Sturgeon Gets EU Sympathy But Little Hope

[kirklancaster]

NICOLA STURGEON'S PLEA TO EU LEADERS MEETS WITH SYMPATHY BUT LITTLE HOPE.

First minister, in Brussels to lobby for remaining in EU, finds officials reluctant to enter talks on separate future for Scotland.
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Nicola Sturgeon’s hopes of gaining support for her bid to keep Scotland in the European Union despite the UK’s vote to leave have been dealt a blow after the Spanish prime minister warned: “If the United Kingdom leaves … Scotland leaves.”

Speaking in Brussels, where the Scottish first minister held a series of meetings to lobby for Scotland, Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said that although he would gladly hear Sturgeon’s case, he was not in a position to enter into talks on Scotland’s future separately from the UK.

“Scotland won the right to be heard in Brussels,” said Juncker on Wednesday. “So I will listen carefully to what the first minister will tell me but we don’t have the intention, neither Donald [Tusk, president of the European council,] nor myself, to interfere in the British process. That is not our job.”

The Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, was even stronger in his dismissal of Scottish hopes of avoiding being forced out in a Brexit.

“I want to be very clear: Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union. Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of the United Kingdom,” he told a news conference following a summit of European leaders in Brussels.

“I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves … Scotland leaves,” he added. Madrid has a troubled relationship with the separatist inclinations of Catalonia.

Sturgeon said she was not surprised at the Spanish position, adding: “I have a duty as first minister to find a way to give effect to the democratic will of Scotland.”

Earlier, after a meeting with the European parliament president, Martin Schulz, Sturgeon said: “Scotland is determined to stay in the EU. I don’t underestimate the challenges that lie ahead for us in seeking to find a path.”

Schulz said he had “listened and learned”.

David McAllister, a Scottish-German MEP and key ally of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said he thought it was right that Sturgeon had come to Brussels.

“I think it is fair that the Scottish voice should be heard in Brussels,” he told the Guardian, noting that the first minister had been “the most visible British politician on German TV” over the weekend.

“In Germany, there is now a new interest in the Scottish debate and in trying to understand the argument from both sides,” said McAllister, who was once considered one of Merkel’s potential successors and is now one of the key intermediaries between the British and German governments.

But, despite the sympathy felt by many in Europe for Scotland’s predicament, Sturgeon’s hopes of ensuring the country remains in the bloc look likely to be crushed.

As made clear by Rajoy, Spain, as well as Belgium and other countries that are worried about separatism, would oppose any plan to continue Scotland’s membership, or allow it special status. Other countries are sympathetic to Scotland’s plight, but don’t see any way to bend the rules.

An EU diplomat said it was “out of the question” for Scotland to stay in the EU following Brexit, saying: “We are a union of member states.”

In Edinburgh, senior pro-EU Scottish Conservatives accused Sturgeon of making a tactical error by embarking on what one described as “freelance diplomacy” in Brussels without working first with the UK government.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, broadly supports Sturgeon’s proposals to win special arrangements for Scotland with the EU but believes they have greater chance of being listened to as part of the official UK Brexit talks, once they start.

Prof Adam Tomkin, the Tory constitution spokesman at Holyrood, said: “Simply ploughing her own furrow will not work, and will make for an overall weaker case. Sturgeon has already had several rejections on this solo mission, which is why she should be teaming up with the rest of the UK to get the best deal for Scotland.”

Brussels insiders are also loth to intervene in what they see as a British political problem that the prime minister, David Cameron, did not consider when he called a referendum.

Several EU diplomats have said the only way for Scotland to be part of the EU would be to become an independent country and reapply for membership, a process estimated to take five to seven years.

All EU countries have the right to veto new members.

Almost two-thirds of Scots voted to remain in last week’s EU referendum, but the country looks set to be forced out because a majority of English voted to leave.

The commission will have a bigger role than the parliament in Brexit talks, but is unlikely to be any more helpful in meeting Sturgeon’s hopes. A source close to the president said he would “be in listening mode”.

