Shooting spree at a shopping centre in Germany causes 'multiple deaths'

[Will.]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/17/36825FD200000578-3703705-image-m-12_1469205623140.jpg

An 18-year-old German-Iranian man who complained he had been bullied killed nine people then himself during a gun rampage through Munich yesterday, with police probing claims he lured some of his young victims to their deaths with a promise of free McDonald's food.

A fake Facebook page reportedly told youngsters to gather in a specific fast food restaurant yesterday afternoon for the special offer. At around 5:50pm, Ali Sonboly burst from the restaurant's toilets and began 'killing the children' with a pistol, witnesses said. He then continued his bloody spree in a local shopping centre and on the streets around Munich's Olympic quarter.

A number of 'adolescents' were among the dead and several 'children' were injured, Munich Police President Hubertus Andrae said late last night. Asked whether the Facebook 'game' was linked to the attack, he replied it was 'one part of the comprehensive investigation we are conducting'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703705/Major-police-investigation-way-shots-fired-shopping-centre-Munich.html#ixzz4FEMifaGS

[Will.]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/munich-shooting-active-gunman-loose-8474468.amp?client=safari#

[Will.]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/17/36825D6000000578-0-image-a-1_1469205199678.jpg

[arista]

SkyNewsHD local said possible 15 dead
or injured.


If this is Terrorism
its a bad day for Germany


Will try to learn to edit Posts
smarter than you keep posting
just a Idea for you
Not a Instruction etc

[Will.]

756532022814896128

756532765252694016

[Will.]

Will try to learn to edit Posts
smarter than you keep posting
just a Idea for you
Not a Instruction etc

Yeah good idea, I was on mobile when posting so found it difficult to edit everything.

[arista]

So Far 1 Confirmed dead
10 injured - German Police

[arista]

Yeah good idea, I was on mobile when posting so found it difficult to edit everything.


OK if on mobile ignore Edits
just keep posting
as its harder, I know

[Pete.]

RIP :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

If this is a terrorism situation this wont play well with Merkels "all welcome" stance

[arista]

Well Done BBCNewsHD
for once not going to bbc1 news 6PM

Learn this BBC

[Will.]

RIP to those who have lost their life.

It's heart breaking that this is becoming a daily thing.

[arista]

I hope its not 15 dead
thats one report
Not Confirmed

[Will.]

BBC news saying situation is still live and gunman seem to still be on the lose.

[arista]

RIP to those who have lost their life.

It's heart breaking that this is becoming a daily thing.


No Will
its got to Stop
I want more Police Group Snipers
on 24/7 shifts

[Vicky.]

I am sad to say, these things no longer shock me. I am THAT desensitized to it now that its just a case of waking up and wondering where will be hit that day.

[Vanessa]

:eek:

[Will.]

No Will
its got to Stop
I want more Police Group Snipers
on 24/7 shifts

Yeah something needs to be done.

[GiRTh]

Terrible tragedy.

[arista]

Will
if Confirmed on All News
its a Terrorist
please add to your Title.


I hate this
on the London bombing, years back
BBC news said it was gas explosion
but SkyNews Said Terrorist Bombers

[Will.]

Will
if Confirmed on All News
its a Terrorist
please add to your Title.


I hate this
on the London bombing, years back
BBC news said it was gas explosion
but SkyNews Said Terrorist Bombers

Done.

[Kizzy]

I really hope the estimate of 15 is wrong :(

There is armed response... we've always had that, do I want ordinary plod to be armed? NO.

[arista]

I am sad to say, these things no longer shock me. I am THAT desensitized to it now that its just a case of waking up and wondering where will be hit that day.


Thats a fair View


Only ITV1 Regional News
is the escape
and some of bbc1 main 6PM news

[arista]

I really hope the estimate of 15 is wrong :(

There is armed response... we've always had that, do I want ordinary plod to be armed? NO.

The Problem is it must be Double Checked
Stop Hiding it - Germany Police

[Will.]

Germany newspaper says:
Multiple deaths
staff still hiding out in shopping centre

[arista]

LBC reports


30 Shots FIRED?


Feck Me Germany
Name it

[arista]

Germany newspaper says:
Multiple deaths
staff still hiding out in shopping centre

Yes thats Gone out to USA Live News now

[Will.]

Yes thats Gone out to USA Live News now

yeah.

[Samm]

RIP :(

[Will.]

Munich police have said multiple deaths and injuries.

Believe to be dealing with more than 1 shooter.

[Will.]

According to a witness a shooter went into a cafe and started shooting and escaped via underground.

[Vanessa]

My cousin lives in Germany. Now i'm worried :bawling:

[Pete.]

Apparently there's been a second shooting outside a metro station

[arista]

Police say more than one Shooter?

Name This then
Fecking terrorists again

[arista]

My cousin lives in Germany. Now i'm worried :bawling:


Find out if in the Massive Shopping Zone
if not
all is good

[Vanessa]

Find out if in the Massive Shopping Zone
if not
all is good

Just spoke to her, she's fine :hee:

[Northern Monkey]

And here we go again.....


Merkels fault.


When will the EU learn?

[Northern Monkey]

Just spoke to her, she's fine :hee:

That's good

[arista]

Just spoke to her, she's fine :hee:

some good news

[arista]

reports it started in a McDonalds

[lewis111]

Sky news confirms there's been a second shooting at a metro station

[Vanessa]

:o

[Will.]

BREAKING: Reports of second shooting at station

[arista]

And here we go again.....


Merkels fault.


When will the EU learn?


we have to wait for German Police
to say the "T" word
Even though its been leaked all over USA

[Will.]

756543477270196224

[Vanessa]

D:

[arista]

Saturdays front pages will have this


New Update 3 confirmed Dead , now , so far

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/18/article-3703705-3682A00A00000578-358_964x495.jpg

[Vanessa]

These are dangerous times we live in :shocked:

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/18/3682A12E00000578-3703705-The_video_shows_him_outside_a_McDonald_s_directly_ outside_the_sh-a-51_1469209426392.jpg

First Shootings

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Blasting Mrs Merkel’s decision to “have literally opened up the door unconditionally” to Syrian refugees last year “without being able to securely check anybody” Mr Farage said Europe was now at greater risk of terror attacks."
Thu, Jun 16, 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/680545/Nigel-Farage-dismisses-racism-claims-over-new-EU-referendum-poster

[arista]

These are dangerous times we live in :shocked:


Should That German Leader let So many in from
Syria?

[Greg!]

RIP to all who have died. Hope they catch/kill the shooters asap

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/18/3682A0F200000578-3703705-image-a-55_1469209736262.jpg
Move it Lads
Get Them

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/18/3682864000000578-3703705-The_shopping_centre_is_next_to_the_Munich_Olympic_ Stadium_where_-a-48_1469209425516.jpg

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/18/3682A38000000578-3703705-image-a-56_1469209760861.jpg


hope he did not get away

[arista]

good on the taxi drivers
not taking ANY away
in case its one of the shooters

[lewis111]

3 shooters, all still on the run

How did the police manage to miss them twice? Obviously it's a very hard and scary job and moment for them but the shooters are on foot

[arista]

3 shooters, all still on the run

How did the police manage to miss them twice? Obviously it's a very hard and scary job and moment for them but the shooters are on foot


Pre Planned
ran like public past the cops
Utter Confusion

[lewis111]

Just saw a video from inside the shopping centre (nothing graphic) but much more than 30 gun shots heard

I fear the death toll is going to be very high

So tragic and scary RIP

[Pete.]

Is this a confirmed terror attack :suspect:

[Will.]

At least 6 dead now.

[arista]

Is this a confirmed terror attack :suspect:


Only in USA.


Sooner or later German Police
will update this as Deadly terrorists
that fecking got away?

[Will.]

Is this a confirmed terror attack :suspect:

Aristo says it is, I'm not sure.

[arista]

Aristo says it is, I'm not sure.


Yes Because of CNNHD USA
and FoxNewsHD

[Jack_]

Just saw a video from inside the shopping centre (nothing graphic) but much more than 30 gun shots heard

I fear the death toll is going to be very high

So tragic and scary RIP

If that's the one being shared by a few people on Twitter it's actually from a training exercise carried out in the Trafford Centre

[Ninastar]

Things seem to be getting worse and worse. I fear this will happen every other week. What will it take for us to control things again?

R.I.P to all the victims. I fear the numbers will be high (again). Lets hope I'm wrong

[arista]

Massive Zone
so hard to contain 3 or more shooters
that Shot
then looked like public?


LBC : said Terror Attack
well done London News

[Will.]

Sky said staff in shopping centre are still locked in.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/22/19/3682BED400000578-3703705-image-m-68_1469210732080.jpg
One of the First Shooters who used a hand gun

[arista]

At last
Police Germany
Suspected Terrorist Assault

[Crimson Dynamo]

6 dead

3 at large with rifles

source LBC 19.57z

[arista]

Yes the 3 Terrorist Killers
spread out
their own Evil plan


And So far the 3 are not in custody
or Shot

[Will.]

Shooters haven't been caught.

[Greg!]

Apparently the gunman shouted "**** foreigners" according to daily mirror Twitter

[Rob!]

It's going to be our turn soon isn't it?

[Will.]

Apparently one of the gunmen has hot himself in the head.

[_Tom_]

Apparently the gunman shouted "**** foreigners" according to daily mirror Twitter

Not true, the person filming it said that, not the gunman.

The Daily Mirror is a far left tabloid that is not credible at all.

[Greg!]

Not true, the person filming it said that, not the gunman.

The Daily Mirror is a far left tabloid that is not credible at all.

I wouldn't describe them as far left but ok

[MB.]

If there's anything I like to associate with the Mirror, it's communism

[Alf]

It's 5 year's today since the Breivik attack.

[Alf]

Copycat?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its time to admit that multiculturalism is dead

[Will.]

At least 9 dead.

[Kizzy]

Not true, the person filming it said that, not the gunman.

The Daily Mirror is a far left tabloid that is not credible at all.

Far left?... :/

[Jack_]

If there's anything I like to associate with the Mirror, it's communism

:joker:

If The Mirror is far left what does that make Sky News?

