Ricky Gervias on Religion. Is there anything here you disagree with?

[Crimson Dynamo]

uWF-FcXRkxo

Is there anything here that you would disagree with?

:think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

ignore the YOutube title as that is just one persons take and not the title of the interview etc

[Niamh.]

Will give it a watch on my lunch break, I'm a big fan of his though

[Niamh.]

watched it, I agree with him for the most part. The agnostic question has given me some food for thought though :think:

[Kizzy]

You may incur the wrath of the indoctrinated LT... best polish your best moral armour. I'm not his biggest fan but it's an interesting area for satirical comedy, anything that gets people thinking for themselves as opposed to a collective is ok in my book (the gospel according to St Kizz)

[Crimson Dynamo]

watched it, I agree with him for the most part. The agnostic question has given me some food for thought though :think:

im sort of either way on that bit

[Niamh.]

im sort of either way on that bit

Yeah, in the past I would have said I was agnostic, now though I don't like having to label myself in anyway really. I just want to be a person living their life :laugh: I suppose though I wouldn't say his view on agnostics is right imo because all they're really saying is I don't know how the world started (if there ever was a start) so I'm open to the possibility that it could have been made by a deity of some sort?

[Walter White]

I don't agree with him on agnosticism but everything else he said makes sense. I'm an antitheist. Religion is the worst thing that ever happened to this species IMO. I hope to live to see the day when we ALL see sense!

[Cherie]

I don't agree with him on agnosticism but everything else he said makes sense. I'm an antitheist. Religion is the worst thing that ever happened to this species IMO. I hope to live to see the day when we ALL see sense!

With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

[Niamh.]

With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

[Cherie]

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

:clap2:

[the truth]

With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

The only post I agree with here , spot on

As for gervais hes a brilliant comedy mind, religion is by far his weakest subject as he ends up always going for the cheap shot, the cheap laugh and the obvious cynicism. I really think his thoughts in this area lack and insight and compassion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The only post I agree with here , spot on

As for gervais hes a brilliant comedy mind, religion is by far his weakest subject as he ends up always going for the cheap shot, the cheap laugh and the obvious cynicism. I really think his thoughts in this area lack and insight and compassion.

But where was he wrong?

[Alf]

I'll give it a watch when I sober up tomorrow. Not in any state to comment on this now.

[the truth]

But where was he wrong?

his whole attitude and approach is wrong, its judgemental tedious mean spirited on the whole, attention seeking, hypocritical and condescending...he tries to over simplify and put into a box the billions who believe in a God or a greater being.if people want to believe in a God or superior being good for them. what people believe in is none of my business or gervaises. He doesnt come to it from a good place...now billy connolly a man of profound sincerity and a heart the size of texas approaches these subjects differently, he rips the piss out of anything and everything , yet remains open minded and benevolent soul...just seeing him getting highwith the navajo indians and running around naked in the desert was proof enough of that lol....gervais becomes quite sad and cynical when discussing religion. i remmeber well him sneer at kevin kline when discussing religion and beliefs in a greater being and wonderment at creation. its ironic too because gervais is more preachy than any comic ive ever known. hes far better in character playing a smug deluded buffooon...strange how hes soo great at playing that role...leave the real great comedy to billy, louis ck, richard pryor and larry david, etc

[user104658]

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it
Indeed, as in South Park when Cartman goes to the future, where the United Atheist Alliance is fighting against the Unified Atheist League.

I've sort of come around to that way of thinking with regards to being antitheist... People will always find things to follow with dogma and reasons to **** each other up. Might as well let people have their pretty fairytales if they're inclined to believe them and gain some comfort from them... Even if I know that it's certainly nonsense.

[Cherie]

Indeed, as in South Park when Cartman goes to the future, where the United Atheist Alliance is fighting against the Unified Atheist League.

I've sort of come around to that way of thinking with regards to being antitheist... People will always find things to follow with dogma and reasons to **** each other up. Might as well let people have their pretty fairytales if they're inclined to believe them and gain some comfort from them... Even if I know that it's certainly nonsense.

Or you could have just quoted my post as I said more or less the same thing ::hee:

[user104658]

Or you could have just quoted my post as I said more or less the same thing ::hee:
I prefer Niamh though :hee:

[Cherie]

I prefer Niamh though :hee:


I'm so gutted

[Kizzy]

TS has to suck bum these days to keep from having his controversial ass booted Cherie ;)
Belief in god and religion are inextricably linked, it's this that needs to be questioned It's perfectly acceptable to have one without the other without silly labels like agnostic.

[Cherie]

TS has to suck ass these days to keep from having his controversial ass booted Cherie ;)
Belief in god and religion are inextricably linked, it's this that needs to be questioned It's perfectly acceptable to have one without the other without silly labels like agnostic.


:joker: it's one of the things that amuses me about TiBB, who needs BB, the psychology on TiBB is endlessly amusing :laugh:

[Kizzy]

:joker: it's one of the things that amuses me about TiBB, who needs BB, the psychology on TiBB is endlessly amusing :laugh:

innit tho? ;)

[user104658]

TS has to suck bum these days to keep from having his controversial ass booted Cherie ;)
Belief in god and religion are inextricably linked, it's this that needs to be questioned It's perfectly acceptable to have one without the other without silly labels like agnostic.
I've got Niamh in my pocket and I'm working on Vicky. Dezzy's been getting a little shaky though, one to watch there :suspect:. Thankfully they'll never figure out my nefarious scheme.

[Johnnyuk123]

his whole attitude and approach is wrong, its judgemental tedious mean spirited on the whole, attention seeking, hypocritical and condescending...he tries to over simplify and put into a box the billions who believe in a God or a greater being.if people want to believe in a God or superior being good for them. what people believe in is none of my business or gervaises. He doesnt come to it from a good place...now billy connolly a man of profound sincerity and a heart the size of texas approaches these subjects differently, he rips the piss out of anything and everything , yet remains open minded and benevolent soul...just seeing him getting highwith the navajo indians and running around naked in the desert was proof enough of that lol....gervais becomes quite sad and cynical when discussing religion. i remmeber well him sneer at kevin kline when discussing religion and beliefs in a greater being and wonderment at creation. its ironic too because gervais is more preachy than any comic ive ever known. hes far better in character playing a smug deluded buffooon...strange how hes soo great at playing that role...leave the real great comedy to billy, louis ck, richard pryor and larry david, etc

This too can be said of many religious people.

[Kizzy]

I've got Niamh in my pocket and I'm working on Vicky. Dezzy's been getting a little shaky though, one to watch there :suspect:. Thankfully they'll never figure out my nefarious scheme.

Dezzy? That pussy cat! Putty in my hands mate, putty in my hands :)

[user104658]

Dezzy? That pussy cat! Putty in my hands mate, putty in my hands :)
Not a bear fan though. Not a bear fan whatsoever :umm2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've got Niamh in my pocket and I'm working on Vicky. Dezzy's been getting a little shaky though, one to watch there :suspect:. Thankfully they'll never figure out my nefarious scheme.

If you have neem in your pocket then expect her to rip off your bollocks and stuff them so far down your throat you will need to darn both socks

:omgno:

[user104658]

If you have neem in your pocket then expect her to rip off your bollocks and stuff them so far down your throat you will need to darn both socks

:omgno:
Personal experience LT?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Personal experience LT?

:fan:

[the truth]

This too can be said of many religious people.
it can be said of loads of idiots regardless of religion

[the truth]

gervais as always ignores the billions christian churces raise for the poor and impoverished the missionary work across the planet, the hope and inspiration they provide to billions, the food, the shelter, the spiritual nourishment....this of course doesnt sell newspapers at the daily mail

[Ammi]

With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

...this really, it's the person themselves and their leaning to how they want to interpret, rather than a faith or religion itself ...if someone is prejudice/intolerant/judgemental/hate-filled etc...they would be that anyway, regardless of whether they had religion in their lives or not because it's just them and their focus in life and in their hearts and the same with the opposite as well..people are not good people because of a religion and being 'Christians' or anything, they're just good people regardless, who happen to have a faith ....'God says I need to hate these people' is just a need to find a justification for hate....but that 'justification' would always be something...

[Crimson Dynamo]

gervais as always ignores the billions christian churces raise for the poor and impoverished the missionary work across the planet, the hope and inspiration they provide to billions, the food, the shelter, the spiritual nourishment....this of course doesnt sell newspapers at the daily mail

same could be said of any charity, nothing to do with religion specifically

some humans like doing good as it makes them feel good

[Niamh.]

I prefer Niamh though :hee:

10 more brownie points for TS :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

10 more brownie points for TS :hee:

Not TS coming for Marsh's BP crown in a late unexpected bid

:omgno:

[Niamh.]

Not TS coming for Marsh's BP crown in a late unexpected bid

:omgno:

Marsh has been slacking off lately

[Cherie]

10 more brownie points for TS :hee:

Deduct 20 for plagiarising my post, adding a few words of his own and passing it off as his own :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Marsh has been slacking off lately

Iv never heard it called slacking off, must be an irish term

:think:

[Jamie89]

With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

My thoughts exactly. When people claim that religion causes problems, whilst at the same time saying they aren't religious, there's something that doesn't quite add up there. Because if you're basically saying that religion is man made, but you blame the religion instead of the man for the associated problems, that doesn't make any sense to me. How can a religion tell a man to act violently, if it's the man that has created the religion? Violence or social problems etc that are related to religion... it's essentially just humans being cruel to each other and well, like has been said, take religion out of the equation and we'd just find another excuse to attack each other. It's human nature. The way I see religion (and I'm massively oversimplifying it but) is essentially like a social group, and targeting the group as a whole for problems contained within it and laying blame on the religion itself instead of the people is superfluous. (It also ignores/undermines all the positive aspects of religion which although I'm not religious myself, I do think exist.)

[Crimson Dynamo]

My thoughts exactly. When people claim that religion causes problems, whilst at the same time saying they aren't religious, there's something that doesn't quite add up there. Because if you're basically saying that religion is man made, but you blame the religion instead of the man for the associated problems, that doesn't make any sense to me. How can a religion tell a man to act violently, if it's the man that has created the religion? Violence or social problems etc that are related to religion... it's essentially just humans being cruel to each other and well, like has been said, take religion out of the equation and we'd just find another excuse to attack each other. It's human nature. The way I see religion (and I'm massively oversimplifying it but) is essentially like a social group, and targeting the group as a whole for problems contained within it and laying blame on the religion itself instead of the people is superfluous. (It also ignores/undermines all the positive aspects of religion which although I'm not religious myself, I do think exist.)

The violence happens when you create a fictional all powerful being that supersedes human law and scientific knowledge and then use that to justify murder. Telling children that this being is real is the real crime

No one is killing people and shouting Kate Lawler is Great

[Niamh.]

