time to recruit replacements for inhumane junior doctors

[the truth]

the bma is a disgrace putting millions of lives at massive risk with their 5 day walkout...a typical example of where a moronic bully boy union grows way out of control as its ego runs amock

they yet again fail to even clarify what is their problem although more weekend pay rises are still part of their demands.

they have exploited the fact we couldnt recruit as many doctors as we like outside the eu, that will soon change with brexit...at that point we should scour the world to replace these heartless money grabbers

doctors make a fortune both on the nhs and privately....they also work fewer hours under this new contract and they also have the option of working in scotland wales or ireland on the old contract

granted the nhs has serious problems , though the government has in fairness overseen a wipeout of mrsa and we see less scandals than 10 years ago...they also spend more money per head in england than labour so in wales....the waiting lists are also massively shorter in many areas in england than wales....this red herring than anything private is evil is also nonsense. private companies tendering for small parts of the nhs , if it means a better service for patients is a good thing

time is running out on this bully boy union

[Kizzy]

We need more doctors and less 'managers'.

[the truth]

We need more doctors and less 'managers'.

we need to do both....way fewer managers and trust board members bleeding billions out of the nhs, we also need to replace some of these horrific ruthless junior doctors

[Toy Soldier]

Doctors are scrabbling to get OUT of the UK... Which doctors (trained at modern, reputable universities) are going to be queuing up to work in the NHS?

[joeysteele]

I wish the junior Doctors all the luck in the world in beating down this atrocious imposed contract.
All my family who worked as Doctors in the NHS, 2 have however already left and 2 others are going by Christmas, gone and going elsewhere to work as Doctors.
Enough really did become enough for them from this shameful govt as to this issue.

[Tom4784]

I pity anyone who is swallowing the Jeremy Hunt kool-aid. We must support the junior doctors, not drive them away from the NHS and make it easier for the Tories to dismantle it.

[the truth]

I pity anyone who is swallowing the Jeremy Hunt kool-aid. We must support the junior doctors, not drive them away from the NHS and make it easier for the Tories to dismantle it.

couldnt care less about hunt, i do care about the millions of sick people being neglected by this stinking union

[the truth]

5 days off every month, time to replace some of these scumbags asap

[Kizzy]

How about you do it?... oh, you can't you don't have the qualifications or the stomach for it, all you can do is bleat about those that do.
Sad.

[Cherie]

Think they are going to lose a lot of public support. I feel for anyone with a procedure pencilled in on those days, I work with Consultants who supported the original strikes but are not happy with this

[AProducer'sWetDream]

How about you do it?... oh, you can't you don't have the qualifications or the stomach for it, all you can do is bleat about those that do.
Sad.

:clap1: Well said. I've seen so many people who work in shops or restaurants for example, telling them that they should put up with it as 'everyone else puts up with it'.

I'd like to see how the truth would react if he found out he was being operated on by someone who's in the twelfth hour of their shift.

[joeysteele]

How about you do it?... oh, you can't you don't have the qualifications or the stomach for it, all you can do is bleat about those that do.
Sad.

If this contract is imposed, as I said my family working in the NHS have already made their minds up to go and 2 have gone already.
It will end up a hollow victory for this atrocious govt.

They will see in my view, masses of Junior Doctors leave for pastures new elsewhere.
They will be lucky in England, then to provide good quality care for Patients over most of the week never mind 7 days a week with a greatly reduced number of qualified Doctors.

One thing is for sure,a good number of Junior Doctors will not accept working under this new contract and will leave.
With less and less people applying to become Doctors, this pathetic PM, health Secretary and govt, will eventually be seen for the liars they are on this issue, albeit too late then.

[Kizzy]

They don't care about those who can't afford private healthcare that's what it boils down to, if serfs die they are replaced not repaired, that is how it is now.

[Tom4784]

Five days off a month isn't exactly a big ask.

[Vicky.]

I would train to be a doctor is I could afford to. Well..a surgeon I want to be tbh, or a midwife maybe. Something doctor-y anyway. But I cannot afford to train. Can't even afford to train to nurse level :bored:

[Kizzy]

Think they are going to lose a lot of public support. I feel for anyone with a procedure pencilled in on those days, I work with Consultants who supported the original strikes but are not happy with this

How do these strikes differ?

[the truth]

as usual the junior doctors have totally failed to clarify their hollow argument , which put simply is, we dont want to work weekends and if we do we want double time ....every other massive organization has continental shift patterns 4 days on 4 days off, thats exactly what these doctors should have...if they dont like it, go to scotland wales or ireland or abroad ...time they put patients first not their bank balance and social lives

[AProducer'sWetDream]

as usual the junior doctors have totally failed to clarify their hollow argument , which put simply is, we dont want to work weekends and if we do we want double time ....every other massive organization has continental shift patterns 4 days on 4 days off, thats exactly what these doctors should have...if they dont like it, go to scotland wales or ireland or abroad ...time they put patients first not their bank balance and social lives

Pssst... they already do :hehe: .

Put simply Hunt has promised the country that he will 'deliver a seven day NHS', meaning more non-emergency services will be available on the weekend. However, he wants to do this without spending any extra money. He's therefore decided to sretch the current resources more thinly over seven days rather than five, creating a situation where junior doctors (at the moment, other health professionals will likely be next) are overworked and overtired. This isn't safe. Tired doctors make mistakes, and unlike employees of other massive organisations, when doctors make mistakes, it costs lives.

[Vicky.]

Pssst... they already do :hehe: .

Put simply Hunt has promised the country that he will 'deliver a seven day NHS', meaning more non-emergency services will be available on the weekend. However, he wants to do this without spending any extra money. He's therefore decided to sretch the current resources more thinly over seven days rather than five, creating a situation where junior doctors (at the moment, other health professionals will likely be next) are overworked and overtired. This isn't safe. Tired doctors make mistakes, and unlike employees of other massive organisations, when doctors make mistakes, it costs lives.

Yup, this has been how I have taken all of the news and such surrounding this. It is also the views expressed by friends of mine who work in various hospuital positions. I tend to stay out of these discussions usually as I don't understand it completely myself, however I do trust that the people I know who are affected(or are good friends/family of someone who is affected) know what they are talking about...

[Kizzy]

Pssst... they already do :hehe: .

Put simply Hunt has promised the country that he will 'deliver a seven day NHS', meaning more non-emergency services will be available on the weekend. However, he wants to do this without spending any extra money. He's therefore decided to sretch the current resources more thinly over seven days rather than five, creating a situation where junior doctors (at the moment, other health professionals will likely be next) are overworked and overtired. This isn't safe. Tired doctors make mistakes, and unlike employees of other massive organisations, when doctors make mistakes, it costs lives.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[AProducer'sWetDream]

if they dont like it, go to scotland wales or ireland or abroad ...time they put patients first not their bank balance and social lives

So it's worth losing potentially thousands of talented professionals to other countries from a field of work where there are already not enough staff, to expand accessibility to some non-essential services to the weekend? Hunt claims more people die on weekends in hospitals due to lack of care. This is not the case and his reasoning is based on very flakey evidence. The NHS already is a seven-day service. Doctors, nurses, any anyone else who works in the health service sacrfice so much of their time and effort, for little pay (nurses, for example, have had their pay frozen for years while MPs have helped themselves to an 11% pay rise), to save lives. You'll miss them when they're gone, and Jeremy Hunt finally achieves his long-time aim to privatise health care in the UK.

[Kizzy]

So it's worth losing potentially thousands of talented professionals to other countries from a field of work where there are already not enough staff, to expand accessibility to some non-essential services to the weekend? Hunt claims more people die on weekends in hospitals due to lack of care. This is not the case and his reasoning is based on very flakey evidence. The NHS already is a seven-day service. Doctors, nurses, any anyone else who works in the health service sacrfice so much of their time and effort, for little pay (nurses, for example, have had their pay frozen for years while MPs have helped themselves to an 11% pay rise), to save lives. You'll miss them when they're gone, and Jeremy Hunt finally achieves his long-time aim to privatise health care in the UK.

