ID cards - Do we need them and why?

[Red Moon]

The government plans to introduce ID cards but is this a good idea? Will they create as many problems as they solve?

The reasons used for the introduction of ID cards by the government include:

Prevent illegal immigration

Prevent illegal working

Aid anti-terrorism measures

Tackle identity theft

Reduce benefit fraud and abuse of public services

Enhance sense of community

While the people against ID cards believe:

Lead to loss of privacy

Be costly and impractical

Worsen harassment of ethnic minorities

Have little impact on counter-terrorism

Have little effect on illegal working

Lead to ‘function creep’ in that the cards would be used to store more and more data on the card holder than a simple ID

Do we really need ID cards or are the current ID systems like passports, driving licenses , National insurance numbers, etc good enough? Is this just another way of governments keeping track of what we do?

[ttw]

Just another way to keep track. It is all about control.

You cannot deny it may come with some advantages... but are they really significant enough to outweigh the disadvantages.

Personally I think not.

[Ruth]

I'm not against actually having an identity card, but if it is made compulsory, I do not see why people should have to pay for it. Also, I really don't think it will be effective in combating, terrorism, fraud etc. If something can be made, it can be forged.

[The_Hitman]

Absolutely no way on earth. It would be the beginning of the end.

[GiRTh]

I think it's a good idea.

The problem is making it compulsory. It'd be a breech of civil liberties and then there's the cost. It'd also a logisitical nightmare to implement. Too many minuses.

[ttw]

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Absolutely no way on earth. It would be the beginning of the end.

Exactly.

They have it all planned out already, first they bring in the ID cards...next it will be chips inplanted into the back of your hand.

[Emilee]

well ID cards just annoy me, when i try to get into 15 movies they are always like D.O.B??? I say one so im 15 then they still ask you for an ID card. I tryed using my school library card once. They didnt buy it.

[ttw]

Originally posted by Emilee
well ID cards just annoy me, when i try to get into 15 movies they are always like D.O.B??? I say one so Im 15 then they still ask you for an ID card. I tryed using my school library card once. They didnt buy it.

lol

[Sophii3x]

It was important for me to have my card
Becuase when I went to see a 12 film in the cinema they didn't belive me.. and that was last year:tongue:

But I think it's also important to have them so underage youngsters can't get drink, fags and get into nightclubs... But they just seem to find a way to get all them things

[Emilee]

LOL. Nightclubs are fun!!!
The under 18 nights are sooo awesome.. *Just thought id say* lol

[Siouxsie]

na i disagree with id cards Its like being back in the war
Like being watched It makes me cringe at the thought of it

[secrets]

Originally posted by ttw
Originally posted by The_Hitman
Absolutely no way on earth. It would be the beginning of the end.

Exactly.

They have it all planned out already, first they bring in the ID cards...next it will be chips inplanted into the back of your hand.

so true. we are now living in a police state and surely it affects our civil liberty.
why do we just sit back and take all this crap.?
this is no longer the land of the free.we are monitered from cradle to the grave.

[Siouxsie]

its called big brother :laugh:

[secrets]

Originally posted by Siouxsie
its called big brother :laugh:

and we all know what happened to BB.:laugh::laugh:

[Siouxsie]

sure do

Big brother is watching you

[Sunny_01]

We all know it is going to happen whether we want it or not which is sad when you think we allegedly live in a free country. Not only is it going to be forced on us but we are going to have to pay for the privelage of having to have one! Our governent had already made its decisions before they announced a national consultation. They have stated that it will not actually be compulsory to carry but it will be to register! but if you dont have one you will struggle to buy a house, get benefits, get a job, passport, insurance, heatlh services etc..... so how can that be not compulsory!!!

How can an ID card to prove you are a British national be of any use when you will be able to apply for one when you have only lived in the country for 3 months!!! come on we are asking for trouble with that!

I am not convinced it will reduce benefit fraud or the threat of terrorism, how do they think that?

I have big issues with the propsed system but no doubt will have to register when they say we do otherwise how do you live your life in the normal way!

[The_Hitman]

Originally posted by Sunny_01

They have stated that it will not actually be compulsory to carry but it will be to register! but if you dont have one you will struggle to buy a house, get benefits, get a job, passport, insurance, heatlh services etc..... so how can that be not compulsory!!!



Appealing to all the naive, weak people who are easily manipulated by politicians lies, dependant on capitalism and have no desire for independance.

Originally posted by Sunny_01

no doubt will have to register when they say we do otherwise how do you live your life in the normal way!



