Net migration to UK rises to 333,000

[Northern Monkey]

Net migration to UK rises to 333,000 - second highest on record
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

Camerons promise to get migration down to the tens of thousands is failing miserably.
Immigration is only going one way and that is up.This trend can't carry on.We live on a very tiny island and our cities are already jam packed.

What do you think can be done to get immigration down to managable levels?

[Kizzy]

Stop employers recruiting from abroad to get past the minimum wage laws?

[Livia]

Net migration to UK rises to 333,000 - second highest on record
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36382199

Camerons promise to get migration down to the tens of thousands is failing miserably.
Immigration is only going one way and that is up.This trend can't carry on.We live on a very tiny island and our cities are already jam packed.

What do you think can be done to get immigration down to managable levels?

Vote to leave the EU.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Look at Oz

They saw they had a boat refugee crisis so they said "anyone coming to this country on boats or makeshift vessels will not be allowed in, period, no matter what is happening in your country"

The people making money out of this got the message and it stopped. You have to be hard, not sentimental and decisive,.

[Livia]

Look at Oz

They saw they had a boat refugee crisis so they said "anyone coming to this country on boats or makeshift vessels will not be allowed in, period, no matter what is happening in your country"

The people making money out of this got the message and it stopped. You have to be hard, not sentimental and decisive,.

If you want to move to Oz you have to have something to offer their society, a trade at least, or a profession. You just have to show up in the UK.

[Kizzy]

I'm just gonna rock up like Jonny Depps dogs :laugh:

Seriously though I saw the headline that if we leave the EU migration will be down to zero....bullplop.

[Jack_]

WE'RE FULL! THERE'S NO ROOM! CLOSE THE BORDERS!!!!!1 grrr

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/61222000/jpg/_61222609_uk_habits_464.jpg

[Tom4784]

Vote to leave the EU.

And then we'll have to relax any new immigration laws that come from leaving the EU in order to trade with them. Leaving the EU will not affect immigration in the slightest.

[Crimson Dynamo]

WE'RE FULL! THERE'S NO ROOM! CLOSE THE BORDERS!!!!!1 grrr

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/61222000/jpg/_61222609_uk_habits_464.jpg

not sure what point you are making there other than to show that huge swathes of the UK are not fit for habitation?

[Jack_]

not sure what point you are making there other than to show that huge swathes of the UK are not fit for habitation?

:joker: great banta

[Crimson Dynamo]

:joker: great banta

well you go live in the purple bit for a few months and report back to me

:smug:

[user104658]

Well at least you managed to point out that it has increased "to" 333,000 which is slightly less hysterical than LT's thread of yesteryear in which he insisted that it had increased "by" 300,000 :joker:... ...

[Northern Monkey]

WE'RE FULL! THERE'S NO ROOM! CLOSE THE BORDERS!!!!!1 grrr

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/61222000/jpg/_61222609_uk_habits_464.jpg

So most of that uninhabited land is farmland.You suggest trying to get farmers to sell their land and create new cities to try and house and employ all these people?This would cost a fortune and create alot more polution.Not to mention the infrastructure needed.New roads,railways,busses,hospitals,prisons,police etc etc and what about the farming industry which is already suffering?Eventually the UK would just be one giant concrete jungle with no countryside left.
Something will have to be done eventually.We can only keep burying our heads in the sand for so long.

[user104658]

So most of that uninhabited land is farmland.You suggest trying to get farmers to sell their land and create new cities to try and house and employ all these people?This would cost a fortune and create alot more polution.Not to mention the infrastructure needed.New roads,railways,busses,hospitals,prisons,police etc etc and what about the farming industry which is already suffering?Eventually the UK would just be one giant concrete jungle with no countryside left.
Something will have to be done eventually.We can only keep burying our heads in the sand for so long.

Applies to the world tbh. We're ****ed.

http://www.worldometers.info/watch/world-population/

[joeysteele]

And then we'll have to relax any new immigration laws that come from leaving the EU in order to trade with them. Leaving the EU will not affect immigration in the slightest.