With both my kids having congenital conditions I just daren't envisage this :(

[AProducer'sWetDream]

With both my kids having congenital conditions I just daren't envisage this :(

It's nightmarish. The NHS has done so much for my family, it's saved my life, and is the thing that makes me most proud to be British.

[Kizzy]

It's nightmarish. The NHS has done so much for my family, it's saved my life, and is the thing that makes me most proud to be British.

True, did you see the article with that prat chef saying Mary Berry was wrong to speak out about deep fat fryers as they are an intrinsic part of 'British culture'!....Where are their heads at?.... where?


* goes a bit loco *

[the truth]

So it's worth losing potentially thousands of talented professionals to other countries from a field of work where there are already not enough staff, to expand accessibility to some non-essential services to the weekend? Hunt claims more people die on weekends in hospitals due to lack of care. This is not the case and his reasoning is based on very flakey evidence. The NHS already is a seven-day service. Doctors, nurses, any anyone else who works in the health service sacrfice so much of their time and effort, for little pay (nurses, for example, have had their pay frozen for years while MPs have helped themselves to an 11% pay rise), to save lives. You'll miss them when they're gone, and Jeremy Hunt finally achieves his long-time aim to privatise health care in the UK.

the people leading this disgusting revolt which will result in the deaths of 1000s of innocent people just to get the millionare doctors even more cash and time off at weekends need to be replaced asap...they are scum

[the truth]

It's nightmarish. The NHS has done so much for my family, it's saved my life, and is the thing that makes me most proud to be British.

yeap we need rid of the trusts we need to rid ourselves of the nhs cover ups we saw under new labour we need rid of the useless chief execs and we need doctors to work 4 day on day off shift patterns like evryone else

[Kizzy]

the people leading this disgusting revolt which will result in the deaths of 1000s of innocent people just to get the millionare doctors even more cash and time off at weekends need to be replaced asap...they are scum

:joker::joker::joker:

[AProducer'sWetDream]

I love it when people take the time and effort to read my posts.

[Vicky.]

Being a regular at our NHS hospital over the past 2 years, I dread to think what would happen to me without it tbh. I would be dead in a gutter somewhere by now I assume. Which would suit the Tories quite well given I am currently not a taxpayer and am simply as sponge on society what with my disability and all :S

Most doctors are not millionaires either.

I stand behind them in everything, I owe them my life.

[Kizzy]

You and me both Vicky :( Nothing makes me feel more wretched and hopeless than the thought of the demise of the NHS it truly would be the end of Britain as we know it and the dawn of UK PLC.

[Vicky.]

You and me both Vicky :( Nothing makes me feel more wretched and hopeless than the thought of the demise of the NHS it truly would be the end of Britain as we know it and the dawn of UK PLC.

I know. I have had my own issues with the NHS (as most on here know) but even with that..I cannot stress how much we NEED it. Yes mistakes happen, mostly because of underfunding. I was looked after mainly by consultants. I was taken in on a Sunday. I had my surgery on a Monday. I was nearly dead on the Wednesday while they were trying to free up my bed for some other poor sod who needed help. Yes I am bitter about my treatment that one time. But I know for damn sure that without the NHS and the endless appointments and such I have been given, I would be a lot worse off than I am now.

Funnily enough, with me being taken in on a Sunday, the fact that my operation went so wrong would have counted towards Hunts figures bent to makeout weekend care is so horrendous...despite my problems being through the week..

[the truth]

we pay a fortune for the nhs so it should be good....the weekend service is sub standard in many hospitals has been for decades...you can barely be scanned at weekends, in fact they dont even do swallow tests of oaps at weekends in many hospitals who are simply on the drip and not fed .......its not simply down to the money its the way they are run and the waste on these endless trust board staff...the nhs also fails to claim private insurance against many of its care bills. which is insane. if a patient has private care insurance to be cared for at home....that should cover as much as possible of the costs and the nhs should cover the rest. just common sense. this current strike is moronic too....the nhs should pump way more money into scanning people earlier, this would save way more saved costs on bed blocking and unnecessary pills and worsening health....scan immediately, get results straight away, diagnose quickly...then treat the problem. the nhs is run far more inefficiently than it need be...yes were all grateful it saves lives and does many great things, just as churches do many great things saving lives and feeidng the starving milllions. but that doesnt mean we should urgently address its failings, which are not all down to money. but more to do with commmon sense, organization, prioritizing....id draw up an nhs constitution too...to keep hearst and minds focused. at least the government and nhs seems to have gotten on top of the mrsa epidemic

[joeysteele]

Pssst... they already do :hehe: .

Put simply Hunt has promised the country that he will 'deliver a seven day NHS', meaning more non-emergency services will be available on the weekend. However, he wants to do this without spending any extra money. He's therefore decided to sretch the current resources more thinly over seven days rather than five, creating a situation where junior doctors (at the moment, other health professionals will likely be next) are overworked and overtired. This isn't safe. Tired doctors make mistakes, and unlike employees of other massive organisations, when doctors make mistakes, it costs lives.

Excellently put and well said.

This is it in a nutshell, it has always been the Junior Doctors arguments on this issue.
It is this govt that will 'not' listen seriously to their concerns on the matter.

I, from talking to my family who are Junior Doctors have said this many times on here too.
Sadly it does seem to be heading to the case where people and this govt would be happy to lose Doctors, otherwise they would be going all out to make sure 'all' of them were happy and to keep them.

If people now go against the Junior Doctors and then those Doctors leave the Country to work where they would be really appreciated, it will no good regretting that, if they are gone and this contract is wrongly imposed on the ones left in the English NHS,
Only the English NHS that is,as no new contracts are being imposed anywhere else in the UK.

[joeysteele]

Being a regular at our NHS hospital over the past 2 years, I dread to think what would happen to me without it tbh. I would be dead in a gutter somewhere by now I assume. Which would suit the Tories quite well given I am currently not a taxpayer and am simply as sponge on society what with my disability and all :S

Most doctors are not millionaires either.

I stand behind them in everything, I owe them my life.

I do too Vicky.
I also know how really hard they work too.

[bots]

this has everything to do with self entitlement, nothing to do with patient care

[Cherie]

One million cancelled outpatients appointments, 125,000 procedures cancelled, it's too extreme

[joeysteele]

One million cancelled outpatients appointments, 125,000 procedures cancelled, it's too extreme

Really Cherie I agree that sounds bad on paper,however there are a massive number of outpatients appointments not kept by the people they are given to too.
Which also creates a backlog, not just in catching up with those missed appointments by giving new ones but also for others waiting for appointments.
Doctors time being wasted on waiting for people who do not turn up.

I have to say for me for one, the only 'extreme' thing as to this whole issue is the govts stubborn intention to 'impose' this contract on the Junior Doctors.
At a single stroke, the threat of that being removed would end any intent of any action at all.

The govt actually should be working fully with 'all' Doctors and medical staff in England, as to plans for any needed improvements, not sitting there endlessly dictating to them.

[Livia]

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

[joeysteele]

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

Well you are not going to get physios and OTs with this imposition of this contract and in fact, you once indicated you were against solidly the imposition of this contract, calling it as I recall another nail in the Tories coffin at the time then.
Now with some escalation of action and yet still the imposition of this atrocious contract, you say the Doctors may lose support.

All this contract is going to do is create 'more' tired Doctors, not really help at all, and the added anger at anything 'imposed' will make things worse.

