'In' or 'Out' - The TRUTH thread.

[kirklancaster]

HERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THINK ABOUT:

1) Most MEPS are taking up to £200,000 00 per year from their 'jobs' on the Brussel's 'GRAVY TRAIN'.

2) That INCLUDES Farage should he so wish.

3) What type of DISHONEST man fights tooth and nail for 17 years to see his country exit the corrupt mess of an EU, and VOTE himself out of a £200K pa Job?

4) Farage has no ulterior motive for fighting so long for Brexit.

5) Any fools accusing Farage of wanting the UK out because he hates Immigrants, OVERLOOK the fact, that he could have NOT fought for Brexit for 17 years, KEPT HIS BIG FAT SALARY from the EU GRAVY TRAIN, and STILL been PUBLICLY AND RADICALLY ANTI-IMMIGRATION.

6. Another point overlooked by his detractors - HOW DOES FARAGE GIVING UP HIS CUSHY MEP JOB FOR THE PRIME REASON OF STOPPING IMMIGRATION VIA BREXIT, MAKE ANY SENSE IF HE KNEW THAT BREXIT WOULD NOT STOP IMMIGRATION - AS SOME OF YOU MAINTAIN HE KNEW?

No, Farage is THE most honest political figure in the UK.

Now:

Now let us take a look at Dave Cameron, to see if HIS excruciatingly dishonest, all out assault to KEEP us in the EU, could have had any ulterior motives:

OOPS:

SAMANTHA CAMERON'S FATHER RAKES IN MILLIONS IN EU SUBSIDIES

DAVID Cameron's aristocrat father-in-law is raking in millions of pounds in taxpayer-funded EU farming subsidies, an investigation by Express.co.uk can reveal.

Sir Reginald Adrian Berkeley Sheffield, 8th Baronet, receives eye-watering sums of money from Brussels to help fund the upkeep of his sprawling Lincolnshire estate.

The aristocrat, who is the father of Samantha Cameron, is just one of a number of wealthy landowners who get huge pots of cash paid out by the EU's controversial Common Agricultural Policy (CAP).

Today an investigation by this website exposes how the 58 billion Euro (£46BN) scheme, which was set up to help impoverished farmers, is now being exploited by Britain's landed elite to bankroll their huge inherited estates.

Amazingly the taxpayer-funded programme is handing over hundreds of millions of pounds of our cash to rich aristocrats, fox hunting associations and local councils.

The revelation Sir Reginald is such a large recipient will prove hugely embarrassing for Mr Cameron, who has been accused of burying a huge "conflict of interest" over his leadership role in the campaign to keep Britain in the EU.

It backs up the assertion put forward in a speech by Iain Duncan Smith this week that Brussels project has become a "force for social injustice" that only benefits the rich.

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) figures hidden from the public but seen by Express.co.uk reveal the PM's father-in-law has received at least £614,577.26 in CAP payments since 2008.

Official figures for the scheme, which has been running in its current format since 1999, do not go back to beyond that, but independent data compiled from Freedom of Information requests by an online watchdog indicate Sir Reginald's companies may have received as much as £2.7million in the last 15 years.

In 2014 alone - the last year for which official figures are available - the Baronet's farming operations received an astonishing £262,442.38 from Brussels.

Of that, £209,965.24 was channeled through Normanby Estate Farms, the company responsible for managing his sprawling 3,000 acre ancestral estate outside Scunthorpe.

A further £38,846.10 was handed over to Normanby Farms Ltd, and £13,631.04 went to the family's overarching parent company, Normanby Estate Holdings Ltd.

Of the total, an overwhelming £232,515.34 was dished out under the 'single area payment scheme' - meaning it was paid to Sir Reginald purely on the basis of how much land he owns.

The rest of the cash was disbursed to help fund various environmentally friendly schemes the aristocrat, who is thought to be worth £20m, has agreed to carry out on his land.
One well-placed source told Express.co.uk: "In my opinion David Cameron has a massive conflict of interest."

Sir Reginald - an Old Etonian who also earns almost £350,000 a year by hosting wind turbines on his land - is not the only member of the landed classes who is raking in huge sums of money from Brussels.

William Pleydell-Bouverie, the 9th Earl of Radnor, was handed £453,618.76 in 2014 to pay for the upkeep of the ancestral seat Longford Castle, near Salisbury in Wiltshire.

The moated estate, which boasts a multi-million pound art collection featuring paintings by a number of classical masters, is administered by a private company called Longford Farms Limited of which the Earl is a director.

One of his principal tenants is Minette Batters, the Deputy President of the National Farmers Union (NFU), who recently broke the organisation's tradition of being politically impartial by coming out strongly in support of Brussels, sparking resignations.

The source said: "I'm sure Minette Batters has been leant on to push the NFU to push the case for staying in the EU."

Elsewhere Ralph George Algernon Percy, 12th Duke of Northumberland, received £149,547.62 through his Northumberland Estates company which manages the family seat at Alnwick Castle, in Northumberland, where Harry Potter was filmed.

The Duke, who owns 130,000 acres of land across the north West, Scotland, Surrey, London and Tyneside, also received £208,587.76 for his holdings south of Edinburgh, whilst £34,203.37 went to companies registered at the Albury Estate, near Guildford, Surrey, which is owned by the Percy family.

And Arthur Charles Valerian Wellesley, the 9th Duke of Wellington, owns the Stratfield Saye Estates Management Company Limited, which received a more modest £10,560.00.

The source, who is well-placed within the farming community, said many members of Britain's elite are now using taxpayer-funded EU cash to bankroll the further expansion of their estates.

They said: "A very small fraction of the wealthiest of the population are 'cleaning up' on the bulk of all the money paid by the EU.

"These very, very wealthy people are getting staggering amounts of money to help them keep castles and art collections and thousands of acres of land.

"Some of these people are extremely influential and it is all inherited - they've done nothing for it."

They added: "These subsidies were designed a long, long time ago to help the small farmers of southern Europe with a dozen sheep on a hillside, but now remarkably you have the wealthiest in the land getting all the agricultural subsidies.

"This all has to be tackled because there's a great deal of unfairness, that the haves are being given huge amounts of money for doing absolutely nothing.

"This is an issue so shrouded in mystery and they aren't going to be very happy at all when all this comes out."

AND - AS WITH ALL THINGS CONCERNING THE 'REMAIN' CAMP - HERE'S A LOVELY TYPICAL PIECE OF CONVOLUTED 'DOUBLE SPEAK':

A spokeswoman for the NFU said CAP payments "did play a part" in its decision to back Brussels, but insisted considerations such as availability of labour and trade with the rest of Europe were also major factors.

She said the decision was not just taken by Mrs Batters but was signed off by 90 members of the NFU Council,*** which represents farmers big and small across the UK, adding that the organisation wanted to "take a stance and show leadership" in the EU debate.

The NFU is not actively campaigning on behalf of the EU, and is not advising its members on how to vote.

KIRK LOVES THAT CONFUSING EU-STYLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 'NFU COUNCIL' AND NFU :laugh: AND HOW ABOUT:

"the organisation wanted to "take a stance and show leadership" in the EU debate"

BUT - BUT - WAIT FOR IT:

"The NFU is not actively campaigning on behalf of the EU, and is not advising its members on how to vote.".

"Take a stance and show leadership, but is not actively campaigning on behalf of the EU and not advising its members how to vote"Show - That's PRIME B.S. HOWEVER YOU LOOK AT IT.

PREDICTABLY; "Normanby Estate Farms did not return our calls. A spokesman for the Prime Minister declined to comment."


Remember my; 'Sheriff of Nottingham Tax'? - The ROBBING of the POOR to pay to the RICH? Well this is just that.

If I asked all of you to each find 10,000 ordinary, TAX PAYING FAMILIES who were STRUGGLING, and to take say, £30 per week from them, pool it, then send ALL the £300,000 to Sir Reginald Adrian Berkeley Sheffield, 8th Baronet, who earns over £500,000 per year and is worth at least £20 million pounds - you would tell me to FECK OFF.

But this is EXACTLY for the best part of 4 decades while we have been in the EU.

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN: IT IS THE BIGGEST 'MONEY LAUNDERING SCAM' EVER CREATED AND DAMAGES THE POOR AND VULNERABLE.

Every Billion pounds that we pay the EU, the EU takes its MASSIVE SHARE then pays GRANTS and SUBSIDIES of WHAT IS LEFT of our OWN MONEY, but SUCH is the TOTALLY BRILLIANTLY CONCEIVED SCAM, the BULK of that money NEVER REACHES those WHOSE TAX MONEY PAID IT - IT IS LEGALLY DIVERTED TO THE 10% CORPORATE ELITE who ARE ALREADY WEALTHY beyond DECENCY.

AS I SAID:

"From EACH regardless of his NEED, to EACH according to his GREED"

THIS IS WHY CAMERON AND HIS ELITIST CRONIES AND THE EU OVERLORDS ARE SO DESPERATE TO KEEP BRITAIN IN THE EU.

MORE TO FOLLOW.

[Liberty4eva]

Nigel Farage seems like a very honest and sincere man. I saw an interview with him last night and he is concerned that the issues raised during the Brexit campaign are being sidelined. He clearly wants to lose his job as quickly as possible. You guys should make him PM.

[Kizzy]

And the poorest boroughs, what about their EU funding? The MP for Middlesborough yesterday was saying how the loss of EU funding to his town will be catastrophic...what do we say to them?

[Liberty4eva]

And the poorest boroughs, what about their EU funding? The MP for Middlesborough yesterday was saying how the loss of EU funding to his town will be catastrophic...what do we say to them?