My thoughts exactly. When people claim that religion causes problems, whilst at the same time saying they aren't religious, there's something that doesn't quite add up there. Because if you're basically saying that religion is man made, but you blame the religion instead of the man for the associated problems, that doesn't make any sense to me. How can a religion tell a man to act violently, if it's the man that has created the religion? Violence or social problems etc that are related to religion... it's essentially just humans being cruel to each other and well, like has been said, take religion out of the equation and we'd just find another excuse to attack each other. It's human nature. The way I see religion (and I'm massively oversimplifying it but) is essentially like a social group, and targeting the group as a whole for problems contained within it and laying blame on the religion itself instead of the people is superfluous. (It also ignores/undermines all the positive aspects of religion which although I'm not religious myself, I do think exist.)

Absolutely there's been loads of good done under the name of Religion but equally it has been horrendously abused. Speaking specifically for what the Catholic church did in Ireland, the abuse of their power here was unforgivable, thankfully we're finally shaking it off now (although not 100% there yet)

[user104658]

Deduct 20 for plagiarising my post, adding a few words of his own and passing it off as his own :hehe:

It's not plagiarism Cherie, we must just think along the same lines I guess.

I didn't read your post. :joker:

[Jamie89]

The violence happens when you create a fictional all powerful being that supersedes human law and scientific knowledge and then use that to justify murder. Telling children that this being is real is the real crime

No one is killing people and shouting Kate Lawler is Great

Not the best analogy tbh but if someone did, would you blame the producers of Big Brother or the person who did the killing?

[user104658]

Not the best analogy tbh but if someone did, would you blame the producers of Big Brother or the person who did the killing?

Trick question; people would find a way to blame Bear.

[Niamh.]

Trick question; people would find a way to blame Bear.

Jim's Fault

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/26/article-0-1AEFF76800000578-897_306x409.jpg

[Cherie]

It's not plagiarism Cherie, we must just think along the same lines I guess.

I didn't read your post. :joker:


So you only read Niamh's post in a post where she quoted me? How bizarre :joker:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
With or without religion human being will still want to **** on one another power, money and status and wanting control are Gods for a lot more people than Religious Deities.

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

[Cherie]

My thoughts exactly. When people claim that religion causes problems, whilst at the same time saying they aren't religious, there's something that doesn't quite add up there. Because if you're basically saying that religion is man made, but you blame the religion instead of the man for the associated problems, that doesn't make any sense to me. How can a religion tell a man to act violently, if it's the man that has created the religion? Violence or social problems etc that are related to religion... it's essentially just humans being cruel to each other and well, like has been said, take religion out of the equation and we'd just find another excuse to attack each other. It's human nature. The way I see religion (and I'm massively oversimplifying it but) is essentially like a social group, and targeting the group as a whole for problems contained within it and laying blame on the religion itself instead of the people is superfluous. (It also ignores/undermines all the positive aspects of religion which although I'm not religious myself, I do think exist.)


Agree with all that Jamie

[jaxie]

Very interesting monologue from Ricky Gervaise. I agree with a lot of what he says.

I used to work with a woman who was a church attendee and it came in a conversation once in a group at work that I wasn't a believer. I didn't care that she went to church and wanted to believe if it gave her comfort but she cared very much that I didn't believe and often made an issue of it to me. Odd really.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not the best analogy tbh but if someone did, would you blame the producers of Big Brother or the person who did the killing?

In the religious setting both the religion that teaches children that superhuman beings exist and heaven exists and the idiots who murder believing it are equally culpable

[user104658]

Very interesting monologue from Ricky Gervaise. I agree with a lot of what he says.

I used to work with a woman who was a church attendee and it came in a conversation once in a group at work that I wasn't a believer. I didn't care that she went to church and wanted to believe if it gave her comfort but she cared very much that I didn't believe and often made an issue of it to me. Odd really.

My wife has a friend who is very religious - more religious, it turns out, than we thought for years. We knew she was a believer etc. but thought it was in a more casual way, but have realized over the years that she's actually full-on God Squad (my wife helped the family to move house recently, along with a number of "Church people", and after they were all done and having tea in the kitchen... the conversation immediately turned to how awesome God and Jesus are :umm2: ).

But yes, she has recently started admitting that she "worries about" us and her other non-religious friends... like actively gets upset sometimes about the fact that we won't get into heaven. Which I suppose is nice 'n' all but... please.

[user104658]

In the religious setting both the religion that teaches children that superhuman beings exist and heaven exists and the idiots who murder believing it are equally culpable

Even at the very most basic level... the people who actively carry out acts of violence know - either for certain, or with very high probability - that they are not going to come out of it alive. I am utterly convinced that there would be very few lining up to be the ones with bombs on their chests or AK's on their backs if they realised that they actually get naught after death. Literally nothing. Fin.

Not just jihadists either. Most "legitimate" armed forces across the world have pushed the same angle throughout history, from the Holy Roman Empire to the US Military, and for the same reasons. Convince a soldier that there's an afterlife and he will automatically fight harder.

[Cherie]

My wife has a friend who is very religious - more religious, it turns out, than we thought for years. We knew she was a believer etc. but thought it was in a more casual way, but have realized over the years that she's actually full-on God Squad (my wife helped the family to move house recently, along with a number of "Church people", and after they were all done and having tea in the kitchen... the conversation immediately turned to how awesome God and Jesus are :umm2: ).

But yes, she has recently started admitting that she "worries about" us and her other non-religious friends... like actively gets upset sometimes about the fact that we won't get into heaven. Which I suppose is nice 'n' all but... please.

That's her choice as long as she isn't actively trying to convert you or becoming a nuisance then I don't see the issue

[user104658]

That's her choice as long as she isn't actively trying to convert you or becoming a nuisance then I don't see the issue

It creeps me out :shrug:. I don't like the idea of people "praying for me".

[Cherie]

It creeps me out :shrug:. I don't like the idea of people "praying for me".

We have no control over other peoples feelings towards us, so aside from telling her straight to stop and her honouring your wishes you will just have to live with your soul being saved :laugh:

[bots]

lets all pray (prey) for TS's soul :cheer2:

[Niamh.]

lets all pray (prey) for TS's soul :cheer2:

There's no such thing as a soul :hee:

[user104658]

There's no such thing as a soul :hee:

And if there is, mine is long lost :hehe:

[Niamh.]

And if there is, mine is long lost :hehe:

Toy Souldier

[user104658]

We have no control over other peoples feelings towards us, so aside from telling her straight to stop and her honouring your wishes you will just have to live with your soul being saved :laugh:

Well apparently it's futile anyway! You have to actually become a Christian to get in, even if all of the other Christians vouch for you :fist:. Maybe she's praying for us to become Christians?

[user104658]

Toy Souldier

Soulja boy tell 'em.

[Livia]

He was posed a lot of leading questions and he answered them with a certainty that only someone who doesn't have a faith would answer. I was unaware that Gervais was qualified to speak about the workings of other people's mind, I thought he was a comedian. Anyhoo... interesting and amusing opinions... and that's what they were... opinions. And he's entitled to them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

my thoughts and prayers are with TS's wife

every time he climbs aboard ha


:omgno:

[user104658]

my thoughts and prayers are with TS's wife

every time he climbs aboard ha


:omgno:

It is pretty huge.

[jaxie]

It is pretty huge.

:facepalm:

[jaxie]

He was posed a lot of leading questions and he answered them with a certainty that only someone who doesn't have a faith would answer. I was unaware that Gervais was qualified to speak about the workings of other people's mind, I thought he was a comedian. Anyhoo... interesting and amusing opinions... and that's what they were... opinions. And he's entitled to them.

He was giving his views and opinion, I didn't see him claiming to be anyones head or that he was qualified to. Though I'd be more worried about those who think they are qualified to tell you there is a god. Or speak for one and declare what said deity thinks you should be/do.

[user104658]

:facepalm:

I can see you peeking :smug:

[waterhog]

not even going to watch video - I disagree with this guy as I don't find him funny at all.

[Maru]

It creeps me out :shrug:. I don't like the idea of people "praying for me".

Quick, someone form a TiBB group, "Actively Praying for TS' Soul" :laugh::laugh:

[the truth]

not even going to watch video - I disagree with this guy as I don't find him funny at all.

hes brilliant at playing the role of a deluded buffoon , strange that

[Maru]

his whole attitude and approach is wrong, its judgemental tedious mean spirited on the whole, attention seeking, hypocritical and condescending...he tries to over simplify and put into a box the billions who--

This too can be said of many religious people.

I've seen some atheists who are just as intolerant and bigoted as some religious folk. I'm surprised to see it so often coming from the atheist side but admittedly it's helluva a lot easier to troll religious followers than it is to troll most any other group. If you love trolling people and happen to be atheist, then it's a tempting buffet of self-amusement. :laugh:

Personally, it's easier to just judge people according to what they do and the values they represent through those actions rather than they go what they actually (or claim to) believe or the # of degrees they've obtained. Usually for the sake of flaunting said belief in lieu of various personal flaws...

In the end, what they do or don't believe has no real bearing for me if the actual person is a horrible human being... life is too short to waste time on it. Most people who quit religion or start a religion do so for personal reasons, which is not really our business unless they somehow make it our personal issue. Things like trauma, chronic harassment, mass suicides, war or murder are problems... not trite things like someone said something religious today and you felt funny.

In that vein, I love watching cult documentaries on things like Scientology and the FLDS. Both groups are ****ed up, but even more interesting how they rope people into their cults and shape the beliefs of their followers. How the US still puts up with Scientology's crap, I don't know, but they managed to beat the IRS for non-profit status... even though there's ample evidence it's nothing more than a pyramid scheme to separate people from their money.

[armand.kay]

Yeah, Power really is the root of all evil, organised religion (in my humble opinion of course) is just a tool that humans used to gain power over people, if that goes no doubt something else would replace it

Completely agree with this even science has been used as justification for some of the most heinous acts.

[Niamh.]

I've seen some atheists who are just as intolerant and bigoted as some religious folk. I'm surprised to see it so often coming from the atheist side but admittedly it's helluva a lot easier to troll religious followers than it is to troll most any other group. If you love trolling people and happen to be atheist, then it's a tempting buffet of self-amusement. :laugh:

Personally, it's easier to just judge people according to what they do and the values they represent through those actions rather than they go what they actually (or claim to) believe or the # of degrees they've obtained. Usually for the sake of flaunting said belief in lieu of various personal flaws...

In the end, what they do or don't believe has no real bearing for me if the actual person is a horrible human being... life is too short to waste time on it. Most people who quit religion or start a religion do so for personal reasons, which is not really our business unless they somehow make it our personal issue. Things like trauma, chronic harassment, mass suicides, war or murder are problems... not trite things like someone said something religious today and you felt funny.

In that vein, I love watching cult documentaries on things like Scientology and the FLDS. Both groups are ****ed up, but even more interesting how they rope people into their cults and shape the beliefs of their followers. How the US still puts up with Scientology's crap, I don't know, but they managed to beat the IRS for non-profit status... even though there's ample evidence it's nothing more than a pyramid scheme to separate people from their money.

Oh I went through a phase of being totally obsessed with Scientology, so bizarre :laugh:

But what makes Scientology and "cults" any different from other religions though? Scientologists shape the beliefs of their followers? so does every other religion :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Mormonism and Scientology are two modern cults

the only difference betwixt them and say Judaism or Islam is time

[Jamie89]

Oh I went through a phase of being totally obsessed with Scientology, so bizarre :laugh:

But what makes Scientology and "cults" any different from other religions though? Scientologists shape the beliefs of their followers? so does every other religion :shrug:

I can't recommend "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief" enough. It's a documentary film (about Scientology obviously) and it's brilliant, really eye opening, and quite shocking too, and puts across really well how it's very different from 'normal' religions.