I agree.
Actually in my view,there is no way I can see the UK getting any noteworthy trade deal with the EU were we to leave without accepting EU citizens to come to the UK.
There would be hardly any chance at all I would say of any deal for the UK,being accepted by and then ratified by the remaining 27 EU nations, unless it involved the UK still accepting the free movement of EU citizens.

The only immigration we will likely be able to control is the one we actually can now if we wanted to, from the other nations of the World.
The very Nations we will probably need to suck up to to ensure any decent future for the UK.

This is another red herring from the out campaign side in my opinion,who really cannot even say what exactly should, or will be, the deal sought from the EU,even if with their antagonistic overtones, they could even negotiate any decent deal at all with the EU.

[Livia]

And then we'll have to relax any new immigration laws that come from leaving the EU in order to trade with them. Leaving the EU will not affect immigration in the slightest.

I beg to differ.

[bots]

Immigration is an issue, there is no hiding from it, and if the EU leaders had a bit of backbone they would deal with it. If we do end up out of the EU, it will be immigration worries that swung it.

Our illegal immigration won't go down, but the legal immigration will. We can and will dictate the terms under those circumstances.

[Kizzy]

I beg to differ.

So if we trade with the world as a non EU member state can you guarantee that trade deals will have no ties to freedom of movement?

[joeysteele]

So if we trade with the world as a non EU member state can you guarantee that trade deals will have no ties to freedom of movement?

No one can Kizzy.

I myself however,feel as sure as I can be that no way, will the 27 Nations we will be leaving behind with the EU we actually help to set up as it is now too,will any even just good trading deal with the UK be ratified by all those 27 Countries unless the UK fully accepts the free movement issue.

In or out, that will still go on,I really believe that.

[Johnnyuk123]

The EU is in a shambles. Leaving the EU means we get to decide who we trade with and we only sign up if we think it is good for Great Britain. All this negative nonsense of oh dear we will have to go cap in hand to the EU cos if we leave they are gonna make life hard for the UK is absolute scare monger rubbish. The EU needs the UK more than we need them.

[Kizzy]

Why's that then?..

[user104658]

The EU is in a shambles. Leaving the EU means we get to decide who we trade with and we only sign up if we think it is good for Great Britain.

This is an idea borne of an inflated sense of how great "Great" Britain still is, though. This idea that Britain can sift through the trading CV's of every other country and pick out the cream of the crop, and those countries will be happy to spark up lucrative trade agreements with us to the benefit of Britain... because who wouldn't want the honour of licking the UK's boots, right? :joker:

No. If the UK leaves the EU, and thus London's status as an access hub in Europe, I fear we will all very quickly learn just how irrelevant our little island is in global terms.

[joeysteele]

This is an idea borne of an inflated sense of how great "Great" Britain still is, though. This idea that Britain can sift through the trading CV's of every other country and pick out the cream of the crop, and those countries will be happy to spark up lucrative trade agreements with us to the benefit of Britain... because who wouldn't want the honour of licking the UK's boots, right? :joker:

No. If the UK leaves the EU, and thus London's status as an access hub in Europe, I fear we will all very quickly learn just how irrelevant our little island is in global terms.

Absolutely,very well put and I agree with every word.

[Kizzy]

Me too, we're the worlds dumping ground.. oh you want to put your nuclear power plant here? ok and you want to frack the shi* out of the place?
That's fine.... :idc:
What's that despot? you need some guns.... here you go!

[DemolitionRed]

I've already stated that I'm voting for out but I'm not kidding myself that if Brexit happens, and I doubt very much it will, we are going to hit tough times for a few years and because immigration boosts our economy, its the one thing the government will want to encourage.

As for trade deals, that's going to be a tough call and we can't speculate as to the sort of deals that will be made. One thing for certain is, Britain is a small Island with a big punch and its going to lose that punch if we pull out.

The only good I see in coming out is, we will be pulling away from global world order.

