View Full Version : Do not resuscitate
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/01/unforgivable-failings-in-end-of-life-care-revealed-40000-dying-p/
Such a caring lot.
You ask me this is murder.:shrug:
Kazanne
02-05-2016, 06:53 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/01/unforgivable-failings-in-end-of-life-care-revealed-40000-dying-p/
Such a caring lot.
You ask me this is murder.:shrug:
Well we all know who they will blame, it wont be their fault:smug:
Kizzy
02-05-2016, 07:27 PM
More pressure on doctors, why traumatise people by telling them they are dying, and why resuscitate someone whose body has given up?
Once everything has been done it is kinder to let people go, will relatives understand this, probably not as they want their loved ones to stay. :(
user104658
02-05-2016, 07:30 PM
I certainly don't think DNR is "murder", however, any person (and their loved ones) deserves to know when they don't have much time left. They might have things that they want to say, or people they want to say goodbye to.
More pressure on doctors, why traumatise people by telling them they are dying, and why resuscitate someone whose body has given up?
Once everything has been done it is kinder to let people go, will relatives understand this, probably not as they want their loved ones to stay. :(
What makes them think they have the right to play god.
It bloody stinks and must be the most abhorrent news story ive seen for a while.
Kizzy
02-05-2016, 07:39 PM
What makes them think they have the right to play god.
It bloody stinks and must be the most abhorrent news story ive seen for a while.
Are you not playing god by resuscitating? Are you not prolonging suffering by keeping patients conscious whose bodies have had enough?
why traumatise people by telling them they are dying
because it's ****ing common sense and the right thing to do??????
Kizzy
02-05-2016, 07:44 PM
because it's ****ing common sense and the right thing to do??????
Is it?... I'd say they are as honest as they need to be if the prognosis isn't good they don't give false hope.
Jamie89
02-05-2016, 07:45 PM
because it's ****ing common sense and the right thing to do??????
This tbh. It might be traumatic but that's not a reason to hide the truth from them. They have a right to know.
Are you not playing god by resuscitating? Are you not prolonging suffering by keeping patients conscious whose bodies have had enough?
Well no, i dont think you are playing god by resuscitating, wouldn't god want the person to live as long as possible?
Who says these people are suffering, there are many drugs to make patients comfortable. What the hell these so called workers in the caring profession are thinking when they can dictate when people die.
It is beyond contempt considering people pay all their lives for a service only to get kicked in the teeth at the end by some stranger supposedly their to maintain life.
Kizzy
02-05-2016, 07:53 PM
Well no, i dont think you are playing god by resuscitating, wouldn't god want the person to live as long as possible?
Who says these people are suffering, there are many drugs to make patients comfortable. What the hell these so called workers in the caring profession are thinking when they can dictate when people die.
It is beyond contempt considering people pay all their lives for a service only to get kicked in the teeth at the end by some stranger supposedly their to maintain life.
As said in the article there are markers that a body is entering the final stage of life, everything begins to shut down...how can that be reversed or prolonged without causing more suffering, what person in a caring profession wants that?Ethically it's the right thing to do, but getting that message across to relatives will be hard.
As said in the article there are markers that a body is entering the final stage of life, everything begins to shut down...how can that be reversed or prolonged without causing more suffering, what person in a caring profession wants that?Ethically it's the right thing to do, but getting that message across to relatives will be hard.
Whats hard about picking up the phone and saying to mr aand mrs smith that they think it would be best if mr smiths father wasnt resuscitated if something happened for god sake.. even thats not enough really, the relatives should be brought in amd questioned about it face to face..like tom said its the decent and humane thing to do.
Infact isnt this up to the relatives and not these overpaid dictators?
Im bloody sure if it was my relative i would want everything done so i could say my final farewell, and i would certainly want to know that the hospital were planning on doing eff all.
joeysteele
02-05-2016, 08:14 PM
I personally think this is a disgrace,of course families should be advised and asked.
This is a practice that should be made illegal ad quickly too. It is the duty of medical stff to save lives and give everyone the chance to live even a short bit longer.
Unless the patient themselves or the closest relative has said please do no resuscitate then it should be attempted and done.
