SNP's Nicola Sturgeon announces new independence referendum bill

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/holidays-sturgeon_3296455b.jpg


A consultation gets under way next week on plans for a second Scottish independence referendum, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed.

She told the party's Glasgow conference that an Independence Referendum Bill would be published next week.

It marks the first step to holding a second vote.

She said: "I am determined that Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question of independence and to do so before the UK leaves the EU - if that is necessary to protect our country's interests.

"So, I can confirm today that the Independence Referendum Bill will be published for consultation next week."

On 24 June, the day after the UK voted to leave the EU, Ms Sturgeon said a second independence referendum was "highly likely".

Those who voted in Scotland backed remaining in Europe by 62% to 38% while the UK as a whole backed leave, by a margin of 52% to 48%.

The first referendum, which took place on 18 September, 2014, resulted in 55% of voters saying "no" to Scottish independence.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

:clap2: Nicola leading the only credible opposition and setting the agenda again.

[James]

Are they going to have one every two years until they get result they want, then?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Are they going to have one every two years until they get result they want, then?

Dont tell Remain

[James]

I can see there being calls for another EU referendum if another Scottish Independence referendum goes ahead.

[Tom4784]

I can't blame them, the EU vote pretty much highlighted the fact that their input doesn't matter so why should they stay in a union in which they basically don't have a say in what happens?

[MTVN]

:clap2: Nicola leading the only credible opposition and setting the agenda again.

How can you reconcile this with telling everyone else to get over the EU referendum result and move on? The SNP want to hold a second referendum precisely because they don't like that EU result and wish to avoid it :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

How can you reconcile this with telling everyone else to get over the EU referendum result and move on? The SNP want to hold a second referendum precisely because they don't like that EU result and wish to avoid it :shrug:

Because she is doing both things. I did not say I support her 2nd referendum or do not support it. I do admire her political nowse and the fact she eclipses any current English politician by a country mile.

[jaxie]

Desperation and denial. The reason she is desperate is that without the hope the EU will prop up Scotland if it does leave the UK, there isn't much hope of leaving. The EU won't.

[James]

The irony is that if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014... we would have been out the EU.

[jaxie]

The irony is that if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014... we would have been out the EU.

And destitute cause oil prices crashed. Lucky the rest of the UK is there to buffer the storm.

[Cherie]

Because she is doing both things. I did not say I support her 2nd referendum or do not support it. I do admire her political nowse and the fact she eclipses any current English politician by a country mile.

No she doesn't, she hasn't accepted democracy, she is seizing on this as a way to further her own ambition and go down in history as the person who took Scotland out of the Union.

[jaxie]

No she doesn't, she hasn't accepted democracy, she is seizing on this as a way to further her own ambition and go down in history as the person who took Scotland out of the Union.

:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

No she doesn't, she hasn't accepted democracy, she is seizing on this as a way to further her own ambition and go down in history as the person who took Scotland out of the Union.

I dont think you are right, she is not some crazed demigod. She is trying to do the best for her country

[jaxie]

I dont think you are right, she is not some crazed demigod. She is trying to do the best for her country

And the best for her country is leaving the UK and becoming a tiny fleck of dust with no say in an undemocratic EU superstate? That's her goal.

[UserSince2005]

It would be quite amusing to watch the Scottish try and run a country.
Obviously they would still be begging Westminster for pocket money, which would annoy the **** out of me but oh well.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It would be quite amusing to watch the Scottish try and run a country.
Obviously they would still be begging Westminster for pocket money, which would annoy the **** out of me but oh well.

I love xenophobia


:umm2:

[Cherie]

I dont think you are right, she is not some crazed demigod. She is trying to do the best for her country


By ignoring the will of the majority?

[Crimson Dynamo]

By ignoring the will of the majority?

I think she will use this as a negotiation for more powers for the SP and in post brexit negotiations, she is not daft

[arista]

I can see there being calls for another EU referendum if another Scottish Independence referendum goes ahead.


No our Exit now has a Road Map
set in place.
It has fecked her UP.


England /Wales does not want another Referendum
we had ours.


And this is a Special Scottish Referendum
as Some of them want(Demand) to stay in the EU.


Feck The EU

[Greg!]

Good. Can't wait to leave the flop UK

[Greg!]

It would be quite amusing to watch the Scottish try and run a country.
Obviously they would still be begging Westminster for pocket money, which would annoy the **** out of me but oh well.

Babes thats a myth. If Scotland sponges off England then why are they so desperate for us to stay? :think:

[arista]

Good. Can't wait to leave the flop UK



You have Changed




Sign of The Times

[Niamh.]

You have Changed




Sign of The Times

That isn't Zee Arista, if that what you're thinking?

[Jessica.]

http://puu.sh/rHCpC/a2b1415115.png

[Johnnyuk123]

Let them go, just make sure they are not allowed back in when it all goes teets up!:hee:

[kirklancaster]

The irony is that if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014... we would have been out the EU.

:clap1::clap1::clap1: And what irony this really is.

[kirklancaster]

No she doesn't, she hasn't accepted democracy, she is seizing on this as a way to further her own ambition and go down in history as the person who took Scotland out of the Union.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

As if being half of Scotland's most famous comedy duo isn't enough fame for the krankie cow.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlDYukUTtkFFPf5zaxP664_dKi4r2kg EGP84gay-K50lu-Z4Dn

[Firewire]

This is the thing that annoys me about the whole Yes campaign. They cannot take no for an answer.

But in saying that, due to the results of Brexit and more bad decisions by the current Tory government, I'd probably vote yes this time around.

[jaxie]

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

As if being half of Scotland's most famous comedy duo isn't enough fame for the krankie cow.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlDYukUTtkFFPf5zaxP664_dKi4r2kg EGP84gay-K50lu-Z4Dn

The Krankie's were swingers. :hehe:

[arista]

That isn't Zee Arista, if that what you're thinking?




2 Gregs?

[Greg!]

2 Gregs?

yes

[Johnnyuk123]

Lets say that Scotland get another vote and decide to leave the UK. Will this angry dwarf then go ahead and push for another vote to reverse it or will she not mention it again now that the vote has finally gone her way?

[arista]

yes


That's Wrong

[kirklancaster]

The Krankie's were swingers. :hehe:

:laugh:

[reece(:]

It's only fair they're doing it since they're being forced out of the EU against the majority's will in Scotland.

[arista]

It's only fair they're doing it since they're being forced out of the EU against the majority's will in Scotland.


But will she Win It?

[bots]

i think she should go ahead and hold another vote, and when she again gets told to f off, she can find another excuse to do it again in 2 years time. Eventually, people will say enough is enough and boot them out of power.

What she has failed to mention is that Scotland would need to make a net contribution if it wanted to join the EU as an independent Scotland, i'm sure that will go down really well with the voters

[user104658]

Lets say that Scotland get another vote and decide to leave the UK. Will this angry dwarf then go ahead and push for another vote to reverse it or will she not mention it again now that the vote has finally gone her way?
The SNP have always been clear about their desire to leave the UK. The party were voted into power democratically with that being known. Therefore, the majority voted for a party who they knew would try for independence. That - along with the drastic change of circumstances in the UK since the first vote - is a very clear mandate for them to do everything in their power to pursue that goal.

[jaxie]

The SNP have always been clear about their desire to leave the UK. The party were voted into power democratically with that being known. Therefore, the majority voted for a party who they knew would try for independence. That - along with the drastic change of circumstances in the UK since the first vote - is a very clear mandate for them to do everything in their power to pursue that goal.

As someone from Scotland do you see the strangeness in the situation of seeming to want to swap the UK for the EU a supserstate with less democracy, more beaurocracy, where Scotland would be lost with virtually no say over its laws? It seems a bizarre choice to me.

[kirklancaster]

i think she should go ahead and hold another vote, and when she again gets told to f off, she can find another excuse to do it again in 2 years time. Eventually, people will say enough is enough and boot them out of power.

What she has failed to mention is that Scotland would need to make a net contribution if it wanted to join the EU as an independent Scotland, i'm sure that will go down really well with the voters

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

As someone from Scotland do you see the strangeness in the situation of seeming to want to swap the UK for the EU a supserstate with less democracy, more beaurocracy, where Scotland would be lost with virtually no say over its laws? It seems a bizarre choice to me.

or keep the English government?

Yes its a hideous choice for sure

[jaxie]

or keep the English government?

Yes its a hideous choice for sure

You have more self government as part of the UK than you would ever have with the EU. You have more self government than the English do. Where is the English Assembly?

[user104658]

As someone from Scotland do you see the strangeness in the situation of seeming to want to swap the UK for the EU a supserstate with less democracy, more beaurocracy, where Scotland would be lost with virtually no say over its laws? It seems a bizarre choice to me.
It's not a "swap", I personally don't believe that the UK (with or without Scotland being part of it) can or will survive (as we know it) outside of the EU anyway.

[jaxie]

It's not a "swap", I personally don't believe that the UK (with or without Scotland being part of it) can or will survive (as we know it) outside of the EU anyway.

I think we will thrive. We just need to get on with it.

But it seems to me a swap is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon is going after.

[MB.]

Let them go, just make sure they are not allowed back in when it all goes teets up!:hee:

I've never seen you sum Brexit up better

[user104658]

I think we will thrive. We just need to get on with it.

But it seems to me a swap is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon is going after.
Unless something is dues to change drastically with the way the EU works, then no, you can't equate EU membership to the control that Westminster governments have in Scotland currently.

[user104658]

Know what is hilarious though? That all of the "better together" campaigners last time around touted the fact that we would "lose our EU membership if we split" as a major reason for maintaining the Union.... ... ... And then the same people campaigned to give up our EU membership.

You couldn't make it up.

[jaxie]

Unless something is dues to change drastically with the way the EU works, then no, you can't equate EU membership to the control that Westminster governments have in Scotland currently.

I think that's a bit naive TS tbh. How would Scotland pay its welfare bill without the UK? Scotland has a huge fiscal deficit. (14.8 billion) That's the difference between what you have coming in and what your government the SNP spends. Would you really embrace Europe and suffer the severe austerity Greece are living under? That is if they'd touch Scotland with such a large deficit which is something like double the deficit of the whole rest of the UK.

I'll just say again that's the Scottish governments deficit spending not Westminsters

[Ammi]

..I wonder how another vote now would effect the people in Scotland in terms of possibly further dividing and being counter productive, no matter what the vote outcome...with the Scottish Independent vote, I recall listening to some stories from someone on another forum of how communities/even families were split in the force of their passion, some being shunned because of how they intended to vote....anyway as a general, I don't think that low morale etc and feeling deflated which many feel atm, is a time to make important decisions such as this../a time to vote on something like this which is the rub really...I think that was some of the thing with Brexit as well...the immigration crisis/extreme terror attacks etc and some votes made with a feeling of helplessness and loss of control/fear and feeling that Brexiting would get the control back...but all it's really done (for the moment..)..is added a divide into the mix and added ore negative feelings, which is never a good thing because a country has to be strong and united for such steps....I just don't think that 'reactionary voting' is good sound voting in the results it brings and especially something as important as this....not a decision that I would want to face in the upcoming anyway..I try not to even go clothes shopping when I'm feeling grumpy because I know that thing will just sit in my wardrobe with....what the heck was I thinking....