Tusk declined to meet Sturgeon. A source close to him said: “It’s not the right time.” Tusk, who represents national leaders, is concerned that meeting Sturgeon would lead to an avalanche of requests from other territories and regions. The European council president was also chairing an unprecedented EU summit in Brussels, bringing together 27 EU leaders, for the first time without the UK.

EU leaders reacted frostily to the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, but an application to rejoin after Brexit has received more sympathy.

The SNP politician Alyn Smith has appealed to European colleagues to help Scotland, calling for cool heads and warm hearts. In a fervent address to the European parliament on Tuesday, he said: “Please remember this. Scotland did not let you down. Please I beg you … do not let Scotland down now.”

[Toy Soldier]

Spain's attitudes have nothing to do with Scotland and everything to do with Catalonia. Ridiculous.

[MTVN]

Well its entirely ridiculous of course to consider that Scotland could remain in the EU when the UK does not, its the SNP with an inflated sense of their own importance again

[Johnnyuk123]

Spain will never allow it.

[joeysteele]

Not so, she herself said this was just preliminary meeting to sound things out.
What has been agreed is that no discussions can really take place with Scotland, until the UK has triggered Article 50.
Also then the final outcome of all that work as to dismantling everything and new trading deals done if possible,is known.

She has had no rebuff at all yet, it's just that the EU has to honour the actions and negotiations obviously with the UK first, not with one of the UK Nations separately.

What she has put on the table today is that Scotland would like to remain a full EU member once the UK officially has left the EU.
That is noted now.

[arista]

Spain's attitudes have nothing to do with Scotland and everything to do with Catalonia. Ridiculous.


No TS
it was on NewsnightHD on BBC2



Spain is going to put
your new money € join
at the back of the Line.

[arista]

Spain will never allow it.



Thats Not OUR problem
Johnny

[joeysteele]

No TS
it was on NewsnightHD on BBC2



Spain is going to put
your new money € join
at the back of the Line.

Spain will likely be able to be won round if the EU want them to be and I am pretty sure Spain would love to get one over on the UK, England particularly.

[arista]

Spain will likely be able to be won round if the EU want them to be and I am pretty sure Spain would love to get one over on the UK, England particularly.


Its not a Football Game
you know!

[joeysteele]

Its not a Football Game
you know!

Even if it was,Spain would still love to get one over on England.

I can see the EU doing something for Scotland eventually.

[jaxie]

Even if it was,Spain would still love to get one over on England.

I can see the EU doing something for Scotland eventually.

Spain will never support Scotland because of its own separatists who it will not even allow a referendum. Spain will also have to find someone else's ocean to over fish soon.

[Mystic Mock]

Well its entirely ridiculous of course to consider that Scotland could remain in the EU when the UK does not, its the SNP with an inflated sense of their own importance again

Tbf Scotland and NI are their own countries at the end of the day, why should England and the Sheep decide how they run their countries?"

Btw I really love Wales as it has lots of greenery.:dance:

[arista]

Well its entirely ridiculous of course to consider that Scotland could remain in the EU when the UK does not, its the SNP with an inflated sense of their own importance again


But thats want they Think - UP THERE, no joke

[Wizard.]

Spain will never support Scotland because of its own separatists who it will not even allow a referendum. Spain will also have to find someone else's ocean to over fish soon.

Exactly! Spain would not risk it's own seperation just to "get one over on England." If anyone blindly thinks that Scotland can just pop off from the UK and join the EU then you do not understand European politics! 27 other countries have their own interests to think about before Scotlands!

[kirklancaster]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQY2jAHfAReOGS-j_l7KFtnDwfe1Fs2aPerZK94Mm_PMUUB1Lp9

"FOUR NATIONS WENT INTO THE EU AS ONE ENTITY ..... FOUR NATIONS CAME OUT OF THE EU AS ONE.

"I WARNED THE UK, 'ONCE YOU'RE AWAY FROM THAT SHARK JUNCKERS.... YOU BETTER WORRY ABOUT THAT LITTLE STURGEON.

Scotland will have to hold another 'Independence' referendum, and if the Scots do leave the United Kingdom, they will have to then apply to join the EU in their own right, which could take years.

I cannot 'for the life of me' understand WHY they would want to do either, but that is for them to decide, and good luck to them.

