How are you voting in the EU Referendum?

[Glenn.]

Leave or remain?

[MB.]

Psst there's quite a long thread on this

(...assuming that the people who voted in that poll haven't changed their opinions since then)

[Livia]

Leave.

[Denver]

Out without a doubt

[T*]

if i could vote i'd vote leave

[Firewire]

Not voting, I'm on holiday and couldn't be arsed applying for postal voting because my printer's broken.

But I would to remain.

[Ninastar]

i read on facebook that if i vote leave I am a racist so i dont want to leave

[Ninastar]

im joking of course

[Glenn.]

Psst there's quite a long thread on this

(...assuming that the people who voted in that poll haven't changed their opinions since then)

Shut up.

[Smithy]

Not voting bc Guernsey but I'd vote to stay, if Nigel farage and Katy Hopkins want to leave then you know it's the stupid thing to do

[Jack_]

Remain.

I don't trust this government to protect the workers and human rights that are enshrined within EU law (the best benefit of being in the EU and has been barely mentioned in this ****ing dreadful campaign on all sides with the economy, trade and immigration recited ad nauseam).

I also appreciate the benefits we're entitled to like free movement, and the caps they continue to place on mobile phone company pricing.

Plus I don't have this inflated sense of superiority that a lot of British people still seem to have in thinking we're still some ****ing empire that can just do its own thing and everyone in Europe, America and the rest of the world is going to bow down at our feet and do whatever we demand. No, outside of Europe we're a tiny little irrelevant island that's largely hated.

So yes, remain.

[Livia]

Remain.

I don't trust this government to protect the workers and human rights that are enshrined within EU law (the best benefit of being in the EU and has been barely mentioned in this ****ing dreadful campaign on all sides with the economy, trade and immigration recited ad nauseam).

I also appreciate the benefits we're entitled to like free movement, and the caps they continue to place on mobile phone company pricing.

Plus I don't have this inflated sense of superiority that a lot of British people still seem to have in thinking we're still some ****ing empire that can just do its own thing and everyone in Europe, America and the rest of the world is going to bow down at our feet and do whatever we demand. No, outside of Europe we're a tiny little irrelevant island that's largely hated.
So yes, remain.

Wow... you have a very skewed view of the world and the UK's position in it.

Gratifying to see the Remainers are largely on holiday and won't be voting...

[Jack_]

For what it's worth I'm on holiday but applied for a postal vote, hopefully it arrives in time :hee:

[bots]

I will be voting remain.

Point of note, the European Human rights don't come from the EU, its a different thing altogether and we can ignore them or abide by them as we see fit, in or out of the EU

[_Tom_]

OUT.

[Jack.]

I'll be voting to remain.

[Suze]

Leave.

[T*]

Surely you should make your own mind up rather than having the 'X wants to leave so it's automatically stupid!!!'

[Jack.]

Surely you should make your own mind up rather than having the 'X wants to leave so it's automatically stupid!!!'

Yeah everyone has different opinions and views on everything.

[joeysteele]

Remain.

I don't trust this government to protect the workers and human rights that are enshrined within EU law (the best benefit of being in the EU and has been barely mentioned in this ****ing dreadful campaign on all sides with the economy, trade and immigration recited ad nauseam).

I also appreciate the benefits we're entitled to like free movement, and the caps they continue to place on mobile phone company pricing.

Plus I don't have this inflated sense of superiority that a lot of British people still seem to have in thinking we're still some ****ing empire that can just do its own thing and everyone in Europe, America and the rest of the world is going to bow down at our feet and do whatever we demand. No, outside of Europe we're a tiny little irrelevant island that's largely hated.

So yes, remain.

Good post Jack_

I too have found great disillusionment with people I thought more balanced even some in my family.

I am not in anyway an isolationist or a separatist,the days of old are far gone but some think we can just jump into old shoes and walk where we did decades ago.
That is why I will vote to remain and not fall prey to the leave sides endless ifs,maybe's and don't knows as to what will really happen for the UK if out.
I know what it is like in the EU,and so I see fewer risks in than out.

I have no doubt at all the UK out of the EU can stand on its own feet,I fear however that while standing it will not know which way to turn or where to walk to,or even find all it hopes too either, so end up going really nowhere.

That's a gamble I refuse to put the UK and its future generations through as to even the tiniest risk.
I also think as quitters we will be even more disliked.

[Northern Monkey]

Such a tough decision.Can't decide

[Liberty4eva]

I'm not voting because I am from across the sea. BUT if I had a vote it would 1000000% leave.

[Mitchell]

Remain

[the truth]

Good post Jack_

I too have found great disillusionment with people I thought more balanced even some in my family.

I am not in anyway an isolationist or a separatist,the days of old are far gone but some think we can just jump into old shoes and walk where we did decades ago.
That is why I will vote to remain and not fall prey to the leave sides endless ifs,maybe's and don't knows as to what will really happen for the UK if out.
I know what it is like in the EU,and so I see fewer risks in than out.

I have no doubt at all the UK out of the EU can stand on its own feet,I fear however that while standing it will not know which way to turn or where to walk to,or even find all it hopes too either, so end up going really nowhere.

That's a gamble I refuse to put the UK and its future generations through as to even the tiniest risk.
I also think as quitters we will be even more disliked.

so instead of fighting to change our own government , give up and try to change an unelected parliament of 30 countries and 500 million+ people and tens of thosuands of politcians?
lol

totally illogical and totally undemocratic and wholly ineffective

keep sovereignty and keep democracy and simply fight the government on every single issue...thats how democracy works, you should throw it away for ANYTHING....least of all a wasteful bankrupt corporate cartel of unelected crooks

[Johnnyuk123]

so instead of fighting to change our own government , give up and try to change an unelected parliament of 30 countries and 500 million+ people and tens of thosuands of politcians?
lol

totally illogical and totally undemocratic and wholly ineffective

keep sovereignty and keep democracy and simply fight the government on every single issue...thats how democracy works, you should not throw it away for ANYTHING....least of all a wasteful bankrupt corporate cartel of un elected crooks

Fantastic post!:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

[kirklancaster]

Wow... you have a very skewed view of the world and the UK's position in it.

Gratifying to see the Remainers are largely on holiday and won't be voting...

'Skewed' is an understatement. It's sad and worrying.

[kirklancaster]

Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out.out. Out. Out.

[Northern Monkey]

Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out.out. Out. Out.so...How you voting again Kirky?I wish you'd get straight to the point sometimes instead of waffling on.

[Kizzy]

Another EU voting thread?
The knives are coming out now it's ace, the debates are better than BB :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

so...How you voting again Kirky?I wish you'd get straight to the point sometimes instead of waffling on.

:laugh:

[joeysteele]

so instead of fighting to change our own government , give up and try to change an unelected parliament of 30 countries and 500 million+ people and tens of thosuands of politcians?
lol

totally illogical and totally undemocratic and wholly ineffective

keep sovereignty and keep democracy and simply fight the government on every single issue...thats how democracy works, you should throw it away for ANYTHING....least of all a wasteful bankrupt corporate cartel of unelected crooks

If we, as the UK, have thrown anything away it has been done and allowed to be done by the govts we elected here in the UK of all persuasions.

