time to sign the 2nd referendum petition?

[the truth]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i know theres some frauds but 3.9 million is a lot even if 25% are fake

[letmein]

The entire petition was faked by 4chan.

[reece(:]

I've signed her!

[jaxie]

Premature.

[Cherie]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i know theres some frauds but 3.9 million is a lot even if 25% are fake


Okay this is a joke right? You have wanted out of the EU no question, now we have made our bed, Cameron won't reverse this, his revenge for people being so stupid is to let them lie in it

[Liberty4eva]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i know theres some frauds but 3.9 million is a lot even if 25% are fake

A 2nd referendum will make Great Britain look like a complete circus and a joke on the world stage. A part of me might want to watch that type of drama and entertainment play out. It's not going to affect my life at all so if the Brits want to do it, go for it. :laugh:

[Ammi]

...so which is worse, that we've shunned the EU or that we're not a country that can make any decisions..it doesn't really make any difference now does it.../the damage as they say has been done and can't be undone...anyways, no matter what my personal feelings, it was a democratic vote and I believe in democracy so it has to stand...

[Cherie]

A 2nd referendum will make Great Britain look like a complete circus and a joke on the world stage. A part of me might want to watch that type of drama and entertainment play out. It's not going to affect my life at all so if the Brits want to do it, go for it. :laugh:

We are already a laughing stock and people like you with your views are also

[Liberty4eva]

...so which is worse, that we've shunned the EU or that we're not a country that can make any decisions..it doesn't really make any difference now does it.../the damage as they say has been done and can't be undone...anyways, no matter what my personal feelings, it was a democratic vote and I believe in democracy so it has to stand...

:clap1:

[Liberty4eva]

We are already a laughing stock and people like you with your views are also

I kind of get the feeling that you don't like me. :bawling:

[Cherie]

...so which is worse, that we've shunned the EU or that we're not a country that can make any decisions..it doesn't really make any difference now does it.../the damage as they say has been done and can't be undone...anyways, no matter what my personal feelings, it was a democratic vote and I believe in democracy so it has to stand...


I've thought about this Ammi the vote built on lies though and like a government that gets elected on false promises that they never carry out, why do the British people have to go through with this? If the leave campaign were to honour any of their promises I would say yes, this has to stand, but given that they aren't I think the 49 per cent who voted to stay have a right to demand a new referendum.

[Cherie]

I kind of get the feeling that you don't like me. :bawling:

I'm sure you are lovely I just don't like your views

[Ammi]

I've thought about this Ammi the vote built on lies though and like a government that gets elected on a false promises that they never carry out, why do the British people have to go through with this? If the leave campaign were to honour any of their promises I would say yes, this has to stand, but given that they aren't I think the 49 per cent who voted to stay have a right to demand a new referendum.

..I do think it's wrong that those lies/liars will not have any accountability for their actions, Cherie...but even in a revote and a possible different outcome...?...I don't think that it will change any perceptions toward us from the rest of the world...you can't open Pandora's box and then re-close it again so easily...(well not literally Pandora's box/end of the world type thing but you know what I mean..)...but once something has been 'released' like this then the control of it is lost as well...it's not about us anymore like it was with the voting, it's now about how we're perceived and the damage that has done...

[Cherie]

..I do think it's wrong that those lies/liars will not have any accountability for their actions, Cherie...but even in a revote and a possible different outcome...?...I don't think that it will change any perceptions toward us from the rest of the world...you can't open Pandora's box and then re-close it again so easily...(well not literally Pandora's box/end of the world type thing but you know what I mean..)...but once something has been 'released' like this then the control of it is lost as well...it's not about us anymore like it was with the voting, it's now about how we're perceived and the damage that has done...

I agree with that, I heard someone refer to it as the "Letting the genie out of the bottle"..

[Liberty4eva]

t0ghuUwYT8E

[bots]

At a snapshot in time, we voted out. and 50% of the population are pissed, the only reason to hold another vote would be to reverse the decision, so its pointless having the vote, just reverse it. However, if we do that, 50% of the population will still be pissed, it won't have changed the division that has been created in the country.

The negotiations are a nebulous thing, so we do have an opportunity to find a solution that the majority of the country will be happy with, irrespective of the vote. The question is, do we trust those that represent us in the negotiations. I think the answer is absolutely not, which is why we are seeing all the upheaval in westminster right now. None of them can be trusted. We have evidence, very recent evidence, that they are all a bunch of liars. That's the real problem, and the issue that must be resolved.

[Ellen]

You can argue about it until the cows come home but it was a Democratic vote and it should stand.

[joeysteele]

I've thought about this Ammi the vote built on lies though and like a government that gets elected on false promises that they never carry out, why do the British people have to go through with this? If the leave campaign were to honour any of their promises I would say yes, this has to stand, but given that they aren't I think the 49 per cent who voted to stay have a right to demand a new referendum.


