystic Mock]

oh dear and there was silly me thinking ukip were the top racist party

:fan:

They wasn't in front whilst the BNP are around.:joker:

But this MP should be ashamed of herself, she wouldn't like it if someone said for her to relocate to whatever country her family originates from would she?

The simple solution would be for Israel and Palestine to have half the land each instead of this childish squabbles that are getting their innocent civilians killed just because they're too proud to apologise to each other.

This feud is simply one of the most pathetic traits that Human kind display over and over again.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/28/461986/default/v2/metro-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/28/461990/default/v1/telegraph-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/28/461993/default/v1/guardian-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/28/461994/default/v1/times-1-992x558.jpg

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/4/28/462009/default/v1/mirror-1-992x558.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

Ken Livingstone has been suspended by the Labour Party over comments he made while defending an MP at the centre of an anti-Semitism row.

The ex-London mayor will be investigated for "bringing the party into disrepute".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36160135

[joeysteele]

i think quite a few of us are making similar observations. Its like a ... if I really have to ... i will take action, rather than conviction that it should be stamped out. Does that make him anti-Semitic in itself? No, but he doesn't actively and passionately disagree with those that most certainly are

Apparently today he intends to say nothing more about it.
Sorry but that astounds me.
As Leader this is so urgent now and a week before elections take place too,either he has an electoral death wish or his heart is not in the fight against this one.
If it is a minority which I firmly believe it is, then it should be very easy to stamp it out
If it could be a growing problem then all the more reason to really grab hold of things now and demand action from all areas of the Party across the board, to identify and root out anyone with these views.

Or pay a very big price for allowing it to be there in any form in the first place.
Constituency members and the secretaries of same as also constituency wards also need to double check the people they have selected as candidates and also their membership too.

There should be no place for even one of anyone with such views in the Labour party or any credible UK party either for that matter, let alone several.
This is one issue that really does have to be strongly and instantly led by Jeremy Corbyn in clearing it out.

If he fails to rise to this challenge then he will warrant losing the support he has across the Party as to his leadership and I feel fairly sure now he will lose it too if he continues to just appear to be paying lip service to the issue.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ken is brilliant tho, so an anti-Semitic row breaks out in the labour party - well what would be the worst thing you could possibly say to fan the flames?

er..talk about Hitler?

yes brilliant, anything else

how about claim me was in fact a Zionist?

wtf, are you mental?


No, lets run it up the flagpole and see who salutes?


ok, but there is going to be a sh1tstorm

nah, its all good...

:joker:

[Livia]

On the contrary,I actually do not feel as to having much faith in Corbyn on this

Anyone can pay lip service to issues and I have a niggling fear that is all he wants to do on this issue.
If it turns out to be the case I will likely be as eager as others to see a change of leadership.

I was watching back some old extracts from Labour party conferences and came across Neil Kinnock's speech against so called militants.
hat was fierce and forceful and in my view meant, not this pussyfooting about I am seeing from Jeremy Corbyn on this.

This is an issue that riles me,whatever the rights and wrongs of Israel and what they do, they are surrounded as a Nation by other totally hostile Nations against them.
They virtually have be on guard all the time.

What they certainly do not need is from 'friendly' nations, pathetic people like this Bradford MP and then Livingstone sort of defending her making such statements as she shared and clearly agreed with.
Also her apology after being found out and the uproar in play,does not impress me, she should have apologised to the 'whole state of Israel' but then also stood down as an MP too.

If, as has been said her doing this had been known at her selection process, then she would not have been likely chosen to stand for to be an MP,well no difference for me, now it is known, she should not remain an MP pure and simple and she would be out of the whole Party for me.

This has to dealt with and anyone rooted out who hold these views and them then kicked out of the Party, they have no place in British politics.
If Corbyn is not really going to take a strong stand and deal with this properly and convincingly then he should hand over to another who can and also someone who has the will to want to as well.

I see I went off half-cocked in my earlier post to you, joey. I completely agree with your stance on this.

[Mystic Mock]

This guy tried to defend the Rioters in the London Riots so his not exactly the height of morality is he?

[arista]

DR

Its on this double header thread

[DemolitionRed]

We can hardly call Corbyn anti-Semitic when he refuses to tolerate any form of racism within The Labour Party. Criticising a country that has committed human rights abuses (including Israel ) is totally fine!

The fact that Corbyn has suspended Ken Livingstone and made the point very clearly that there is no place for anti-Semitism in the Labour party is a big plus for me, anti-Semitism on the Left needs to be challenged instead of muddling it up with anti-Israel and using that as a cloak to hide behind.

[Beso]

I bet the IRA sympathiser is hurriedly scouring his past correspondence on such issues repeatedly visiting the shredding machine.

[joeysteele]

We can hardly call Corbyn anti-Semitic when he refuses to tolerate any form of racism within The Labour Party. Criticising a country that has committed human rights abuses (including Israel ) is totally fine!

The fact that Corbyn has suspended Ken Livingstone and made the point very clearly that there is no place for anti-Semitism in the Labour party is a big plus for me, anti-Semitism on the Left needs to be challenged instead of muddling it up with anti-Israel and using that as a cloak to hide behind.

I really think he is doing himself no great favours with his handling of this,imagine what he would be saying to any other party leader who decided on such a riding important issue,that they were not even going to discuss it today.

After the problems yesterday with John Mann and Ken Livingstone the party was left with little option after such a public airing but I am not at all of the view that Corbyn wanted him suspended.
If he handles this issue really wrong I will add my voice in Labour to maybe look at a change of Leader.
With the Conservatives in such a mess themselves,it is near soul destroying seeing the mess Labour has got itself into now and its sad for politics in the UK too.

[DemolitionRed]

I really think he is doing himself no great favours with his handling of this,imagine why he would be saying to any other party leader who decided on such a riding important issue,that they were not even going to discuss it today.

After the problems yesterday with John Mann and Ken Livingstone the party was left with little option after such a public airing but I am not at all of the view that Corbyn wanted him suspended.
If he handles this issue really wrong I will add my voice in Labour to maybe look at a change of Leader.
With the Conservatives in such a mess themselves,it is near soul destroying seeing the mess Labour has got itself into now and its sad for politics in the UK too.

