I cannot believe people are so pissed off about benefit fraud...

[Vicky.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/mother-jailed-for-forcing-children-to-undergo-unnecessary-medica/

In this case. I have friends posting this story on FB going mental about the fraud committed. It seems people care more about some money a person has stolen than the fact that she has put her children through various operations they don't ****ing need? Is this really the state of peoples thinking today? Its actually made me really angry seeing this posted with 'scrounger' DM style comments and NO mention of the poor kids in all of this?!

Yes it is a large amount of fraud but ffs...surely the main issue here is what she put her kids through, not what is in the grand scheme of things really **** all

[Vicky.]

I also do not understand how on earth this has happened, in my experience it takes years for even a scan to see if you need surgery, you cannot just TELL a doctor you need it and get it. surely they must have made some kind of checks to see that what she was saying was true before operating on the poor children :umm2:

[arista]

"It seems people care more about some money a person has stolen than the fact that she has put her children through various operations they don't ****ing need? "

Shocking

[Cherie]

I heard this on the news yesterday, hard to believe she would put her kids through that, and like you Vicky I can't understand how it happened, one of the kids was supposed to have asthma I thought it would be easy enough for a GP to discount asthma though it looks like he was the only one who tried to raise the issue of something being amiss, and as for claiming a child is autistic there are all sorts of hoops to jump through before autism is confirmed and even then there are levels of autistic behaviour, so she must have schooled them on how to behave :shrug: the tube feeding as well is bizarre as someone must have noticed that they could eat normally

[kirklancaster]

I agree that the money aspect - as enraging as it is - is secondary here Vicky, and that it is the appalling physical, psychological, and emotional trauma which this evil bitch has inflicted upon those poor children which SHOULD be our primary concern.

There NEEDS to be a comprehensive official investigation into this unbelievable issue, with those ALL those responsible within the Benefit Agencies AND the Medical Profession, held to account where negligence as been discovered.

I reiterate what both you and Cherie have stated; that THIS cannot happen if the existing procedures and protocol have been adhered to by those in authority.

[Cherie]

I agree that the money aspect - as enraging as it is - is secondary here Vicky, and that it is the appalling physical, psychological, and emotional trauma which this evil bitch has inflicted upon those poor children which SHOULD be our primary concern.

There NEEDS to be a comprehensive official investigation into this unbelievable issue, with those ALL those responsible within the Benefit Agencies AND the Medical Profession, held to account where negligence as been discovered.

I reiterate what both you and Cherie have stated; that THIS cannot happen if the existing procedures and protocol have been adhered to by those in authority.



I'm so sick of hearing.,"there will be a serious case review" ..every time a child is killed or badly abused, the agencies get together, and protocols are put in place that are rarely adhered to. If we are going to talk about wasted money serious case reviews seem to be up there

[Northern Monkey]

"It seems people care more about some money a person has stolen than the fact that she has put her children through various operations they don't ****ing need? "

Shocking

Shocking indeed

[user104658]

It really is illustrative of the UK mindset at the moment, to be honest. Even at the less extreme end of the scale - the kids of parents on benefits get the same "dirty looks" from certain people that their parents do, even though they (as children!) are obviously in no position to do anything about it. When messed up families are spending all of their money on themselves and the kids are in old clothes and not eating properly... The reaction (from many, not all) is "tough **** that's their parents' fault."

Dehumanised from birth.

The media and government have pushed with all of their might for a "selfish society" where people are more concerned about an extra £5 coming off their own taxes, than they are about other people's children. Of course, they also feel entirely justified in thinking that other people should care about THEIR children...

[Livia]

What she did to her children was horrific... but she's surely mentally ill. And people can be outraged about both things, can't they?

[smudgie]

Those poor kids.
She is one sick bitch.

[Niamh.]

Jesus poor kids, that's some sort of a disease isn't "Munchausen by proxy"? You would wonder just how she managed to fool Doctors into believing her

[user104658]

Jesus poor kids, that's some sort of a disease isn't "Munchausen by proxy"? You would wonder just how she managed to fool Doctors into believing her

It does sound a lot like MbP... and the thing with doctors is that a lot of symptoms aren't acute enough to be noticeable at the time and they have to rely on patients (and care-givers) giving accurate reports of symptoms. For example, say you suffer from painful abdominal pains that come with swelling... but it's in random "attacks" with no specific trigger. You can make a doctors appointment but it can be almost impossible to time it so that they can actually observe anything happening. They just have to believe your account of what it's like and start making diagnostic steps from there.