[Johnnyuk123]

I predict that Nicola Sturgeon will be in panto come Christmas 2016 playing grumpy in Snow White.

[Josy]

Well its entirely ridiculous of course to consider that Scotland could remain in the EU when the UK does not, its the SNP with an inflated sense of their own importance again

Pretty much this

[joeysteele]

Tbf Scotland and NI are their own countries at the end of the day, why should England and the Sheep decide how they run their countries?"

Btw I really love Wales as it has lots of greenery.:dance:

I love Wales, as a child me and my friends played near the Border as I was born not far from the Border.

The point is Nicola has to try to do all she can after the Scottish vote, the most decisive in the UK as to the EU too.
She said she would and has to.

At this moment in time, the UK is still in the EU,nothing can be discussed yet.
If the UK negotiators accept still, the free movement to remain in the single market,with the costs we still will have to contribute there too,then little has changed in any event,except we get no say in what happens in the future but wills till have to go with it..
It may be that that will ease the need for any further independence vote in Scotland.

That will not however be known until the negotiations of the next 3 or 4 or even more years to come are eventually concluded.

[jaxie]

I think it's very unlikely that Scotland will hold a vote any time soon and all this fuss over the EU is more about the SNPs ambitions than the people of Scotland's wishes and needs. Scotland needs the income from North Sea oil if it has any chance to survive without the UK as a potential cash cow. Oil prices have tanked since 2014 when they had the referendum. The SNPs only hope of an independent Scotland is for the EU to become it's cash cow and prop it up. It's so not going to happen. Without assurances they would have someone to lean on financially there is no way Sturgeon will call another referendum at this time. They have a deficit which means they spend more than have coming in. Without some sort of financial prop up Scotland can probably kiss goodbye to all the perks like free prescriptions and education. Most Scots might think the SNP is the best thing since sliced bread for all it spends per capita on its people but it's actually spendimg money it doesn't have so they are being fooled if they believe all that would carry on in an independent Scotland.

From a personal stand point I don't get why Scotland would want to become independent from the UK where it virtually governs itself and has a budget that allows it to have free prescriptions and education, to go into the EU which would force it into the Euro and all that entails and make its laws for it. Go figure. :shrug:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/11/scottish-financial-deficit-40-higher-than-rest-of-uk-data-reveals

And what if the SNP has to make cuts due to its over spending money it doesnt have? No problem it can just blame Westminster and the rest of the UK! Win win.

Did you know that Nicola Sturgeon's pay makes her the highest paid politician in the UK. On paper she gets more than the PM! No wonder there is a deficit! :nono: Admittedly some of it goes into a fund because Salmond put a pay freeze on them but it's still pretty irresponsible to dish out pay rises, wherever they go, when the country is in deficit and many of the public don't get a pay rise.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/18/scottish-parliament-votes-pay-rise-msps-nicola-sturgeon

Also if Scotland didn't want the Tories in they should have voted labour in the general election. Voting SNP guaranteed them a Tory government.

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes I think Scotland should just cow tail to Westminster and England as everyone can see that they are doing a great job of things. Just sit back and let them run things


I mean its not like the PM has resigned in a huff and the opposition have all left etc now is it?

[jaxie]

yes I think Scotland should just cow tail to Westminster and England as everyone can see that they are doing a great job of things. Just sit back and let them run things


I mean its not like the PM has resigned in a huff and the opposition have all left etc now is it?

Scotland does nicely out of the Union, don't kid yourself. Do you seriously think a Scottish exit from the UK would be less painful economically than the UK leaving he EU? Think on.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Scotland does nicely out of the Union, don't kid yourself.

yes I suppose if you just use the DM and DE as your news source

[jaxie]

yes I suppose if you just use the DM and DE as your news source

What do you use as yours?

I posted a bunch of reasons why I don't think the SNP will try another referendum at this time. Do you have any facts to believe otherwise. If the guardian is wrong about the financial deficit, where are the articles to correct it?