[empire]

oh dear mama merkel stay's silent, her dreams have been crushed.

[arista]

Munich Gunman Was German Iranian, Aged 18

["The perpetrator was an 18-year-old
German-Iranian from Munich,"
police chief Hubertus Andrae
told reporters after the massacre.
He had lived in the city "for a while",
Mr Andrae said.]

http://news.sky.com/story/munich-gunman-was-german-iranian-aged-18-10510059

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/23/02/article-3703705-368535D600000578-168_964x562.jpg

[Ten people, including the Evil gunman,
were killed.]

[arista]

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/536x302/3c9d722329fb2f2ae028d9da49041ee65cc8a1c2942c153054 a558fbe84c6ad8_3749693.jpg?20160722224554

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/536x302/a299eed87d0b9363976a0530308c27ec2db88df8f92c94a37e 93c9e1d1919e61_3749713.jpg?20160722231008

[arista]

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/536x302/edeb2485baf1a29c769c120116aaeb4e8817ce64bf93c631a7 c7ec397d6c85f7_3749673.jpg?20160722221925

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/536x302/c911158b5bc809c5fdc19ac12d78dbf6e89cf3f94f5c6cbd2b 707026b924d954_3749688.jpg?20160722223953

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/536x302/886938497c69d2fa41d4b5b3055f17cf90a526c26ba2f31c3a cb777f2cfe3454_3749716.jpg?20160722231935

[Ammi]

Its time to admit that multiculturalism is dead

..well that would just be saying, yes extreme terrorists we embrace you and give you exactly what you want which is to instil suspicion and hate in us all ..there could never be a time more than recent times and more than now to show the 'life' and the strength of multi-culture and to be together against hate and against death...

[arista]

I am Getting angry
He is not a German Iranian
he was a Iranian that had lived in
that German City
for 2 Years
that is ALL.

After Killing all in front of him
he the put the Gun to himself.
The Punk Is Dead.
9 Public are dead , so far
Its not Good For McDonalds in Germany.

There is a Major Difference in Germany
that 18 year old could buy a Gun fast.

He was Terrorist
who had only lived
there in that City
for 2 years
Germany can Spin It All They Want,
they are Fully Armed Police,
but because this
18 year old fired his Hand Gun
fast, he had to Die.

The Panic
confused the Police
and all sorts of Reports went out
on Worldwide Media.

The Video UnCut Shows
that Punk firing Fast.
Terrorism is Firing a
weapon at loads of people

I thank LBC Live 7AM- 8AM Today
Andrew Castle Show,
with a British Army Bomb Man Chris Live

Also SkyNewsHD, France24, CNN HD.


http://news.sky.com/story/live-shots-fired-at-german-shopping-centre-10509759

[arista]

It's going to be our turn soon isn't it?


It Could Be
But There are now more special Police Cars
with Special Guns locked inside them


Its important to phone the UK Police Fast
Then start your Video On a Phone off
so long as you are not near the Shooter or Shooters

[Nicky91]

/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc

this song is for all the victims of terrorism, terrorism is just wrong, Where has the love gone these days, it makes me sad :(

[arista]

this song is for all the victims of terrorism, terrorism is just wrong, Where has the love gone these days, it makes me sad :(


Yes Good Track,

[Nicky91]

Yes Good Track,

thank you, and all this news about terrorism makes me sad :(

[arista]

thank you, and all this news about terrorism makes me sad :(



Yes There Top track after 9/11
should be Played in Every School
for 13 and over etc.

[Nicky91]

Yes There Top track after 9/11
should be Played in Every School
for 13 and over etc.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

respect for you arista

[arista]

:joker:

If The Mirror is far left what does that make Sky News?


Impartial

also Jack
Free ONLINE on YouTube
in Full HD 1080P


2nd to none

[Livia]

The is a sad by-product of making a country multi-cultural without asking the indigenous population, the voters and the tax-payers, if that's what they want. The East End of London used to be a vibrant, multicultural place... now the indigenous population has all but left and incomers outnumber the locals. It's an exercise that's gone too far... and it's very convenient for IS, they're calling for Muslims all around the world to carry out these atrocities, and some Muslims - we don't know which ones until people are lying dead in the street - are complying nicely. Yet still some people are trying to deny the fact that IS is leading these attacks. I've heard today that this gunman was "acting alone". So where did the firearm come from? And the ammo?

In the last few weeks in Germany, thousands of new members have signed up to organisations on the far right. Find out about Alternative für Deutschland, See what they're fighting against and how many people are joining their ranks. It terrifies me... but it is just another by-product of multiculturalism gone too far and for that, we can thank the politicians and the good people of the left who've demanded we open our doors to anyone who wants to come.

[arista]

"but it is just another by-product of multiculturalism gone too far and for that, we can thank the politicians and the good people of the left who've demanded we open our doors to anyone who wants to come. "


Yes Livia
Bang on Right

[kirklancaster]

The is a sad by-product of making a country multi-cultural without asking the indigenous population, the voters and the tax-payers, if that's what they want. The East End of London used to be a vibrant, multicultural place... now the indigenous population has all but left and incomers outnumber the locals. It's an exercise that's gone too far... and it's very convenient for IS, they're calling for Muslims all around the world to carry out these atrocities, and some Muslims - we don't know which ones until people are lying dead in the street - are complying nicely. Yet still some people are trying to deny the fact that IS is leading these attacks. I've heard today that this gunman was "acting alone". So where did the firearm come from? And the ammo?

In the last few weeks in Germany, thousands of new members have signed up to organisations on the far right. Find out about Alternative für Deutschland, See what they're fighting against and how many people are joining their ranks. It terrifies me... but it is just another by-product of multiculturalism gone too far and for that, we can thank the politicians and the good people of the left who've demanded we open our doors to anyone who wants to come.

:worship::worship::worship: You are BACK.

[arista]

This Iranian used Facebook
to get the public to go to McDonalds.

Then shooting them fast
using a Hand Gun Glock Pistol
300 rounds Stock
he bought from ALBANIANS
many are now DEAD


Thank You LBC LIVE

[Ammi]

A teen gunman who killed nine people and injured 27 others in Munich had no links to Islamic State, police have said.

In a news conference on Saturday morning, the attack was described as a "classic shooting rampage" and not terrorism.


Investigators said the gunman, who was born and raised in Munich, was armed with a 9mm Glock pistol and had 300 bullets in a backpack.

The authorities also revealed he had received psychiatric care and been treated for depression.

Prosecutors said he did not have a criminal record.

Seven of the victims were teenagers, police said.

Of the 27 hurt, 10 were seriously injured.

During the attack, police said they received more than 4,000 emergency calls.

It is understood the attacker later shot himself in the head, taking his own life.

His body was found on a side street near the mall, about two-and-a-half hours after the assault.

Anti-terror robots examined the backpack for explosives

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/munich-teen-gunman-had-no-links-police-100700623.html

[user104658]

Latest news seems to be that this was a lone teenager, westernised, raised mainly in Germany, with a history of mental health problems and no links at all to ISIS or any other terrorist group.

"Multiculturalism gone wrong", indeed. Seems to be the latest buzz phrase to legitimise quite blatant xenophobia. Oh boo Hoo boo Hoo people don't like it when I use that word!!

Well... Sozzles guyz... Bleating things like "multiculturalism gone wrong", "multiculturalism has failed" is the VERY definition of xenophobia. It's just hiding behind a fancier, trendy way of saying "foreigners go home!".

And then latching onto every incident to back up that thinking LONG before the full facts have come to light. But of course, from the very same who are mocking and sneering at others for passing comment before "all of the facts are known".

Once again - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and deeply disturbing. It seems like more and more people are swayed to this arse-backwards way of thinking every day.

[Tom4784]

A teen gunman who killed nine people and injured 27 others in Munich had no links to Islamic State, police have said.

In a news conference on Saturday morning, the attack was described as a "classic shooting rampage" and not terrorism.


Investigators said the gunman, who was born and raised in Munich, was armed with a 9mm Glock pistol and had 300 bullets in a backpack.

The authorities also revealed he had received psychiatric care and been treated for depression.

Prosecutors said he did not have a criminal record.

Seven of the victims were teenagers, police said.

Of the 27 hurt, 10 were seriously injured.

During the attack, police said they received more than 4,000 emergency calls.

It is understood the attacker later shot himself in the head, taking his own life.

His body was found on a side street near the mall, about two-and-a-half hours after the assault.

Anti-terror robots examined the backpack for explosives

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/munich-teen-gunman-had-no-links-police-100700623.html

:sad:

It's rather disturbing how people are using this to push their anti-multiculturalism agendas. Are we going to get blanket statements about millions of innocent people every time someone with brown skin commits a terrible act? Funny how people don't make similar comments when white teenagers in America shoots up schools.

[Kizzy]

Latest news seems to be that this was a lone teenager, westernised, raised mainly in Germany, with a history of mental health problems and no links at all to ISIS or any other terrorist group.

"Multiculturalism gone wrong", indeed. Seems to be the latest buzz phrase to legitimise quite blatant xenophobia. Oh boo Hoo boo Hoo people don't like it when I use that word!!

Well... Sozzles guyz... Bleating things like "multiculturalism gone wrong", "multiculturalism has failed" is the VERY definition of xenophobia. It's just hiding behind a fancier, trendy way of saying "foreigners go home!".

And then latching onto every incident to back up that thinking LONG before the full facts have come to light. But of course, from the very same who are mocking and sneering at others for passing comment before "all of the facts are known".

Once again - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and deeply disturbing. It seems like more and more people are swayed to this arse-backwards way of thinking every day.

:worship:

Thank you for saying what I was feeling, this is a byproduct of the harassed, harangued and marginalised. The transcript of the conversation before the shooting is testament to the abuse he himself explained had been ongoing for 7yrs.

So if anyone's wondering if my heart is bleeding for him...yes, yes it is.
It bleeds for anyone affected by hate, the shooter, the victims even the ones who advocate far right extremist propaganda as suitable reading material.

