Woman jailed after RSPCA officer discovered a horrifying scene at her house

[reece(:]

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02841/fghfghfghfghfgh_2841504a.jpg

A CRUEL pet owner has been jailed after RSPCA inspectors discovered her house of horrors littered with dead and decomposing animals.

Animal welfare inspectors were horrified when they made the grisly find at Tracey Tindall’s Bradford home in November last year.

Among the dead and dying animals was a bullmastiff, whose rotting body was still chained to its kennel.

Inspectors also found dead rabbits, a black cat, a border collie and two of its puppies, two more cats which had to later be put down and a lifeless bearded dragon.

Bradford magistrates court heard that when Inspectors Evans and Weston had surveyed the property they were met by Tindall who was returning to the property from the doctors.

She explained how she had been living with her mother who was suffering from dementia in a different property, but had been regularly returning to tend the animals.

Further inspection uncovered a scene of filth with animals faeces and rubbish strewn across the home and garden.

Prosecuting for the RSPCA, Mr Andrew Davidson said: "When the inspectors went into the living room, the floor was covered in faeces. There was no water present for the animals.

"When they went into the dining room, under the table was the body of a black cat which appeared to have recently died.

"In a cage they found a bearded dragon which appeared to be lifeless and had no light or water.

"In the dining area, the inspectors saw four puppy training crates. The right hand crate had the decomposing bodies of two puppies.

"Miss Tindall said the puppies had been in the crates for a couple of weeks to stop they chewing or wrecking the place.

"In the left hand crate there was the carcass of an adult collie."

Many of the surviving animals were found to be in a horrific state when they were rushed to the vets, with many rated as one out of five on a body condition index.

Tindall, 46, confirmed she had been solely responsible for the animals and that they had not been looked after as "she would have liked".

Mr Davidson added: "Miss Tindall said she was feeding them when she could but the money she received didn't go far.

"She explained she had no gas or electricity for a month and that she couldn't clean up because she didn't have cleaning products or hot water.

"These animals suffered for a long time because of the deprivation of food and the conditions they were kept in.

"There were far too many animals to be looked after in a property of this size."

As Tindall sobbed in the court, Ms Sara Lyle, mitigating, admitted her client was drinking heavily and was in a depressive state as a result of looking after her mother, who sadly passed away two days after the RSPCA found her animals.

Ms Lyle added: "There is not a word to describe how remorseful Miss Tindall feels."

She was handed an 18-week sentence following the neglect which magistrates chair Beryl Eakin described as "very harrowing".

Tindall, who pleaded guilty to 11 charges of failing to meet animal needs and nine of causing unnecessary suffering, was also disqualified from keeping animals for 20 years and an order was made to seize the two cats and five kittens still in her possession.

Read more (caution: GRAPHIC IMAGES): http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7127203/Pictured-Inside-house-of-horrors-full-of-dead-pets-including-one-dog-still-in-chains-in-shocking-case-of-animal-neglect.html




:umm2: What a vile piece of work, deserved a far longer sentence!! She can afford cigarettes yet not pet food... TRASH.

[arista]

"deserved a far longer sentence"


I agree

[Kazanne]

I saw this yesterday,she should have had a much longer sentence,personally I would have chained her to a kennel and left her there,time to get tougher on these cretinous lowlifes that abuse animals and neglect them.

[reece(:]

"Miss Tindall said the puppies had been in the crates for a couple of weeks to stop they chewing or wrecking the place.


As if she hadn't wrecked it enough anyway :umm2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

she needs to be put down the vile filthy hag

[TomC]

people who live like this are mentally ill

[DemolitionRed]

people who live like this are mentally ill

Exactly. Mentally ill with an alcohol addiction. People like her need a full medical assessment and the necessary treatment in the correct facility as well as being banned for life from owning or caring for any type of animal.

As sad and tragic as this is for those poor animals, I don't believe a normal prison is the right place to be sending her.

[joeysteele]

I saw this yesterday,she should have had a much longer sentence,personally I would have chained her to a kennel and left her there,time to get tougher on these cretinous lowlifes that abuse animals and neglect them.

Wonderful, spot on Kazanne.

What a horrible scene,cretinous lowlife is the only description appropriate.

[bots]

its a tragic scene it really is. I always think its worse when this happens to animals or children when they are completely dependent on others looking after them.

With a house full of animals, those not caged would eventually turn on each other as hunger set in which is a horrifying thought. I'm also surprised that no-one heard anything because animals in distress are not quiet, and there were a lot of them. I don't think the full details of this have been disclosed.

[Amy Jade]

Exactly. Mentally ill with an alcohol addiction. People like her need a full medical assessment and the necessary treatment in the correct facility as well as being banned for life from owning or caring for any type of animal.

As sad and tragic as this is for those poor animals, I don't believe a normal prison is the right place to be sending her.

I agree with the last part, she shouldn't be in prison with a clean environment and food handed to her, she should suffer like those animals did.

She's rotten and it'd be a shame if the tax payers have to foot the bill to look after the evil bitch.

[Alf]

I'm guessing she got a 3 for a pound deal on the Tango shower gel.

[Niamh.]

Exactly. Mentally ill with an alcohol addiction. People like her need a full medical assessment and the necessary treatment in the correct facility as well as being banned for life from owning or caring for any type of animal.

As sad and tragic as this is for those poor animals, I don't believe a normal prison is the right place to be sending her.

Yeah she sounds like one of those hoarders, sad for both her and those poor animals

[waterhog]

she has got a illness and needs help.

[user104658]

Imagine the smell :umm2:

But yes there is literally no explanation for this other than mental illness. She should be in a secure psychiatric facility, not a prison, which will only make her worse.

[Kazanne]

people who live like this are mentally ill

Or just lazy ,filthy and uncaring.

[Livia]

Perhaps there should be some legislation to cover animal welfare and the mentally ill. If you can't look after yourself you can't look after an animal. This is a case of ongoing neglect and cruelty and she should have had a much longer sentence. And it's INSANE to think they've had to seize another cat and its kittens from her! Having a pet is a privilege and a responsibility. Once you've shown you can't handle that you should never be allowed to keep another animal ever.

[user104658]

Or just lazy ,filthy and uncaring.

There's "Lazy and dirty" and then there's "Gathering a tonne of animals and allowing them to starve and a house to be destroyed". Come on. A "Lazy, filthy and uncaring" person doesn't end up in the situation to have that happen in the first place. No "normal thinking" person does. The problem here is addiction and mental illness, as it is with a whole bucketload of the nation's problems.

What's the point in putting her in prison for a while only for her to come out worse than ever? Vengeance of some sort? It's entirely hollow. We are a civilised country and we believe in rehabilitation. Or, at least, we're supposed to. I know there are plenty of people desperate for a pitchfork to gnaw on.

The real tragedy is that most of the time, once a person is this far gone, things are never going to change much. Yet another broken soul in a ****ty system. I just wish we'd stop letting people turn into this in the first place. THAT is how you stop these horrific stories from happening. Not by burning people at the stake after it's done.

[user104658]

And it's INSANE to think they've had to seize another cat and its kittens from her!

Apparently it's not insane Livia - it's the action of a completely sane and rational person who fully comprehends the consequences of her past and current actions. She was just too lazy to not get a load more cats. :shrug:

[Livia]

Apparently it's not insane Livia - it's the action of a completely sane and rational person who fully comprehends the consequences of her past and current actions. She was just too lazy to not get a load more cats. :shrug:

If she is indeed mental, she will be in the system somewhere. If she's so far down that road that she let these animals die in an horrific way and we're going to accept that as an excuse, then someone should have stepped in long before now. Saying she has mental problems, which I assume is what you're doing, does not excuse her for this. The woman has no sympathy, no empathy and should never have been allowed a pet, let alone a whole menagerie. And now she should be motored closely, like they monitor animal abusers in the USA, because animal abuse and other kinds of abuse often go hand in hand.

[user104658]

If she is indeed mental, she will be in the system somewhere. If she's so far down that road that she let these animals die in an horrific way and we're going to accept that as an excuse, then someone should have stepped in long before now. Saying she has mental problems, which I assume is what you're doing, does not excuse her for this. The woman has no sympathy, no empathy and should never have been allowed a pet, let alone a whole menagerie. And now she should be motored closely, like they monitor animal abusers in the USA, because animal abuse and other kinds of abuse often go hand in hand.

I'm not saying it's an excuse or that there should be no consequences, like I said she should be placed in a secure psychiatric unit rather than a conventional prison. It's quite clearly not appropriate for someone who is already a trainwreck.

Anyway - the bolded part of your post is really my entire point. She's too far gone to be anything other than what she is at this point, but that is tragic. People shouldn't get to this point. People are dismissed and brushed under the carpet as they slowly disintegrate from childhood onwards and no one bothers to give them a second glance until it's FAR too late. That's just the society we live in.

[Kazanne]

If she is indeed mental, she will be in the system somewhere. If she's so far down that road that she let these animals die in an horrific way and we're going to accept that as an excuse, then someone should have stepped in long before now. Saying she has mental problems, which I assume is what you're doing, does not excuse her for this. The woman has no sympathy, no empathy and should never have been allowed a pet, let alone a whole menagerie. And now she should be motored closely, like they monitor animal abusers in the USA, because animal abuse and other kinds of abuse often go hand in hand.

:worship::clap1: Exactly there are always excuses wheeled out for these 'mentally ill' people ,imo they are scum,not surprised though it's even the same for child neglect etc,nevermind all these animals who suffered horrendously, she'll soon be getting some more !!!

[Niamh.]

:worship::clap1: Exactly there are always excuses wheeled out for these 'mentally ill' people ,imo they are scum,not surprised though it's even the same for child neglect etc,nevermind all these animals who suffered horrendously, she'll soon be getting some more !!!