Allow me to be straight on how I feel about this....Anti Semitism or any other form of racism has no place within The Labour Party. If people do or say racist things then this needs to be dealt with. But then lets look at this in the cold light of day-lets put all of this into little boxes, little boxes which we can pull cards out to hate. We have a box for refugees, a box for asylum seekers, a box for Muslims, we used to have a box for Jews but that made us feel uncomfortable so we crossed out the word Jew on the front and wrote Israel over the top and now we can continue to pull the card out. Anti Semitism within the Labour party is a real problem, just as Islamophobia within the Conservative party is a real problem; I'm well aware of that.

But the silver lining is, Jeremy Corbyn is not anti-Semitic. When he referred to others as "our friends", that isn't anti-Semitic but the sort of words used by a knowing and wise diplomat and if you really want peace you can't get it by insulting others, whether you agree with them or not. It's still the case that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[arista]

Corbyn Launches Anti-Semitism Action Plan

http://news.sky.com/story/1687681/corbyn-launches-anti-semitism-action-plan

[joeysteele]

Corbyn Launches Anti-Semitism Action Plan

http://news.sky.com/story/1687681/corbyn-launches-anti-semitism-action-plan

This has to be got right.

[bots]

Its so obvious, to me anyway, that he is only doing this because he has been told to

[Livia]

These are the very first people to cry foul if the Muslim community is accused of sympathising with terrorists. It's fine though, to insult the Jewish community because they don't agree with Israel. The Left have always been anti-Semitic and it's frankly staggered me that Jews have contributed to their party funds. I hope that's about to end for good.

worldwide Anti-Semitism is rife and it has been forever. The venom against Israel is just a convenient excuse for some people to hate Jews. What's more the ignorance and the denial about anti-Semitism is staggering. I've said this before I know, but even on this forum I've been told that people can't be racist about Jews because we own all the banks... and that any racism we might encounter is sufferable because we own Hollywood - and this was told to me by someone moaning about racism! These brain-dead opinions are upheld and encouraged by many on the Left.

[joeysteele]

I hope any 'genuine' wrong views here by any in the party are dealt with and eradicated.

I now have many friends and indeed fellow Labour party members,who are on the far left as a political term, who are furious and appalled at the comments supported by that MP and would be against anyone else who really held those views too.
However not liking Israel's policies or its govt or even some individuals from Israel is not wrong.
A massive disservice is done to the masses of decent people on the left who equally hate such views as anyone else in the political spectrum may do.

I am someone who is very pro Israel because I have a god few Jewish friends,oddly enough they do not see any one side as being supporters of anti-semitism,even the ones who vote Conservative said to me last night, they doubt the Labour party is a party rife with same, they feel sure this inquiry will not result in any great findings of racism or anti-semitism.
Although they doubt Corbyns sincerity on this issue.

It is as unhelpful to say the left are anti-semetic and to then give the indication that Labour party is so because of a few mindless wrongly informed and prejudiced individuals.
Like Andy Burnham on Question Time on Thursday,I would along with him if I had any belief at all that the Labour party was rife with these views,I'd leave it tomorrow but I totally believe that is not the case and its not fair either to slate all the left as to this either.

It is not wrong to criticise Israel,a good while back one of my Aunts and her family visited Israel,she was very pro Israel,however she came back sympathising more with the Palestinians than the Israelis.
Although not being against either as peoples.
That does not make her anti Israel or anti-semitic for thinking that,we have to be really careful what we define as it being, no Nation is or should be above criticism for what it does at times.

My own sympathies lie strongly with Israel and I would fight very hard against any prejudice against the Jewish people,I am now on the left of politics myself for want of having to be termed where my leanings now lie.
This is very unsavoury, 'real' anti-semitism is wrong full stop, however genuine grievances as to policies of a Nation and all other justified negative views are not anti-semitism

We need to stamp out anti-semitism wherever it may be and in any political party too but it should not be inflamed and played as a political card to brand all of one side or the other as to the only ones being so.
So I hope for a good outcome to this inquiry,I support who is leading it,I hope anyone who is found to hold these views is dealt with and expelled from the Labour party.

I still think however Corbyn has been pushed to do this,he still seems to be commenting on this in a very half hearted way.
I know that is his style but I have also seen him get really passionate and fired up on things such as nuclear weapons and so, I feel, he needs to get fired up on this and show he will be relentless in removing from the Party, friend or foe, who hold such wrong and unacceptable views.

If he fails here, it will be time for him to go in my view.

[Kizzy]

Is there any evidence that Hitler did actually suggest that (anyone have a copy of mein kampf handy?)
If he did however unsavory it is just a fact, there was no suggesting that anything he did or said subsequently was right.
This infighting is a bit convenient for the tories atm isn't it, Corbyn for me has dealt with it without bluster or arm flailing as is I would have thought, the manner expected of a party leader.

[Livia]

Is there any evidence that Hitler did actually suggest that (anyone have a copy of mein kampf handy?)
If he did however unsavory it is just a fact, there was no suggesting that anything he did or said subsequently was right.
This infighting is a bit convenient for the tories atm isn't it, Corbyn for me has dealt with it without bluster or arm flailing as is I would have thought, the manner expected of a party leader.

The Hitler comment is by the by. The fact is that Livingstone supported and made excuses for Shah, and showed his true feelings - that anti-Semitism is acceptable because of Israel. A convenient excuse. Typical that non-Jews are going to argue the toss over whether Hitler was a Zionist or not. Hitler's initial intentions, whatever they were, were scrubbed out by his orchestration of the Holocaust.

The in-fighting may be convenient for the Tories but that isn't the issue. And to suggest it is just deflects the question. Because it happened. And the fact it happened is testament to the fact that the Left has been exposed as having a wide anti-Semitic element.

I'm interested but not surprised that some non-Jews on the Left seem to find Corbyn's handling of this acceptable. Perhaps Jews can wait for the nod in future... if gentiles aren't offended, then we won't be either.