The problem with referenda is that they definitely have uncertain outcomes,David Cameron really should have re-thought this after the Scottish Independence referendum.
Margaret Thatcher called referenda a failure of govt, who are 'elected' to make the decisions.

There will I feel sure,never be a referendum held on the death penalty, because the majority of elected MPs are against it but the public would likely massively vote for it.

This is not a democratic referendum,it also is not apparently legally binding on the govt and it produced a small majority of total votes of only 4%,with 50% of the nations of the UK voting to remain and 50% to leave.

That also should be taken into consideration.

In 1979, there was a devolution vote in Scotland,which resulted in a narrow win for the support of same,the Conservative govt of the time refused to grant devolution.
Partly on the premise of consideration that voters who do not vote give consent to the status quo.

I accept there was an overall votes cast vote to leave but so small it should not be binding,of course David Cameron and the govt should have put locks in place,even that 3 Nations of the UK had to support one way or the other, or a minimum majority.
I think it was MTVN who said, there should be a majority lock on this to be binding.

FoR me however, to call this democracy is, sorry but its laughable, all that has swung this result is the bigger Country of the UK,with its greater population it has dictated the result of this referendum,combining the other 3 Nations vote, it would have been a vote to remain.

I cannot think of anything less democratic actually where there are supposed to be 4 equal as to status Nations in a United kingdom but where the strength of the larger one dictates near all the time.

MPs should be asked if they wish to implement this referendum result,they all got elected last year on their pro EU or anti EU stances,and over 400 of them are pro EU, with the rest against.

I have come across so many people who really believed the £350million weekly cost to the EU,blatant misleading lie, not from Farage, being fair to him,who has for the main part of the campaign used the nett figure and not that misleading one.
I have come across people who voted leave who are labour voters, doing so to get rid of Cameron thinking that would get them a Labour govt after the vote.
I have come across people who voted leave, really believing it meant all immigrants would be stopped right now from coming and all here would be sent out the Country.
Awful, sinister and it should be unacceptable.
Absolutely wrong and even bonkers.

This was the most filthy gutter trash campaign I have seen that has whipped up hatred against people who have lived here for decades and who were even born here.

For that prejudice in a fair sized minority part, voting as to the result, for them to be now rewarded with success on top of the fact 2 Nations of the UK voted, by a larger margin, as to percentage of votes cast, to remain, now just to be dismissed is and should be actually an affront to democracy.
More to the point such views should not be encouraged for the future by allowing success for same either.

As the analysis of this result is done,it has not given a really clear view,it should not be binding and I would support the MPs, if they had the courage to, to vote this down as being inconclusive.

The awful gloating too from the leave side, not the campaigners,the supporters of, are also only fuelling this racial and xenophobic distrust and hate against people in the UK now.
Equally they are a disgrace to any kind of so called democracy too.

This decision comes from in the main a minority's prejudices, not just against foreigners in the UK, living and working but even against the other Nations of the UK, such as Scotland, some comments as to Scotland are as anti as they are to EU and other people from other Countries.
That bad attitude used even towards another Nation of the UK.

The biggest joke and saddest joke of all has to be, we are called the United Kingdom, not at all are we, anything but,we are now more divided than ever, we are only a United Kingdom when the majority of England 'only' gets its way and that is all that has to be accepted in this so called democracy.

This referendum,this shocking divisive campaign and the result standing afterwards,is a stain on the UK and its democracy, not a recommendation for it in my opinion.

However, no thank you, not another referendum on this issue, the resentment and hate of a good minority of leave minded people would be fuelled further and likely get worse.
MPs have to take a responsible lead here now in the national interest, not Party or any other but for what is really good for the UK overall.
getting the very best deal for the UK, and for me that is in the single market and if that means we have to still accept the free movement of EU citizens, so be it.

We must never allow racial prejudice or xenophobia, no matter what strength it's minority may have as to numbers, to have any place in the major decisions or votes of anything as to the UK.

[smudgie]

No.
We all had an equal chance at voting, it went in the favour of out so that's the way it should go.
It was a serious referendum not a game of rock, paper scissors.

[arista]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i know theres some frauds but 3.9 million is a lot even if 25% are fake


NO NO NO



there is no 2nd one.

Confirmed yesterday in Parliament
by David Cameron UK PM

Its Done.
Stop Moaning

[arista]

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/spiked-online.com/images/father_jack.jpg

[user104658]

Wouldn't make a difference, the damage is done. In-out-in-out just makes us look unstable... finance and investment in the UK has been significantly damaged for decades either way (which makes us pretty screwed because we don't have much else propping up our economy)

[Northern Monkey]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

i know theres some frauds but 3.9 million is a lot even if 25% are fake

Are you feeling ok?

[Vicky.]