[the truth]

I agree.
Actually in my view,there is no way I can see the UK getting any noteworthy trade deal with the EU were we to leave without accepting EU citizens to come to the UK.
There would be hardly any chance at all I would say of any deal for the UK,being accepted by and then ratified by the remaining 27 EU nations, unless it involved the UK still accepting the free movement of EU citizens.

The only immigration we will likely be able to control is the one we actually can now if we wanted to, from the other nations of the World.
The very Nations we will probably need to suck up to to ensure any decent future for the UK.

This is another red herring from the out campaign side in my opinion,who really cannot even say what exactly should, or will be, the deal sought from the EU,even if with their antagonistic overtones, they could even negotiate any decent deal at all with the EU.

I don't think ive ever heard such nonsense lol
we could have our own points system like every other nation
controlled borders, catch illegal immigrants
encourage legal people with skills but also have no space for legitimate assylm seekers
also wed be allowed to bring in anyone we like from outside the EU cartel

[bots]

No one can Kizzy.

I myself however,feel as sure as I can be that no way, will the 27 Nations we will be leaving behind with the EU we actually help to set up as it is now too,will any even just good trading deal with the UK be ratified by all those 27 Countries unless the UK fully accepts the free movement issue.

In or out, that will still go on,I really believe that.

If immigration is considered a big enough issue, it will be controlled if we are out of the EU. Trade works both ways, the UK are one of the biggest purchasers in europe too, so no trade can be tied to free movement unless WE want it to be. It basically will all boil down to the economics of it at the end of the day. The government of the time will set the terms that are most advantageous, whereas now our hands are tied.

[MTVN]

Immigration is an issue, there is no hiding from it, and if the EU leaders had a bit of backbone they would deal with it. If we do end up out of the EU, it will be immigration worries that swung it.

Our illegal immigration won't go down, but the legal immigration will. We can and will dictate the terms under those circumstances.

I agree. We probably wouldn't have control over immigration if we wanted to stay in the singe market but most Leavers accept that now and there are plenty of alternatives available where we could control immigration.

I'm voting Remain and nothing that I hear from the Leave side has made me question my decision but the EU as a whole needs to rethink the migration issue. It's basically accepted now that Schengen has failed but free movement also needs to be rethought if the EU is to expand more and more. IMO the PMs deal is a start in that, even if the brake on benefits doesn't affect migrations levels at least it is a logical start to reforming EU immigration and a sensible measure

[joeysteele]

I don't think ive ever heard such nonsense lol
we could have our own points system like every other nation
controlled borders, catch illegal immigrants
encourage legal people with skills but also have no space for legitimate assylm seekers
also wed be allowed to bring in anyone we like from outside the EU cartel

We can bring in anyone from outside the EU now and indeed do,over 150,000 of them in the last year.

You are correct we could have a points system, could being the operative word, it is not a certainty and will in fact depend on what the EU demands from us as to any trading deal.
They are not just going to fall over and give us anything we want.

[the truth]

We can bring in anyone from outside the EU now and indeed do,over 150,000 of them in the last year.

You are correct we could have a points system, could being the operative word, it is not a certainty and will in fact depend on what the EU demands from us as to any trading deal.
They are not just going to fall over and give us anything we want.

theyre irrelevant to those decisions. what you also fail to factor is brexit will hurt those unelected crooks. it will see heads roll and the whole farce will simply have to become more realitstic and more democratic and accountable. heck if they manage to get rid of the crooks and the 109 billion missing euros and actually get their accounts passed and get youth unemployment to below 40% one day we the most successful nation in Europe may consider rejoining a new Europe...my heart bleeds for the greeks the italians, the portugueses and millions of other dirt poor eu members absolutely ensvaled to the eu leaders and merkel in particular, who is allowed to run germany and the eu simultaneously...lol talk about conflict of interests...the whole thing will sink regardless.