I know of many people who have now had scans done on a Sunday morning and you even state in your own post,any emergency care is in fact there at weekends if needed by Doctors.

What is needed is more of the social care aspect where many who are in hospital can be at home, hospital really should only be for emergency and ongoing needed observed care.
The imposition of this contract will do nothing to address that issue of vitally needed care and support for those out of hospital who do not really need to be in hospital,nor will it as to physios or Occupational Therapists, this contract only applies to Junior Doctors, not those groups.

It is trust managers for me,who should be the ones looked at,with their seemingly endless number of 'clipboard' staff walking round the place, contributing not a thing to hands on care.

Any govt. imposing unwanted and considered dangerous contracts on to top professionals who already know their duty and are overworked now,never mind under this contract, will help nothing and cause more disillusionment and loss of good Doctors as to and in the NHS.

It is your govt that is insisting on the imposing of this contract and I repeat again, the threat of imposing it being removed would stop any future action being taken immediately by all Doctors.

It is time this Health secretary, (as well as his predecessor Lansley should have too),learned how to talk to people and not at them.
This PM by leaving Hunt in place left the confrontation door wide open again as to this issue.
His smug and dismissive attitude causing more problems than it will ever solve in my view.

If I were a junior Doctor, I would do what my Cousins have and are doing, just leave, then go where I would be treated with appreciation and not be dictated to.
If you think that is right and the Doctors should lose support for that stance, I think that's unfair.
Also just why should Doctors in England have a contract imposed on them, when elsewhere in the UK such is not being done.

The Junior Doctors never just had selective support from me,they had and still have all my support.
It is his govt that has brought the situation to this point not the Doctors because of its refusal to remove the imposing of this contract on them.

Preferring to dictate to Doctors rather than work with them. you may possibly find that admirable,I never will and I hope others do not too and stick with giving support to the Junior Doctors over this shocking and unnecessary govt. policy.

[smudgie]

So, I have to wonder why the doctors, or their union have backtracked on the 18th May agreement with ACAS..
They had agreed to this contract, could it possibly be that with a new PM at the helm they thought they would chance their arm? Quite mystifying really.
I also rely greatly on the NHS to keep me going, but I am afraid I am losing sympathy for the junior doctors that decided to strike, the way they are trying to hold the country to ransom, at the risk of their patients is disgusting.
I really do think it will do them more harm than good, it is the ones that haven't voted to strike that I feel sorry for.

[Toy Soldier]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

[joeysteele]

So, I have to wonder why the doctors, or their union have backtracked on the 18th May agreement with ACAS..
They had agreed to this contract, could it possibly be that with a new PM at the helm they thought they would chance their arm? Quite mystifying really.
I also rely greatly on the NHS to keep me going, but I am afraid I am losing sympathy for the junior doctors that decided to strike, the way they are trying to hold the country to ransom, at the risk of their patients is disgusting.
I really do think it will do them more harm than good, it is the ones that haven't voted to strike that I feel sorry for.

The BMA talking to the govt thought a way forward had been found, however in the vote afterwards the Junior Doctors themselves voted against this contract and its imposition.

Long before a new PM was in place or possibly likely.

So what should Junior Doctors do, the public have as a majority supported them saying this is wrong and the contract should not be imposed.
The leading medics say it is wrong.
Consultants say the imposition is wrong.

Most other Parties in Parliament think it is wrong, even UKIP said it should not be just imposed.

However this govt. says it should and that it will do so, listening to no one.
yet now some are not attacking the govt here, while at the same time saying the Junior Doctors are holding the Country to ransom.

When near all except the govt,are saying the same thing yet this govt refuses to listen and step back, only from the imposing of this contract forcibly.
What are the Junior Doctors to do, just carry on and say this contract is dangerous but lie back and take it.

No Doctor wants to withhold his or her care but if no one in govt is listening to them what do they do.
The only other option for them other than striking, is to actually leave the English NHS completely.
If people would prefer that to happen, then what kind of NHS would England have then.

If anyone is forcing this action and patients being disrupted, it is in fact the govt who have made a massive mess of this not only for years but even moreso now with its stubborn dictatorial attitude towards this contract.
How the govt and Hunt particularly are now getting any support is beyond me for their total ignorance.

If any Junior Doctor now asked me if I thought they were right to strike,I would say yes, adding at the same time but you would be better telling this govt what to do with its contract and give notice,go to other areas of the UK or other Nations where their work will be eagerly greeted and they will be fully appreciated for the skills they have.
Because public opinion here, ('not all' ),can be selective, fair weathered friend like only, from a good number and only when it suits them too.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

:clap1:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

[joeysteele]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

Absolutely right TS.
It will be Junior Doctors who either leave or fail to make a success of this contract who will be blamed for all that goes wrong in the NHS after the imposing of this contract by some, never this rotten shameless govt.

The NHS staff are still struggling with coming to terms with the top down re-organisation done after 2011, that few wanted and Cameron and the Conservatives said was never going to take place.

The govt. getting away with that too.

[Toy Soldier]

Absolutely right TS.
It will be Junior Doctors who either leave or fail to make a success of this contract who will be blamed for all that goes wrong in the NHS after the imposing of this contract by some, never this rotten shameless govt.

The NHS staff are still struggling with coming to terms with the top down re-organisation done after 2011, that few wanted and Cameron and the Conservatives said was never going to take place.

The govt. getting away with that too.
So many don't take the time to peak beneath the curtain though Joey... All they see is the illusion that's created. For every one who sees it there are ten or more who never will... So it will sadly never change.

[Tom4784]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

:clap1:

[Cherie]

They will lose support if they carry on with 5 day strikes, this is playing right into the governments hands. I'm not sure how well supported these strikes will be even by the junior doctors themselves

[bots]

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

How will ending the junior doctors strike provide physios or OTs on a weekend? Your mother receives two home visits a day that is a fantastic level of care of which many would be over the moon with.
I'm wondering if what she has done is something family could help with? it would free up a valuable visit.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

[Kizzy]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

:worship:

[bots]

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

absolute fiction

[Livia]

How will ending the junior doctors strike provide physios or OTs on a weekend? Your mother receives two home visits a day that is a fantastic level of care of which many would be over the moon with.
I'm wondering if what she has done is something family could help with? it would free up a valuable visit.

It's so tiresome having to explain these things, but here we go...

I mentioned physios and OTs because people are saying that the NHS is already a 24 hour service which it is not.

Two visits by two different nurses when one visit to do two things would have been enough is madness and it's typical of the bloody shambles that is the NHS.

It is nothing whatsoever to do with you to suggest that my mother's treatment could be carried out by the family. What a ****ing nerve....

[Kizzy]

absolute fiction

Let's trust the minister who wrote a book about the privatisation of the NHS then?

:umm2:

[Livia]

With both my kids having congenital conditions I just daren't envisage this :(

Maybe your family could help with the treatment and free up a nurse.

[Kizzy]

Maybe your family could help with the treatment and free up a nurse.

They don't require a nurse just an annual consultant appointment for now.

[Kizzy]

It's so tiresome having to explain these things, but here we go...

I mentioned physios and OTs because people are saying that the NHS is already a 24 hour service which it is not.

Two visits by two different nurses when one visit to do two things would have been enough is madness and it's typical of the bloody shambles that is the NHS.

It is nothing whatsoever to do with you to suggest that my mother's treatment could be carried out by the family. What a ****ing nerve....

If you don't wish to discuss things a discussion forum is mot the best place for you is it?

Again regardless of what happens to the contracts it won't impact on any other service, junior doctors do work 7 days however therefore their service is 24/7.

It was not designed to cause offence at all, they may have separate specialisms perhaps?

[Livia]

If you don't wish to discuss things a discussion forum is mot the best place for you is it?

Again regardless of what happens to the contracts it won't impact on any other service, junior doctors do work 7 days however therefore their service is 24/7.