I do not blame the EU for that,I blame those govts,which in fact,the current one, no matter its heartlessness and extreme policies, I cannot get rid of either,under this outdated electoral system and while the far South only of England remains a virtual one party State and getting even worse as to that.

I have issues with the EU and want it reformed, the UK cannot reform it any more if out of it,however I hate far more most of what the last 4 elected UK govts have done over the last 15 years, than anything the EU has.

I wouldn't actually be that confident if I was you that even by leaving you would get back what you hope for as to immigration or other conditions.

The UK may on paper gain around £170 million a week, a pittance in govt monetary terms.
What it then possibly would lose in real success,credibility,status and influence in the World, not just as to the EU, could be far bigger.

There you have my opinion anyway, and just before you come back at me and say it, I am sure what I have said is just more of what you would term as nonsense from me.

However we will see, and I would like to see some sort of insurance that if all goes wrong once out, the leave campaigns are held accountably responsible for same for their misleading of the voters on this issue.

[jaxie]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convicted of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's not racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally. We have enough home grown ones, we dont need extras.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to sack the government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade deal is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS. Are we willing to have EU rules and regulations in the NHS?

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Apologies as I have been tweaking what I wanted to say and correcting typos for a bit so those quoting me may not have it all.

[kirklancaster]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes the! From the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this and it will never work. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, party self inflicted yes but whole nations are being financially gloves or government mistakes.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: There is not ONE true reason to remain in this corrupt shambles Jaxie.

[Kizzy]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes the! From the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this and it will never work. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, party self inflicted yes but whole nations are being financially gloves or government mistakes.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

And we aren't already...Since when have we not been part of the wider world?
Just wait till the wider world wants to be part of us, if some have an issue with eastern Europeans just wait....

[Kazanne]

If we, as the UK, have thrown anything away it has been done and allowed to be done by the govts we elected here in the UK of all persuasions.

I do not blame the EU for that,I blame those govts,which in fact,the current one, no matter its heartlessness and extreme policies, I cannot get rid of either,under this outdated electoral system and while the far South only of England remains a virtual one party State and getting even worse as to that.

I have issues with the EU and want it reformed, the UK cannot reform it any more if out of it,however I hate far more most of what the last 4 elected UK govts have done over the last 15 years, than anything the EU has.

I wouldn't actually be that confident if I was you that even by leaving you would get back what you hope for as to immigration or other conditions.

The UK may on paper gain around £170 million a week, a pittance in govt monetary terms.
What it then possibly would lose in real success,credibility,status and influence in the World, not just as to the EU, could be far bigger.

There you have my opinion anyway, and just before you come back at me and say it, I am sure what I have said is just more of what you would term as nonsense from me.

However we will see, and I would like to see some sort of insurance that if all goes wrong once out, the leave campaigns are held accountably responsible for same for their misleading of the voters on this issue.

:clap1::clap1:

[DemolitionRed]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convinced of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's ot racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to save k my government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS.

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Great post Jaxie.

The more I've looked into how the EU handles trade deals, the more I realize we are being suffocated.

The Swiss route is the way forward for Britain.

[jaxie]

Great post Jaxie.

The more I've looked into how the EU handles trade deals, the more I realize we are being suffocated.

The Swiss route is the way forward for Britain.

Hey wonderful to see you still around! I agree about the Swiss, they never joined he Eu and they are thriving.

There is life outside the EU people just need to be brave enough to step out of the comfort zone. One thing for sure all those outside the UK opinions like Obama have their own interests in us being in the EU and they aren't necessarily our best interests.

[Kizzy]

It sounds great in principle, however we are not Switzerland... they were not involved in wars, they are the Jeremy Corbyn of the world.

HEY, I changed my mind! let's be Swiss :D

[jaxie]

It sounds great in principle, however we are not Switzerland... they were not involved in wars, they are the Jeremy Corbyn of the world.

HEY, I changed my mind! let's be Swiss :D

Don't start me on what's wrong with Labour!

We aren't Switzerland but that doesn't mean we can't point to a country that didn't join and is doing nicely as am example.

If anyone is worried about war, I would think dangers of war are far more likely fro. Forcing people into an ideology they don't share then decimating their NHS are much more likely to cause conflicts than just putting on our coats and packing our bags.

[jaxie]

Good post Jack_

I too have found great disillusionment with people I thought more balanced even some in my family.

I am not in anyway an isolationist or a separatist,the days of old are far gone but some think we can just jump into old shoes and walk where we did decades ago.
That is why I will vote to remain and not fall prey to the leave sides endless ifs,maybe's and don't knows as to what will really happen for the UK if out.
I know what it is like in the EU,and so I see fewer risks in than out.

I have no doubt at all the UK out of the EU can stand on its own feet,I fear however that while standing it will not know which way to turn or where to walk to,or even find all it hopes too either, so end up going really nowhere.

That's a gamble I refuse to put the UK and its future generations through as to even the tiniest risk.
I also think as quitters we will be even more disliked.

You are making the biggest gamble if you stay.

[bots]

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box :laugh:

[jaxie]

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box :laugh:

What scares me a little is that it has taken a long time to even get a referendum on Europe and if people vote remain we might end up stuck in a very bad situation with no way out. Just look at how eager a large majority of our politicians were to give up the pound which would have been a disaster. I think that many people have such a jaded view of people like Farage that it prevents them actually looking at the bigger picture.

I could go on and on about crazy EU directives like making chocolate conform to guidelines across the EU and taking 4 years to do it. Our chocolate has never tasted right since! But levity aside, four years debating chocolate? REALLY?

I understand people are scared but for me there is no deep breath, I have on my running shoes and I really want the starting pistol.

[Northern Monkey]

We joined a common market and it turned into an ideology, a political experiment. The ideology is shared by a core group who will see and hear nothing that takes them from the path. If your interests lay away or off this path they are not willing to work with you or around the straight path. Those who don't share the ideology are being dragged along. This is never going to work, there is no compromise, no treaty change. The UK aren't the only people discontent with this. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that means forcing it through regardless of consequences. How can you force people along a political path they don't want? It smacks of dictatorship and surely it's bound to fail. But at what cost?

The single currency has been a failure and some countries are paying a very heavy price for that, partly self inflicted by their government yes but whole nations are being financially slaughtered for those mistakes. We cannot be without some sympathy for the people of Greece nor grateful that we didn't enter the euro like many of those in remain wanted us to. Who would want to face the prospect of an old age in poverty with very little to no pensions?

The EU costs more than it brings in wealth to us. It has destroyed our fishing industry and there are whole communities that have never recovered. So much for how it brings jobs, is that bringing with one hand and taking with another? Not only did it destroy our fishing industry with bad policies over many years it led to our oceans being overfished and cod becoming an endangered species in our waters.

We don't need to be in the EU to visit other countries nor to live in them if we choose to do so. Many British people live and work in Dubai, Dubai is not part of the EU so when people say if we leave I wouldn't be able to live or work there is preposterous.

Those who want to remain often brand those who want to leave racists because the total lack of EU border control we have now concerns them and yet we have situations with so little control over our borders that a man convicted of murdering his wife was able to come here and murder a 14 year old girl after release from prison. IMO there is nothing wrong with being able to choose who comes to this country, it's not racist to have a little concern with who enters your borders and I find convicted murderers less than desirable personally. We have enough home grown ones, we dont need extras.