[user104658]

Find out about Alternative für Deutschland, See what they're fighting against and how many people are joining their ranks. It terrifies me... but it is just another by-product of multiculturalism gone too far and for that, we can thank the politicians and the good people of the left who've demanded we open our doors to anyone who wants to come.

Are you seriously legitimising and justifying far-right political extremism? I don't even know how to respond to that... It's almost beyond comprehension, Livia.

I know you're not condoning these groups but when it comes to the horrific mindsets that spark their creation, you are passing the buck from the individuals involved onto "the current government" or worse still, onto the "foreign folks" to whom they have taken offense. Setting Mr Godwin aside here, and entirely seriously, this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that was passed around and allowed the Nazi party to rise. Utterly flabbergasted,and I can't imagine for a second that you would make the same excuses for them, or state that their rise was "the consequence of allowing Jews into Germany without asking the population what they wanted first".

Like I said I don't think this is Godwin territory. It is exactly what happened, and an exact parallel.

[Livia]

Are you seriously legitimising and justifying far-right political extremism? I don't even know how to respond to that... It's almost beyond comprehension, Livia.

I know you're not condoning these groups but when it comes to the horrific mindsets that spark their creation, you are passing the buck from the individuals involved onto "the current government" or worse still, onto the "foreign folks" to whom they have taken offense. Setting Mr Godwin aside here, and entirely seriously, this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that was passed around and allowed the Nazi party to rise. Utterly flabbergasted,and I can't imagine for a second that you would make the same excuses for them, or state that their rise was "the consequence of allowing Jews into Germany without asking the population what they wanted first".

Like I said I don't think this is Godwin territory. It is exactly what happened, and an exact parallel.

You saw that I said it terrified me, right? You DID see that? I really don't need you to explain Nazism to me.

I was waiting for the denials that multiculturalism is to blame for this, for allowing extremists to thrive, to do the dirty work of IS in the West. And I knew exactly from whom the denials would come.

Your trite and silly comment "I can't imagine for a second that you would make the same excuses for them, or state that their rise was "the consequence of allowing Jews into Germany without asking the population what they wanted first". " is quite meaningless here. The Jews weren't waging war against the west at the time, they weren't blowing up civilians, they weren't driving trucks over civilians or opening fire in shopping malls. And you suggesting there is ANY similarity between the Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust with the situation now is insulting and small-minded.

I hope to God no one you love is ever harmed by an Islamic terrorist so that you can continue to be this blinkered forever.

[user104658]

You saw that I said it terrified me, right? You DID see that? I really don't need you to explain Nazism to me.

I was waiting for the denials that multiculturalism is to blame for this, for allowing extremists to thrive, to do the dirty work of IS in the West. And I knew exactly from whom the denials would come.

Your trite and silly comment "I can't imagine for a second that you would make the same excuses for them, or state that their rise was "the consequence of allowing Jews into Germany without asking the population what they wanted first". " is quite meaningless here. The Jews weren't waging war against the west at the time, they weren't blowing up civilians, they weren't driving trucks over civilians or opening fire in shopping malls. And you suggesting there is ANY similarity between the Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust with the situation now is insulting and small-minded.

I hope to God no one you love is ever harmed by an Islamic terrorist so that you can continue to be this blinkered forever.
I did see that which is why I said that I know you're not condoning it - but you are justifying it. You're straight up saying that there are valid explanations for far-right fascist groups to form and that those groups and their actions are the fault of "the other" and not those individuals themselves.

And no, the marginalised Jewish people pre-ww2 hadn't turned to extremism before it hit boiling point. What had happened, though, was that they had been demonised and made monsters by propaganda, made "different", made "other" and dehumanised to justify their removal in the minds of perfectly normal, average German people. In reality the Jewish people were not destroying anything or harming anyone, but the atrocities that followed were allowed to happen by a population who had been convinced that they were. This is what happens when multiculturalism is NOT embraced.

Or home grown terrorists. They are born of rejection and disenfranchisement, a failure of integration, because people who "don't believe in multiculturalism" will never be willing to accept that integration. It's conversion, or leave. The "multiculturalism has failed" thinly-veiled "get foreign Johnny out of my country" rhetoric, further division, further rejection, will only INCREASE the problem exponentially. Full stop.

[Crimson Dynamo]

oh wait this one shooter was born in Germany so phew, looks like multiculturalism with no limit or thought, ghettoisation etc is ok after all - praise be

That allowing a middle eastern backward superstition that is at complete odds with western values and society to flourish has succeeded

the axe guy?, what axe guy, the nice guy, who?

thank allah that this chap seems to be just another nutter but a home grown one

But wait again the latest BBC report states "He harboured radical right-wing views and said his attack was aimed at stopping Muslim immigration to Europe."

oop

how are we going to unpack this one?

[user104658]

oh wait this one shooter was born in Germany so phew, looks like multiculturalism with no limit or thought, ghettoisation etc is ok after all - praise be

That allowing a middle eastern backward superstition that is at complete odds with western values and society to flourish has succeeded

the axe guy?, what axe guy, the nice guy, who?

thank allah that this chap seems to be just another nutter but a home grown one

But wait again the latest BBC report states "He harboured radical right-wing views and said his attack was aimed at stopping Muslim immigration to Europe."

oop

how are we going to unpack this one?

A very well thought out and impeccably reasoned gabble of ****e there LT. There is an obvious and rational middle-ground somewhere between "complete free movement" and "ZoMGz MULTICULTURALISM HAZ FAILED KICK DEM ALL OUT TERRORISM TERORESTS PLZ HALP!". And *I* get mocked with jibes like "the sky is falling"? :facepalm: Stop and listen to yourself for a second.

[Kizzy]

I did see that which is why I said that I know you're not condoning it - but you are justifying it. You're straight up saying that there are valid explanations for far-right fascist groups to form and that those groups and their actions are the fault of "the other" and not those individuals themselves.

And no, the marginalised Jewish people pre-ww2 hadn't turned to extremism before it hit boiling point. What had happened, though, was that they had been demonised and made monsters by propaganda, made "different", made "other" and dehumanised to justify their removal in the minds of perfectly normal, average German people. In reality the Jewish people were not destroying anything or harming anyone, but the atrocities that followed were allowed to happen by a population who had been convinced that they were. This is what happens when multiculturalism is NOT embraced.

Or home grown terrorists. They are born of rejection and disenfranchisement, a failure of integration, because people who "don't believe in multiculturalism" will never be willing to accept that integration. It's conversion, or leave. The "multiculturalism has failed" thinly-veiled "get foreign Johnny out of my country" rhetoric, further division, further rejection, will only INCREASE the problem exponentially. Full stop.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

A very well thought out and impeccably reasoned gabble of ****e there LT. There is an obvious and rational middle-ground somewhere between "complete free movement" and "ZoMGz MULTICULTURALISM HAZ FAILED KICK DEM ALL OUT TERRORISM TERORESTS PLZ HALP!". And *I* get mocked with jibes like "the sky is falling"? :facepalm: Stop and listen to yourself for a second.

The problem is TS there are two worlds we inhabit, the ideal world and the real world. People on the left love to imagine and talk about the ideal world and slap each other on the back about it

meanwhile the real world goes on and some other people have to actually deal with it.

Its not pretty, fair or palatable but its real and it needs dealing with.

[Crimson Dynamo]

January 7, 2015 | Charlie Hebdo, Paris
Saïd and Chérif Kouachi shoot dead 12 people at the offices of satirical magazine. Islamist terrorist group Al-Qaeda's branch in Yemen claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 8, 2015 | Jewish supermarket, Paris
Amedy Coulibaly killed a policewoman before entering a Jewish supermarket in Paris where he shot dead four others. Both Coulibaly and the Kouachi brothers were later shot dead by police. Coulibaly had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and was a close friend of Charlie Hebdo gunmen Saïd Kouachi and Chérif Kouachi, whom he had met in jail in 2005

June 26, 2015 | Sousse, Tunisia
Armed gunman Seifeddine Rezgui Yacoubi went on a shooting rampage at the tourist resort of Port El Kantaoui, killing 38 people – 30 of whom were British. Yacoubi, who had pledged allegiance to Islamic State, was killed by security forces during an exchange of fire.

June 26, 2015 | Chemical factory, near Grenoble
One man was beheaded and several others were injured. Yassine Salhi – who had links to Islamic State – was arrested and later committed suicide in prison.

August 21, 2015 | Amsterdam to Paris train
Three off-duty American marines overpowered an armed gunman on a high-speed train from Amsterdam to Paris. The suspect – Moroccan man Ayoub El Khazzani – was later arrested in Arras, northern France. No group officially claimed responsibility, but El Khazzani was thought to have been radicalised via online extremism.

November 13, 2015 | Restaurants, Bataclan and Stade de France, Paris
Scores were killed as men armed with Kalashnikovs and grenades carried out a series of attacks at restaurants, a concert hall and outside the Stade de France in Paris. Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack

January 7, 2016 | Istanbul suicide bombing
This was the first major attack to hit Istanbul in its popular Sultanahmet district, close to the Hagia Sophia. The attacker was Nabil Fadli, a Syrian member of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

March 19, 2016 | Istanbul blast on popular street
5 dead, 36 injured. A suicide bomber hit İstiklal Avenue, one of the city's most popular shopping streets filled with cafes, restaurants and foreign consulates. Officials said Isil was to blame.

March 22, 2016 | Brussels attacks
Belgian capital is hit by attacks on Zaventem airport and the city's metro system, near a station close to European Union buildings. The perpetrators belonged to a terrorist cell which had been involved in the November 2015 Paris attacks, with links to Islamic State.

June 7, 2016 | Car bomb in Istanbul
11 dead, dozens injured. A rush-hour car bomb ripped through central Istanbul, killing 11 people and wounding dozens more in one of the worst terror attacks on the city for nearly a decade. Kurdish militant group TAK claimed responsibility

June 13, 2016 | Residential home, near Paris
Police officer Jean-Baptiste Salvaing and his wife, police secretary Jessica Schneider, were stabbed to death inside their home near Paris by a man who said he had pledged allegiance to Islamic State.