It was not designed to cause offence at all, they may have separate specialisms perhaps?

Actually, it was something one nurse could have done in one visit. THEY said that, not me. District nurses are rushed off their feet at the best of times so it would help if they, or whoever does the rotas, could be a bit more organised.

I used my mother's experience as an anecdotal reference which was valid. It's not your business whether she needs nursing care or the family could do it.

[Kizzy]

Actually, it was something one nurse could have done in one visit. THEY said that, not me. District nurses are rushed off their feet at the best of times so it would help if they, or whoever does the rotas, could be a bit more organised.

I used my mother's experience as an anecdotal reference which was valid. It's not your business whether she needs nursing care or the family could do it.

One error is not indicative of a failing service.

You have made that clear, by asking me the same was that you making that point or just being facetious?

[Livia]

One error is not indicative of a failing service.

You have made that clear, by asking me the same was that you making that point or just being facetious?

If it was one error that would be amazing. But is isn't... It's been a series of ridiculous **** ups. For instance, she's been prescribed Warfarin when her stroke was due to a bleed, not a clot, and Warfarin could have killed her. Luckily, the family spotted it. There's been a whole host of mistakes that've come one after another.

That was me making a point. Obviously.

[Kizzy]

If it was one error that would be amazing. But is isn't... It's been a series of ridiculous **** ups. For instance, she's been prescribed Warfarin when her stroke was due to a bleed, not a clot, and Warfarin could have killed her. Luckily, the family spotted it. There's been a whole host of mistakes that've come one after another.

That was me making a point. Obviously.

But again how is the imposition of the junior drs contracts to remedy this?

[the truth]

Junior doctors do not cover weekends to anywhere near the same amount of working hours. That is partly why weekend service is sub standard. To say otherwise is a lie

[joeysteele]

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

That is absolutely correct, the Junior Doctors know that, we do not and the govt. that does nothing as to work in hospitals does not either.

The Junior Doctors know this is a dangerous contract as to real 'quality' care of patients, that is why they are so against it.

Anything can look like it will work in theory, the practice of it is often a very different outcome.

The Junior Doctors further know, if patients suffer even more than now,after the imposition of this contract, then they will be the ones being blamed for the errors and things being overlooked.

Incredible to me, how so few blame the government handling of this and are so eager it appears to see public support for the Doctors to slip away.
If this was a Labour govt. 'forcing' a contract on the Junior Doctors,the criticism of that govt would be deafening probably on here.
Deafening from me too would it be as to whatever govt was in power,as for me the imposing of this contract is utterly wrong.

If it goes ahead,and is imposed against the will of the Junior Doctors, I do sadly hope that more and more Junior Doctors then throw in the towel and leave the English NHS, taking their badly needed skills and caring elsewhere, to a far more appreciative people and nation, rather than this one.

[joeysteele]

But again how is the imposition of the junior drs contracts to remedy this?

It isn't Kizzy, it will not remedy anything, all it will create is more suspicion and disillusionment.

You are right, you are possibly wasting your time my friend but the very best of luck in your decent quest in trying to get that point across as how bad this imposing of the contract will be.

[the truth]

That is absolutely correct, the Junior Doctors know that, we do not and the govt. that does nothing as to work in hospitals does not either.

The Junior Doctors know this is a dangerous contract as to real 'quality' care of patients, that is why they are so against it.

Anything can look like it will work in theory, the practice of it is often a very different outcome.

The Junior Doctors further know, if patients suffer even more than now,after the imposition of this contract, then they will be the ones being blamed for the errors and things being overlooked.

Incredible to me, how so few blame the government handling of this and are so eager it appears to see public support for the Doctors to slip away.
If this was a Labour govt. 'forcing' a contract on the Junior Doctors,the criticism of that govt would be deafening probably on here.
Deafening from me too would it be as to whatever govt was in power,as for me the imposing of this contract is utterly wrong.

If it goes ahead,and is imposed against the will of the Junior Doctors, I do sadly hope that more and more Junior Doctors then throw in the towel and leave the English NHS, taking their badly needed skills and caring elsewhere, to a far more appreciative people and nation, rather than this one.

it is absolutely incorrect as Ive explained to you 101 times before...junior doctors work 19 hours less hours maximum per week on this contract than the old one. FACT. this contract simply spreads the weekend workload between more junior doctors. the junior doctors strike is purely about money, they want double time at weekends. simple.

[joeysteele]

it is absolutely incorrect as Ive explained to you 101 times before...junior doctors work 19 hours less hours maximum per week on this contract than the old one. FACT. this contract simply spreads the weekend workload between more junior doctors. the junior doctors strike is purely about money, they want double time at weekends. simple.

It isn't and I know it isn't,which is why 2 of my Cousins who were Junior Doctors, have now left the NHS in England and are moving abroad now.
They were only concerned as to the welfare of the Patients long term and felt under this contract, they would be too far stretched with even less time for quality care too.

You and I do not agree on this issue and haven't all through however I always respect and should respect,that you have had really bad experiences as to the NHS in the past.

I do though know personally my Cousins, none of whom are greedy and just wanting more money.

However, they are 2, with 2 more to follow, who have now joined those who already have left the NHS and many others will follow if this contract is in fact imposed on Doctors.
If anyone really believes that will actually help the NHS or make for a much better 7 day service, a big shock as to that is more than likely now coming.
Once those Doctors are gone and are fully appreciated elsewhere, respect for their caring and skill coming then will be too late from those in England.
Very, very sadly in my view.

[the truth]

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

[joeysteele]

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

I criticised Labour a lot as to the NHS too,very heavily from 2006.

I wasn't on here then, Labour should have built up and ensured protection for the NHS but did not do so, they should have ensured privatisation would have been near impossible.

However, Labour I doubt would be trying to, or would in any way get away with at all, imposing this contract on Junior Doctors.

Labour disappointed me too as to not dealing with the waste from NHS managers in the NHS, to me they are like parasites as to the NHS.

Back to this issue however, this govt. has handled this terribly, what the govt. are doing in threatening to 'impose' this contract is simply wrong and for that the Junior Doctors have my support and always will.
This is a crisis, in my opinion,of this goverment's making not the Junior Doctors at all.

[Vicky.]

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

It makes sense for GP surgeries to be open weekends. It could work here quite well as we have 8 separate doctors under one surgery and a couple could cover mainly weekends, or split it all equally. What wouldn't be acceptable was to expect those 8 GPs to still do the hours they currently do and forcing them to cover weekends too..and maybe take a paycut, which is the way it would likely be pushed onto them. And then people would support the government in that too as it would be the 'greedy GPs who don't want to work weekends' rather than people looking at it objectively

On a side note, our surgery trialed half day opening on a Saturday not long ago..its over now but I do wonder what came of it. Will mention it on thursday when I am next there as I imagine it was popular. Would definitely take the pressure off A&E though if this was more widespread

Also I said nothing about the GP contracts in 2004 as I knew **** all about politics back then and didn't even know anything about the contract you speak about :p

[the truth]

Look it up please it's insane

[Johnnyuk123]

the people leading this disgusting revolt which will result in the deaths of 1000s of innocent people just to get the millionare doctors even more cash and time off at weekends need to be replaced asap...they are scum

The millionaire doctors are not the junior doctors. That is the senior staff.:nono:

[the truth]

The millionaire doctors are not the junior doctors. That is the senior staff.:nono:

Juniors have been doctors for a decade or more. Many are millions airs

[Toy Soldier]

Juniors have been doctors for a decade or more. Many are millions airs

:joker: How much do you think doctors actually earn, Truth? A Junior doctor working for 10 years and saving EVERY SINGLE PENNY is unlikely to have £500k, let alone a million. And then there's those pesky things like rent, clothes and food chipping away at the balance.