Also with more severe MbP (which this would definitely be, if it is that) often the carer finds ways to create genuine symptoms that they know will be mistaken for something else, if they spin a different story along with them.


Also if it is MbP then obviously her primary motivation is NOT "to get more benefits money". I'd guess it's more the press spinning that side of it than the courts, though.

[Niamh.]

It does sound a lot like MbP... and the thing with doctors is that a lot of symptoms aren't acute enough to be noticeable at the time and they have to rely on patients (and care-givers) giving accurate reports of symptoms. For example, say you suffer from painful abdominal pains that come with swelling... but it's in random "attacks" with no specific trigger. You can make a doctors appointment but it can be almost impossible to time it so that they can actually observe anything happening. They just have to believe your account of what it's like and start making diagnostic steps from there.

Also with more severe MbP (which this would definitely be, if it is that) often the carer finds ways to create genuine symptoms that they know will be mistaken for something else, if they spin a different story along with them.


Also if it is MbP then obviously her primary motivation is NOT "to get more benefits money". I'd guess it's more the press spinning that side of it than the courts, though.

Definitely not, to do that to your own kids you have to either be evil or seriously mentally unwell.

I just hope that woman is never allowed to be in charge of children again

[Ammi]

..even though the children are now safer in their homes, it's heart-breaking to think of the adults they'll become and how damaged they'll be..I'm not going to assume any mental illness though with this just because I've known of something similar and realised that there are in the world as well just some really awful people who would do such extremes for personal gain..is that mentally ill as well..?../I don't know but I never found that level of understanding with the situation I knew of, so...also the courts have convicted on what they've convicted on and for those reasons and I assume, considered mental illness...?...

..anyways I don't believe it's in any way illustrative of a UK mindset atm, TS..(but you knew I wouldn't agree..:laugh:..)..the 'dirty looks' which are there from some people are in my experiences only there from a very few judgemental people/or a minority..not just in our school but in every school I know..low income families/travelling families etc have a general excellent support from parents who are more fortunate and that's very much what is passed on to their children as well...

..I have no idea why all of these things 'slipped through a net' of so many people and that's what needs to be so closely looked at because so may cut-backs are being made as well...but sadly, we're far, far too often saying this should never have happened to those children and it'll be closely looked at ..but then again..and again...

[Ammi]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/mother-jailed-for-forcing-children-to-undergo-unnecessary-medica/

In this case. I have friends posting this story on FB going mental about the fraud committed. It seems people care more about some money a person has stolen than the fact that she has put her children through various operations they don't ****ing need? Is this really the state of peoples thinking today? Its actually made me really angry seeing this posted with 'scrounger' DM style comments and NO mention of the poor kids in all of this?!

Yes it is a large amount of fraud but ffs...surely the main issue here is what she put her kids through, not what is in the grand scheme of things really **** all


..it just gives them a focus and projection of their anger and emotions as well though Vicky I think because it's quite unimaginable for most that a parent could do these things and I think hard for many to absorb or fathom in any way...so the focus can often be on something that will release anger....

[Kizzy]

Simple answer is most have been conditioned to see that as the biggest issue... yes before child abuse.

[Vicky.]

What she did to her children was horrific... but she's surely mentally ill. And people can be outraged about both things, can't they?

Sure, however a normal mindset to me would kinda bypass the money side of things and focus on these children, who have been kept in bloody wheelchairs all their lives and fed by a tube?! Its bizarre. Seems a monumental amount of ****ups from everyone involved...sicne when are operations done without confirming they are needed ffs..I had endless ultrasounds and even an mri before they decided to take my gallbladder out (and nearly kill me in the process..) so this all makes no sense. As Cherie said too it takes so much work to get an autism diagnosis too...and asthma is EASY to check up on also...

Also my main point was people not even bothering to think of anything besides the fraud. That to me really shows someone completely lacking empathy..a few someones infact

[Vicky.]