June 28, 2016 | Suicide bombing at Istanbul airport
41 dead, 239 injured. Three attackers detonated explosives after opening fire at Ataturk Airport. The attackers, who arrived by taxi, were reportedly trying to pass through the x-ray machines when stopped by security officials, which started a gun fight. The suicide bombs caused chaos and carnage, killing an estimated 41 people and injuring at least 239. Islamic State blamed.

July 14, 2016 | Promenade des Anglais, Nice
Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel killed 84 and injured scores more when he drove a lorry into a crowd of Bastille Day revellers in Nice. Thought to have links with Islamic State.

July 22 | Munich
Police believe three gunmen dressed in black opened fire at locations across the city resulting in 'multiple' deaths. It is not yet known who is responsible for the attacks.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Munich terrorist inspired by far right terrorist Anders Breivik


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/23/munich-shooting-german-iranian-gunman-targeted-children-outside/amp/?client=safari#

[Crimson Dynamo]

Munich terrorist inspired by far right terrorist Anders Breivik


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/23/munich-shooting-german-iranian-gunman-targeted-children-outside/amp/?client=safari#

this conjecture at the moment

[user104658]

The problem is TS there are two worlds we inhabit, the ideal world and the real world. People on the left love to imagine and talk about the ideal world and slap each other on the back about it

meanwhile the real world goes on and some other people have to actually deal with it.

Its not pretty, fair or palatable but its real and it needs dealing with.

Ahh so in this version of the truth... having concerns about the economic future of a country after a frankly barmy act of democratic self harm, is "extreme sky-is-falling doomsaying hysteria lol lol lol"...

...but wailing that "Multi-culturalism haz faileded!!!" and promoting division and exclusion of all "others!" on the grounds that a few mostly isolated incidents of violence, mainly carried out by westernised individuals who have been alienated and radicalised rather than recent immigrants... is the level-headed real world that has to be dealt with.

Is that about right?

Sounds entirely plausible to me. No really, carry on, it's all bound to end well. I've always said that the best way to tackle alienation is through outright rejection and exclusion. I mean it only stands to reason, in this tough real world. Economy shmeconomy! There's a MUSLIM over there! :fist:

[Tom4784]

Yes we must wait for more evidence before we even THINK of suggesting that a white person may have inspired this crime, it's so annoying that this wasn't a Islamic act of terrorism so we could all throw out generalisations about millions of people and display questionable opinions without the burden of proof!

[Kizzy]

You saw that I said it terrified me, right? You DID see that? I really don't need you to explain Nazism to me.

I was waiting for the denials that multiculturalism is to blame for this, for allowing extremists to thrive, to do the dirty work of IS in the West. And I knew exactly from whom the denials would come.

Your trite and silly comment "I can't imagine for a second that you would make the same excuses for them, or state that their rise was "the consequence of allowing Jews into Germany without asking the population what they wanted first". " is quite meaningless here. The Jews weren't waging war against the west at the time, they weren't blowing up civilians, they weren't driving trucks over civilians or opening fire in shopping malls. And you suggesting there is ANY similarity between the Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust with the situation now is insulting and small-minded.

I hope to God no one you love is ever harmed by an Islamic terrorist so that you can continue to be this blinkered forever.

In among the mocking comments and the stench of condescension can you see how you have taken his comments out of context?

It is ironic how the words of Baroness Warsi ( whom I know you are fond) have been compounded here in this thread,it is this drip drip rejection and marginalisation which culminated in the events seen in Germany as the actions of this young man.

And it is the attitudes of the 'respectable racists' who I would say impacted on this young man to such an extent that has actions were the culmination of his 7yrs of torment.

If it seems I'm justifying what he did let it be known in the strongest terms I am not, I can see however how the human spirit can be crushed under the weight of being seen as an outsider in the country you love and were raised in.

There are comparisons to be drawn between nazism in it's infancy and the treatment of western born persons of other faiths and cultures as well as immigrants , it can not and should not be denied.

[Jack_]

Wait so he might not have links to IS?!?! Muslims aren't to blame?! I wonder if this is still terrorism then? :conf: or is it terrorism cause he's a brown person and only brown people can be terrorists? Which is the main factor Muslim or brown idk?!?! Cause Jo Cox's white far right killer wasn't a terrorist even though he was a terrorist but it was just mental illness so what's it to be here?!?!?!

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, fume, be confused or what at the anti-multiculturalism sentiments anymore. The worst thing is you are playing right into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists. Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want? They don't want normal, civilised, law-abiding Muslims to be accepted by you and me. They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us. The entire point of terrorism is to strike fear into people and make them question the society they live in and the people around them. They want you to assume that all Muslims are to blame for this and they must all be sent home immediately because these people don't want them to be a part of Westernised culture at all!

You are giving them exactly what they want. Make people feel isolated, marginalised, criticised and then give them an outlet from which to vent their festering hatred. This is precisely how people are radicalised. We are already part of the problem and now lots seem to want to exacerbate said problem by giving them exactly the response that they want.

By letting them win, you are making the problem worse.

[user104658]

Yes we must wait for more evidence before we even THINK of suggesting that a white person may have inspired this crime, it's so annoying that this wasn't a Islamic act of terrorism so we could all throw out generalisations about millions of people and display questionable opinions without the burden of proof!

Doesn't matter how much proof there is, if a signed confession comes to light written by the boy himself outlining exactly why he did it, and it has nothing to do with "a failure of multiculturalism" (and can't be twisted as such), the people who have already decided and stated their opinions on the causes of this attack and what it "means for the world" will most likely simply never post about it again.

[Kizzy]

January 7, 2015 | Charlie Hebdo, Paris
Saïd and Chérif Kouachi shoot dead 12 people at the offices of satirical magazine. Islamist terrorist group Al-Qaeda's branch in Yemen claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 8, 2015 | Jewish supermarket, Paris
Amedy Coulibaly killed a policewoman before entering a Jewish supermarket in Paris where he shot dead four others. Both Coulibaly and the Kouachi brothers were later shot dead by police. Coulibaly had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and was a close friend of Charlie Hebdo gunmen Saïd Kouachi and Chérif Kouachi, whom he had met in jail in 2005

June 26, 2015 | Sousse, Tunisia
Armed gunman Seifeddine Rezgui Yacoubi went on a shooting rampage at the tourist resort of Port El Kantaoui, killing 38 people – 30 of whom were British. Yacoubi, who had pledged allegiance to Islamic State, was killed by security forces during an exchange of fire.

June 26, 2015 | Chemical factory, near Grenoble
One man was beheaded and several others were injured. Yassine Salhi – who had links to Islamic State – was arrested and later committed suicide in prison.

August 21, 2015 | Amsterdam to Paris train
Three off-duty American marines overpowered an armed gunman on a high-speed train from Amsterdam to Paris. The suspect – Moroccan man Ayoub El Khazzani – was later arrested in Arras, northern France. No group officially claimed responsibility, but El Khazzani was thought to have been radicalised via online extremism.

November 13, 2015 | Restaurants, Bataclan and Stade de France, Paris
Scores were killed as men armed with Kalashnikovs and grenades carried out a series of attacks at restaurants, a concert hall and outside the Stade de France in Paris. Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack

January 7, 2016 | Istanbul suicide bombing
This was the first major attack to hit Istanbul in its popular Sultanahmet district, close to the Hagia Sophia. The attacker was Nabil Fadli, a Syrian member of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

March 19, 2016 | Istanbul blast on popular street
5 dead, 36 injured. A suicide bomber hit İstiklal Avenue, one of the city's most popular shopping streets filled with cafes, restaurants and foreign consulates. Officials said Isil was to blame.

March 22, 2016 | Brussels attacks
Belgian capital is hit by attacks on Zaventem airport and the city's metro system, near a station close to European Union buildings. The perpetrators belonged to a terrorist cell which had been involved in the November 2015 Paris attacks, with links to Islamic State.

June 7, 2016 | Car bomb in Istanbul
11 dead, dozens injured. A rush-hour car bomb ripped through central Istanbul, killing 11 people and wounding dozens more in one of the worst terror attacks on the city for nearly a decade. Kurdish militant group TAK claimed responsibility

June 13, 2016 | Residential home, near Paris
Police officer Jean-Baptiste Salvaing and his wife, police secretary Jessica Schneider, were stabbed to death inside their home near Paris by a man who said he had pledged allegiance to Islamic State.

June 28, 2016 | Suicide bombing at Istanbul airport
41 dead, 239 injured. Three attackers detonated explosives after opening fire at Ataturk Airport. The attackers, who arrived by taxi, were reportedly trying to pass through the x-ray machines when stopped by security officials, which started a gun fight. The suicide bombs caused chaos and carnage, killing an estimated 41 people and injuring at least 239. Islamic State blamed.

July 14, 2016 | Promenade des Anglais, Nice
Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel killed 84 and injured scores more when he drove a lorry into a crowd of Bastille Day revellers in Nice. Thought to have links with Islamic State.

July 22 | Munich
Police believe three gunmen dressed in black opened fire at locations across the city resulting in 'multiple' deaths. It is not yet known who is responsible for the attacks.

Why have you linked this to every other terrorist attack?

Are you really that desperate to link this to IS, with no other evidence than your rigid construct of who has recently done so :/

[MB.]

Wait so he might not have links to IS?!?! Muslims aren't to blame?! I wonder if this is still terrorism then? :conf: or is it terrorism cause he's a brown person and only brown people can be terrorists? Which is the main factor Muslim or brown idk?!?! Cause Jo Cox's white far right killer wasn't a terrorist even though he was a terrorist but it was just mental illness so what's it to be here?!?!?!

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, fume, be confused or what at the anti-multiculturalism sentiments anymore. The worst thing is you are playing right into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists. Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want? They don't want normal, civilised, law-abiding Muslims to be accepted by you and me. They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us. The entire point of terrorism is to strike fear into people and make them question the society they live in and the people around them. They want you to assume that all Muslims are to blame for this and they must all be sent home immediately because these people don't want them to be a part of Westernised culture at all!