And another stone thrown is that we want to be isolated. This couldn't be further from the truth, I think rather that we want to be part of the wider world instead of being forced into a box with a failed political experiment, stuck without democracy. I would rather be able to sack the government with my vote if they do me wrong, thanks all the same.

We are the biggest importer of German cars in the EU, is the government of Germany who clearly run the EU really going to cut us off with no trade if we leave? I don't think it likely.

If we were asked to join now, looking honestly we would not. We must leave. As a people the ever closer union thing will never work for us we are too independent and I'm not sure it should. In 1939 who else stood on the edge of Europe and said no? Perhaps someone needs to be independent should we need to do so again so that those forging ahead with their ideology are forced to realise that you can lead the horses to your water, but you can't make them drink up.

The EU will never be reformed because those in the driving seat don't want it and we have no hope of them ever listening to us and what we want. It's clear they view us as a nuisance at best. And mark my words the US EU trade deal is coming and it will adversely affect the NHS. Are we willing to have EU rules and regulations in the NHS?

That's me for leave then. I don't care if I'm in bed with Nigel Farage or the Monster Loonies. Remain aren't without their cranks too, Eddie Izzard.

Apologies as I have been tweaking what I wanted to say and correcting typos for a bit so those quoting me may not have it all.
:worship: :worship: :clap1: :clap1:

[Northern Monkey]

Great post Jaxie, and some very valid reasons to vote out. The problem is that there are some equally good reasons to vote to remain which is why this is such a difficult issue to weigh up and decide upon. I wonder how many people will be taking a deep breath before they put their X in the box :laugh:

Not me.Not with all the stinky pensioners in my local polling station.

[Northern Monkey]

Hey wonderful to see you still around! I agree about the Swiss, they never joined he Eu and they are thriving.

There is life outside the EU people just need to be brave enough to step out of the comfort zone. One thing for sure all those outside the UK opinions like Obama have their own interests in us being in the EU and they aren't necessarily our best interests.

This is what i've been saying for a while too.People trying to coerce us into staying are doing so for there own interests not ours.
The EU organisation does'nt care about the interests of it's members just itself.They may have some common interests with us but they have many which are not,Hence all the regulations they are placing on us.

[Johnnyuk123]

Take the IN/OUT of the EU test.
I got... You want democracy 100% for the UK and will therefore be voting OUT!

https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out

[joeysteele]

You are making the biggest gamble if you stay.

Sorry,I respect fully your position but I certainly do not see it that way.

I see remaining in as having risks too but I have a better idea of what any risks may be and that also we would be easily likely to overcome any which arise.

If out,I have heard nothing of assurance or substantiation as to what can be achieved or the elimination as best as possible of any risks.

I would rather continue to work within something I know, than walk into areas unknown with little idea of any positives or negatives there may be there.
That is why I will vote to stay, I know where I am, and the UK is, inside in the EU and that we can remain a successful Nation

Coming out,I have not the slightest substantiated idea really how that would either affect me personally, affect the future generations of the UK and indeed affect the UK itself too.

I believe the voters will narrowly vote to leave unfortunately but for me, the vote to leave is the real gamble,not staying in now.

[jaxie]

Sorry,I respect fully your position but I certainly do not see it that way.

I see remaining in as having risks too but I have a better idea of what any risks may be and that also we would be easily likely to overcome any which arise.

If out,I have heard nothing of assurance or substantiation as to what can be achieved or the elimination as best as possible of any risks.

I would rather continue to work within something I know, than walk into areas unknown with little idea of any positives or negatives there may be there.
That is why I will vote to stay, I know where I am, and the UK is, inside in the EU and that we can remain a successful Nation

Coming out,I have not the slightest substantiated idea really how that would either affect me personally, affect the future generations of the UK and indeed affect the UK itself too.

I believe the voters will narrowly vote to leave unfortunately but for me, the vote to leave is the real gamble,not staying in now.

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections because we aren't the only ones unhappy with the EU and being patronised by our politics and a lot of people don't seem to feel they have anywhere else to go. The Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure. And most worrying of all those forging ahead to ever closer union are either oblivious or simply don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

[MTVN]

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections, the Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure.

Thousands of years of continental conflict :whistle:

[jaxie]

Thousands of years of continental conflict :whistle:

And you don't think a surge to the far right in some countries politics has potential to cause conflict?

There is also a lot of dissent over the migrant crisis and the way Germany handled it and then back tracked. That whole mess is far from over.

[MTVN]

And you don't think a surge to the far right in some countries politics has potential to cause conflict?

There is also a lot of dissent over the migrant crisis and the way Germany handled it and then back tracked.

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

[kirklancaster]

KIZZY - the first article by John King which I posted, and the second article by him which you posted, says it ALL really if we are truthful.

This issue of the UK's membership of the EU transcends British domestic political parties and the decision we all have to make on the 23rd of June is the THE most vitaly important decision we will ever have to make in the past 50 years.

Genuine socialists say it, and HONEST capitalists who have no covert vested interests say it - WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE corrupt, money-draining shambles that is the EU if we are to survive as a country.

Your excellent article by King not only ANSWERS all those sneering but misguided 'Remain' supporters who unfairly label anyone who is genuinely concerned about the untenable levels of unscreened immigration to this tiny island as xenophobic or racist or 'Little Englanders', it also explains just why they are misguided.

It not only explains WHY it is perfectly alright to be Patriotic, but it also defines the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism - which is not alright.

"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."

The darling of the TRUE left - Owen Jones advocates Brexit and says that by Brexiting the left can reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.

Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart - both Brexiteers - are more honourable than a thousand Jeremy Corbyns and John McDonnells - because they are TRUE to their left wing socialist Tony Benn/Michael Foot principles.

A 56 per cent majority of 2015 Labour voters – seen as pivotal to the result – support the 'REMAIN' campaign whilst 62 per cent of Tory voters want 'OUT', which is WHY the despicable, self-serving, great deceiver David Cameron NEEDS the support of Labour voters to succeed in his plot to keep the UK in the EU.

How truly bitterly ironic will it be, if the majority of Tories - the perceived party of Business and Profits - vote to leave the corporatist, anti-democratic, anti-socialist, anti-proletariat EU, while Labour KEEP US IN?

I for one, will NEVER forgive the Labour Party should Labour votes enable Cameron to succeed.

Here is another excellent explanatory article by Brendan O'Neill - The Left Wing Editor of 'Spiked':

The strange death of left-wing Euroscepticism
l

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/the-strange-death-of-left-wing-euroscepticism/

and another:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/17/leftwing-eurosceptics-eu-british-left

[jaxie]

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

I hate to bring this up but I don't see that the EU is necessarily tied to peace. You only have to look at who started the two world wars. So if we didn't have the EU are you saying Germany would try to invade? (again).

[joeysteele]

Why is being outside the EU so unknown, there were thousands of years without it before 1973 and we managed to get along!

I think there is a lot of uncertainty over the EU. A lot of member countries are falling to the far right in elections because we aren't the only ones unhappy with the EU and being patronised by our politics and a lot of people don't feel they have anywhere else to go. The Greek debacle is far from over, there is another round in July. The Euro is a failure. And most worrying of all those forging ahead to ever closer union are either oblivious or simply don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

[MTVN]

I hate to bring this up but I don't see that the EU is necessarily tied to peace. You only have to look at who started the two world wars. So if we didn't have the EU are you saying Germany would try to invade? (again).