Kizzy, if this town gets money from the EU, then where does the EU get that money? Does it fall from the sky and land in the EU parliament or something?
:think:

[reece(:]

Farage is a joke, CAPITALISED words won't change that

[letmein]

Farage never in a million years though it would pass thus never saw an end to his gravy train.

[kirklancaster]

And the poorest boroughs, what about their EU funding? The MP for Middlesborough yesterday was saying how the loss of EU funding to his town will be catastrophic...what do we say to them?

Pay me HALF A TRILLION POUNDS and I WILL FUND THEM.

It is our OWN money, and instead of we Brits being in a state of denial, or whinging and whining - it is time to ACCEPT the MANY ugly TRUTHS about the EU, and STAY OUT, so we the people, can ORGANISE ourselves - regardless of outdated Red or Blue political persuasions - and FORCE OUR SO_CALLED GOVERNMENT TO SAVE BILLIONS OF POUNDS OF OUR MONEY FROM GOING INTO THEIRS AND THEIR CRONIES AND THE EU OVERLORD'S PRIVATE POCKETS, before a TINY FRACTION OF WHAT IS LEFT IS THROWN 'CRUMB-LIKE' BACK TO THE UK TO APPEASE THE PEASANTS.

I WILL HELP ORGANISE IT IF NEED BE.

[kirklancaster]

Farage never in a million years though it would pass thus never saw an end to his gravy train.

:laugh: IT WAS FARAGE WHO EXPOSED THE GRAVY TRAIN. :shrug:

[kirklancaster]

Farage is a joke, CAPITALISED words won't change that

No - you are right, and no matter how many times you say he is a joke does not make him one.

And THE STYLE I choose to type in has nothing to do with the issue, unless you want to get personal?

[Kizzy]

Kizzy, if this town gets money from the EU, then where does the EU get that money? Does it fall from the sky and land in the EU parliament or something?
:think:

From the EU member states, my question is where will Middlesboro get it's funding from now?

[Johnnyuk123]

Nigel is well on his way to a Knighthood and rightly so. :thumbs:

[Liberty4eva]

From the EU member states, my question is where will Middlesboro get it's funding from now?

Couldn't the UK money that they send to the EU just be sent to this town? I am not sure you fully understand that you will have more money to do what you want with now.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

No, Farage is THE most honest political figure in the UK.

For a thread entitled "the TRUTH", this sounds awfully like an opinion, not a fact :suspect:

[Johnnyuk123]

For a thread entitled "the TRUTH", this sounds awfully like an opinion, not a fact :suspect:

Kirk does not lie. :nono:

[kirklancaster]

From the EU member states, my question is where will Middlesboro get it's funding from now?

I just answered you above,and Liberty4eva reiterated - just as with the NHS and other services, it is UP TO US to FORCE OUR SERVANTS, THE GOVERNMENT, to take over the EU subsidies. After discarding those to their ELITIST cronies of course.

I am being deadly serious - we have had the Governments we have deserved, and it is time that we all took CONTROL of what ALL these Corrupt bastards do with the power and the money once we have given it to them.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

HIS excruciatingly dishonest,

Again, this is just an opinion, without evidence that he lied at any point.

[kirklancaster]

For a thread entitled "the TRUTH", this sounds awfully like an opinion, not a fact :suspect:

Do you require help pointing you to ALL the facts? Why don't you debunk them then?

[kirklancaster]

Again, this is just an opinion, without evidence that he lied at any point.

Stick with this thread and you will have ALL the FACTS that he DEILIBERATELY LIED that any reasonable person could wish for. I am only just beginning.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Do you require help pointing you to ALL the facts? Why don't you debunk them then?

It's the job of the person making the claim to provide evidence. There is no way of knowing or even measuring who the most honest political figure in the UK is, therefore it is simply an opinion, and not the "TRUTH".

I'm happy to concede David Cameron is dishonest if ypu can show me evidence of a lie he has told.

[MB.]

I'm not sure why you're trying to persuade people to your case considering the vote was held nearly a week ago and the disastrous economic effects and mass-public racism orgy to which it led can be seen as clear as day

[Kizzy]

I just answered you above,and Liberty4eva reiterated - just as with the NHS and other services, it is UP TO US to FORCE OUR SERVANTS, THE GOVERNMENT, to take over the EU subsidies. After discarding those to their ELITIST cronies of course.

I am being deadly serious - we have had the Governments we have deserved, and it is time that we all took CONTROL of what ALL these Corrupt bastards do with the power and the money once we have given it to them.

Of the £34 million that farage stated we send to the EU how much will be spent on Middlesboro then given that george osborne has stated we are entering a new phase of austerity?

My guess is none as they all lied.

[kirklancaster]

Kirk does not lie. :nono:

Thank you Johnny - I am here to be shot down if I do lie, or debunked with counter facts.

I am so sick of all the mistruths about the EU, that I decided to do this thread, and I was hoping to get away from being sniped or adverse comments being made which have nothing to do with the issues being posted.

This 'Referendum' fracas is beyond political persuasions or political figure fan bases - it will create a huge schism in Great Britain if it is not TRUTHFULLY discussed and some sort of resolution reached.

[Liberty4eva]

One thing I don't see from any of the pro-EUers is disgust with the gravy-train in Brussels. Are there any Remainers who have the guts to at least admit how disgusting the whole system is?

[Johnnyuk123]

It's the job of the person making the claim to provide evidence. There is no way of knowing or even measuring who the most honest political figure in the UK is, therefore it is simply an opinion, and not the "TRUTH".

I'm happy to concede David Cameron is dishonest if ypu can show me evidence of a lie he has told.

He said he would not step down as MP. There you go.

[Toy Soldier]

Looking forward to being £30 a week better off then!

...except that I, you, and everyone else knows that that is not going to happen. Not ONE of these "hard working" individuals you talk about is going to be financially better off in any real way for being out of the EU. Do you think the govt. will cut any of the tax that currently goes out to the EU? Not a chance. Will any of the towns or areas that receive EU help currently, have that help mirrored by London once we are out? Highly unlikely.

So yeah. The people being "ripped off" by the EU right now in your example are NOT going to be any better off now that we're out. It's bull****. At the same time, the overall cost of removing ourselves from the EU is ---DEFINITELY--- going to hurt the vulnerable most. You know it.

So what is the point? No real person's real life is going to be any better in any real way for any of this. Utter mess.

[kirklancaster]

Of the £34 million that farage stated we send to the EU how much will be spent on Middlesboro then given that george osborne has stated we are entering a new phase of austerity?

My guess is none as they all lied.

I cannot answer that Kizzy - it needs many calculations to be carried out - but I do agree that THEY ARE ALL LIARS, but it is up to us to END this style of non-Government NOW.

The ENTIRE 'AUSTERITY' measures have been a dupe - there is ENOUGH money collected from our over-taxed hard-pressed people, it just NEEDS US TO ENSURE THAT IT IS SPENT PROPERLY ON WHAT IT SHOULD BE - US.

[Johnnyuk123]

Thank you Johnny - I am here to be shot down if I do lie, or debunked with counter facts.

I am so sick of all the mistruths about the EU, that I decided to do this thread, and I was hoping to get away from being sniped or adverse comments being made which have nothing to do with the issues being posted.

This 'Referendum' fracas is beyond political persuasions or political figure fan bases - it will create a huge schism in Great Britain if it is not TRUTHFULLY discussed and some sort of resolution reached.

Your welcome Kirk :wavey:
As per usual some are only happy when complaining. We cannot help those who blame everything on everyone but themselves. Some people are simply happy to remain bitter. Leave them to it i say.

[smudgie]

From the EU member states, my question is where will Middlesboro get it's funding from now?

Depends on what the funding was for in the first place.
If it is to do with the extra funding for asylum seekers then George will be dipping into his purse, he was on about it in his speech this morning.

[kirklancaster]

Looking forward to being £30 a week better off then!

...except that I, you, and everyone else knows that that is not going to happen. Not ONE of these "hard working" individuals you talk about is going to be financially better off in any real way for being out of the EU. Do you think the govt. will cut any of the tax that currently goes out to the EU? Not a chance. Will any of the towns or areas that receive EU help currently, have that help mirrored by London once we are out? Highly unlikely.

So yeah. The people being "ripped off" by the EU right now in your example are NOT going to be any better off now that we're out. It's bull****. At the same time, the overall cost of removing ourselves from the EU is ---DEFINITELY--- going to hurt the vulnerable most. You know it.

So what is the point? No real person's real life is going to be any better in any real way for any of this. Utter mess.

So - are you agreeing that my points about the Sheriff of Nottingham tax and the EU Gravy Train and Corruption are correct or not?

[Toy Soldier]

One thing I don't see from any of the pro-EUers is disgust with the gravy-train in Brussels. Are there any Remainers who have the guts to at least admit how disgusting the whole system is?

Of course it's disgusting, it's a hive of politics. The whole damn world is slick with filth and utterly foul to the core. Do you imagine people see it as a gleaming beacon of light and justice? No such thing exists. The ONLY thing that matters is ensuring that normal people can live good individual lives. Brexit is going to be economically disastrous for this country and normal people are going to suffer. Is that worth some ideological crusade to "stick it to the bureaocrats"? When they are all so personally rich that they don't actually give a **** anyway? I mean really. People "laughing" and "jeering" at "poor old David Cameron" having to step down as PM. Embarrassment? Sure. Now the poor sod has to go off and live his life however he wants, wherever he wants, because he is a millionaire. Boo hoo! You can't "stick it to them". It is a game to them. It doesn't really matter on ANY individual level to them. They will not personally suffer, beyond their egos. Normal people will.