You are giving them exactly what they want. Make people feel isolated, marginalised, criticised and then give them an outlet from which to vent their festering hatred. This is precisely how people are radicalised. We are already part of the problem and now lots seem to want to exacerbate said problem by giving them exactly the response that they want.

By letting them win, you are making the problem worse.

Nail, meet head

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why have you linked this to every other terrorist attack?

Are you really that desperate to link this to IS, with no other evidence than your rigid construct of who has recently done so :/

No, i am just reminding the thread of recent terror activity in europe

[Crimson Dynamo]

Wait so he might not have links to IS?!?! Muslims aren't to blame?! I wonder if this is still terrorism then? :conf: or is it terrorism cause he's a brown person and only brown people can be terrorists? Which is the main factor Muslim or brown idk?!?! Cause Jo Cox's white far right killer wasn't a terrorist even though he was a terrorist but it was just mental illness so what's it to be here?!?!?!

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, fume, be confused or what at the anti-multiculturalism sentiments anymore. The worst thing is you are playing right into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists. Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want? They don't want normal, civilised, law-abiding Muslims to be accepted by you and me. They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us. The entire point of terrorism is to strike fear into people and make them question the society they live in and the people around them. They want you to assume that all Muslims are to blame for this and they must all be sent home immediately because these people don't want them to be a part of Westernised culture at all!

You are giving them exactly what they want. Make people feel isolated, marginalised, criticised and then give them an outlet from which to vent their festering hatred. This is precisely how people are radicalised. We are already part of the problem and now lots seem to want to exacerbate said problem by giving them exactly the response that they want.

By letting them win, you are making the problem worse.

Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want?
They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.


Have ISIS released this as a statement that I missed or have they brought out a manifesto?


Where did you read this Jack?

[Kizzy]

No, i am just reminding the thread of recent terror activity in europe

As if anyone needs reminding... But why, what was the logic behind it?

Genuinely interested in the reasoning behind the intrinsic link you have seemingly made here.

[user104658]

No, i am just reminding the thread of recent terror activity in europe
Perhaps someone on one of the other threads should post a list of unarmed black people shot by cops in the US over the last 2 years.

What's that? That wouldn't be legitimate? It would be meaningless without context, you say? It would be totally different? Hmmmmm.


Also not sure what you're trying to prove by pointing out that there has been an increase in terror activity. Like it somehow proves your point? It would be equally valid (and in my opinion, far more accurate) to point out that the increase in home grown Lone Wolf terrorism goes hand in hand with the increase in xenophobic cultural rejection. You know. That "multiculturalism has failed" soundbite that keeps bleating on repeat?

[Kizzy]

Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want?
They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.


Have ISIS released this as a statement that I missed or have they brought out a manifesto?


Where did you read this Jack?

It's factual counter terrorism advise, it's part of the PREVENT strategy that not many people appear to have taken on board.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's factual counter terrorism advise, it's part of the PREVENT strategy that not many people appear to have taken on board.

Is it this one?

Prevent strategy 'could end up promoting extremism'

he Prevent programme was introduced as part of the government’s post-September 11 counter-terrorism strategy, aimed at stopping people becoming terrorists. However, the strategy remains deeply controversial.

Some critics believe Prevent is counter-productive and discriminates against Muslims, while others have said there is no clear way to measure its effectiveness.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/21/government-prevent-strategy-promoting-extremism-maina-kiai

[Kizzy]

Perhaps someone on one of the other threads should post a list of unarmed black people shot by cops in the US over the last 2 years.

What's that? That wouldn't be legitimate? It would be meaningless without context, you say? It would be totally different? Hmmmmm.


Also not sure what you're trying to prove by pointing out that there has been an increase in terror activity. Like it somehow proves your point? It would be equally valid (and in my opinion, far more accurate) to point out that the increase in home grown Lone Wolf terrorism goes hand in hand with the increase in xenophobic cultural rejection. You know. That "multiculturalism has failed" soundbite that keeps bleating on repeat?

Maybe 'Multiculturalism has failed' is the new mantra similar to 'let's take back control' that Mr McKenna advocated as a tool of social control during the referendum?...

[Jack_]

Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want?
They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.


Have ISIS released this as a statement that I missed or have they brought out a manifesto?


Where did you read this Jack?

Specifically, the grey zone refers to the sphere of coexistence where Muslim and non-Muslim might live together. That’s anathema to the frightened young men of Isis, who yearn for a world divided on binary lines, with room for only two categories – them and the infidel.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/20/isis-binary-struggle-grey-zone-jihadism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis

IN A STATEMENT PUBLISHED in its online magazine, Dabiq, this February, the militant group the Islamic State warned that “Muslims in the West will soon find themselves between one of two choices.” ...

While ISIS initially endorsed the killings on purely religious grounds, calling the murdered cartoonists blasphemers, in Dabiq the group offered another, more chilling rationale for its support.

The attack had “further [brought] division to the world,” the group said, boasting that it had polarized society and “eliminated the grayzone,” representing coexistence between religious groups. As a result, it said, Muslims living in the West would soon no longer be welcome in their own societies. Treated with increasing suspicion, distrust and hostility by their fellow citizens as a result of the deadly shooting, Western Muslims would soon be forced to “either apostatize … or they [migrate] to the Islamic State, and thereby escape persecution from the crusader governments and citizens,” the group stated, while threatening of more attacks to come.

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTvBGbiUYAA6bVk.png

[Kizzy]

Is it this one?

Prevent strategy 'could end up promoting extremism'

he Prevent programme was introduced as part of the government’s post-September 11 counter-terrorism strategy, aimed at stopping people becoming terrorists. However, the strategy remains deeply controversial.

Some critics believe Prevent is counter-productive and discriminates against Muslims, while others have said there is no clear way to measure its effectiveness.


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/21/government-prevent-strategy-promoting-extremism-maina-kiai

That may have been sold as justification for scaling back funding perhaps, but what was the alternative? Oh, that's right there wasn't one apart from the relentless media demonisation.

Anyhoo have a flick through yourself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/20/isis-binary-struggle-grey-zone-jihadism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis



https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTvBGbiUYAA6bVk.png

Thankyou

But what has this got to do with the failure of multiculturalism?

[Jack_]

Thankyou

But what has this got to do with the failure of multiculturalism?

There is no 'failure of multiculturalism'. You are missing the point. IS want multiculturalism to fail, it is written for you in plain sight right there.

By pandering to their wishes, you are exacerbating the problem.

[user104658]

Do you not realise that division and segregation is exactly what they want?
They want them to be marginalised, chastised. They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.They want them to feel hated. They want them to hate us.


Have ISIS released this as a statement that I missed or have they brought out a manifesto?


I'm starting to think that you legitimately might just be taking the **** now LT. Forget ISIS, you're claiming that you don't know about or understand one of the most very basic aims of terrorism in all forms.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There is no 'failure of multiculturalism'. You are missing the point. IS want multiculturalism to fail, it is written for you in plain sight right there.

By pandering to their wishes, you are exacerbating the problem.

But it has failed not due to to terrorism but due to it being uncontrolled and the fact that ghettoisation and failure to integrate.

Have you had a walk around east London or in Leicester or in Birmingham recently? Real multiculturalism is formed by societies not governments but if there are just too many coming in society cant cope.

and its not just me its our former PM who also agrees

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has identified segregation and separatism as key issues behind the threat of Islamic extremism and called for a "shared national identity" to replace "the doctrine of state multiculturalism".

Speaking at the Munich Security Conference on 5 February, Cameron said that Western countries needed to confront extremism rather than pursue a "hands-off tolerance".

The UK prime minister said "the doctrine of state multiculturalism" had encouraged segregation and failed to supply "a vision of society" to which people want to belong.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/after-merkel-cameron-too-says-multiculturalism-has-failed/

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm starting to think that you legitimately might just be taking the **** now LT. Forget ISIS, you're claiming that you don't know about or understand one of the most very basic aims of terrorism in all forms.

Incorrect TS I am aware of the claims made as to the strategy of IS (and I dont think they really have one tbh) but this stuff gets trotted out as fact a lot but it reads like a James BOnd movie script and I tend to hear it from "security experts" on the tv and i have no idea why they are experts and where they get this stuff. But Jack answered my question well with an IS quote so you dont need to worry. Thankyou Jack.

[user104658]

But it has failed not due to to terrorism but due to it being uncontrolled and the fact that ghettoisation and failure to integrate.

Have you had a walk around east London or in Leicester or in Birmingham recently? Real multiculturalism is formed by societies not governments but if there are just too many coming in society cant cope.

and its not just me its our former PM who also agrees

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has identified segregation and separatism as key issues behind the threat of Islamic extremism and called for a "shared national identity" to replace "the doctrine of state multiculturalism".

Speaking at the Munich Security Conference on 5 February, Cameron said that Western countries needed to confront extremism rather than pursue a "hands-off tolerance".

The UK prime minister said "the doctrine of state multiculturalism" had encouraged segregation and failed to supply "a vision of society" to which people want to belong.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/after-merkel-cameron-too-says-multiculturalism-has-failed/


And ghettoisation and failure to integrate are fuelled by rejection. Exactly the sort of rejection that you are promoting by claiming that every terrorist incident is the fault of "failed multiculturalism".

You seem now to be suggesting that when people say "multiculturalism has failed!" they are saying that it has a chance of succeeding if more carefully and slowly implemented. THAT would be a perfectly level-headed and logical standpoint.

However, I see VERY LITTLE of that sentiment when I see people making these claims about failing multiculturalism. What they are saying is "No it never worked and can never work, get them all out, send them all home, don't let any more in". If that's not the intended message then the true message is being completely lost somewhere in the ham-fisted delivery... and as a result, it IS fuelling division, alienation, and from that, fuelling terrorism.

If what you mean is "Multiculturalism isn't being done properly" then take the time to say so and explain that instead of barking "FAILED!!!". It's lazy and it adds to the problem, rather than helping to solve it.

[Kizzy]

But it has failed not due to to terrorism but due to it being uncontrolled and the fact that ghettoisation and failure to integrate.