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/06/09/09/2976A8F300000578-3116396-Miss_Sturgeon_laughed_when_asked_about_what_is_in_ haggis_and_why-m-15_1433837755767.jpg

[jaxie]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/06/09/09/2976A8F300000578-3116396-Miss_Sturgeon_laughed_when_asked_about_what_is_in_ haggis_and_why-m-15_1433837755767.jpg

You don't have any facts then? I'm interested in discussion but don't just spout a bit of anti union resentment. Give us some facts, back it up, show me if I'm wrong?

I don't live in Scotland so if you have more info about why the union is bad for you I'd love to hear it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

What do you use as yours?

I posted a bunch of reasons why I don't think the SNP will try another referendum at this time. Do you have any facts to believe otherwise. If the guardian is wrong about the financial deficit, where are the articles to correct it?

well "you think" is not a fact its just your personal opinion and as no referendum is on the table I am not sure what "facts" you wish to see?

[jaxie]

well "you think" is not a fact its just your personal opinion and as no referendum is on the table I am not sure what "facts" you wish to see?

I said Scotland does nicely out of the union.

You said "yes I suppose if you just use the DM and DE as your news source"

So what news sources can you provide to give weight to your opinion that Scotland doesn't do nicely out of the union?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I said Scotland does nicely out of the union.

You said "yes I suppose if you just use the DM and DE as your news source"

So what news sources can you provide to give weight to your opinion that Scotland doesn't do nicely out of the union?

What do you mean by nicely and why do you think that the Union should be detrimental to Scotland?

[jaxie]

What do you mean by nicely and why do you think that the Union should be detrimental to Scotland?

That's not what I said at all let's not imply I said things I didn't say. :nono: Where are your articles?

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's not what I said at all let's not imply I said things I didn't say. :nono: Where are your articles?

i actually have no idea what you are asking. What does nicely mean?

[joeysteele]

Scotland does nicely,I think not.

It has been taken for granted by the 2 main Parties for decades, even when the Conservatives did rather well there until the early 80s.

Yes it was UK oil but oil the UK would not have been able to have and squander the proceeds from, had Scotland not been a Nation in the UK.

Scotland was used as a dumping ground for unsavoury policies testing such as the hated poll tax.

Worst of all, near all Scotland's concerns are just dismissed by, in the main England, of the UK now.

It would now even be pointless to have a Scottish leader in a Scottish seat as leader of a Major UK party now too,with the votes for England policy, a Scottish leader as PM would not be able to vote on his/her own polices if it didn't affect Scotland.

So now what we have is a situation where only an MP in an English seat is advisable to have as a leader.

Scotland does nicely, not at all I'd say.

[Toy Soldier]

Certain people were desperate to be out of Europe because they didn't like being under the control of elites who they did not elect... And yet don't seem to understand the problem with Scotland being under Westminster control. Hmm.

[smudgie]

I have no problem with a totally independent Scotland.
We could get a visa to visit this beautiful country, no problem.
My only concern is that it is not very long since the last referendum, if Nicola was given the nod to join Europe from the other 27 countries then I can see the advantages and the reasoning behind it.

[MTVN]

Well it seems strange to me that the SNP are so affronted by the prospect of leaving one union that their response is to demand the leaving of a much more deeply embedded and longer standing union. They fear the ramifications of leaving the EU yet dismiss the consequences of breaking up the UK. Project Fear against Brexit = sensible, Project Fear against Scottish Independence = outrageous. When all experts and informed opinion line up against Brexit its a consensus, when they do it against independence its a Westminster conspiracy.

[joeysteele]

I have no problem with a totally independent Scotland.
We could get a visa to visit this beautiful country, no problem.
My only concern is that it is not very long since the last referendum, if Nicola was given the nod to join Europe from the other 27 countries then I can see the advantages and the reasoning behind it.

However smudgie, she will not be holding any referendum soon, we may not actually be out of the EU for anything up to or even beyond 7 years.

She could wait until the next Holyrood elections and combine the 2.

Nothing can be done until we see what the UK negotiates and gets from the EU, it may be the final deal is not too different from what we have now in the end.
The EU will not 'deal' with Scotland until, out of respect for the UK and this vote,the matter of the UKs exit is nearer finalised.