DemolitionRed
02-05-2016, 08:53 PM
I have no problem with euthanasia providing the person who is being euthanized has formerly consented to it. If someone has a debilitating progressive illness and is able to state, before they get too bad, that when things do get bad, they don't wish to be resuscitated, then that's fine.
What I do object to is lack of choice and that includes relatives being able to choose and I'll tell you why....One of my relatives has a severe form of spasticity. She's none verbal and she suffers grand mall seizures. When you spend any time with her, you understand that regardless of all her crippling disabilities, she enjoys life. She loves her music, her sensory toys and Coronation Street. She loves going to musicals or spending time with people she's familiar with. If you take the time to get to know her like I do, you know she has her own ways of communicating and most importantly, you know she loves life. If you didn't know her, you'd probably say, "what quality of life has she got. why would we try and save someone like her".
Her parents have power of attorney and they have made a DNR order. They have chosen death over the chance of life and although they've been allowed that choice, its not one I would of made. I believe she has as much right to continue life if possible and because she can't make that choice herself, I don't think others should be able to make that choice for her.
Kizzy
02-05-2016, 09:20 PM
I can see it seems heartless, but in another it seems equally heartless to keep people alive in some circumstances, having to explain that is the best option? very difficult.
waterhog
02-05-2016, 09:26 PM
I can see it seems heartless, but in another it seems equally heartless to keep people alive in some circumstances, having to explain that is the best option? very difficult.
that's right - we don't no what they have wrong with them - can they get better ? are they in pain - I no it may seem cruel but I am staying opened minded.
do you want the love of my life initials NHS :laugh:
Cherie
02-05-2016, 09:39 PM
I have no problem with euthanasia providing the person who is being euthanized has formerly consented to it. If someone has a debilitating progressive illness and is able to state, before they get too bad, that when things do get bad, they don't wish to be resuscitated, then that's fine.
What I do object to is lack of choice and that includes relatives being able to choose and I'll tell you why....One of my relatives has a severe form of spasticity. She's none verbal and she suffers grand mall seizures. When you spend any time with her, you understand that regardless of all her crippling disabilities, she enjoys life. She loves her music, her sensory toys and Coronation Street. She loves going to musicals or spending time with people she's familiar with. If you take the time to get to know her like I do, you know she has her own ways of communicating and most importantly, you know she loves life. If you didn't know her, you'd probably say, "what quality of life has she got. why would we try and save someone like her".
Her parents have power of attorney and they have made a DNR order. They have chosen death over the chance of life and although they've been allowed that choice, its not one I would of made. I believe she has as much right to continue life if possible and because she can't make that choice herself, I don't think others should be able to make that choice for her.
Whilst I understand all you are saying, I also understand why the parents made that choice, their main worry will be what will happen to her when they die, if she is unable to make a choice then they have to make this difficult choice for her, it's easy to stand on the outside and make choices, it's quite different to be emotionally involved especially when it is your child
smudgie
02-05-2016, 09:52 PM
If the DNR order is onpeople with no hope then I am all for it.
I do think it is kinder to ask close family first, or at least advise them.
A doctor at the hospital took me to one side and said in the circumstances it would be pretty futile to try and bring him back if he had a heart attack etc, But the choice was mine, needless to say I agreed with the DNR..dad was dying and had no hope.
His care home was made aware of the order, unfortunately his carer decided she had to help him, just prolonged his life by mnutes and caused him great stress.
It depends on how you are approached I think, my sister-in-law was in bits when she was asked by the care home owner if there was to be a DNR on mother-in-law, just the shock and realisation that your loved one is at the end of their life.
The liverpool pathway however smacked of total disrespect and care for the dying. To withhold fluids and food is barbaric..rather just put them to sleep peacefully if we ever decide to go down that path.
I can see it seems heartless, but in another it seems equally heartless to keep people alive in some circumstances, having to explain that is the best option? very difficult.
I think you're missing the point of the idiot doctors failing to tell the families.
I was asked when the situation arose in my family, albeit over the phone which wasn't ideal. I would have been livid if I had not been consulted.
user104658
02-05-2016, 11:43 PM
Who says these people are suffering, there are many drugs to make patients comfortable. What the hell these so called workers in the caring profession are thinking when they can dictate when people die.