No but I'm saying that the EU has helped create a more harmonious Europe. Its not all down to the EU of course - Nato deserves a lot of credit but Nato is primarily a military alliance whereas the EU brings countries together in other ways

[joeysteele]

It does but that's all the more reason to support the principles of the EU against these far-right movements in Europe that would destabilise the continent. There is a lot of resentment towards Germany and to the status quo in Europe, I agree with that, but lets not forget how far we have come since even a few decades ago. When the EEC was formed half of Europe was still living under the Iron Curtain and Germany itself was split in two. That's why to some extent it was always a political organisation because it was the latest attempt to try and heal the scars of post war Europe.

Absolutely,I agree with all that.

[jaxie]

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

If we don't accept ever closer union do you really think they will pay us any attention or that we will have any say in anything? Think on.

[Johnnyuk123]

We do not have to accept any closer union however, that is part of the deal won by David Cameron.
Which he still,even from his own party, is not getting better credit for what he did in fact win.

Govts of all colours,in Countries come and go, as also do the officials in the EU.
That has gone on for all the time we have been in the Common Market and then the EU too.
It has not hindered or destroyed any success the UK has been able to make.
We will also never have to be part of the Euro, another reinforcement from David Cameron's negotiations.

Furthermore even if the EU did try to force some treaty changes or even changes to our conditions now.
We not only have a veto to that but also entrenched in UK law, passed by the Coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015, is that any treaty cannot now just be signed automatically by the PM of any UK govt.
It must be put for approval via referendum to the British Electorate.

All that is more than good enough for me at this time.

Also it is over 40 years since we were not tied to Europe in some economic way.
Also for around 15 years before we joined the EEC in 1973, we were constantly working to be in and near desperate to being in too for the massive market it would open up to us,a market we risk losing the unique deal we have to at present should we leave.

No other EU Nation has the unique deal we have now as a member, with our opt outs, no treaty changes if we don't want them, never joining the Euro and no changes without our agreement to any conditions we have.

Furthermore,remaining in, were the EU to even try to force anything we didn't want on us,which I feel as sure as I can be they will not.
They know full well that Could trigger another likely Uk referendum,so that is another insurance we have staying in.

Once out,even if we desperately wanted to, there will be no way back at all as to being in.
Just many other reasons why I support staying in now.

I'm not being funny Joey but you are living in cloud cookoo land.
Your refusal to answer simple questions posted to you by myself and others on here is astonishing. Your refusal to accept clear facts from the likes of the truth and kirk and others is such a blinkered view of what you are voting to remain in. Here is one simple FACT. The EU is NOT a growing market but a SHRINKING market. Since around 1980 It has gone from 30% down to 17% If you seriously want to ignore the facts then by all means go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand and vote to remain in this dwindling failed EU market.

[joeysteele]

If we don't accept ever closer union do you really think they will pay us any attention or that we will have any say in anything? Think on.

They will have to pay us attention if we remain a member, it is in fact if we leave they need then pay no real or little attention to us at all.

If we stay we will get votes on all things we have had now over decades, if we leave we will likely get conditions, and not have a vote as to whether, and when, those conditions may be changed to trade.

The same say we have now inside the EU, none at all once out of it.

[jaxie]

They will have to pay us attention if we remain a member, it is in fact if we leave they need then pay no real or little attention to us at all.

If we stay we will get votes on all things we have had now over decades, if we leave we will likely get conditions, and not have a vote as to whether, and when, those conditions may be changed to trade.

The same say we have now inside the EU, none at all once out of it.

But they don't pay us any attention now. 70 laws we've objected to have been passed anyway. :shrug:

And Cameron got little to nothing, definitely not what he asked for, just a few milk sops because they don't want to change the way things are, it's their vision.

Out of the EU we have every say over our own destiny.

[Johnnyuk123]

Another interesting FACT...We got it in writing from the EU very recently that we will not be asked to bailout anyone.
Written in stone it was. Then what happened???
The EU ripped that agreement up and told us to pay up to help bail out Greece or else. So all this veto talk is great and all that but just look at what happened with Greece. The UK had to hand over millions in cash. So veto's mean zilch to the corrupt EU.

[Brother Leon]

Remain.

[joeysteele]

I'm not being funny Joey but you are living in cloud cookoo land.
Your refusal to answer simple questions posted to you by myself and others on here is astonishing. Your refusal to accept clear facts from the likes of the truth and kirk and others is such a blinkered view of what you are voting to remain in. Here is one simple FACT. The EU is NOT a growing market but a SHRINKING market. Since around 1980 It has gone from 30% down to 17% If you seriously want to ignore the facts then by all means go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand and vote to remain in this dwindling failed EU market.

Oh but you are indeed just being funny and I would say over all the threads and posts on the EU, I have clearly outlined why I will be voting to remain, and have answered just about all questions put to me, certainly far more than any of the leave campaigners have answered as to the remain side, as to any substantiation and facts as to what they outline.

The sad fact is you will not accept any answer unless it agrees with your stance on the issue and the simple fact is I do not agree with you at all and likely never will.
So why you even bother reading my posts mystifies me frankly but even moreso why you respond to them.
With you having such a low and derisory opinion of myself.

I certainly do my very best not to respond to yours knowing well in advance the put down I would get from you and others.
If asked a question ,I will answer but as I said earlier,if it is not what you want to hear you override it and then put me down.
I do not and should not have to take that.

I have always done so and still do fully respect the position of those who have taken the decision to vote to leave, sadly however it seems some on leave cannot do the same vice versa.

You are though, and I am saying it loud and clear,just being funny and all you want is to go round and round in circles making petty tit for tat, which does the issue no genuine credit and is for me just a waste of time for me.

[joeysteele]

But they don't pay us any attention now. 70 laws we've objected to have been passed anyway. :shrug:

And Cameron got little to nothing, definitely not what he asked for, just a few milk sops because they don't want to change the way things are, it's their vision.

Out of the EU we have every say over our own destiny.

That is your position, I respect that but don't agree with it.

In any organisation we will not always get what we want or like,of course we will be outvoted on many things but we will win many things as well.

I don't think you are fair to say Cameron got little to nothing,the guarantee of no further political ties for the UK is a substantial gain.
The change to migrant workers not being able to access benefits for 4 years,another good gain.

While it is true he asked for little, he got in my view, more than I expected even from what he asked for.
I applaud that and I see him as one Politician now that has the EUs ear and he could even negotiate more as time goes on.

In fact, after he stands down as PM,I would have him if he wanted it, in some EU role to do just that and I think he would have more than a fair chance of delivering more too.

AS a marketing Nation, it is our economy that will be the main part of determining our destiny,we have a good destiny in place now with how we are with EU membership.

We have no idea what will really happen to the economy out of the EU,in my opinion, and therefore I, speaking only for myself,can have no confidence of the UKs destiny if out, without support and substantiation of that support from the EU as to a trading deal and the rest of the World Nations opinions too.

Neither of which the leave campaign has.