On the one hand I think that the vote should stand as it was a democratic vote and leave won

On the other hand, the amount of people regretting their leave vote that I have spoken to is absolutely insane. Most now admit/know that the leave campaign was largely based on lies. The main points were immigration and the NHS thing. Both taken back the DAY after the vote was taken. As such, leave won by duping people, or so it appears. So I kinda think a second vote would be fair as now people actually KNOW what they are voting for, know immigration is unlikely to change...which would significantly affect the voting IMO as so many voted solely as they thought we would be rid of 'those foreigners' :S

Having a second vote though now would pretty much guarantee riots. I wish people had looked into the whole thing more before voting...I really do. Since when do we just blindly believe politicians?!

[Livia]

While we're at it, can we demand a replay of the England Iceland match? I didn't like that result either, so surely we can demand another crack at it?

[arista]

"On the other hand"

No Vicky thats does not apply
OUR PM has said no more Refs



We Want Our Country back

[Denver]

saying 17 million peoples opinion is wrong and irrelevant is not the way to go when trying to patch up a broken country

[user104658]

saying 17 million peoples opinion is wrong and irrelevant is not the way to go when trying to patch up a broken country

But saying that 16 million peoples is, I suppose.

[Cherie]

While we're at it, can we demand a replay of the England Iceland match? I didn't like that result either, so surely we can demand another crack at it?


Oh yeah that's a very comparable analogy..not

[Tom4784]

It's a pointless endeavor, a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side and now they need to live with the consequences of their ill thought out actions.

[Livia]

Oh yeah that's a very comparable analogy..not

No? You don't think so? I'm crushed.

My point is, for those who haven't grasped it, is... the decision is made, a democratic election has taken place, it has been counted and verified by returning officers up and down the land... end of story. Otherwise, what's the point in having an election?

[Denver]

But saying that 16 million peoples is, I suppose.

thats totally different 33 million people went into a booth to tick one of 2 boxes which ever box had the most votes won and that was always the case you can change it because you disagree plus without a current prime minister that decision can not be made.

fyi i bet non of them would kicked up a fuss had remain won

[Livia]

It's a pointless endeavor, a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side and now they need to live with the consequences of their ill thought out actions.

A damning indictment for anyone who doesn't share your view, Dezzy. I knew exactly what I was voting for, as did everyone I know who voted to leave. I took a long time to make up my mind and read a huge amount of materials. And yet I'm still accused of not knowing what I'm doing. Even by people who didn't bloody bother to vote! Rich...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It is a simple example that we are not the mature democracy that we thought we were

[Livia]

It is a simple example that we are not the mature democracy that we thought we were

It's a simple example that people have learned that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Not in this case though.

[Cherie]

No? You don't think so? I'm crushed.

My point is, for those who haven't grasped it, is... the decision is made, a democratic election has taken place, it has been counted and verified by returning officers up and down the land... end of story. Otherwise, what's the point in having an election?

Well to be fair it isn't even original having seen it about 10 times on an expat forum this morning

[Livia]

Well to be fair it isn't even original having seen it about 10 times on an expat forum this morning

Well, I've been working this morning so I've not seen it.

Is this going to be a thing now? We can judge which posts are original? Or is this just for me?

[Tom4784]

A damning indictment for anyone who doesn't share your view, Dezzy. I knew exactly what I was voting for, as did everyone I know who voted to leave. I took a long time to make up my mind and read a huge amount of materials. And yet I'm still accused of not knowing what I'm doing. Even by people who didn't bloody bother to vote! Rich...

It's only damning to you if you misread it.

I said 'a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side' I'm talking about the swing voters who flooded Google's search requests asking what the EU is after they had voted on our fate, voters who were naive enough to believe writing on a bus and the fact that leaving the EU would have an effect on Immigration from the middle east.

A lot of people voted for a massive change without understanding what that change would be, that's just a fact that will become more and more apparent over the coming months and years.

[Livia]

It's only damning to you if you misread it.

I said 'a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side' I'm talking about the swing voters who flooded Google's search requests asking what the EU is after they had voted on our fate, voters who were naive enough to believe writing on a bus and the fact that leaving the EU would have an effect on Immigration from the middle east.

A lot of people voted for a massive change without understanding what that change would be, that's just a fact that will become more and more apparent over the coming months and years.

And likewise, a lot of people voted to remain without the first clue what it meant or why. If there's one thing we can agree on it's that if you wanted information about the effects of the in/out vote, you had to look bloody hard for it when it should have been freely available to everyone.

[Cherie]

Well, I've been working this morning so I've not seen it.

Is this going to be a thing now? We can judge which posts are original? Or is this just for me?

Original or not it's still not a comparable analogy, given apart from the initial disappointment we can move on with our lives unscathed

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's only damning to you if you misread it.

I said 'a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side' I'm talking about the swing voters who flooded Google's search requests asking what the EU is after they had voted on our fate, voters who were naive enough to believe writing on a bus and the fact that leaving the EU would have an effect on Immigration from the middle east.