[Josy]

Lets say that Scotland get another vote and decide to leave the UK. Will this angry dwarf then go ahead and push for another vote to reverse it or will she not mention it again now that the vote has finally gone her way?

Well since she's the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, then no she wouldn't want a vote to reverse a 'yes' decision isn't that pretty obvious.

[Josy]

..I wonder how another vote now would effect the people in Scotland in terms of possibly further dividing and being counter productive, no matter what the vote outcome...with the Scottish Independent vote, I recall listening to some stories from someone on another forum of how communities/even families were split in the force of their passion, some being shunned because of how they intended to vote....anyway as a general, I don't think that low morale etc and feeling deflated which many feel atm, is a time to make important decisions such as this../a time to vote on something like this which is the rub really...I think that was some of the thing with Brexit as well...the immigration crisis/extreme terror attacks etc and some votes made with a feeling of helplessness and loss of control/fear and feeling that Brexiting would get the control back...but all it's really done (for the moment..)..is added a divide into the mix and added ore negative feelings, which is never a good thing because a country has to be strong and united for such steps....I just don't think that 'reactionary voting' is good sound voting in the results it brings and especially something as important as this....not a decision that I would want to face in the upcoming anyway..I try not to even go clothes shopping when I'm feeling grumpy because I know that thing will just sit in my wardrobe with....what the heck was I thinking....

It was pretty bad last time round Ammi, so will probably be the same if not worse, laughable really them harping on about wanting the best for Scotland at the same time dividing the country.

[Ammi]

It was pretty bad last time round Ammi, so will probably be the same if not worse, laughable really them harping on about wanting the best for Scotland at the same time dividing the country.

..yeah that's what I was thinking, I can't see anything but negatives with this../an adding to the negative feelings atm...(which I do understand those feelings of helplessness in a vote outcome that many feel so against..)...if the outcome was Independence, then how does the divide go for that to happen and be possible anyway..?...just the vote itself last time seemed to cause such community and neighbour divides and also aggressive acts..this lady even had members of her own family turn against her because of her stance not being the same as hers....

[Kizzy]

I love xenophobia


:umm2:

We noticed :hee:

[James]

It annoys me that the SNP have been going on so much about xenophobia and being internationalist, when the whole purpose of their party is to cause a division and put up barriers.

I think the pro-EU internationalist angle is just a politically convenient tactic for them to use at the moment.

[Crimson Dynamo]

DOnt forget this is a consultation bill. Scottish people voted in the SNP by quite a bit and i think they know what they are about so dont just focus on Nicola - she is the democratically elected leader of a voting majority of Scottish people.

[Niamh.]

We noticed :hee:

:hehe:

[Northern Monkey]

I don't see the problem.If Scotland want to go it alone then cool.I think it'd be better to have a vote to see if the Scottish people actually want another referendum though.It's a democratic country after all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't see the problem.If Scotland want to go it alone then cool.I think it'd be better to have a vote to see if the Scottish people actually want another referendum though.It's a democratic country after all.

Do you not think electing (again) and SNP government rather makes that null?

[Niamh.]

LT would you want out of the UK?

[Crimson Dynamo]

LT would you want out of the UK?

Yes, having a country like England which is 10x bigger than the next in the union and having the government in London is not ideal and rest assured if Scotland was England and England was Scotland, English folks would be feeling the same

[Niamh.]

Yes, having a country like England which is 10x bigger than the next in the union and having the government in London is not ideal and rest assured if Scotland was England and England was Scotland, English folks would be feeling the same

Yeah I can imagine especially listening to alot of the pro brexit comments actually, it was a similar thing, not wanting to be told what to do by Europe

[Northern Monkey]

Do you not think electing (again) and SNP government rather makes that null?

You don't know all the reasons that people voted the SNP in though.Yes they are a nationalist party but the last Scottish referendum told us that Scotland wanted to stay in the UK.It seems that nationalism is'nt the sole reason the SNP are doing so well but maybe disillusionment with the Westminster old boys.There may not be appetite in Scotland as a whole to go through all the divides that a referendum creates.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You don't know all the reasons that people voted the SNP in though.Yes they are a nationalist party but the last Scottish referendum told us that Scotland wanted to stay in the UK.It seems that nationalism is'nt the sole reason the SNP are doing so well but maybe disillusionment with the Westminster old boys.There may not be appetite in Scotland as a whole to go through all the divides that a referendum creates.

Yes it helps to have politicians who people respect up here and who dont tell lies and who dont have their noses in the trough

[Greg!]

It annoys me that the SNP have been going on so much about xenophobia and being internationalist, when the whole purpose of their party is to cause a division and put up barriers.

I think the pro-EU internationalist angle is just a politically convenient tactic for them to use at the moment.

I don't see the SNP threatening to deport EU citizens who have made a life for themselves in the UK like the the Tories are. Wanting independence for your country isn't xenophobia at all.

[Johnnyuk123]

Lets keep voting until we get the result i want. That's Scotland's idea of democracy. :joker::joker::joker:

[kirklancaster]

Yes it helps to have politicians who people respect up here and who dont tell lies and who dont have their noses in the trough

Scotland and you Scots are in the same position we 'poor' Northerners have been in for centuries.

London is a Foreign Country to us.

[jaxie]

Yeah I can imagine especially listening to alot of the pro brexit comments actually, it was a similar thing, not wanting to be told what to do by Europe

They do have their own government. :shrug:

[Niamh.]

They do have their own government. :shrug:

Does who have their own government?

[Niamh.]

Sorry I misread your post Jaxie. You mean Scotland have their own government? that makes it even more similar to Britain and Europe, doesn't it? Britain have their own government but felt that the EU were dictating to them too much

[Crimson Dynamo]

Sorry I misread your post Jaxie. You mean Scotland have their own government? that makes it even more similar to Britain and Europe, doesn't it? Britain have their own government but felt that the EU were dictating to them too much

and you can bet your last euro that if the tables were turned and Scotland was where England is the English would be after independence!

[jaxie]

Does who have their own government?

Scotland. Their government has control over its own spending. Scotland has free prescriptions, England, Wales and NI don't. Scotland have free University education. Due to the Barnett formula more is spent on each Scottish person than any country in the union. Scotland is hardly an oppressed entity under the jackboots of Westminster.

From a personal stand point for my whole life we've been family and I'd hate see hundreds of years of family history end but if Scotland chose to go I doubt it would in reality make a lot of difference to me in England. I do think though that Scotland would struggle. All the welfare, free prescriptions, free university education, they already overspend, how would they continue as they are? If they lost all that, they would not be happy with the dear old SNP.

[Niamh.]

Scotland. Their government has control over its own spending. Scotland has free prescriptions, England, Wales and NI don't. Scotland have free University education. Due to the Barnett formula more is spent on each Scottish person than any country in the union. Scotland is hardly an oppressed entity under the jackboots of Westminster.

From a personal stand point for my whole life we've been family and I'd hate see hundreds of years of family history end but if Scotland chose to go I doubt it would in reality make a lot of difference to me in England. I do think though that Scotland would struggle. All the welfare, free prescriptions, free university education, they already overspend, how would they continue as they are? If they lost all that, they would not be happy with the dear old SNP.

Yeah, I misread your post, I answered it above. I won't get into a debate about Scottish politics because I really don't know enough about it. I was just saying that the two situations (Scottish Independence/Brexit) seemed kind of similar to me

[user104658]

Scotland. Their government has control over its own spending. Scotland has free prescriptions, England, Wales and NI don't. Scotland have free University education. Due to the Barnett formula more is spent on each Scottish person than any country in the union. Scotland is hardly an oppressed entity under the jackboots of Westminster.

From a personal stand point for my whole life we've been family and I'd hate see hundreds of years of family history end but if Scotland chose to go I doubt it would in reality make a lot of difference to me in England. I do think though that Scotland would struggle. All the welfare, free prescriptions, free university education, they already overspend, how would they continue as they are? If they lost all that, they would not be happy with the dear old SNP.
You do realise that England also still has a massive budget deficit... Right?

[Josy]

DOnt forget this is a consultation bill. Scottish people voted in the SNP by quite a bit and i think they know what they are about so dont just focus on Nicola - she is the democratically elected leader of a voting majority of Scottish people.
The voting majority of Scotland also wanted to remain part of the UK but that gets ignored so the snp can continue with thier one and only agenda.

[jaxie]

Yeah, I misread your post, I answered it above. I won't get into a debate about Scottish politics because I really don't know enough about it. I was just saying that the two situations (Scottish Independence/Brexit) seemed kind of similar to me

I view it differently. If Scotland had voted for independence they wouldn't have been forced to run the same referendum over and over until we got the decision we wanted. The way Ireland was forced over the Lisbon treaty. Imo shamefully undemocratic. We'd never take their pensions away in austerity. The way the EU has treated Greece chills my bones.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The voting majority of Scotland also wanted to remain part of the UK but that gets ignored so the snp can continue with thier one and only agenda.

No

Its in the SNP manifesto that if there was a material change in circumstances they could put up another ref bill

and then we got brexit..

[jaxie]

You do realise that England also still has a massive budget deficit... Right?

Of course, as I mentioned in my post its about half as much as Scotlands but actually I apologise I was wrong, Scotland's deficit is 3 times more the rest of the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/24/ifs-scotland-debts-three-times-greater-uk

[Josy]

No

Its in the SNP manifesto that if there was a material change in circumstances they could put up another ref bill

and then we got brexit..
Lol, there was always going to be more referendums until they get what they want...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lol, there was always going to be more referendums until they get what they want...

No, it was quite specifically set out in the manifesto.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/second-scottish-independence-bid-wasnt-pre-planned-insists-snps-stephen-gethins-1610135362


This explains it here

[Josy]

No, it was quite specifically set out in the manifesto.
Yes set out that if circumstances changed etc etc but they were already talking about running another referendum when Nicola took over as if that was a big enough change, Brexit just gave them another excuse.

It's the SNP it's thier sole agenda......they will keep going until they get what they want continuously ignoring what the majority of Scotland actually wanted.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes set out that if circumstances changed etc etc but they were already talking about running another referendum when Nicola took over as if that was a big enough change, Brexit just gave them another excuse.

It's the SNP it's thier sole agenda......they will keep going until they get what they want continuously ignoring what the majority of Scotland actually wanted.

A party is elected on their manifesto and the electorate expect the promises i that manifesto to be lived up to

ergo..

[Josy]

A party is elected on their manifesto and the electorate expect the promises i that manifesto to be lived up to

ergo..
Nah we both know that's not what happened LT.