Mormonism and Scientology are two modern cults

the only difference betwixt them and say Judaism or Islam is time

I think there's a lot more to it than that tbh. Mormonism is very new but it still follows the classic pattern of how religions have been set up, and why people become followers etc. Scientology on the other hand is totally separate in my opinion from any other 'religion', especially in it's methods of how it treats people involved in the 'church' but in many other ways too (and shouldn't even be classed as a religion... again, watch "Going Clear" if you haven't seen it, it's great).

[Niamh.]

I can't recommend "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief" enough. It's a documentary film (about Scientology obviously) and it's brilliant, really eye opening, and quite shocking too, and puts across really well how it's very different from 'normal' religions.



I think there's a lot more to it than that tbh. Mormonism is very new but it still follows the classic pattern of how religions have been set up, and why people become followers etc. Scientology on the other hand is totally separate in my opinion from any other 'religion', especially in it's methods of how it treats people involved in the 'church' but in many other ways too (and shouldn't even be classed as a religion... again, watch "Going Clear" if you haven't seen it, it's great).

I may have seen it, I definitely watched a documentary on Scientology but I don't know what it was called. It's ****ed up isn't it? How on earth did they manage to rope massive celebs like Tom Cruise and John Travolta in as well?

[Jamie89]

I may have seen it, I definitely watched a documentary on Scientology but I don't know what it was called. It's ****ed up isn't it? How on earth did they manage to rope massive celebs like Tom Cruise and John Travolta in as well?

They talk about Tom Cruise and John Travolta in the film (and imply they kept them and have them promote the church because of 'information' they have on them)... they basically make their followers divulge secrets and things which they keep on file before allowing them to progress through the ranks of the church and learn the secrets of the church etc... (and they have people employed to use that information to blackmail dissenters) it's all really strange and complicated and I probably can't explain it as well as the film does :laugh: It's all to do with manipulation, control and blackmail though basically. They also have a 'celebrity department' where they have people employed to recruit celebrities... I can't really remeber the ins and outs though, it's been a while since I saw it so I might watch it again :laugh:

[Niamh.]

They talk about Tom Cruise and John Travolta in the film (and imply they kept them and have them promote the church because of 'information' they have on them)... they basically make their followers divulge secrets and things which they keep on file before allowing them to progress through the ranks of the church and learn the secrets of the church etc... (and they have people employed to use that information to blackmail dissenters) it's all really strange and complicated and I probably can't explain it as well as the film does :laugh: It's all to do with manipulation, control and blackmail though basically. They also have a 'celebrity department' where they have people employed to recruit celebrities... I can't really remeber the ins and outs though, it's been a while since I saw it so I might watch it again :laugh:

Yeah that sounds familiar, I think I may have seen it. But what I mean is what on Earth could they actually have on them that are blackmail-able enough to devout their whole life to that crap :shocked:

[Jamie89]

Yeah that sounds familiar, I think I may have seen it. But what I mean is what on Earth could they actually have on them that are blackmail-able enough to devout their whole life to that crap :shocked:

I don't know, I've heard rumours that it's because they're gay though, if it is that they might think that it would ruin their careers/family life etc if it came out.

[Niamh.]

I don't know, I've heard rumours that it's because they're gay though, if it is that they might think that it would ruin their careers/family life etc if it came out.

Meh, is ruining your life by being involved with that group better though? It's not like it's a big deal being gay in this day and age :shrug:

[Jamie89]

Meh, is ruining your life by buying involved with that group better though? It's not like it's a big deal being gay in this day and age :shrug:

I'd say it isn't, but I suppose they could have been brainwashed? Also, say it was true and they came out with it now, and said that they'd only promoted the church because they were being blackmailed etc (assuming it's true obviously) I think it would ruin them. It's not just that they'd be coming out as gay but it's all the lies they'd told to people in promoting the church etc, no one would have any respect for them.

[Livia]

He was giving his views and opinion, I didn't see him claiming to be anyones head or that he was qualified to. Though I'd be more worried about those who think they are qualified to tell you there is a god. Or speak for one and declare what said deity thinks you should be/do.

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

[Niamh.]

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

With all due respect Livia, most people are born into religion so it's not exactly freedom to choose, by the time they're free to choose they've already been brought up being taught their religion is fact so have alot less of a chance of really deciding for themselves on it

[Livia]

With all due respect Livia, most people are born into religion so it's not exactly freedom to choose, by the time they're free to choose they've already been brought up being taught their religion is fact so have alot less of a chance of really deciding for themselves on it

Well, I disagree. From my personal perspective I was never pushed into religion and could have walked away at any time. In fact, most religions don't hold you in handcuffs. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ireland born into Catholicism who don't practise now. And that's fine if that's what they want. No one should be forced to do anything.

[Niamh.]

Well, I disagree. From my personal perspective I was never pushed into religion and could have walked away at any time. In fact, most religions don't hold you in handcuffs. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Ireland born into Catholicism who don't practise now. And that's fine if that's what they want. No one should be forced to do anything.

Sure but still over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and those who identify as atheist/no religion are always bottom of school enrollment lists. I also disagree with you about the free choice involved in religions. I don't know about your personal experience of course but it's not just a coincidence that -as Ricky gervais says in the video- geography plays a huge part in what religion a person will be/if they have a religion at all

[jaxie]

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

Most people are raised within religions so are to a large extent conditioned to belief by those around them unless the god manifested to the individual personally and said believe in me dear. I'm sorry if that offends your feelings but it is a fact that people teach children/people religion. I haven't heard of many people who actually say their god told them to do it and usually those who do are often in prison!

I went to a church school myself and have seen religious conditioning first hand. So while no one is saying people are forced to believe there is definitely someone or someones who puts that faith and way of worship in your head and it isn't god.

I can assure you I haven't suggested anyone is a moron or ridiculed anyone. This conversation began because you seemed to be offended by the link and accused the person in it of things they didn't actually say. All of those things you think are being suggested haven't been. I often find your posts amusing and witty.

I fully respect anyone's right to believe in anything if it makes them happy. I am definitely not the person getting defensive.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most religions don't force you to join, you know. My own religion definitely doesn't and people have been trying to shut us down for 5,000 years.

No one has any definitive proof one way or another so everyone should be free to choose. And people should respect other people's freedom to choose even if they don't respect the religion itself. If people have faith, good for them. If they don't, good for them too. What I object to is the CONSTANT suggestion that people who do have faith are non-thinking, closed-minded morons. Because frankly, I consider myself to be an intelligent being, more than able to hold my own with anyone on this forum... and I have faith. I've never posted a thread ridiculing non-believers. Shame that isn't a two-way street.

Lucky yesterday Ricky did not do that. He just stuck to logic and reason

[Kizzy]

Sure but still over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and those who identify as atheist/no religion are always bottom of school enrollment lists. I also disagree with you about the free choice involved in religions. I don't know about your personal experience of course but it's not just a coincidence that -as Ricky gervais says in the video- geography plays a huge part in what religion a person will be/if they have a religion at all

Exactly I would say in certain religious communities should someone suggest they would like to leave that lifestyle behind for another there would be quite a different reaction from 'Oh , ok then'.
Disaffiliation can and has resulted in being shunned or worse :/

[user104658]

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

[jaxie]

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

I agree with you 100%. This would be a great social experiment would be fascinated to see the outcome of a target group raised with no religious affiliation and then exposed to a choice.

[Maru]

Oh I went through a phase of being totally obsessed with Scientology, so bizarre :laugh:

But what makes Scientology and "cults" any different from other religions though? Scientologists shape the beliefs of their followers? so does every other religion :shrug:

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

[the truth]

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice

[Niamh.]

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

:laugh: Catholicism has mellowed out quite a lot over the years though

[jaxie]

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice

I blame my parents lack of religious indoctrination skills. :shrug:

[Niamh.]

I blame my parents lack of religious indoctrination skills. :shrug:

Same, they failed in their quest although tbh I don't think their own hearts were really in it either :laugh:

[Kizzy]

Uhhh.. the church doesn't call you, stalk you, threaten you, pressure you for hours on end to donate money and will even call the bank for you to get you a line of credit, "expose" you to your family, chase you down for talking bad about them... it's very much voluntary to be in a normal organized religion. If you go and stop showing up, nobody will call you. Scientology and FLDS will try ruin to your life for trying to leave... especially if you don't do it quietly.

You've never heard of Jehovahs witnesses then? ;)

[Crimson Dynamo]

If, starting tomorrow, every baby born was kept in the dark about religion (somehow) until reaching the age of being able to make a rational choice, organised religion would be dead in a generation. Simple as that really. It's kept alive through indoctrination, whether that be subtle low-level immersion from birth or harder conversion later in life.

yes I cant really see young people in their 20s going "hey have you heard about Judaism, i think Im going to get a piece of that bronze age middle eastern cult"

[user104658]

wow so many people here conditioned and brainwashed into radical atheism....these people should have been allowed free choice
I was sent to Sunday School and learned all about Jesus and friends, actually. I just figured out that it was a story eventually. Around the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, I would imagine.

[Kizzy]

There are so many wonders though that are totally ignored by cherry picking religions, you can't ignore the need to record and pass on knowledge from milennia ago.. I hate that that is manipulated to exploit :(

[Crimson Dynamo]

There are so many wonders though that are totally ignored by cherry picking religions, you can't ignore the need to record and pass on knowledge from milennia ago.. I hate that that is manipulated to exploit :(

yes look at the last sentence in the Christian Bible

tells you all you need to know

smh

[the truth]

I was sent to Sunday School and learned all about Jesus and friends, actually. I just figured out that it was a story eventually. Around the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, I would imagine.

yes nothing to learn at all in , sounds like a mis-spent youth..those horrible sunday schools telling stories and raising money for their communities and singing songs about peace and love....theyll be sending missionaries out next to cloth and feed the starving millions...appalling....if only our kids had all started drink and drugs instead

[user104658]

yes nothing to learn at all in , sounds like a mis-spent youth..those horrible sunday schools telling stories and raising money for their communities and singing songs about peace and love....theyll be sending missionaries out next to cloth and feed the starving millions...appalling....if only our kids had all started drink and drugs instead
Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.

[Maru]

:laugh: Catholicism has mellowed out quite a lot over the years though

Maybe where you're at it's different. Here there's never been any substantial pressure above a few comments here and there... unless people happen to run into an uber church going family in their circle who sees them as their meal ticket to heaven/ego boost, but it's not like FLDS/Scientology level pressure and dogma...

For me the difference is it being voluntary versus being brainwashed/forced. Outside of your family home (if they even practice), I would say most institutions, like a school, are atheist. For example, most teachers who have ever vocalized anything about belief, talk about lack of evidence that God exist, etc... so it pretty much cancels itself out.