A lot of people voted for a massive change without understanding what that change would be, that's just a fact that will become more and more apparent over the coming months and years.

Dezzy I swear you are a one man polling machine

'a bunch of people who didn't know what they were voting for swung the vote for the wrong side'

can we have the poll and the figures that you must have run to come to that conclusion?

surely you are not basing this on anecdotal evidence?

:shrug:

[Livia]

Original or not it's still not a comparable analogy, given apart from the initial disappointment we can move on with our lives unscathed

Have you made your point now? Can we move on?

[Tom4784]

And likewise, a lot of people voted to remain without the first clue what it meant or why. If there's one thing we can agree on it's that if you wanted information about the effects of the in/out vote, you had to look bloody hard for it when it should have been freely available to everyone.

Well no, to vote remain would be to keep the Status Quo so it's not really comparable since it's easier to understand the effects of remaining in the EU then it is to leave. A large section of voters very likely decided to throw this entire country off course on a whim.

[Livia]

Well no, to vote remain would be to keep the Status Quo so it's not really comparable since it's easier to understand the effects of remaining in the EU then it is to leave. A large section of voters very likely decided to throw this entire country off course on a whim.

I get that you're against the decision, Dezzy.... but it's a decision that's been made. If the Remain camp were as fired-up a week ago as they are now, the result would have been different. I'd suggest waiting to see what's going to happen because it's not going to be as bad as you're all predicting, quite the reverse. But there really isn't a choice.

[DemolitionRed]

The Constitutional Law Association have some very interesting discussions going on. Looking at the legalities behind this treaty, we still have a long way to go.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/blog/

Nick Barber, Tom Hickman and Jeff King https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/blog/

The King by his proclamation… cannot change any part of the common law, or statute law, or the customs of the realm…

Does this mean Cameron, under the 'Rule of Law' can not action Article 50?

If we need to have a new Act of Parliament to action Article 50 and a new Act of Parliament can only be actioned by MP's, we may soon discover that we are not leaving the EU after all because if we don't implement Article 50 then we can't leave the EU

[user104658]

I get that you're against the decision, Dezzy.... but it's a decision that's been made.

See I generally agree with this in principle, I really do. I was pro indy last summer, I voted Yes, and I was gutted when 55% voted "no". I also believed that a huge chunk of that vote was based on lies (which has, unquestionably, turned out to be true). However I accepted that that was simply the lay of the land. 55% No, 45% Yes. If the vote had been cast a month earlier, a week later, months later, the figure would have been the same, truly the will of the people whether I agree with it or not. I still reserve the right to complain but I wasn't one of those stupidly demanding an immediate re-vote.

I am not so convinced this time around though... I don't think the result would stand. I don't think it would even be close - I think there could easily be a HUGE swing to "Remain" - and that feels like a problem? I don't know what the solution is... but, if the majority of a voting public are no longer represented accurately less than a week after a vote... it just seems like something has gone very wrong with the democratic process.


However, like I said earlier I think another vote would do more harm than good. Things will stabilise of course. In my opinion they will stabilise in a position where the country and each of us indvidually is worse off... but, it will at least be "calm waters" eventually... we will know where we stand. The damage of the out vote is done and a revote would only mean more uncertainty on top of that, chipping away the foundations, and only making things yet worse.

However I'm not going to pretend that the current state of affairs represents the current will of British people as a whole. It just doesn't.

[Wizard.]

I think everyone should follow this link and report this fraudulent and undemocratic petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/feedback

[Tom4784]

I get that you're against the decision, Dezzy.... but it's a decision that's been made. If the Remain camp were as fired-up a week ago as they are now, the result would have been different. I'd suggest waiting to see what's going to happen because it's not going to be as bad as you're all predicting, quite the reverse. But there really isn't a choice.

I'm not disputing the decision, like I said in my first post on this topic. I don't want a second Referendum. I want people to face the reality of the choices they've made but I'm also going to have an opinion on it and you just have to deal with that.

There's no way to know how bad it's going to be but the experts that Brexit supporters ignored because it didn't suit their narrative have been grim about the outcome and that's coming to pass. Blind optimism and naivety in place of solid plans got us into this mess in the first place, it's time to face up to reality and accept the fact that this won't blow over just because we want it to.

[lewis111]

It's a tricky one

The People voted and decided what they wanted and that's what happened, that's how a democracy works

But that fact that a huge chunk of the leave campaign was pure lies should be reason enough to to let people vote again now they know the real consequences of their vote

They know what happens when we are in the EU, and know what happens when we are not now

But it shouldn't be for at least a couple years in case things settle

[the truth]

Wouldn't make a difference, the damage is done. In-out-in-out just makes us look unstable... finance and investment in the UK has been significantly damaged for decades either way (which makes us pretty screwed because we don't have much else propping up our economy)

well actually the stock market has pretty much recovered most of the losses already after just 5 days lol

[Dollface]

How ridiculous would our country look if we voted again and this time decided to remain in the EU? Imo it's stupid to want another vote, the decision has been made. There's lots of decisions in life where you don't get a second chance, this should be one of them.