[jaxie]

Yes set out that if circumstances changed etc etc but they were already talking about running another referendum when Nicola took over as if that was a big enough change, Brexit just gave them another excuse.

It's the SNP it's thier sole agenda......they will keep going until they get what they want continuously ignoring what the majority of Scotland actually wanted.

I think you are right Josy and I think they are being incredibly reckless with Scotland's future, particularly now with their huge deficit and tanked oil prices. I think SNP supporters are blinkered to what they stand to lose by thinking the SNP are their best mates and won't do them wrong. They are politicians with an agenda.

[Crimson Dynamo]

As i have said, this is a negotiation tactic first and foremost with brexit in mind

[jaxie]

As i have said, this is a negotiation tactic first and foremost with brexit in mind

Blackmail in politics is pretty unpleasant isn't it?

[user104658]

Yes set out that if circumstances changed etc etc but they were already talking about running another referendum when Nicola took over as if that was a big enough change, Brexit just gave them another excuse.

It's the SNP it's thier sole agenda......they will keep going until they get what they want continuously ignoring what the majority of Scotland actually wanted.
If the majority of people didn't want the SNP to be in Holyrood then the SNP wouldn't be in Holyrood. The same Scottish people voted them in... You can't have it both ways. If people were so strongly against Scottish independence then an independence-focussed party would have had no chance?

[Greg!]

Scotland. Their government has control over its own spending. Scotland has free prescriptions, England, Wales and NI don't. Scotland have free University education. Due to the Barnett formula more is spent on each Scottish person than any country in the union. Scotland is hardly an oppressed entity under the jackboots of Westminster.
.

Hmm sounds like jealousy to me. If England wants free prescriptions, no tuition fees, higher spending etc then all they need to do is vote for a party with those policies :shrug:

[Jack_]

Hmm sounds like jealousy to me. If England wants free prescriptions, no tuition fees, higher spending etc then all they need to do is vote for a party with those policies :shrug:

Haha don't be silly, we want cuts to those dirty benefit scroungers and job thieving immigrants, the decimation of the NHS, the collapse of the education system so it can return to Great Old Days of the 60s, the rescinding of workers rights, and the tacit allowance of those avoiding taxes to continue! En-ger-land! Brexit! Grrr! :cheer2:

[jaxie]

Hmm sounds like jealousy to me. If England wants free prescriptions, no tuition fees, higher spending etc then all they need to do is vote for a party with those policies :shrug:

Absolutely, why wouldn't those of us with a poorer deal envy those who have it good. The problem is you don't recognise how good you have it. It won't last leaving the UK.

[jaxie]

Haha don't be silly, we want cuts to those dirty benefit scroungers and job thieving immigrants, the decimation of the NHS, the collapse of the education system so it can return to Great Old Days of the 60s, the rescinding of workers rights, and the tacit allowance of those avoiding taxes to continue! Eng-er-land! Brexit! Grrr! :cheer2:

I wonder if you even know anything about the Europe you are clamouring for. You seem to have a problem with the dirty brexit voters. :nono: That kind of puts what you are saying on a par with the values of the bigoted attitudes you think you are verbally berating.

[bots]

The SNP are in power, democratically elected. They have overwhelming support in Scotland. People know very clearly what the SNP want, there is no doubt that their prime objective is independence. If the Scottish people felt that being part of the union was a done deal, never to be raised again, they wouldnt have followed that vote up by supporting the SNP again. If the SNP want to request a referendum every 6 months, they can do it, and the people will decide soon enough if they want the question to be repeated again and again or not.

[James]

I don't see the SNP threatening to deport EU citizens who have made a life for themselves in the UK like the the Tories are. Wanting independence for your country isn't xenophobia at all.

They won't say it out loud because they are too clever as politicians.

But if Scotland was independent there would be equivalent situations where people from the rest of the UK couldn't be educated here, work here or trade here as freely as before etc.

[jaxie]

The SNP are in power, democratically elected. They have overwhelming support in Scotland. People know very clearly what the SNP want, there is no doubt that their prime objective is independence. If the Scottish people felt that being part of the union was a done deal, never to be raised again, they wouldnt have followed that vote up by supporting the SNP again. If the SNP want to request a referendum every 6 months, they can do it, and the people will decide soon enough if they want the question to be repeated again and again or not.

As I said before the Scottish government give the people a lot in regard to welfare and benefits so people are lulled into a feeling that these are the good guys, looking out for them. Even though they are over spending on a massive scale to do it. The story would likely be very different without the rest of the UK as a safety blanket. Even with the UK as a back up I do wonder how long they can keep overspending on that scale before they have to make changes/cuts. Of course then they can conveniently blame the rest of the UK for the squeeze. Win-win.

[bots]

As I said before the Scottish government give the people a lot in regard to welfare and benefits so people are lulled into a feeling that these are the good guys, looking out for them. Even though they are over spending on a massive scale to do it. The story would likely be very different without the rest of the UK as a safety blanket. Even with the UK as a back up I do wonder how long they can keep overspending on that scale before they have to make changes/cuts. Of course then they can conveniently blame the rest of the UK for the squeeze. Win-win.

well, they have a budget, that has more and more autonomy, they are free to prioritise its use more and more freely. If they go in to debt, then its for them to get themselves out of debt like any other country. Plenty country's have attempted to spend their way out of austerity, and Scotland has the autonomy to do that if it wishes. That's their political decision.

[Greg!]

They won't say it out loud because they are too clever as politicians.

But if Scotland was independent there would be equivalent situations where people from the rest of the UK couldn't be educated here, work here or trade here as freely as before etc.

According to who?

[kirklancaster]

Hmm sounds like jealousy to me. If England wants free prescriptions, no tuition fees, higher spending etc then all they need to do is vote for a party with those policies :shrug:

And just how long do you expect all these wonderful benefits to continue for the Scots, once Scotland gains independence from the rest of the UK, and is confronted by the twin realities of no more UK billions and billions to pay to the EU?

[Johnnyuk123]

Scotland want independence yet will end up dependent on the corrupt EU for handouts if in fact they do achieve that goal and... only IF the corrupt EU allows them back in. :shrug: :joker::joker::joker:

[user104658]

And just how long do you expect all these wonderful benefits to continue for the Scots, once Scotland gains independence from the rest of the UK, and is confronted by the twin realities of no more UK billions and billions to pay to the EU?
So independence for the UK from the larger EU = hope, positivity and freedom while independence from Scotland from the larger UK = no chance / harsh realities? Hmmm. Surely anyone who truly believes in Brexit should champion Scottish independence (independence from the UK but also not remaining in the EU / re-entering).

[LaLaLand]

She does my head in.

[Johnnyuk123]

That's one slippery old fish.

http://po4ep.s3.amazonaws.com/1241/l/31746023.jpg

[kirklancaster]

So independence for the UK from the larger EU = hope, positivity and freedom while independence from Scotland from the larger UK = no chance / harsh realities? Hmmm. Surely anyone who truly believes in Brexit should champion Scottish independence (independence from the UK but also not remaining in the EU / re-entering).

Uh??? :shrug: How did you educe that from my response to Greg's post?

Oh... I know... by taking my response out of context.

Scotland leaving the UK is TOTALLY different from the UK leaving the EU.

The UK has suffered a multi billion pound annual deficit with the EU for over 40 years.

Everything else aside, the UK SAVES that deficit ON TOP of it's annual 'Joining Fee' of billions too.

Scotland has enjoyed BILLIONS of pounds by way of subsidies from the UK for decades.

Everything else aside, Scotland will LOSE those billions if they become independent.

On top of which, they will have to start paying BILLIONS per annum to the EU.

This 'Double Whammy', is what prompted my question to Greg, about how long he expects the unique benefits which Scotland enjoys to continue for once the realities of all this begins to take effect.

[Johnnyuk123]

http://wisermonkeys.uk/images/snp-union-uk-eu.jpg

[jaxie]

So independence for the UK from the larger EU = hope, positivity and freedom while independence from Scotland from the larger UK = no chance / harsh realities? Hmmm. Surely anyone who truly believes in Brexit should champion Scottish independence (independence from the UK but also not remaining in the EU / re-entering).

Scotland is of course fully entitled to do what it wants.

In my opinion, it seems serious hypocrasy to want to leave the UK while desperately adhering to the EU. It simply does not make sense. :shrug:

Scotland is a tiny country who already has a large deficit, and without being able to count on oil revenue, don't seem to have a viable way of financially sustaining themselves apart from that. Unless you know a secret we don't? I care about what happens to Scotland, you're family of course I do. Does Tusk think you are family? Nah. Look at Greece, Italy, Spain and the fiscal fist forced upon them. Look at how Ireland were treated over the Lisbon treaty.

I can tell you things I don't like about the EU, what don't you like about the union? Why is the EU a better prospect for Scotland? I'd like to understand the issues but nothing specific seems to be given.

[Kizzy]

I think it's a very progressive move, this country has gone to the dogs, not sure why the warnings about evil clowns.... the worst are in govt atm :/

[Josy]

If the majority of people didn't want the SNP to be in Holyrood then the SNP wouldn't be in Holyrood. The same Scottish people voted them in... You can't have it both ways. If people were so strongly against Scottish independence then an independence-focussed party would have had no chance?

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.

[Ammi]

...maybe for Scotland..(some Scottish people..)...the reasons for wanting their independence is much more historic reasons, similar to the RoI and the quest of NI as well...which isn't really something that could be applied in the same way to the EU and Brexit because that doesn't have the same historic connotations, it's something that was willingly joined and then something that was voted on leaving...I personally have no faith in that independence anyway...we'll make our own decisions..(well our politicians and financial people will...and we're dependant on those decisions being right and good for the country..)...so we won't be paying sums to the EU, but quite possibly paying similar amounts to secure alternative trade deals.../just shifting who we'r paying it all to and no benefit to the country's finances...except we have alienated ourselves somewhat from our neighbours/which never seems like a positive move...


..anyways one General Election and one EU referendum vote has been exhausting enough so I feel for the Scottish people to have had to go through an independence vote as well and then have to think about a second one possibility.../harrowing....

[Cherie]

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.

Agree with this, Labour weren't a credible choice in the last election so it wasn't difficult to see the SNP would do well, Nicola was voted in more for her anti austerity measures than for her stance on independence particularly as the referendum was literally just over

[kirklancaster]

Agree with this, Labour weren't a credible choice in the last election so it wasn't difficult to see the SNP would do well, Nicola was voted in more for her anti austerity measures than for her stance on independence particularly as the referendum was literally just over

I agree with this, and with Josy.

[bots]

Offering the people a referendum on independence doesn't mean they will vote for it. I may have misread things, but i wouldn't say the Scottish people consider membership of the EU more important than union with the UK which seems to be the SNP's angle at the moment.