...have you ever actually seen someone lay in a hospital bed, slowly dying over several weeks? Organs failing and liquifying inside them, stomachs distended, their face literally rotting off of their head while they still gasp in a few more rattling breaths... the few moments a day when they are awake, incoherently babbling in pain whilst seemingly experiencing terrifying and surreal hallucinations everywhere around them...?
It's not an image I'll ever forget, personally. Sometimes DNR is entirely right. In fact, a pillow over the face a week earlier would be more "right" than the reality of it. For many - doped-up, smiling people peacefully and comfortably saying goodbye to their loved-ones, it is not.
I think you're missing the point of the idiot doctors failing to tell the families.
Again though I do agree that families should be informed of the situation... it's not fair for people to leave things unsaid not knowing that it's their last chance.
yes i watched my dad die of pancreatic cancer, at home, treated by a caring doctor who kept my mum informed at all times. he finally went in his sleep with my mum beside him, like it should be. Not surrounded by gaping unfazed strangers waiting to change your bed!
My nan had it, we knew she was going to die and made the decision when she was still in a good state of mind/okay health. She knew she was going to go down hill and the option to resuscitate her would only have made her even more worse.
She wanted dignity and that's what she got.
Cherie
03-05-2016, 07:26 AM
I think you're missing the point of the idiot doctors failing to tell the families.
This is the crux if the issue really, this is a conversation that needs to be had with the patient and if the patient is not able then with the family, the only time doctors should make this decision without consultation is if there is no next of kin and the patient is incapable
Livia
03-05-2016, 10:05 AM
So, Do Not Resuscitate is fine... but assisted dying is not? Apparently you don't have control over your own life, but some doctor can decide you're not worth saving.
Kizzy
03-05-2016, 10:18 AM
Essentially yes, having said that it would be interesting to see the list of patients and causes of death before committing myself fully.
If it was due to a young person with a life limiting condition and a 98yr old with associated age related degeneration then there's a difference imo.
DemolitionRed
03-05-2016, 10:31 AM
Whilst I understand all you are saying, I also understand why the parents made that choice, their main worry will be what will happen to her when they die, if she is unable to make a choice then they have to make this difficult choice for her, it's easy to stand on the outside and make choices, it's quite different to be emotionally involved especially when it is your child
I think the one thing any parent with a severely disabled child has to face up to is, what's going to happen to them when I'm no longer here?. In my cousins case, she doesn't live with them but is housed in a Mencap bungalow and cared for by support workers including her own key worker who is clearly very close to her.
I appreciate everyone isn't as lucky as her. There are still institution type environments for people with her sort of condition and that's the last place a caring parent would want their child to end up.
It has to be a decision reached on a case by case basis but always in the interest of the patient.
Livia
03-05-2016, 10:44 AM
Essentially yes, having said that it would be interesting to see the list of patients and causes of death before committing myself fully.
If it was due to a young person with a life limiting condition and a 98yr old with associated age related degeneration then there's a difference imo.
Except if it was your relative I'm guessing you'd feel differently. Old people are not worthless and doctors are not Gods. If they can help someone they are duty bound by the Hippocratic Oath to do so.
People make the mistake of thinking that all medical staff are caring angels. I think the Liverpool Pathway put paid to that idea. And deciding who should die is not a decision anyone can make.
Kizzy
03-05-2016, 11:21 AM
Except if it was your relative I'm guessing you'd feel differently. Old people are not worthless and doctors are not Gods. If they can help someone they are duty bound by the Hippocratic Oath to do so.
People make the mistake of thinking that all medical staff are caring angels. I think the Liverpool Pathway put paid to that idea. And deciding who should die is not a decision anyone can make.
How do you know I haven't?...
Who suggested anyone was worthless? Personally I'd say there comes a point where nothing else can be done, and at that point then DNR be applied.
That said there should be a greater degree of openness surrounding the use of DNR.
AnnieK
03-05-2016, 12:31 PM
When my mum was ill they discussed DNR with her alone and as she was quite poorly by that time she really didn't understand it. I wished they had waited for my dad to get there as it caused her quite a bit of distress. She had already refused treatment as her diagnosis was still terminal so I don't think they should have discussed it with her on her own but waited for my dad to get there.
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