[the truth]

It's a tricky one

The People voted and decided what they wanted and that's what happened, that's how a democracy works

But that fact that a huge chunk of the leave campaign was pure lies should be reason enough to to let people vote again now they know the real consequences of their vote

They know what happens when we are in the EU, and know what happens when we are not now

But it shouldn't be for at least a couple years in case things settle




Ok what about this for an idea.....we negotiate with the EU regarding any and all possibilities....looking at all the rules we wish to abide by and over rule and the eec trade options....the eu simply have to be more flexible on their trade / open borders hard line stance.....they must understand the UK population rose 3.7 million in 10 years whereas germansy fell by 2 million in the same time period. so why dont the sit down and agree an immigration cap for uk and for countries that have had the most immigration and over population? the fact is the uk economy is growing wya quicker than others and wages too....so the people are always wnating to come here.....it has to see flexibility on both sides...IF some kind of compromise middle ground cna be found, then the government could either agree to that or put that new deal to a general election or a second referendum in months to come

[joeysteele]

Ok what about this for an idea.....we negotiate with the EU regarding any and all possibilities....looking at all the rules we wish to abide by and over rule and the eec trade options....the eu simply have to be more flexible on their trade / open borders hard line stance.....they must understand the UK population rose 3.7 million in 10 years whereas germansy fell by 2 million in the same time period. so why dont the sit down and agree an immigration cap for uk and for countries that have had the most immigration and over population? the fact is the uk economy is growing wya quicker than others and wages too....so the people are always wnating to come here.....it has to see flexibility on both sides...IF some kind of compromise middle ground cna be found, then the government could either agree to that or put that new deal to a general election or a second referendum in months to come

Yes,I would go for that.
That is a really good compromise on all sides 'the truth'.

[Cherie]

Yes,I would go for that.
That is a really good compromise on all sides 'the truth'.



Truth for PM :cheer:

[Kizzy]

No, I think the EU are done with us now we negotiated a deal in feb and still voted out, there are areas within the EU with much bigger problems than us so I think they are well within their rights to say ok UK foff now we have other things to do.

[user104658]

well actually the stock market has pretty much recovered most of the losses already after just 5 days lol
The stock market is global, if anything global markets recovering quickly in only an indication that (thankfully) the UK's status isn't as integral to global stability as some might have thought / dreamed. It's really no indication of the situation for the UK itself.
No, I think the EU are done with us now we negotiated a deal in feb and still voted out, there are areas within the EU with much bigger problems than us so I think they are well within their rights to say ok UK foff now we have other things to do.
To be fair Kizzy that's too extreme to be realistic. With the UK being a net "customer" for the EU (buying more than selling) a complete "f off" would create large holes in those countries' budgets. More likely is that the UK simply won't be able to negotiate terms that are even close to as favourable as they would like and so will end up "short" compared to trading within the union. There dies simply have to be a deal of some description... It's just this idea of Britain "dictating the terms" that is pure fantasy.

[Kizzy]

Yes that's sort of what I meant not a total FU but we will just have to go through the channels of all the other non EU countries with regard to negotiation, hence him putting a stop to private consultation with EU leaders directly.

[the truth]

No, I think the EU are done with us now we negotiated a deal in feb and still voted out, there are areas within the EU with much bigger problems than us so I think they are well within their rights to say ok UK foff now we have other things to do.

That attitude will backfire, it will massively hurt their own economies as uk buys more of their stuff than anyone else. uk is the richest per head country in europe and without any UK input a far bigger financial burden will fall upon germany and france to basically subsidise the long line of virtually bankrupt countries. The EU simply has to renegotiate its open borders ruling. As it stands


as usual the greatest visoinary poet of all time predicted this all


"The Times They Are A-Changin'"

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

[user104658]

uk is the richest per head country in europe

Errrrr I'm not sure where you're getting those figures Truth - we're 10th or 11th :umm2:

[_Tom_]

The only petition worth signing:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-nigel-farage-must-be-involved-in-the-brexit-negotiations-in-brussels

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ok what about this for an idea.....we negotiate with the EU regarding any and all possibilities....looking at all the rules we wish to abide by and over rule and the eec trade options....the eu simply have to be more flexible on their trade / open borders hard line stance.....they must understand the UK population rose 3.7 million in 10 years whereas germansy fell by 2 million in the same time period. so why dont the sit down and agree an immigration cap for uk and for countries that have had the most immigration and over population? the fact is the uk economy is growing wya quicker than others and wages too....so the people are always wnating to come here.....it has to see flexibility on both sides...IF some kind of compromise middle ground cna be found, then the government could either agree to that or put that new deal to a general election or a second referendum in months to come

The Germans are quite clear


No special deals for the UK, NO pick and choose - its all in in or all out.