The Scottish people may well have voted in the majority in each region to remain in the EU, but those same people could equally be pro union with the UK, in fact, i would say it was more than likely :laugh:

[user104658]

SNP only got voted in because people had lost all faith in the tories and labour and felt they had no other choice the majority never voted them in with any connections at all to another indy ref.
So the Scottish people voted in the SNP because they have lost faith in Labour and (never had any faith in) the Tories and do not want to be ruled by them. Who happen to be the only two parties who will EVER realistically hold any power in Westminster. It doesn't make sense.

Nor does the idea that Scotland "has it good" in the UK because the Scottish government has been able to scrape together a few extra socialist policies, when the wider UK still has crippling inequality and cruelty at the core of its social existence. Westminster policies that have utterly DESTROYED small Scottish towns over the last 50 years. Scotland has been used as a guinea pig and dumping ground throughout the entire history of the Union. But we've had a few years of "free prescriptions and tuition fees" so it's all great? Come on.

[Alf]

I've just watched her speech, I couldn't get this New kids on the block song out of my head.


xtSbedMeF6s



If it's not the women it's the children.

[T*]

byesies

[T*]

jk please dont haunt me ancestors

[jaxie]

So the Scottish people voted in the SNP because they have lost faith in Labour and (never had any faith in) the Tories and do not want to be ruled by them. Who happen to be the only two parties who will EVER realistically hold any power in Westminster. It doesn't make sense.

Nor does the idea that Scotland "has it good" in the UK because the Scottish government has been able to scrape together a few extra socialist policies, when the wider UK still has crippling inequality and cruelty at the core of its social existence. Westminster policies that have utterly DESTROYED small Scottish towns over the last 50 years. Scotland has been used as a guinea pig and dumping ground throughout the entire history of the Union. But we've had a few years of "free prescriptions and tuition fees" so it's all great? Come on.

The EU common fisheries policy DESTROYED fishing communities in Scotland and Cornwall, Wales and other areas, and took away livelihoods. there are communities who have never recovered from the common fisheries policy, even today, and yet Scotland wants in bed with the EU? As others have suggested does it really boil down to historic hatred of England?

[user104658]

The EU common fisheries policy DESTROYED fishing communities in Scotland and Cornwall, Wales and other areas, and took away livelihoods. there are communities who have never recovered from the common fisheries policy, even today, and yet Scotland wants in bed with the EU? As others have suggested does it really boil down to historic hatred of England?
There have been positives and negatives there; you could also point out the horrendous condition of the beaches and sea around Scotland (and the whole UK) before EU pollution regulations prompted them to be massively cleaned up.

Regardless: EU membership has very little to do with whether or not I think Scotland would be better off out from under Westminster. Westminster priority will always - ALWAYS - lie with London and the South of England. Scotland cannot and will not ever prosper under a London based government. It has been trashed by them, in countless ways, for centuries. Given the small population and level of resources, it would potentially have been one of the wealthiest small nations in the world, had all of those resources not already been siphoned south.

EU membership is another question. My personal instinct is that Scotland would be better off with an arrangement like Denmark, and really has a lot in common with the Scandinavian countries in general. Countries with similar population levels that have thrived with or alongside the EU.

[Johnnyuk123]

Didn't Sturgeon recently try to meet up with EU leaders and they simply ignored her? It's not looking good is it. :joker::joker::joker:

[jaxie]

There have been positives and negatives there; you could also point out the horrendous condition of the beaches and sea around Scotland (and the whole UK) before EU pollution regulations prompted them to be massively cleaned up.

Regardless: EU membership has very little to do with whether or not I think Scotland would be better off out from under Westminster. Westminster priority will always - ALWAYS - lie with London and the South of England. Scotland cannot and will not ever prosper under a London based government. It has been trashed by them, in countless ways, for centuries. Given the small population and level of resources, it would potentially have been one of the wealthiest small nations in the world, had all of those resources not already been siphoned south.

EU membership is another question. My personal instinct is that Scotland would be better off with an arrangement like Denmark, and really has a lot in common with the Scandinavian countries in general. Countries with similar population levels that have thrived with or alongside the EU.

EU over fishing in our waters made cod endangered. Not exactly environmentally good. :shrug: We can never know if we would have adopted our own environmental clean up without the EU. Personally I doubt we would have kicked up our heels over it without them.

Doesnt having your own government assembly mean you aren't controlled directly from Westminster on many matters?

[user104658]

Didn't Sturgeon recently try to meet up with EU leaders and they simply ignored her? It's not looking good is it. :joker::joker::joker:
She tried to arrange some meetings, and had some meetings, in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote (within days / weeks). Some of the high profile figures turned her down on the grounds that it was "not the time" (in the chaos of the result) which was probably a fair assessment. It doesn't really have any bearing on n current or future events, chuckles.

[Johnnyuk123]

Scotland needs the UK. We don't need Scotland. IMO of course.

[erinp5]

The 5p bags will soon be Scottish currency !

[user104658]

Scotland needs the UK. We don't need Scotland. IMO of course.
London and the South (London 'burbs) doesn't need or want any of the rest of the UK. Should just be a city-state and have done with it.

[erinp5]

The SNP don't believe in a democratic vote
The referendum delivered a NO vote but the SNP ignore it .
The UK deliver an exit vote , the SNP ignore it .
They take part and influence the outcome of votes in the UK , but if the outcome is not of their choice...they ignore it ...simples.

[Johnnyuk123]

If Scotland wants independence so much so then they should go asap because if they have another vote and that fails they will then have another vote too infinity until they get the result they want. So save everyone here the bother of all this bollocks and just go. Then the rest of us can then make a law making sure that even with cap in hand Scotland are never allowed back into the UK.

[erinp5]

If Scotland wants independence so much so then they should go asap because if they have another vote and that fails they will then have another vote too infinity until they get the result they want. So save everyone here the bother of all this bollocks and just go. Then the rest of us can then make a law making sure that even with cap in hand Scotland are never allowed back into the UK.

I think you will find that Scotland said NO and want to remain in the UK , the people of Scotland answered the SNP question... the SNP can't accept the democratic vote .


http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/893000/620x/Nicola-Jim-463550.jpg

[Johnnyuk123]

The SNP don't believe in a democratic vote
The referendum delivered a NO vote but the SNP ignore it .
The UK deliver an exit vote , the SNP ignore it .
They take part and influence the outcome of votes in the UK , but if the outcome is not of their choice...they ignore it ...simples.

They are so angry with England and why is anyone's guess? Are we not eating enough deep fried mars bars? It's only a matter of time before they turn on the Welsh too.

[James]

If Britain and Scotland leaving the EU is bad for the economy, why leave the UK? Surely that would be worse.

[erinp5]

If Britain and Scotland leaving the EU is bad for the economy, why leave the UK? Surely that would be worse.

Britain has voted to leave the EU , the last time I checked Scotland was part of the UK so we are out of Europe. Sturgeon would have had us out of Europe two years ago had her party won the referendum on Sept 18th 2014 .

[erinp5]

They are so angry with England and why is anyone's guess? Are we not eating enough deep fried mars bars? It's only a matter of time before they turn on the Welsh too.

Really could you be more stereotypical .

[bots]

Britain has voted to leave the EU , the last time I checked Scotland was part of the UK so we are out of Europe. Sturgeon would have had us out of Europe two years ago had her party won the referendum on Sept 18th 2014 .

thats why i think the majority if not all those in Scotland who voted to remain in the EU would also wish to remain within the UK, so how Nicola thinks this gives her a mandate for an independence vote is beyond me :laugh:

[Johnnyuk123]

Really could you be more stereotypical .

I've heard enough stereo typical bollocks from the Scottish folk over the years about the English people so yes i think i am entitled to respond accordingly to their bullshyte.

[bots]

I've heard enough stereo typical bollocks from the Scottish folk over the years about the English people so yes i think i am entitled to respond accordingly to their bullshyte.

not a very nice way to talk about us Scottish folk

[Johnnyuk123]

not a very nice way to talk about us Scottish folk

I am not talking about the normal Scottish folk, only the haters of English folk.

[Johnnyuk123]

Whatever their problem is they need to get over it.

[bots]

Whatever their problem is they need to get over it.

you don't perhaps think that some may have an attitude in reaction to those with views similar to ones you have expressed?

[Johnnyuk123]

you don't perhaps think that some may have an attitude in reaction to those with views similar to ones you have expressed?

I could say the sky is blue and Nicola Sturgeon would say NO it's green. That is how out of touch with reality she is. Keep having a vote until she approves? That's Scottish democracy for yah.:joker:

[Johnnyuk123]

you don't perhaps think that some may have an attitude in reaction to those with views similar to ones you have expressed?

Q: Do you believe that Nicola Sturgeon is pro democracy? Yes or NO.

[bots]

I could say the sky is blue and Nicola Sturgeon would say NO it's green. That is how out of touch with reality she is. Keep having a vote until she approves? That's Scottish democracy for yah.:joker:

She is the most popular leader in the country by a long margin and she has been for a while, so she isn't as out of touch as any of the others :shrug:

[Johnnyuk123]

The UK voted to LEAVE the EU. It was NOT a Scottish referendum. It was a UK referendum. So even if Scotland had voted 100% to stay in the EU the rest of the UK voted out. Accept the will of the UK and move on.

[Johnnyuk123]

She is the most popular leader in the country by a long margin and she has been for a while, so she isn't as out of touch as any of the others :shrug:

Popular in Scotland yes. The rest of the UK just change channels when she comes on the TV.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't think you can tar all or even the majority of Scots with the same brush as Nicola Sturgeon.As said earlier,The Scottish ref told us that most Scots aren't nationalists like her.They just wanted a change from the old Westminster politicians.

[Greg!]

If Britain and Scotland leaving the EU is bad for the economy, why leave the UK? Surely that would be worse

Um the whole point is that Scotland would stay in the EU if it was independent

[Johnnyuk123]

I don't think you can tar all or even the majority of Scots with the same brush as Nicola Sturgeon.As said earlier,The Scottish ref told us that most Scots aren't nationalists like her.They just wanted a change from the old Westminster politicians.

Not all Scottish people think like her at all. I agree. But this evil dwarf is going to keep forcing people to vote in Scotland until she gets the result SHE wants. And that is sick and anti democracy.

[user104658]

I am not talking about the normal Scottish folk, only the haters of English folk.
Yawn. I am pro-independence, my wife is English, and she is also pro-independence. You're full of **** as always.

[James]

Um the whole point is that Scotland would stay in the EU if it was independent

It's more important for Scotland to stay in the UK than the EU because Scotland sells much more to the rest of the UK than it does to the EU.


Exports to rest of UK are worth £48.5 billion compared with £11.6 billion to EU while 250,000 jobs are linked to the single market compared with one million linked to the UK market, he said.

Mr Brown added that total of 1,000 companies from Europe are based in Scotland, compared with 3,000 from rest of UK, and pointed out the leaving the UK for the EU could mean changing currencies.