[Kizzy]

The Hitler comment is by the by. The fact is that Livingstone supported and made excuses for Shah, and showed his true feelings - that anti-Semitism is acceptable because of Israel. A convenient excuse. Typical that non-Jews are going to argue the toss over whether Hitler was a Zionist or not. Hitler's initial intentions, whatever they were, were scrubbed out by his orchestration of the Holocaust.

The in-fighting may be convenient for the Tories but that isn't the issue. And to suggest it is just deflects the question. Because it happened. And the fact it happened is testament to the fact that the Left has been exposed as having a wide anti-Semitic element.

I'm interested but not surprised that some non-Jews on the Left seem to find Corbyn's handling of this acceptable. Perhaps Jews can wait for the nod in future... if gentiles aren't offended, then we won't be either.

It's a headline grabbing by the by. Anti semitism is not acceptable, that has been made clear. To suggest non Jews on the left are waiting for a sign to reveal some dormant prejudice is a reach.
I agree with Livingstone it's a blairite smear, the tories must be relieved after the month they've had, tax scandals, election fixing allegations, workfare is a human rights violation... what a stroke of luck this is.

[DemolitionRed]

These are the very first people to cry foul if the Muslim community is accused of sympathising with terrorists. It's fine though, to insult the Jewish community because they don't agree with Israel. The Left have always been anti-Semitic and it's frankly staggered me that Jews have contributed to their party funds. I hope that's about to end for good.

Its easy to generalize with a sweeping brush-stroke.
If I don't agree with Israel, that doesn't make me anti-Semitic, it just means I disagree against Israel's treatment against the Palestinians. I also disagree with how the Whabbis and Sunni's have treated the Kurds and Shiites in Syria but that doesn't make me Islamophobic and yet strangely enough, I've been outwardly accused on here of supporting terrorism because I don't support the anti-Muslim harder liners.


worldwide Anti-Semitism is rife and it has been forever. The venom against Israel is just a convenient excuse for some people to hate Jews. What's more the ignorance and the denial about anti-Semitism is staggering. I've said this before I know, but even on this forum I've been told that people can't be racist about Jews because we own all the banks... and that any racism we might encounter is sufferable because we own Hollywood - and this was told to me by someone moaning about racism! These brain-dead opinions are upheld and encouraged by many on the Left.

Personally I think the terms used are inherently problematic and a large part of the issue. Criticism of Israel should be just that neither anti Semetic nor, perhaps more importantly anti Zionist. I criticise the policies of many countries. I criticise aspects of American policy but I am not anti- Americans. I criticise a lot of British policy but I'm not Anti- British.

Challenging anti-Semitism has been hard because then people do pull out the Palestine card and hide behind that and claim they are just anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic. This is further complicated because some of them are anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic, but some of them are anti-Israel and anti-Semitic and it's become a good disguise to hide behind. Unfortunately, criticism of Israel and anti- Semitism appear to bleed together and therefore, those of us who don't agree with Israeli policy are hugely wary of being misjudged.

[DemolitionRed]

Here are the transcripts of Livingstone's recent interviews, including with Vanessa Feltz.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-transcript-of-ken-livingstones-interviews-a7005311.html

and I snatched this comment from a friend on FB

"The existence of the Haavara agreement is not in dispute. Holding it up as an example of Hitler supporting Zionism however is a grotesque misrepresentation. Hitler had made it clear in Mein Kampf that he believed Jewish people should be exterminated. At the time of the Haavara agreement /jewish people in Germany were already subject to dreadful discrimination and prejudice. This had resulted in a Jewish boycott of all of Nazi Germany. Many of the Nazis in the top echelon feared this was going to derail their nascent economy and so they came up with the agreement as a means to both rid themselves of some Jews and to try and appease the international community. For the privelege of leaving their homes and friends Jewish people had to pay a large sum of money and give up all their possessions. About 60'000 made it out of Germany this way before it became untenable and the Holocaust began. Hitler's support for the scheme was luke warm at best.

To use the above to describe Hitler as either a Zionist or Zionist supporter is repugnantas Mr. Livingstone, I have no doubt, is well aware. The Haarva agreement has been used for decades to try and paint Jewish people as somehow complicit with the Nazis as opposed to their victims atempting to flee."

[joeysteele]

Well across the board,this issue also may be of benefit long term and short term for the Labour party.
I have no doubt there will be some expulsions from the party after this investigation,very small because I have no belief at all that there are a really high number of people with anti-semitic views in the party anyway.
Also Labour will have been one party that acted on the issue and investigated it.

Long term that will be of benefit to the Party, even if Corbyn remains as leader,if he does, I cannot see any way that he will remain leader for the 2020 election but not because he holds any anti-semitic leanings, which I do not think he does but he has not handled this that well and forceful enough for me.

However, short term too, if Labour do badly in this weeks elections,they can blame Livingstone and this uproar for any poorer showing than may have been.

For me however,enough has been done for now, the MP is suspended and dropping her may well be the result of his inquiry,Livingstone has been out of the party before and he should be again now for his comments last week,I think that will happen too.
Then let's see what this inquiry brings out and not brand all in Labour,particularly on the left, as some are trying to do,as near all holding likely anti-semitic views.
Prejudice against the left or even the right is as bad as any other prejudice,in my view.

Also I hope some better outline is brought in as to where justified commenting and criticism of Israel actually really crosses into being the abhorrent views as to the heading of this thread.
Just because some criticise Israel does not mean those people are anti Jewish at all and trying to inflame any criticism into being anti-semitic does a massive disservice to the whole issue.

I am firm supporter of the Israeli Nation,I do not agree with all it does and I believe in the two state solution and just because I am of left leaning politics now, I take great offence at being branded as maybe holding any anti-semitic views just because I am on the left.
Also being firm here too, all the people I have come to know on the left, have no such views either.

[bots]

The same arguments exist when dealing with any form of racism Joey, its very easy to throw in the racism card when it is just fundamental criticism or disagreement, and nothing whatsoever to do with racism.

I'm not as optimistic as you. With the likes of Diane Abbot entering the debate, I'm seeing a pattern of like minded individuals rushing to the defense of their pals. The very group that is being accused of being anti-Semitic is the group Corbyn is most closely associated with. I hold no value in investigations and inquiries I'm afraid, and I've also never had anything but contempt for the inquiry chair. I think the whole thing sucks.