Said it today on Daily Politics

[Tom4784]

The only petition worth signing:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-nigel-farage-must-be-involved-in-the-brexit-negotiations-in-brussels

God no, keep the hypocritical bobblehead away from it all. He's done enough damage.

[Kizzy]

The only petition worth signing:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-nigel-farage-must-be-involved-in-the-brexit-negotiations-in-brussels

No, nope and never... in that order.

[the truth]

The stock market is global, if anything global markets recovering quickly in only an indication that (thankfully) the UK's status isn't as integral to global stability as some might have thought / dreamed. It's really no indication of the situation for the UK itself.

To be fair Kizzy that's too extreme to be realistic. With the UK being a net "customer" for the EU (buying more than selling) a complete "f off" would create large holes in those countries' budgets. More likely is that the UK simply won't be able to negotiate terms that are even close to as favourable as they would like and so will end up "short" compared to trading within the union. There dies simply have to be a deal of some description... It's just this idea of Britain "dictating the terms" that is pure fantasy.
nope Im talking about ftse which is almost back where it started

[the truth]

The Germans are quite clear


No special deals for the UK, NO pick and choose - its all in in or all out.

Said it today on Daily Politics

lol they have to play hardball , its all negotiation. in the end its all down to merkel. she is no fool, she knows if she doesnt bend at all germany loses tens of billions , maybe 100s....and the right will rise again. she has to compromise eventually or EU will fall

[the truth]

Errrrr I'm not sure where you're getting those figures Truth - we're 10th or 11th :umm2:

lol were the 5th biggest economy in the world....our gdp per head is higher than france or germany....yes monaco is a higher gdp but theyre just an island of playboys

[Northern Monkey]

lol were the 5th biggest economy in the world....our gdp per head is higher than france or germany....yes monaco is a higher gdp but theyre just an island of playboys

True

[the truth]

up to 3.97 million now

[Tom4784]

The only thing worse than Brexit would be to instantly flip flop on it. We've got no real choice but to reap what we've sown at this point.

[reece(:]

The only petition worth signing:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-mp-nigel-farage-must-be-involved-in-the-brexit-negotiations-in-brussels

You can keep it

[Liberty4eva]

Next time the UK has the referendum the choices ought to be...

1. I want Britain to remain a member of the European Union
2. I need more time (and another referendum) to be educated on how foolish it would be to leave the EU

[kirklancaster]

A damning indictment for anyone who doesn't share your view, Dezzy. I knew exactly what I was voting for, as did everyone I know who voted to leave. I took a long time to make up my mind and read a huge amount of materials. And yet I'm still accused of not knowing what I'm doing. Even by people who didn't bloody bother to vote! Rich...

I second that. NO ONE on here or anywhere else is going to tell me that I was ignorant of the issues. I KNOW the issues only too well, like I know that those crying 'foul' are being seduced by ALL the propaganda from those in power and secret power who are desperate to FORCE the weak and spineless in this country to abandon Democracy and hold another referendum.

The stock market crash, the fall of Sterling, the sudden rise in reporting of racist incidents - which have ALWAYS existed but just not been reported in such a CONCERTED manner, the the fall in house prices.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

We HAD to get out of a deep trench which was collapsing on us, and once we went over the top, we KNEW that 'bullets and shells would be fired at us, well those rounds are BLANKS, so stop waving the white flag.

The stock market WILL recover - AFTER all the elite and powerful and wealthy have made BILLIONS from buying up those low shares and watching them recover before selling.

Ditto Sterling.

Ditto the 'property crash'.

THEY not only PERSONALLY win financially, they also win in their WELL PLANNED objective to bamboozle any spineless and witless who voted to 'LEAVE', to regret it, and to force ay spineless and witless who voted to 'REMAIN', to become more militant, so that COMBINED, both camps can TEST our resolve, and our Government's resolve, to abandon DEMOCRACY and surrender.

NOT ON MY WATCH.

Here - everybody calm their nerves by looking forward to the production of my new blockbuster - 'THE GOODFATHER':

7nqcgUDoV_M

'THE GOODFATHER'

INT. DAY: DON KIRKLEONE'S OFFICE (SUMMER 2016)

JOHNNY 'REMAIN' IS SEATED AT THE GOODFATHER'S DESK. HIS HEAD IS BURIED IN HIS HANDS AND HE IS WEEPING UNCONTROLLABLY.
THE DON IS SEATED BEHIND HIS DESK. HE WATCHES JOHNNY WITH A MIXTURE OF BEWILDERMENT AND CONTEMPT.