While 250,000 Scottish jobs are linked to the EU single market, he said that at least a million are connect to trade with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/gordon-brown-tells-scots-uks-single-market-worth-far-more-than-e/

Also countries can't just join the European Union on a whim. There's a number of criteria that have to be met. As I understand it Scotland doesn't meet those criteria currently, especially the deficit-to-GDP ratio being way to high.

[erinp5]

Um the whole point is that Scotland would stay in the EU if it was independent

If Scotland had voted yes to leave the UK in Sept 2014 we would have been out of Europe and we would then have had to apply to the EU for membership.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.html

[Cherie]

If Scotland had voted yes to leave the UK in Sept 2014 we would have been out of Europe and we would then have had to apply to the EU for membership.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.html

Incredible that those who were pro independence in 2014 were happy to leave the EU but in 2016 are pro independence because they are leaving EU :joker:

[kirklancaster]

Incredible that those who were pro independence in 2014 were happy to leave the EU but in 2016 are pro independence because they are leaving EU :joker:

:nono: Now don't be using things like logic and commonsense on here Cherie. :laugh:

[Maru]

Hmmm it looks like leading revolutions to get out of oppressive overarching things is very trendy these days. Too bad Texas' ability to secede is actually a myth... I love to keep with the latest trends

No really, Brexit/Scotexit has actually brought that back...

Can Texas Legally Secede From the United States?
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/06/24/can-texas-legally-secede-united-states/

Sorry, Texas: Unlike Scotland, You Can’t Secede
http://www.vocativ.com/usa/us-politics/texas-secession/

[Johnnyuk123]

Incredible that those who were pro independence in 2014 were happy to leave the EU but in 2016 are pro independence because they are leaving EU :joker:

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Kizzy]

What is the alternative to an independent Scotland? stay shackled to this heckhole?...Name one thing that still makes you proud to be from Britain, I just can't think of one.
I want to, it's not a nice feeling to feel so detached and despondent when imagining the future here. Especially as you know it could be so much better, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon thinks the govt has our best interests at heart and I agree.

[Ammi]

Whatever their problem is they need to get over it.

..isn't that the thing though Johnny...people don't just 'get over' things that they feel strongly about...if there is a 'problem' with the thoughts of some Scottish people at this time, then 'whatever their problem' doesn't apply but more discussing what that 'problem' is because it's only going to stay there as a problem and as a feeling of negative...with the vote of Brexit, the UK had a problem with the EU so they voted according to that problem and that vote meant a separation...it may be that Scotland will have another vote and it may mean another separation...?....it's always or often been an analogy of a marriage, hasn't it../a union...and no 'problem' would ever be solved or be worked on if a partner just dismissed it with ...get over yourself...if that's representative of an independent country who makes their own choices and has their own control etc, it feels like a pretty grim way to me....

[jaxie]

..isn't that the thing though Johnny...people don't just 'get over' things that they feel strongly about...if there is a 'problem' with the thoughts of some Scottish people at this time, then 'whatever their problem' doesn't apply but more discussing what that 'problem' is because it's only going to stay there as a problem and as a feeling of negative...with the vote of Brexit, the UK had a problem with the EU so they voted according to that problem and that vote meant a separation...it may be that Scotland will have another vote and it may mean another separation...?....it's always or often been an analogy of a marriage, hasn't it../a union...and no 'problem' would ever be solved or be worked on if a partner just dismissed it with ...get over yourself...if that's representative of an independent country who makes their own choices and has their own control etc, it feels like a pretty grim way to me....

Hey Ammi :wavey: the problem that I find with the 'problem' Scots seem to have with the union is that I never seem to get a straight answer when I ask what is wrong with the union at this time so it makes you feel that the problem is more of a moaning sour grapes, hate the history thing than a genuine reasoning that Scotland would be better off because of this or that.

It just doesn't make sense to me when you look at the facts, 48% of Scotland's trade income from business with the UK compared to something like 12% with Europe. Scotland has a high level of self governance and this will only grow over time so it has a fair amount of freedom and autonomy within the UK. It has more of voice than we had within the EU.

Why would the EU want to keep Scotland? It doesn't really have the economy to go it alone without oil revenue at good prices. So would need a fair amount of propping up by the EU. It has a large spending deficit, 3 times the whole UK, and this is something the EU would not want to have bail out.

[jaxie]

What is the alternative to an independent Scotland? stay shackled to this heckhole?...Name one thing that still makes you proud to be from Britain, I just can't think of one.
I want to, it's not a nice feeling to feel so detached and despondent when imagining the future here. Especially as you know it could be so much better, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon thinks the govt has our best interests at heart and I agree.

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

[kirklancaster]

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

I feel that you are totally wasting your time though Jaxie, because ALL of this, and more, has been said, with corroboration, many, many, times - by others as well as me - but to no avail.

[Jamie89]

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post :flutter: There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad :laugh: :love:

[Greg!]

It's more important for Scotland to stay in the UK than the EU because Scotland sells much more to the rest of the UK than it does to the EU.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/gordon-brown-tells-scots-uks-single-market-worth-far-more-than-e/

Also countries can't just join the European Union on a whim. There's a number of criteria that have to be met. As I understand it Scotland doesn't meet those criteria currently, especially the deficit-to-GDP ratio being way to high.

We wouldn't have to rejoin though since we've already been a member (albeit as part of the UK) for years. The head of the EU exit talks has said Scotland would be welcome in the EU. And the rest of the UK would still be scotlands biggest trading partner, with the added bonus of being in the single market.

[bots]

We wouldn't have to rejoin though since we've already been a member (albeit as part of the UK) for years. The head of the EU exit talks has said Scotland would be welcome in the EU. And the rest of the UK would still be scotlands biggest trading partner, with the added bonus of being in the single market.

but the head of the EU exit talks doesnt decide who can join, the member states do. Spain will never allow Scotland to join because it would give legitimacy to its regions that want separation. Scotland will never be able to join the EU on its own.

[Greg!]

but the head of the EU exit talks doesnt decide who can join, the member states do. Spain will never allow Scotland to join because it would give legitimacy to its regions that want separation. Scotland will never be able to join the EU on its own.

Scotland is already in the EU though so it wouldn't have to go through the whole rejoining process. Also An independent Scotland is completely different from Catalonia etc because it would come after a legitimate vote approved by the UK gov

[Maru]

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

And that might even be at a discount, Jaxie :laugh: Just to get diagnosed with a kidney stone, the non-Medical Center hospital billed here us $16,000+. The CT Scan alone was $4-6K. You should've seen it itemized. I'm sure childbirth involves more...

Anyway great post, our countries are so similar :clap1:

[Livia]

Give them another referendum and keep your fingers crossed Sturgeon gets her way this time. And if there's any doubt, make the referendum for the English to see whether we want them to stay.

[Northern Monkey]

Brexit makes me proud to be British.We finally unchained ourselves from the overbearing shadow of the corrupt EU organisation and we did it through democracy.It showed that we are willing to make a stand against tyranny.

[Northern Monkey]

Give them another referendum and keep your fingers crossed Sturgeon gets her way this time. And if there's any doubt, make the referendum for the English to see whether we want them to stay.

I don't think the English even care much tbh.I think the turnout would be low.
I think the Scottish people should be asked if they even want another ref rather than the SNP forcing it on them.If they do then hey go for it.

[jaxie]

I don't really know much about the Scottish Independence issues so I haven't got anything to contribute but I loved reading this post :flutter: There are things that are wrong with the country too though Jaxie (as well as a lot of people being dissatisfied with Brexit which their entitled to feel) and I think people should always strive to try and keep making things better and look for change if it's relevant and beneficial, and maybe that's what's behind a lot of people showing dissatisfaction (and of course a lot of things you mentioned wouldn't be the way they are if it wasn't for people being negative about things and demanding change), but still, that was all really nicely put and put a smile on my face and made me realise things aren't quite so bad :laugh: :love:

:hug: I'm thrilled what I said gave you a good feeling. Of course you are right that there are problems too, as I said no state is perfect but sometimes we need to look at the positives too. Balance is a good thing.

[Kizzy]

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

[bots]

Scotland is already in the EU though so it wouldn't have to go through the whole rejoining process. Also An independent Scotland is completely different from Catalonia etc because it would come after a legitimate vote approved by the UK gov

Scotland isn't already in the EU .... the UK union is not the same as Scotland on its own. It has a completely different economy and would need to pass the economic tests, take on the Euro as a currency and accept all the membership conditions of a new country joining. To say otherwise is just wrong.

Spain has already indicated that it would reject an independent Scotland's attempt to join, so its not a piece of info dragged from thin air.

If the people of Scotland want independence that's fine, I'm a Scot although I don't live there, but if they do, they should do it with eyes wide open knowing all the consequences, not on some petty point of ill considered principle.

[Greg!]

Scotland isn't already in the EU .... the UK union is not the same as Scotland on its own. It has a completely different economy and would need to pass the economic tests, take on the Euro as a currency and accept all the membership conditions of a new country joining. To say otherwise is just wrong.

Spain has already indicated that it would reject an independent Scotland's attempt to join, so its not a piece of info dragged from thin air.

If the people of Scotland want independence that's fine, I'm a Scot although I don't live there, but if they do, they should do it with eyes wide open knowing all the consequences, not on some petty point of ill considered principle.

When have Spain ever said that they'd block Scotland's membership? I remember about a year back their foreign minister saying as long as the referendum was constitutional and recognised by the UK government then they'd recognise it as well.
I don't know everything about the EU but I don't think there's a precedent for a newly created country trying to keep its membership. If we'd need to use the euro then so be it, the pound is plummeting anyway

[Johnnyuk123]

Tell me, do you know anything about Maastricht? What about the common fisheries policy? Do you know what happened when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon treaty? Do you know anything about Greece and the austerity imposed on it? What about Spain?

Why do you think the future could be so better? What are the facts that bring you to this conclusion? How do you think an independent Scotland would manage financially? What kind of influence could they have in the EU?

I'll listen to anyone's point of view but a genuine point of view needs to have back up. It has no substance if all someone can say is this is a fact because I said so or give some other evasive response. Hating your own country is pointless and rather childish unless you live in a genuinely oppressive regime, you don't, there are much worse places in the world where you could have been born. At least in the UK you can change things you don't like by participating or protesting.

What makes me proud to be British? I live in a democracy. I live in a country where you aren't arrested and tortured for your beliefs or for speaking and criticising the government. Where there is fair process of law. I live in a country that is generally tolerant with a fantastic welfare system and free health care for all. In the US for instance having a baby in hospital costs around $10000, here you can just go ahead without that financial burden. I live in a country where a couple of musicians and some comedians saw people starving to death thousands of miles away and did, and have done, what they could to help. I live in a country where people put their hands in their pockets and drew out the cash to help. I am from a people who aren't afraid to say no to tyranny. I live in the country who peacefully abolished slavery through process of law because it was wrong. There are thousands of reasons to be very proud of where you come from, how sad that you aren't proud. There is no perfect state, no perfect world but here you have it pretty damn good.