[Livia]

It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.

[joeysteele]

It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.

I didn't say the left need new outlines as to where the crossover from justified criticism should be seen as being anti semitic.
I meant that for all because one of the questions I have been asked over this week is just what can people say and not say.

I was asked a question I could not answer, which was how can the holocaust not be talked about ad not bring in the name of Hitler to the issue.would anyone now even just mentioning his name be seen as a possible anti semitic.

Also has anyone any real proof at all too that Corbyn has shown himself by what he has said to be anti-semitic and what has he done that could be proven to be an anti-semitic act.

People say and mix with all kinds of people and while some of them may be unsavoury.it doesn't mean people share their views.

Or is there an additional valid point here that this is further just to get at Corbyn because some people don't like him at all.
Guilt by association can be a dangerous road and views do change and also sometimes we do have to talk to people we would rather not to reach any compromise or settlement.

As in the past Israeli govts for a time spoke to Arafat and in fact both were at the white house in the USA.
People are confused by this whole issue, I have faith in the Charabati led inquiry, at least there is one set up at the very least.

At this time, that MP was wrong absolutely and for me should not be in Parliament ad Livingstone, while always controversial was wrong in his defence of her.
Now if any others are rooted out as having any similar views as the MP, then they too should be removed from the party.

However the left are only moaning at the new undercurrent that seems to be coming in that the vast majority of decent Labour members and voters feel some are branding them with the same views as that MP and that should be unacceptable to brand whole groups of people that way just as it should to be anti Jewish too.
Any prejudice there 'may, I say 'may' be,will not get eradicated by then playing a new prejudice card against whole other groups of people.
In fact that is more likely to inflame things and make things far worse.

[bots]

It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.

One has to ask why they need inquiries or guidelines. Prejudice and racism are defined. Are they suggesting that Jewish people are a special case where either rules need to be more or less strict? Does that mean that every single group then needs its own set of guidelines? :laugh: The whole thing just doesn't make sense, and doesn't ring true for me. If ever there was a lets let some time go by ploy and do some pen pushing, going through the motions, this is it.

If someone speaks with prejudice or whatever, its simple ... they should be expelled from the party. Full stop.

[Livia]

One has to ask why they need inquiries or guidelines. Prejudice and racism are defined. Are they suggesting that Jewish people are a special case where either rules need to be more or less strict? Does that mean that every single group then needs its own set of guidelines? :laugh: The whole thing just doesn't make sense, and doesn't ring true for me. If ever there was a lets let some time go by ploy and do some pen pushing, going through the motions, this is it.

If someone speaks with prejudice or whatever, its simple ... they should be expelled from the party. Full stop.

I agree. Whoever the target, whatever the party... they should be expelled.

[joeysteele]

I understand this inquiry will also take in account any other racism too.

I want to belong to an anti-semitic and anti racism party no matter who the racism is directed at.
Had labour not launched this inquiry, it would now be splashed all over the front pages and have the PM standing up at PMQs saying they refused to do one.
It is right to have it, jus as it is right the Conservative party has an inquiry ongoing as to its bullying issue and complaints.

I don't think there is any even fair number of people to find in Labour as to this issue and that should be rightly so.
I for one would leave the party if it was found to be a really growing problem,none of these people have any place in any credible party in the UK.

However the minds of the Jewish community have to be settled on this one,so hope for a good outcome of this in the end and clearer way forward, no matter what party Jewish citizens choose to vote for.
They have had far more than enough to have to bear from the past,they should not be facing any prejudice from anyone and certainly not in the UK from any political mainstream party.

[DemolitionRed]

And should we also settle the minds of the Muslim communities in Britain. Should we be investigating the Conservative party or UKIP for anti-Islamic bigotry. Should we be challenging channel 4 for producing programmes like, "What British Muslims really think" and "The Jihadist next door"?

[joeysteele]

I actually think a full inquiry across the board into all parties would be a positive thing,lets get a clean slate for them all and start again, outlining in the strongest terms for all, what is acceptable terminology and what will not be tolerated full stop.

It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.

[bots]

It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.

That's what I think, which is why I believe the inquiry to be a smokescreen and completely unnecessary. We all know what prejudice is. There is no room for prejudice of any sort in British society, so if an MP, a representative of the people, doesn't live up to the same standard, they should be booted out.

[joeysteele]

That's what I think, which is why I believe the inquiry to be a smokescreen and completely unnecessary. We all know what prejudice is. There is no room for prejudice of any sort in British society, so if an MP, a representative of the people, doesn't live up to the same standard, they should be booted out.

Right, you have convinced me,I agree.
Well done.

[Kizzy]

Andrew torybot Marr ( who else) badgering Diane Abbott

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/diane-abbott-labour-antisemitism-problem-smears-ken-livingstone-len-mccluskey-a7008746.html

[joeysteele]

Andrew torybot Marr ( who else) badgering Diane Abbott

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/diane-abbott-labour-antisemitism-problem-smears-ken-livingstone-len-mccluskey-a7008746.html

Actually I watched this and I was more furious at his inference that Labour members were anti-semitic,I was really glad Diane pulled him up on that.
Diane Abbott is well able to stand up for herself and did so here.

This was a shocking interview by his standards and really I find he has lost a lot of credibility as to his interviews not just with Labour politicians but even Conservative ones a times.

I was really annoyed at him this morning and thought the tone of his inferences to Labour MPs and members really distasteful to say the least..

Maybe he is another who is past his sell by date now like David Dimbleby on Question Time is.

[MTVN]

Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.

[joeysteele]

Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.

There were many things at UNI that I never got involved in,then I was a Conservative more than likely.
However students are often a law to themselves.

The inquiry is to 'see' if there are more than the handful that has been shown and exposed over the last few weeks of which only a few have had to be dealt with by suspension and further inquiry.

If we are going to start rounding up students for their oddball views at times then parties are going to be kept really busy.