Contact as many people as you can and start a revolution. March on parliament and refuse to let these pathetic little maggots in government destroy our countries greatness, and steal our freedom away from us.

Otherwise, sit back a become their property or leave.

The time for sitting and worrying about it is over. The time for action is NOW.

[Red Moon]

I think it's interesting when people are discussing that the UK has become a police state for Muslims because of the terrorist laws, that this issue could turn the country into a police state for the rest of us.

Information is power and ID cards will just increase the information the state hold on us. They are not content with just knowing how we vote they now want us to carry cards and connect all our records together in one great big database. I want to know what this database will hold about us that they are not going to tell us about. What sort of private information. Will we have a right to see what is held on us?

If anyone has tried to sign on recently the sort of questions the ask are intrusive to say the least. I know they are trying to stop benefit fraud but some of the questions are unnecessary and they make you feel you have committed fraud before they give you a penny. I'm sure all this information will go into the database as well as all the tax records.

It won't be just a card it will soon become a complete data collection system based a round an ID card. That is one thing they won't tell us about until it's too late. After all when did a government ever tell us the truth, especially this one?

[The_Hitman]

This was written by a Sarah Arnott, Computing 28 May 2004


"The government's approach to ID cards is all wrong. That's not to say that the scheme should be scrapped, but founding it on a lot of bombast about terrorism and illegal immigration is missing the point by a mile.

There is no evidence that national ID cards help fight terrorism, and the emphasis on crime and immigration gives the scheme an air of iron-fisted central control at odds with the country's perception of itself as a stroppy citizenry with closely-guarded freedoms.

Whether we need smartcards to combat fraud or not, what we do need is government to live up to its promises about the UK leading the world into the technological future.

That future is the internet. The explosion of online usage in the past five years, even in the face of a bursting dotcom bubble, is only the tip of the iceberg.

But one major piece of the puzzle is still missing. Put simply, for the internet to fulfil its potential to change every aspect of our lives, people logging on need to do so unequivocally as themselves.

The western world stands on the brink of a major change, with every aspect of our lives increasingly taken out of the real world and into cyberspace.

In the real world people can 'see' who you are. The same needs to be true in cyberspace and an obvious role for the government is to create that guaranteed online identity.

No longer is it a question of government as 'Big Brother' invading our privacy, but of it making the most of its unique position at the centre of society to provide a much-needed service.

ID cards should not be about the negative 'freedom from', but the positive 'freedom to'.

With a government-issued biometric ID card, swiped through a reader as I open my browser, I am free to buy, sell, bank, chat, pay my council tax, apply for a job - whatever it is I want to do - without having to remember a hundred passwords or retype my address a hundred times.

And whoever I am dealing with can be sure I am who I say I am, not a fraudster, a hacker or a 45-year-old logging on to a chatroom as a 12 year-old child.

Businesses operating online would be able to rely on customers being who and what they say they are, and customers would be safe in the knowledge that personal and financial details are secure. Such a system would also lay the foundations for future development.

Technology is all about personalisation. At the moment personalised internet content - Amazon knowing me by name, the BBC website remembering I like news and not sport - is done by storing cookies on the hard drive.

But IP cookies are only useful while PCs and laptops are bulky, expensive and largely stationary devices with their own discrete hard drives.

In a world of computing power accessed through generic sockets, such as electricity, with personal preferences, desktop applications and storage capacity held centrally by ISPs, it will need more than a password and my mother's maiden name to give me confidence that my stuff is secure.

Logging on to 'my' internet with a biometric swipe card would solve the problem. But instead of considering the potential of authenticated identity to put the UK at the forefront of the internet revolution, the government is emphasising a dubious link with anti-terrorism, and fighting a rearguard action against accusations of violated privacy and heavy-handed central control.

ID cards are of less value to the police than to banks and online retailers. This is not about Big Brother. This is about free trade. This is not about national security. This is about trust.

The current ID cards debate is standing on its head. We are having a 20th century discussion in a 21st century world. The government needs to catch up, think smart, and help the UK take the lead."

----


After slamming the governments approach to ID cards she goes on to claim TRADE as the justification for it, which begs the question, do you really want to forfeit your freedom and rights for the sake of trade? She works in the computer trade, so see if you can guess why she would support ID cards with their trade benefits.

[secrets]

instead of us just talking we should ALL take to the streets and our apoligy for a parliament:cloud:
this government is pulling us down so much that we no longer have a voice.
we are but lambs to the slaughter and this country will soon be the Soviet Union of Europe.
i hate what has happened to this once proud country.