It does sound a lot like MbP... and the thing with doctors is that a lot of symptoms aren't acute enough to be noticeable at the time and they have to rely on patients (and care-givers) giving accurate reports of symptoms. For example, say you suffer from painful abdominal pains that come with swelling... but it's in random "attacks" with no specific trigger. You can make a doctors appointment but it can be almost impossible to time it so that they can actually observe anything happening. They just have to believe your account of what it's like and start making diagnostic steps from there.


This sounds kinda like me, though there have been times they have caught the pain WHEN I am there but still nothing shows up besides blood tests showing 'inflammation' which infuriates them as obviously they cannot find WHAT is inflamed to cause so much pain :laugh:

I cannot for a second believe they would operate on me without some form of proof it was needed though

[user104658]

This sounds kinda like me, though there have been times they have caught the pain WHEN I am there but still nothing shows up besides blood tests showing 'inflammation' which infuriates them as obviously they cannot find WHAT is inflamed to cause so much pain [emoji23]

I cannot for a second believe they would operate on me without some form of proof it was needed though
Don't be so sure - The NHS will have your gallbladder out before you can say "but that's not even where the pain was" :joker:.

[Kizzy]

Don't be so sure - The NHS will have your gallbladder out before you can say "but that's not even where the pain was" :joker:.

Yep... they have mine :(

[Marsh.]

Don't be so sure - The NHS will have your gallbladder out before you can say "but that's not even where the pain was" :joker:.

Yep... they have mine :(

Sweet Jesus. :joker:

[Livia]

Sure, however a normal mindset to me would kinda bypass the money side of things and focus on these children, who have been kept in bloody wheelchairs all their lives and fed by a tube?! Its bizarre. Seems a monumental amount of ****ups from everyone involved...sicne when are operations done without confirming they are needed ffs..I had endless ultrasounds and even an mri before they decided to take my gallbladder out (and nearly kill me in the process..) so this all makes no sense. As Cherie said too it takes so much work to get an autism diagnosis too...and asthma is EASY to check up on also...

Also my main point was people not even bothering to think of anything besides the fraud. That to me really shows someone completely lacking empathy..a few someones infact

Who is not bothering to think of the children, just the fraud? I didn't get that from the article at all. Benefit fraud of £375,000 was included in her charges, quite rightly, because she stole it, but what I got from that article was the suffering she put her own children through.

[user104658]

Who is not bothering to think of the children, just the fraud? I didn't get that from the article at all. Benefit fraud of £375,000 was included in her charges, quite rightly, because she stole it, but what I got from that article was the suffering she put her own children through.

OP did say that it's the social media reaction to the article (FB, Twitter et al.) that has mad her angry, not the article itself.

I guess we're taking her word for it as we obviously can't see her social media pages or the comments she's talking about... but for what it's worth I can easily believe it. I essentially don't use social networking at all, because comments people make on their FB pages etc. have made me intensely dislike pretty much everyone I've ever known :joker:.

[Vicky.]

Don't be so sure - The NHS will have your gallbladder out before you can say "but that's not even where the pain was" :joker:.

They have my gallbladder already. And I am still suffering the effects of them ****ing it up too :bored: TBF to them though, they didn't take it until they confirmed I had gallstones. Although it was clearly not the gallstones causing the pain as 10 months on, I get the same pain, but now with added nerve pain from the operation**** up. Oh joy :D

[Vicky.]

Who is not bothering to think of the children, just the fraud? I didn't get that from the article at all. Benefit fraud of £375,000 was included in her charges, quite rightly, because she stole it, but what I got from that article was the suffering she put her own children through.

Not the article itself :p

Was posted by a 'friend', reposted by 2 others all moaning about the mount of fraud and the 'taxpayer' (funnily enough one of these people is currently out of work themselves which makes the moaning about tax a bit funnier) and not one mention of the main issue here. All about the money...sad.

[user104658]

Not the article itself :p

Was posted by a 'friend', reposted by 2 others all moaning about the mount of fraud and the 'taxpayer' (funnily enough one of these people is currently out of work themselves which makes the moaning about tax a bit funnier) and not one mention of the main issue here. All about the money...sad.