6 figure salaries start at MUCH more senior grades.

[Tom4784]

Millionaire junior doctors :laugh:

Oh Truth, sometimes I love you.

[the truth]

It's true some do private . Many have been doctors over 10 yrs plus enormous overtime ...some earn over £200k per annum in overtime

[Cherie]

:joker: How much do you think doctors actually earn, Truth? A Junior doctor working for 10 years and saving EVERY SINGLE PENNY is unlikely to have £500k, let alone a million. And then there's those pesky things like rent, clothes and food chipping away at the balance.

6 figure salaries start at MUCH more senior grades.


You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s, there are all sorts of extras they can earn in addition to overtime, they can work for drug companies in an advisory capacity, if they specialise they can be paid to give talks at meeting, where all expenses are by the drug company, they can edit Medical journals and be paid for it, most run private clinics alongside their NHS clinic, the NHS salary is just the basic, good luck to them, they work hard for it but they can earn serious salaries

[Toy Soldier]

You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

[joeysteele]

You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s, there are all sorts of extras they can earn in addition to overtime, they can work for drug companies in an advisory capacity, if they specialise they can be paid to give talks at meeting, where all expenses are by the drug company, they can edit Medical journals and be paid for it, most run private clinics alongside their NHS clinic, the NHS salary is just the basic, good luck to them, they work hard for it but they can earn serious salaries

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

[bots]

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

[Cherie]

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

The point I'm making is junior doctors move up the scale pretty quickly, so the time they actually are "junior" can be as short as 5 years, I never mentioned the word millionaire

[Cherie]

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

5 years is more the norm than 15, ...15 would be more realistically applied to the ones who are happy to remain within their grade and do not actively seek promotion, but they will be on the top end of the junior doctor scale earning around 70k basic ( which in London is not a high salary tbf)


I agree they should be well remunerated so I agree with you on that Joey

[AProducer'sWetDream]

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

[bots]

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office

[Tom4784]

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

[bots]

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

[Toy Soldier]

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office
This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

[Kizzy]

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

[Tom4784]

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

Not getting personal at all, stop trying to take the topic off course.

[the truth]

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

[the truth]

This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

sometimes privatising certain areas is better..compare the computer systems in nhs wales to nhs england...this is why englands waiting lists are way way shorter...they have a national database....the mindless socialist unionist way of non thinking is what brought about the collapse of coal too...they must find a compromise they must engage their brains

..especially when the service still remains free and the service and waiting lists fall...in the end thats all that matters

[the truth]

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

hunt is 100% irrelevant...the nhs must become 7 day a week at the same level that means 4 day on 4 day off doctors contracts...it also means in time we must tear up the insane 2004 gp doctors contract allowing them all to avoid all out of hours work

[Kizzy]

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

[the truth]

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

labour did that....remmeber mrsa everywhere at 70 times the rate of sweden?
remember the endless cover ups and abuses? 1500 patients died of thirst in stafford....doctors admitted they were bullied and intimidated not to complain, the ombudsmen and complaints system collapsed....endless cover ups, in wales they took body parts without authorisation....the waiting lists in wales under labour are insane compared to england....the way its run with these monstrous trusts is totally wasteful and corrupt and in many ways plain stupid....their block booking systems are crazy, you cant get scanned at weekends, you cant get your test results for simple things like eye tests for up to 6 to 10 weeks? in england you get the results the same day

the welsh nhs is an absolute shambles

[the truth]

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

again its really simple maths...at present less than a third work weekends and the mass of workload falls on those few junior doctors who overwork up to 91 hours..under the new contracts they all work some weekends so the workload is spread more evenly throughout ALL junior doctors...please understand this basic fact. forget tory v labour for a moment. this is why all huge organizations use these 4 day on 4 day off continental work shift patterns. the nhs should of course do exactly the same.

[the truth]

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

the nhs cant afford to pay these rich people double time or more for working weekends....further more all junior doctors should have to work some weekends as a compulsory part of their contracts to spread the workload throughout the doctors to ensure the minority are not overworked...under labour junior doctors work up to 91 hours, that is insane. under the tories that is reduced to maximum 72 hours. so its labour who overwork them in their hairbrained system. yet its labour who preach about the poor tired doctors. labour are full of BS

[the truth]

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

They do earn considerable amounts of money with incredible pensions too...The pension issue shouldnt be devalued ...these days youd need to spend £1 million pounds to earn a £50,000 pension per annum...These doctors get pensions in excess of £50,000 p/a
However to pay them more money where does that money come from?
well Id suggest 1) we abolish the GP contract of 2004 to get more GPs doing some out fo hours. This is in effect takes massive rpessure off all hospitals and all junior doctors, which would save the nhs a fortune , especially in extra staffing hours and overtime

now were out fo the bankrupt EU we will finally be allowed to recruit the 10,000s of nurses and doctors we need outside of europe. get recruiting. this will not only improve everything it will save the nhs billions in recruting tmeporary staff cover at double the rates

massively reduce the trusts and the trust members and staff. I have dealth with these dreadful people they add nothing to the nhs, they save nothing, they are not medically qualified they simply bleed money out of the nhs....reduce the salaries of the CEO's too.....Matrons are good they are on £81,000 thats a hefty salary. strengthen the obudsmen and the complaints procedures , this is far better than cover ups. the problems must be addressed honestly and openly or they are never fixed

pump more money into the front end. i.e in getting millions more people scanned far quicker with results in many cases the same day. this will save billions in the long run. billions saved in bed blocking, in taking excess medicataions, in seeing people get sicker....get people scanned quicker, get them diagnosed , treated and better...atm many multi million pound machines are simply not used...in my local one machine that finds kidney stones is used 3 hours a week?

a lot of this is common sense practice

[Kizzy]

again its really simple maths...at present less than a third work weekends and the mass of workload falls on those few junior doctors who overwork up to 91 hours..under the new contracts they all work some weekends so the workload is spread more evenly throughout ALL junior doctors...please understand this basic fact. forget tory v labour for a moment. this is why all huge organizations use these 4 day on 4 day off continental work shift patterns. the nhs should of course do exactly the same.

Again who is going to fund this?

[Toy Soldier]

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

[the truth]

Again who is going to fund this?

if you read what i said properly, you dont need extra money, money is not always the answer , you just change where the money is going...

1) scrap some health boards and concentrate more into less
2) massive overhaul of who sits on these boards and earns a fortune. why do we need so many people on massive salaraies who are not medically qualified and do not save lives
3) when we build hospital lifts ensure all parts are available long term in this country. many hospital lifts become extoncy effectively after a few yrs as we cant get the parts. this is mindless
4) 4 day on 4 day off work shifts for EVERYONE. this ensures the standards are maintaiend, this massively reduces the waiting lists as hospitals dont half close down at weekends then start up again monday
5) early testing will save a fortune in medication, in staffing, in bed blocking etc
6) getting people scanned and cured ealrier means more people working paying into the system, less people needing sickness benefits...both put more money into the system
7) the stronger ombudesmen will allow contructive criticisms to be made privately and then acted on to improve the system
8) write an nhs constitution so that every buys into the culture and has an over view of what the nhs is for and what its mant to achieve. its for the patients , period
9) gp 2004 contracts scrapped so they must do some out of hours. again takes pressure off the nhs and saves them money long term
10) recruiting staff outside the eu will save billions , at the moment billions are wasted on paying for temporary staffing. outside the eu we can recuit as many doctors and nurses permanently outside the eu , this will save tens of billions

There are almost infinite inefficiencies in the nhs....having a uk wide database for all waiting lists is the best way forward....if you need urgent scanning for kidney stones go on the uk national database and guess what you may get seen in a week rather than 6 months....wouldnt you travel to north wales for a day if it saved you 6 months of agony?