Seriously though, look at those photos, do you seriously think anyone who isn't mentally ill could live in those conditions? I have to agree with TS, she needs to be put into some sort of unit rather than prison. But definitely she shouldn't ever be allowed to keep animals again

[DemolitionRed]

People are bound to respond to a story like this on an emotional level but the truth is, this is a mental health condition and needs to be treated as such.

Animal hoarding nearly always leads to gross neglect of those animals and is a diagnosable mental illness. It is usually treated with cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) but has a 100 percent relapse without appropriate treatment.
http://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety/ask-and-learn/ask-expert/what-animal-hoarding-it-hoarding-lots-objects-can-peopl

[billy123]

Anybody that buys The butterfly effect 2 on dvd must be metally unstable that should have been an early warning sign right there.

[user104658]

Anybody that buys The butterfly effect 2 on dvd must be metally unstable that should have been an early warning sign right there.

That genuinely jumped out at me when I saw the first photo too. :hehe:

The film is that bad. Amidst all that horror, it still stands out like "UGH... Butterfly Effect 2? NO."

[Niamh.]

That genuinely jumped out at me when I saw the first photo too. :hehe:

The film is that bad. Amidst all that horror, it still stands out like "UGH... Butterfly Effect 2? NO."

The first one is really good though

[user104658]

The first one is really good though
The first one is very watchable, it would have been genuinely very good with a different lead (IMO...).

The second one stinks. Stinks... like feces, and decomposing dog corpses. Omg it's all starting to make some sort of twisted sense...

[Niamh.]

The first one is very watchable, it would have been genuinely very good with a different lead (IMO...).

The second one stinks. Stinks... like feces, and decomposing dog corpses. Omg it's all starting to make some sort of twisted sense...

:hehe:

I hate Ashton Kutcher but I actually liked him in that film :laugh: I'm 80% sure I watched the second one but I can't for the life of me remember a single thing about it.....maybe I blocked it

[billy123]

:hehe:

I hate Ashton Kutcher but I actually liked him in that film :laugh: I'm 80% sure I watched the second one but I can't for the life of me remember a single thing about it.....maybe I blocked itI love the first movie Ashton Kutcher is fantastic in it the second one really is awful.

[Niamh.]

I love the first movie Ashton Kutcher is fantastic in it the second one really is awful.

The first one is only good with the proper ending though, I remember the second time I watch it, it had a different ending to the first and I was like wtf???

[user104658]

:hehe:

I hate Ashton Kutcher but I actually liked him in that film [emoji23] I'm 80% sure I watched the second one but I can't for the life of me remember a single thing about it.....maybe I blocked it
I wouldn't be surprised. Blocked it like... Like a drain full of lifeless iguanas and discarded SSRI's.

This is getting really difficult to keep on track :umm2:.

But yeah, I have this horrible affliction where of I start watching a film, I literally have to finish it. This is one of those films that made that especially painful. Like an endurance challenge.

[Livia]

People are bound to respond to a story like this on an emotional level but the truth is, this is a mental health condition and needs to be treated as such.

Animal hoarding nearly always leads to gross neglect of those animals and is a diagnosable mental illness. It is usually treated with cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) but has a 100 percent relapse without appropriate treatment.
http://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety/ask-and-learn/ask-expert/what-animal-hoarding-it-hoarding-lots-objects-can-peopl

Doesn't actually say anywhere that she was diagnosed with a medical illness, so that's an amazing diagnosis you've made there. It says she was "drinking heavily" (although it also said she couldn't afford cleaning material or pet food), that she was "depressed" ( following the loss of her mother (although it didn't say she suffers from depression). Despite the horror of the situation and the real possibility that the woman is just scum, some people knee-jerk to it not being their fault. I'm sure when she was sentenced her mental state would have been taken into account.

[Kazanne]

Has this thread got mixed up with another as some of the posts don't seem related at all.and Livia you are spot on ,again,well said.

[user104658]

Doesn't actually say anywhere that she was diagnosed with a medical illness, so that's an amazing diagnosis you've made there. It says she was "drinking heavily" (although it also said she couldn't afford cleaning material or pet food), that she was "depressed" ( following the loss of her mother (although it didn't say she suffers from depression). Despite the horror of the situation and the real possibility that the woman is just scum, some people knee-jerk to it not being their fault. I'm sure when she was sentenced her mental state would have been taken into account.
Because people with sound mental health become alcoholics for fun, and the prison system is full of completely normal people with no psychological issues or damage.

Once again Livia, you need to tell us which magical wardrobe leads to your world, because it sounds much better and fairer than the one most of us live in and I think it's only right that we all live with you in the land of perfect justice.

[user104658]

Has this thread got mixed up with another as some of the posts don't seem related at all.and Livia you are spot on ,again,well said.
That was Niamh's fault and Niamh is #1 mod of TiBB so deal wiv it, pedestrian.

[Marsh.]

What an awful way to store your DVDs D:

[Livia]

Because people with sound mental health become alcoholics for fun, and the prison system is full of completely normal people with no psychological issues or damage.

Once again Livia, you need to tell us which magical wardrobe leads to your world, because it sounds much better and fairer than the one most of us live in and I think it's only right that we all live with you in the land of perfect justice.

I live in the real world. Where people take responsibility for themselves and their animals and people don't immediately say they're suffering from mental health issues because they're a scumbag.

And you wouldn't get a visa to live in my world TS.

[user104658]

I live in the real world. Where people take responsibility for themselves and their animals and people don't immediately say they're suffering from mental health issues because they're a scumbag.

And you wouldn't get a visa to live in my world TS.

And how exactly do people become "scum"? Are they born "scum"? Are they just "scummy babies"?

You live in a world where the answer to that question is " :shrug: don't know don't care punish the scum". If the question is asked at all. Which seems doubtful.

I'd rather live in a world where we look for solutions to stop people ending up like this is the first place than one where we see the aftermath and grab our pitchforks. That's why it's important to acknowledge that this woman is clearly a psychological mess. Not to "excuse her". Nothing to do with her. But so that we understand it in an effort to stop others from becoming the same.

So, not looking for a visa to t'otherworld I'm afraid. Even if it does seem like a simpler existence. Easy answers with predefined boundaries, etc.

[DemolitionRed]

When someone does something so abhorrent to a child or an animal, mental illness is the One pill the emotionally affected don't want to give is that of a mental health condition because there must be NO EXCUSE allowed.

I will never understand the realities of human behaviour, when I meet people who have little empathy or morality I just remind myself not to have expectations of them.

[bots]

When someone does something so abhorrent to a child or an animal, mental illness is the One pill the emotionally affected don't want to give is that of a mental health condition because there must be NO EXCUSE allowed.

I will never understand the realities of human behaviour, when I meet people who have little empathy or morality I just remind myself not to have expectations of them.

But, she may just have been a not very nice person. its common to say someone is mentally unstable when they do something out of the ordinary, but it is not a prerequisite to that type of behaviour.

[Tom4784]

Those poor animals.

I definitely think she's mentally ill, nobody who is of sound mind lives like that but who cares about that when you've got an opportunity to engage in a bit of wanton bloodlust?

'SHE SHOULD BE NAILED DOWN TO THE FLOOR AND FED TO DOGS ALIVE BECAUSE SHE'S EVIL AND I'M OBVIOUSLY THE EPITOME OF GOODNESS AND MORALITY FOR SUGGESTING SUCH A PUNISHMENT. TORTURE THE BITCH.'

[Cherie]

Why are people assuming she is mentally ill, if a psycho murders we don't automatically assume ..mentally ill, this isn't the 18th century she will have had a psych evaluation before sentencing

[DemolitionRed]

Because alcohol and depression (the two things reported) is often a vicious circle of mental instability. Alcohol alters our brain chemistry and is linked to a number of things including psychosis. Heavy drinkers get depressed because the serotonin in the brain depletes and this is why alcoholics often neglect their home, themselves, their children and their animals.

From what I've read, this woman had already sectioned herself to her house. Her house and her own personal care had become none existent and the animals she believed she had good intentions towards, were grossly neglected too.

There are many, many people incarcerated within the prison system who have neither gone or will ever go through proper mental health evaluation. Even Peter Sutcliffe was mistakenly put in a regular prison before being sent to Broadmoor.

[Jamie89]

Why are people assuming she is mentally ill, if a psycho murders we don't automatically assume ..mentally ill, this isn't the 18th century she will have had a psych evaluation before sentencing

Hopefully that's true.

Personally I think she must have been mentally unwell. I mean, if I was to go round to someones house and it looked like that! Well I wouldn't think they were 'normal', I'd assume there must be something wrong with them. If say she wasn't mentally ill, and was just a really horrible person who wanted to torture animals, I kind of imagine that the general state of the house would be different, more livable for people but perhaps a separate room for the animals she wanted to abuse or something. But the place wasn't even livable for her so I don't think it can be a case that she was just a bad person who wanted to mistreat animals, it's like she generally just lost all concept of what a 'livable condition' is. (I'm not trying to excuse anything btw, just trying to understand how something like this can happen). Obviously that's all just assumptions anyway though, like I said, hopefully she was assessed properly and her sentence took into consideration the results.

[user104658]

When someone does something so abhorrent to a child or an animal, mental illness is the One pill the emotionally affected don't want to give is that of a mental health condition because there must be NO EXCUSE allowed.


The problem is that people struggle to draw a distinction between understanding a reason, and making excuses. Understanding abnormal human behaviour isn't about making excuses for the past actions of that person - it's about preventing future similar actions in both that person and others.

[user104658]

Why are people assuming she is mentally ill, if a psycho murders we don't automatically assume ..mentally ill, this isn't the 18th century she will have had a psych evaluation before sentencing
A psycho? A psychopath? We don't assume that a psychopath is mentally ill?

... Is this a joke?