Have you had a walk around east London or in Leicester or in Birmingham recently? Real multiculturalism is formed by societies not governments but if there are just too many coming in society cant cope.

and its not just me its our former PM who also agrees

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has identified segregation and separatism as key issues behind the threat of Islamic extremism and called for a "shared national identity" to replace "the doctrine of state multiculturalism".

Speaking at the Munich Security Conference on 5 February, Cameron said that Western countries needed to confront extremism rather than pursue a "hands-off tolerance".

The UK prime minister said "the doctrine of state multiculturalism" had encouraged segregation and failed to supply "a vision of society" to which people want to belong.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/after-merkel-cameron-too-says-multiculturalism-has-failed/

Oh is that why he referred to refugees as a 'swarm'? and sat back whilst the media made folk devils of the entire Muslim population?.... pfffft!

[Crimson Dynamo]

L_oIUHRRCTM

:joker: Poor Owen first to comment after the poll result announced (he was right about vile "faith" schools tho)

[Greg!]

But it has failed not due to to terrorism but due to it being uncontrolled and the fact that ghettoisation and failure to integrate.

Have you had a walk around east London or in Leicester or in Birmingham recently? Real multiculturalism is formed by societies not governments but if there are just too many coming in society cant cope.

and its not just me its our former PM who also agrees

LT you live in Scotland so I don't think you're well enough informed to tell people what east London and Birmingham are like.

[arista]

As I stated at AM time on this thread
This Evil Terrorist used facebook
to get kids to go to that McD,
So he Could kill them


Isis - has nothing to do with it

But he was Still a Terrorist loner
and Bought His Gun from Albanians
in Germany.

Out there Guns are Easy to buy

[Crimson Dynamo]

LT you live in Scotland so I don't think you're well enough informed to tell people what east London and Birmingham are like.

I lived 15 years in London and visited the East End ever other Saturday near as dammit so maybe apart from say Livia on Tibb I think I know that area pretty well

You need to know yourself gurl :nono:

[arista]

I lived 15 years in London and visited the East End ever other Saturday near as dammit so maybe apart from say Livia on Tibb I think I know that area pretty well

You need to know yourself gurl :nono:


You Tell Him LT


Cheeky youngster on this Great Forum

[arista]

The last bullet this Punk Fired
was in his own Head.

[Greg!]

I lived 15 years in London and visited the East End ever other Saturday near as dammit so maybe apart from say Livia on Tibb I think I know that area pretty well

You need to know yourself gurl :nono:

Visiting east London every other Saturday doesn't make you an expert on the area I'm afraid. I bet most people who live there now quite like the diversity

[arista]

Visiting east London every other Saturday doesn't make you an expert on the area I'm afraid. I bet most people who live there now quite like the diversity


Your in Scotland are you not?

Are you not Z?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Visiting east London every other Saturday doesn't make you an expert on the area I'm afraid. I bet most people who live there now quite like the diversity

Well lucky that i did not claim to be an expert just someone who knows the area and saw it change dramatically in the short space of 15 years

luckily a BBC documentary was recently made about this

you can watch it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07czw5k

The area has had an influx of 70,000 immigrants in the past 15 years. 73 per cent of the local population is now made up of ethnic minorities and Black British.

[Livia]

Visiting east London every other Saturday doesn't make you an expert on the area I'm afraid. I bet most people who live there now quite like the diversity

It used to be a wonderful place to live. Lots of people from all over the world, my maternal grandparents came to east London as refugees. But now, it's swung too far the opposite way. My home borough - Newham - was the first where incomers outnumbered the locals. Most east enders have moved to Essex and further afield. It is not the same place now. I urge you to watch the BBC documentary The Last Whites of the East End. Then you'll have a better understanding of what's happened.

And actually, LT has a pretty good knowledge of east London.

[Greg!]

Your in Scotland are you not?

Are you not Z?

I am but I'm going off evidence to support my view. The vast majority of Londoners voted to stay in the EU which would suggest they don't think immigration is a huge problem

[Jack_]

As Greg said, if Londoners didn't like multiculturalism they wouldn't have voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, and they certainly wouldn't have rejected one of the nastiest dog whistle campaigns in British political history to elect the city's first Muslim mayor.

If anything London isn't multicultural enough. When I visited New York last month one of the most noticeable and lovely things for me was just how diverse it was. Thousands of people from different cultures and ethnic backgrounds all coexisting peacefully.

[arista]

I am but I'm going off evidence to support my view. The vast majority of Londoners voted to stay in the EU which would suggest they don't think immigration is a huge problem


Sure But not on 2 edges they did not
They Voted OUT of the Fecking EU.


Its what you need young Fellow
Extra Harder Work
make you ready to become a CEO , down the road

[Greg!]

Well lucky that i did not claim to be an expert just someone who knows the area and saw it change dramatically in the short space of 15 years

luckily a BBC documentary was recently made about this

you can watch it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07czw5k

The area has had an influx of 70,000 immigrants in the past 15 years. 73 per cent of the local population is now made up of ethnic minorities and Black British.

It used to be a wonderful place to live. Lots of people from all over the world, my maternal grandparents came to east London as refugees. But now, it's swung too far the opposite way. My home borough - Newham - was the first where incomers outnumbered the locals. Most east enders have moved to Essex and further afield. It is not the same place now. I urge you to watch the BBC documentary The Last Whites of the East End. Then you'll have a better understanding of what's happened.

And actually, LT has a pretty good knowledge of east London.

you mean the propaganda fuelled crap trying to paint a picture of white flight in newham by filming scenes in an asian market miles away in whitechapel? the programme that featured a man complaining about immigrants when he was half black and a woman that said she'd be disappointed if her children didn't have relationships with white people. that's your source?

[chuff me dizzy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gNAnqlLTK0&feature=youtu.be

[_Tom_]

you mean the propaganda fuelled crap trying to paint a picture of white flight in newham by filming scenes in an asian market miles away in whitechapel? the programme that featured a man complaining about immigrants when he was half black and a woman that said she'd be disappointed if her children didn't have relationships with white people. that's your source?

So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant? Lovely. :umm2:

[user104658]

So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant? Lovely. :umm2:

Not sure if intentional, but you've just made it very clear that you find the word "immigrant" to be an insult.

[Greg!]

So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant? Lovely. :umm2:

No?

[Livia]

I am but I'm going off evidence to support my view. The vast majority of Londoners voted to stay in the EU which would suggest they don't think immigration is a huge problem

As Greg said, if Londoners didn't like multiculturalism they wouldn't have voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, and they certainly wouldn't have rejected one of the nastiest dog whistle campaigns in British political history to elect the city's first Muslim mayor.

If anything London isn't multicultural enough. When I visited New York last month one of the most noticeable and lovely things for me was just how diverse it was. Thousands of people from different cultures and ethnic backgrounds all coexisting peacefully.

London, being so very multicultural now, voted to stay in the EU. That's probably because a huge proportion of people living in London now are incomers. Places like Basildon and Brentwood, home to hoards of east Londoners who've moved out of London, voted overwhelmingly to leave.

[Greg!]

London, being so very multicultural now, voted to stay in the EU. That's probably because a huge proportion of people living in London now are incomers.

Or maybe it's because they are tolerant of people from other cultures and backgrounds?

[_Tom_]

Not sure if intentional, but you've just made it very clear that you find the word "immigrant" to be an insult.

Don't be stupid, Greg just insinuated that a person isn't able to be concerned about immigration because they're "half black". How does he know they aren't British? Back up your lies or retract immediately.

[Livia]

Or maybe it's because they are tolerant of people from other cultures and backgrounds?

You imply that the white indigenous people from east London are all intolerant. The fact is that London has always been multicultural. I worked at the local college where over 100 languages were recognised. My school had kids from all over the world. However, in the last ten years it's tipped the balance. More people came, more locals left... it's not the same place now. And no one asked them whether they wanted things to stay the same or to increase immigration. It's changed the whole culture, people who've been there for generations and mixed quite happily with other cultures - there were black people in what became Newham in Victorian times, the Royal Docks brought people in from all over - barely recognise the place. It doesn't make them xenophobes and it doesn't make them intolerant to feel that the balance has been tipped too far.

[user104658]

Don't be stupid, Greg just insinuated that a person isn't able to be concerned about immigration because they're "half black". How does he know they aren't British? Back up your lies or retract immediately.
"Must be an immigrant? Lovely :umm2:"

There's nothing else needed to back it up :shrug:. There's no possible explanation for what you said, other than you considering "being an immigrant" to be a negative thing.

Anyway... "retract immediately"? :joker: Are you planning to sue? :worry:

[Greg!]

Don't be stupid, Greg just insinuated that a person isn't able to be concerned about immigration because they're "half black". How does he know they aren't British? Back up your lies or retract immediately.

Umm I didn't say he wasn't British. I was just saying he was hypocritical to moan about immigrants when he was descended from immigrants himself

[_Tom_]

"Must be an immigrant? Lovely :umm2:"

There's nothing else needed to back it up :shrug:. There's no possible explanation for what you said, other than you considering "being an immigrant" to be a negative thing.

Anyway... "retract immediately"? :joker: Are you planning to sue? :worry:

Use the full quote please... So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant?

The "lovely" was directed towards what Greg said, not the 'immigrant' bit. :crazy:

[Greg!]

Use the full quote please... So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant?

The "lovely" was directed towards what Greg said, not the 'immigrant' bit. :crazy:

If you had actually watched the programme you'd know the people featured in it had no legitimate concerns like the supposed strain on the economy from unfettered immigration, it was nothing more than colour and culture. so him being the child of immigrant does make him look stupid in this scenario.

[user104658]

Use the full quote please... So according to you a man who is "half black" must be an immigrant?

The "lovely" was directed towards what Greg said, not the 'immigrant' bit. :crazy:
Where did I say that? I have no idea whether he is an immigrant or not, nor does it particularly matter to me, because I don't find the idea of someone being an immigrant to be any sort of slight on their character. I'll reiterate that I can't think of any reason for you to say "lovely :umm2:" other than considering it to be a negative. You wouldn't, for example, say "So you assume because he has medical knowledge he must be a doctor? Lovely :umm2:"

[_Tom_]

Umm I didn't say he wasn't British. I was just saying he was hypocritical to moan about immigrants when he was descended from immigrants himself

I don't find that hypocritical, I don't see why minorities aren't allowed to think for themselves and have their own opinions? Maybe he feels there's 'too much a good thing'? Some of the most vocal anti-immigration people are immigrants themselves.