one other massive area they are getting it right in scotland and wrong everywhere else is in scotland

where they have merged the social care with the nhs care udner 1 roof
in england and wales the social are permanently at war with the nhs over who covers what care and who pays for it

its insane and it destroys families too

all under 1 roof....this saves the endless back and forth
it saves the endless ridiculous battles over caring for people at home too

furthermore the nhs need to ensure all patients who do have private care policies actually utilise these policies to cover some of these expenses

for example if you had a £20,000 per annum care policy but your care at home costs £40,000 there is no reason why the patients cant use £20,000 of his policy then the nhs covers the rest....this saves them £20,000 a year
multiply that by the millions cared for at home and your taling billions per annum

this saldy is NOT the way its done now...usually this private policy money is not cashed in and the nhs loses billions and the insurance companies are let off the hook

its just stupid

[the truth]

Again who is going to fund this?

again it doesnt need more money

[joeysteele]

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

[the truth]

I now have come to the view that instead of striking, those Junior Doctors who really feel this contract will be dangerous to Patients and not allow them the due time to care for patients.
Should just pack it up and go off to nations that respect Doctors and more to the point, having those good Doctors.

Let's see how the govt. then will provide a better 7 day service than now and how in fact the NHS will manage without those good Doctors being walked all over by this govt. now.


If Patients are being held to ransom in any way at all, it is the govt with its total refusal to remove the threat of imposing this contract who are the ones guilty of creating the climate for that to happen.

Let those who think these Doctors are money grabbers, lazy, being provocative, then put their faith fully in this govt. since this pompous govt thinks it knows it all.

Let us also then see what kind of NHS is left if this govt. continues to be stubborn and not listen, then really heaven help anyone who cannot afford any treatment and who then dare to even think of being, never mind get ill and in need of medical help.

Maybe then, those running down the Doctors in this dispute, may possibly come to realise they should have in fact stood up for, and fought, to keep such Doctors.
Rather than support a rotten govt, (who likely couldn't treat a sore throat, never mind save peoples life),to just trample over the Junior Doctors and all their valid concerns.
Honestly, I despair more and more at times at what I see and hear from some of my Countrymen and women.

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

[Kizzy]

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

[the truth]

Thought you said it wasn't a political thing?...make your mind up :/

its simple maths which all the tory haters here cant understand

[Tom4784]

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

Please, tell me more about these millionaire JDs.

[joeysteele]

when will you ever learn...labour want them to work 91 hours, tories want to reduce that to 72 hours

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.

[MTVN]

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategorized/1723039/only-1-in-20-junior-doctors-support-militant-leaders-latest-plans-for-5-day-strike-action/

[joeysteele]

LESS than five per cent of junior doctors backed the five-day walkouts ordered by militant bosses, The Sun on Sunday can reveal.

Strike leaders now fear thousands of the medics will cross picket lines as they do not support the action.

The walkout, due to start next week, will cause 500,000 operations to be cancelled and four million appointments lost, hospitals association NHS Providers has said.

And sources have described the strikes as a step too far that will put patients’ lives at risk.

Some 37,770 of England’s 55,000 junior doctors are members of the British Medical Association, giving them a vote on industrial action.

But just 20 per cent (7,540) returned an August ballot on the fresh strikes set to begin on September 12.

And only 31.5 per cent (2,375) of those who did vote backed the full five-day walkouts.

That means the monthly strikes that will see medics abandon hospital departments including A&E, maternity and intensive care were supported by just 4.3 per cent of junior doctors.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategorized/1723039/only-1-in-20-junior-doctors-support-militant-leaders-latest-plans-for-5-day-strike-action/


Well lets see if the govt. does nothing and this goes ahead, just how many Junior Doctors do actually leave their posts.

The fact is Junior Doctors do 'not' want to strike, however they are not being listened to.

2 of my Cousins are leaving the UK,with 2 more to follow later,I am not happy that they, who worked so hard and studied so hard to become Doctors are now so mad at the govt and the idea of this contract, that they are leaving the UK completely.

Why, because they believe now that this govt will impose this contract against all the will of all across the NHS and so, for Doctors, it is a waste of time expecting anything better now from this govt or England as to the NHS and this contract.

Strike or no strike, England and this Govt may realise, after the imposing of this contract, eventually,(once many more clear off to places where people will appreciate them),that they had gems of Doctors working in the NHS that have been driven away by this badly planned contract.

Too late then to admit the govt was wrong and support for this govt on this issue was badly misguided due to misleading info from said govt.

As to what state the NHS will be after that, well England and this govt will get all it deserves and masses of Patients really sadly being the ones to pay the price for a govt unable to be reasonable and being plain stubborn.

As for the Govts 7 day week plan, that is almost dead in the water anyway even before this dispute,after the loss to come of many really good Doctors,if this contract is just imposed, it will then be likely impossible to bring about.
It will be hard enough to even come close to providing what is the service now.

Funny how now we should take notice of numbers who did not vote,yet on other issues anyone not voting on something should be ignored.

[MTVN]

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

[Cherie]

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.



:clap2:

[the truth]

They don't and if you went and talked to Junior Doctors' they would explain it far clearer than I could.

They want to cut the working week true,however still expecting the Junior Doctors to work more as to overtime but at a single rate.
Even as to the old 'unsocial' hours rule that was in place before this contract.

They are actually going to expect Junior Doctors particularly to cover more days, more hours with the same number of Doctors.

It is just not common sense in my view to believe the govt when they say they are reducing Doctors hours,not reducing their pay at all yet will be able to provide longer services daily and the same at weekends.

The govts plans and the holes in their weird logic as to this contract are there to see if looked for.

They are cutting the basic hours and removing the point at where overtime is seen as 'working unsocial' hours, they will still have to do in addition to their set weekly hours.

This plan is going to tire Doctors more, it is not going be a full service at weekends unless they open up many more hours to radiologists, anaesthetists and also more of the social care aspects too.
Doctors are going to have to be there all round the clock, that has to mean they will be juggled from through the week to cover the weekends fully.
That is surely going to more than likely result in errors and oversights through the week.
At present any emergency needed to be done at weekends is done,anything that can easily wait until a weekday is fine.

If the govt were putting in many more Doctors and also Nurses,plus the radiologists and anaesthetists too at weekends,then this plan could have a chance to work.
This contract is doing none of that, all it is doing is on the surface reducing Junior Doctors basic hours, while in reality they will be expected to still work as much if not more but for less.
More hours not less,less on paper but in practice actually more and possibly a lot more.

Tired Doctors will make mistakes.
A 7 day full NHS provision is a good idea but only when the plan is right and includes all the other people in it, that Doctors will need to actually be able to do more at weekends.
Less Junior Doctors through the week,being stretched more in order to cover at weekends, with not the support and all other people needed alongside them to do proper care,which this plan fails to provide miserably, will, I agree with the Junior Doctors, be dangerous to Patients.

On the surface, from the govt presentation, it appears a reasonable contract, however dig really into it and analyse it all, not bits of it,as the Junior Doctors have, then the holes are found bigtime.

The simple thing about it all is, it should never need to be imposed if it really were a good contract, the Consultants, the Nursing staff and all connected with the NHS, despite some of them having misgivings as to the strike action planned, still say it is wrong to impose this contract without the Junior Doctors agreement.

The govt is not expecting Junior Doctors to end up working less hours, they want at least the same at least, but really far more,however for less, with even more stretching of them to cover weekend services too.

What the govt are saying makes no sense at all.


the tories have reduced the maximum hours by 19 hours, labour are insane they expect doctors to work 91 hours and they let gp's off the hook totally

its not single rate either that is simply wrong

[the truth]

Its worth remembering though that the government and the BMA did agree a contract after the government made further concessions following two years of conflict. We should all have breathed a sigh of relief at that and been thankful that the situation was eventually resolved through negotiations.