I cannot answer that Kizzy - it needs many calculations to be carried out - but I do agree that THEY ARE ALL LIARS, but it is up to us to END this style of non-Government NOW.

The ENTIRE 'AUSTERITY' measures have been a dupe - there is ENOUGH money collected from our over-taxed hard-pressed people, it just NEEDS US TO ENSURE THAT IT IS SPENT PROPERLY ON WHAT IT SHOULD BE - US.

But we WON'T Kirk. This is exactly what terrifies me; that all the hopes and reassurances of those who voted for this, and can see it all coming good, hinge on us now being out and getting some sort of "better, fairer, for the people" government into place. It's pie in the sky idealism! It WON'T ****ing happen! You're stripping away a massive safety net not on the basis that we can actually do OK --as we are right now-- out of Europe, but that there will also be some sort of huge political revolution that sees us vote normal, caring, benevolent people into Westminster??? An absolutely massive and unrealistic caveat??

We will continue to be ****ed in the arse by these same people, from these same families and same schools, who care nothing for the wellbeing of the individual.

We WON'T end this style of government.

We WON'T be able to ensure that the money is spent properly.

We WILL be at the mercy of rampant capitalists who will strip us for every penny and then work us yet harder.

[Toy Soldier]

So - are you agreeing that my points about the Sheriff of Nottingham tax and the EU Gravy Train and Corruption are correct or not?

Just the same as above Kirk. It may well be entirely true but if you think we're going to see a penny back of that money, or it being spent in any way more constructively, now that we're out of the EU you are simply dreaming.

Do you think they are going to cut tax? Or that we're going to see our crumbling towns rejuvinated by the money being better spent? Or that it will go to he NHS, or education, or our other public services? Is that something you truly, in your heart of hearts, see on the horizon?

...will you even bother to look into what's going to happen to that money now, so long as it isn't going to the "EU gravy train"? Because I know it won't be back in our pockets. I 100% know it as certainly as you know any of your own "facts". I think you know it, too, I just frankly think you'd be happier to see the money burnt than sent to Europe.

[Tom4784]

truth
truːθ/Submit
noun
the quality or state of being true.
"he had to accept the truth of her accusation"
synonyms: veracity, truthfulness, verity, sincerity, candour, honesty, genuineness; More
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
noun: the truth
"tell me the truth"
synonyms: the fact of the matter, what actually/really happened, the case, so; More
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.
plural noun: truths
"the emergence of scientific truths"

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"that, in my opinion, is right"
synonyms: belief, judgement, thought(s), school of thought, thinking, way of thinking, mind, point of view, view, viewpoint, outlook, angle, slant, side, attitude, stance, perspective, position, standpoint; More
2.
a statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.
"if in doubt, get a second opinion"

The UK's done goofed and long winded opinion pieces aren't going to change that we're in the ****. Accepting the situation and dealing with it is what's important now. Optimism, vague hope and unrealistic expectations might have worked for the Brexit campaign but that's over now. Now's the time to face reality.

[kirklancaster]

Of course it's disgusting, it's a hive of politics. The whole damn world is slick with filth and utterly foul to the core. Do you imagine people see it as a gleaming beacon of light and justice? No such thing exists. The ONLY thing that matters is ensuring that normal people can live good individual lives. Brexit is going to be economically disastrous for this country and normal people are going to suffer. Is that worth some ideological crusade to "stick it to the bureaocrats"? When they are all so personally rich that they don't actually give a **** anyway? I mean really. People "laughing" and "jeering" at "poor old David Cameron" having to step down as PM. Embarrassment? Sure. Now the poor sod has to go off and live his life however he wants, wherever he wants, because he is a millionaire. Boo hoo! You can't "stick it to them". It is a game to them. It doesn't really matter or ANY individual level to them. They will not personally suffer, beyond their egos. Normal people will.



But we WON'T Kirk. This is exactly what terrifies me; that all the hopes and reassurances of those who voted for this, and can see it all coming good, hinge on us now being out and getting some sort of "better, fairer, for the people" government into place. It's pie in the sky idealism! It WON'T ****ing happen! You're stripping away a massive safety net not on the basis that we can actually do OK as we are out of Europe, but that there will also be some sort of huge political revolution that sees us vote normal, caring, benevolent people into Westminster??? An absolutely massive and unrealistic caveat??

We will continue to be ****ed in the arse by these same people, from these same families and same schools, who care nothing for the wellbeing of the individual.

We WON'T end this style of government.

We WON'T be able to ensure that the money is spent properly.

We WILL be at the mercy of rampant capitalists who will strip us for every penny and then work us yet harder.

What 'Safety Net' - do you mean the EU?

It is a failed and failing festering nest of corruption. OUR money has disproprtionately kept it afloat and on EVERY single FACT which the Remain camp relied on to support their claim that the EU was 'beneficial to us' was a huge PROVABLE lie - which is the idea behind this thread T.S.

I sincerely hope to prove as much on this thread as time allows.

As to your contention that we cannot enforce a government which is open and honest and 'for the peope' - WE CAN T.S.

There are probably more brains on this forum than among some of our MP's - who could not secure jobs as dustbin men if it were not for the meal ticket which is Westminster - and if we all resoved to campaign over the net or whatever, that will be picked up on, believe me, and something revolutionary COULD happen.

It will NOT happen if we are defeatist and overwhelmed.

[kirklancaster]

The UK's done goofed and long winded opinion pieces aren't going to change that we're in the ****. Accepting the situation and dealing with it is what's important now. Optimism, vague hope and unrealistic expectations might have worked for the Brexit campaign but that's over now. Now's the time to face reality.

Do you feel lie commenting on my expose?

[Tom4784]

Do you feel lie commenting on my expose?

The only thing you exposed is that you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. It's just a really weird campaign post that's one week too late. It's pointless.

Like I said before, the campaign is over and we're in for a ****storm. Focus on that instead of campaigning for something that has been and gone.

[Kizzy]

I cannot answer that Kizzy - it needs many calculations to be carried out - but I do agree that THEY ARE ALL LIARS, but it is up to us to END this style of non-Government NOW.

The ENTIRE 'AUSTERITY' measures have been a dupe - there is ENOUGH money collected from our over-taxed hard-pressed people, it just NEEDS US TO ENSURE THAT IT IS SPENT PROPERLY ON WHAT IT SHOULD BE - US.

Guess who will make it fairer?....Corbyn.

Not conservatives, not blairites, not UKIP ....they have all proved they have no clue how to proceed other than telling us that the poor will get considerably poorer, how nobody guessed that is beyond me mind you, as none of those parties would know the truth if it kneed them in the nads!

The ONLY man with a plan is Corbyn!

[kirklancaster]

Guess who will make it fairer?....Corbyn.

Not conservatives, not blairites, not UKIP ....they have all proved they have no clue how to proceed other than telling us that the poor will get considerably poorer, how nobody guessed that is beyond me mind you, as none of those parties would know the truth if it kneed them in the nads!

The ONLY man with a plan is Corbyn!

I actually believe that it is time to discard the outdated 'Right Wing' Left Wing' 'in my lady's chamber' politics - the world has changed and is ever more rapidly changing.

I believe that we need a new system - a Government drawn of individuals from all parties.

Farage and Corbyn would have their place in such a Government, but a 'coalition' of THE best politicians could make THE difference.

I am pig-sick of the same tired tripe and the BS which spews forth from ALL their mouths come a time when they want something from us - extra to the power and privilege and wealth which we already give them.

[Kizzy]

I actually believe that it is time to discard the outdated 'Right Wing' Left Wing' 'in my lady's chamber' politics - the world has changed and is ever more rapidly changing.

I believe that we need a new system - a Government drawn of individuals from all parties.

Farage and Corbyn would have their place in such a Government, but a 'coalition' of THE best politicians could make THE difference.

I am pig-sick of the same tired tripe and the BS which spews forth from ALL their mouths come a time when they want something from us - extra to the power and privilege and wealth which we already give them.

So you are pro revolution now? * rings Russell Brand* :hehe:

[kirklancaster]

The only thing you exposed is that you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. It's just a really weird campaign post that's one week too late. It's pointless.

Like I said before, the campaign is over and we're in for a ****storm. Focus on that instead of campaigning for something that has been and gone.

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

[Toy Soldier]

As to your contention that we cannot enforce a government which is open and honest and 'for the peope' - WE CAN T.S.

There are probably more brains on this forum than among some of our MP's - who could not secure jobs as dustbin men if it were not for the meal ticket which is Westminster - and if we all resoved to campaign over the net or whatever, that will be picked up on, believe me, and something revolutionary COULD happen.

It will NOT happen if we are defeatist and overwhelmed.

I didn't say we can't, I said we probably won't. Something revolutionary could happen, but it probably won't.

Is that being defeatist? Probably, but it's also realistic and firmly based on literally ALL of the evidence... there is no indication that we will change this. I don't have faith in the public. I honest-to-my-socks believe that 75% of the public is unintelligent, pig-ignorant and easily lead and will continue to vote for whatever it is The Sun happens to be telling them to vote for that week. There have been three major votes here in the last year - that is exactly what has happened in every single one of them.

I know that's not a popular opinion and people get butt-hurt over it, "U can't tell dat peoples are teh stoopid dat is rong!" and Ammi will tell me off and stuff, but god damn it they just straight up are. Most people. Stupid. You know it.

Sigh.