It's very hard to pressure someone here into a religion nowadays without it becoming synonymous with a cult. There is no church of the US :laugh:

[the truth]

Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.
what does it matter if its true or not if it saves billions?

[kirklancaster]

Usual issue you have with it truth and my response is the same as ever: the fact that many churches do many good things, does not make any of the fairytales true. Wanting something to be real does not make it so.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:

:laugh:

The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

[jaxie]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:

:laugh:

The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

Having some history in the Bible doesn't make god real. Not seeing your point here Kirk. :shrug:

[user104658]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

And just in case anyone missed the others:

:laugh:

The Cumaen Sibyl? The Delphian Oracle? Cassandra? Who the hell are THEY?

We have our very own, all seeing, all knowing, Oracle on Tibb, and now that you have absolutely decreed that all religions are based upon 'fairytales', and emphatically answered THE greatest enigma ever to perplex the greatest philosophers throughout mankind's history - whether God exists or not - we can ALL be enlightened.

But your decree creates a further enigma in my mind:

Does your 'Scientific Rationalism' only apply where it suits your own agenda?

I mean;

Has 'science' categorically PROVEN that God does NOT exist? Err...... NO.

Is 'science' continually PROVING that many of the narratives in both the Old AND New Testaments are based on some FACT? Err...... YES.

The answer to the first question above, renders your 'statement' then, in the post I have quoted, no MORE than mere OPINION, no more or less credible than anyone else's opinion - Believers or non-Believers.

And - unless, YOU are the very omnipotent God whom you spend so much time denying in your posts - it is an opinion no more qualified than most other people's, and one which is CERTAINLY a lot less qualified than some --- In MY opinion, of course.

:shrug: Getting underhandedly personal to defend your "beliefs". Neither unusual nor unexpected. Still petty and boring, sneering, and mocking. If this is the outcome of your religion, you're welcome to it my friend.

[Niamh.]

Maybe where you're at it's different. Here there's never been any substantial pressure above a few comments here and there... unless people happen to run into an uber church going family in their circle who sees them as their meal ticket to heaven/ego boost, but it's not like FLDS/Scientology level pressure and dogma...

For me the difference is it being voluntary versus being brainwashed/forced. Outside of your family home (if they even practice), I would say most institutions, like a school, are atheist. For example, most teachers who have ever vocalized anything about belief, talk about lack of evidence that God exist, etc... so it pretty much cancels itself out.

It's very hard to pressure someone here into a religion nowadays without it becoming synonymous with a cult. There is no church of the US :laugh:

It is different here, it certainly has waaaay mellowed out in recent years but over 90% of our "state" run schools are catholic and that is taught in the schools, as fact. If you identify as an atheist/having no religion your child is put below everyone else on the enrollment list eventhough you're paying for the running of that school the same as everyone else

[user104658]

what does it matter if its true or not if it saves billions?

It matters to anyone who can't willfully delude themselves. I've said in the past that I sometimes wish that religion (at its best) was real... it would certainly make life easier and more comfortable to believe in a higher power and an afterlife. There is however absolutely nothing in terms of a logical, rational argument for there being any truth in organised religion. Any attempt inevitably hinges on "faith", which is inherently irrational, by definition. The argument that you "Can't disprove it!!" is no argument at all, considering the list of things that "can't be disproven" is effectively infinite.

The evidence for organised religion being false, on the other hand, is staggering, although religious people will never admit that. The mere fact that there are multiple hundreds of organised religions on this ONE tiny speck of sand in an infinite universe can only lead to the conclusion that the likelihood of one of them, somehow, being correct, is infinitessimally small... which is more than enough to disregard that likelihood as insignificant.

The likelihood of there being SOME sort of intelligent creative force in the universe beyond our comprehension, is a complete unknown, putting the likelihood of THAT at around 50/50. Where people get confused by this, is that they think this statement is the same as saying that "Christianity could be true!", or Islam, or Hinduism, or Scientology. It is not. Organised religion is a human creation used to explain the unknown and the unknowable. Partly for comfort and to keep existential fears at bay, partly simply for power and control. There is no other rational explanation for there being multiple organised religions with specific geographic origins. None.

[Cherie]

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers :hee:, Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me :hehe:


Since the beginning of Austerity in 2010, there has been an exponential rise in the number of British people reliant on food banks to eat. Today, more than a million people find themselves in such circumstances. But now, even the food banks themselves are coming under attack, as looters pillage their supplies to sell or distribute elsewhere.

The most recent attack happened at the Stratford Food Bank located in St Paul’s Church, which was robbed of 80% of its supplies overnight – leaving the food bank unable to meet the challenge of feeding hungry people the following day. Labour MP Lyn Brown announced the robbery on social media.


The Canary contacted St Paul’s church, which confirmed the attack had taken place. Reverend Jeremy Fraser told The Canary that while the attack itself was devastating, “we are seeing it as something which has allowed the local community to come together and do something positive.”

Indeed they did. Twenty churches in the area gathered more than £600 in cash donations, and others in the community, including a local school (Chobham Academy) showed up with bags of food. The community successfully rallied to support both the church, and those reliant on their aid.

The attack on St Paul’s comes just weeks after a Fulham food bank had its windows smashed and supplies stolen. Manager Daphine Aikens told The Chronicle:

It is really sad that somebody was so desperate they felt they had to break into the store room. If they had come and asked we might have been able to help.

It is a sad indictment of our society today that somebody feels they have to steal from the food bank.
Similar attacks have taken place all over the country, including high-profile cases in Newcastle, Reading, and Birmingham.

Britain is hungry. The figures from the Trussell Trust, Britain’s largest network of food banks reveal a staggering rise in emergency food dependency across the country. As shown below, food bank dependency was virtually a non-issue in 2008/9, but now accounts for one in every 60 adults in the UK.

[Niamh.]

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers :hee:, Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me :hehe:

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

[Crimson Dynamo]

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers :hee:, Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me :hehe:

As i am fed up saying

no one cares about people who think Jedi is a real religion, no one cares that people think aliens are real and living on earth or that they killed the dinosaurs and NO ONE will care about religion if it is taken out of schools and politics and off tv and radio

[Cherie]

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church


A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much :laugh:

[Niamh.]

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much :laugh:

I don't think I've said anything like that, have I?

[Cherie]

As i am fed up saying

no one cares about people who think Jedi is a real religion, no one cares that people think aliens are real and living on earth or that they killed the dinosaurs and NO ONE will care about religion if it is taken out of schools and politics and off tv and radio

some one somewhere would care :shrug:

[Cherie]

I don't think I've said anything like that, have I?


No not at all

[Crimson Dynamo]

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much :laugh:

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

[bots]

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant

that's because you have no faith :fist:

[user104658]

It seems to me that some non believers are more bothersome than God Botherers :hee:, Live and let Live, what does it matter if people want to go to Church, for many it's a social occasion as well as finding comfort in it, it's better than hitting the bottle or dabbling in drugs, Church's can also be a focal point for the community as evidenced by the food bank which was robbed in Stratford recently, I hate cricket and don't see any point in it but I don't want it obliterated from the face of the earth to suit me :hehe:

I wouldn't go around churches stopping religious people from doing what they want to do or really comment on it at all uninvited... Like I said we do count a quite heavily Christian amongst our friends and (praying for us aside) it's never been an issue. I also have semi frequent morning chats with an elderly Caribbean lady at the bus stop (7.30am bus :joker: ) who is a Jehovahs Witness. She chats about the weather, and God, and I politely take her leaflets and pretend that I'll have a look at them... Mainly to be fair because I think her accent is awesome :joker:.


However when the debate does come up, it's one that I have fairly strong opinions on, and find interesting. I'm not pushing my beliefs but neither am I going to pretend to think that something I don't believe is likely or possible, in the context of a debate, simply to preserve feelings or insecurities. To be honest, in my opinion, if a religious person finds religion being questioned or discounted hurtful or hard to accept, if it makes them feel bad or angry, then they should probably avoid religious debate...

[Cherie]

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant



People don't need to defend it, why should they explain themselves to people on a forum who would only mock them anyway, explaining themselves is not going to change anyone's mind, the same as non botherers explaining themselves endlessly makes no difference :laugh: Same **** different day with this topic

[user104658]

That is always the cry of the "faithful" but funnily enough do you ever, ever remember anyone on here trying to defend why they believe, maybe explain why praying works, why they think an invisible man is in the sky, how someone who is dead goes to "heaven" etc etc?


because I cant
Well exactly because like I said, you can't deconstruct a religious thought process and break it down into logical steps without at some point encountering the concept of Faith... and Faith is by necessity irrational (not even as a slur... just literally "not rational").

Kirk has tried on many occasions to argue for the validity of religion based on there being proof of events described in the Bible. The problem of course being that no one is denying that the Bible contains plenty of accounts of actual historical events. There seems to be an inability to separate the history from the supernatural, is the issue. Evidence of the physical events occurring are in no way proof of any spiritual / otherworldly / mystical / godly involvement.

[Cherie]

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad :smug: so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

[bots]

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad :smug; so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

Cherie's personal crusade to burn down all foreign churches :worry:

[Niamh.]

I'm not even particularly religious I'm more a Christmas and Easter catholic although I do like to light a candle in churches when I'm abroad :smug; so I don't even know why I'm bothering with the non Botherers

Non botherers :laugh:

My mom is a bit like this, she likes the singing and stuff at mass but she rarely goes either. My dad never goes at all unless its a wedding/funeral. It's weird how they obviously have no interest in religion really yet they forced us to go to mass every Sunday until we were teenagers, then we stopped going and so did they

[Ammi]

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

..I think that's the thing though, or the thing that Ricky was saying in the video...that it's whether it impacts on your life in a very real and negative way and for you it does, in that your children aren't given equal opportunities in schools because of religious reasons...

[jaxie]

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much :laugh:

I can't say I've seen anyone call anyone else in this thread a nutter. :shrug:
Though some people do get defensive.

[jaxie]

I just find the whole thing interesting tbh plus coming from Ireland where it was pretty forced (certainly when I was a child anyway) I think I have every right to speak about it and want some changes here, especially separating schools/the state from the Church

I totally get why you'd want separation of state and church. Shocking that some children are disadvantaged for potential education because their parents aren't interested in religion.

[user104658]

I can't say I've seen anyone call anyone else in this thread a nutter. :shrug:
Though some people do get defensive.
It's full of the usual SD faces though which means it's nutters by default :umm2:.

We'rE aLL MaD heRE!

[Niamh.]

..I think that's the thing though, or the thing that Ricky was saying in the video...that it's whether it impacts on your life in a very real and negative way and for you it does, in that your children aren't given equal opportunities in schools because of religious reasons...

Yeah, also what bothers me (again this is from own personal experiences) is people just carry on with it, like my parents did and I've even done it myself just to make life easier/the kids lives easier. Choosing to have no religion isn't that easy of choice here, I mean you get lots and lots of people who will just go through the motions of baptising their kids just so it's easier to get in schools or so your kid won't be the odd one out etc etc It's not that the Church are forcing them to be Catholic per se but because it's so intertwined in our schools and to some extent the state (although that's much better in recent years) it makes it more difficult to make the choice you really want regarding religion

[Niamh.]