[Northern Monkey]

theyre irrelevant to those decisions. what you also fail to factor is brexit will hurt those unelected crooks. it will see heads roll and the whole farce will simply have to become more realitstic and more democratic and accountable. heck if they manage to get rid of the crooks and the 109 billion missing euros and actually get their accounts passed and get youth unemployment to below 40% one day we the most successful nation in Europe may consider rejoining a new Europe...my heart bleeds for the greeks the italians, the portugueses and millions of other dirt poor eu members absolutely ensvaled to the eu leaders and merkel in particular, who is allowed to run germany and the eu simultaneously...lol talk about conflict of interests...the whole thing will sink regardless.:thumbs:

[Kizzy]

We can bring in anyone from outside the EU now and indeed do,over 150,000 of them in the last year.

You are correct we could have a points system, could being the operative word, it is not a certainty and will in fact depend on what the EU demands from us as to any trading deal.
They are not just going to fall over and give us anything we want.

So being out of the EU won't change a thing, do you think brexiteers know this?

[Northern Monkey]

So being out of the EU won't change a thing, do you think brexiteers know this?

We will be able to CHOOSE who we want/need from anywhere on the globe whilst keeping immigration numbers sensible.Doctors,technicians,refugees etc etc.Rather than thousands of strawberry pickers,cleaners or benefits migrants who end up getting benefits to top up their incomes.We will have less unemployed as the people we select will be skilled and targeted for the areas they are needed and more jobs for us.

[the truth]

So being out of the EU won't change a thing, do you think brexiteers know this?

it will change a lot for those poor people still in this corrupt illegal cartel

it will enable us to do what we like trade all over the world let in who we want when we want and yes it will also help us allow some of the REAL desperate genuine refugees not zillions of illegal immigrants , many of whom bring no skills and refuse to integrate...some also are serious criminals and some are potential terrorists. if we select who we want we can bring in thousands of fantastic hard working people, we can vet those illegal people and we can help the real victims. oh and we can look after british people too who have paid into the system their whole lives. or is looking after our fellow brits now considered racist too?

[joeysteele]

So being out of the EU won't change a thing, do you think brexiteers know this?

Probably they do Kizzy but maybe do not want to acknowledge that fact.

We had a nett migration of 334,000 last year of which only 184,000 were from the EU.

If we come out of the EU and firmly refuse to do any deal with the EU that involves the free movement of EU citizens, then we would be able to stop people coming from the EU to the UK.

If that is, and for me it is a mighty big 'if' but also in my view probably impossible we could get any trading deal with the EU,where all the other 27 EU members would give us said deal, without the insistence of free movement of EU citizens.

Hypothetically,If I personally was one of the heads of those other 27 EU Nations we would be leaving behind in the EU.
I would not be looking to give the UK any easy deal whatsoever.

I frankly in that scenario, would not even be bothered likely what happened to the UK, and would hope most or even all the foreign investment there is in the UK would be moved to mainland Europe after the UK left too.

The full and real duty of the EU hierarchy will be to do the best for, and satisfy, the remaining EU member Nations, not run after a Nation 'choosing' to run away.

[Northern Monkey]

Probably they do Kizzy but maybe do not want to acknowledge that fact.

We had a nett migration of 334,000 last year of which only 184,000 were from the EU.

If we come out of the EU and firmly refuse to do any deal with the EU that involves the free movement of EU citizens, then we would be able to stop people coming from the EU to the UK.

If that is, and for me it is a mighty big 'if' but also in my view probably impossible we could get any trading deal with the EU,where all the other 27 EU members would give us said deal, without the insistence of free movement of EU citizens.

Hypothetically,If I personally was one of the heads of those other 27 EU Nations we would be leaving behind in the EU.
I would not be looking to give the UK any easy deal whatsoever.

I frankly in that scenario, would not even be bothered likely what happened to the UK, and would hope most or even all the foreign investment there is in the UK would be moved to mainland Europe after the UK left too.

The full and real duty of the EU hierarchy will be to do the best for, and satisfy, the remaining EU member Nations, not run after a Nation 'choosing' to run away.
Then if you were the head of one of those 27 nations you would be massively losing out on a massive market for your country.
Those heads of state want and need a good deal with us and won't cut off their noses to spite their face.