[joeysteele]

Because alcohol and depression (the two things reported) is often a vicious circle of mental instability. Alcohol alters our brain chemistry and is linked to a number of things including psychosis. Heavy drinkers get depressed because the serotonin in the brain depletes and this is why alcoholics often neglect their home, themselves, their children and their animals.

From what I've read, this woman had already sectioned herself to her house. Her house and her own personal care had become none existent and the animals she believed she had good intentions towards, were grossly neglected too.

There are many, many people incarcerated within the prison system who have neither gone or will ever go through proper mental health evaluation. Even Peter Sutcliffe was mistakenly put in a regular prison before being sent to Broadmoor.

Yours and Jamie's post and indeed Dezzy's too,have made me think.

I reacted strongly because I love animals and really love Dogs too and also my view was clouded by my own loss of a pet recently.

Depression is an absolute horror,in the main depression leads people to put things off until later, tomorrow,next week and later, once tomorrow and next week arrive the same cycle becomes the same again as to putting things off.
Absolute horror for the animals that must have suffered and no one would believe that acceptable in any way.

However looking at the state of the place,there must be some mental problem here with this person to be living like that.
If there is then prison is not really the place she should be in.

I abhor people who treat animals badly it does however seem anyone or anything in that house was going to be really sorely neglected across the board.

Good posts from you Jamie and Dezzy and TS too.
All of you made me think hard from my initial reaction to this so thank you for that.
Instant judgemental comments out of hurt and anger don't make for positive outcomes at times.

I still feel hurt and anger for the animals but unfortunately took the eye off the ball as to another human being, who may have needed help themselves too, and it would appear no one around to do so and see what what was happening in their life
Depressed people or anyone with mental problems rarely jump up and ask for help too,again putting that off to another day that in reality is a day that never or rarely comes round.

[Livia]

And how exactly do people become "scum"? Are they born "scum"? Are they just "scummy babies"?

You live in a world where the answer to that question is " :shrug: don't know don't care punish the scum". If the question is asked at all. Which seems doubtful.

I'd rather live in a world where we look for solutions to stop people ending up like this is the first place than one where we see the aftermath and grab our pitchforks. That's why it's important to acknowledge that this woman is clearly a psychological mess. Not to "excuse her". Nothing to do with her. But so that we understand it in an effort to stop others from becoming the same.

So, not looking for a visa to t'otherworld I'm afraid. Even if it does seem like a simpler existence. Easy answers with predefined boundaries, etc.

There are a lot of magnificent diagnoses going on in this thread from people with not a qualification between them. "Clearly a psychological mess". incredible the way you managed to come to that conclusion. Even Doctor Phil couldn't diagnose someone through reading about them in an article. You're amazing.

[Livia]

A psycho? A psychopath? We don't assume that a psychopath is mentally ill?

... Is this a joke?

Do you think this s the first time anyone had any clue that she's "mentally ill" as you have diagnosed?

Honestly... no one's allowed to criticise a woman who allowed these animals to die in a most horrific way although had plenty of money for booze. No one must call a terrorist a "monster"... I think the question is, what world are YOU living in? One where anyone can do anything and immediately someone will be worrying about the welfare of the perpetrator because they're not responsible for their own dreadful actions.

[joeysteele]

The problem is that people struggle to draw a distinction between understanding a reason, and making excuses. Understanding abnormal human behaviour isn't about making excuses for the past actions of that person - it's about preventing future similar actions in both that person and others.

True.

Also we do not need to be Doctors,(although I have 4 in my own Family), to look at the state of the place and see something was badly wrong here with this person.

I know if I saw anyone living that way I would instantly think they had a mental issue if not an illness.
Drinking alcohol too would blot out the issue and problem to the person drinking.

Alcohol is relatively cheap to buy and will more than likely send you off to sleep in the end, so the person is not then thinking about anything needing doing or realising anything that should be done.

Working in law,I have to try to assess what makes people do the things they do,try to find a reason for behaviour and identify any problems too.
She had to be punished for the ill treatment and neglect of the animals but maybe jail will not address the underlying issues there may be.

It is horrendous as a case,no doubt as to that.

[Livia]

True.

Also we do not need to be Doctors,(although I have 4 in my own Family), to look at the state of the place and see something was badly wrong here with this person.

I know if I saw anyone living that way I would instantly think they had a mental issue if not an illness.
Drinking alcohol too would blot out the issue and problem to the person drinking.

Alcohol is relatively cheap to buy and will more than likely send you off to sleep in the end, so the person is not then thinking about anything needing doing or realising anything that should be done.

Working in law,I have to try to assess what makes people do the things they do,try to find a reason for behaviour and identify any problems too.
She had to be punished for the ill treatment and neglect of the animals but maybe jail will not address the underlying issues there may be.

It is horrendous as a case,no doubt as to that.

Joey, If you want to refer to my post, please do so and stop answering other people's and covering points I've made.

I also work in the law as you know, and have done for some time. Do you honestly think ANY lawyer representing her would have allowed the case to go forward without her mental illness being taken into account? If it was taken into account, it was clearly not severe enough to stop a custodial sentence... or there was no illness.

[Kazanne]

No excuses for her from me,to let so many animals SUFFER and STARVE while she was obviously filling her own face is disgraceful,nothing mental there just one of lifes lazy sods who don't give a toss about the welfare or feelings of animals,but according to some we can do exactly what we like to them and someone will step in and 'help' us.Pffft

[Tom4784]

No excuses for her from me,to let so many animals SUFFER and STARVE while she was obviously filling her own face is disgraceful,nothing mental there just one of lifes lazy sods who don't give a toss about the welfare or feelings of animals,but according to some we can do exactly what we like to them and someone will step in and 'help' us.Pffft

Lovely.

[user104658]

There are a lot of magnificent diagnoses going on in this thread from people with not a qualification between them. "Clearly a psychological mess". incredible the way you managed to come to that conclusion. Even Doctor Phil couldn't diagnose someone through reading about them in an article. You're amazing.

In my opinion it is perfectly clear from the pictures of the property that we are not talking about a psychologically normal individual. You might not think so, but to be frank, I believe that you are 100% wrong.


Do you think this s the first time anyone had any clue that she's "mentally ill" as you have diagnosed?

Honestly... no one's allowed to criticise a woman who allowed these animals to die in a most horrific way although had plenty of money for booze. No one must call a terrorist a "monster"... I think the question is, what world are YOU living in? One where anyone can do anything and immediately someone will be worrying about the welfare of the perpetrator because they're not responsible for their own dreadful actions.

Again, it's not about this woman, it's not about not criticising her, it's not about excusing her, it's not about discussing the outcomes for HER after THIS. It is about identifying, understanding and appreciating the causes of incidents like this, which almost exclusively involve mental illness, in order to act early to stop other people from ending up in these situations. To save countless individuals - human or animal - from future suffering.

But by all means, continue to shove your fingers in your ears, bleat "burn the witch" and achieve precisely jack sh** in terms of improving social wellbeing or preventing future incidents. It's in the Tory handbook, after all.

[Cherie]

A psycho? A psychopath? We don't assume that a psychopath is mentally ill?

... Is this a joke?

No it's not a joke I've never heard words like that used in connection to say Myra Hindley, you hear words like evil, manipulative, monster etc yes psychosis is a mental state but it doesn't mean mentally ill in the sense that you are using

[user104658]

No it's not a joke I've never heard words like that used in connection to say Myra Hindley, you hear words like evil, manipulative, monster etc yes psychosis is a mental state but it doesn't mean mentally ill in the sense that you are using

Of course it does. Some mental illnesses create incredibly dangerous individuals who need to be locked away for the safety of everyone around them. This does not make them any less mentally ill.

AGAIN - that individual should of course be locked away for the safety of others. Does that mean you say "Oh whewww they're gone now we never have to think about it again!". Thankfully, no, it doesn't. People study and examine these disorders, sequences of events and consequences in huge depth. Not to excuse the person who has committed these crimes, but to identify and treat others early before they become a risk to themselves or others.

I really can't figure out what's so hard to understand about that other than - as someone said - because people have a basic knee-jerk reaction to these things where they believe that "understanding = excusing" (it doesn't) and that it's pointless (it isn't).

[Cherie]

Of course it does. Some mental illnesses create incredibly dangerous individuals who need to be locked away for the safety of everyone around them. This does not make them any less mentally ill.

AGAIN - that individual should of course be locked away for the safety of others. Does that mean you say "Oh whewww they're gone now we never have to think about it again!". Thankfully, no, it doesn't. People study and examine these disorders, sequences of events and consequences in huge depth. Not to excuse the person who has committed these crimes, but to identify and treat others early before they become a risk to themselves or others.

I really can't figure out what's so hard to understand about that other than - as someone said - because people have a basic knee-jerk reaction to these things where they believe that "understanding = excusing" (it doesn't) and that it's pointless (it isn't).


We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state, either way she should never own an animal again.

[Kazanne]

We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state, either way she should never own an animal again.

:clap1::clap1:Well said.

[MTVN]

I don't think its a that unusual case of someone who lost control of their life through heavy drinking and the stress brought on from her mother's illness and her pets suffered as a result of that. I see no reason why 'stick her in a psych ward' should become the default response whenever someone commits a bad crime though, that can actually do more harm than good. The prison system is quite sophisticated these days, I'm sure they'll be help available for her drinking and depression while in there and in the aftermath if she wants it and there's nothing to tell us that her mental state is so bad that prison is an inappropriate place for her.

[Alf]

I've decided to take offence to the phrase "Mentally Ill", so can we please stop using it? or come up with a term more politically correct?

[user104658]

We don't know enough about the case to dismiss the fact that she might have enjoyed watching the animals suffer, she might just be a cruel person full stop, not mentally ill in the sense that she didn't know what she was doing, just because her house was filthy isn't conclusive evidence as to her mental state

People who actively enjoy watching animals suffering are psychologically abnormal. Are you genuinely saying that a 100% sane and rational person might find themselves torturing a bunch of animals to death? I seriously HOPE that isn't something that ever happens.