[Red Moon]

The best start you can make to objecting is by writing to your MP. I have written to mine in the past and got lots of support. If we all did that we might start effecting their thinking.

[Sunny_01]

I have such strong feelings about this that I think I will write to themRed, lets face it they are trying to revoke parts of the Freedom of Information Act just in time for ID cards coming in, coincidence or what!

Hitman I think I will personally March on Tony Blairs constituency ( I live near it) and camp out on the green until they decide to scrap ID cards or I am forced to leave for being smelly!

[Emilee]

well i do think ID cards are impotant to stop underage things like Buying alcohol, cigerettes, etc. But they do annoy me when they ask for one at the cinema. Its just the most annoying thing, and the feeling of being rejected,, lol. I couldnt even get in to see Borat!

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by Emilee
well i do think ID cards are impotant to stop underage things like Buying alcohol, cigerettes, etc. But they do annoy me when they ask for one at the cinema. Its just the most annoying thing, and the feeling of being rejected,, lol. I couldnt even get in to see Borat!

I can understand the frustration in the cinema, the need to have proof of age for buying alcohol and cigarettes, but there is a great difference between a photo card which shows your age which could be issued by a school or a city council than a government ID card system linked to a national database which continuing personal details and a like.

[Sunny_01]

I just think it is creepy that they will hold all that personal information about us, fingerprints, retina scans makes me shiver at the thought. What happened to our rights as individuals.

I can not see any benefits to it other than introducing another line of red tape and clap trap and I am pretty sure it will make things even more difficult for us, for example they will have to take our cards, then get a scan of our eyes to check we match the card we have, how is that giong to make the system easier!

I found this on http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/05/complete_idcard_guide/

There will be a "family" of ID documents that will be phased in, beginning with passports. These will start to appear in three years, at which point it will not be possible to get an old style non-biometric passport. The system's non-compulsory nature therefore hinges on your not actually wanting a passport any more - otherwise you have to give the Passport Office the £73 for the new one. Rollout periods for other members of the family are not covered in the draft bill, but as these are introduced, the old version will similarly cease to exist. Proud owners of old-style perpetual paper UK driving licences, already smug because they don't have to cough up to renew the existing picture licence, can be even smugger. Until such time as Blunkett hunts us all down. The new ten year biometric driving licence will cost around £69, says the Home Office (what do they mean "around"? £68.99?) and the new ten year ID card £35. Which, if they don't get feature-consolidated pretty quickly, is an impressive outlay every ten years. 80 per cent penetration for the new ID is intended to be achieved by 2013. The draft bill includes power to set a date for the card becoming compulsory, but this will not happen until after "the initial stage of the identity card scheme was in place and following a vote in both Houses of Parliament on a detailed report which sets out all the reasons for the proposed move to compulsion." Correct - that does not specify a date.

[Legend]

I've got a fake ID card. I'm 18. :wink:

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by Legend
I've got a fake ID card. I'm 18. :wink:

And the ones we are issued by the government will be just as easy to fake in a few months after there issue. The people that don't want to be found will continue not to want be found and identity fraud will continue at a pace.

The only thing that will be achieved is that the government will hold loads of data on us who haven't done anything wrong. While those that don't want to be traced will create false ID using the cards.

[Z]

Originally posted by Sophii3x
It was important for me to have my card
Becuase when I went to see a 12 film in the cinema they didn't belive me.. and that was last year:tongue:

But I think it's also important to have them so underage youngsters can't get drink, fags and get into nightclubs... But they just seem to find a way to get all them things



Noooooooooooo- erm. Yes. Great idea.




I'd hate to have an ID card. Point? It's just another way for people to look down on others, whether that be racially or otherwise. You realise if we had them, it would be compulsory to have one to get into certain places, like the cinema or whatever. What if you've forgotten it? :yuk:

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by Ziola
You realise if we had them, it would be compulsory to have one to get into certain places, like the cinema or whatever. What if you've forgotten it? :yuk:

You would need them when you are in casualty too, so they know you are entitled to NHS treatment. Think if you forgot it then! You could be dead before you tell them you left it at home on the mantelpiece.

[Red Moon]

ID fingerprints plan under fire
Opposition parties have expressed anger that all fingerprints collected for ID cards will be cross-checked against prints from 900,000 unsolved crimes.
No 10 insists it was always the plan to allow the checks, but the Tories and Lib Dems say they were not aware of it.

In an e-mail to 27,000 signatories to an anti-ID card petition, Tony Blair said the cards would help bring "those guilty of serious crimes" to justice.