Our own PM at present was part of and supported a movement at his UNI which called for Nelson Mandela to be hung.
If this inquiry uncovers any more that are proven to be anti-semitic then they will have to be dealt with and expelled from the party, 'if' that is there are any more hence the working of this inquiry.

However this interview of Marr this morning got me really angry because to me he inferred this was rife among the left and particularly as to Labour.perhaps he should wait like the rest of us for the inquiry to be concluded first before branding all the same.
As a labour party member I took strong offence at his line today, I felt it crossed a line in interviewing too.

Personally from my view of Labour and being a member too, I doubt this inquiry will find much in the way as genuine anti-semitism, because I do not think it is genuinely there to find really.

[smudgie]

Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.

Not a good idea to bring Diane Abbott to fight your corner.
Her head is stuck that far up her own backside she can't see daylight, never mind a point of view.
Contradicting herself once again.

[bots]

There were many things at UNI that I never got involved in,then I was a Conservative more than likely.
However students are often a law to themselves.

The inquiry is to 'see' if there are more than the handful that has been shown and exposed over the last few weeks of which only a few have had to be dealt with by suspension and further inquiry.

If we are going to start rounding up students for their oddball views at times then parties are going to be kept really busy.

Our own PM at present was part of and supported a movement at his UNI which called for Nelson Mandela to be hung.
If this inquiry uncovers any more that are proven to be anti-semitic then they will have to be dealt with and expelled from the party, 'if' that is there are any more hence the working of this inquiry.

However this interview of Marr this morning got me really angry because to me he inferred this was rife among the left and particularly as to Labour.perhaps he should wait like the rest of us for the inquiry to be concluded first before branding all the same.
As a labour party member I took strong offence at his line today, I felt it crossed a line in interviewing too.

Personally from my view of Labour and being a member too, I doubt this inquiry will find much in the way as genuine anti-semitism, because I do not think it is genuinely there to find really.


Marr wasn't making his comments from a place of ignorance. He has been close to MP's for many, many years. Its his job to provoke reaction and he has clearly done it. I have a lot of time for Marr, if he is ruffling feathers, there will be good reason for it

[DemolitionRed]

I actually think a full inquiry across the board into all parties would be a positive thing,lets get a clean slate for them all and start again, outlining in the strongest terms for all, what is acceptable terminology and what will not be tolerated full stop.

It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.

I'm up for that Joey.

[Kizzy]

Not a good idea to bring Diane Abbott to fight your corner.
Her head is stuck that far up her own backside she can't see daylight, never mind a point of view.
Contradicting herself once again.

Why is that then who would you have preferred, John Mann? This is all clever deflection, look at the recent comments made by Boris Johnson towards the president of the USA are they having an inquiry into that?

[Kizzy]

Marr wasn't making his comments from a place of ignorance. He has been close to MP's for many, many years. Its his job to provoke reaction and he has clearly done it. I have a lot of time for Marr, if he is ruffling feathers, there will be good reason for it

He's a tory stooge, that wasn't ruffling feathers that was an out and out attack, part of operation oust corbyn.

[joeysteele]

Marr wasn't making his comments from a place of ignorance. He has been close to MP's for many, many years. Its his job to provoke reaction and he has clearly done it. I have a lot of time for Marr, if he is ruffling feathers, there will be good reason for it

I used to enjoy Marr a lot,not this week and not only in talking to Labour politicians either.

I think in interviewing you have to be really balanced and careful not to group all members of a party together and more to the point make general judgements as to a whole party of members.

I felt he grouped all Labour party members together here and crossed a line,just as those saying the left, not some of the left but the whole left are making the same mistake,wile of course ignoring past racism of some of the right.

I do not believe in generalising and grouping together everyone on one side or the other when any controversy rears its head.
So for me Marr crossed a line,whether people like Diane Abbott or not,she went on the programme and for me the one thing she was right on, was to challenge him at his inference that all Labour members have a problem with antisemitism, that is a disgrace.

Oddly enough I too have Jewish friends,their MUM makes in my view the most fantastic cheese straws and while most of them do not vote Labour,even they see a problem with Livingstone and the MP Shah,not however with the whole left of Labour or indeed the whole left of politics.
The few who were going to vote Labour are still going to on Thursday as they disagree that antisemitism is a big problem in the party.

Diane fell down trying to in any way justify Livingstone's comments the way he put them,he has been around a long time, maybe too long ad should know what wording to use so no offence is caused to Jews or anyone else.
The MP as I have said, this was not a whim while a teenager, this was in 2014, the year before she was likely selected to stand as an MP.
No excuses fro her and Livingstone at all in my book,or anyone else this inquiry may root out and find have made or shared any such views.

However as in all prejudice and racism,things have to be taken in full context and not just brand anyone who disagrees with ISRAEL as being antisemitic, even many citizens of Israel are against their govts actions at times and even most of the time.

However I do now feel some of the media and parts of the Labour party are going to use this to discredit all they can Corbyn's leadership.
I still say all parties need a rooting out of any in a small part admittedly,racism or prejudice in their parties,none are whiter that white,the Conservatives party in London where a good number are dismayed at the tones in Zac Goldsmiths campaign, should have questions to answer too as to their real thinking.
UKIP too have had issues with their ranks as indeed other parties with isolated incidents have as well

Labour has acted, I agree with you this inquiry may end up being worthless but I also think that will be the case as much as because there is probably very little of substance to be found as to genuine anti-semitism in the party as anything else.

Wrong in my view to term the whole left of a party as likely being antisemitic and that as now someone more on the left than the right as to myself, was came across from Marr in his interviewing yesterday morning.
Unnecessary and unacceptable to generalise that way and he had to be pushed to make any kind of backing down on that by Diane Abbott too when she challenged him on that.

It never helps to inflame an unsavoury situation by then turning personal prejudice onto whole groups of other people as some are trying to achieve as to all on the left of politics.
They do not say 'some on the left'. they say 'the left',inferring the lot of them whoever they are,well there are as many really decent and people against any prejudice and racism on the left just as there will be on the right.

To use any tense and delicate scenario to spout that prejudice is as wrong as any other prejudice in my view anyway.