[Johnnyuk123]

Oh but you are indeed just being funny and I would say over all the threads and posts on the EU, I have clearly outlined why I will be voting to remain, and have answered just about all questions put to me, certainly far more than any of the leave campaigners have answered as to remains as to any substantiation and facts as to what they outline.

The sad fact is you will not accept any answer unless it agrees with your stance on the issue and the simple fact is I do not agree with you at all and likely never will.
So why you even bother reading my posts mystifies me frankly but even moreso why you respond to them.
With you having such a low and derisory opinion of myself.

I certainly do my very best not to respond to yours knowing well in advance the put down I would get from you and others.
If asked a question ,I will answer but as I said earlier,if it is not what you want to hear you override it and then put me down.
I do not and should not have to take that.

I have always done so and still do fully respect the position of those who have taken the decision to vote to leave, sadly however it seems some on leave cannot do the same vice versa.

You are though, and I am saying it loud and clear,just being funny and all you want is to go round and round in circles making petty tit for tat, which neither does the issue any credit and is for me just a waste of time for me.



I asked you very simple questions ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

[joeysteele]

I asked you very simple question ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

1. If we leave there will I believe be a rush to get here before we do so, however I think te figures will not decrease that much nor do I think they will after we leave.
Why because I cannot see a responsible UK govt. leaving the single market.
I also think and believe no way at all will it be that all the other 27 Nations of the EU, will give the UK a deal that does not include the free movement still of EU citizens.
So I do not think we will be able to do anything about the numbers except the numbers we can now, from non EU Countries.

2. The contribution that is around £175 million a week now, not the £350million lie 'leave' state now, I largely expect to in reality stay the same.
You may want to join in the other Conservatives who are calling Cameron a liar on this but he has stated that our contribution cannot now be changed without our agreement.
So I do not think in reality the EU will even attempt it, we may be asked to help with more contributions, however I take his word that if a UK govts does not want to, then it will not have to.
If I was a betting man, I would say I;d expect an increase at some time with the UK govts agreement,but I doubt anything of note.

Now you answer me this, where in any shape or form has the EU stated that the leave sides claim of us leaving the EU will mean we can stop EU free movement of its citizen and still get a trading deal.
Name one EU nation or any of the RU hierarchy that has said that is even possible never mind probable.
Are you guaranteeing our govt,will definitely insist on no free movement of EU citizens.
They are not bound to do so by this referendum, which is only about EU membership not the finer detail.

Also, tell me one Nation out of the EU, who is a friend and/or ally of the UK, that has jumped up and said, if the UK leaves the EU, they will really step up to the mark, give us much bigger and better trading deals with them.

Even from the likes of China,India, Australia,and the USA comes te advice that we should stay in the EU, for us.
So just what 'real' deals can you substantiate for your argument on that.

Just one Nation form either point because I know of not one.

You know what, why on earth should I be cross examined by you anyway, it is a bit rich when all the leave side arguments are ifs, maybe's and don't knows.
Whereas, I know what we have with being a member of the EU, as does just a bout everyone committed on the leave and remain sides know what the deals is as members of the EU anyway.

[jaxie]

That is your position, I respect that but don't agree with it.

In any organisation we will not always get what we want or like,of course we will be outvoted on many things but we will win many things as well.

I don't think you are fair to say Cameron got little to nothing,the guarantee of no further political ties for the UK is a substantial gain.
The change to migrant workers not being able to access benefits for 4 years,another good gain.

While it is true he asked for little, he got in my view, more than I expected even from what he asked for.
I applaud that and I see him as one Politician now that has the EUs ear and he could even negotiate more as time goes on.

In fact, after he stands down as PM,I would have him if he wanted it, in some EU role to do just that and I think he would have more than a fair chance of delivering more too.

AS a marketing Nation, it is our economy that will be the main part of determining our destiny,we have a good destiny in place now with how we are with EU membership.

We have no idea what will really happen to the economy out of the EU,in my opinion, and therefore I speaking only for myself,can have no confidence of the UKs destiny if out, without support and substantiation of that support from the EU as to a trading deal and the rest of the World Nations opinions too.

Neither of which the elave campaign has.
You clearly feel as determined in your views as I am and I can respect that but I think if we stay you are going to be very disappointed and I am very much afraid we won't get the chance to leave again any time soon. We could all trip along and wait and see if we got a referendum on this every time the government changed but it's just not going to happen and based on how things have gone before I very much fear we are stuffed if we stay.

As to guarantees there is no way Germany is not going to trade with a country that imports most of its car exports. It's actually crazy to think they would suddenly not want to trade with us. I can't imagine where that idea has even come from. The EU aside there is a whole wide world and commonwealth out there we have ties with and the EU stifles our trade with them.

[Johnnyuk123]

1. If we leave there will I believe be a rush to get here before we do so, however I think te figures will not decrease that much nor do I think they will after we leave.
Why because I cannot see a responsible UK govt. leaving the single market.
I also think and believe no way at all will it be that all the other 27 Nations of the EU, will give the UK a deal that does not include the free movement still of EU citizens.
So I do not think we will be able to do anything about the numbers except the numbers we can now, from non EU Countries.

2. The contribution that is around £175 million a week now, not the £350million lie 'leave' state now, I largely expect to in reality stay the same.
You may want to join in the other Conservatives who are calling Cameron a liar on this but he has stated that our contribution cannot now be changed without our agreement.
So I do not think in reality the EU will even attempt it, we may be asked to help with more contributions, however I take his word that if a UK govts does not want to, then it will not have to.
If I was a betting man, I would say I;d expect an increase at some time with the UK govts agreement,but I doubt anything of note.

Now you answer me this, where in any shape or form has the EU stated that the leave sides claim of us leaving the EU will mean we can stop EU free movement of its citizen and still get a trading deal.
Name one EU nation or any of the RU hierarchy that has said that is even possible never mind probable.
Are you guaranteeing our govt,will definitely insist on no free movement of EU citizens.
They are not bound to do so by this referendum, which is only about EU membership not the finer detail.

Also, tell me one Nation out of the EU, who is a friend and/or ally of the UK, that has jumped up and said, if the UK leaves the EU, they will really step up to the mark, give us much bigger and better trading deals with them.

Even from the likes of China,India, Australia,and the USA comes te advice that we should stay in the EU, for us.
So just what 'real' deals can you substantiate for your argument on that.

Just one Nation form either point because I know of not one.

You know what, why on earth should I be cross examined by you anyway, it is a bit rich when all the leave side arguments are ifs, maybe's and don't knows.
Whereas, I know what we have with being a member of the EU, as does just a bout everyone committed on the leave and remain sides know what the deals is as members of the EU anyway.

What you have just posted above are also if's and buts too Joey because the reality of the situation of IN or OUT is that no one actually knows for certain. Not me or you. No one but the un elected presidents of the EU who will decide for me and for you. From reading your posts i take it you are pro democracy. The EU is anti democracy. So i hope you understand just what you are giving up. You mentioned gambling, if you were to bet etc... You have also clearly stated in other posts that you are not willing to gamble on this issue so i'm confused now because to me voting to remain IN the EU is a massive gamble. Democracy is something you yourself cherish. That will be gone if the vote to remain wins on the 23rd of June. Also throughout this whole campaign you have asked quite rightly for assurances from those wanting to leave the EU. It isn't a one way street Joey i too could ask you for assurances on why we should remain within the EU.