Absolutely brilliant! I could not have said it any better myself! I am so proud to be British! Even more so now after reading this uplifting post. Thanks Jaxie :)

[jaxie]

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

[jaxie]

When have Spain ever said that they'd block Scotland's membership? I remember about a year back their foreign minister saying as long as the referendum was constitutional and recognised by the UK government then they'd recognise it as well.
I don't know everything about the EU but I don't think there's a precedent for a newly created country trying to keep its membership. If we'd need to use the euro then so be it, the pound is plummeting anyway

In a press conferences just after Brexit and via the media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/nicola-sturgeons-hopes-of-keeping-scotland-in-eu-dashed-by-spani/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11054187/Spain-and-Belgium-would-veto-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html

[Greg!]

In a press conferences just after Next and via the media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/nicola-sturgeons-hopes-of-keeping-scotland-in-eu-dashed-by-spani/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11054187/Spain-and-Belgium-would-veto-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html

The first article says that Scotland has to leave the EU if it stays in the UK which everyone already knows: that's one of the reasons why independence is back on the table.

The second article isn't from someone in the Spanish government, it's just an opinion with no evidence to back it up from a random Irish person who used to work for the EU.

[jaxie]

The first article says that Scotland has to leave the EU if it stays in the UK which everyone already knows: that's one of the reasons why independence is back on the table.

The second article isn't from someone in the Spanish government, it's just an opinion with no evidence to back it up from a random Irish person who used to work for the EU.

If you need to see the actual press conference which was on the news at the time, look it up yourself.

https://www.ft.com/content/33de1fbc-3dfb-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/spanish-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-vows-to-oppose-separate-eu-talks-with-scotland-a3284226.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spanish-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-opposes-eu-talks-with-scotland-a7109176.html



Shocks me sometimes how people will argue over something they know nothing about and can't get Mr finger to work Google for them to read about. :nono:

[Greg!]

If you need to see the actual press conference which was on the news at the time, look it up yourself.

https://www.ft.com/content/33de1fbc-3dfb-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0

Shocks me sometimes how people will argue over something they know nothing about and can't get Mr finger to work Google for them to read about. :nono:

I can't read that link because it's behind a paywall, but if it's the same press conference that you were talking about in your last post then it's saying that Scotland can't stay in the EU if it's in the UK, not that they'd be barred from entering if hey were independent :)

[jaxie]

I can't read that link because it's behind a paywall, but if it's the same press conference that you were talking about in your last post then it's saying that Scotland can't stay in the EU if it's in the UK, not that they'd be barred from entering if hey were independent :)

Spain, France and Belgium all said they would veto any attempt for an independent Scotland from joining the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spanish-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-opposes-eu-talks-with-scotland-a7109176.html

Feel free to stay ignorant of the facts if you want.

[Greg!]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spanish-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-opposes-eu-talks-with-scotland-a7109176.html

Feel free to stay ignorant of the facts if you want.

Screaming are you even reading my posts, all these articles say is that Spain doesn't want Scotland to remain in the EU IF ITS STILL IN THE UK, not if it's independent.

[jaxie]

Screaming are you even reading my posts, all these articles say is that Spain doesn't want Scotland to remain in the EU IF ITS STILL IN THE UK, not if it's independent.

Try reading it again slowly with Mr finger? :smug:

He stated he was extremely against taking Scotland as an independent party.

Spain won't recognise an independent Scotland with the EU ever, it has its own region who want independence that it will not give. They will only recognise it as part of the UK.

[Greg!]

"Extremely against Scottish independence" didn't say Spain would veto it (not that they'd even have a veto as Scotland has been in the Eu for years

[kirklancaster]

Why on earth are you questioning me on past govt policy and issues relating to other countries, why on earth would that be a prerequisite to having an opinion on the future of Britain?

I feel the new ties we're forging as well as the new laws we are introducing make for a regressive regime rather than a progressive union.
I do not hate this country I said I felt despondent, it is childish to subscribe to the media driven narrative that if you are not for this autocratic so called 'sovereignty' you are against England ..I am not.

The argument that I could live in another country is entirely pointless as it does nothing to address any issue, that would be a hypothetical...I don't live in another country I was born and socialised here. Whatever happened past present or future in other countries is irrelevant in this instance, I wish to focus on the here and now.

It is not my issue to worry about how Scotland will manage financially at the moment, as once again them leaving our union is a hypothetical ..it hasn't happened. I worry how the UK will manage financially now we have left the EU because as you know nobody has the slightest clue as to what 'brexit' will ultimately cost.

What can be changed by protesting? If even our MPs are being kept in the dark about issues relating to the split then what chance have we to protest... the fact that our representatives are being kept in the dark should give an indication as to how well it will be received. If you believe in democracy then be afraid because that is not my idea of it.

At the moment you live in a fair and just society, my worry was for the future.. can I see the same level of justice and public service in the future?
No, no I can't, that's my worry.
Your confusion that not being proud of where we are heading transpires as I am not proud of our generosity as a nation is obvious, I am fiercely proud of our historical successes in regard to civil rights, my issue is can these be retained for future generations?....

I am aware there is no perfect state, again that is no argument for not questioning the state of our nation as it stands here and now, contemplating the decisions being made behind closed doors and pondering on the impact of those for our children and our childrens children.
Have we safeguarded this land of milk and honey for them, left it as we found it...made it better? I genuinely don't think we have.

Also can I say I have the right to my opinion, this is a discussion forum not a facts forum...
whoever feels I do not have the right to speak my mind based on my own observations is fundamentally wrong.
If my views are not shared let it be known I do not care,in this country we have for now free speech, therefore I claim my right to express myself and will continue to do so.

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

[lily.]

Are they going to have one every two years until they get result they want, then?

This.

I do not want another one. This place was a nightmare last time.

[Greg!]

This.

I do not want another one. This place was a nightmare last time.

"Right guys the right to self determination is cancelled because thisisbigbrother.com will get a lil messy"

[Kizzy]

Nowhere, at any time, did I say that you couldn't have an opinion, that is an overly sensitive fabrication of your own. That is even part of my point, that luxury to have and express an opinion is one of the fortunate things you have because you are British.

If you understand nothing about the EU and our history within it then how can you so desperately find it a force for good? Scotland leaving our union may be hypothetical but how they can do it viably and financially is all part of the discussion and debate or are you implying that we can only discuss the subject on your terms?

I don't understand anyone who says what is the point of protesting. It's a right of your freedom and by protesting, lobbying, voting, engaging in politics you can be a force for change. That doesn't mean everything is going to go your way but you can be part of the process. Saying what's the point is just a cop out based on apathy.

When someone goes into a business negotiation with others it would be incredibly stupid to tell everyone everything that is part of their negotiating tactic. Why should you be told before a negotiation has even started what all the bargaining chips are. That isn't undemocratic it's common sense. What is undemocratic is clutching at desperate straws to overturn a vote that was clear and fair.

We had decent civil rights and a good welfare system before the EU why would we suddenly become otherwise without it? Our decent values as a people haven't changed.

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too! :laugh:

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

[Kizzy]

To be honest Kizzy - What you write above flies in the face of your many, many, complaints about this country on numerous threads.

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

[Johnnyuk123]

I'm with Kirk and Jaxie on this one 100%

[jaxie]

Overly sensitive? You suggested I should have the inside track on several government policies before passing comment earlier....not just from this country but others too! :laugh:

When an opinion is considered a luxury we should worry, I am acutely aware other countries don't have those rights but I'm afraid the old 'it could be worse' tack is irrelevant here. This isn't another country.
Yes we have rights, the retention of those rights is the crux of my issue, the erosion of rights and civil protections is why I and others are losing faith in the current government to maintain and protect those rights.

If I understand nothing about the EU? yet I desprately find it a force for good? Who understands something about brexit?

Nobody understands even the simplest of definition of what brexit means for the UK least of all those in positions of power who advocated it, therefore I am fully within my rights to express confusion and concern regarding it's execution. ...And yet we were fed it would be a force for good, but what do we know?..... Nothing.

I can't comment on Scotland leaving the union or it's impact as it hasn't happened those are my terms because they are the terms.... there is nothing to discuss as we cannot with any accuracy at all predict an outcome.
Unlike what has happened following the EU referendum, we have something to measure against there, and so far... it's a disaster, truly a disaster. Lies lies and damned lies are all we have to take away from the pre referendum pledges.

Protest is important not sure how you arrived at the conclusion I don't feel it is, maybe my views were lost in translation?
The public opinion of protesters are so maligned and misrepresented in the media it is hard for anyone with a grievance to get an objective perceptive due to the social disobedient slant that most anti establishment causes receive.
This happens across the board and it would be false to suggest it doesn't.

The fear mongering is as you have highlighted that there is a wish to overturn the decision of the referendum, that is not the case, the business of politics in a democratic society is done overtly that is the definition it is debated and voted on by represented the behind closed doors scenario you've described is not democracy in action.

As I have stated I feel those protections are being slowly eroded it may or not have everything to do with our connection to the EU although there are workers directives that are directly under threat following brexit. Can I rely on the British public to insist the govt maintain those protections? ... I 100% hope so as long as we remain united to that cause. Sometimes I feel the needs of business is placed higher than the needs of society and this is what needs to be kept balanced.
There is no ' big society' only 'big business'.

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what? :shrug:

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

You say you are worried about rights. What rights have changed since we voted leave?

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Well you said protest was pointless. :shrug:

[JoshBB]

Coming into this topic late, but

from a selfish point of view - I hope Scotland stays, we need more left-leaning MPs in parliament & nicola has been an absolute force for change recently

from an empathetic point of view - Scotland doesn't want brexit, they should leave the UK & get what they want

[Kizzy]

I'm with Kirk and Jaxie on this one 100%

On what.. do you have an opinion or just tag teaming?

[Kizzy]

Para 1 Uh where did I say that? Government policies, say what? :shrug:

It could be worse is never irrelevant when you are bashing a country verbally.

We've not left the EU yet, where is the disaster?

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

[jaxie]

Did you not ask whether I had knowledge of the Maastricht treaty?

Bashing a country verbally, so as a British citizen constructive criticism is outlawed now?...Shame.

The decision has been made and the disaster is unfolding even before any formal action, it can only be a precursor to a woeful period in history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Still waiting to hear about the disaster, what it was, what happened?

[Kizzy]

Coming into this topic late, but

from a selfish point of view - I hope Scotland stays, we need more left-leaning MPs in parliament & nicola has been an absolute force for change recently

from an empathetic point of view - Scotland doesn't want brexit, they should leave the UK & get what they want

For me that makes sense, if a kingdom is not united in a decision then the portion that is not represented should have the option to split.

It seems rather telling that Scotland would rather be associated with the rest of Europe than the rest of the UK... Do they know something we don't? :/

[Kizzy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Still waiting to hear about the disaster, what it was, what happened?