[Kizzy]

“The left needs to root out anti-Semitism in its ranks and the right needs to weed out its Islamophobes... Dog-whistle nasty politics is damaging the UK."

Comment by Baroness Warsi on Zac Goldsmiths article.

Where's the inquiry?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/zac-goldsmith-london-mayor-campaign-sadiq-khan-baroness-warsi-a7009126.html

[arista]

Today
A Labour councillor has been suspended for posting comments suggesting Israel should be relocated to the US.

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/2/462618/default/v1/ilyasaziz-1-589x442.jpeg
Labour councillor Ilyas Aziz

http://news.sky.com/story/1688489/anti-semitism-row-now-councillor-suspended

[DemolitionRed]

Today
A Labour councillor has been suspended for posting comments suggesting Israel should be relocated to the US.


That's old news arista and one of the things that started all of this.

[arista]

Anti-Semitism Row: Now Two Councillors Suspended
http://news.sky.com/story/1688489/anti-semitism-row-now-two-councillors-suspended

[smudgie]

Oh dear..it is all getting rather messy.
All these pesky councillors etc playing silly beggars on Twitter etc.
Still, it's only 14 or 15 in the past 4 months, heaven forbid if everyone's Twitter account gets checked over.

[joeysteele]

Oh dear..it is all getting rather messy.
All these pesky councillors etc playing silly beggars on Twitter etc.
Still, it's only 14 or 15 in the past 4 months, heaven forbid if everyone's Twitter account gets checked over.

With respect though smudgie,even if it ran to hundreds,which I firmly believe it will never do,hundreds out of hundreds of thousands of even just alone Labour members,that is still a tiny minority.
Hardly an epidemic of a problem and easily eradicated as to that minority.

I am also pretty sure that checking the twitter and facebook accounts of all members of 'all' other parties too,may also bring some further probably unsavoury and surprising but again, 'tiny minority' of negative results.

[smudgie]

With respect though smudgie,even if it ran to hundreds,which I firmly believe it will never do,hundreds out of hundreds of thousands of even just alone Labour members,that is still a tiny minority.
Hardly an epidemic of a problem and easily eradicated as to that minority.

I am also pretty sure that checking the twitter and facebook accounts of all members of 'all' other parties too,may also bring some further probably unsavoury and surprising but again, 'tiny minority' of negative results.

I would advise all politicians and. Councillors to give Twitter a wide berth, you never know when something can come back and bite you.

[joeysteele]

I would advise all politicians and. Councillors to give Twitter a wide berth, you never know when something can come back and bite you.

You are right again,I would add facebook to that too.

[bots]

I don't think its too much to ask of our MP's that they behave in a respectful way, for me that's the crux of the matter. We can all lose our rag from time to time, there is no need to write every notion that enters your head on social media ... its crazy :laugh:

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2016/5/2/462674/default/v1/tel-1-750x563.jpg


Now its 50 Suspended

[DemolitionRed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/labour-has-secretly-suspended-50-members-for-anti-semitic-and-ra/

[bots]

Now its 50 Suspended

For an organisation that was supposed to champion anti-discrimination and equal rights, that's a substantial number

[joeysteele]

'IF' true, 50 out of hundreds of thousands is really next to nothing and also wait and see, they have bee suspended, that does not yet mean there is anything proven as to being anti-semitic,if there is, it will be investigated and they will be gone.
Any that are actually 'proven' to have been anti-semitic will have to go for good.

I say again, wait and see because it now seems like we are heading into very dangerous waters where anyone who says something about an Islamist Country that is negative is is committing prejudice and anyone against Israel is anti-semitic.

We really make great rods for own backs if we cannot define the difference and end up erring taking action against anyone just expressing a view.

How odd it is not wrong however to label and inflame suspicion and dislike against a democratically elected leader of a party,some of his Cabinet, a legitimate section of politics in the UK re-the left and part members as either red nazis or supporters of same,anti Jewish and supporters of terrorists.
That terminology can be perfectly acceptable,not so, not in any shape or form for me it isn't.

The calculator assessing 50 out of at least hundreds of thousands would have a likely load of noughts after the point to even register a figure of any even miniscule amount.

[bots]

'IF' true, 50 out of hundreds of thousands is really next to nothing and also wait and see, they have bee suspended, that does not yet mean there is anything proven as to being anti-semitic,if there is, it will be investigated and they will be gone.
Any that are actually 'proven' to have been anti-semitic will have to go for good.

I say again, wait and see because it now seems like we are heading into very dangerous waters where anyone who says something about an Islamist Country that is negative is is committing prejudice and anyone against Israel is anti-semitic.

We really make great rods for own backs if we cannot define the difference and end up erring taking action against anyone just expressing a view.

How odd it is not wrong however to label and inflame suspicion and dislike against a democratically elected leader of a party,some of his Cabinet, a legitimate section of politics in the UK re-the left and part members as either red nazis or supporters of same,anti Jewish and supporters of terrorists.
That terminology can be perfectly acceptable,not so, not in any shape or form for me it isn't.

The calculator assessing 50 out of at least hundreds of thousands would have a likely load of noughts after the point to even register a figure of any even miniscule amount.

Except its not 50 out of hundreds of thousands, its 50 out of those with active job roles within the party. If it was 50 out of the total of labour MP's ... it would be a hell of a lot.

I do agree that we are in danger again of political correctness going mad, but labour set themselves up for this by taking the higher PC ground in the first place. One can't force standards on others and then not follow it yourselves. That's why its a real problem for the Labour party. What this is highlighting is that people are human. They say things from time to time that aren't acceptable. Does that make someone a bad person, no, not unless its persistent and partnered with hate. Maybe, just maybe, this will bring back a bit of common sense to the whole issue.

[DemolitionRed]

The left is no more or less anti-Semitic than any other section of society. Whilst I agree that such behaviour should be challenged wherever it rears its ugly head, why now... just days before the elections?

Because despite all their efforts, the right wing media are looking at being proved massively wrong on Thursday as Corbyn's popularity energises the Labour party for the first time in a generation, so this issue has been shoved in everyone's faces as a final last desperate attempt at smearing a party which has less racism all round than the Tories.