It's not even that I can't appreciate the challenge or the sense of adventure here Kirk. I said in another thread, when I was a student in my early 20's I would actually have been all for this. Genuinely all for it. I know that the EU is an elitist shambles and that's the sort of thing I hate with a passion. I just also know that UK domestic politics is no different. Unencumbered by responsibility I'd be all for fighting that and hoping that it could be changed, even if the chance is small, I'd say "**** it let's give it a damned good shot".

I don't have that luxury now. And my gut feeling is that we have damaged the country, irreparably. We won't get the sort of trade deals we would like, we won't have much of a seat at the world table for long, and every single normal individual in this country will be worse off - and some cripplingly, disastrously so - for no real political gain. Living under scummy overlords. Doesn't matter if they're in London or Brussels or a dome on the Moon.

[Tom4784]

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

I'm not being aggressive, i'm being realistic, also someone that can't go a post without CAPITALISED and bold words shouldn't accuse anyone of being aggressive.

The campaign is over, you are beating a dead horse. Your side won and now you've got to accept the ramifications of that. The fantasy that Brexit was peddling is not going to happen and living in the recent past won't change that. Stop campaigning and accept the situation we're currently in.

[Kizzy]

Why the aggression? I am not campaigning for anything, I am attempting to nail all the BS being spouted on these threads by posting FACTS, and despite your and some others, very predictable comments to the contrary - I am posting facts.

I hate to be a pain but do you have a source for those facts?

[Kizzy]

If brexit was a viable option, where was the preparation?... why was there no system in place so we hit the ground running?

Every single leave advocate that was bleating on relentlessly was suddenly a stunned mullet, they still are.

[Walter White]

I'm not being aggressive, i'm being realistic, also someone that can't go a post without CAPITALISED and bold words shouldn't accuse anyone of being aggressive.

The campaign is over, you are beating a dead horse. Your side won and now you've got to accept the ramifications of that. The fantasy that Brexit was peddling is not going to happen and living in the recent past won't change that. Stop campaigning and accept the situation we're currently in.

kirk's a leaver? And here was I thinking he and I might bond over our mutual love of Star Trek. There's that idea down the crapper.

[_Tom_]

If brexit was a viable option, where was the preparation?... why was there no system in place so we hit the ground running?

Every single leave advocate that was bleating on relentlessly was suddenly a stunned mullet, they still are.

The reason there's no "Brexit plan" is because the Remain camp (David Cameron) BANNED the Civil Service from making one.

[Kizzy]

The reason there's no "Brexit plan" is because the Remain camp (David Cameron) BANNED the Civil Service from making one.

I find that hard to believe, any link to that 'fact' Tom?

[Liberty4eva]

Of course it's disgusting, it's a hive of politics. The whole damn world is slick with filth and utterly foul to the core. Do you imagine people see it as a gleaming beacon of light and justice? No such thing exists.

Thank you for your honesty. I suspected but now know that you are not coming from a position of optimism. The system relies upon people who believe that the system is and forever will be corrupt. The devolution of power to the local level and the enhancement of the individual's responsibility for himself or herself within that society is the way to minimize this corruption.

One of the things that baffles me is why the young people supported the EU. The young people are usually the dreamers who want to fight corruption and not tolerate (or even embrace) it. The older generation is usually the one that doesn't want to rock the boat.

The ONLY thing that matters is ensuring that normal people can live good individual lives. Brexit is going to be economically disastrous for this country and normal people are going to suffer.

If ordinary people were the ones who would suffer then why did all of the banks and big business support Remain? Do you think they did it because they were concerned that normal people would suffer?

Is that worth some ideological crusade to "stick it to the bureaocrats"?

I am of the opinion that we in the west are losing our way. The corruption gets worse all the time and it will continue to get worse until the people stand up and say "enough!" I don't want to just "stick it to the bureaocrats" I want them out of our lives now and forever. Let them get a job in the private sector and learn how to actually produce something that has value to someone else. It's time to stop thinking that you have to live with these leeches.

When they are all so personally rich that they don't actually give a **** anyway? I mean really. People "laughing" and "jeering" at "poor old David Cameron" having to step down as PM. Embarrassment? Sure. Now the poor sod has to go off and live his life however he wants, wherever he wants, because he is a millionaire. Boo hoo! You can't "stick it to them". It is a game to them.

I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. Of course it's a game to them. I don't know if you get this but a part of the game (even moreso than the money) is them controlling society. When they have all the money they could possibly ever need do you think they just go home and dive in it like Scrooge McDuck? How globalists get their kicks is not by money but power and control. Getting my country back to me is also a game I play.

It doesn't really matter on ANY individual level to them. They will not personally suffer, beyond their egos. Normal people will.

I think you should reread this sentence because I hope, upon reflection, you realize how silly this sounds. Losing the referendum is a MASSIVE deal to them.

[_Tom_]

I find that hard to believe, any link to that 'fact' Tom?

Yes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yEs-XIAAZB_A.jpg:large

BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638003)

The Civil Service was banned from helping ANY Leave-backing minister to make contingency plans for Brexit.

[Vicky.]

And the poorest boroughs, what about their EU funding? The MP for Middlesborough yesterday was saying how the loss of EU funding to his town will be catastrophic...what do we say to them?

we say to them, you ****ing idiots, you voted out?

Sorry, not here for places that voted overwhelmingly to leave now bitching on about the funding they recieved from the EU now being cut, which is what is happening. Seen the same about Cornwall too. Idiots...

[_Tom_]

More myth-busting:

http://i.imgur.com/4EJkcX0.jpg?1

[Toy Soldier]

I think you should reread this sentence because I hope, upon reflection, you realize how silly this sounds. Losing the referendum is a MASSIVE deal to them.

It's a massive deal to their egos, like I said. They will live out the rest of their lives rich, comfortable and fat. They will never know individual hardship, or suffering... they will not struggle to get by due to any dent in the economy.

I am of the opinion that the knock-on effects of this decision will make life harder for normal people. Doubly so for young families, and double it again for families like mine. Where you see hope and idealism, I see a life that looks harder and harder by the day on an individual level, and for what? To "save the world"? To "fix the west"? For who? Others? Why? They don't deserve it.

[Kizzy]

Yes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl8yEs-XIAAZB_A.jpg:large

BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638003)

The Civil Service was banned from helping ANY Leave-backing minister to make contingency plans for Brexit.

Right... then why the hell were the commons all patting him on the back as he retired from his post in the knowledge that he had proposed this carve up with no provision for both outcomes?...Seems a massive failure of duty to me.

Am I missing something?

[Kizzy]

we say to them, you ****ing idiots, you voted out?

Sorry, not here for places that voted overwhelmingly to leave now bitching on about the funding they recieved from the EU now being cut, which is what is happening. Seen the same about Cornwall too. Idiots...

They may have expected a slice of the £350 million, not forthcoming is it?

Ignorance is not bliss Middlesboro and Cornwall :hehe:

[Vicky.]

They may have expected a slice of the £350 million, not forthcoming is it?

Ignorance is not bliss Middlesboro and Cornwall :hehe:

If anyone believed anyone besides the fatcats would receive any of this 'surplus' that we 'save' they deserve to be screwed over

[Toy Soldier]

If anyone believed anyone besides the fatcats would receive any of this 'surplus' that we 'save' they deserve to be screwed over

No no Vicky, the Great British people are going to vote in the second coming of Christ and he will share the money out fairly. That's Brexit stage 2.

[Liberty4eva]

It's a massive deal to their egos, like I said. They will live out the rest of their lives rich, comfortable and fat. They will never know individual hardship, or suffering... they will not struggle to get by due to any dent in the economy.

I am of the opinion that the knock-on effects of this decision will make life harder for normal people. Doubly so for young families, and double it again for families like mine. Where you see hope and idealism, I see a life that looks harder and harder by the day on an individual level, and for what? To "save the world"? To "fix the west"? For who? Others? Why? They don't deserve it.

Has anyone ever explained to you the basic economics of how the normal working class people will be the ones to benefit most from a restriction on the free movement of labor from other countries? Their market power is their ability to sell their unskilled labor and when someone from Poland is willing to do the same work for half the wage then their market power will diminish because of unmitigated immigration.

[Toy Soldier]

Has anyone ever explained to you the basic economics of how the normal working class people will be the ones to benefit most from a restriction on the free movement of labor from other countries? Their market power is their ability to sell their unskilled labor and when someone from Poland is willing to do the same work for half the wage then their market power will diminish because of unmitigated immigration.

Meaningless when the economy contracts and there's less to go around in the first place.

[Kizzy]

If anyone believed anyone besides the fatcats would receive any of this 'surplus' that we 'save' they deserve to be screwed over

Yep you know that, and I know that but you tell steve down the chippy that :laugh:

[Liberty4eva]

Meaningless when the economy contracts and there's less to go around in the first place.

It will contract for a few weeks. Boohoo. The whole world is waiting for the return of Great Britain and I think it will return. Well, at least you didn't disagree with my economic point.

[Toy Soldier]

It will contract for a few weeks. Boohoo. The whole world is waiting for the return of Great Britain and I think it will return. Well, at least you didn't disagree with my economic point.
Again, as I've said many times throughout these threads, I hope you're right but time will tell.

[arista]

From BBC2HD Newsnight (28/6/16)
some EU members are happy to pack our bags


Thats OK Fellas
we can manage our own bags

[arista]

I am with the EU feller JUNCKER
and Farage and Paul Mason (Daily politics)

NO Cat and Mose Games
Civil Divorce

Our New PM hands over Art 50
soon


We will pay a Price - sure
BUT its our Democratic RIGHT

We Legally Voted to Leave

I thank Dave Cameron for the Vote of
last week

[Ammi]

I didn't say we can't, I said we probably won't. Something revolutionary could happen, but it probably won't.