[_Tom_]

Where did I say that? I have no idea whether he is an immigrant or not, nor does it particularly matter to me, because I don't find the idea of someone being an immigrant to be any sort of slight on their character. I'll reiterate that I can't think of any reason for you to say "lovely :umm2:" other than considering it to be a negative. You wouldn't, for example, say "So you assume because he has medical knowledge he must be a doctor? Lovely :umm2:"

Neither do I because I haven't seen the clip. Again, my "lovely :umm2:" was directed at Greg's comment which pretty much insinuated that he must be an immigrant because he's half black. Maybe he's British? If he is indeed an immigrant I would have expected it to have been in that post to make an argument that he is hypocritical. This isn't difficult to grasp.

[Kizzy]

I don't find that hypocritical, I don't see why minorities aren't allowed to think for themselves and have their own opinions? Maybe he feels there's 'too much a good thing'? Some of the most vocal anti-immigration people are immigrants themselves.

Then they have assimilated into the 'I'm alright Jack' British culture very well then haven't they?...Who said multiculturalism was impossible?

[GiRTh]

It used to be a wonderful place to live. Lots of people from all over the world, my maternal grandparents came to east London as refugees. But now, it's swung too far the opposite way. My home borough - Newham - was the first where incomers outnumbered the locals. Most east enders have moved to Essex and further afield. It is not the same place now. I urge you to watch the BBC documentary The Last Whites of the East End. Then you'll have a better understanding of what's happened.

And actually, LT has a pretty good knowledge of east London.

You imply that the white indigenous people from east London are all intolerant. The fact is that London has always been multicultural. I worked at the local college where over 100 languages were recognised. My school had kids from all over the world. However, in the last ten years it's tipped the balance. More people came, more locals left... it's not the same place now. And no one asked them whether they wanted things to stay the same or to increase immigration. It's changed the whole culture, people who've been there for generations and mixed quite happily with other cultures - there were black people in what became Newham in Victorian times, the Royal Docks brought people in from all over - barely recognise the place. It doesn't make them xenophobes and it doesn't make them intolerant to feel that the balance has been tipped too far.When I read the first post my immediate reaction was I doubt you're old enough to remember what the area was like before immigrants. I am certain you are younger than me and I can state I definitely do not remember what my town was like before immigrants moved in. I know this cuz my parents were those immigrants.

In the second post I see you're referring to an influx in the past ten years so that clears that up but one thing that bothers me is that I dont recall - in my area yours may be different - that things were so harmonious back then. I dont recall there was as much of an effort to fit in that I remember eg one of my friends that I went to school his mother never spoke a word of English in my presence. My recollection is that this country has always had issues with immigrants coming in its just now there are a different set of cultures at the focus of the issues.

[user104658]

Neither do I because I haven't seen the clip. Again, my "lovely :umm2:" was directed at Greg's comment which pretty much insinuated that he must be an immigrant because he's half black. Maybe he's British? If he is indeed an immigrant I would have expected it to have been in that post to make an argument that he is hypocritical. This isn't difficult to grasp.
Again, even the word "insinuated" has negative connotations. "Insinuated that he must be an immigrant! Eww, yuck etc"

[Crimson Dynamo]

you mean the propaganda fuelled crap trying to paint a picture of white flight in newham by filming scenes in an asian market miles away in whitechapel? the programme that featured a man complaining about immigrants when he was half black and a woman that said she'd be disappointed if her children didn't have relationships with white people. that's your source?

er the BBC

[_Tom_]

Again, even the word "insinuated" has negative connotations. "Insinuated that he must be an immigrant! Eww, yuck etc"

You're truly clutching now darl. Bless. :flowers:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am but I'm going off evidence to support my view. The vast majority of Londoners voted to stay in the EU which would suggest they don't think immigration is a huge problem

er hello the EU referendum was about us staying in the EU it was not a vote on immigration despite what our left of central friends would like to have thought it was about

and i guess that the fact that you thought it was rather suggests that I am right

[Greg!]

er the BBC

Me caring the BBC made it. the "documentary" was a biased piece of shįt

[Kizzy]

er hello the EU referendum was about us staying in the EU it was not a vote on immigration despite what our left of central friends would like to have thought it was about

and i guess that the fact that you thought it was rather suggests that I am right

It was sold on immigration...you know that and I know that, whatever you say to attempt to dress it up as something else we both know that was the crux.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was sold on immigration...you know that and I know that, whatever you say to attempt to dress it up as something else we both know that was the crux.

incorrect it was sold on us taking back control of law, trade and our borders. Im sorry that all you read was the New Statesman it seems

[Crimson Dynamo]

Me caring the BBC made it. the "documentary" was a biased piece of shįt

ok so now we know where you are coming from..

[Kizzy]

Me caring the BBC made it. the "documentary" was a biased piece of shįt

Are you suggesting our wonderful media is biased?....
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m8k51UgBkE4/Vgn7Ne9exFI/AAAAAAAAf4U/CEks6zpK4z8/w426-h341/2b744aed-f3b6-48aa-90e9-64087dd450d1

[Crimson Dynamo]

Are you suggesting our wonderful media is biased?....
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m8k51UgBkE4/Vgn7Ne9exFI/AAAAAAAAf4U/CEks6zpK4z8/w426-h341/2b744aed-f3b6-48aa-90e9-64087dd450d1

well to suggest the BBC is right wing

now THAT must be a TIBB first?

[user104658]

incorrect it was sold on us taking back control of law, trade and our borders. Im sorry that all you read was the New Statesman it seems

It was in large part sold on immigration and if it hadn't been, if it had been sold on "control of law and trade", the vote wouldn't have swung that way.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/19/10/356F8E4500000578-0-image-a-34_1466328712120.jpg

I'm sure not everyone voted based on that, but a large enough proportion to account for far more than the small %age swing, certainly. But then, you know that, this is is another example of you pretending to be ignorant when the obvious doesn't suit the point that you're trying to make.

[Greg!]

well to suggest the BBC is right wing

now THAT must be a TIBB first?

No ones saying the BBC as a whole is. But that particular documentary was biased and misleading

[Kizzy]

incorrect it was sold on us taking back control of law, trade and our borders. Im sorry that all you read was the New Statesman it seems

Isn't this the same thing?... :/ the new statesman copypasta was all the brexiteers posted wasn't it? :laugh:

'Taking back control'... got to love Paul McKenna he's VERY good isn't he?

[Anaesthesia]

Latest news seems to be that this was a lone teenager, westernised, raised mainly in Germany, with a history of mental health problems and no links at all to ISIS or any other terrorist group.

"Multiculturalism gone wrong", indeed. Seems to be the latest buzz phrase to legitimise quite blatant xenophobia. Oh boo Hoo boo Hoo people don't like it when I use that word!!

Well... Sozzles guyz... Bleating things like "multiculturalism gone wrong", "multiculturalism has failed" is the VERY definition of xenophobia. It's just hiding behind a fancier, trendy way of saying "foreigners go home!".

And then latching onto every incident to back up that thinking LONG before the full facts have come to light. But of course, from the very same who are mocking and sneering at others for passing comment before "all of the facts are known".

Once again - it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad and deeply disturbing. It seems like more and more people are swayed to this arse-backwards way of thinking every day.

Couldn't agree with you more TS.

[Shaun]

Is it true all of the victims were singled out for looking middle-eastern as well?

756871300224778240

Saw something about him being obsessed with that Breivik guy from Norway.

[Jack_]

So is this not terrorism now? Or is it cause he's brown? What's the main factor in defining it, being a Muslim or brown?!?! :think:

Cause Jo Cox's murderer wasn't a terrorist even though he was. Be interesting to see the narrative won't it

[user104658]

So is this not terrorism now? Or is it cause he's brown? What's the main factor in defining it, being a Muslim or brown?!?! :think:

Cause Jo Cox's murderer wasn't a terrorist even though he was. Be interesting to see the narrative won't it

It's more to do with the victims I think... it's still technically classed as terrorism but it's that other "meh, whatever then" terrorism that happens when the victims aren't wEuropean or American (Canadian, Australian, etc.).

You know, like when schools get massacred in the Middle East and people say "Aw shame did you see EastEnders last night?" "That" sort of terrorism.

[Alf]

Multiculturalism hasn't failed, It's Islam that's failed.

There's no problem with Sikhs, Jews, The Irish or anyone else, the problem is Islam.

And that's been brought about by political correctness, instead of encouraging them to be British and feel proud to be British and class themselves as British, we've told them that their culture is equal to ours, which is just so not true, the reason they come here in the first place is to get away from that barbaric culture.

Political Correctness is killing The West, and we need some leadership to stop this, although I fear it may be too late to sort it out peacefully.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Multiculturalism hasn't failed, It's Islam that's failed.

There's no problem with Sikhs, Jews, The Irish or anyone else, the problem is Islam.

And that's been brought about by political correctness, instead of encouraging them to be British and feel proud to be British and class themselves as British, we've told them that their culture is equal to ours, which is just so not true, the reason they come here in the first place is to get away from that barbaric culture.

Political Correctness is killing The West, and we need some leadership to stop this, although I fear it may be too late to sort it out peacefully.

Yep, tolerating this ridiculous superstition is one of the root causes

[user104658]

Thread has been dead since the story changed.
Doesn't matter how much proof there is, if a signed confession comes to light written by the boy himself outlining exactly why he did it, and it has nothing to do with "a failure of multiculturalism" (and can't be twisted as such), the people who have already decided and stated their opinions on the causes of this attack and what it "means for the world" will most likely simply never post about it again.
Called it before it happened.

Where are all of those passionate voices now? Not one to be seen, because it can no longer be claimed as a "win" for those who want the world divided along cultural borders, and are they here to say "oh it seems like we were wrong about this shooting and it doesn't signal what we thought at all"? Nope. Thread abandonned, forget it ever happened, jump back on the train next time there's an attack and hope the attacker's profile is right then.