That is when Nicola and the Scottish parliament can then have their concerns addressed,all she needs in place before, is the granting of a referendum to be so called by the Scottish govt.

The referendum does not need to be held for years.
She has that time because in my opinion, the Scottish Nationailst party will be governing Scotland for at least another decade or more.

[smudgie]

However smudgie, she will not be holding any referendum soon, we may not actually be out of the EU for anything up to or even beyond 7 years.

She could wait until the next Holyrood elections and combine the 2.

Nothing can be done until we see what the UK negotiates and gets from the EU, it may be the final deal is not too different from what we have now in the end.
The EU will not 'deal' with Scotland until, out of respect for the UK and this vote,the matter of the UKs exit is nearer finalised.

That is when Nicola and the Scottish parliament can then have their concerns addressed,all she needs in place before, is the granting of a referendum to be so called by the Scottish govt.

The referendum does not need to be held for years.
She has that time because in my opinion, the Scottish Nationailst party will be governing Scotland for at least another decade or more.

She has shown her interest, at least Europe now know where she stands.
Perhaps it would be wise to leave it until the next election.
I totally agree with you that Nicola Sturgeon is pretty safe as the Scottish leader. I don't personally like her, but she certainly puts her party first and will fight for her country.

[joeysteele]

She has shown her interest, at least Europe now know where she stands.
Perhaps it would be wise to leave it until the next election.
I totally agree with you that Nicola Sturgeon is pretty safe as the Scottish leader. I don't personally like her, but she certainly puts her party first and will fight for her country.



She for sure does smudgie.:wavey:

[jaxie]

Well it seems strange to me that the SNP are so affronted by the prospect of leaving one union that their response is to demand the leaving of a much more deeply embedded and longer standing union. They fear the ramifications of leaving the EU yet dismiss the consequences of breaking up the UK. Project Fear against Brexit = sensible, Project Fear against Scottish Independence = outrageous. When all experts and informed opinion line up against Brexit its a consensus, when they do it against independence its a Westminster conspiracy.

:clap2:

[jaxie]

Certain people were desperate to be out of Europe because they didn't like being under the control of elites who they did not elect... And yet don't seem to understand the problem with Scotland being under Westminster control. Hmm.

Westminster don't make Scotland throw away their bent carrots and spend 4 years debating chocolate. :shrug:

[Toy Soldier]

Westminster don't make Scotland throw away their bent carrots and spend 4 years debating chocolate. :shrug:
Nah they just whack £15 a week taxes on the poorest and most vulnerable and force cancer patients into work.

[jaxie]

Nah they just whack £15 a week taxes on the poorest and most vulnerable and force cancer patients into work.

One of the wonders of having a government you can vote out is that pressure can be brought to bear to change bad policies.

[Toy Soldier]

One of the wonders of having a government you can vote out is that pressure can be brought to bear to change bad policies.
Except that Scotland cannot vote them out... And around we go again.

[jaxie]

Except that Scotland cannot vote them out... And around we go again.

Scotland could have voted labour and had a very real chance of getting them out.

[Toy Soldier]

Scotland could have voted labour and had a very real chance of getting them out.
Incorrect, if every single Scottish constituency had been Labour, the Tories would still have had an overall majority.

[jaxie]

Incorrect, if every single Scottish constituency had been Labour, the Tories would still have had an overall majority.

I did say would have had a chance, not specifically would have won this time. Better luck next time? Or vote SNP and keep the tories in. :shrug: You decide!

[Johnnyuk123]

Is Scotland gonna be the new Greece?

[Toy Soldier]

Is Scotland gonna be the new Greece?
It's OK if it is, I'll just come and live with all of you in the land of gold and rainbows that is post Brexit England. Because I kidnapped one of your English wimmins and impregnated her with my Scottish penis. Muahaha, love it when a plan comes together.

[jaxie]

It's OK if it is, I'll just come and live with all of you in the land of gold and rainbows that is post Brexit England. Because I kidnapped one of your English wimmins and impregnated her with my Scottish penis. Muahaha, love it when a plan comes together.

You know it will rain right?

[Toy Soldier]

You know it will rain right?
Of course, how else would there be rainbows?