Why the links?.... I don't want to know about Maastricht, I want to know about brexit.

The disaster that is the misinformation we are left with following the referendum decision.

[bots]

.

It seems rather telling that Scotland would rather be associated with the rest of Europe than the rest of the UK... Do they know something we don't? :/

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

[jaxie]

Why the links?.... I don't want to know about Maastricht, I want to know about brexit.

The disaster that is the misinformation we are left with following the referendum decision.

If you are pro EU and want to understand about Brexit you should read about Maastricht. It was a fairly important turning point. You see this is the issue I have, you moan and cry disaster but you don't want any information so you can understand anything about what you are talking about.

And we don't have any misinformation, they haven't released information at all yet.

So I suppose you just want to moan and cry disaster? :shrug:

[Kizzy]

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

That is what is being proposed now isn't it? It could be said that Scottish voters were spooked by the suggestion that they would be forced out of Europe to ensure they voted to remain in the Scottish referendum...Now they are being forcibly removed anyway then they have the right to vote again.

Again this is just my opinion, I don't have any knowledge of any factual evidence for this you understand.

[Northern Monkey]

there is no basis for that statement. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, it voted to remain part of the EU. Where has any Scottish vote expressed a preference to be in Europe rather than the UK

Took the words right out of my fingers

[Kizzy]

If you are pro EU and want to understand about Brexit you should read about Maastricht. It was a fairly important turning point. You see this is the issue I have, you moan and cry disaster but you don't want any information so you can understand anything about what you are talking about.

And we don't have any misinformation, they haven't released information at all yet.

So I suppose you just want to moan and cry disaster? :shrug:

Where have I stated I am pro EU here?...

I am not moaning or crying, your use of these descriptors does nothing to detract from my point that I am worried about the future direction of the UK.

You can use condescending language and emojis all you like my view remains the same, we have had misinformation as we were told that brexit meant sovereignty... it doesn't, so far it means autocracy and that is all we have as well as a tumbling £.

[Northern Monkey]

That is what is being proposed now isn't it? It could be said that Scottish voters were spooked by the suggestion that they would be forced out of Europe to ensure they voted to remain in the Scottish referendum...Now they are being forcibly removed anyway then they have the right to vote again.

Again this is just my opinion, I don't have any knowledge of any factual evidence for this you understand.

This is why i suggested they have a vote to see if they want another ref.They may not.If they do then it would be pretty clear indication that they want to leave the UK.If not then it should'nt be forced upon them by Sturgeon after the turmoil the last one caused in Scotland.

[kirklancaster]

I doesn't, it perhaps flies in the face of your misinterpretation of my issues on numerous threads.

:laugh: Yeah OK. This is a direct copy of MY repeated comments to you.

You are using so many of my words and phrases now, that I sometimes have to look twice to ensure that I am not responding to my own posts. :laugh::laugh:

[Kizzy]

This is why i suggested they have a vote to see if they want another ref.They may not.If they do then it would be pretty clear indication that they want to leave the UK.If not then it should'nt be forced upon them by Sturgeon after the turmoil the last one caused in Scotland.

I'm sure that will happen unless Sturgeon takes a leaf out of Mays book and does what she wants regardless?...

[Northern Monkey]

I'm sure that will happen unless Sturgeon takes a leaf out of Mays book and does what she wants regardless?...

May has a mandate to leave the EU.We weren't asked to vote on the fine details of it.That will depend on how the negotiations go.

[Kizzy]

May has a mandate to leave the EU.We weren't asked to vote on the fine details of it.That will depend on how the negotiations go.

Were we expecting debates in parliament?....I was.

[jaxie]

The players focus intently on their cards, holding them close to their chests as the betting gets tenser, the stakes higher.
Suddenly a small voice pipes up.
"Mummy, two sevens are really good, aren't they, Mummy? You're going to win, aren't you, Mummy?"
Mummy throws down her pathetic single pair, the paucity of her position stripped bare. Even if the kids had blurted out that there was a royal flush in hand, the stratagem would have been ruined.
You can well understand why Mrs May does not want to let MPs peek at her Brexit hand, let alone dictate what it is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37648525

Made me laugh.

[Northern Monkey]

Were we expecting debates in parliament?....I was.

What would that achieve though?Suppose some kind of conclusion was reached?It would mean nothing because the terms are'nt just down to parliament but the EU also.All it would do is show our full hand to the people we are negotiating with.Not a clever move.

[jaxie]

Were we expecting debates in parliament?....I was.

What's to debate, we were asked a question with 2 answers. We voted. :shrug:

[Johnnyuk123]

Tbh the sooner Scotland goes the better. Get rid then put that wall up.:thumbs:

[Kizzy]

What's to debate, we were asked a question with 2 answers. We voted. :shrug:

Not us... Parliament.

It was the week when the fight back against hard Tory Brexit finally began. And the loud squeals of outrage and surprise from startled ministers, sneering pundits and the lie factories of Fleet Street could be heard as far away as Brussels. Having won the vote, Tory Brexiters thought they had won the wider argument. They thought they could make Brexit mean whatever they wanted it to mean. They claimed an overreaching mandate they do not possess. They said, in effect, “trust us, we know best”. And then, muttering “no running commentaries”, they tried to close down debate.

The good news of the past few days is that they have not succeeded. And they will not get away with it. The result of June’s referendum is not in dispute. A majority voted to leave the EU. Any government, Conservative or Labour, is honour-bound to carry out that instruction. What is in dispute, rightly and passionately, is the manner of that exit, the terms and conditions of Britain’s departure, and the degree of democratic oversight that is necessary and proper. To suggest otherwise is borne of a mixture of churlishness, arrogance and fear.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/brexit-parliament-debate-article-50

[Kizzy]

NI think it's a disaster too...

Northern Ireland should push the EU to grant it special associate or even membership status to avoid the “devastating” consequences of Brexit for Irish people, Martin McGuinness has said.

The deputy first minister and Sinn Féin leader told the Guardian that leaders in Belfast and Dublin needed to work together to make the case for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. The province voted 56:44 in favour of staying in the EU in June’s referendum, but will be forced to pull out when Britain does.

“As things sit at the moment we are going to suffer big time,” McGuinness said. “Theresa May says ‘Brexit means Brexit’, but so far as we are concerned Brexit means disaster for the people of Ireland.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/martin-mcguinness-calls-for-special-eu-status-for-northern-ireland

[Kizzy]

mZJFXReAoRs

[jaxie]

Not us... Parliament.

It was the week when the fight back against hard Tory Brexit finally began. And the loud squeals of outrage and surprise from startled ministers, sneering pundits and the lie factories of Fleet Street could be heard as far away as Brussels. Having won the vote, Tory Brexiters thought they had won the wider argument. They thought they could make Brexit mean whatever they wanted it to mean. They claimed an overreaching mandate they do not possess. They said, in effect, “trust us, we know best”. And then, muttering “no running commentaries”, they tried to close down debate.

The good news of the past few days is that they have not succeeded. And they will not get away with it. The result of June’s referendum is not in dispute. A majority voted to leave the EU. Any government, Conservative or Labour, is honour-bound to carry out that instruction. What is in dispute, rightly and passionately, is the manner of that exit, the terms and conditions of Britain’s departure, and the degree of democratic oversight that is necessary and proper. To suggest otherwise is borne of a mixture of churlishness, arrogance and fear.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/brexit-parliament-debate-article-50

Parliament work for us. The people have spoken, at this point in the game apart from the bill setting the legalities of leaving in motion there is nothing to debate. Not until dialogue has happened and there is a deal on offer. Of course if we go hard credit there is nothing to debate anyway it's a straight forward out.

[jaxie]

NI think it's a disaster too...

Northern Ireland should push the EU to grant it special associate or even membership status to avoid the “devastating” consequences of Brexit for Irish people, Martin McGuinness has said.

The deputy first minister and Sinn Féin leader told the Guardian that leaders in Belfast and Dublin needed to work together to make the case for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. The province voted 56:44 in favour of staying in the EU in June’s referendum, but will be forced to pull out when Britain does.

“As things sit at the moment we are going to suffer big time,” McGuinness said. “Theresa May says ‘Brexit means Brexit’, but so far as we are concerned Brexit means disaster for the people of Ireland.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/16/martin-mcguinness-calls-for-special-eu-status-for-northern-ireland

Well Martin McGuiness is a Republican so is not without other motives to make issue of Brexit. There are political and bargaining positions at play here.

[Kizzy]

Parliament work for us. The people have spoken, at this point in the game apart from the bill setting the legalities of leaving in motion there is nothing to debate. Not until dialogue has happened and there is a deal on offer. Of course if we go hard credit there is nothing to debate anyway it's a straight forward out.

Sorry ... Are you misunderstanding what I am saying?

It's not the issue of in/out that is up for negotiation in any way.

[jaxie]

Sorry ... Are you misunderstanding what I am saying?

It's not the issue of in/out that is up for negotiation in any way.

Nope you just took two parts out of context and didn't really read what I said.

[Kizzy]

Nope you just took two parts out of context and didn't really read what I said.

Yes I did, you stated there is nothing to debate... there really is .

[jaxie]

Yes I did, you stated there is nothing to debate... there really is .

At this point there really isnt. There is nothing on the table until they negotiate. There is nothing to tell.

[Ammi]

"Right guys the right to self determination is cancelled because thisisbigbrother.com will get a lil messy"

..(I think, Greg..)..that Lily meant Scotland with 'this place', not the forum...she's a Scottish member herself...it would be quite gruelling for the people of Scotland to go through again...

[bots]

At this point there really isnt. There is nothing on the table until they negotiate. There is nothing to tell.

Most of the options will be driven by political leanings and as is always the case when we run things ourselves, its up to the government in power to negotiate. Its not some glorious free for all that will be debated at microscopic detail. If it was, we would still be trying to agree negotiations in 30 years time :laugh:

[Greg!]

..(I think, Greg..)..that Lily meant Scotland with 'this place', not the forum...she's a Scottish member herself...it would be quite gruelling for the people of Scotland to go through again...

Oh lmao yeah I thought that after I posted it. I'm Scottish too and imo Scotland really wasn't that bad during the last one. There were quite a lot of heated debates but I don't know one single person that properly fell out with someone over it

[Ammi]

Oh lmao yeah I thought that after I posted it. I'm Scottish too and imo Scotland really wasn't that bad during the last one. There were quite a lot of heated debates but I don't know one single person that properly fell out with someone over it

...I think it's one of those things that probably affected people differently in areas and the passion felt in specific places..?...I said earlier in the thread of someone on another forum that talked about it at the time and it was horrendous for her.../fall outs in families and with neighbours etc because of differing intentions of voting...I do agree, Nicola should only think of it if it's what the majority want but I do think that is a big consideration as well because it's the people that have to go through it all, if they feel it's the way forward for them...but yeah, I think we're all influenced with our own personal experiences with these things as well...although I haven't agreed with an unelected PM in Theresa May, I'm not really in any rush to go through another GE election either..:laugh:..