Secondly, again, we seem to be completely stuck on this idea that "understanding = excusing". It's not about whether she knew what she was doing or not, it's not about excusing her actions or saying that there shouldn't be consequences. It's not about establishing an insanity or incompetence plea to lessen her punishment, I think the outcome in this case is perfectly reasonable, if a little on the light side because I believe that she should be undergoing significant mental health treatment before being released.

The reason this consistently fails to occur in the justice system has far more to do with a lack of funding and a lack of available facility than it being unnecessary or a lack of diagnosis.

There are huge numbers of people in prison who would be less dangerous individuals on release, with less risk of reoffending and therefore less risk to the public, if they were to recieve appropriate psychiatric care whilst incarcerated. But because "that doesn't sit well with most people" we just lock them up for a while and then let them back out exactly as they were before, or worse. Mess.


either way she should never own an animal again.

I agree on that obviously but, again, it's not really the point.

[joeysteele]

Joey, If you want to refer to my post, please do so and stop answering other people's and covering points I've made.

I also work in the law as you know, and have done for some time. Do you honestly think ANY lawyer representing her would have allowed the case to go forward without her mental illness being taken into account? If it was taken into account, it was clearly not severe enough to stop a custodial sentence... or there was no illness.

Excuse me, I made a reference to mental illness and said we didn't need to be Doctors, I was making a point to legitimate posts from DemRed and TS.
I am not a Doctor but I think I can tell when someone is having a Stroke or a heart attack for instance.
So the way this woman appeared to be living would have sent alarm bells ringing I'd have thought for anyone who saw it.

AS to your 2nd point, no that should not happen and I agree Lawyers should root that out if it exists.
However too, despite Lawyers as TS said, there are many people in Prisons who should not be but who have been sentenced despite mental problems.
Good grief,even with Lawyers there are people going to Prison who are then later shown to be innocent.

From my perspective someone living like she was, I would feel they must have some mental issue if not a mental health problem.
AS a Lawyer, it is the first thing I would have checked out, do we know for sure hers did.

I condemn the case totally, she had to be punished but I was talking to DemRed and TS and their posts as to this case and mental or any otherwise issues.
I will also actually with respect answer to whom I please too on here.
Mental issues were being discussed here before your Doctor bit by TS and DemRed too,to whom I was making a point that they had,by their posts,made me look at and think again as to possibly more underlying issues to this case.

[bots]

Any judge worth his/her salt would insist on a psychiatric evaluation on presentation of the evidence. These are people who have all the facts to hand and are therefore best placed to make appropriate decisions, rather than armchair diagnosis.

[user104658]

I am not a Doctor but I think I can tell when someone is having a Stroke or a heart attack for instance.

Joey: "Oh my god, that man is having a heart attack! Call an ambulance!"

Livia: "I was not aware that you were a doctor, Joey..."

Joey: "I'm not a doctor..."

Livia: "Oh you're not a doctor? You have no medical training whatsoever?? Well then what makes you think you are qualified to identify when someone is having a heart attack? lol. We should leave absolutely every judgement up to only exactly the specifically qualified people in that field, so whilst you say he is having a heart attack, he may in fact just be sneezing or have a mild itch."

Joey: "He's dead. We were too late. He died of a heart attack."

Livia: "Are you a qualified coroner, Joey...?"

[joeysteele]

I don't think its a that unusual case of someone who lost control of their life through heavy drinking and the stress brought on from her mother's illness and her pets suffered as a result of that. I see no reason why 'stick her in a psych ward' should become the default response whenever someone commits a bad crime though, that can actually do more harm than good. The prison system is quite sophisticated these days, I'm sure they'll be help available for her drinking and depression while in there and in the aftermath if she wants it and there's nothing to tell us that her mental state is so bad that prison is an inappropriate place for her.

Great if it did and wish I had your confidence MTVN but people actually come out of Prison with even drug problems they didn't have before they went in for instance or just as bad as when they went in.

Prisons are overcrowded in the main and understaffed, that makes really dealing with any addictions and mental health issues very difficult.
What you say as prison,that is definitely how it should be but there is a long way to go as to that yet.

I am horrified at this case and how she lived and the suffering of those animals.
I agree 100% she should never be allowed to have animals again, however some on here have tempered my original response and one would hope all things were looked at and considered.
Also if she needs direction to sort out any addictions or mental health issues that it will happen.
She needs to be educated too and fully understand the horrific suffering she caused to animals.
I have my doubts as to the Prison situation now, overcrowding means people can slip down further once in prison more often than not.

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

[Beso]

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

[joeysteele]

Any judge worth his/her salt would insist on a psychiatric evaluation on presentation of the evidence. These are people who have all the facts to hand and are therefore best placed to make appropriate decisions, rather than armchair diagnosis.

It doesn't always happen that is the case,unfortunately.
It is also far better if Lawyers get that all done before the trial.

It should be the case and does happen most times but many do slip through too.

[Kazanne]

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

Good Point ,and she would be deemed as a 'caring' person to do that,so how come she just let her animals suffer and die ? also the one who died STILL chained to it's kennel would have surely shown signs of distress,but it was left there just to die ? No,imo this woman knew these animals were suffereing.

[user104658]

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

Yet very few people care about that because - as thoroughly demonstrated in this thread - a lot of people are more concerned with vengeance and punishment than with rehabilitation. The world sort of briefly poked its' head above the clouds for a few decades into a more enlightened socially aware state that recognised that understanding mental health an rehabilitating offenders were key aspects of improving society but, sadly, we're well and truly backsliding now. Understanding is "excusing" and rehabilitation is "cushy"... it's all punishment, wrath, an eye for an eye, people "getting what they deserve"... and folks lap it up :shrug:.

[user104658]

she was mentally well enough to look after her mum.

On the contrary, it was probably her mother's illness and her responsibility for her that tipped her over the edge. This is fairly common.

In fact, my own mother never really recovered from caring for her own mother in our home as she died, and it was a huge contributing factor in sparking her own severe mental health issues and alcoholism that eventually killed her too.

[Cherie]

People who actively enjoy watching animals suffering are psychologically abnormal. Are you genuinely saying that a 100% sane and rational person might find themselves torturing a bunch of animals to death? I seriously HOPE that isn't something that ever happens.

Secondly, again, we seem to be completely stuck on this idea that "understanding = excusing". It's not about whether she knew what she was doing or not, it's not about excusing her actions or saying that there shouldn't be consequences. It's not about establishing an insanity or incompetence plea to lessen her punishment, I think the outcome in this case is perfectly reasonable, if a little on the light side because I believe that she should be undergoing significant mental health treatment before being released.

The reason this consistently fails to occur in the justice system has far more to do with a lack of funding and a lack of available facility than it being unnecessary or a lack of diagnosis.

There are huge numbers of people in prison who would be less dangerous individuals on release, with less risk of reoffending and therefore less risk to the public, if they were to recieve appropriate psychiatric care whilst incarcerated. But because "that doesn't sit well with most people" we just lock them up for a while and then let them back out exactly as they were before, or worse. Mess.




I agree on that obviously but, again, it's not really the point.

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?

[joeysteele]

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?

I hope she does, that is if help is needed but there are too many people in Prisons with mental issues and often they slip through the net.

The prison service is way overstretched,far too many people are in prison who shouldn't be in my view and prison staff have neither the time or facilities to first identify mental health issue needs,let alone address them correctly.

Hopefully the day will come when they are supported properly to do so but that day in my view is a good way off from what I have seen.

[user104658]

Is there any reason to believe as MTVN says that she won't get help in the prison system?
Yes, because as Joey says, the prison system is barely fit for purpose when it comes to your average petty thief.

[Amy Jade]

I'm sorry but I find it quite baffling how people want to put this horrible bitch in a mental hospital, it's not mentioned anywhere she wasn't mentally sound - if she had have been I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it along side her alcoholism. It's a pretty straightforward case of major neglect and cruelty. Yes it sounds like she's had a bad time with her mum passing but that's no excuse to leave pets to starve to death...she managed to put a bottle to her mouth she could have managed to feed an animal and there is no excuse in my eyes.

[MTVN]

Great if it did and wish I had your confidence MTVN but people actually come out of Prison with even drug problems they didn't have before they went in for instance or just as bad as when they went in.

Prisons are overcrowded in the main and understaffed, that makes really dealing with any addictions and mental health issues very difficult.
What you say as prison,that is definitely how it should be but there is a long way to go as to that yet.

I am horrified at this case and how she lived and the suffering of those animals.
I agree 100% she should never be allowed to have animals again, however some on here have tempered my original response and one would hope all things were looked at and considered.
Also if she needs direction to sort out any addictions or mental health issues that it will happen.
She needs to be educated too and fully understand the horrific suffering she caused to animals.
I have my doubts as to the Prison situation now, overcrowding means people can slip down further once in prison more often than not.

Very few prisons sadly get any glowing marks or praise from inspectors.

Experiences vary of course but this woman has received a fairly short sentence and I imagine she will serve it at quite a low security prison where there tends to be a lot of opportunities for inmates. Even if she does not receive help while in prison there are plenty of services and medication available to anyone suffering from alcoholism or depression, it isn't necessary to consign someone to a psych ward.

[user104658]

I'm sorry but I find it quite baffling how people want to put this horrible bitch in a mental hospital, it's not mentioned anywhere she wasn't mentally sound - if she had have been I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it along side her alcoholism. It's a pretty straightforward case of major neglect and cruelty. Yes it sounds like she's had a bad time with her mum passing but that's no excuse to leave pets to starve to death...she managed to put a bottle to her mouth she could have managed to feed an animal and there is no excuse in my eyes.

I find it baffling that people are still talking about "making excuses" when its been outright stated several times throughout this thread that it's not about excusing her actions.

Actually, no, I don't find it baffling... because this brand of ignorance is entirely run-of-the-mill.