I totally get why you'd want separation of state and church. Shocking that some children are disadvantaged for potential education because their parents aren't interested in religion.

It's absolutely shocking but It will change, there's been a lot of talk and grumblings about that in the last few years

[Ammi]

Yeah, also what bothers me (again this is from own personal experiences) is people just carry on with it, like my parents did and I've even done it myself just to make life easier/the kids lives easier. Choosing to have no religion isn't that easy of choice here, I mean you get lots and lots of people who will just go through the motions of baptising their kids just so it easier to get in schools or so your kid won't be the odd one out etc etc It's not that the Church are forcing them to be Catholic per se but because it's so intertwined in our schools and to some extent the state (although that's much better in recent years) it makes it more difficult to make the choice you really want regarding religion

..so do you declare yourself as a Catholic then, so that your children aren't disadvantaged in their education..?..(I don't know if declare is the right word but..)...

[Niamh.]

..so do you declare yourself as a Catholic then, so that your children aren't disadvantaged in their education..?..(I don't know if declare is the right word but..)...

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

[Ammi]

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

..it's just incredible that it's still such a struggle though with stuff like that with the history of religion in Ireland/things like the Magdalene Laundries and the wrongs and the cruelty/prejudices of it/Catholicism... :sad:..

[Niamh.]

..it's just incredible that it's still such a struggle though with stuff like that with the history of religion in Ireland/things like the Magdalene Laundries and the wrongs and the cruelty/prejudices of it/Catholicism... :sad:..

The problem with the schools is that it was the Catholic church who started most of them up originally, but they don't pay for them now, we the tax payers do and tbh with all the horrible s**t they were responsible for back then, setting up some schools was the least they could give back imo

[Cherie]

Kind of, I mean I always put down in the census No Religion but I did get them baptised and they've made their communions etc but I've always told them from when they started school that eventhough when the teacher teaches you religion and says this stuff is true, I don't believe it is and that you have to think about it yourself and decide what you believe. None of them do believe any of it

I don't understand that though as I knew kids who went through the catholic
school system who were non Catholics and who weren't disadvantaged, they had the same education as everyone else? This was back in the early 90s they just didn't attend RE

[Niamh.]

I don't understand that though as I knew kids who went through the catholic
school system who were non Catholics and who weren't disadvantaged, they had the same education as everyone else? This was back in the early 90s they just didn't attend RE

It is true that children who have no religion are put to the bottom of the lists. And kids shouldn't have to sit out of lessons, they should just not be taught in state schools, they have no place there

I feel really strongly about this actually, religion has no place in schools and there certainly shouldn't be a policy of students having to sit out of part of valuable school time because Religion is being taught or the classes are preparing for masses/confirmations/communions and the latter two take up huge chunks of school time.

[jaxie]

It's full of the usual SD faces though which means it's nutters by default :umm2:.

We'rE aLL MaD heRE!

Did you just call me a nutter? :fist:

[jaxie]

It's absolutely shocking but It will change, there's been a lot of talk and grumblings about that in the last few years

I saw a programme talking about how there seems to be a a change in peoples attitudes to the church in Ireland in recent years. Was very interesting.

[Niamh.]

I saw a programme talking about how there seems to be a a change in peoples attitudes to the church in Ireland in recent years. Was very interesting.

Oh there really is, I can see it myself and I'm sure my parents even more so

[jaxie]

Oh there really is, I can see it myself and I'm sure my parents even more so

It makes me wonder if the change will make unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

[Niamh.]

It makes me wonder if the change will make Unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

No offense here Jaxie but I'm truly shocked everytime a British person makes a comment like that :laugh: The lack of understanding you seem to have about North/South Ireland is baffling. You know the North and South isn't a religious feud. We weren't fighting between eachother to convert eachother or whatever. The reason why so many Protestants in Northern ireland want to stay within the UK is because they were mostly originally from there as that's the most prominent religion in Britain and the reason why most nationalists are catholic is because they were probably mostly originally irish as that was the most prominent religion in Ireland.

have no doubt that Ireland splitting in two and the IRA forming and all the troubles up there, is because Britain invaded our country and when they decided to give it back eventually, split it in two for some reason......it almost seems like it's been pawned off to Irish fighting amongst eachother in some religious war instead of what it actually was, Nationalists wanting Ireland to be one again and Unionists wanting to be British (because they mostly were from Britain anyway originally)

All religion had to do with it really was a way of identifying where your allegiances lay (ie Irish(catholic) V's British(Protestant)

[Cherie]

It makes me wonder if the change will make unification of North and South possible in future if the changes do come about.

The conflict was about land borders and nationality, nothing to do with religion. It just happened most of those wanting a united Ireland were Irish Catholics and most wanting to stay within the Union are English Protestants

[Niamh.]

This article explains it well I think

Northern Ireland was provisioned as a separate territory in 1922. This point of contention between England and the Republic of Ireland turned habitually violent in 1969 with the formation of the IRA (Irish Republican Army), a terror group that was considered to be the armed wing of the Sinn Fein political party, which supports Irish nationalism and Marxist ideology. The violence abated in the mid-1990's with an agreement between the sides.

Although it's popular to think of this chapter in the conflict as Catholic versus Protestant, it is also simplistic and misleading. The IRA does not stand for "Catholic Army." Historians and political scientists usually describe the two sides with words like Nationalist, Republican, Ulster, Loyalist and Unionist. Even the religious sectarian labels often did not hold up. Protestants were found on both sides of the conflict, for example, and there were notable Catholics who remained loyal to England.

The IRA did not have a Biblical charter. In fact, they were a Marxist-atheist organization. Neither did the British government have religious motives, nor any of the other major groups. There were some smaller, radical groups that used the language of religious purity, but they were relatively obscure. The issue for the "Catholic" factions was Irish nationalism, and for the "Protestants" it was self-preservation and an end to the violence. Only a very small minority of the citizens in Northern Ireland actually participated in the conflict, although the grief was spread among many.

Church leaders on both sides routinely condemned the violence - in fact, the Catholic church excommunicated members of the IRA. The claims of responsibility for the bombings and assassinations did not typically quote from the Bible or make reference to God. (Muslim terrorists quote liberally from the Quran in their statements, and are very explicit about their battle for the cause of Islam).

Neither was there any expressed interest on the part of either side in the Northern Ireland conflict to convert unbelievers or spread sectarian beliefs beyond the disputed area. Protestant clerics in Ireland weren't targeted by Irish Catholics (for being clerics) and neither were priests in England by English Protestants. Religious affiliation was a loose marker of identity, but there were no glaring theological differences between Protestants and Catholics on which the conflict was specifically based. Rather it was political in nature.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/ira-islam.aspx

[Cherie]

956643]It is true that children who have no religion are put to the bottom of the lists. And kids shouldn't have to sit out of lessons, they should just not be taught in state schools, they have no place there[/B]

I feel really strongly about this actually, religion has no place in schools and there certainly shouldn't be a policy of students having to sit out of part of valuable school time because Religion is being taught or the classes are preparing for masses/confirmations/communions and the latter two take up huge chunks of school time.


That's discrimination and should be challenged

[Ammi]

...I'm just reading up a bit about the school/education structure in Ireland.../which is obviously as you say, Niamh...

http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/


Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations
Constitutionally the result is that Ireland is one of the most religiously free countries in the world.



While the constitution does not place one religion over another, this would be hard to detect when looking at the state education system. There is a system of free state funded primary (elementary) schools, known as National Scools, but these are invariably Catholic schools in all but name. Although pupils of any religion may, and do, attend, the schools are governed by boards chaired by the local Catholic bishop and the teaching of Catholic Religion is central to the curriculum.
Those who wish to attend a school where another religion is taught, or an inter-denominational or non-denominational one, can do so in privately run schools, though these do receive state funding. However these schools do not exist in many areas, or are over-subscribed, and the reality is that over 90% of primary schools are Catholic run. There are some moves by the government to rectify this situation, but the wheels seem to be turning slowly.
It’s often suggested that this lack of choice in schools is one of the reasons that people who no longer practice their Catholic religion, or who have essentially left religion behind, still have their children baptised – it’s all about getting a place at the local school.
At secondary (high school) level, the vast majority of schools, while funded by the state, are run by religious and have a faith based ethos, although in a time of dwindling vocations and aging congregations many have latterly turned over day to day management to* lay trusts.


...so it's (religion yes..)...but the abuse of power in that religion of people ... of the bishops who chair the school governing boards and decide on place preferences...(and those preferences being baptised Catholic children..)..?...and they're going against the whole constitution and ethos of a country and changes that it's striving for...

[Niamh.]

That's discrimination and should be challenged

What should be challenged is the churches involvement in schools altogether imo

[Ammi]

What should be challenged is the churches involvement in schools altogether imo

...this indeed, the bishops seem to be abusing their power with this, completely...

[Niamh.]

...I'm just reading up a bit about the school/education structure in Ireland.../which is obviously as you say, Niamh...

http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/


Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations
Constitutionally the result is that Ireland is one of the most religiously free countries in the world.



While the constitution does not place one religion over another, this would be hard to detect when looking at the state education system. There is a system of free state funded primary (elementary) schools, known as National Scools, but these are invariably Catholic schools in all but name. Although pupils of any religion may, and do, attend, the schools are governed by boards chaired by the local Catholic bishop and the teaching of Catholic Religion is central to the curriculum.
Those who wish to attend a school where another religion is taught, or an inter-denominational or non-denominational one, can do so in privately run schools, though these do receive state funding. However these schools do not exist in many areas, or are over-subscribed, and the reality is that over 90% of primary schools are Catholic run. There are some moves by the government to rectify this situation, but the wheels seem to be turning slowly.
It’s often suggested that this lack of choice in schools is one of the reasons that people who no longer practice their Catholic religion, or who have essentially left religion behind, still have their children baptised – it’s all about getting a place at the local school.
At secondary (high school) level, the vast majority of schools, while funded by the state, are run by religious and have a faith based ethos, although in a time of dwindling vocations and aging congregations many have latterly turned over day to day management to* lay trusts.


...so it's (religion yes..)...but the abuse of power in that religion of people ... of the bishops who chair the school governing boards and decide on place preferences...(and those preferences being baptised Catholic children..)..?...and they're going against the whole constitution and ethos of a country and changes that it's striving for...

Yep in a nut shell Ammi. My daughters secondary school, like that article says, has a Catholic ethos but it's not anywhere near as invasive as primary school. They do religion as an exam subject but they learn about other religions and it's more of a study of them rather than this is how it is type of thing.....although they do still have a Catholic religion class too. I could opt her out of that but she doesn't want a fuss made, she just goes eventhough she thinks it's all BS

[Ammi]

Yep in a nut shell Ammi. My daughters secondary school, like that article says, has a Catholic ethos but it's not anywhere near as invasive as primary school. They do religion as an exam subject but they learn about other religions and it's more of a study of them rather than this is how it is type of thing.....although they do still have a Catholic religion class too. I could opt her out of that but she doesn't want a fuss made, she just goes eventhough she thinks it's all BS

..it's just such a wrong and contradictory thing in prejudicing against non faith/religion and yet a part of it being, teaching non-belief of religion as well as an option...(although some schools will teach religion itself in different ways, wherever the school, in the UK as well etc..)...the placings themselves, seem to be the abuse of power given to bishops in schools../maybe not all of them..?...but many of them..?...