[joeysteele]

You clearly feel as determined in your views as I am and I can respect that but I think if we stay you are going to be very disappointed and I am very much afraid we won't get the chance to leave again any time soon. We could all trip along and wait and see if we got a referendum on this every time the government changed but it's just not going to happen and based on how things have gone before I very much fear we are stuffed if we stay.

As to guarantees there is no way Germany is not going to trade with a country that imports most of its car exports. It's actually crazy to think they would suddenly not want to trade with us. I can't imagine where that idea has even come from. The EU aside there is a whole wide world and commonwealth out there we have ties with and the EU stifles our trade with them.

However that goes both ways and I sort of wish I could have agreed with you but I just do not believe out, we know the real risks enough to be confident the UK will not do far worse.

Germany is, as is Spain now too indicating rather strongly that any trading deals with the EU,the free movement of EU citizens has to be the main issue.

I believe we will get a trading deal over 2 to3 years with the EU but I feel as sure as I can be, that our govts negotiators will have to still accept the free movement of EU citizens.
I also think the UK govt, whatever it is at the time, will in the end accept that free movement still,in order to get the best deal possible.

In any event, in my view,If the UK population still demands German cars, we will have to import them,whatever extra costs there may be imposed on us to do so.

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't know why people assume that if the UK leaves the EU we will somehow have to go cap in hand to them begging for trade deals. lol This is ludicrous. It is a two way street. The EU needs the UK more than we need them. If they demand free movement we say no and trade with the rest of the world instead unrestricted by EU regulations.

[Jack_]

I asked you very simple questions ages ago Joey and you didn't answer them so you saying you do answer questions it is selective on your part. You didn't answer my questions Joey.
I'll post them again below so if you could please answer them both it would be greatly appreciated.

1: How much lower will immigration numbers be if we remain in the EU?
2: If we remain in the EU will the UK's cash contribution decrease or increase?

The answers to those questions are quite simple.

Not everyone gives a **** about immigration levels.

And the amount of money we'd save if we left the EU is irrelevant in the hands of this government, it's not as if they're going to spend it on anything worthwhile is it? Like I don't know...building more housing, or improving the NHS or our education system. So it's a moot point, it'll be money down the drain for the majority of the electorate.

[Johnnyuk123]

The answers to those questions are quite simple.

Not everyone gives a **** about immigration levels.

And the amount of money we'd save if we left the EU is irrelevant in the hands of this government, it's not as if they're going to spend it on anything worthwhile is it? Like I don't know...building more housing, or improving the NHS or our education system. So it's a moot point, it'll be money down the drain for the majority of the electorate.

Hi Jack.
Your right in many respects for sure Jack but in spite of that at least the money will be going down a UK drain and will be accounted for regardless of how it has been spent.

[joeysteele]

What you have just posted above are also if's and buts too Joey because the reality of the situation of IN or OUT is that no one actually knows for certain. Not me or you. No one but the un elected presidents of the EU who will decide for me and for you. From reading your posts i take it you are pro democracy. The EU is anti democracy. So i hope you understand just what you are giving up. You mentioned gambling, if you were to bet etc... You have also clearly stated in other posts that you are not willing to gamble on this issue so i'm confused now because to me voting to remain IN the EU is a massive gamble. Democracy is something you yourself cherish. That will be gone if the vote to remain wins on the 23rd of June. Also throughout this whole campaign you have asked quite rightly for assurances from those wanting to leave the EU. It isn't a one way street Joey i too could ask you for assurances on why we should remain within the EU.

I have answered that.

We are in the EU, we know what it is like we know what is likely to come, we have decades of experience of being in the EU, of course we have a much better and clearer picture of what in looks like and is likely to be.

There are always ifs and maybes, there have been many over our decades in the EU but we have come through them, in the EU and still prospered as a Nation a successful economy and Worlds 5th biggest.

So that is the answer of remain, it is all remain ever had to do,point out all we have achieved, done and worked through and dealt with while in the EU for decades.

It was always for the leave side to get out there and substantiate any claim it made that things could be better or even the same.
That they have not done, they have no support and real substantiation as to their claims from any major Nations or anyone we will even need to deal with more, if out.

the experience, the facts and the example of what we have done and how things are as a member of the EU for decades is there for all to see.
Our continued success and status,there for all to see.

It is for the leave side to show fully with full facts that we can do the same for sure or even better if out.

You are looking at all those decades of experience and example of the UK being in the EU and you have decided you want out.
I have done the same and think the opposite I want to stay in from that example and experience of being in the EU, I have witnessed.

You show me with facts that are substantiated that our success and status will not threatened, or downgraded any way,if we leave.
Also show me the facts from anywhere that says for sure, we will not have to accept free movement of EU citizens in the end to get a trading deal with the EU.
Then you are likely to have an argument backed up more.

[Johnnyuk123]

I have answered that.

We are in the EU, we know what it is like we know what is likely to come, we have decades of experience of being in the EU, of course we have a much better and clearer picture of what in looks like and is likely to be.

There are always ifs and maybes, there have been many over our decades in the EU but we have come through them, in the EU and still prospered as a Nation a successful economy and Worlds 5th biggest.

So that is the answer of remain, it is all remain ever had to do,point out all we have achieved, done and worked through and dealt with while in the EU for decades.

It was always for the leave side to get out there and substantiate any claim it made that things could be better or even the same.
That they have not done, they have no support and real substantiation as to their claims from any major Nations or anyone we will even need to deal with more, if out.

the experience, the facts and the example of what we have done and how things are as a member of the EU for decades is there for all to see.
Our continued success and status,there for all to see.

It is for the leave side to show fully with full facts that we can do the same for sure or even better if out.

You are looking at all those decades of experience and example of the UK being in the EU and you have decided you want out.
I have done the same and think the opposite I want to stay in from that example and experience of being in the EU, I have witnessed.

You show me with facts that are substantiated that our success and status will not threatened, or downgraded any way,if we leave.
Also show me the facts from anywhere that says for sure, we will not have to accept free movement of EU citizens in the end to get a trading deal with the EU.
Then you are likely to have an argument backed up more.

For some reason you think that the UK needs the EU trade deals to survive. The UK needs it's hand held by the EU or we will just vanish from the face of the earth. :shrug: There is a whole new world out there Joey with new deals to be made that are currently not allowed under EU rules. The EU is small fry in a very large pond. It stops the UK from trading with other countries outside of the EU. You seriously believe that the UK as the 5th largest economy is all down to the help of being in the EU? Seriously? The EU economy like i said before... in 1980 it was at 30%, today it is just under 17% and getting worse and you want to vote for that?

[Johnnyuk123]

Joey there are 12 days to go before the vote. My vote will cancel out your vote and visa versa so why not just chill out on this whole issue and just let the rest of the people in the UK decide. No need to be knocking on doors in the hope that you are gonna change someones mind. Remember your mind can't be changed on this issue as can't mine and i am certain many people have already made their minds up on this issue so there's too cannot be changed so you knocking on their door is only gonna annoy them.

[joeysteele]

Joey there are 12 days to go before the vote. My vote will cancel out your vote and visa versa so why not just chill out on this whole issue and just let the rest of the people in the UK decide. No need to be knocking on doors in the hope that you are gonna change someones mind. Remember your mind can't be changed on this issue as can't mine and i am certain many people have already made their minds up on this issue so there's too cannot be changed so you knocking on their door is only gonna annoy them.