[joeysteele]

Then if you were the head of one of those 27 nations you would be massively losing out on a massive market for your country.
Those heads of state want and need a good deal with us and won't cut off their noses to spite their face.

This is where you and I differ strongly on this one,I see the UK as the one cutting off its nose to spite its face by leaving.
Which is why I am not taking that risk and will vote to remain.

If however as to your point, I was one of those 27 heads of an EU member remaining, I would take that risk and refuse to ratify any deal for the UK that did not insist on the UK accepting the free movement of EU citizens.
That would then be the UKs choice to make.

Even if we do leave however, I do in fact believe ayway that the UK govt in negotiation for a deal,will accept the free movement of EU citizens, saying that was the only way to get a substantial and good deal for the UK in the end.

There is not going to be any other referendum asking the UK voters again if they want to accept the negotiated deal made by the govt after an exit vote.
That decision will be the govts and the govts alone.

[the truth]

Probably they do Kizzy but maybe do not want to acknowledge that fact.

We had a nett migration of 334,000 last year of which only 184,000 were from the EU.

If we come out of the EU and firmly refuse to do any deal with the EU that involves the free movement of EU citizens, then we would be able to stop people coming from the EU to the UK.

If that is, and for me it is a mighty big 'if' but also in my view probably impossible we could get any trading deal with the EU,where all the other 27 EU members would give us said deal, without the insistence of free movement of EU citizens.

Hypothetically,If I personally was one of the heads of those other 27 EU Nations we would be leaving behind in the EU.
I would not be looking to give the UK any easy deal whatsoever.

I frankly in that scenario, would not even be bothered likely what happened to the UK, and would hope most or even all the foreign investment there is in the UK would be moved to mainland Europe after the UK left too.

The full and real duty of the EU hierarchy will be to do the best for, and satisfy, the remaining EU member Nations, not run after a Nation 'choosing' to run away.
That's petty self defeatist self destructive and would bankrupt the eu even more lol
Don't you get it the eu is bust

[Northern Monkey]

This is where you and I differ strongly on this one,I see the UK as the one cutting off its nose to spite its face by leaving.
Which is why I am not taking that risk and will vote to remain.

If however as to your point, I was one of those 27 heads of an EU member remaining, I would take that risk and refuse to ratify any deal for the UK that did not insist on the UK accepting the free movement of EU citizens.
That would then be the UKs choice to make.

Even if we do leave however, I do in fact believe ayway that the UK govt in negotiation for a deal,will accept the free movement of EU citizens, saying that was the only way to get a substantial and good deal for the UK in the end.

There is not going to be any other referendum asking the UK voters again if they want to accept the negotiated deal made by the govt after an exit vote.
That decision will be the govts and the govts alone.Even if the government in power does'nt think that migration is too high now.At the rate it's coming it's not going to be all that long until we as a country have to put the brakes on or atleast take control of the numbers.This tiny island has its limits.Atleast out of the EU we have the option to do that when the sh1t really does hit the fan and one government will have to do that,It is inevitable.It's going to happen.As an EU member we are impotent to do anything.

[user104658]

Even if the government in power does'nt think that migration is too high now.At the rate it's coming it's not going to be all that long until we as a country have to put the brakes on or atleast take control of the numbers.This tiny island has its limits.Atleast out of the EU we have the option to do that when the sh1t really does hit the fan and one government will have to do that,It is inevitable.It's going to happen.As an EU member we are impotent to do anything.

NM if your reasons for voting to leave the EU hinge on migration levels, I'd humbly (since I'm a humble fellow) suggest that you've been mislead and will be disappointed (in the event of Brexit, when it has little impact on migration). If you have other solid reasons for wanting out of the EU, if you just think that on balance it's the right way to go, then that's one thing... but so many people are letting their thinking regarding the referrendum hinge on migration and it's a complete red herring.