[bots]

Some schools will have a good science department and therfore champion it an encourage pupils into studying those subjects. Other schools are noted for their sporting achievements, and so give preference to it over other things when the situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is that every school has an inherent agenda in whatever area you would like to investigate. Where does one start in making things fair for all, because its not, and it never will be.

[Ammi]

Some schools will have a good science department and therfore champion it an encourage pupils into studying those subjects. Other schools are noted for their sporting achievements, and so give preference to it over other things when the situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is that every school has an inherent agenda in whatever area you would like to investigate. Where does one start in making things fair for all, because its not, and it never will be.

..yeah totally, different schools will have things that suit specific children which might take a child out of catchment area to attend that school but they don't have 'trends' though like this, in the way they're governed and a specific religion/belief factoring into it so it can't really be compared at all in the same way....there is an ocean of difference between..'that school can't offer my child...' and 'that school won't accept my child...'....

[Niamh.]

..it's just such a wrong and contradictory thing in prejudicing against non faith/religion and yet a part of it being, teaching non-belief of religion as well as an option...(although some schools will teach religion itself in different ways, wherever the school, in the UK as well etc..)...the placings themselves, seem to be the abuse of power given to bishops in schools../maybe not all of them..?...but many of them..?...

Yeah very much so Ammi

This is a good website too if you're interested

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/07/condition-of-state-funding/

[Ammi]

Yeah very much so Ammi

This is a good website too if you're interested

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/07/condition-of-state-funding/

...yeah, I'm getting on my high horse a bit about this so I'll go off and read that now as well, thank you..:love:..I'm checking a few sites out atm..(not that any of them differ in their explanations of the Irish school structure ..)...

[Niamh.]

...yeah, I'm getting on my high horse a bit about this so I'll go off and read that now as well, thank you..:love:..I'm checking a few sites out atm..(not that any of them differ in their explanations of the Irish school structure ..)...

haha same......I think I need to spend the rest of the day in Chat and Games :laugh:

[jaxie]

No offense here Jaxie but I'm truly shocked everytime a British person makes a comment like that :laugh: The lack of understanding you seem to have about North/South Ireland is baffling. You know the North and South isn't a religious feud. We weren't fighting between eachother to convert eachother or whatever. The reason why so many Protestants in Northern ireland want to stay within the UK is because they were mostly originally from there as that's the most prominent religion in Britain and the reason why most nationalists are catholic is because they were probably mostly originally irish as that was the most prominent religion in Ireland.

have no doubt that Ireland splitting in two and the IRA forming and all the troubles up there, is because Britain invaded our country and when they decided to give it back eventually, split it in two for some reason......it almost seems like it's been pawned off to Irish fighting amongst eachother in some religious war instead of what it actually was, Nationalists wanting Ireland to be one again and Unionists wanting to be British (because they mostly were from Britain anyway originally)

All religion had to do with it really was a way of identifying where your allegiances lay (ie Irish(catholic) V's British(Protestant)

I have friends in both areas. I was wondering if the changing of attitudes continues 'change' of itself might make people start to come together one day. I know it's a loyalist and republican issue rather than a religious one though some superstition doesn't seem to have helped or has been used an excuse.

Though I think the British are at least partially ignorant about the problems as I think a lot was withheld through reporting restrictions etc.

[Niamh.]

I have friends in both areas. I was wondering if the changing of attitudes continues 'change' of itself might make people start to come together one day. I know it's a loyalist and republican issue rather than a religious one though some superstition doesn't seem to have helped or has been used an excuse.

Though I think the British are at least partially ignorant about the problems as I think a lot was withheld through reporting restrictions etc.

I don't think so really. What it boils down to now is whether those in Northern Ireland want to move out of the UK and join, which is now as so much time has passed, a "new" country. I can't see Ireland ever being unified now, too much water under the bridge and time passing, that ship has long sailed unfortunately

[jaxie]

I don't think so really. What it boils down to now is whether those in Northern Ireland want to move out of the UK and join, which is now as so much time has passed, a "new" country. I can't see Ireland ever being unified now, too much water under the bridge and time passing, that ship has long sailed unfortunately

I think that's a shame, is it weird for an English person to say that? :laugh:

[Niamh.]

I think that's a shame, is it weird for an English person to say that? :laugh:

:laugh: I think alot of English people don't care one way or the other but you rarely hear them saying its a shame no but it is a shame :love:

[jaxie]

:laugh: I think alot of English people don't care one way or the other but you rarely hear them saying its a shame no but it is a shame :love:

It just seems to me unnatural to have an island cut in half. Though if the SNP get their way it could happen to this island too!

[Niamh.]

It just seems to me unnatural to have an island cut in half. Though if the SNP get their way it could happen to this island too!

Scotland was always a country of it's own though so I'm not sure that's exactly the same but interesting POV on it anyway :laugh:

[Cherie]

I have friends in both areas. I was wondering if the changing of attitudes continues 'change' of itself might make people start to come together one day. I know it's a loyalist and republican issue rather than a religious one though some superstition doesn't seem to have helped or has been used an excuse.

Though I think the British are at least partially ignorant about the problems as I think a lot was withheld through reporting restrictions etc.


What superstition is this? People in the North feel British or Irish, it has never been a religious conflict, the media have always reported it as Catholic/Protestant which waters it down to something more palatable maybe

[jaxie]

Scotland was always a country of it's own though so I'm not sure that's exactly the same but interesting POV on it anyway :laugh:

Well yes but many hundreds of years ago, it's been part of GB through my lifetime and I think of it that way.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id like to see a united Ireland


Then we could tow it off into the atlantic a bit as its way, way too close

:umm2:

[jaxie]

What superstition is this? People in the North feel British or Irish, it has never been a religious conflict, the media have always reported it as Catholic/Protestant which waters it down to something more palatable maybe

Maybe superstition isn't the best word, emnity might be better but that doesn't cover the impression entirely either.

[Niamh.]

Well yes but many hundreds of years ago, it's been part of GB through my lifetime and I think of it that way.

fair enough :love:

[Niamh.]

Id like to see a united Ireland


Then we could tow it off into the atlantic a bit as its way, way too close

:umm2:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/06/Colin_Farrel-Disgusted.gif

[Kizzy]

A debate is fine but as usual it we ends into the usual whitewash that religious types are ignorant nutter and need to be told as much :laugh:

Not at all, ' If you're not for us you're against us' that's how I see it, because that's how it is.
If you are of one faith you can't advocate another because it is fundamentally 'wrong' ... that's how it is religion, intolerant.

[the truth]

Not at all, ' If you're not for us you're against us' that's how I see it, because that's how it is.
If you are of one faith you can't advocate another because it is fundamentally 'wrong' ... that's how it is religion, intolerant.
Untrue mass generalization

[Marsh.]

It's always the atheists that are the experts on religion around here. :umm2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's always the atheists that are the experts on religion around here. :umm2:

Usually because they have thought about it and investigated it more

hence the reason they do not believe in gods :hee:


But remember that even the ones who say they have a "faith" are atheist to 99.9% of all other gods

[Marsh.]

Usually because they have thought about it and investigated it more

hence the reason they do not believe in gods :hee:

And yet religious people have the reputation of arrogance. :umm2:

But remember that even the ones who say they have a "faith" are atheist to 99.9% of all other gods

I wish I could speak on behalf of billions of people like that.

What magical powers you have. :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

And yet religious people have the reputation of arrogance. :umm2:



I wish I could speak on behalf of billions of people like that.

What magical powers you have. :hee:


How do you know religious people have that reputation?


and what evidence do you have that Christians, Muslims, Hindus or Jews (for example) believe in other gods as well as their own?

[Marsh.]

How do you know religious people have that reputation?


and what evidence do you have that Christians, Muslims, Hindus or Jews (for example) believe in other gods as well as their own?

How does anyone what reputation anyone has? The way they're spoken about and referred to. Obviously.

Well considering there are many more religions in the world, all of which breakdown into several different branches of those religions, how DO YOU make the assumption that 99% of them are "atheists to other religions"?

[jaxie]

It's always the atheists that are the experts on religion around here. :umm2:

Who said they were an expert? :shrug:

All I can tell you is that I, being me, myself, don't believe in fairies, father Christmas or some guy who lives in the sky and drowns billions of people who didn't get a ticket on his custom boat. Everyone else can do what they like.

[Marsh.]

Who said they were an expert? :shrug:

I just did and you quoted it. :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

How does anyone what reputation anyone has? The way they're spoken about and referred to. Obviously.

Well considering there are many more religions in the world, all of which breakdown into several different branches of those religions, how DO YOU make the assumption that 99% of them are "atheists to other religions"?

I have never heard of any one from the religions I quoted who believe in other gods

one of the basic tenants of these religions is

"you cant belive in any other gods as this god is the one true god"

this they are atheist to all other gods

Someone like me is the same as them but i just go one god further

[Marsh.]

I have never heard of any one from the religions I quoted who believe in other gods

I don't know billions of people either.

Glad we cleared that up. :hee:

[jaxie]

I have never heard of any one from the religions I quoted who believe in other gods

one of the basic tenants of these religions is

"you cant belive in any other gods as this god is the one true god"

this they are atheist to all other gods

Someone like me is the same as them but i just go one god further

Dont many religions, christianity, muslim, have origins in the Jewish faith anyway? So isn't it technically the same god?

[Marsh.]

Dont many religions, christianity, muslim, have origins in the Jewish faith anyway? So isn't it technically the same god?

Ok, now you're delving a little too deep into it now. Don't go proving him wrong. :nono:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't know billions of people either.

Glad we cleared that up. :hee:

No i mean by definition if you follow either of the 4 quoted you cannot so they do not exist

unless you somehow know different?

[Marsh.]

No i mean by definition if you follow either of the 4 quoted you cannot so they do not exist

Depends on your definition of "follow".

Christians don't kill homosexuals around these parts and there are gay people who go to church. So it's not really a blanket rule/generalisation that can be applied to a whole religion, all of its denominations and all of the people within it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dont many religions, christianity, muslim, have origins in the Jewish faith anyway? So isn't it technically the same god?

No, the Jweish God is angry and smites people, the Christian one is nice and is actually Jesus and he is kind and loving, the muslim guy is a maverick and thinks he is the best god what with him being the youngest

[Crimson Dynamo]

Depends on your definition of "follow".

Christians don't kill homosexuals around these parts and there are gay people who go to church. So it's not really a blanket rule/generalisation that can be applied to a whole religion, all of its denominations and all of the people within it.

no, the belief in no other gods is not a flip flop rule like stoning homosexuals

if you believe in other gods you aint in the club bruv


go ask a vicar, sadhu nor an iman

[Marsh.]

go ask a vicar, sadhu nor an iman

I take it you have?