[jaxie]

Most of the options will be driven by political leanings and as is always the case when we run things ourselves, its up to the government in power to negotiate. Its not some glorious free for all that will be debated at microscopic detail. If it was, we would still be trying to agree negotiations in 30 years time :laugh:

Exactly right! I don't get all this every bit must be negotiated in parliament, and it is only on this issue that I keep hearing people whimper about it. That isn't how every aspect of government works, if it was nothing would ever get done. And at this point there really is nothing for anyone to debate if that was the route they were going on because no negotiations have been held. The government are probably still getting their act together on this.

[Niamh.]

Well Martin McGuiness is a Republican so is not without other motives to make issue of Brexit. There are political and bargaining positions at play here.

tbf though we trade a lot with the North since we're part of the same small Island, it's a big issue for us as well as northern Ireland, our government have also been asking about this

[jaxie]

tbf though we trade a lot with the North since we're part of the same small Island, it's a big issue for us as well as northern Ireland, our government have also been asking about this

Of course, there are a lot of interested parties who want to know what's going to happen and if they will now have to pay tarrifs. But I think those in the Union claiming disaster and nevermores (SNP, Sinn Fein) at this early point do have their agendas as they believe there are bargaining chips to be had as well as any other concerns to their economy about leaving, obviously they want to play as big a part in deciding what goes down as they possibly can.

[Niamh.]

Of course, there are a lot of interested parties who want to know what's going to happen and if they will now have to pay tarrifs. But I think those in the Union claiming disaster and nevermores (SNP, Sinn Fein) at this early point do have their agendas as they believe there are bargaining chips to be had as well as any other concerns to their economy about leaving, obviously they want to play as big a part in deciding what goes down as they possibly can.

They may have agendas but it doesn't take away the fact that it's a huge issue for both the ROI and NI. Where I work we deal a fair bit with the North so it will directly affect my job for example

[jaxie]

They may have agendas but it doesn't take away the fact that it's a huge issue for both the ROI and NI. Where I work we deal a fair bit with the North so it will directly affect my job for example

It's all depending really on what sort of deal they strike with the EU isn't it. I don't think any of us really knows whether it will be some sort of single market/friends with benefits deal or a full out yet. Other countries do have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay in free trade deals as they don't want to have to export to us under tarriffs so no one can say yet what they will be willing to compromise on or not. At the moment I think all this my way or the highway talk from people like Tusk is bluster until they actually start talking. I don't think anyone can call it a disaster at this point.

[Niamh.]

It's all depending really on what sort of deal they strike with the EU isn't it. I don't think any of us really knows whether it will be some sort of single market/friends with benefits deal or a full out yet. Other countries do have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay in free trade deals as they don't want to have to export to us under tarriffs so no one can say yet what they will be willing to compromise on or not. At the moment I think all this my way or the highway talk from people like Tusk is bluster until they actually start talking. I don't think anyone can call it a disaster at this point.

Indeed, it's just more of a worry for us than any other EU country i would imagine because of NI and also the rest of the UK as we're so close to the Uk and so far away from all the other countries. And we trade alot with you

[user104658]

It's all depending really on what sort of deal they strike with the EU isn't it. I don't think any of us really knows whether it will be some sort of single market/friends with benefits deal or a full out yet. Other countries do have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay in free trade deals as they don't want to have to export to us under tarriffs so no one can say yet what they will be willing to compromise on or not. At the moment I think all this my way or the highway talk from people like Tusk is bluster until they actually start talking. I don't think anyone can call it a disaster at this point.

So what you want... is for the UK to be a part of the single market and enjoy all of the benefits of the single market, without having to comply with the rules of the single market, agree to the open borders that are a huge part of that open market, or pay anything towards its upkeep?

I believe that's what's known as "having your cake and eating it too", isn't it?

The countries that are not full EU members but still engage with the single market in meaningful ways (e.g. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland) simply piggyback all or most of the trade rules directly from EU law every time a new one comes into force, in order to still be compatible with the market. Also, the leaders of these countries have SPECIFICALLY STATED that the only reason that works for them, is because they have relatively small populations. The UK couldn't do the same even if it wanted to, because of the size of the population and economy. And even if it was possible - what was the point of all that bleating about getting out of Europe to "not allow others to make our laws!"... only to then follow all of the EU laws anyway? :shrug:

[jaxie]

So what you want... is for the UK to be a part of the single market and enjoy all of the benefits of the single market, without having to comply with the rules of the single market, agree to the open borders that are a huge part of that open market, or pay anything towards its upkeep?

I believe that's what's known as "having your cake and eating it too", isn't it?

The countries that are not full EU members but still engage with the single market in meaningful ways (e.g. Norway, Switzerland, Iceland) simply piggyback all or most of the trade rules directly from EU law every time a new one comes into force, in order to still be compatible with the market. Also, the leaders of these countries have SPECIFICALLY STATED that the only reason that works for them, is because they have relatively small populations. The UK couldn't do the same even if it wanted to, because of the size of the population and economy. And even if it was possible - what was the point of all that bleating about getting out of Europe to "not allow others to make our laws!"... only to then follow all of the EU laws anyway? :shrug:

Me personally, no, I'd like a hard Brexit I'd just like us to leave and get on with it. Perhaps make the commonwealth a beacon of free trade. We have options. But I think there are a lot of other people who have an interest in that. We have no way of knowing what way the negotiations will go yet. :shrug:

There are Germans, French and other national business who might prefer to carry in free trade with us, that's rather the point of negotiating a deal. I would disagree that it is having our cake and eating it though. When we signed on, we signed up for a free market, there was no four rules then. The rest all came along later with treaties we were never asked to approve. I'm not sure why we can't still have a trade deal with the EU if it's desirable to all parties. It is what we signed up for in the first place.

It reminds me a bit of buying a car, then a few years later the company comes along and says, we are going to take the wheels back because we've made up a new rule. That's what happened to us. We signed up for one thing, then they said oh no the rules have changed. Now you have to do this and this and this to have that.

[bots]

I think we should have a brexit that best suits are future prosperity. Its not something that will ever be set in stone like we had being a member of the EU. It will evolve and adjust with time.

Brexit really isn't a thing as by default, all laws remain as is, they will just be shaped and tweaked as the decades go by. I do mean decades, because anyone that thinks this is short term is kidding themselves.

[jaxie]

I think we should have a brexit that best suits are future prosperity. Its not something that will ever be set in stone like we had being a member of the EU. It will evolve and adjust with time.

Brexit really isn't a thing as by default, all laws remain as is, they will just be shaped and tweaked as the decades go by. I do mean decades, because anyone that thinks this is short term is kidding themselves.

That's the thing isn't it, it's a new direction or path and we've been on the current one 40 years.

[Kizzy]

I think we should have a brexit that best suits are future prosperity. Its not something that will ever be set in stone like we had being a member of the EU. It will evolve and adjust with time.

Brexit really isn't a thing as by default, all laws remain as is, they will just be shaped and tweaked as the decades go by. I do mean decades, because anyone that thinks this is short term is kidding themselves.

It will, it will have to become statute... that is set in stone basically the view that this is something fluid is wrong.

We don't have decades, we have a small window or the door will shut and we will be left with the WTO (world trade organisation)

[jaxie]

And we are meant to have faith in a govt so ill prepared?...

Yes they are basically making it up as they go along, and it shows, it's a catalogue of errors... is it any wonder some are worried?

As I keep saying they haven't set out their case so it's hardly a catalogue of errors. Where do you get these ideas from? You are claiming catastrophes and errors and nothing much has happened yet.

You are free to worry but it won't solve anything or make the negotiation happen quicker. :shrug:

We survived many generations and even prospered without the EU. We will continue. It's not the end of the world.

[bots]

It will, it will have to become statute... that is set in stone basically the view that this is something fluid is wrong.

We don't have decades, we have a small window or the door will shut and we will be left with the WTO (world trade organisation)

for goodness sake Kizzy, did you read what I said? By default the laws all stay as they currently are. If and when a change is required, it will go through as law, so if things don't need to change, they won't. So it could be decades, literally.

In terms of trade deals, it will be agreed on by the government of the time, whether that be conservative, labour or anyone else. The details of trade deals will not be agreed by parliament.

[Kizzy]

for goodness sake Kizzy, did you read what I said? By default the laws all stay as they currently are. If and when a change is required, it will go through as law, so if things don't need to change, they won't. So it could be decades, literally.

In terms of trade deals, it will be agreed on by the government of the time, whether that be conservative, labour or anyone else. The details of trade deals will not be agreed by parliament.

Yes, yes I did.

What suits our future prosperity?

[bots]

Yes, yes I did.

What suits our future prosperity?

whatever is deemed by the government of the time to be appropriate. I say that to explicitly include all future governments, because it will be their responsibility to ensure the UK keeps getting the best deals from around the world that it can.

[Kizzy]

As I keep saying they haven't set out their case so it's hardly a catalogue of errors. Where do you get these ideas from? You are claiming catastrophes and errors and nothing much has happened yet.

You are free to worry but it won't solve anything or make the negotiation happen quicker. :shrug:

We survived many generations and even prospered without the EU. We will continue. It's not the end of the world.

I get the ideas from the same place you do... but I interpret them entirely differently.

I don't have your blind faith, clearly.

[Kizzy]

Well well well..

Senior Conservative MPs have seized on a forgotten Government promise to let Parliament decide the response to any referendum result – insisting it must hold true for Brexit.

Ministers agreed, exactly six years ago, that referendums “cannot be legally binding” – which meant MPs and peers should decide “whether or not to take action” on the verdict given by voters.

The unequivocal statement flies in the face of Theresa May’s repeated insistence that her Government, not Parliament, will decide how to deliver Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

[user104658]

Well well well..

Senior Conservative MPs have seized on a forgotten Government promise to let Parliament decide the response to any referendum result – insisting it must hold true for Brexit.

Ministers agreed, exactly six years ago, that referendums “cannot be legally binding” – which meant MPs and peers should decide “whether or not to take action” on the verdict given by voters.

The unequivocal statement flies in the face of Theresa May’s repeated insistence that her Government, not Parliament, will decide how to deliver Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

PMSL if they can't legally implement an EU exit.

[Kizzy]

PMSL if they can't legally implement an EU exit.

And it was a tory construct, they only have themselves to blame...
Of course parliament should decide :/

[Kizzy]

#mad :laugh:

A Tory councillor who called for anyone supporting EU membership to be charged with treason is thought to have been suspended.

Christian Holliday, a councillor in Guildford, Surrey, placed a petition on Parliament’s website demanding that the 1848 Treason Felony Act be updated to include “the following offences”.

They would be: “To imagine, devise, promote, work, or encourage others, to support UK becoming a member of the European Union.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-councillor-demands-a-treason-charge-for-anyone-supporting-eu-membership-a7365916.html