How offensive.
That is impertinent,out of line and out of order,Kindly don't tell me what to do.
What has it got to do with you what other members do when it is asked of them.

I am member of the Labour party,and proud to be so, I will go out canvassing with Conservatives, Lib dems, UKIP and all other parties which also are doing if I have the time and am asked to.

You would likely, then again not, be amazed at the people who have been grateful for us at their doors and the numbers that come up to us at the street stalls too.I will do all I can to present my view as to why I want to stay in to anyone undecided, 'if' they wish me to.

It doesn't annoy anyone at all I have found and really don't dare start presuming I would do anything to annoy anyone either.

I will do with my time and my life what I want to do, with thankfully no assistance needed from you at all.

[Johnnyuk123]

How offensive.
That is impertinent,out of line and out of order,Kindly don't tell me what to do.
What has it got to do with you what other members do when it is asked of them.

I am member of the Labour party,and proud to be so, I will go out canvassing with Conservatives, Lib dems, UKIP and all other parties which also are doing if I have the time and am asked to.

You would likely, then again not, be amazed at the people who have been grateful for us at their doors and the numbers that come up to us at the street stalls too.I will do all I can to present my view as to why I want to stay in to anyone undecided, 'if' they wish me to.

It doesn't annoy anyone at all I have found and really don't dare start presuming I would do anything to annoy anyone either.

I will do with my time and my life what I want to do, with thankfully no assistance needed from you at all.

That is where you and me differ. I am not out to convince anyone to vote either IN or OUT of the EU. That is each persons personal choice. It's called democracy and i believe that people should be allowed to make up their own minds without having someone bang on their door force feeding them lies and scare stories in order to alter a vote.

[Kizzy]

KIZZY - the first article by John King which I posted, and the second article by him which you posted, says it ALL really if we are truthful.

This issue of the UK's membership of the EU transcends British domestic political parties and the decision we all have to make on the 23rd of June is the THE most vitaly important decision we will ever have to make in the past 50 years.

Genuine socialists say it, and HONEST capitalists who have no covert vested interests say it - WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE corrupt, money-draining shambles that is the EU if we are to survive as a country.

Your excellent article by King not only ANSWERS all those sneering but misguided 'Remain' supporters who unfairly label anyone who is genuinely concerned about the untenable levels of unscreened immigration to this tiny island as xenophobic or racist or 'Little Englanders', it also explains just why they are misguided.

It not only explains WHY it is perfectly alright to be Patriotic, but it also defines the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism - which is not alright.

"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."

The darling of the TRUE left - Owen Jones advocates Brexit and says that by Brexiting the left can reconnect with working-class communities it lost touch with long ago.

Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart - both Brexiteers - are more honourable than a thousand Jeremy Corbyns and John McDonnells - because they are TRUE to their left wing socialist Tony Benn/Michael Foot principles.

A 56 per cent majority of 2015 Labour voters – seen as pivotal to the result – support the 'REMAIN' campaign whilst 62 per cent of Tory voters want 'OUT', which is WHY the despicable, self-serving, great deceiver David Cameron NEEDS the support of Labour voters to succeed in his plot to keep the UK in the EU.

How truly bitterly ironic will it be, if the majority of Tories - the perceived party of Business and Profits - vote to leave the corporatist, anti-democratic, anti-socialist, anti-proletariat EU, while Labour KEEP US IN?

I for one, will NEVER forgive the Labour Party should Labour votes enable Cameron to succeed.

Here is another excellent explanatory article by Brendan O'Neill - The Left Wing Editor of 'Spiked':

The strange death of left-wing Euroscepticism
l

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/the-strange-death-of-left-wing-euroscepticism/

and another:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/17/leftwing-eurosceptics-eu-british-left

Where is my post?... :/

[erinp5]

Remain .

[Johnnyuk123]

Latest poll says 55% will vote to leave the EU.

[joeysteele]

That is where you and me differ. I am not out to convince anyone to vote either IN or OUT of the EU. That is each persons personal choice. It's called democracy and i believe that people should be allowed to make up their own minds without having someone bang on their door force feeding them lies and scare stories in order to alter a vote.

I give my view to them when asked, we only ask initially if they have decided to vote.
If they wish to ask us anything they can.
Just as in any campaign, referendum or election.

Now you are accusing me of telling lies to people at their doors.
Really I am sick of this baiting of me from you,you have done it on more than one occasion,cut it out right now because really I do not even wish to converse with you, you are totally offensive and disrespectful.

What right have you at all to tell other members what they should and should not do in their personal lives off here.
Sheer ignorance.

[Johnnyuk123]

I give my view to them when asked, we only ask initially if they have decided to vote.
If they wish to ask us anything they can.
Just as in any campaign, referendum or election.

Really I am sick of this baiting of me from you,you have done it on more than one occasion,cut it out right now because really I do not even wish to converse with you, you are totally offensive and disrespectful.

What right have you to tell other members what they should and should not do in their personal lives off here.
Sheer ignorance.

I'm sorry but do not go to the (i am baiting you default option again in here) you've done this to death with The Truth and Kirk and others as your get out clause for not being able to answer simple questions posed to you from them. That IS offensive.
The fact that you feel the need to bang on peoples door to gain votes for the remain party speaks volumes. But again DO NOT implicate that me or anyone on here who is for the brexit is baiting you because that is a total cop out.

[Adamw92]

Still undecided

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Collaborate to remain but apply the Leave campaign's controlled border idea.

[joeysteele]

I'm sorry but do not go to the (i am baiting you default option again in here) you've done this to death with The Truth and Kirk and others as your get out clause for not being able to answer simple questions posed to you from them. That IS offensive.
The fact that you feel the need to bang on peoples door to gain votes for the remain party speaks volumes. But again DO NOT implicate that me or anyone on here who is for the brexit is baiting you because that is a total cop out.

We find the leave side knocking on doors too, you are grossly offensive.

You know what, I am sick to death of you and your nastiness, I will not discuss with you the truth or Kirk, indeed you should not be either,however I actually do have respect for Kirk anyway.

There you are have it your way, I refuse to spend another day on this forum with you.
I just hope one day you are seen for what you are as to your baiting and insults to other members.
Good riddance I say,the sooner I never have to read your prejudiced insults and disrespect to other members,especially myself, the better.

You are in my view anyway,plain ignorant.

[jaxie]

This is an interesting article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747)

Particularly this bit: "In is in. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of the British people."
For some business leaders sympathetic to Brexit - and close to the Prime Minister - this is a problem.
They agree that leaving the single market could result in significant economic headwinds.
But, they tell me, there is a solution - the UK remaining in the single market but without the need for full free movement as presently constituted.
And they are in discussions with German businesses to make the case for a different structure if the vote goes their way.
It would work like this:
Britain votes to leave the EU.
Negotiations begin on Britain's new relationship with the EU.
The UK offers to maintain at least part of its contribution to the EU budget - at present about £8.5bn a year including rebates and EU support for British agriculture and research.
In return, Britain withdraws from the free movement of people requirements but allows for a lesser "free movement of labour" which allows for workers from the EU to come to the UK with a firm job offer.
One senior City figure I spoke to who is pro-Brexit said that German businesses were "petrified" of the UK leaving the single market.
He argued that "Mittelstand" firms - the medium sized companies that are the engine room of the German economy - would demand that political leaders do a deal to allow goods unfettered access to the UK.
And vice versa.