Is that being defeatist? Probably, but it's also realistic and firmly based on literally ALL of the evidence... there is no indication that we will change this. I don't have faith in the public. I honest-to-my-socks believe that 75% of the public is unintelligent, pig-ignorant and easily lead and will continue to vote for whatever it is The Sun happens to be telling them to vote for that week. There have been three major votes here in the last year - that is exactly what has happened in every single one of them.

I know that's not a popular opinion and people get butt-hurt over it, "U can't tell dat peoples are teh stoopid dat is rong!" and Ammi will tell me off and stuff, but god damn it they just straight up are. Most people. Stupid. You know it.

Sigh.

It's not even that I can't appreciate the challenge or the sense of adventure here Kirk. I said in another thread, when I was a student in my early 20's I would actually have been all for this. Genuinely all for it. I know that the EU is an elitist shambles and that's the sort of thing I hate with a passion. I just also know that UK domestic politics is no different. Unencumbered by responsibility I'd be all for fighting that and hoping that it could be changed, even if the chance is small, I'd say "**** it let's give it a damned good shot".

I don't have that luxury now. And my gut feeling is that we have damaged the country, irreparably. We won't get the sort of trade deals we would like, we won't have much of a seat at the world table for long, and every single normal individual in this country will be worse off - and some cripplingly, disastrously so - for no real political gain. Living under scummy overlords. Doesn't matter if they're in London or Brussels or a dome on the Moon.

..:laugh:...shut yer face, TS....


..anyways, I don't think this is about fact/truth or any of the such like...when we talk about Great Britain and putting the great back into it etc and such phrases...we're talking about a spirit of the people, not about economics or how financially stable/unstable etc...if we have a united spirit then we'll flourish in other ways as well...but we haven't got that/we couldn't really be any further removed form that 'great' as a country because we have a huge portion of the population in feelings of deep despondency...maybe even more than half of the population now, if many were to be regretting how they have voted in being lied to and feeling that things like the NHS were going to become great through this Brexit as well...those feelings and the cloud of depression covering a vast part of the country are not going to be dispelled...it just doesn't work that way ..the truth and fact for me is that in the coming recession, like all recessions it will become 'only the strong will survive' type thing, which in itself becomes an 'every man for himself' thing..I need to survive and me, me, me etc...that's not criticising that though because that's a human reaction, isn't it...but it's not something that is ever going to make a 'Great Britian' that is so desperately needed right now and for a very long time to come...we are not great because we are divided, we are two half countries essentially, in our spirit...

[Ammi]

...someone left the Great out in the rain, I don't think that I can take it, 'cause it took so long to bake it and we'll never have that recipe again...OH EU...:sad:...!!!!!!!!!!!!....

[Ammi]

..ok, I'll stop with the dooms and the glooms...

[Cherie]

Has anyone ever explained to you the basic economics of how the normal working class people will be the ones to benefit most from a restriction on the free movement of labor from other countries? Their market power is their ability to sell their unskilled labor and when someone from Poland is willing to do the same work for half the wage then their market power will diminish because of unmitigated immigration.


Will there be a restriction? At the moment it doesn't look like it, as the deal has not yet been done, free movement is still on the cards

[Cherie]

...someone left the Great out in the rain, I don't think that I can take it, 'cause it took so long to bake it and we'll never have that recipe again...OH EU...:sad:...!!!!!!!!!!!!....

:joker: Ammi

[arista]

...someone left the Great out in the rain, I don't think that I can take it, 'cause it took so long to bake it and we'll never have that recipe again...OH EU...:sad:...!!!!!!!!!!!!....


Fecking EU weather

[arista]

..ok, I'll stop with the dooms and the glooms...



How Nice

[arista]

Will there be a restriction? At the moment it doesn't look like it, as the deal has not yet been done, free movement is still on the cards


Depends on who the Next PM Lady is
in Sept 2016



Australia & NZ
wants to set up Trade deals
right away.


Thats good a NZ Lamb
tastes good

[Cherie]

Depends on who the Next PM Lady is
in Sept 2016



Australia & NZ
wants to set up Trade deals
right away.


Thats good a NZ Lamb
takes good



D: I'm sure British lamb tastes better

[Ammi]

..Arista, we can always rely on you thinking about your dinner while so many are thinking about their livelihoods and the impact on those...

[arista]

D: I'm sure British lamb tastes better



Yes thats also good


at AsdaWalmart
I can buy 8 Fresh Lamb British Chops
for just £7

If you Buy 2
4 packs at £4 each
I get One Pound off

[arista]

..Arista, we can always rely on you thinking about your dinner while so many are thinking about their livelihoods and the impact on those...


Yes But I Worked All Night
so I need a Dinner

Some of us
are Hard Workers

[Liberty4eva]

Will there be a restriction? At the moment it doesn't look like it, as the deal has not yet been done, free movement is still on the cards

A restriction is what I think the Out movement was supposed to be about. If the Brexiters mitigate their stated aims that would be unfortunate for the ordinary Brit. And shame on those leaders. I'm not defending it.

[Liberty4eva]

Depends on who the Next PM Lady is
in Sept 2016



Australia & NZ
wants to set up Trade deals
right away.


Thats good a NZ Lamb
tastes good

In Texas (where I am currently staying) there always is talk of seceding from the US but there has been more rumblings than usual because of Brexit (Their version is Texit). Everything they eat there is meat so if you like meat a free trade deal with an independent Texas is the crown jewel of trade deals. :laugh:

[Toy Soldier]

If the Brexiters mitigate their stated aims

I don't know if you've been keeping up with the UK news since last Friday (other than the basic "it was Brexit") but they basically already have gone back on most of the "big focus" promises. Or at least scaled them back to "more realistic" levels. "We said £350 million a week for the NHS but we actually meant just £350, that was a typo lol".

But yes one of those was immigration and major Brexit figures have already admitted that immigration levels are "unlikely to change significantly" (which means they won't at all).

Now... I get campaign promises having to change over time, as the world changes or things prove to be unworkable... But several of these announcements were made mere DAYS after the vote. That means they definitely knew before the vote that their promises on paper were straight up false. And they knew that's what people were voting on. But they waited until after they got their result to admit the flaws. That's a problem to me... That simply undermines democracy and turns it into a sham. These campaigns become purely about who can build the prettiest gingerbread house.

I agree that the EU is full of corruption and inefficiency and major problems but... These people described above are what we're trading it for. What is the point?

[kirklancaster]

SOME MORE TRUTH TO BITE ON, PREFACED AND FOLLOWED BY SOME PERSONAL COMMENT (BECAUSE I FEEL SO STRONGLY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT) WHICH SHOULD SAVE ANY PEDANTIC CRITICISM AND CONFUSION BETWEEN FACT AND OPINION:

All the Doom-Merchants are repeating the threats made by certain companies to 'relocate' from the UK following Brexit, and are forcasting permanent irrecoverable economic catastrophe with the loss of thousands of jobs as a result.

But far more damaging relocations of perfectly healthy, viable and profitable businesses FROM the UK to FOREIGN (mainly EU) countries has been occurring THROUGHOUT our membership of the EU, with thousands of job losses, and very real catastrophic consequences for the communities affected, and though the EU DENIES as much - these relocations have been effected by EU design, and with EU financial inducement and assistance:

1. In 2010, TWININGS - the tea company - moved from North Shields UK to a new factory in POLAND after being 'awarded' a £12 million pounds EU grant.

Kirk Coment: Twinings had the British workers at the plant TRAINING UP their Polish worker replacements prior to being 'laid off'. So not only had the British workers had their own tax payments used against them by the EU to take away their jobs, they had their faces rubbed in the brown stuff too.

Incidently, it is against European Commission rules to use Regional Development Fund grant money to create jobs in one area at the expense of job losses in another area - but, despite this being a cynical abuse of its RDF program, all the EU had to say, was that they 'Would seek assurances from Poland" ??? THAT BIRD HAS FECKING FLOWN AND YOU OPENED THE CAGE AND CHARTED ITS FLIGHTPATH.

2. In 2011, Cadbury moved a factory from Keynsham UK to Poland with 400 job losses.

3. In 2013, Ford Transit were given an £80 million poud EU loan to facilitate moving its production from SOUTHAMPTON to TURKEY.

This came 'close on the heels' of a separate £10 million pound cash payment to Ford by the BRITISH GOVERNMENT to 'aid its operations'.

MORE ON THIS:

The loan from the European Union’s bank, owned by Britain and fellow member states, was agreed in June as part of a billion dollar investment plan – about £600m – for Ford’s sprawling 395-acre site in Kocaeli which is taking over production of Transits from Southampton.

Last night UKIP leader and Hampshire MEP Nigel Farage, who uncovered details of the loan, said: “For a year there has been a plan in place to take the jobs at Ford away from Southampton and move them to Turkey.

“But the sting in the tail is that the money to update the (Kocaeli) factory is coming from those same workers and their families as British taxpayers who are being forced to lend millions of pounds without ever being consulted.”

Mr Farage said he would now be raising the issue with the European Parliament.

In a further twist, he will also be demanding answers from Chancellor George Osborne – who is one of the bank’s governors.

Mr Farage will be asking if the Chancellor knew the Turkey cash was being made available ahead of the Southampton closure. And if the Chancellor was in the dark about Ford’s Southampton’s intentions, Mr Farage will be asking why.