[user104658]

Experiences vary of course but this woman has received a fairly short sentence and I imagine she will serve it at quite a low security prison where there tends to be a lot of opportunities for inmates. Even if she does not receive help while in prison there are plenty of services and medication available to anyone suffering from alcoholism or depression, it isn't necessary to consign someone to a psych ward.

You say that as if we're talking about padded rooms and straight jackets in a 1950's style asylum :joker:. "Oh gosh no, don't condemn someone to the horrors of a psych ward, that's barbaric, they'll fare much better in min-sec with the junkies".

[AnnieK]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes

[Cherie]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes


Great post Annie

[Beso]

On the contrary, it was probably her mother's illness and her responsibility for her that tipped her over the edge. This is fairly common.

In fact, my own mother never really recovered from caring for her own mother in our home as she died, and it was a huge contributing factor in sparking her own severe mental health issues and alcoholism that eventually killed her too.

mate, i need to stop and think before i reply to that. so i won't.

[Beso]

I'm sorry but I find it quite baffling how people want to put this horrible bitch in a mental hospital, it's not mentioned anywhere she wasn't mentally sound - if she had have been I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it along side her alcoholism. It's a pretty straightforward case of major neglect and cruelty. Yes it sounds like she's had a bad time with her mum passing but that's no excuse to leave pets to starve to death...she managed to put a bottle to her mouth she could have managed to feed an animal and there is no excuse in my eyes.

****the dug!, am getting ****ed.

[user104658]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes


It's not about making excuses for this woman or get out of jail free cards, for the 700 billionth time. I honestly give up, I'm convinced people simply are not reading the posts.

Also, Annie, honestly it's wonderful that you are in control of your depression, although unfortunate that you have to suffer it at all.

However I think you should know (and tbh probably already do know) that it's not a "one size fits all" condition and there are plenty of people out there who are not lucky enough to have a handle on it. Something being true for you, as someone suffering from depression, is not necessarily true for everyone else. Especially as - and I'm going to be frank here - it seems like you are an educated and intelligent person and those qualities are a huge part of what would give you the self-awareness required to seek help. These things don't discriminate, however, and are in fact even more prevalent in lower socio-economic groups, who have lower levels of education and introspection in general, and wouldn't have a clue where to even start when it comes to seeking help before it's too late.

Which is WHY

...here we go again, god help me...

It is important to understand this woman's state of mind and how she got to that point. NOT to excuse her, NOT as a get out of jail free card, NOT to say that what she did was in any way OK, but to help identify these issues and intervene early in future BEFORE they / another person / an animal ends up suffering.

This actual specific woman - can she be helped? God's honest opinion, probably not. So whatever, lock her up... do whatever... it doesn't really matter, so long as there's still an effort to understand what actually happened and what lead to it. The major problem with insisting blue-in-the-face that someone who does something like this is "just scum", "just evil", "just lazy", "just" and brushing their perfectly evident psychological issues under the carpet (because what? Because "the system" didn't notice? No ****, they don't notice anything!) is that nothing changes and these incidents continue to happen.

"Burn the witch" saves fewer people / animals in future than "What happened to this woman". Yet narrow-minded people, in their anger, want to focus only on punishment at the expense of understanding even though it saves FEWER of the animals they're so up-in-arms about? Meh.

I just don't know why I bother, I already know that this is going to fly straight over the heads of anyone who didn't already "get it", and no doubt will only prompt another dozen "...but it's not an excuse!!121!1!" responses. Complete and utter waste of time. Stupid TS.

[Beso]

And how exactly do people become "scum"? Are they born "scum"? Are they just "scummy babies"?

You live in a world where the answer to that question is " :shrug: don't know don't care punish the scum". If the question is asked at all. Which seems doubtful.

I'd rather live in a world where we look for solutions to stop people ending up like this is the first place than one where we see the aftermath and grab our pitchforks. That's why it's important to acknowledge that this woman is clearly a psychological mess. Not to "excuse her". Nothing to do with her. But so that we understand it in an effort to stop others from becoming the same.

So, not looking for a visa to t'otherworld I'm afraid. Even if it does seem like a simpler existence. Easy answers with predefined boundaries, etc.

doing scummy things makes you scum.

[Beso]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes

do what i did, get a dog and cuddle it.xx

[user104658]

doing scummy things makes you scum.

And what makes you do scummy things? ..."being scum" by any chance?

[Beso]

It's not about making excuses for this woman or get out of jail free cards, for the 700 billionth time. I honestly give up, I'm convinced people simply are not reading the posts.

Also, Annie, honestly it's wonderful that you are in control of your depression, although unfortunate that you have to suffer it at all.

However I think you should know (and tbh probably already do know) that it's not a "one size fits all" condition and there are plenty of people out there who are not lucky enough to have a handle on it. Something being true for you, as someone suffering from depression, is not necessarily true for everyone else. Especially as - and I'm going to be frank here - it seems like you are an educated and intelligent person and those qualities are a huge part of what would give you the self-awareness required to seek help. These things don't discriminate, however, and are in fact even more prevalent in lower socio-economic groups, who have lower levels of education and introspection in general, and wouldn't have a clue where to even start when it comes to seeking help before it's too late.

Which is WHY

...here we go again, god help me...

It is important to understand this woman's state of mind and how she got to that point. NOT to excuse her, NOT as a get out of jail free card, NOT to say that what she did was in any way OK, but to help identify these issues and intervene early in future BEFORE they / another person / an animal ends up suffering.

This actual specific woman - can she be helped? God's honest opinion, probably not. So whatever, lock her up... do whatever... it doesn't really matter, so long as there's still an effort to understand what actually happened and what lead to it. The major problem with insisting blue-in-the-face that someone who does something like this is "just scum", "just evil", "just lazy", "just" and brushing their perfectly evident psychological issues under the carpet (because what? Because "the system" didn't notice? No ****, they don't notice anything!) is that nothing changes and these incidents continue to happen.

"Burn the witch" saves fewer people / animals in future than "What happened to this woman". Yet narrow-minded people, in their anger, want to focus only on punishment at the expense of understanding even though it saves FEWER of the animals they're so up-in-arms about? Meh.

I just don't know why I bother, I already know that this is going to fly straight over the heads of anyone who didn't already "get it", and no doubt will only prompt another dozen "...but it's not an excuse!!121!1!" responses. Complete and utter waste of time. Stupid TS.

good read, but in this scummy gummy's case you got depression/mental issues etc muddled up with alcoholism.

[Beso]

And what makes you do scummy things? ..."being scum" by any chance?

are we discussing decomposing dogs or my nostrils?

[user104658]

good read, but in this scummy gummy's case you got depression/mental issues etc muddled up with alcoholism.

No.

[Marsh.]

I'm sorry but I find it quite baffling how people want to put this horrible bitch in a mental hospital, it's not mentioned anywhere she wasn't mentally sound - if she had have been I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it along side her alcoholism.

:conf:

Sorry, you find someone with alcoholism "mentally sound"?

[Beso]

come on t, she will have kicked that dog long before all the creepy house stuff. the old ugly alkie is only alive cause her mum sadly suffered from Alzheimer's

[Marsh.]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes

Surely someone who has suffered depression would know that this BIB is not as simple as that.

I am someone who has suffered with it on and off for years and can honestly say plucking up the courage to talk to someone about it is probably the hardest thing I've ever done. Even admitting to myself that I had a problem was a big challenge before talking to anyone else.

[Marsh.]

good read, but in this scummy gummy's case you got depression/mental issues etc muddled up with alcoholism.

Yes, because alcoholism and addiction aren't "mental issues"? :rolleyes:

[Beso]

Yes, because alcoholism and addiction aren't "mental issues"? :rolleyes:

i have been diagnosed with depression and could lapse into the other easily but roll away.x





my dog tells me no.

[user104658]

Yes, because alcoholism and addiction aren't "mental issues"? :rolleyes:

Sadly, it's still the case that most people don't think that they are. People still want to believe that it's fundamentally a "choice". The reality is that most cases of true alcoholism are entirely wrapped up in depression and various anxiety disorders.

[Marsh.]

i have been diagnosed with depression and could lapse into the other easily but roll away.x

You've not answered my question.

[Kazanne]

Wow..just wow...the amount of baiting and plain nastiness in this thread is quie amazing. I suffer from depression (medicated)...have done for many years, I also nursed my mum during this depression whilst she was dying, sorted her affairs and got my dad settled etc....I never once let my house go, starved my cats or neglected my son. A lot of people here seem to think depression and mental illness is a "get out of jail" card. It's not, it's something you live with...I have days where getting out of bed is the absolute worst thing I can think of, days when I feel everyone would be better off without me etc etc....it takes everything I can do to shower but if this woman was that low in my opinion, she should have sought help....there s no excuse or justification to subject anything, or anyone to the horrors these animals suffered. Should she be in prison.....yes again imo, closely monitored and provided the medication she needs. She shouldn't be in a hospital system that is buckled at best where people are waiting for treatment without having committed crimes

:clap1::clap1::clap1: well said Annie.

[Beso]

You've not answered my question.

go to your DR and ask for whiskey because your head tells you.

[Marsh.]

go to your DR and ask for whiskey because your head tells you.

Again, you've not answered the question.

I take it these random statements you make are some strange attempts at "humour"?

[Beso]

Again, you've not answered the question.

I take it these random statements you make are some strange attempts at "humour"?

you answered it yourself in your first response.:conf:

[Marsh.]

you answered it yourself in your first response.:conf:

So you're not going to provide your opinion or expand on the point in discussion?

Almost as though you had a baseless "point" to begin with really.

[Beso]

thought it was obvious that the woman chose drink over her animals. nothing but weakness and selfishness on show, everyone likes to use mental issues as an excuse for her alcoholism when we all know it's the body that is dependent, not the mind.. like i said! to hell with the dogs, i'm pissed.