[user104658]

Yep, tolerating this ridiculous superstition is one of the root causes
France is one of the most secular, heavily non-religious (often anti-religious) places in the world and has very low tolerance for religion compared to other countries in western Europe. It also has the highest incidence of home-grown terrorism.

I personally am anti-religious at my very core when it comes down to it but on this one you are just straight up wrong.

Higher standards of real education and knowledge, if we can ever achieve those, would gradually erode the grip of superstition over the generations (this has already started in Britain, IMO) but intolerance will do nothing but generate backlash. Intolerance IS one of the root causes.

[Livia]

Thread has been dead since the story changed.

Called it before it happened.

Where are all of those passionate voices now? Not one to be seen, because it can no longer be claimed as a "win" for those who want the world divided along cultural borders, and are they here to say "oh it seems like we were wrong about this shooting and it doesn't signal what we thought at all"? Nope. Thread abandonned, forget it ever happened, jump back on the train next time there's an attack and hope the attacker's profile is right then.

What's the point? You've already got all the answers, right? You're so brilliant TS, you're never wrong. We should just close serious debates and defer to you everytime there's something to discuss so we can see what we're all supposed to think.

[user104658]

What's the point? You've already got all the answers, right? You're so brilliant TS, you're never wrong. We should just close serious debates and defer to you everytime there's something to discuss so we can see what we're all supposed to think.
Or we could all start getting sarcastic and snippy as soon as we have nothing left to back up our dubious prejudices? That would vastly improve things.

[Jack_]

It's more to do with the victims I think... it's still technically classed as terrorism but it's that other "meh, whatever then" terrorism that happens when the victims aren't wEuropean or American (Canadian, Australian, etc.).

You know, like when schools get massacred in the Middle East and people say "Aw shame did you see EastEnders last night?" "That" sort of terrorism.

Judging by the number of responses to the Kabul thread it would seem you're right

Thread has been dead since the story changed.

Called it before it happened.

Where are all of those passionate voices now? Not one to be seen, because it can no longer be claimed as a "win" for those who want the world divided along cultural borders, and are they here to say "oh it seems like we were wrong about this shooting and it doesn't signal what we thought at all"? Nope. Thread abandonned, forget it ever happened, jump back on the train next time there's an attack and hope the attacker's profile is right then.

:joker:

This is so true. It was the same with the Jo Cox murder, as soon as it emerged the perpetrator was a white man who had far-right political leanings, it was no longer about terrorism and clamping down on a poisonous ideology, more 'oh he was just a gardener that was a bit of a loner and had mental health issues :(' and the discussion was over

[Livia]

Or we could all start getting sarcastic and snippy as soon as we have nothing left to back up our dubious prejudices? That would vastly improve things.

I apologise TS, I should have realised that you have the monopoly on sarcastic and snippy.

If only we could all be like you, void of dubious prejudice.

[user104658]

I apologise TS, I should have realised that you have the monopoly on sarcastic and snippy.

If only we could all be like you, void of dubious prejudice.
I was being ironic with my sarcasm; it's meta.

And while I do wish people could be more like me it is unfortunately not advisable. There is only one TS and multiple TS's in one place is a living nightmare... I've tried it... We ended up disagreeing with each other and an entire forum imploded. You can't even find a Google Cache of it any more, it was erased from existence.

So you will just have to content yourself with one, perfect, original TS :worry:

[Kizzy]

I do snippy well I've been told, usually when calling out prejudices too strangely, can I be a TS please? :D

[Crimson Dynamo]

France is one of the most secular, heavily non-religious (often anti-religious) places in the world and has very low tolerance for religion compared to other countries in western Europe. It also has the highest incidence of home-grown terrorism.

I personally am anti-religious at my very core when it comes down to it but on this one you are just straight up wrong.

Higher standards of real education and knowledge, if we can ever achieve those, would gradually erode the grip of superstition over the generations (this has already started in Britain, IMO) but intolerance will do nothing but generate backlash. Intolerance IS one of the root causes.

Well Nice has its fair share of immigrants in ghettos, a lot of islam is practised and there are mosques. The Nice killer was targeted and radicalised very quickly. Marseilles has 30-40% Muslim population.

The French themselves may be secular but their immigrant population sure are not

[Livia]

I do snippy well I've been told, usually when calling out prejudices too strangely, can I be a TS please? :D

You mean, when you're ridiculing people who have a different opinion from you.

And you are already a TS.

[user104658]

Well Nice has its fair share of immigrants in ghettos, a lot of islam is practised and there are mosques. The Nice killer was targeted and radicalised very quickly. Marseilles has 30-40% Muslim population.

The French themselves may be secular but their immigrant population sure are not
Yes but that's the point; the native population are highly secular and intolerant of religious cultures and so reject integration strongly, leading to ghettoisation and isolation, which is what provides plenty of disenfranchised (usually) young and easily influenced individuals to radicalise. You're totally right that the problem lies in the insular communities and ghettos. These are not caused by multiculturalism, or "failing" multiculturalism, but a REJECTION of multiculturalism... And yet, your solution is to reject it even more strongly?

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was in large part sold on immigration and if it hadn't been, if it had been sold on "control of law and trade", the vote wouldn't have swung that way.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/19/10/356F8E4500000578-0-image-a-34_1466328712120.jpg

I'm sure not everyone voted based on that, but a large enough proportion to account for far more than the small %age swing, certainly. But then, you know that, this is is another example of you pretending to be ignorant when the obvious doesn't suit the point that you're trying to make.

TS you are beginning to catch Jackitis

Its a condition where you seem to think you know exactly a posters mind and motive in order to make your own argument sound credible. :worry:


LT: I am so hungry I have not eaten all day

Jack: Lol, LT you are full up and are not hungry, stop saying you are hungry you lying charlatan

:shocked:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes but that's the point; the native population are highly secular and intolerant of religious cultures and so reject integration strongly, leading to ghettoisation and isolation, which is what provides plenty of disenfranchised (usually) young and easily influenced individuals to radicalise. You're totally right that the problem lies in the insular communities and ghettos. These are not caused by multiculturalism, or "failing" multiculturalism, but a REJECTION of multiculturalism... And yet, your solution is to reject it even more strongly?

Are you saying that the French should welcome this backward unreformed ridiculous religion with open arms?


I dont think that the ghettisation is solely based on the secular nature of the French but more to do with money?

[user104658]

TS you are beginning to catch Jackitis

Its a condition where you seem to think you know exactly a posters mind and motive in order to make your own argument sound credible. :worry:


LT: I am so hungry I have not eaten all day

Jack: Lol, LT you are full up and are not hungry, stop saying you are hungry you lying charlatan

:shocked:
You should be flattered LT, the only reason I think you're being disingenuous is that I'm convinced you aren't stupid.

[Kizzy]

You mean, when you're ridiculing people who have a different opinion from you.

And you are already a TS.

Rude :hmph:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You should be flattered LT, the only reason I think you're being disingenuous is that I'm convinced you aren't stupid.

you are doing it again as you imply that I must be stupid to disagree with you

It looks like you have it bad

:worry:

i could mean infer, i never get that right

[user104658]

Are you saying that the French should welcome this backward unreformed ridiculous religion with open arms?


I dont think that the ghettisation is solely based on the secular nature of the French but more to do with money?
I think they should be tolerant of the differences in newcomers, integrate them properly into society, and then see the benefits that follow. If you look at the heavily religious immigrant families in Britain and America who ARE well integrated (and they do exist) you can see the effect... First generation holds onto it, second generation keeps a lot of the tradition but are more accepting of their children's freedom to choose, third generation starts to become as indifferent to religion as our own teens. They take more societal influence from their friends and those around them than from family. The problem with ghettos of course being that this is lost.

Multiculturalism only works with integration and willingness to integrate has to come from BOTH sides.

[user104658]

you are doing it again as you imply that I must be stupid to disagree with you

It looks like you have it bad

:worry:

i could mean infer, i never get that right
No no no, not to disagree with me, but to pretend to be ignorant of some fairly objective concepts. If you interpret things differently, that's fine.

[Kizzy]

TS you are beginning to catch Jackitis

Its a condition where you seem to think you know exactly a posters mind and motive in order to make your own argument sound credible. :worry:


LT: I am so hungry I have not eaten all day

Jack: Lol, LT you are full up and are not hungry, stop saying you are hungry you lying charlatan

:shocked:

Have you caught an itus off the forum oracle?... you seem to be mocking the comments of others in an attempt to make your paper thin argument appear credible in this thread.

PS I am not the forum oracle ;)

[Livia]

Have you caught an itus off the forum oracle?... you seem to be mocking the comments of others in an attempt to make your paper thin argument appear credible in this thread.

PS I am not the forum oracle ;)

We finally agree on something.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Have you caught an itus off the forum oracle?... you seem to be mocking the comments of others in an attempt to make your paper thin argument appear credible in this thread.

PS I am not the forum oracle ;)

dont drag me into your fight:nono:

TS, Jack and I are best pals really


:hmph:

[Kizzy]

We finally agree on something.

I wonder who is? ..... :smug:

[Livia]

I wonder who is? ..... :smug:

I'm sorry Kizzy, I left school a long time ago, I'm past this childishness so maybe try it with someone on your own level. And as you seem to thrive on this negative attention, I'm putting you back on ignore.

[user104658]

dont drag me into your fight:nono:

TS, Jack and I are best pals really


:hmph:
So are Livia and Kizzy.


... :umm2:...

[Kizzy]

I'm sorry Kizzy, I left school a long time ago, I'm past this childishness so maybe try it with someone on your own level. And as you seem to thrive on this negative attention, I'm putting you back on ignore.

If that makes you happy, do what you have to do liv.

[user104658]

I'm sorry Kizzy, I left school a long time ago, I'm past this childishness so maybe try it with someone on your own level. And as you seem to thrive on this negative attention, I'm putting you back on ignore.

:joker: Come on Livia, NO ONE on the last few pages can be getting on a maturity high horse...