JOHNNY
I don't know what to do now Goodfather. That EU mob and their henchman – they're threatening us…. Ruining our economy. We are weak now… Weak without their protection. I can't take it.
(Sobs heavily)
What did we do? I'm scared… I can't get to sleep even
when I'm clutching my Teddy tightly…. Anyway, uh, if we could have another Referendum, ya'know, it would be be a different result. Maybe they'd pity us and take us back. We could increase the protection money – I mean increase the contribution that we pay them. That would do it Goodfather… (Pathetically) I mean… Wouldn't it? We'd be right back on top again. It's only been just over a week.

DON KIRKLEONE
Who are these people?*

JOHNNY
The big Corporations. The EU. The politicians… Everybody. We can't fight them… They're too big, too strong…. We're weak – Even you Goodfather – they're more powerful than you. I mean, it's only been less than a week now, and yet everybody's threatening us.
(sobs heavily)
These threats…. I can't sleep. I'm a quivering wreck. Oh, Goodfather, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. What can I do?

DON KIRKLEONE
(infuriated) You can act like a man!
(Slaps Johnny hard across his face)
What's the matter with you?*Is this how you turned out? A trembling finocchio*that ah cries like a woman?( (then, imitating Johnny,)
What can I do?! What can I do?!
(then)
What is that nonsense? Ridiculous.*Get a fecking grip.

THE GOODFATHER TURNS TO LEATHERTRUMPET, HIS CONSIGLIERE, WHO HAS BEEN SILENTLY OBSERVING.

DON KIRKLEONE
Get me 2,000 horses heads – I'm gonna make them all an offer they can't refuse.

[_Tom_]

The man's got a point.

DV9UWpT70is

[the truth]

4.1 million now

[Johnnyuk123]

Next time the UK has the referendum the choices ought to be...

1. I want Britain to remain a member of the European Union
2. I need more time (and another referendum) to be educated on how foolish it would be to leave the EU

Don't forget number 3.

3: If the result does not go my way we keep on having a vote until it does.

[joeysteele]

4.1 million now

Really the truth, has it got that high,it was adjusted a few days ago by just over 100,000 after investigation I understand,
Has it now again actually risen to that level now.
That is quite a figure.

[the truth]

yep 4.1 million, not sure how corrupt this is , shame really. if it had been 100% legitimate and unspolit a number like this could have created some waves

[arista]

Numbers have of Frauds in them / Outside the UK


Not valid

[Johnnyuk123]

Yes democracy at it's best.... yes lets keep voting until the result comes in to remain. Then shut up shop to stop the leavers wanting a re vote to vote leave again.

[joeysteele]

Numbers have of Frauds in them / Outside the UK


Not valid

They have dealt with that arista and removed names from it already I understand.
This that is left, is now the legitimate figure,I never signed it, no way do I want another referendum after the insulting last vile one.

I hadn't realised it was to the 4 million mark however.

If however it was still getting fraudulent names on it, it would be removed, not allowed to continue.

[arista]

They have dealt with that arista and removed names from it already I understand.
This that is left, is now the legitimate figure,I never signed it, no way do I want another referendum after the insulting last vile one.

I hadn't realised it was to the 4 million mark however.

If however it was still getting fraudulent names on it, it would be removed, not allowed to continue.



Yes the First batch


No they will never remove it

But more to be auto and human checked

[microscope]

The current population of the United Kingdom is 65,113,183 as of Sunday, July 3, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates. The estimated cost of conducting the EU referendum has been put at £142.4million. And all of a sudden the remain-camp are not happy that 48% of the 30+ million that voted didn't get what they wanted, well that's tough luck I'm afraid. Blame the 35million who didn't vote then as well as the 15+million who did vote for leave, but it's all hindsight now and it's better to look forward than going backwards and even if there was a second referendum, there is no guarantees that the remain-camp would win and the £142.4million that was spent organizing the whole thing you would never get back and you would have to spend all that money again and all the money that has been wiped off the financial markets, you would never get back either, so it's all rather pointless.

[the truth]

welsh poll shows a new referendum would see the result over turned http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/wales-would-vote-53-47-11566937

[kirklancaster]

welsh poll shows a new referendum would see the result over turned http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/wales-would-vote-53-47-11566937

Who cares? Leave won, Remain lost - they should all get over it. It's time to move on and actually pour a united energy into actually making this country strong again.

[the truth]

Who cares? Leave won, Remain lost - they should all get over it. It's time to move on and actually pour a united energy into actually making this country strong again.

hmmm i dont know , there is some momentum for delaying article 50....you really cant see a second referendum on a redraft, before we leave for good and cut all our ties?

[kirklancaster]

hmmm i dont know , there is some momentum for delaying article 50....you really cant see a second referendum on a redraft, before we leave for good and cut all our ties?

No. What is ocurring now in the UK AND against the UK from abroad, is merely the second wave of the same 'scare tactics' in a well orchestrated campaign by the pro-EU 'Establishment' which seeks to preserve the 'status quo' for their own corrupt reasons.