[MTVN]

The left is no more or less anti-Semitic than any other section of society. Whilst I agree that such behaviour should be challenged wherever it rears its ugly head, why now... just days before the elections?

Because despite all their efforts, the right wing media are looking at being proved massively wrong on Thursday as Corbyn's popularity energises the Labour party for the first time in a generation, so this issue has been shoved in everyone's faces as a final last desperate attempt at smearing a party which has less racism all round than the Tories.

That's not true at all though - Labour are going to have a disaster in Thursday's polls. They're going to lose huge numbers of seats in England and Wales and they're even at risk of falling to 3rd in Scotland behind the Tories - that's unprecedented. And all after the Corbynites said that he would win Scotland back for Labour!

The only success for Labour is going to be Sadiq Khan's likely victory in London which will be a nice symbolic win to calm some of the negative headlines but make no mistake that Thursday is not going to be a good night for the Labour party.

[Kizzy]

Except its not 50 out of hundreds of thousands, its 50 out of those with active job roles within the party. If it was 50 out of the total of labour MP's ... it would be a hell of a lot.

I do agree that we are in danger again of political correctness going mad, but labour set themselves up for this by taking the higher PC ground in the first place. One can't force standards on others and then not follow it yourselves. That's why its a real problem for the Labour party. What this is highlighting is that people are human. They say things from time to time that aren't acceptable. Does that make someone a bad person, no, not unless its persistent and partnered with hate. Maybe, just maybe, this will bring back a bit of common sense to the whole issue.

Nope, just party members.
It could well be a few of the tories that paid their £3 to vote Corbyn in?

[Livia]

That's not true at all though - Labour are going to have a disaster in Thursday's polls. They're going to lose huge numbers of seats in England and Wales and they're even at risk of falling to 3rd in Scotland behind the Tories - that's unprecedented. And all after the Corbynites said that he would win Scotland back for Labour!

The only success for Labour is going to be Sadiq Khan's likely victory in London which will be a nice symbolic win to calm some of the negative headlines but make no mistake that Thursday is not going to be a good night for the Labour party.

So true... let's all meet back here on Friday to look at their losses.

I agree about Sadiq Khan. I also agree with the comments he made about Corbyn over the whole anti-Semitism question. He shows up the old guard to be the bigots they are.

[bots]

Nope, just party members.
It could well be a few of the tories that paid their £3 to vote Corbyn in?

lol, again the inference toward the Tory party, I think you need to remove some blinkers. Its clearly related to active labour party members.

[joeysteele]

The left is no more or less anti-Semitic than any other section of society. Whilst I agree that such behaviour should be challenged wherever it rears its ugly head, why now... just days before the elections?

Because despite all their efforts, the right wing media are looking at being proved massively wrong on Thursday as Corbyn's popularity energises the Labour party for the first time in a generation, so this issue has been shoved in everyone's faces as a final last desperate attempt at smearing a party which has less racism all round than the Tories.

The left is not as you say any more anti-semitic just as the right are not racist,some on the left may be so and some on the right may be deemed racist but to term the whole of one section with inflammatory and hateful undertones as anti semitic or racist.anti Jewish or being red nazis has no place and should have no place in the UK in my view.

Where there are any they need to be found and removed, that has been the problem of all parties that they fail to check with the fullest scrutiny those they select as candidates to represent them.
There is the added problem too of the diverse cultures in the UK now too,more and more and rightly so, are being chosen from other cultures than just from the former UK culture to stand for election.

Differing cultures will view the World and other Countries of the World not the same at times as the UK generally would.
They will have different grievances with some areas of the World than we have.

That is why,if little else comes from this investigation,some newer guidelines on terminology that is not in any way acceptable should be made.
Obviously with new strict enforcement of same to those seeking election to any office in the UK.
Also yes, maybe the UK does need some educating as to what is right and wrong on the issue too as it seems even our leaders don't know enough now.

As to the elections this week,well it will be a wonder if many turn out since we could be forgiven for thinking there were none with the EU issue dominating all the news.

However yes,I expect Labour to do less than as well it might have this week.
As for Scotland,there will be no move back to Labour as long as the SNP are as strong as they are at present and with a new possible independence referendum on the horizon if we vote to leave the EU,the SNP will rule supreme.
Even Ruth Davidson,one of the best Conservative leaders in Scotland for ages in my view, has said,Labour has gone over to the SNP and it will take the SNP to start losing support for Labour to come back, but that they will in time.

These elections will I feel start the ball rolling more, even if Khan wins the London Mayor office,to find a way to remove Corbyn.
However many of his policies are right so if that comes about I hope many of his polices remain with any successor.

This anti-semitism issue is what needs sorting out and if bad losses this week make it all the more sure this is done right and thoroughly,then that will be a positive thing.

If however the losses are tolerable and not as bad as everyone who hates Labour is hoping to see,then I will applaud the electorate,the Lib Dems, supported all the cuts to council funding,so why should they fare any better now, the Conservative govt is still hammering councils and even has its own up in arms on several issues.

So UKIP are the likely real beneficiaries as to winning seats from both,we saw the chaos after one UKIP council was elected so fun and games this time round.

The whole state of UK politics is bad,from the electoral system we have right down to how parties conduct themselves,in and out of govt,all of them.
I guess bullying as is being investigated in the Conservative party takes a back seat now and is acceptable over any 'perceived' prejudice of anti-semitism, yet often bullying stems from or even leads to prejudice.

Lets see what happens on Thursday, those who hate Labour will no doubt ring their hands with glee if they do really badly and maybe set out more to label it an anti-semitic party.
Rubbishing the investigation into same while ignoring other faults of the other parties at the same time who will also have their minority problems too as to anti semitism, prejudice and racism.
That is why I think there should now be a full independent scrutiny of all parties and their representation,local or National.

I myself have not found the anti-semitism issue a major issue raised on doorsteps while leafleting and canvassing,however after the general election I take much of what is said there with a pinch of salt now.
So over to the voters now.

The present opinion polls have the Conservatives ahead of Labour by at least 5 or 6 points,so they should do really good in these local elections from the low base the Conservatives and Lib dems fell to last time in 2012.
Wales will I feel see a likely UKIP surge with Labour remaining the largest party however there.