Ok. :hee:

Religions aren't a club. There is no membership card. All are welcome into the houses of worship, there are no forms to fill in or any examinations. :hee:

[Braden]

DId you or did you not come for me, Ricky? (I'm an Agnostic (most people will not get that Drag Race reference but oh well :p)).

I did agree with mostly everything he said until the Agnostic comments. I will admit, he did cause me to doubt myself. The Santa Claus example is an accurate one to use, but the jumper one irked me a little bit. It's quite obvious to know that a jumper is not capable of creating the universe, but that's because it's a physical thing. God and religion is a much more powerful prospect, which is a lot less easier to doubt (imo).

[Kizzy]

It's always the atheists that are the experts on religion around here. :umm2:

I'm not an atheist... fact, not everyone who has an opinion on religion is an atheist.

Are those who consider themselves religious automatically experts on religion?

[Marsh.]

I'm not an atheist... fact, not everyone who has an opinion on religion is an atheist.

Are those who consider themselves religious automatically experts on religion?

Who said you were an atheist?

I don't remember speaking about you, to you or engaging you at all. :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I take it you have?

Ok. :hee:

Religions aren't a club. There is no membership card. All are welcome into the houses of worship, there are no forms to fill in or any examinations. :hee:

i have and i have seen countless debates filmed on tv and on youtube where this topic is debated

Your argument seems to be well religions are up to the individual, i think you miss the point of these cults

I think the person you are thinking of does not exist, ironically

[Marsh.]

i have and i have seen countless debates filmed on tv and on youtube where this topic is debated

Debated being the main point. There is no be all and end all rule.

There would be no debate if it were a simple open and close answer.

[Maru]

Dont many religions, christianity, muslim, have origins in the Jewish faith anyway? So isn't it technically the same god?

:shrug: I've heard God often used interchangeably in-between people who follow opposing religions. I wouldn't say they agree on each other's definition of God but that maybe that each side feels one is closer than the other to the real truth. Though it really depends on the topic on how detailed those topics are about... there are many things religious folk can relate on with regards to discussions of God that don't come down to just doctrine. Those discussions usually comes from a place of humility but not always. First gen Americans who were raised around anti-West are more likely to bash opposing beliefs. Many churches where I am are fairly Americanized. Unless you're a politician or some sort of evangelist or some other delivery man for God's word, it's generally taboo to force religion down other people's throats. If you're dressed for church and are in a space where it's encouraged, otherwise you look like a fruitcake.

Maybe it's like football. They're all playing on different teams but within the same league (the human race)? :laugh: Let the competitions begin and may the most worthy win?

[Kizzy]

Who said you were an atheist?

I don't remember speaking about you, to you or engaging you at all. :think:

Your post didn't specify therefore it appears to be a generalisation directed towards anyone who doesn't subscribe to a religious label, that would include me.
If you wish to avoid confusion try being a little more specific as to who you are attempting to patronise in future.

[Marsh.]

Your post didn't specify therefore it appears to be a generalisation directed towards anyone who doesn't subscribe to a religious label, that would include me.
If you wish to avoid confusion try being a little more specific as to who you are attempting to patronise in future.

Oh no, I made a generalisation? I fit in great in this thread then. Seems the irony went over your head?

Also, not everything is about you Kiz. :thumbs:

If I'm talking about atheists then that also isn't directed towards anyone who doesn't subscribe to a religious label. There are many non religious, non-atheist people.

[Kizzy]

Oh no, I made a generalisation? I fit in great in this thread then. Seems the irony went over your head?

Also, not everything is about you Kiz. :thumbs:

No you don't fit in , you can't sit with us.


It atch is.

[Johnnyuk123]

If i said that in my hand is a 50 pound note when clearly there is nothing in my hand at all would you believe me? No you would not. And you'd be right too refute it. So what are we left with? People say that they believe in god because.... to me it's real ( there is no evidence to prove that point of view) Meanwhile i still have a 50 pound note in the palm of my hand for those who can see beyond there being nothing in my hand at all. That's religion in a nut shell. Blind to reality, a leap of faith,the world is still flat right? god said so, well that book recons he said it. How did that go? Imagine if the Viz was picked up instead of that bible book of fairy stories? Today we would all be worshiping two fat slags and beheading folk for slating them for our fat slag faith.:hee:

[Livia]

Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?

[Kizzy]

It says the meek shall inherit the Earth ... the flat bits, and all the twunts can have the hills.
http://www.quadsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/pushing-rock-uphill.jpg

[Marsh.]

Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is flat?

Nowhere, but it's repeated in several issues of The Unfunny Guide to Jokes.

[Marsh.]

If i said that in my hand is a 50 pound note when clearly there is nothing in my hand at all would you believe me? No you would not. And you'd be right too refute it. So what are we left with? People say that they believe in god because.... to me it's real ( there is no evidence to prove that point of view) Meanwhile i still have a 50 pound note in the palm of my hand for those who can see beyond there being nothing in my hand at all. That's religion in a nut shell. Blind to reality, a leap of faith,the world is still flat right? god said so, well that book recons he said it. How did that go? Imagine if the Viz was picked up instead of that bible book of fairy stories? Today we would all be worshiping two fat slags and beheading folk for slating them for our fat slag faith.:hee:

You bring up these same things time and time again without any elaboration on what relevance they have?

Believing the world was flat wasn't a "religious" thing and was later proven incorrect by advancement in science and research that showed the earth was actually spherical.

No such proof has been offered to disprove any religion or the existence of a deity so the point of you bringing it up alludes us.

[Kizzy]

You bring up these same things time and time again without any elaboration on what relevance they have?

Believing the world was flat wasn't a "religious" thing and was later proven incorrect by advancement in science and research that showed the earth was actually spherical.

No such proof has been offered to disprove any religion or the existence of a deity so the point of you bringing it up alludes us.

Nope... they knew in the 6th century BC that the earth was not flat

[Marsh.]

Nope... they knew in the 6th century BC that the earth was not flat

Yes, and... ?

[Kizzy]

Yes, and... ?

Just trying to help jeeze... it wasn't advancement after the fact this was ancient knowledge way before the bible was written.

[Marsh.]

Just trying to help jeeze... it wasn't advancement after the fact this was ancient knowledge way before the bible was written.

I never said it was advancement after the bible though? :conf:

In fact in the very post you quote I state the belief in a flat earth wasn't anything to do with it.

[Kizzy]

I never said it was advancement after the bible though? :conf:

In fact in the very post you quote I state the belief in a flat earth wasn't anything to do with it.

'Believing the world was flat wasn't a "religious" thing and was later proven incorrect by advancement in science and research that showed the earth was actually spherical.'

It wasn't 'later' proven it was known milennia before.

[Marsh.]

'Believing the world was flat wasn't a "religious" thing and was later proven incorrect by advancement in science and research that showed the earth was actually spherical.'

It wasn't 'later' proven it was known milennia before.

"Later proven" as in proven after people believed the earth was flat and were proven wrong.

Not proven after the bible. :unsure:

[Kizzy]

"Later proven" as in proven after people believed the earth was flat and were proven wrong.

Not proven after the bible. :unsure:

The wording of your post does not suggest that, but I'll let it go save you confusing yourself further.

[Marsh.]

I've not confused myself. I know what I posted and stand by it. You've misunderstood my post but instead of admitting so and moving on you try to turn the tables. Standard Kizzy.

The bible wasn't even mentioned in the post you quote yet you thought I was referring to after it was written, that's your fault not mine.

Moving on...

[Kizzy]

I've not confused myself. I know what I posted and stand by it. You've misunderstood my post but instead of admitting so and moving on you try to turn the tables. Standard Kizzy.

The bible wasn't even mentioned in the post you quote yet you thought I was referring to after it was written, that's your fault not mine.

Moving on...

Could you confirm from what was it 'later' proven from?

You say 'later' what is the 6th century later than...the dawn of time?

If so that would be a given wouldn't it that at some time since the dawn of time it was proven, is that what you are standing by?

[Marsh.]

Could you confirm from what was it 'later' proven from?

You say 'later' what is the 6th century later than...the dawn of time?

If so that would be a given wouldn't it that at some time since the dawn of time it was proven, is that what you are standing by?

I just said?

...

"Later proven" as in proven after people believed the earth was flat and were proven wrong.

Obviously.

My, my you love overcomplicating everything don't you?

[user104658]

Wow. This thread took the special bus home, didn't it.

[jaxie]

Wow. This thread took the special bus home, didn't it.

:laugh:

[Livia]

It says the meek shall inherit the Earth ... the flat bits, and all the twunts can have the hills.
http://www.quadsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/pushing-rock-uphill.jpg

This is nonsensical.

[user104658]

this is nonsensical.

This. Is. Spartaaa!

[Kizzy]

Wow. This thread took the special bus home, didn't it.

And you can hang from it.

[Kizzy]

This is nonsensical.

It's a nod to sisyphus... we can all identify with that :)

[Kizzy]

I just said?

...



Obviously.

My, my you love overcomplicating everything don't you?

No I like things very clear and logical, if it was proven in the 6 century BC then why is it suggested in the bible the earth is flat?
Is it that most knew the earth was round and yet those who wrote the bible were wrong?
Makes you wonder what else are they wrong about.

[Livia]

It's a nod to sisyphus... we can all identify with that :)

Some of us more than others.

[Kizzy]

Some of us more than others.

Oh we can, it's only the size of the rock that differs.

[Marsh.]

then why is it suggested in the bible the earth is flat?

Suggested where?

[Kizzy]

Suggested where?

Revelations, hey who's the religious one here? you should know this shiz :laugh:

[Marsh.]

Revelations, hey who's the religious one here? you should know this shiz :laugh:

I do know. Hence why I'm asking you where you believe these references are.

[Kizzy]

I do know. Hence why I'm asking you where you believe these references are.

:think: yeah ok.

[Marsh.]

:think: yeah ok.

So you're not going to share these apparent references to a flat earth?

Bless.

[Livia]

It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that the earth is flat. Isiah 40 22 says "... He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." and the suggestion has been that it means the earth is circular, but flat. However, the Hebrew word for a circle can also mean a sphere.

[Kizzy]

So you're not going to share these apparent references to a flat earth?

Bless.

You are aware of them you said....don't bless me, it bothers god no end when you do that you know :/

[Marsh.]

You are aware of them you said....don't bless me, it bothers god no end when you do that you know :/

So, you're just going to make statements without bothering to back them up to add to the actual discussion? :laugh: Ok.

Also, your attempt at patronising me with comments about what God thinks doesn't work my love. Try someone that cares. :thumbs:

[Kizzy]

So, you're just going to make statements without bothering to back them up to add to the actual discussion? :laugh: Ok.

Also, your attempt at patronising me with comments about what God thinks doesn't work my love. Try someone that cares. :thumbs:

I stated revelations... you're the one who hasn't backed up your knowledge of the subject, I haven't patronised you :thumbs:

[Marsh.]

I stated revelations... you're the one who hasn't backed up your knowledge of the subject, I haven't patronised you :thumbs:

Stating a book within the bible isn't doing anything. Livia just quoted a line referring to the earth, are you incapable of doing the same? Should be quite easy if it references the earth being flat?

No. You haven't patronised me because your attempts at doing so have fallen... flat. :thumbs:

[Niamh.]