The Treasury declined to comment.

Kirk Comment: There's that 'self-server Farage again who 'only cares about stopping immigration'.

4. In December of 2015, Jaguar Land Rover announced it was building a new £1 billion pound factory in Slovakia with the help of an EU grant.

Kirk Comment: Jaguar Land Rover is owned by TATA - the very same Tata who have killed off the UK's steel industry, put thousands on the dole, and siphoned off the poor Welsh steelworkers pension funds.

5. In 2007 Peugeot closed its Ryton Coventry plant and moved production to Slovakia with over 2,400 job losses.

6. In December 2014 Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX) announced it was closing down the last of its production plants at Poole and relocating to Poland with the aid of an EU grant.*

This follows similar relocations by the company to Poland, Italy, and Spain and Germany. Over 1,200. jobs lost in total.

OTHERS:

Gillette gone to eastern Europe.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany.


Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan

and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Kirk Comment: THERE ARE LOTS MORE, BUT I'M SURE THAT YOU 'GET THE PICTURE' – WELL THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO, THAT IS.

My point is, that the threats to 'Leave' (Nice word that :hee:) the UK by certain companies following Brexit, is mere THREAT as yet , whilst for decades the EU has – largely with OUR OWN tax money – been instrumental in transferring our manufacturing industry from the UK to EUROPE.

FAR FROM BEING BENEFICIAL FOR THE UK - THE EU HAS DELIBERATELY DECIMATED THIS COUNTRY, AND A SUCCESSION OF OUR GOVERNMENTS FROM HEATH TO CAMERON, HAVE BEEN COMPLICIT BECAUSE THEY HAVE VESTED FINANCIAL REASONS TO BE -- £BILLIONS OF THEM OVER 42 YEARS.

[Johnnyuk123]

Another excellent post Kirk. :clap1::clap1::clap1:

Won't these companies now have to clearly specify that their products were made outside of the UK or will the EU allow them to still say...made in Great Britain?

[Crimson Dynamo]

great post Kirk

[the truth]

What a mess. A PM on his way out, a labour coup to get rid of corbyn, an opportunistic sccotish leader trying to breakway from the Uk, will she take the euro? The spanish after Gibraltar, the Irish need a border? An invisible lib dem leader? Plaed are not taken seriously....Endless austerity...Tax breaks for corporations and billionaires across europe....Deregulation for massive corporations and endless red tape killing off SME's so healthy market competition is damaged....Just look at every local town? free parking and land gifted to massive out of town retailers, car parking charges high rates for town centre small businesses? its nationwide/europe wide pattern...With ttip on the way? which is a massive threat to all public services...debts across europe, now despicable racism on the rise? Lets hope the cops weed out these lowlifes.

There is no doubt as Tony Benn always said, the EU commission is in many ways anti democratic. That is and always has been its main intractable problem. The original common market was a wonderful idea and has achieved much. Quite why the EU couldnt have simply remained democratic and elected goodness only knows. Same with their unaudited accounts for 20 years ? The debts and unemployment rates across Europe are a travesty , youth unemployment is over 40% in some countries. I just wish a middle ground could be found, but listening to Juncker he has no interest as any compromise, as this would in his mind show weakness and would possibly open the door to other nations looking for deals. This total inflexibility will bring the EU down. The strongest men are those that remain flexible and bendable. Those who stay too stiff will snap.

In the meantime ftse has gone back to near its original , ftse250 still 6% down and the pound still 10% down on last week

Its rather interesting that london voted remain and the poorer areas like blaenau voted out....if we could go back a week or if we have a re vote today I think remain would win. but we are where we are.
Id like to think a compromise can be found in time , but it seems that will all come down to trade versus open borders.

The tricky issue of immigration could factor in populations and population rises in member nations. the UK population increased 3.7 million in 10 years , in the same period german population fell 2 million as their birth rate is so low. This is crucial, germany are desperate for people to come and work there. Why cant the EU and the UK sit down and make some kind of trade off here. Furthermore the last few neo liberal governments havent bothered building social housing either? Is anyone really checking how many people are living in houses? There are many families with up to 5 or 6 children in 3 bedroom houses...Then we have gangmasters bringing in masses of people are simply not paying them a proper wage, even if they do pay them minimum wages they soon deduct rent, transport , food etc etc We must be able to discuss these topics calmly and openly , if we continue to ignore it, then all we do is embolden the far right and the racist idiots who are currently running rife.

AH i FORGOT TOO, CORBYN wants the opportunity to renationalize steel , bt, parts of transport , utilities, etc etc I mean why is water privatized for goodness sakes? what kind of competitive market is that? but the EU section 206 outlaws re-nationalization, even though german coal is nationalized lol...so from the outset corbyn and old labour were directly opposite to what the EU has become...Thats why the labour members want corbyn but westminster wants a neo liberal pro establishment blairite...The eu controls the tariffs and for some reason they have chinese steel tariffs at a mere 11% whilst the usa has it at 522% ? that is mindboggling...maybe rubbish chinese steel from a nation paying slave wages and polluting the planet suited some people in the EU, who at the same time hammer everyone else for emissions?..so port talbot steelworks is kaput....our government arent allowed to help finance it or nationalize it. ..meanwhile as chinese steel only has 11% tariff, african coffee beans are over 30%, like so many of their products tariffs are high and we are trawling their shores too...so the africans are even more impoverished , but the punchline is the germans made 3.8 billin from african coffee beans last year due the the EU racket on tariffs and they dont even produce coffee? the africans made just 2.5 billion. do you honestly think germany or anyone else on the gravy train would risk giving over some of these profits?lets destroy their agriculture costing them billions, then just give a few million to african charities to look good in public

One notable moment on the night came at 5am when the result was all but done and dusted... when the great dai dimbleby turned to hillary benn and said something along the lines of "I sat here with your father at the other referendum 41 years ago, he told me then the EU commission is appointed , unelected and anti-democratic....why has it taken you so long to catch up?".....Hillary was pretty tongue tied

TONY BENN WAS THE ONLY HONEST INTELLIGENT MAN LEFT IN BRITISH POLITICS AND HIS MAGNIFICENT ANTO EU SPEECH HERE UNDERLINES THE FACT HE WAS 100% RIGHT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw well worth a look


Both campaigns were staggeringly poor. Instead of delivering facts and speaking from the heart we got exaggerations and scaremongering. Cameron has fallen on his sword, the scots want out again, the spanish want gibralter, what a mess....Corbyn it appears decided to support remain after pressure from the party, but after 39 years of protesting with his mate tony benn, railing against the corruption and anti democratic elite bias of the unelected eu commission that was a hard sell, now that he did appease the party , theyre now sticking the knife in because he didnt appease them enough? Maybe he was better off speaking his mind in full when he had the chance, to thine own self be true and all that.

[Withano]

Only negative things have happened since the refferendum. Out campaign has a lot to prove

[Toy Soldier]

Genuine question here Kirk but what makes you think any of those companies would still be manufacturing in the UK without EU membership / EU interference? Operating and labour costs are, just on a very basic level, far lower abroad... these companies left for their own financial bottom line and I'm not seeing why that would be ANY different unless you are advocating the UK also paying abysmally low wages in order to keep "up" with competing labour forces?

[joeysteele]

What a mess. A PM on his way out, a labour coup to get rid of corbyn, an opportunistic sccotish leader trying to breakway from the Uk, will she take the euro? The spanish after Gibraltar, the Irish need a border? An invisible lib dem leader? Plaed are not taken seriously....Endless austerity...Tax breaks for corporations and billionaires across europe....Deregulation for massive corporations and endless red tape killing off SME's so healthy market competition is damaged....Just look at every local town? free parking and land gifted to massive out of town retailers, car parking charges high rates for town centre small businesses? its nationwide/europe wide pattern...With ttip on the way? which is a massive threat to all public services...debts across europe, now despicable racism on the rise? Lets hope the cops weed out these lowlifes.

There is no doubt as Tony Benn always said, the EU commission is in many ways anti democratic. That is and always has been its main intractable problem. The original common market was a wonderful idea and has achieved much. Quite why the EU couldnt have simply remained democratic and elected goodness only knows. Same with their unaudited accounts for 20 years ? The debts and unemployment rates across Europe are a travesty , youth unemployment is over 40% in some countries. I just wish a middle ground could be found, but listening to Juncker he has no interest as any compromise, as this would in his mind show weakness and would possibly open the door to other nations looking for deals. This total inflexibility will bring the EU down. The strongest men are those that remain flexible and bendable. Those who stay too stiff will snap.

In the meantime ftse has gone back to near its original , ftse250 still 6% down and the pound still 10% down on last week

Its rather interesting that london voted remain and the poorer areas like blaenau voted out....if we could go back a week or if we have a re vote today I think remain would win. but we are where we are.
Id like to think a compromise can be found in time , but it seems that will all come down to trade versus open borders.

The tricky issue of immigration could factor in populations and population rises in member nations. the UK population increased 3.7 million in 10 years , in the same period german population fell 2 million as their birth rate is so low. This is crucial, germany are desperate for people to come and work there. Why cant the EU and the UK sit down and make some kind of trade off here. Furthermore the last few neo liberal governments havent bothered building social housing either? Is anyone really checking how many people are living in houses? There are many families with up to 5 or 6 children in 3 bedroom houses...Then we have gangmasters bringing in masses of people are simply not paying them a proper wage, even if they do pay them minimum wages they soon deduct rent, transport , food etc etc We must be able to discuss these topics calmly and openly , if we continue to ignore it, then all we do is embolden the far right and the racist idiots who are currently running rife.