No no, the people who complain the MOST about "wasted tax money" are invariably the ones who don't actually pay any tax. The number of people I hear complaining about Eastern European migrants (in full time employment!) because they get child benefits etc., talking about "their tax money", when I know for a fact that they haven't paid tax for decades...

[Livia]

Not the article itself :p

Was posted by a 'friend', reposted by 2 others all moaning about the mount of fraud and the 'taxpayer' (funnily enough one of these people is currently out of work themselves which makes the moaning about tax a bit funnier) and not one mention of the main issue here. All about the money...sad.

Oooohhhh I see. I was confused.

Frankly I think the woman should be spayed.

[user104658]

Oooohhhh I see. I was confused.

Frankly I think the woman should be spayed.

She certainly shouldn't be allowed to have children in her care again under any circumstances... especially if it is a disorder like Msbp. It's a compulsive disorder so the fear of punishment isn't going to deter it, and even her being completely sure that she would never do it again isn't any guarantee that she wouldn't end up hurting another child once back in that position. Definitely not worth the risk.

[Niamh.]

Oooohhhh I see. I was confused.

Frankly I think the woman should be spayed.

She certainly shouldn't be allowed to have children in her care again under any circumstances... especially if it is a disorder like Msbp. It's a compulsive disorder so the fear of punishment isn't going to deter it, and even her being completely sure that she would never do it again isn't any guarantee that she wouldn't end up hurting another child once back in that position. Definitely not worth the risk.

Absolutely agree with these, whether it's a mental illness or not, no children should ever be allowed anywhere near her again

[Vicky.]

Oooohhhh I see. I was confused.

Frankly I think the woman should be spayed.

I would agree with this tbh, though no doubt someone will be along soon to point out how forced sterilization would be a breach of her human rights :D

[user104658]

I would agree with this tbh, though no doubt someone will be along soon to point out how forced sterilization would be a breach of her human rights :D

Weeell any medical procedure can have complications and I don't think we want to go down the route of enforcing any procedure. I know that's exactly what she's done to her children but I don't believe that "an eye for an eye" is OK when it can possibly set a worrying precedent.

So I would say that sterilizing her is a step to far, but if she was to have any children again she certainly shouldn't get custody of them.

[Vicky.]

Weeell any medical procedure can have complications and I don't think we want to go down the route of enforcing any procedure. I know that's exactly what she's done to her children but I don't believe that "an eye for an eye" is OK when it can possibly set a worrying precedent.

So I would say that sterilizing her is a step to far, but if she was to have any children again she certainly shouldn't get custody of them.

We have a huge lack of places to put said future children though, and its not fair on the child IMO either for their parent to continue having kids and having them swiped by SS and shoved into a home upon their birth :S

Unfortunately I find it highly likely she will do her sentence and come out and keep reporoducing. All it takes is for one crappy judge to overrule something like this too (like in the recent case where the judge overruled an abusive parent being banned from having his kid...and then the kid died as a result)

[Maru]

Not the article itself :p

Was posted by a 'friend', reposted by 2 others all moaning about the mount of fraud and the 'taxpayer' (funnily enough one of these people is currently out of work themselves which makes the moaning about tax a bit funnier) and not one mention of the main issue here. All about the money...sad.

Vicky, I noticed what you're saying on some comment sections (especially local media). There will be some blatant injustice and it will be overlooked because oh, this person must be poor (hint: skin color) and therefore they must be draining the system dry.... those comments usually fall in line with some sort of political affiliation.

I see those things posted by some people on FB. FB is an inevitable dumptruck of drama and excrement. I felt personally victimized when loading my feed. :laugh: Eventually 50% of my feed was "turned off". A vast majority of it is an unnecessary expulsion of personal details that is not only nobody's real business, but is an attention seeking invitation to strangers to come "deal with" people's personal complexes. When I moved back home years ago, I dropped my personal FB and have never looked back. It's only a necessary evil for work now.

On topic, I read a story a while back about a lady who was creating issues with her kids for attention on her blog. Might be the same lady who drugging her child with sodium to put them in the hospital. The continuing care and surgeries alone here would put most people in crushing debt so I guess it is a deterrent of sorts... disability doesn't pay that well. It's easier to "invent" an issue and open a Gofundme and receive donations from family and friends than to try to game the medical system.