Unfortunately there is an element amongst the BMA who utterly refuse to compromise and have hijacked the whole thing. No way are these 5 day strikes a proportionate response, no way. I know the default response on things like this is often 'support the doctors' and '**** the Tories' but these strikes are a disgrace and there is not evidence of enough support for it even amongst the junior doctors themselves.

the bosses there are pure scum and will be sued for billions when innocent people die because of their bully boy tactics

[joeysteele]

I give up here,I will wait and see the moans and groans when there are far fewer Junior Doctors, not only left in the NHS but less and less coming forward to be trained as same too.

Maybe then people will see the wrong of a govt,forcing the very people it should be keeping on board as to any planning for the NHS, to work on a contract those Doctors believe to be unfair and dangerous.

Some group is going to be proven correct if this contract is imposed,and my money would go on the Junior Doctors being so.

It will just be so sad that England will have lost a great many of those skilled and dedicated professionals because of the deliberate stubborn awkwardness of a dictatorial govt.

Of course, maybe the people who are against the Junior Doctors on this, will then get what they possibly want, a fully privatised Health service.

Good luck to all with that one.

Thank all powers that be for Scotland and Wales who would never impose such a contract on their Doctors.
Preferring to work with the Junior Doctors and other NHS staff, rather than dictate to them.

[Toy Soldier]

I give up here,I will wait and see the moans and groans when there are far fewer Junior Doctors, not only left in the NHS but less and less coming forward to be trained as same too.

Maybe then people will see the wrong of a govt,forcing the very people it should be keeping on board as to any planning for the NHS, to work on a contract those Doctors believe to be unfair and dangerous.

Some group is going to be proven correct if this contract is imposed, and my money would go on the Junior Doctors being so.



You still have such optimism Joey! They will of course be proven correct to those of us who can already see it; those who can't still won't see the wrongdoing of the government, still won't think it's their fault... they'll still blame those within the NHS itself, and the doctors.

[joeysteele]

You still have such optimism Joey! They will of course be proven correct to those of us who can already see it; those who can't still won't see the wrongdoing of the government, still won't think it's their fault... they'll still blame those within the NHS itself, and the doctors.

I know TS. Blindly supporting a bad govt decision is not for me, even if it was my party in govt,
If Labour were doing this contract, I would be slamming them left, right and centre on here too.

Anyway I stay solid with my support for the Junior Doctors.

They are the people I would gladly trust with my life, not this pathetic govt who have brought disillusionment, confusion and massive concern in the NHS from 2011 onwards.
First with the top down re-organisation that was promised never to be going to happen.
Also now this dangerous contract which has brought Doctors to the last resort of striking, for the first time since the mid 70s for goodness sake.

[Jack_]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it :(

[Kizzy]

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it :(

Yep, my sentiments exactly Jack :(

[the truth]

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it :(
party truth partly fiction

some of this is exaggerated hysterical paranoia conspiracy theories.....the nhs collapsed under labour , the waiting lists are down the mrsa and diseases are down, the ombudsmen complaints procedures have been strengthened...to privatise small parts of the nhs to ensure the whole thing runs better and the service is better and the waiting lists are shorter but the service is still free then that is for the good...the numbers getting private insurance cover has actually fallen which counters your argument...we must tear up the insane 2004 labour / gp doctors contract which let them off out of hours work....gp doctors MUST sign a new contract where they must cover some out of hours
The real corruption is in the medicines and tablets being bought up by private companies across the globe. cancer tablets costing 50p to make resold at £500? the amount of cancer treatments only available privately is a disgrace
in my experience the nhs was better under thatcher than under new labour, but that simply underlines how corrupt stupid and wasteful new labour were

[joeysteele]

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it :(

Absolutely right, although I would go as far as to say as to the sentiment at the very end your post, that a good number of those against the Junior Doctors do see it.
However they will not admit in any shape or form,this govt could be wrong and may even 'want' to see too the near or full privatisation of the English NHS.

You are correct totally Jack_, this is exactly what this govt is doing, treating the people who work for it and at present particularly the junior Doctors like dog****.

How anyone can support that and switch the blame to the Junior Doctors only is totally beyond my understanding I am afraid.

[the truth]

Blsm3 the new labour idiots too for the insane 2004 gp contract which must be destroyed

[bots]

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

[joeysteele]

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

Great news but I hope now the govt will make the right move and stop being so confrontational.

[the truth]

Great news but I hope now the govt will make the right move and stop being so confrontational.

Glad the doctors realise their own immorality
. Time doctors in Wales and Scotland strike about working 91 hours. Funny they don't? Oh yes because they get double time. It's ALL about the money.

[smudgie]

the strikes due from the 12th -16th have been called off .... whew

Wonder if the fact that the GMC were not happy about it had anything to do with the decision?

[joeysteele]

Wonder if the fact that the GMC were not happy about it had anything to do with the decision?

I think all groups not just the GMC have been behind this move.

The Junior Doctors do not want to strike,many of them themselves have indicated they think this strike was too much too soon.
Many other sections have said it would cause really big problems.

So that has been listened to, and this first set of strikes are now called off,
thankfully.

Sadly from his rhetoric still, it seems from Hunt all they will get is more ignorance and more kicking them in the teeth.
At least those involved in this strike action have listened,unlike this govt. and Hunt.

Even now, although it will never and cannot happen but even now, if Hunt ad the govt. asked parliament to vote on the imposing of this contract and all MPs had a free vote,a really strong number of Conservative MPs would also even vote against it being imposed.

[the truth]

I think all groups not just the GMC have been behind this move.

The Junior Doctors do not want to strike,many of them themselves have indicated they think this strike was too much too soon.
Many other sections have said it would cause really big problems.

So that has been listened to, and this first set of strikes are now called off,
thankfully.

Sadly from his rhetoric still, it seems from Hunt all they will get is more ignorance and more kicking them in the teeth.
At least those involved in this strike action have listened,unlike this govt. and Hunt.

Even now, although it will never and cannot happen but even now, if Hunt ad the govt. asked parliament to vote on the imposing of this contract and all MPs had a free vote,a really strong number of Conservative MPs would also even vote against it being imposed.


the government have moved loads of times, the bms hasnt budged one inch since the start

[joeysteele]

the government have moved loads of times, the bms hasnt budged one inch since the start

Not enough, they have moved on minor issues but not on major points and this contract will in the end prove dangerous.

Remove the threat of imposing it and then they may actually get somewhere, 'if' they decide to work with the people they need in the NHS, rather than confront and dictate to them and ignoring what near everyone else says about this contract.

[the truth]

Not enough, they have moved on minor issues but not on major points and this contract will in the end prove dangerous.

Remove the threat of imposing it and then they may actually get somewhere, 'if' they decide to work with the people they need in the NHS, rather than confront and dictate to them and ignoring what near everyone else says about this contract.

thats just semantics and ego....truth is doctors have to work shift patterns which cover the weekend no matter how politely they are asked and the 2004 gp contract must be torn to shreds asap

[joeysteele]

thats just semantics and ego....truth is doctors have to work shift patterns which cover the weekend no matter how politely they are asked and the 2004 gp contract must be torn to shreds asap

GPs are not Junior Doctors,however that contract was ill advised too although more accepted by GPs.

This contract has brought massive anger and disillusionment, if Doctors say the contract is dangerous,That should be cause for alarm.
It is not only Junior Doctors who are saying its dangerous as to quality care for Patients but Consultants and indeed Nursing staff are too.

Really the govt should step back with it and amend it considerably in consultation with the Doctors, both junior and at Consultant level.

[the truth]

GPs are not Junior Doctors,however that contract was ill advised too although more accepted by GPs.