AH i FORGOT TOO, CORBYN wants the opportunity to renationalize steel , bt, parts of transport , utilities, etc etc I mean why is water privatized for goodness sakes? what kind of competitive market is that? but the EU section 206 outlaws re-nationalization, even though german coal is nationalized lol...so from the outset corbyn and old labour were directly opposite to what the EU has become...Thats why the labour members want corbyn but westminster wants a neo liberal pro establishment blairite...The eu controls the tariffs and for some reason they have chinese steel tariffs at a mere 11% whilst the usa has it at 522% ? that is mindboggling...maybe rubbish chinese steel from a nation paying slave wages and polluting the planet suited some people in the EU, who at the same time hammer everyone else for emissions?..so port talbot steelworks is kaput....our government arent allowed to help finance it or nationalize it. ..meanwhile as chinese steel only has 11% tariff, african coffee beans are over 30%, like so many of their products tariffs are high and we are trawling their shores too...so the africans are even more impoverished , but the punchline is the germans made 3.8 billin from african coffee beans last year due the the EU racket on tariffs and they dont even produce coffee? the africans made just 2.5 billion. do you honestly think germany or anyone else on the gravy train would risk giving over some of these profits?lets destroy their agriculture costing them billions, then just give a few million to african charities to look good in public

One notable moment on the night came at 5am when the result was all but done and dusted... when the great dai dimbleby turned to hillary benn and said something along the lines of "I sat here with your father at the other referendum 41 years ago, he told me then the EU commission is appointed , unelected and anti-democratic....why has it taken you so long to catch up?".....Hillary was pretty tongue tied

TONY BENN WAS THE ONLY HONEST INTELLIGENT MAN LEFT IN BRITISH POLITICS AND HIS MAGNIFICENT ANTO EU SPEECH HERE UNDERLINES THE FACT HE WAS 100% RIGHT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw well worth a look


Both campaigns were staggeringly poor. Instead of delivering facts and speaking from the heart we got exaggerations and scaremongering. Cameron has fallen on his sword, the scots want out again, the spanish want gibralter, what a mess....Corbyn it appears decided to support remain after pressure from the party, but after 39 years of protesting with his mate tony benn, railing against the corruption and anti democratic elite bias of the unelected eu commission that was a hard sell, now that he did appease the party , theyre now sticking the knife in because he didnt appease them enough? Maybe he was better off speaking his mind in full when he had the chance, to thine own self be true and all that.

'the truth', you and I have disagreed a lot in the recent past but I do remember when we agreed far more.

While I agree with most of what you have in the post above and I do too feel for Corbyn and do accept he uncomfortably went down the party line, I just cannot see how in any scenario anywhere,where someone can lead if the people he is leading and in this case it is MPs,don't want him to.

They are the people he has to have in the main supporting him.
You know I have joined labour and it is awful witnessing this chaos.

However your post is really balanced,from immigration to the EU and the common market as was, I found myself agreeing more and more as I went through it.
You make a lot of valid points all through.

I also laughed at a particular few words you slotted in there as to 'an invisible Lib Dem leader'.

Well said to that whole post and really I mean that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Only negative things have happened since the refferendum. Out campaign has a lot to prove

like what?

[Toy Soldier]

like what?

"What negative things" or "what to prove"?

For the first... endless, both domestically and internationally, but as I said in the other thread you don't want to hear about them / will flat out deny them no matter what so it's pointless to go over that.

If you meant "What do they have to prove?"... the answer is anything. Anything at all. Just one positive thing would be nice. I'm aware that it's early days and the answer is likely to just be "Oh just give it time"... so time it will be given... but they still - in time - have a LOT to prove.

[the truth]

'the truth', you and I have disagreed a lot in the recent past but I do remember when we agreed far more.

While I agree with most of what you have in the post above and I do too feel for Corbyn and do accept he uncomfortably went down the party line, I just cannot see how in any scenario anywhere,where someone can lead if the people he is leading and in this case it is MPs,don't want him to.

They are the people he has to have in the main supporting him.
You know I have joined labour and it is awful witnessing this chaos.

However your post is really balanced,from immigration to the EU and the common market as was, I found myself agreeing more and more as I went through it.
You make a lot of valid points all through.

I also laughed at a particular few words you slotted in there as to 'an invisible Lib Dem leader'.

Well said to that whole post and really I mean that.

glad we agree on the majority
:dance:
corbyn won by a members landslide and he would win again, its only the elite westminster mps who want him out, because they want to return to neo liberal values and they think they have an opportunity to over turn brexit

[kirklancaster]

Genuine question here Kirk but what makes you think any of those companies would still be manufacturing in the UK without EU membership / EU interference? Operating and labour costs are, just on a very basic level, far lower abroad... these companies left for their own financial bottom line and I'm not seeing why that would be ANY different unless you are advocating the UK also paying abysmally low wages in order to keep "up" with competing labour forces?

If you ran your own company T.S. in Britain prior to us joining the European Union, and rising Government taxation (deliberate by the way) was affecting you, in addition to higher wage levels, and you could move to another country where taxes and wages were lower, but that move was going to cost you £millions - you would not be so eager to make that decision to move.

If you KNEW that a multi million pound low interest loan was available in addition to a muti million pound grant (dependant on area) you would NOT think twice.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"What negative things" or "what to prove"?

For the first... endless, both domestically and internationally, but as I said in the other thread you don't want to hear about them / will flat out deny them no matter what so it's pointless to go over that.

If you meant "What do they have to prove?"... the answer is anything. Anything at all. Just one positive thing would be nice. I'm aware that it's early days and the answer is likely to just be "Oh just give it time"... so time it will be given... but they still - in time - have a LOT to prove.

Withano made a rather silly post that only negative things have happened since the ref so I asked him like what?

You know to try and find out what on earth it means :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

nWnpbEMMsNw

[Withano]

Withano made a rather silly post that only negative things have happened since the ref so I asked him like what?

You know to try and find out what on earth it means :shrug:

Toy Soldier has answered it for me, I'd like to add a divided nation, the uncertainty of global, european and british politics and the steep incline of british racism and xenophobia. The lies that lead to victory has been condemned by the people who supported the lies and the realisation that our political leaders are ruthless and untrustworthy is deeply saddening. Farages speech to the eu council was dangerous immature and irresponsible and huge businesses like Virgin losing a third of heir wealth. there has been literally zero pros to us leaving so far.

I dont feel like you could have missed any of this happening, so it seems more like denial from your part but yes they have a lot to prove, they no longer have to just slightly improve, they now have to also reverse this damage.

My post was not pro eu, it was just realistic. There is no way that you, I or anybody else could know whether leaving it is a good thing for at least three years. But right now, 29th of June 2016, we can conclude that it was the wrong decision. This could change.

[kirklancaster]

IN SUPPORT OF MY EARLIER POST CONCERNING THE APPALLING COST OF MEP'S:

European MEPs cost £1.79m a year each - three times as much as MPs
MEPs sitting in the European Parliament cost three times as much as Westminster MPs at a price tag of £1.79 million each a year, new figures shoLord Sassoon, the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, revealed the cost of an MEP is £1.79 million compared with £590,000 per MP. Peers sitting in the House of Lords cost just £130,000 a year.

He gave the breakdown of costs per politician based on figures that show the European Parliament costs £1.3 billion per year, shared by taxpayers across member countries. In contrast, the combined cost of the House of Commons and House of Lords was £494 million last year.

MEPs are also more highly paid than MPs, getting a salary of around £80,000 per year compared with £65,738 in Westminster.

The data emerged in answer to a parliamentary question by Lord Stoddart of Swindon, an independent Labour peer, who said they laid bare the "appallingly high running cost of the European Parliament".

“These are eye watering figures that make Westminster look like very good value for money," he said. "The European Parliament costs £838 million per annum more than the combined cost of the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

The former Swindon MP urged the Government to take a "serious look at its contribution to the cost of running the European Parliament" as it seeks to reduce the deficit.
"This is an institution that does not hold proper debates and whose members cannot even introduce a Private Members Bill," he said. "It merely acts as a rubber stamp for the unelected European Commission’s legislative proposals. The number of MEPs has risen from 736 to 754, since these figures were produced, so even these huge figures fall short of the real cost.”
David Cameron last year met with resistance when he urged European institutions to cut costs as he went to Brussels to negotiate the next seven years of spending.

He called on the Europe Commission, the Brussels civil service, to reduce its budget by sacking staff and cuts the pay of 4,000 officials on six-figure salaries.

However, the Commission repeatedly ignored requests from member countries to reduce staffing costs.

A commission spokesman told The Daily Telegraph at the time: "We declined as it's a lot of work and waste of time for our staff who busy with more urgent matters.

"Because of language requirements, we are better educated than national civil servants. We're high fliers not burger flippers."

ARROGANCE AND CONTEMPT FROM THESE INSTITUTIONALLY CORRUPT ELITISTS. 'BETTER OFF OUT' - YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

[kirklancaster]

MORE ARROGANCE AND CONTEMPT FROM THESE INSTITUTIONALLY CORRUPT EU ELITISTS, AND YET ANOTHER HUGE REASON WHY 'LEAVE' WAS THE ONLY SENSIBLE DECISION:

HISTORICAL AND ONGOING, INSTITUTIONAL FRAUD, THEFT, AND CORRUPTION IN THE EU.