[user104658]

thought it was obvious that the woman chose drink over her animals. nothing but weakness and selfishness on show, everyone likes to use mental issues as an excuse for her alcoholism when we all know it's the body that is dependent, not the mind.. like i said! to hell with the dogs, i'm pissed.

Awesome, you have aptly demonstrated that you have precisely zero understanding of either alcoholism or mental health. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and so your posts can be comfortably ignored.

:wavey:

[Kazanne]

Awesome, you have aptly demonstrated that you have precisely zero understanding of either alcoholism or mental health. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and so your posts can be comfortably ignored.

:wavey:

Well by that token,the same could be said about your posts,everyone is entitalled to their opinions yours isn't any more valid than others on here,and don't presume 'WE' have no idea about alcoholism or mental health,I certainly do,you don't know anymore about this case than anyone else,some think she needs help,I think she needs a heffty sentence and a ban for ever keeping animals again,it doesn't take much to open a tin of food and feed an animal.

[user104658]

Well by that token,the same could be said about your posts,everyone is entitalled to their opinions yours isn't any more valid than others on here,and don't presume 'WE' have no idea about alcoholism or mental health,I certainly do,you don't know anymore about this case than anyone else,some think she needs help,I think she needs a heffty sentence and a ban for ever keeping animals again,it doesn't take much to open a tin of food and feed an animal.

Parmnion is not sharing an opinion about this case, but making a broad sweeping statement about alcoholism and mental health in general. Of course you are absolutely entitled to think that those opinions are valid - even if they do go against decades of studies into the causes of alcoholism - that's up to you.

I know that it's bull**** and I also am convinced that it's based on nothing more than his personal prejudice... so I (personally) am entirely comfortable in now disregarding his posts. :hee:

[bots]

I have seen alcoholism and depression up close. The lady in question while in a deep state of despair, jobless and about to lose her home, was still capable of feeding and looking after her 4 dogs. So, with my direct experience, I would suggest in this case, this lady was entirely responsible for her actions, which is what its all about when deciding if someone should serve a prison sentence or not.

[user104658]

I have seen alcoholism and depression up close. The lady in question while in a deep state of despair, jobless and about to lose her home, was still capable of feeding and looking after her 4 dogs. So, with my direct experience, I would suggest in this case, this lady was entirely responsible for her actions, which is what its all about when deciding if someone should serve a prison sentence or not.
So have I, as previously mentioned I watched it kill my mother. Yet even at her absolute worst, she treated her dog like a beloved child, cared for it immaculately. Cared for it and looked after it far better than she cared for herself, always.

So again, that's not the point.

Like I said earlier in the thread, these issues are not "one size fits all", in fact, every single case of depression / anxiety / addiction is different. That's why it's so hard to treat. Some people can take a pill and have it make a huge difference, others will be no better on the same pill, or worse. Some are unfixable.

You can not look at one example, or even a hundred examples, and say "well this case should be exactly the same".

It's not chickenpox.

[joeysteele]

So have I, as previously mentioned I watched it kill my mother. Yet even at her absolute worst, she treated her dog like a beloved child, cared for it immaculately. Cared for it and looked after it far better than she cared for herself, always.

So again, that's not the point.

Like I said earlier in the thread, these issues are not "one size fits all", in fact, every single case of depression / anxiety / addiction is different. That's why it's so hard to treat. Some people can take a pill and have it make a huge difference, others will be no better on the same pill, or worse. Some are unfixable.

You can not look at one example, or even a hundred examples, and say "well this case should be exactly the same".

It's not chickenpox.

That's a really good post TS,I agree with it all.

More thinking as you do on this would help remove the stigma there still remains to be as to depression and other mental health issues.

We don't know if this woman had mental health issues or if it was plain cruelty but she was hardly even looking after herself.
Like you I just think there are other questions that remain in this case,a case like you I am still horrified at as to the suffering of the animals.

[DemolitionRed]

I have seen alcoholism and depression up close. The lady in question while in a deep state of despair, jobless and about to lose her home, was still capable of feeding and looking after her 4 dogs. So, with my direct experience, I would suggest in this case, this lady was entirely responsible for her actions, which is what its all about when deciding if someone should serve a prison sentence or not.

That's like saying "I have seen someone with cancer and having chemo but they were still capable of functioning to do the necessary tasks therefore, if she could do it, everyone with cancer and on chemo must be able to cope".

There are many different types of depression and depression can co-occur and confound other hidden mental conditions. Mix mental illness with alcohol, (which is often used to numb anxiety) and it often is a recipe to disaster.

[DemolitionRed]

Doesn't actually say anywhere that she was diagnosed with a medical illness, so that's an amazing diagnosis you've made there. It says she was "drinking heavily" (although it also said she couldn't afford cleaning material or pet food), that she was "depressed" ( following the loss of her mother (although it didn't say she suffers from depression). Despite the horror of the situation and the real possibility that the woman is just scum, some people knee-jerk to it not being their fault. I'm sure when she was sentenced her mental state would have been taken into account.

and your diagnosis that she wasn't mentally ill is a little baffling, especially you being a lawyer and all. You must be aware of what happened to the "Bradley Report" and surely you are aware of PRT reports on mental health within the prison system.

At least one quarter of women who end up in prison are later shown to be suffering from mental illness and most of those women are not properly diagnosed before a release appointment with a psychiatrist has been made. Its perfectly normal for post sentence assessments of mental health to be made on and after release and not before trial or during prison time.

The judicial system is hugely floored when it comes to mental health and I know this because (and I've mentioned this before) my father is a consultant psychiatrist who comes face to face with previously undiagnosed ex cons on a weekly basis.

[bots]

and your diagnosis that she wasn't mentally ill is a little baffling, especially you being a lawyer and all. You must be aware of what happened to the "Bradley Report" and surely you are aware of PRT reports on mental health within the prison system.

At least one quarter of women who end up in prison are later shown to be suffering from mental illness and most of those women are not properly diagnosed before a release appointment with a psychiatrist has been made. Its perfectly normal for post sentence assessments of mental health to be made on and after release and not before trial or during prison time.

The judicial system is hugely floored when it comes to mental health and I know this because (and I've mentioned this before) my father is a consultant psychiatrist who comes face to face with previously undiagnosed ex cons on a weekly basis.

That's as maybe. There is a simple principle that is the center of the issue here. Was she responsible for her own actions, yes or no. If she was, then she deserved a prison sentence, if she was not, then she should have gone to a medical facility.

No-one that has contributed to this thread knows that. That is for the judge and the court to decide, and guess what, they did and she went to prison. While its good to have a balanced debate and care for those that are not mentally stable. It should be acknowledged that there are actually some bad people in the world that deserve all they get, and if that means a prison sentence, so be it.

[Kizzy]

A friend of mine who is a dog walker/rescue worker campaigned furiously for months on FB to get her shut down, and to stop donations of pet food to her as she was re- selling it!

[Kazanne]

A friend of mine who is a dog walker/rescue worker campaigned furiously for months on FB to get her shut down, and to stop donations of pet food to her as she was re- selling it!

Well that puts a whole new slant on things Kizzy,I am now convinced she was just a cruel ,heartless bastard,who could look after herself in so much she has her nails polished,her face full of food and booze,maybe she used the money she got for selling her donated dog food,pathetic piece of trash.

[Marsh.]

thought it was obvious that the woman chose drink over her animals. nothing but weakness and selfishness on show, everyone likes to use mental issues as an excuse for her alcoholism when we all know it's the body that is dependent, not the mind.. like i said! to hell with the dogs, i'm pissed.

Oh dear, if you really do suffer from depression then some research into mental health would be really beneficial.

Your snobbery and superiority complex is extremely transparent. Let's not pretend this woman was treating herself like royalty whilst abandoning the animals. She too was living in filth and like an animal. No sane person does that.

[Cherie]

That's as maybe. There is a simple principle that is the center of the issue here. Was she responsible for her own actions, yes or no. If she was, then she deserved a prison sentence, if she was not, then she should have gone to a medical facility.

No-one that has contributed to this thread knows that. That is for the judge and the court to decide, and guess what, they did and she went to prison. While its good to have a balanced debate and care for those that are not mentally stable. It should be acknowledged that there are actually some bad people in the world that deserve all they get, and if that means a prison sentence, so be it.

.

[user104658]

That's as maybe. There is a simple principle that is the center of the issue here. Was she responsible for her own actions, yes or no. If she was, then she deserved a prison sentence, if she was not, then she should have gone to a medical facility.

No-one that has contributed to this thread knows that. That is for the judge and the court to decide, and guess what, they did and she went to prison. While its good to have a balanced debate and care for those that are not mentally stable. It should be acknowledged that there are actually some bad people in the world that deserve all they get, and if that means a prison sentence, so be it.

There are people in the world who are just bad / corrupt, certainly. The type of people who drink themselves into oblivion and live in filth, however, are mentally unwell. You could make the case that she may well be both, I suppose, but the argument that she is a psychologically normal person? It just falls flat. Psychologically normal people just don't live like that.

Also, just to add... this idea that things are "for the system to decide" and that their decisions are beyond scrutiny / untouchable / not up for debate? Nah. You'll never get me to agree to that, it's authoritarian nonsense. Not only are their decisions fair game for examination and debate... it is the duty of anyone who actually cares about justice to do so. Because whilst our justice system - in global comparison - is still a fairly good one... it is FAR from perfect. A long, long way.

[Niamh.]

There are people in the world who are just bad / corrupt, certainly. The type of people who drink themselves into oblivion and live in filth, however, are mentally unwell. You could make the case that she may well be both, I suppose, but the argument that she is a psychologically normal person? It just falls flat. Psychologically normal people just don't live like that.