[Northern Monkey]

NM if your reasons for voting to leave the EU hinge on migration levels, I'd humbly (since I'm a humble fellow) suggest that you've been mislead and will be disappointed (in the event of Brexit, when it has little impact on migration). If you have other solid reasons for wanting out of the EU, if you just think that on balance it's the right way to go, then that's one thing... but so many people are letting their thinking regarding the referrendum hinge on migration and it's a complete red herring.Migration is 'a' reason i'm voting out.Not 'the' reason.
I don't like the whole concept of what it has become since becoming the EU.I think in the beginning the EEC was a good idea but it has become a totally different authoritarian beast.The people who put forward the laws to be pondered over by the EU parliament are not elected they are 'appointed'.They imo don't really like the concept of nations and only want what is good for their organisation and not the member states.You may argue that what is good for the EU is obviously good for its members but i believe that the interests of the member states are only second to the interests of this giant bloated company we know as the European Union.:laugh:

[user104658]

Migration is 'a' reason i'm voting out.Not 'the' reason.
I don't like the whole concept of what it has become since becoming the EU.I think in the beginning the EEC was a good idea but it has become a totally different authoritarian beast.The people who put forward the laws to be pondered over by the EU parliament are not elected they are 'appointed'.They imo don't really like the concept of nations and only want what is good for their organisation and not the member states.You may argue that what is good for the EU is obviously good for its members but i believe that the interests of the member states are only second to the interests of this giant bloated company we know as the European Union.:laugh:

I don't necessarily disagree that there are plenty of serious flaws with the EU, however, I personally think there's plenty of scope for drastic reform into something great rather than just cashing in our chips and heading home. My main gripe really is that no one has tried particularly hard to achieve that. A few token gripes here and there but mostly just lumbering along, and then wondering why it isn't quite working.

I could understand the drive to dismantle it if we had been trying for years to find a better solution, failing to do so, and having no other option. As it stands, it all seems to be somewhat knee-jerk, ill thought out, and driven by misplaced economic and security concerns.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't necessarily disagree that there are plenty of serious flaws with the EU, however, I personally think there's plenty of scope for drastic reform into something great rather than just cashing in our chips and heading home. My main gripe really is that no one has tried particularly hard to achieve that. A few token gripes here and there but mostly just lumbering along, and then wondering why it isn't quite working.

I could understand the drive to dismantle it if we had been trying for years to find a better solution, failing to do so, and having no other option. As it stands, it all seems to be somewhat knee-jerk, ill thought out, and driven by misplaced economic and security concerns.I think in order to reform it,It would take a consensus from all its members,Members all with different interests and i think a consensus would never be reached.
They can't even form a consensus on the recent refugee crisis so every nation has gone into panic mode and erected fences round their borders apart from Germany who invited the world with little thought for the surrounding countries.This is just one small example why the EU as a concept is deeply flawed.
All these different countries and cultures all want different things and jamming them all together under a common rule is destined to fail.
Everything takes years and years to sort out.Every treaty,trade deal,everything.
It is unworkable in my humble opinion and i think it is a sinking ship.Look at the Euro,What a mess.
We should don our life jackets and swim for dry land.Imo.

[Kizzy]

We will be able to CHOOSE who we want/need from anywhere on the globe whilst keeping immigration numbers sensible.Doctors,technicians,refugees etc etc.Rather than thousands of strawberry pickers,cleaners or benefits migrants who end up getting benefits to top up their incomes.We will have less unemployed as the people we select will be skilled and targeted for the areas they are needed and more jobs for us.

You don't know this.... that would be dependent on some points system that isn't even suggested anywhere is it?

[Northern Monkey]

You don't know this.... that would be dependent on some points system that isn't even suggested anywhere is it?

Well it has actually been suggested.By the party that brought about this referendum in the first place but i cba to get into the rights and wrongs of UKIP.
I think an Australian style points system would be an excellent idea.Even if the governments we have are'nt suggesting it now it is a sensible option and could be taken onboard at a later date.The important thing is......

It would be our choice as a country to employ.