If Labour were not to be the largest party and failed to be able to lead as to governing the assembly in Wales, that will certainly be the time for Corbyn to really assess his position.
There is one way for him not to be elected again and that is if he did not stand for leader again and stood down.
I am a great believer in if someone cannot win voters round,then they need to recognise that and hand over to someone who can.

As to the anti-semitism row,Thursday will decide if the voters think Corbyn has done enough already as to dealing with it or if he has clouded the issue further rather than cleared most of the mist over it.

[Kizzy]

Seems my theory is echoed here,

'Norman G. Finkelstein, the American Jewish author of The Holocaust Industry whose family members were almost all murdered in the Nazi holocaust, also believes it’s time for the media smears on the Labour party to stop. Insisting that the comments made last week by former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone were not antisemitic, he says:

Livingstone maybe wasn’t precise enough, and lacked nuance… [But he] is more or less accurate about this – or, as accurate as might be expected from a politician speaking off the cuff.
He also speaks about the supposed ‘antisemitism crisis’ that the corporate media claims is engulfing the Labour party today:

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the factual situation; instead, a few suspect cases of antisemitism – some real, some contrived – are being exploited for an ulterior political motive… it’s transparently a smear campaign.'

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/03/jewish-author-brilliant-answer-antisemitism-smears/

[Kizzy]

'Accusations of anti-Semitism should never be used as cover for these atrocities, which at their core are based on racist and nationalistic ideologies about the place of Arabs and Palestinians in the HLIP.

At the heart of the anti-Semitism maelstrom engulfing the Labour party, with the enthusiastic participation of the mainstream media, is the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has always taken a strong and principled stance on the rights of Palestinians. It didn’t take long for accusations of anti-Semitism to emerge against him, and when they failed to stick supporters and allies were targeted instead.

In a speech to Friends of Palestine after becoming leader he made two promises. One was that Britain would join 136 other countries (70% of the UN) in recognising Palestine as a sovereign state. Another was that he would change official UK policy towards Israeli settlement in the West Bank, recognising them as illegal under international law.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/05/03/britain-bickers-israel-faces-un-inquiry-torture-palestinians/

[Niamh.]

I've deleted almost 40 posts in here, next time I'm just going to close the thread. Can you all please just try and stick to the topic and not eachother? Thanks.

[arista]

The left is no more or less anti-Semitic than any other section of society. Whilst I agree that such behaviour should be challenged wherever it rears its ugly head, why now... just days before the elections?

Because despite all their efforts, the right wing media are looking at being proved massively wrong on Thursday as Corbyn's popularity energises the Labour party for the first time in a generation, so this issue has been shoved in everyone's faces as a final last desperate attempt at smearing a party which has less racism all round than the Tories.


Sure
but its not Expected within
the all loving Labour Party

[Livia]

Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.

Diane Abbott, the world's most disingenuous woman, demonstrating that Labour are paying lip service, and that's all.

[Kizzy]

It is smear, even the Jewish author whose map triggered the whole issue says it's smear :/

[joeysteele]

The anti-semitism issue itself may not be a smear,there are clearly 2 instances that have been started to be dealt with and which will be looked at further as to if the offending 2 in particular should even remain in the party.
As will be the case for anyone who is found to have 'possibly' anti-semitic views and be then proven to have.

That is the right course of action and everyone should be, and particularly those in public life,be careful of what they say and the terminology they use when saying things too,or what they accuse others of being too, this has to go both ways.

Not every comment unpleasant to the Jewish community is likely to be anti-semitic in fact.
So hopefully too 'real'anti-semitism that wishes the Jews or the Jewish Nation harm will be rooted out if it exists and get eradicated because no one who holds that view should be in any UK party,it would be a pity they were even in the UK at all.

It is not lip service to set up an inquiry and the person chairing it is formidable,she will not brush things under any carpets for sure.
If any evidence is there to find and is found, then the judgement of this inquiry will be reserved by myself until it is completed.
There would have been a far greater outcry had Labour not held an inquiry and rightly so to.

On to Corbyn, I do feel he maybe does not see how there may be a problem with some minority,he seems'vacant' at times on this issue but no way do I believe him to be anti-semitic.
He does however seem to need a shake on this and be more passionate in his condemnation of the issue and determination to root it out once and for all.

As to the smear charge,the issue is there, not on the scale I think those who are just dead against Labour and the left generally are saying they think it is.
I also do think parts of the media and also those who have never accepted Corbyn's leadership victory,plus also those who just hate Corbyn anyway,who then are using this in part to smear him and the whole party if they can too.

Tory press digging any comments it can,while not waiting for the inquiry to do its work and see what it comes back with.
In that I agreed with Diane Abbott, which is rare for me, that this issue is being hijacked in part by those who just want Corbyn gone.

Really however,it has to be sorted out because it is now seeming from what some have said to me these last couple of days while out canvassing.
'Well just what can anyone say about Israel or the Jewish community, if they disagree with them and are angry at them for any reason, that will not be seen as being anti-semitic'?.
After these events,I gave the only answer I could, I now myself no longer know for sure,for me it was about other things than just pathetic and ignorant off the cuff comments that cause offence but which in 'intent' meant no real harm to the Jews or Israel.

That on this showing, no longer seems to be the case, much more it appears has to be watched as to what is said now, so I answered I don't know now but hopefully we will in time get better outlines of where the barriers are as to 'real' anti-semitism and indeed to all forms of racism too while they are at it.

[Livia]

It is smear, even the Jewish author whose map triggered the whole issue says it's smear :/

Oh well... it must be then. All the Jews (and non-Jews for that matter) who think it's disgusting and insulting must be wrong.

[Kizzy]

Ah well, we can't all be right all the time....except me obv.

[empire]

lets understand this, that, the labour party, is way too far left, and religious extremists have been creeping into the power, and it shows that there is something very wrong with that party, they seem to think that playing the two sided coin politics, gives them more votes, no party can just say, we love this religion, but the other we hate with passion, labour gets its large money donations from rich jews, so where will the party get its money if those rich jews, turn there backs on them.