Also, just to add... this idea that things are "for the system to decide" and that their decisions are beyond scrutiny / untouchable / not up for debate? Nah. You'll never get me to agree to that, it's authoritarian nonsense. Not only are their decisions fair game for examination and debate... it is the duty of anyone who actually cares about justice to do so. Because whilst our justice system - in global comparison - is still a fairly good one... it is FAR from perfect. A long, long way.

Yes absolutely, in fact I'd go so far as to say that scrutiny of the justice system are vital and what made it what it is today and what will help it to evolve as we do

[joeysteele]

There are people in the world who are just bad / corrupt, certainly. The type of people who drink themselves into oblivion and live in filth, however, are mentally unwell. You could make the case that she may well be both, I suppose, but the argument that she is a psychologically normal person? It just falls flat. Psychologically normal people just don't live like that.

Also, just to add... this idea that things are "for the system to decide" and that their decisions are beyond scrutiny / untouchable / not up for debate? Nah. You'll never get me to agree to that, it's authoritarian nonsense. Not only are their decisions fair game for examination and debate... it is the duty of anyone who actually cares about justice to do so. Because whilst our justice system - in global comparison - is still a fairly good one... it is FAR from perfect. A long, long way.



You can say that again.

[Marsh.]

[/B]


You can say that again.

Because whilst our justice system - in global comparison - is still a fairly good one... it is FAR from perfect. A long, long way.

[Kazanne]

Because whilst our justice system - in global comparison - is still a fairly good one... it is FAR from perfect. A long, long way.

:laugh:You naughty boy Marsh:hee:

[DemolitionRed]

Look at the picture and notice amongst the filth are dozens upon dozens of DVD’s The dog food packets don’t contain dog food, they contain more DVD’s.
A high percentage of animal hoarders also hoard other things and depending on how severe the OCD or OCPD is, they often keep all their hoards in a disorganised mess which eventually becomes disorganized filth. People with OCD have addictive personalities and often have alcohol or drug abuse problems.
What starts off as good intensions very often end up in serious neglect and even death of the animals.

Its distressing to see those pictures. The one thing that makes me extremely angry is animal cruelty, in fact the only time I’ve been arrested was for attacking a woman who was being cruel to a horse. Sometimes animals need a voice but those poor animals in this case didn’t have that voice before many of them had suffered from excruciating conditions and even death.

Animal hoarding is a real problem in this country. The RSPCA are always removing large stocks of animals from over crowded homes. The trouble is, this doesn’t address the hoarders condition and no sooner have the animals been removed than they are collecting again. People should always be suspicious if they know someone who’s menagerie of animals is getting bigger and bigger because there’s a good chance they are sinking into mental illness and for the animals sake, that mental illness needs to be addressed sooner than later.

[Marsh.]

The dog food packets don’t contain dog food, they contain more DVD’s.

This tickled me so much. :joker:

[Marsh.]

I only just noticed the "Tango" shower gel. :omgno:

[bots]

Its amazing how many in this thread think they are better judges of character from a few lines in a crappy tabloid that most have deemed not be be given the title of a newspaper in other threads - than the judge that had all the relevant information in front of him ... you must be very clever :whistle:

[Beso]

Parmnion is not sharing an opinion about this case, but making a broad sweeping statement about alcoholism and mental health in general. Of course you are absolutely entitled to think that those opinions are valid - even if they do go against decades of studies into the causes of alcoholism - that's up to you.

I know that it's bull**** and I also am convinced that it's based on nothing more than his personal prejudice... so I (personally) am entirely comfortable in now disregarding his posts. :hee:

good job i aint got depression anymore.:shrug:

[user104658]

Its amazing how many in this thread think they are better judges of character from a few lines in a crappy tabloid that most have deemed not be be given the title of a newspaper in other threads - than the judge that had all the relevant information in front of him ... you must be very clever :whistle:
Yawn. This again?

[Cherie]

Its amazing how many in this thread think they are better judges of character from a few lines in a crappy tabloid that most have deemed not be be given the title of a newspaper in other threads - than the judge that had all the relevant information in front of him ... you must be very clever :whistle:


Indeed :joker:

[Cherie]

Yes absolutely, in fact I'd go so far as to say that scrutiny of the justice system are vital and what made it what it is today and what will help it to evolve as we do

She was sentenced to 18 weeks, will be out in 12 what's to scrutinise in this case, apart from whether she should receive some kind of counselling?

[Kizzy]

It was nothing more than a money making scam, she didn't care about the animals she wanted donations of cash or things she could sell for cash. There were blankets and beds generously given too and they were found in a skip, that's how the scam was discovered.

[DemolitionRed]

18 weeks and she will go back to being reclusive and attempting to hoard animals again.

[Cherie]

It was nothing more than a money making scam, she didn't care about the animals she wanted donations of cash or things she could sell for cash. There were blankets and beds generously given too and they were found in a skip, that's how the scam was discovered.

18 weeks and she will go back to being reclusive and attempting to hoard animals again.


Hoarders don't put stuff in skips

[DemolitionRed]

It was nothing more than a money making scam, she didn't care about the animals she wanted donations of cash or things she could sell for cash. There were blankets and beds generously given too and they were found in a skip, that's how the scam was discovered.

What is this woman's history though Kizzy? Had she formerly been an animal lover who, for all the right reasons collected homeless beasties?

There certainly is a type who would hoard and neglect animals as a form of control and monetary gain but they tend to be a lot more sociable and live in uncluttered and relatively clean houses.

[DemolitionRed]

Hoarders don't put stuff in skips

She hoarded animals and she hoarded DVD's. We can't deny that.

[Niamh.]

She was sentenced to 18 weeks, will be out in 12 what's to scrutinise in this case, apart from whether she should receive some kind of counselling?



I was just responding to TS point about the justice system and whether or not it's ok to scrutinise it in a general sense :shrug:

[bots]

I was just responding to TS point about the justice system and whether or not it's ok to scrutinise it in a general sense :shrug:

its great to scrutinise it, but it should be done from a position of knowing all the facts of the case .... not a paragraph and a few pics in a tabloid :laugh:

[Kizzy]

What is this woman's history though Kizzy? Had she formerly been an animal lover who, for all the right reasons collected homeless beasties?

There certainly is a type who would hoard and neglect animals as a form of control and monetary gain but they tend to be a lot more sociable and live in uncluttered and relatively clean houses.

She's just the money grabbing type like those who churn puppies out for £400-600 a pop on gumtree all bred in squalor.

[user104658]

She's just the money grabbing type like those who churn puppies out for £400-600 a pop on gumtree all bred in squalor.
Benefits scum, Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Benefits scum, Kizzy.

dyawannafite?...

[Cherie]

Benefits scum, Kizzy.

:joker:when all your other baiting comments failed, time to fall back on old reliable

[user104658]

:joker:when all your other baiting comments failed, time to fall back on old reliable
What?

[Niamh.]

its great to scrutinise it, but it should be done from a position of knowing all the facts of the case .... not a paragraph and a few pics in a tabloid :laugh:

Well, I'm probably never going to know every fact of every case.....I will still give my opinion though :hee:

[Marsh.]

its great to scrutinise it, but it should be done from a position of knowing all the facts of the case .... not a paragraph and a few pics in a tabloid :laugh:

Oh so this section of the forum is null and void.

NO COMMENTING ON THINGS YOU WERE NOT PERSONAL WITNESS TO!

[bots]

Oh so this section of the forum is null and void.

NO COMMENTING ON THINGS YOU WERE NOT PERSONAL WITNESS TO!

I've seen a lot of fantasy in this thread based on nothing more substantial than pure conjecture. In order to question the validity of a case and the appropriateness of its sentencing, one does need a certain level of factual information to base conclusions on

[Marsh.]

I've seen a lot of fantasy in this thread based on nothing more substantial than pure conjecture. In order to question the validity of a case and the appropriateness of its sentencing, one does need a certain level of factual information to base conclusions on

Nobody's come to "conclusions", they're discussing.

[Niamh.]

I've seen a lot of fantasy in this thread based on nothing more substantial than pure conjecture. In order to question the validity of a case and the appropriateness of its sentencing, one does need a certain level of factual information to base conclusions on

Oh stop, people are just giving their opinions, I mean, imo it's not way out there to think that conclusion is a possibility when a person lives their life around that much filth and animal corpses. If someone I knew in real life lived like that I'd be pretty worried about their mental well being, wouldn't you?

[bots]

Oh stop, people are just giving their opinions, I mean, imo it's not way out there to think that conclusion is a possibility when a person lives their life around that much filth and animal corpses. If someone I knew in real life lived like that I'd be pretty worried about their mental well being, wouldn't you?

I see attributing something to mental health issues as a way of making something that is basically abhorrent capable of being understood/accepted, when 9 times out of 10, the person was just nasty. There are cases of course where mental health is a genuine reason, but this one doesn't strike me as one of them. Not least because she had a lawyer defending her who if they were half way competent would use that as the first line of defense. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Marsh.]

I see attributing something to mental health issues as a way of making something that is basically abhorrent capable of being understood/accepted, when 9 times out of 10, the person was just nasty. There are cases of course where mental health is a genuine reason, but this one doesn't strike me as one of them. Not least because she had a lawyer defending her who if they were half way competent would use that as the first line of defense. We will just have to agree to disagree.

So, you can make a conclusion based on your limited knowledge, but god forbid anyone else discuss anything else involved in cases like this?

:joker:

[bots]

So, you can make a conclusion based on your limited knowledge, but god forbid anyone else discuss anything else involved in cases like this?

:joker:

The difference being that I am going with what the judge decided, not seeing anything wrong with that decision. I have no need to get into conjecture

[joeysteele]

I have sat in many courts and seen Judges and Magistrates make a fair number of bad decisions no matter what is in front of them.

[user104658]

I've seen a lot of fantasy in this thread based on nothing more substantial than pure conjecture. In order to question the validity of a case and the appropriateness of its sentencing, one does need a certain level of factual information to base conclusions on
I've stated multiple times that it's possible to accept the validity of a case and the sentencing and still be interested in understanding the root causes of the offense.