Have the EU accounts been signed off or not? March 30, 2016 by Richard Milton - with personal comments added by me:

Have the EU’s accounts for the past 19 years been signed off by the auditors or not? The EU says they have been signed off, while critics in parliament and the media say they have not. So who is telling the truth about the accounts? What are the real facts?

First, a little background to the controversy. Since 1977, the EU’s budget has been audited annually by a body called the European Court of Auditors, based in Luxembourg. The Court is nominally independent, although it is funded by the EU.

In the 1980s, the EU’s budget became the subject of allegations of fraud, so in 1988 the EU formed UCLAF – the Unit for the Co-ordination of Fraud Protection.

After 10 years, no-one was prosecuted


A decade later, In 1997, the Court of Auditors investigated UCLAF and discovered that it was dealing with 40 cases of potential corruption, conflict of interests, favouritism or just bad management. Many of the cases had been brought to UCLAF by members of staff of the Commission reporting their suspicions about other officials.

In a report described as “devastating”, the Court revealed that no-one had been prosecuted for fraud and no-one was likely to be prosecuted, because UCLAF had no powers of investigation or arrest and there was no European prosecutor to take on such cases.


It recommended that UCLAF be replaced by, in effect, an economic FBI with the staff and the powers to police the EU’s huge budget – a fully fledged operational fraud squad.

Later the same year, 1998, Paul van Buitenen, an assistant internal auditor in the European Commission’s Financial Control Directorate, turned whistleblower and wrote directly to the European Parliament expressing
his “. . discontent with the way the Commission services are dealing with irregularities and possible fraud.”

His whistleblowing led ultimately led to the resignation of the Commission presided over by Jacques Santer. His reward was to be suspended with his salary halved. He fought back and his exposures triggered the collapse of Santer’s Commission.

Formation of OLAF
In the wake of the “Santergate” scandal, UCLAF was replaced by a new organisation, OLAF. This was said to be an improvement since OLAF had more staff, more money and clearer guidelines and was described as representing a move towards a more serious investigative prosecuting body. But it remained the case that only national member states could take legal action against suspected fraudsters – the same central weakness that had defeated UCLAF.

OLAF is notified of some 12,000 cases of possible fraud every year, and says that it adopts a “zero tolerance” policy towards corruption and fraud in EU institutions.

In reality, OLAF must be somewhat more tolerant than “zero” as it investigates only some 200 cases per year – that is to say 98% of reported cases go uninvestigated.

This is the most likely explanation of the fact that, since 1999, OLAF has sent only 335 people to jail and recovered only 1.1 Billion Euros of EU money – less than one-thousandth of the amount unaccounted for.

Kirk Comment: YES - That is over £1,000 BILLION.

One other obstacle to OLAF nailing anyone inside the EU is that EU law gives EU officials immunity from prosecution both while they work in the EU and then for the rest of their lives for any acts committed in the course of their duties. Even if OLAF managed to put together a case against an EU employee, he or she could not be prosecuted anyway.

Kirk Comment: STILL say the EU is NOT corrupt?

This long history of corruption and fraud brings us to the case of Marta Andreason, who in 2002 was appointed the EU’s first Chief Accountant, the director responsible for budget execution and the EU’s accounting officer.

From the start, Andreasen was critical of the EU’s accounting system for being open to fraud, criticisms she raised with her superior but to no effect. She voiced her doubts to Commissioner Michaele Schreyer and the Commission President Romano Prodi, and when she got no reply approached members of the EU Parliament’s Budget Control Committee.

Because of her doubts, she refused to sign off the 2001 European Commission accounts and went public with her concerns. She suffered a similar fate to Paul van Buitenen before her, and was sacked for speaking out (“failure to show sufficient loyalty and respect”.) In reality she was fired for refusing to sign the account and embarrassing the Commission by letting the cat out of the bag about the extent of fraud.

A series of other EU officials tried to blow the whistle on the fraud and corruption of their colleagues and all received similar treatment, Dorte Schmidt-Brown, Robert Dougal Watt and Robert McCoy. Their cases are detailed below.

At this point, in 2002, EU officials realised that they could no longer conceal or ignore the extent of fraud and corruption in the EU budget and that they must act to try to restore public confidence in the EU’s financial affairs. So they did what most large bureaucratic organisations do in these circumstances. When you cannot change the facts, you change the way the facts are presented. So the EU turned to public relations to solve their problem.

From 2002 until the present, the Court of Auditors continued to audit the budget annually, but they no longer signed off the accounts as a whole. Instead, they have split the budget into two sections – the part to which they are willing to give a clean bill of health, and the part to which they are not willing to give a clean bill. The Auditors refer to this second part as its “opinion on the underlying payments which have been negative or adverse”.

To justify this change in established auditing procedure it came up with a number of arguments. The budget is too big and too complicated for us to expect them to account for every penny. Every large organisation has amounts missing and unaccounted for. We can’t expect the EU Auditors to know every little thing that goes on inside member countries. The bit that’s not signed off is “only” a few per cent of the budget so it’s not worth making a fuss about. And, in any case, said the Auditors, although we do not know where the money went or who took it, we can say that it definitely wasn’t fraud or theft.

Kirk Comment: :joker::joker::joker: Four fecking decades of this fraud and corruption and this is their arrogant 'feck you, take it or leave it' explanation. You could NOT make it up.

“Errors”, said the auditors, “do not mean that EU money is lost, wasted or affected by fraud.” When asked to give an example of some money that had gone missing that wasn’t fraud, the EU said, “A farmer was granted a special premium for 150 sheep. The Court found that the beneficiary did not have any sheep. The corresponding payment was therefore irregular.” The missing money is accounted for by changing the word “fraud” to the word “irregular”.

Despite Orwellian verbal contortions like this, there are some elements of truth in the EU’s arguments. Balancing the books and accounting for all the expenditure of an organisation as big as the EU is not an easy task.

But remember, the question we are trying to answer here is not, “How difficult is it to audit the EU’s accounts?” but rather “Have the EU accounts been signed off for the past 19 years.” And the only honest answer to this second question is clearly, “No, they have not been signed off”.

What the EU has done is not to make extra efforts to get to the bottom of its accounts and sign them off, but to change the normal rules of accounts auditing so that they no longer apply to the EU, and to change the meaning of ordinary English words to try to persuade us that this procedure is acceptable.

So that when The Daily Telegraph says “that EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100 billion of its own spending” or the BBC’s John Humphreys on Radio Four’s “Today” says the same thing, they are – according to the EU – the victims of a “misunderstanding”.

(I am reproducing the EU Court of Auditors press handout of 11 November 2014 in its entirely below because it is a masterpiece of sleight of hand that deserves to be read word for word, very slowly.)

Some of the EU’s arguments might hold water were it not for one over-arching fact that makes them pale into insignificance. It’s true that, in 2015, the amount not signed off by the Court of Auditors was “only” 4.7% of the budget. The problem is that 4.7% of the budget is 6.97 BILLION Euros – enough to build 70 major hospitals or 150 large secondary schools.

And in the Court of Auditors own words, (their emphasis) “The £109 billion refers to the spending areas for which our audit work shows a material error rate.”


Over the past twenty five years, I have delivered hundreds of training courses in PR and Journalism to thousands of PR people and journalists. I’ve also written four books on PR and propaganda, one of which the Sunday Times was kind enough to name as its Business Book of the Week. A key element of my workshops is to caution delegates against the temptation to try to use PR methods dishonestly to influence people. I illustrate this using the most egregious press releases sent to me over the years as examples.

In future I shall not use my collection of ‘black’ press releases. I shall instead use the press handout from the EU Court of Auditors (below) as my primary training example as it is the worst that has ever crossed my desk. In my opinion, It has everything that a press statement should not have: dissembling, deceit, weasel words, misdirection, a fog of undefined terms, arrogant condescension, and a personal attack on journalists reporting accurately and honestly. It is a clarification that it wholly lacking in clarity.

It says the EU’s accounts have been signed off but at the same time says that part of the EU’s accounts has not been signed off. It places the blame for failure to comprehend this elementary distinction on us, the public. If we think the accounts haven’t been signed off, it’s all been a “misunderstanding” on our part because we don’t understand EU accounting procedures.

Or, as George Orwell (who must be spinning at near light speed in his grave) would have said, we have not yet learned, like the EU, to practice the art of Doublethink.

Kirk Comment: The LARGEST amount of 'Missing Money' which the EU 'LOST' BUT NO ONE STOLE :laugh: is, of course, the £259 BILLION POUNDS which the auditors discovered in 2014, which cost the UK an extra £34 BILLION POUNDS in a EU DEMANDED one-off payment to help replace the stolen money - even though it had FECK ALL to do with us. CAMERON said very emphatically in public that he would not pay this ransom, before paying it in secret 6 months later.

BETTER OFF OUT - YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

[Johnnyuk123]

I'd like to say that i can't believe how corrupt the EU is but i would be lying!
Absolutely amazing posts full of facts once again Kirk! Well done! :clap1::clap1::clap1:

Thankfully the future is now looking brighter thanks to Nigel Farage.

http://www.widgeripoo.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/nigel_farage.28363304_std.jpg

[arista]

I'd like to say that i can't believe how corrupt the EU is but i would be lying!
Absolutely amazing posts full of facts once again Kirk! Well done! :clap1::clap1::clap1:

Thankfully the future is now looking brighter thanks to Nigel Farage.

http://www.widgeripoo.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/nigel_farage.28363304_std.jpg


Yes he started taking Daves men
we got OUR EU Vote


And Good on DAVID CAMERON
telling everyone (before the vote)
who voted No 2nd chance
and dragging the pathetic USA President over


Cheers Dave