Oh My God, move on guys :laugh:

ETA : Pardon the Pun :fan:

[user104658]

Kizzy and Marsh, sittin' in a tree, A-R-G-U-I-N-G...

[Marsh.]

Kizzy and Marsh, sittin' in a tree, A-R-G-U-I-N-G...

It wouldn't last longer than 30 seconds before someone got pushed. :smug:

[user104658]

It you;ldm't last longer than 30 seconds before someone got pushed. :smug:

:omgno: THIS is Big Brother, would Marsh please come to the diary room.

[kirklancaster]

No I like things very clear and logical, if it was proven in the 6 century BC then why is it suggested in the bible the earth is flat?
Is it that most knew the earth was round and yet those who wrote the bible were wrong?
Makes you wonder what else are they wrong about.

:laugh: If you like "things" to be "so clear and logical", and have such a concern about "what else" those who wrote the Bible could be "wrong about" - then perhaps, you should concentrate upon rectifying the erroneous assumptions and non-factual assertions in your post.

A) Although it WAS in the 6th century BC that the Greek philosopher Pythagoras proposed that the Earth was spherical, the idea was not generally accepted by his peers and did not start to spread and be generally accepted until almost 300 years later - sometime around 330 BC - when Aristotle provided substantiating evidence for the Spherical Earth theory.

So contrary to your 'facts', it was NOT "proven in the 6 century BC" that the Earth was spherical, AND "Most" certainly did NOT know "that the Earth was round" in the 6th century BC either.

B) Although, it has hitherto been generally accepted by academics and theologians, that the Bible originated in the 6th century BC, this was almost solely because it was believed that the ancient Hebrews did not possess writing BEFORE that time.

However, recent archeological discoveries - which suggest that the ancient Hebrews DID possess writing almost 400 years EARLIER than thought - have caused the consensus to be revised, and it is now generally accepted that the Bible's origins could well have been in the 10th century BC, in the time of King David.

C) Despite this probability that the Old Testament was written centuries BEFORE Pythagoras proposed a Spherical Earth in the 6th century BC, and Aristotle provided empirical evidence for a Spherical Earth in 330 BC, the idea that The Bible states or suggests that the Earth was 'Flat' is WRONG, and the Bible actually suggests that the Earth is spherical in numerous passages.

Just as with thousands of years of misquoting and misunderstanding the Biblical narrative of Exodus, due to a mistranslation of the Hebrew words 'Yam Suph' as The Red Sea, when it actually means Sea of Reeds or Reed Sea, then the reason for the common misconception that The Bible suggests that the Earth was flat, is a misinterpretation of various Old Testament passages which refer to the Earth; Job 26:10; “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.”, Isaiah 40:21-22; "the circle of the earth, and Proverbs 8.27; "When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep" - are examples most often cited by skeptics who maintain that a 'circle' is round but one dimensional, as opposed to a sphere.

However, when one becomes aware that the Hebrew word for 'Circle' - (חוג)chuwg, also means 'round' or 'sphere', then far from suggesting that the Earth is FLAT, those very same passages declare it to be 'ROUND or SPHERICAL' in shape.

There is a wealth of corroborating evidence within the same passages that SPHERICAL is EXACTLY what the Biblical authors MEANT, but unsurprisingly, this is missed by anti-Biblical scholars or skeptics.

Those same skeptics and Biblical detractors also seize on the text of Revelation Chapter 7, to support their false claim that the Bible proposed a 'Flat Earth':

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Such detractors point to the phrase; 'Four corners of the earth', but the author of Revelation - St John The Divine - was referring to the FOUR CARDINAL POINTS of the Earth.

Just saying - for the sake of clarity and logic.

[Kizzy]

Stating a book within the bible isn't doing anything. Livia just quoted a line referring to the earth, are you incapable of doing the same? Should be quite easy if it references the earth being flat?

No. You haven't patronised me because your attempts at doing so have fallen... flat. :thumbs:

Hey I'm not your slave, do your own research :umm2:

[Cherie]

I'm so distracted by Marsh's green lamas I can't comment

[Kizzy]

:laugh: If you like "things" to be "so clear and logical", and have such a concern about "what else" those who wrote the Bible could be "wrong about" - then perhaps, you should concentrate upon rectifying the erroneous assumptions and non-factual assertions in your post.

A) Although it WAS in the 6th century BC that the Greek philosopher Pythagoras proposed that the Earth was spherical, the idea was not generally accepted by his peers and did not start to spread and be generally accepted until almost 300 years later - sometime around 330 BC - when Aristotle provided substantiating evidence for the Spherical Earth theory.

So contrary to your 'facts', it was NOT "proven in the 6 century BC" that the Earth was spherical, AND "Most" certainly did NOT know "that the Earth was round" in the 6th century BC either.

B) Although, it has hitherto been generally accepted by academics and theologians, that the Bible originated in the 6th century BC, this was almost solely because it was believed that the ancient Hebrews did not possess writing BEFORE that time.

However, recent archeological discoveries - which suggest that the ancient Hebrews DID possess writing almost 400 years EARLIER than thought - have caused the consensus to be revised, and it is now generally accepted that the Bible's origins could well have been in the 10th century BC, in the time of King David.

C) Despite this probability that the Old Testament was written centuries BEFORE Pythagoras proposed a Spherical Earth in the 6th century BC, and Aristotle provided empirical evidence for a Spherical Earth in 330 BC, the idea that The Bible states or suggests that the Earth was 'Flat' is WRONG, and the Bible actually suggests that the Earth is spherical in numerous passages.

Just as with thousands of years of misquoting and misunderstanding the Biblical narrative of Exodus, due to a mistranslation of the Hebrew words 'Yam Suph' as The Red Sea, when it actually means Sea of Reeds or Reed Sea, then the reason for the common misconception that The Bible suggests that the Earth was flat, is a misinterpretation of various Old Testament passages which refer to the Earth; Job 26:10; “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.”, Isaiah 40:21-22; "the circle of the earth, and Proverbs 8.27; "When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep" - are examples most often cited by skeptics who maintain that a 'circle' is round but one dimensional, as opposed to a sphere.

However, when one becomes aware that the Hebrew word for 'Circle' - (חוג)chuwg, also means 'round' or 'sphere', then far from suggesting that the Earth is FLAT, those very same passages declare it to be 'ROUND or SPHERICAL' in shape.

There is a wealth of corroborating evidence within the same passages that SPHERICAL is EXACTLY what the Biblical authors MEANT, but unsurprisingly, this is missed by anti-Biblical scholars or skeptics.

Those same skeptics and Biblical detractors also seize on the text of Revelation Chapter 7, to support their false claim that the Bible proposed a 'Flat Earth':

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Such detractors point to the phrase; 'Four corners of the earth', but the author of Revelation - St John The Divine - was referring to the FOUR CARDINAL POINTS of the Earth.

Just saying - for the sake of clarity and logic.

Well thanks for that, maybe you should post it to your mate Johnny? he initiated the flat earth discussion.

[Marsh.]

Hey I'm not your slave, do your own research :umm2:

It's not about research. It's about the discussion.

If we're discussing the assumption that "the bible claimed the earth was flat" then provide quotes so we can discuss this assumption.

Otherwise simply repeating "The bible says the earth is flat" contributes nothing to this thread really does it?

I can't really discuss where you get the idea from without you telling me which quotes make you think it's saying the earth is flat. Since nowhere in the bible does it literally state so.

[Marsh.]

Well thanks for that, maybe you should post it to your mate Johnny? he initiated the flat earth discussion.

You then took part in said discussion, so why shouldn't he address the posts you've contributed?

[Crimson Dynamo]

can someone please think about Ricky Gervais?

[Marsh.]

can someone please think about Ricky Gervais?

Please no. I feel nauseous.

[jaxie]

Just for the record, most folks in the world thought the earth was flat until the introduction of European Astronomy in the 17th century.

And it fact most, based on ancient Chinese theory, thought it was flat and square.

Though I'm sure here must have some theories,you only have to look at the moon for clues.

[jaxie]

I'm so distracted by Marsh's green lamas I can't comment

They were driving me mental until they stopped.

[Marsh.]

They were driving me mental until they stopped.

http://cdn.thisisbigbrother.com/customavatars/avatar92929_1.gif

[user104658]

Though I'm sure here must have some theories,you only have to look at the moon for clues.

I was just thinking that actually. Surely from the first sparks of reasoning, some humans must have thought "hmm it's probably a sphere" just based on that. Clearly the sun and the moon are round, a few people must have guessed that the world would be the same. And then when the moon is about a week off full either side, the way the shadow is cast I think makes it a quite obvious sphere... There must ALWAYS have been some people thinking, "it's probably just the same as that" as a theory.

I guess the concept of gravity might have made it difficult to understand. But maybe they thought everyone just lived on the top of the sphere. There's a lot of talk in myths / legends of being afraid of falling off of the edge of the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean not understanding that the world is spherical... They might have imagined that if you travelled too far around the sphere you would slip off the side. It's actually the logical conclusion, if you don't know about gravity.

[Kizzy]

You then took part in said discussion, so why shouldn't he address the posts you've contributed?

He did and I responded... do you have anything else to add, seeing as you've took it upon yourself to police the thread?

[Kizzy]

It's not about research. It's about the discussion.

If we're discussing the assumption that "the bible claimed the earth was flat" then provide quotes so we can discuss this assumption.

Otherwise simply repeating "The bible says the earth is flat" contributes nothing to this thread really does it?

I can't really discuss where you get the idea from without you telling me which quotes make you think it's saying the earth is flat. Since nowhere in the bible does it literally state so.

Sigh.. it doesn't say anything literally in the bible and if it does it's spun to mean something else, it'll always be manipulated to suit someones agenda it seems.

[Marsh.]

He did and I responded... do you have anything else to add, seeing as you've took it upon yourself to police the thread?

Who's policing? You're the one telling him where to direct his responses.

[Marsh.]

Sigh.. it doesn't say anything literally in the bible and if it does it's spun to mean something else, it'll always be manipulated to suit someones agenda it seems.

So you're not going to answer the question? Ok.

Lots of things are stated clearly in the bible. The earth being "flat" is not one of them.

[Kizzy]

Who's policing? You're the one telling him where to direct his responses.

I put forward a suggestion, it wasn't an order.

[Kizzy]

So you're not going to answer the question? Ok.

Lots of things are stated clearly in the bible. The earth being "flat" is not one of them.

You've already decided the inference is too vague so there's not much point, as with much in the bible it's open to interpretation.

[Marsh.]

You've already decided the inference is too vague so there's not much point, as with much in the bible it's open to interpretation.

Yes, so I'm asking you to provide your interpretation.

But it seems to be too difficult for you to discuss points you raise so whatever.

[Kizzy]

Yes, so I'm asking you to provide your interpretation.

But it seems to be too difficult for you to discuss points you raise so whatever.

What would it matter what my interpretation is?

I didn't raise the flat earth point, I raised the point that it was known since the 6th century BC the earth was not flat.

My point being it wasn't proven after the scripture it was known beforehand, let's not have another sermon about it :/