This unfortunately doesn't fit the stock response of "OMG y u make excuse for such demon that kill dog" and has therefore been repeatedly overlooked.

As for conjecture, as always, everyone is more than happy to accept it if the conjecture happens to fit their own prejudice and gut reaction, and all the better if it can be conveniently backed up with a quick "But a judge sez, so lol lol lol"

You're perfectly welcome to read back through the thread and count how many times I've said that my interest in understanding this woman's mental state has absolutely nothing to do with absolving or excusing her as an individual, and everything to do with preventing individuals from becoming like her in the first place through early intervention. I doubt you will, so I'd invite you to accept my insurance that it's been stated numerous times, and in various ways.

NO ONE is "born bad". This person's abhorrent behaviour - her "nastiness" - has a cause. Happy, balanced individuals simply don't do these things and it baffles me that anyone fails to understand that.

[Marsh.]

The difference being that I am going with what the judge decided, not seeing anything wrong with that decision. I have no need to get into conjecture

Oh, so your opinion puts you onside with the judge so only your input to the discussion is valid?

:joker: This forum never fails to amuse.

[Cherie]

It was nothing more than a money making scam, she didn't care about the animals she wanted donations of cash or things she could sell for cash. There were blankets and beds generously given too and they were found in a skip, that's how the scam was discovered.


So was this supposed to be an animal sanctuary? Did she live at the address or just keep her animals there? If she had no gas or electric I can't see how she lived there full time in reality

[user104658]

So was this supposed to be an animal sanctuary? Did she live at the address or just keep her animals there? If she had no gas or electric I can't see how she lived there full time in reality
Actually it's bewilderingly common... I've heard the local junkies talk about similar quite often. Their gas and electricity are on top-up keys, they all have their own flats but each basically never has gas, and rarely electricity. 5-10 or so all chip in to get a £10 top up and then go and sit around in one flat to charge phones / watch TV etc.

Either that or they try to unplug things in the shop to charge their phone :/.

Their own flats end up dark, cold, damp and filthy and all they really do is sleep there.

[Cherie]

Actually it's bewilderingly common... I've heard the local junkies talk about similar quite often. Their gas and electricity are on top-up keys, they all have their own flats but each basically never has gas, and rarely electricity. 5-10 or so all chip in to get a £10 top up and then go and sit around in one flat to charge phones / watch TV etc.

Either that or they try to unplug things in the shop to charge their phone :/.

Their own flats end up dark, cold, damp and filthy and all they really do is sleep there.

It might be, be but generally they end up looking like they sleep rough. This woman has her hair coloured, her nails are painted, her clothes look clean so she obviously has access to hot water and a washing machine, I want to hear more about the "scam" as if it was meant to be a sanctuary for animals and she took public donations to look after the animals, while living at her Mums then it throws a different light on her so call mental health issues in my view

[Kazanne]

The difference being that I am going with what the judge decided, not seeing anything wrong with that decision. I have no need to get into conjecture

For what it's worth I agree with you,a judge has seen fit to sentence her so he must have felt the case needed it rather than some trips to a shrink,or perhaps the judge was mentally ill.:hee:

[user104658]

It might be, be but generally they end up looking like they sleep rough. This woman has her hair coloured, her nails are painted, her clothes look clean so she obviously has access to hot water and a washing machine, I want to hear more about the "scam" as if it was meant to be a sanctuary for animals and she took public donations to look after the animals, while living at her Mums then it throws a different light on her so call mental health issues in my view

It depends on what you consider to be within the scope of mental health, I suppose. I can fully accept that she willingly and knowingly allowed animals to suffer for her own financial gain, I haven't at any point suggested that she's definitely some poor little lady who had good intentions but just couldn't cope, but really it makes no difference to my stance.

Someone who deliberately causes animals to suffer, and then just leaves them rotting in their kennels, for a few £ is so severely lacking in empathy that it's hard to make any case for them being "of sound mind", and there will be a cause. It's worth finding out why she is like she is, not for her, but because understanding these things is all we can do to stop other people going down the same sort of path.

People make whole careers out of trying to understand the psychology of violent criminals and murderers - what makes them violent, what gave them the urge to kill, etc. It's not to excuse them or have them set free, we're talking about extremely dangerous individuals most of whom will never be rehabilitated in any meaningful way... it's because understanding what creates a "monster" like that is how you know when to step in early to stop it happening again.

It would be much easier to say "Judge says guilty, throw him in the dungeon and forget he ever existed!" ... but isn't it worth trying to gain something? Their actions can't be reversed.

[joeysteele]

It depends on what you consider to be within the scope of mental health, I suppose. I can fully accept that she willingly and knowingly allowed animals to suffer for her own financial gain, I haven't at any point suggested that she's definitely some poor little lady who had good intentions but just couldn't cope, but really it makes no difference to my stance.

Someone who deliberately causes animals to suffer, and then just leaves them rotting in their kennels, for a few £ is so severely lacking in empathy that it's hard to make any case for them being "of sound mind", and there will be a cause. It's worth finding out why she is like she is, not for her, but because understanding these things is all we can do to stop other people going down the same sort of path.

People make whole careers out of trying to understand the psychology of violent criminals and murderers - what makes them violent, what gave them the urge to kill, etc. It's not to excuse them or have them set free, we're talking about extremely dangerous individuals most of whom will never be rehabilitated in any meaningful way... it's because understanding what creates a "monster" like that is how you know when to step in early to stop it happening again.

It would be much easier to say "Judge says guilty, throw him in the dungeon and forget he ever existed!" ... but isn't it worth trying to gain something? Their actions can't be reversed.

That has in my view been the essence of all your posts on this case and issue.

It is why from what you and DemRed said,I altered my thinking from the hard tone I had before.
18 weeks seem a paltry sentence anyway for such suffering to animals and so many of them,that maybe the Judge has taken into account other 'facts' as to this woman's real state of mind.
That we don't know but would like to know.

I agree with Kazanne and Kizzy too,maybe she was just plain bad and they both love animals as I do and I am sure you do too.
No justification for what she did but the reasons why it happened,what was she really thinking,how do we look out for and help stop the same happening elsewhere,they are very relevant matters to questioning parts of this case.

Maybe she needed some considerable months rather than just weeks of being made to see how bad were the things she has done here.
Digging deeper,may have unearthed other factors as to her too, maybe not too.

I am and I think a good number of people are, interested in why people do the things they do,good and bad.

[Niamh.]

I see attributing something to mental health issues as a way of making something that is basically abhorrent capable of being understood/accepted, when 9 times out of 10, the person was just nasty. There are cases of course where mental health is a genuine reason, but this one doesn't strike me as one of them. Not least because she had a lawyer defending her who if they were half way competent would use that as the first line of defense. We will just have to agree to disagree.

That's fair enough, and maybe you're right, either way it is an horrific way for that woman herself to be living. I just couldn't imagine anyone being able to be happy living in such a way

[DemolitionRed]

I was going to make a comment but then I keep repeating myself, repeating myself, repeating myself...:hehe:

[Niamh.]

I was going to make a comment but then I keep repeating myself, repeating myself, repeating myself...:hehe:

:laugh:

I know. I guess there's not really alot more to say on this story, you either think she's just plain evil or that she's mentally unstable. I'm sure everyone agrees though that what happened to those animals was disgusting and horrific and I hope that whatever happens to this woman after she's released from prison that she will never be allowed to keep animals again and that, that will be checked up on too

[Cherie]

It depends on what you consider to be within the scope of mental health, I suppose. I can fully accept that she willingly and knowingly allowed animals to suffer for her own financial gain, I haven't at any point suggested that she's definitely some poor little lady who had good intentions but just couldn't cope, but really it makes no difference to my stance.

Someone who deliberately causes animals to suffer, and then just leaves them rotting in their kennels, for a few £ is so severely lacking in empathy that it's hard to make any case for them being "of sound mind", and there will be a cause. It's worth finding out why she is like she is, not for her, but because understanding these things is all we can do to stop other people going down the same sort of path.

People make whole careers out of trying to understand the psychology of violent criminals and murderers - what makes them violent, what gave them the urge to kill, etc. It's not to excuse them or have them set free, we're talking about extremely dangerous individuals most of whom will never be rehabilitated in any meaningful way... it's because understanding what creates a "monster" like that is how you know when to step in early to stop it happening again.

It would be much easier to say "Judge says guilty, throw him in the dungeon and forget he ever existed!" ... but isn't it worth trying to gain something? Their actions can't be reversed.


I think you underestimate how selfish/evil people can be when money is at stake, nature v nurture is another debate all together.

[user104658]

I think you underestimate how selfish/evil people can be when money is at stake, nature v nurture is another debate all together.

When large sums of money are at stake, yes, that tends to be able to corrupt most people. We're talking about selling second hand dog food, though.

[Kizzy]

When large sums of money are at stake, yes, that tends to be able to corrupt most people. We're talking about selling second hand dog food, though.

We are a nation of animal lovers, if you set up as a 'rescue' then basically all you have to do is sit back and wait for the donations to roll in, generously gifted sacks of food and tins can rack up a tidy profit!
These poor animals were taken by loving owners who could no longer cope in the hope the would find a caring person to help rehome them... most are now dead :(

[Cherie]

When large sums of money are at stake, yes, that tends to be able to corrupt most people. We're talking about selling second hand dog food, though.


People have been murdered for a few pounds :shrug:

We are a nation of animal lovers, if you set up as a 'rescue' then basically all you have to do is sit back and wait for the donations to roll in, generously gifted sacks of food and tins can rack up a tidy profit!
These poor animals were taken by loving owners who could no longer cope in the hope the would find a caring person to help rehome them... most are now dead :(


Awfully sad

[user104658]

People have been murdered for a few pounds :shrug:


Not by someone who was mentally stable.