This contract has brought massive anger and disillusionment, if Doctors say the contract is dangerous,That sould be cause for alarm.
It is not only Junior Doctors who are saying its dangerous as to quality care for Patient but Consultants and indeed Nursing staff are too.

Really the govt should step back with it and amend it considerably in consultation with the Doctors, both junior and at Consultant level.

the contracts in wales and scotland are way way way more dangerous, allowing doctors to work 91 hours a week? the doctors dont complain there simply because theyre getting double time at weekends. proving yet again this is NOT about safety with these doctors but all about money

[joeysteele]

the contracts in wales and scotland are way way way more dangerous, allowing doctors to work 91 hours a week? the doctors dont complain there simply because theyre getting double time at weekends. proving yet again this is NOT about safety with these doctors but all about money

We will have to continue to disagree on this,

However how can you with the same number of Doctors,cut nearly 20 hours off their working week and then make a service to cover more days a week with no change to the other staff needed to provide on the spot care.

They are cutting the hours but they will be expecting the Junior Doctors to work the same as before at least and even more, to fully cover a 7 day service but actually for less pay.

At present, a Junior Doctor after a full on duty,would ,if they were needed to remain on duty for longer be paid unsocial rates from 7pm.
This contract moves that to start after 10pm.
You cannot possibly do the 7 day week with the present number of Junior Doctors reduced to 72 hours,that will be their set hours but they will all be expected to work a great deal more hours than that, they already have to, to provide the week in week out service.
So how can they on less hours with the same number of Doctors be able to provide more days and hours of service,it simply doesn't make sense.
That is what makes this dangerous.

IF they were putting in more Doctors and nursing staff and radiologists and anaesthetists, then 7 days would not be such a pipedream.
However, by not putting in the radiologists and anaesthetists and other auxiliary staffing too,that will mean still a lesser service at weekends.
With Junior Doctors on duty but unable to provide any change as to care, other than the emergency set up in place now.

Get the extra radiologists, anaesthetists and auxiliary staff in place and over the next year or so get more Junior Doctors in place too, then maybe at that point, this contract will be less contentious.
AS it stands, it is full of holes and dangers and that is why Junior Doctors, and as I stated before, Consultants and Nursing staff too are all against it in the main and certainly against it being imposed.

Also this is not about money the truth,it is about hours and care, the reduction of hours from 91 to 72 also comes with an increased salary to in part compensate that, however it is the other measures that are the bone of contention.

The contract would be a pretty good one if it had all the other services and people needed in place with the many extra Junior Doctors that would be needed too.

Insisting on doing far more, for less and with the same or even less people, is ridiculous,get all in place, then properly plan a full 7 day service,only then would there be a good chance of it working properly and in a fully balanced way too.
Rather than this plan which will leave the Junior Doctors in this instance having to do much more,more hours, be more tired and likely for less overall too.

My Cousins dedicated their lives to medicine and helping people ill, money was never an issue.
When they tell me this contract would wear them out more, have them working far more hours and therefore it would be dangerous for the Patients in their care, I will take their word over this govt any day of the week.
Along with all their Junior Doctor colleagues too.

They never wanted to go on strike, or end up leaving their homes in England and go elsewhere, they have been forced to by this govts arrogance,because they 'know' being on the front line of care, that they will be restricted more as to giving real quality care to patients.
If this contract is at this time imposed on the English NHS Junior Doctors only.
Also certainly now,as the way things are at present within the NHS in England, no way could a full service over 7 days be provided with full competence.

This thread calls the Junior Doctors inhumane, that is shocking, they are people who have saved many thousands even of lives in their time as Doctors.
What however would be more likely to be inhumane is to impose this contract, which is a very badly planned one, badly prepared one and universally seen through those who work in the English NHS as a really dangerous one, for patients.

[smudgie]

What next for the junior doctors.
They lost their case against Hunt in court, the five days strikes seem to be on hold now.
Perhaps a work to rule might be the way forward for them:shrug:

[the truth]

We will have to continue to disagree on this,

However how can you with the same number of Doctors,cut nearly 20 hours off their working week and then make a service to cover more days a week with no change to the other staff needed to provide on the spot care.

They are cutting the hours but they will be expecting the Junior Doctors to work the same as before at least and even more, to fully cover a 7 day service but actually for less pay.

At present, a Junior Doctor after a full on duty,would ,if they were needed to remain on duty for longer be paid unsocial rates from 7pm.
This contract moves that to start after 10pm.
You cannot possibly do the 7 day week with the present number of Junior Doctors reduced to 72 hours,that will be their set hours but they will all be expected to work a great deal more hours than that, they already have to, to provide the week in week out service.
So how can they on less hours with the same number of Doctors be able to provide more days and hours of service,it simply doesn't make sense.
That is what makes this dangerous.

IF they were putting in more Doctors and nursing staff and radiologists and anaesthetists, then 7 days would not be such a pipedream.
However, by not putting in the radiologists and anaesthetists and other auxiliary staffing too,that will mean still a lesser service at weekends.
With Junior Doctors on duty but unable to provide any change as to care, other than the emergency set up in place now.

Get the extra radiologists, anaesthetists and auxiliary staff in place and over the next year or so get more Junior Doctors in place too, then maybe at that point, this contract will be less contentious.
AS it stands, it is full of holes and dangers and that is why Junior Doctors, and as I stated before, Consultants and Nursing staff too are all against it in the main and certainly against it being imposed.

Also this is not about money the truth,it is about hours and care, the reduction of hours from 91 to 72 also comes with an increased salary to in part compensate that, however it is the other measures that are the bone of contention.

The contract would be a pretty good one if it had all the other services and people needed in place with the many extra Junior Doctors that would be needed too.

Insisting on doing far more, for less and with the same or even less people, is ridiculous,get all in place, then properly plan a full 7 day service,only then would there be a good chance of it working properly and in a fully balanced way too.
Rather than this plan which will leave the Junior Doctors in this instance having to do much more,more hours, be more tired and likely for less overall too.

My Cousins dedicated their lives to medicine and helping people ill, money was never an issue.
When they tell me this contract would wear them out more, have them working far more hours and therefore it would be dangerous for the Patients in their care, I will take their word over this govt any day of the week.
Along with all their Junior Doctor colleagues too.

They never wanted to go on strike, or end up leaving their homes in England and go elsewhere, they have been forced to by this govts arrogance,because they 'know' being on the front line of care, that they will be restricted more as to giving real quality care to patients.
If this contract is at this time imposed on the English NHS Junior Doctors only.
Also certainly now,as the way things are at present within the NHS in England, no way could a full service over 7 days be provided with full competence.

This thread calls the Junior Doctors inhumane, that is shocking, they are people who have saved many thousands even of lives in their time as Doctors.
What however would be more likely to be inhumane is to impose this contract, which is a very badly planned one, badly prepared one and universally seen through those who work in the English NHS as a really dangerous one, for patients.

Now that their inhumane actions have been in effect deemed illegal....If they seriously want to improve matters they should turn their ire on the GP doctors contract 2004 which allowed over 90% of GP's to opt out of ALL out of hours work, thus putting enormous pressure on hospitals instead. These junior doctors in hospitals are usually limited in what they can do and often simply refer you back to your gp anyway. That is a farce, instead of playing punch and judy politics with we hate the tories , this step would be far more practical, logical and beneficial...end goal to tear up the 2004 gp contract
In the meantime hunt needs to clarify exactly what he intends to do with the rest of the staff needed to operate a 7 day nhs...are they all to go on contineental shift patterns too? hunt hasnt won , no one has won, forget egos, but now the junior doctors are snookered, it puts pressure back on hunt really to clarify his next steps and how he intends to achieve the goal of a top class 7 day nhs