The Conservatives and the Lib Dems both oppose plans for identity cards.

Mr Blair was responding to the people who signed the e-petition on the Downing Street website.

The petition stated: "We the undersigned petition the prime minister to scrap the proposed introduction of ID cards. The introduction of ID cards will not prevent terrorism or crime, as is claimed. It will be yet another indirect tax on all law-abiding citizens of the UK."

Mr Blair outlined the benefits that the government and security services believe will come from having ID cards - and the register of biometric details - to combat crime and terrorism.

Unsolved crimes

He wrote: "I believe that the National Identity Register will help police bring those guilty of serious crimes to justice.

"They will be able, for example, to compare the fingerprints found at the scene of some 900,000 unsolved crimes against the information held on the register."

The Home Office said the police would not be allowed to search the register, saying its Identity and Passport Agency would do any database searching.

The PM's official spokesman said that it was always the government's intention that the police could get access to fingerprint data contained on the planned register.

Under the Identity Card Bill, first published in April 2004, approved authorities would be allowed access to "limited parts" of people's details on the register, with the person's consent, so they could check somebody's identity.

The bill also said that details could also be given without consent to police, intelligence agencies, customs and tax authorities and certain government departments for preventing and detecting serious crime, ensuring national security, investigating benefits fraud and protecting Britain's "economic well-being".

'Fishing expedition'

Mr Blair's spokesman said: "If the police ask for fingerprints to be cross-checked, that has always been part of the intention of the bill."

The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats are opposed to the ID scheme, saying it will not prevent illegal immigration or identity fraud and will cost far more than government estimates.

The ID card scheme approved by Parliament means everyone wanting a new passport will need to provide details - such as fingerprints - from next year.

They do not have to get an identity card however, although the government says it intends to bring in a bill if it wins the next election to make identity cards compulsory.

The Police Superintendents Association was pleased with Mr Blair's statement.

Its president, Rick Naylor, said: "The public would want us to do that because it is important to them, particularly the victims of crimes that the crimes are solved.

"We have many, many marks on record that we don't have an owner for. Anything that would help us solve crime would certainly reassure the public."

'Surveillance state'

Lib Dem home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "We were left clearly with the impression that the police simply wouldn't be able to go on fishing expeditions just with their own say so.

"What is so distressing about this latest justification from the prime minister is that he's changed his tune almost week by week in justifying ID cards.

"First it was to do with terrorism, then he dropped that one. Then it was to do with benefit fraud, then he dropped that one.

"The public will rightly feel extremely confused if the government can't make it's own mind why it wants to spend billions of taxpayers money on something which they can't be consistent about."

He said there had been a lack of debate about whether a "surveillance state" was wanted by the public.

For the Conservatives, shadow home office minister Damian Green said: "It flatly goes against all the undertakings the government gave Parliament during the course of the bill.

"Obviously it has huge implications for people's privacy if the authorities are going to be allowed to go on a fishing expedition through the files of innocent people.

"Everyone assumes that fingerprint technology is 100% accurate. And it just isn't, experience tells us that it's not infallible.

"With the vast number of crimes involved, it is guaranteed there are going to be miscarriages of justice if the government goes down this route."

Obstacles

But the Home Office minister responsible for the identity card scheme, Joan Ryan, told the same programme that any check of the identity register would be made by approved Identity and Passport Service staff.

"There won't be any fishing expeditions. That is complete nonsense. That is not what can happen. We've always said one of the real advantages of identity cards would be the fight against crime and protecting the public.

"If police want to check fingerprints found at the scene of the crime that they can't find on their own databases then they will work with IPS staff.

"And surely no-one would suggest that we should put obstacles in the way of police investigating crime and bringing offenders to justice?"

Source: BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6378999.stm)

[tinkerbell]

People dont get fake ID cards just wait till your 18!:dazzler:

[Sunny_01]

I still shudder to think that they will have access to all of our personal information at the touch of a finger. I have always enjoyed the fact that we live in a free country (well almost) and feel that our freedom as individuals is being removed slowly but surely :shrug:

[andybigbro]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I still shudder to think that they will have access to all of our personal information at the touch of a finger. I have always enjoyed the fact that we live in a free country (well almost) and feel that our freedom as individuals is being removed slowly but surely :shrug:

i agree sunny

[rex3]

I think we really dont need them, how is a card gonna stop a terrorist from bombing something. How's it gonna deter, poor people from stealing.

Its just away of keeping track of the population. What were doing, where we are, when we went here and there. If this goes ahead, we will literally turn into drowns in the near future.