[Kizzy]

Well it has actually been suggested.By the party that brought about this referendum in the first place but i cba to get into the rights and wrongs of UKIP.
I think an Australian style points system would be an excellent idea.Even if the governments we have are'nt suggesting it now it is a sensible option and could be taken onboard at a later date.The important thing is......

It would be our choice as a country to employ.

It's pure fantasy then?

[Northern Monkey]

It's pure fantasy then?I feel it will be necessary in the not too distant future.The people in power will have to drag their heads out of the sand eventually.It's just a question of when.

[joeysteele]

I think in order to reform it,It would take a consensus from all its members,Members all with different interests and i think a consensus would never be reached.
They can't even form a consensus on the recent refugee crisis so every nation has gone into panic mode and erected fences round their borders apart from Germany who invited the world with little thought for the surrounding countries.This is just one small example why the EU as a concept is deeply flawed.
All these different countries and cultures all want different things and jamming them all together under a common rule is destined to fail.
Everything takes years and years to sort out.Every treaty,trade deal,everything.
It is unworkable in my humble opinion and i think it is a sinking ship.Look at the Euro,What a mess.
We should don our life jackets and swim for dry land.Imo.

You have very valid points and I am one of the first to agree there is much wrong with the EU and a great deal needs to be changed.

Because I would like things to be reformed,then that is another reason I want the UK to remain, to help reform it.

I actually think reform of the EU would be harder with less members, I actually am one who thinks, rightly or wrongly,depending on what side of this issue anyone is on,that with many more Nations now in the EU, reform could be demanded and more likely achieved.

The eurozone is beginning to do better again and I do not think it is a sinking ship,probably not ever but certainly not for a long time to come.
hence why so many big Nations are seeking to set up trade deals with the EU.

However sinking ship or not, if it does sink and badly,then in or out, that will too have an effect on the UK,we cannot be immune to what happens in the eurozone, we do not ever need to join it,but in good times and bad times for the eurozone,it will affect the UK in some way.

You are right too in that you say trading deals take years to agree and set up too,that will apply to the UK too if we vote to leave with all the uncertainty that may entail as well.

I just am not a separatist and I believe change where change is needed is better achieved from within something rather than out of it.

Now, again, maybe I am foolish to do so and then again maybe I am not,however I do think the present PM we have has started a ball rolling slowly as to reforming the EU.
I also think the UK could begin to lead the way to more reform of the EU too.

So I will never change your mind nor you mine now but I would look for and hope for a better EU,with the UK helping lead the way in it, to that better way.
I respect your viewpoint and you make really valid points as to the make up of the EU being less than good.
I just have not heard a single thing as to out, that in any way convinces me that the UK can hold the status it has and certainly not do better out of the EU than what we are doing while in it as a full member.

If the out side could show me anyone in the EU saying the UK will not have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also if they could present even one major nation, outside the EU, who is a friend or ally of the UK who are saying we should leave, and they will definitely step up to the mark for us if we do.
Then that would go some way to make me see 'out' differently.however there are none.

[Kizzy]

I feel it will be necessary in the not too distant future.The people in power will have to drag their heads out of the sand eventually.It's just a question of when.

Yes but how does that relate to the immigration question regarding brexit?
Those advocating brexit have suggested will not only slow but stop... how?

[Northern Monkey]

You have very valid points and I am one of the first to agree there is much wrong with the EU and a great deal needs to be changed.

Because I would like things to be reformed,then that is another reason I want the UK to remain, to help reform it.

I actually think reform of the EU would be harder with less members, I actually am one who thinks, rightly or wrongly,depending on what side of this issue anyone is on,that with many more Nations now in the EU, reform could be demanded and more likely achieved.

The eurozone is beginning to do better again and I do not think it is a sinking ship,probably not ever but certainly not for a long time to come.
hence why so many big Nations are seeking to set up trade deals with the EU.