Having JUST failed to win the Referendum with their pre-Referendum scare mongering propaganda, they are now relentlessly working to plant seeds of doubt in that percentage of 'Leave' voters who voted from superficial whim rather than deep commitment following extensive research, and FORCE another Referendum - and their tactics are working.

Even this latest B.S from the government about 'Deporting' those long time UK resident immigrants is fake and designed to create anxiety and panic in the gullible - especially about the fate of ex-pats.

Yet this B.S. comes 'close on the heels' of Cameron and his cronies ASSURING us that long term UK immigrants and UK ex-pats living abroad in EU countries will be UNAFFECTED.

I don't know about you Truth, but I am old enough to have seen GENUINE crashes and recessions - I even lost most of what I had worked all my life for in the last one - and no matter HOW SEVERE these genuine crashes and recessions were -- WE ALWAYS, not only survived them -- we PROSPERED and PROGRESSED and PROSPERED.

All this post-Brexit B.S. is no different.

1961 recession 0.5 years - 0.2% Time lag from the 'Rolling Adjustment' recession in America and high bank rate. Interest rates were hiked from 5.0% to 7.0% in July 1961, reducing to 6.5% in October 1961 and then to 6.0% from

Mid-1970s recessions 1973/1974 - 0.75 years -0.4%
Oil crisis, stagflation, the decline of traditional British industries, inefficient production caused by excessive union wage demands. The economy surpassed its pre-recession peak by 1976 fourteen quarters after its beginning.
There were two single-quarterly setbacks during the recovery (aside from the double-dip) in 1974 Q4 and 1976 Q2.
Average inflation was 9.2% in 1973, 16.0% in 1974, 24.2% in 1975 and 16.5% in 1976.[15]

Interest rates fluctuated wildly during the recession with a low of 9.0% in March 1976 and a high of 15.0% in October 1976.

1980s recession -1.25 years
Deflationary government policies including spending cuts, pursuance of monetarism to reduce inflation, switch from a manufacturing economy to a services economy. Company earnings decline 35%.
Unemployment rises from 5.3% of the working population in August 1979 to 11.9% in 1984
Took thirteen quarters for GDP to recover to its pre-recession peak at the end of 1979.
Annual inflation was 18.0% in 1980, 11.9% in 1981, 8.6% in 1982 and 4.6% in 1983.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.

1990s recession - 1.25 years - 1.1%
US savings and loan crisis, high bank rate in response to rising inflation caused by the Lawson Boom and to maintain British membership of the Exchange Rate Mechanism. Company earnings decline 25%.
Peak budget deficit ~8% of GDP.
Unemployment rises from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993
Took eleven quarters for GDP to recover to its pre-recession peak in the Spring of 1990.
Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993.
Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession, though interest rates were hiked twice during Black Wednesday.

2008 Great Recession. 1.25 years
Late 2000s financial crisis, rising global commodity prices, subprime mortgage crisis infiltrating the British banking sector, significant credit crunch.

The recession lasted for five quarters and was the deepest UK recession since the war.
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008.
It affected many sectors including banks and investment firms, with many well known and established businesses having to fold.
The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.
There was much speculation of a 'double dip' recession during the 2010s, but this proved not to be the case. However, the 2010s saw four separate periods of Quarter on Quarter fall in growth: 2010 Q4 (-0.4); 2011 Q4 (-0.1); 2012 Q2 (-0.5); and 2012 Q4 (-0.2).

We - THE BRITISH - SURVIVED AND OVERCAME and PROSPERED.

'There IS NOTHING to fear but FEAR itself'

[arista]

the truth .


No 2nd Chance
Yes Dave.

[arista]

welsh poll shows a new referendum would see the result over turned http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/wales-would-vote-53-47-11566937


Wales Voted Out

Respect their Right

[joeysteele]

hmmm i dont know , there is some momentum for delaying article 50....you really cant see a second referendum on a redraft, before we leave for good and cut all our ties?

I would never say never as to that 'the truth', with pressure of big business, polling, although why anyone takes notice of that now is beyond me.

However if as you have pointed out it can be shown that the vote could have changed so quickly, before anything gets started or done, if there is evidence a different result could be got,who knows.

There are still around 100 Conservative MPs not in favour of leaving at all,virtually no other party wants to leave except the DUP and a handful of Labour MPs.
With legal challenges going on and parliament likely set to have to start this process when it does via an MPs debate and vote,it may be that since the last vote was misleading on both sides.
A 'clear the air' new vote could be suggested and taken.

I personally hope not, do I want to go through all I did last time, not really.

However it is not me that can twist govts arms and I have a feeling a lot of that will be going on.
Even moreso since you now point out Wales regrets their vote and would now vote differently too.

[Cherie]

I just want to get on with it now, no turning back