So you see there are options and deals to be done, deals that will never be done if we don't leave, deals that are much more palatable to us as a people. If people vote remain, this will never happen. There will be no options, no negotiations, the UK will be expected to toe the line. Leave is not the land of doubt some people think it is, already negotiations are going on in secret. You can bet on that.

Other EU countries are also concerned about the economic effect on their domestic economy if the UK leaves, and, those sympathetic to Brexit believe, politicians would be under similar business pressure to "do a free trade deal".
A little noticed study in the Netherlands by the country's Bureau for Economic Analysis said this: "By 2030, the costs for the Netherlands [of Brexit] could run up to 1.2% of GDP, or 10 billion euros.
"And, if we also assume innovation is trade‐induced as recent examples in the literature have shown, then the Brexit‐related costs of 10 billion euros could increase by another 65%."
The report suggests that if the UK does vote to leave there would need to be some form of free trade agreement, although not with all the advantages of the present single market.
"It would not be able to completely restore the current full access to the internal market," the report says.
"[But] should the EU and the UK reach a free trade agreement, the economic consequences of a Brexit for the Netherlands would be reduced by 20% [in the] absence of trade tariffs for goods traded between the EU and the UK."

[Kizzy]

We don't have a sovereign..... we have a figurehead that is all, purely for decoration 'sovereignty' for the UK would mean one thing...Autocracy.

[smudgie]

Have already voted.
Out.

[bots]

I'm sorry but do not go to the (i am baiting you default option again in here) you've done this to death with The Truth and Kirk and others as your get out clause for not being able to answer simple questions posed to you from them. That IS offensive.
The fact that you feel the need to bang on peoples door to gain votes for the remain party speaks volumes. But again DO NOT implicate that me or anyone on here who is for the brexit is baiting you because that is a total cop out.

johnny, you are out of order on this. Joey is heavily involved in politics, has been for a while, and he shouldn't be criticized for that

[Mystic Mock]

That is where you and me differ. I am not out to convince anyone to vote either IN or OUT of the EU. That is each persons personal choice. It's called democracy and i believe that people should be allowed to make up their own minds without having someone bang on their door force feeding them lies and scare stories in order to alter a vote.

So you would encourage people to vote in these Referendums and Elections without knowing all of the facts? This is why people like Joey are needed.

And also have you not read the Daily Mail? They spread lies for a living.

[_Tom_]

I don’t find anything wrong with canvassing, both Leave and Remain do this. From what I know it involves going door to door and asking the person if they are voting – and how they are voting. It’s less about convincing a person and more about being a presence – answering any questions they may have – engaging with the voting public.

[Tozzie]

so instead of fighting to change our own government , give up and try to change an unelected parliament of 30 countries and 500 million+ people and tens of thosuands of politcians?
lol

totally illogical and totally undemocratic and wholly ineffective

keep sovereignty and keep democracy and simply fight the government on every single issue...thats how democracy works, you should throw it away for ANYTHING....least of all a wasteful bankrupt corporate cartel of unelected crooks

:thumbs: Good post

[Johnnyuk123]

johnny, you are out of order on this. Joey is heavily involved in politics, has been for a while, and he shouldn't be criticized for that

I am heavily involved in music so does that mean people cannot dismiss any composition i compose? If Joey is in fact a politician then i am in fact Donald Duck.

[kirklancaster]

Here's a new song which I am recording in time to be played before the 23rd. Play the backing track and sing along to it as you dance. It's a lot more fun than listening to Cameron and Osborne's B.S 'Better Off In The EU' lies.

CAM THE SHAM AND THE SCAREHO'S
"Sullied Bullies"

/watch?v=xntFgrpnbO0

Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro
Osborne told Cameron, he had a surprise.
“The pubic's started rumbling, all our fecking lies.”
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Cameron told Osborne, "That's gonna hurt our campaign” .
“We need a diversion, so attack Boris again”.
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Osborne told Cameron, "That's the thing to do.”
But we can still keep lying and scaring the uk too ."
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies,Sullied Bullies.

[MB.]

Discussion seems to be split between the two threads for some reason, but The Sun are now officially in favour of Brexit, meaning a leave vote is almost a certainty

[Kizzy]

I am heavily involved in music so does that mean people cannot dismiss any composition i compose? If Joey is in fact a politician then i am in fact Donald Duck.

Who said he was a politician? I think you're a duck.

[Black Dagger]

Discussion seems to be split between the two threads for some reason, but The Sun are now officially in favour of Brexit, meaning a leave vote is almost a certainty

How depressing.

[MB.]

How depressing.

Reminds me of the quote:

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

[Johnnyuk123]

Here's a new song which I am recording in time to be played before the 23rd. Play the backing track and sing along to it as you dance. It's a lot more fun than listening to Cameron and Osborne's B.S 'Better Off In The EU' lies.

CAM THE SHAM AND THE SCAREHO'S
"Sullied Bullies"

/watch?v=xntFgrpnbO0

Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro
Osborne told Cameron, he had a surprise.
“The pubic's started rumbling, all our fecking lies.”
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Cameron told Osborne, "That's gonna hurt our campaign” .
“We need a diversion, so attack Boris again”.
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Osborne told Cameron, "That's the thing to do.”
But we can still keep lying and scaring the uk too ."
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies,Sullied Bullies.

Hi Kirk,
That video link doesn't work. See if you can re upload it or something.
Anyway while your fixing the link you can always get in the party mood by watching this music video.

VIEt_tZCHbM

[Johnnyuk123]

Lies told to Norway before they rejected EU membership BREXIT VOTE EXIT

YZcolMY4VLA

[Gstar]

Remain

[Mokka]

Here's a new song which I am recording in time to be played before the 23rd. Play the backing track and sing along to it as you dance. It's a lot more fun than listening to Cameron and Osborne's B.S 'Better Off In The EU' lies.

CAM THE SHAM AND THE SCAREHO'S

"Sullied Bullies"


xntFgrpnbO0

Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro
Osborne told Cameron, he had a surprise.
“The pubic's started rumbling, all our fecking lies.”
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Cameron told Osborne, "That's gonna hurt our campaign” .
“We need a diversion, so attack Boris again”.
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies.

Osborne told Cameron, "That's the thing to do.”
But we can still keep lying and scaring the uk too ."
We're Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bulliies,
Sullied Bullies, Sullied Bullies,Sullied Bullies.


Where were you for TiBB Eurovision Kirky :fist:

[Rob!]

If I'm perfectly honest, I have no idea. Mainly because I fully admit I have no idea what will happen either way. What I do know is that there are people that I consider to be absolute bastards in the public eye who want out so by that logic I say remain.
I think there are quite a lot of voters (and no I am not including anybody on this forum in this statement) that want out because they see it as a way of getting the immigration crisis under control (or in their mind, "kicking out the foreigners," a phrase that has actually been said to me more than once) and know nothing more about it and anybody who doesn't think that at least 30% of voters for out don't fall into that category are kidding themselves.