However sinking ship or not, if it does sink and badly,then in or out, that will too have an effect on the UK,we cannot be immune to what happens in the eurozone, we do not ever need to join it,but in good times and bad times for the eurozone,it will affect the UK in some way.

You are right too in that you say trading deals take years to agree and set up too,that will apply to the UK too if we vote to leave with all the uncertainty that may entail as well.

I just am not a separatist and I believe change where change is needed is better achieved from within something rather than out of it.

Now, again, maybe I am foolish to do so and then again maybe I am not,however I do think the present PM we have has started a ball rolling slowly as to reforming the EU.
I also think the UK could begin to lead the way to more reform of the EU too.

So I will never change your mind nor you mine now but I would look for and hope for a better EU,with the UK helping lead the way in it, to that better way.
I respect your viewpoint and you make really valid points as to the make up of the EU being less than good.
I just have not heard a single thing as to out, that in any way convinces me that the UK can hold the status it has and certainly not do better out of the EU than what we are doing while in it as a full member.

If the out side could show me anyone in the EU saying the UK will not have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also if they could present even one major nation, outside the EU, who is a friend or ally of the UK who are saying we should leave, and they will definitely step up to the mark for us if we do.
Then that would go some way to make me see 'out' differently.however there are none.I disagree.

However i respect your opinion on it and you make a very good argument.I may not agree on this but i learn much from your posts.

[Northern Monkey]

Yes but how does that relate to the immigration question regarding brexit?
Those advocating brexit have suggested will not only slow but stop... how?

I have'nt heard anyone on the out side suggest they want immigration to stop totally or expect it.
If i did i would probably think them an idiot.

[Kizzy]

“Lest we forget: turning the native poor against migrant labour is a variant of the old divide and rule trick that the British establishment honed ages ago to dominate the empire,” he said.
“Today the establishment uses the same trick to dominate the domestic natives to hide austerity’s effects and to defect anger towards the ‘other’ – the migrant, the foreigner.”

And of course he's right.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yanis-varoufakis-warns-that-anti-immigrant-rhetoric-is-being-used-to-distract-from-austerity-a7053866.html

[user104658]

Yep; the working class is struggling to find work because Johnny Polish is taking all the jobs. Defitely not because austerity levels are too high and everything is grinding to a painful halt...

[Northern Monkey]

“Lest we forget: turning the native poor against migrant labour is a variant of the old divide and rule trick that the British establishment honed ages ago to dominate the empire,” he said.
“Today the establishment uses the same trick to dominate the domestic natives to hide austerity’s effects and to defect anger towards the ‘other’ – the migrant, the foreigner.”

And of course he's right.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yanis-varoufakis-warns-that-anti-immigrant-rhetoric-is-being-used-to-distract-from-austerity-a7053866.htmlI don't think with alot of people(me included) it's about being against the immigrants as people or have "anger" towards them personally.I've worked with loads of them and had a right laugh with them and the majority are good friendly people.I think it's just the sheer numbers.I think we just need to be able to control it that's all.

[arista]

Today off Kent
18 Illegal Migrant Albanians saved from a Dingy .

Its just getting worse

http://news.sky.com/story/1703817/fears-of-med-tragedies-in-channel-after-rescue

[MTVN]

I like Yanis and he's very intelligent but the fact that he opposes 'the establishment' and political orthodoxy doesn't mean he's not prone to the same simplifications and hyperbole of the political classes that he derides

Remember that he too is both a politician and a journalist, yes he's a different voice but should still be subjected to scrutiny

[empire]

lets point this out, that the two main parties, in this country, are not fit too run this country, their stupid thinking, in that the uk shouldn't have borders, is just another reason why people wasted their vote on the two top parties, when are homeless rate is going up, and are children going hungry, is shocking, they just add more to a problem, with saying any person can come here, and clam anything, my cousin is working in australia, but he needed an employee to sponsor him, and pay alot of money to the australian government, and needed a trade skill to get a work permit for three years, in this country we have none of thoses things in place, and where just a sugar island that just attracts bees and wasps, we should change are name to great sugar island, not great britain.