Why is it usually so obvious when someone is gay?

[Northern Monkey]

So i was just watching this video of this gay guy coming out to his Conservative Christian Dad.
-JJM0ewta0I
You could tell how hard it was for the lad and his dad actually took it really well.His dad said he'd 'had his suspicions' and I lol'd at that because it's blatantly obvious that he's gay.He's not acting particularly camp or extrovert but he has all the mannerisms that you expect and the not so deep voice.
But then that got me thinking.Like at a guess 95% of the time you can tell when someone is gay.Not always but i'm pretty confident that i can usually always tell.Infact I don't think i've ever been wrong if i'm being honest.

So what is it that makes it so obvious most of the time?
I mean just because someone is attracted to the same sex shouldn't necessarily be coupled with a stereotype.But it is and it's not just a made up stereotype.It's actually there.
Now I don't believe all gays put it on.I know some flaunt it more but i think underneath that these traits would still be there.Just not so overtly.
Is it a gene that gives these traits along with the same sex attraction?
Or is it maybe less testosterone and more estrogen?
Or something else?
Anyone studied this stuff?

[Saturn]

I am not sure why we tolerate this coming out thing as if its a bad thing or a not normal thing?

[UserSince2005]

I like that gays usually are so gay, becuase it makes me special, how masc i am. no one can tell

[Northern Monkey]

I am not sure why we tolerate this coming out thing as if its a bad thing or a not normal thing?

Well i think in Conservative Christian America it's still viewed as 'not normal' to many very devout Christians so 'coming out' would be a much bigger issue there.

[_Tom_]

It's not always so obvious. People are usually surprised when they find out when I'm gay.

That is, unless I'm drinking. :shame:

[Northern Monkey]

It's not always so obvious. People are usually surprised when they find out when I'm gay.

That is, unless I'm drinking. :shame::laugh:
I did mention that it's not the case all the time.Just from what i've seen personally and on TV etc.

[kirklancaster]

:laugh: I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too :laugh: So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'. :hee:

[Northern Monkey]

:laugh: I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too :laugh: So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'. :hee:

Yeah,I'm only speaking from my Possibly limited exposure.Although i did used to go in gay clubs quite abit cos they were open later and had the best tunes back when i was out every week so it's not like i've been sheltered.

[kirklancaster]

Yeah,I'm only speaking from my Possibly limited exposure.Although i did used to go in gay clubs quite abit cos they were open later and had the best tunes back when i was out every week so it's not like i've been sheltered.

:laugh: True back in my day too Paul. Pure Hedonism were those Gay Clubs. :laugh:

[Jamie89]

So i was just watching this video of this gay guy coming out to his Conservative Christian Dad.

You could tell how hard it was for the lad and his dad actually took it really well.His dad said he'd 'had his suspicions' and I lol'd at that because it's blatantly obvious that he's gay.He's not acting particularly camp or extrovert but he has all the mannerisms that you expect and the not so deep voice.
But then that got me thinking.Like at a guess 95% of the time you can tell when someone is gay.Not always but i'm pretty confident that i can usually always tell.Infact I don't think i've ever been wrong if i'm being honest.

So what is it that makes it so obvious most of the time?
I mean just because someone is attracted to the same sex shouldn't necessarily be coupled with a stereotype.But it is and it's not just a made up stereotype.It's actually there.
Now I don't believe all gays put it on.I know some flaunt it more but i think underneath that these traits would still be there.Just not so overtly.
Is it a gene that gives these traits along with the same sex attraction?
Or is it maybe less testosterone and more estrogen?
Or something else?
Anyone studied this stuff?

The fact that there are a lot of guys where you wouldn't know or think that they're gay makes the logic behind the 95% kind of faulty, where do they factor in? How can they be qualified in order to put them in the other 5% if you don't know that they are gay? You may hardly ever be wrong when it's something that crosses your mind about someone, but what about all the men you see and meet who are gay and it never even crosses your mind they might be? Basically what you're saying is why are most camp men gay, right? And I'd say that it has less to do with specific personalities of gay people, and more to do with straight guys generally repressing their camp sides. There's a stigma still to being camp so it makes more sense that that would be the case, because I think where there's a stigma, it's generally the people who are more likely to be judged incorrectly that are going to have a wariness of it/be affected by it (conscious or subconscious)... and there's less reason a gay man would feel that stigma than a straight man (since the stigma is appearing gay). Obviously all of that's generalisations too and that's why there's no 100% rule that covers everyone, I mean you see it a lot in the gay community too, the 'straight acting' gay which is just someone who tries not to act camp/takes pride in not being 'spotted' etc. It's all stupid really but it all plays into it. I also think the process of 'coming out', if it's a positive experience, it makes you care less what people think of you and can give you more self confidence, all of which could also result in caring less about appearing camp, and obviously straight people don't get to experience that.
Campness is just a personality trait at the end of the day, nothing more, and it's not necessarily a case of just whether or not you have the trait, but also what life experiences you've had/haven't had that would affect whether or not you're confident in expressing it.

[Northern Monkey]

The fact that there are a lot of guys where you wouldn't know or think that they're gay makes the logic behind the 95% kind of faulty, where do they factor in? How can they be qualified in order to put them in the other 5% if you don't know that they are gay? You may hardly ever be wrong when it's something that crosses your mind about someone, but what about all the men you see and meet who are gay and it never even crosses your mind they might be? Basically what you're saying is why are most camp men gay, right? And I'd say that it has less to do with specific personalities of gay people, and more to do with straight guys generally repressing their camp sides. There's a stigma still to being camp so it makes more sense that that would be the case, because I think where there's a stigma, it's generally the people who are more likely to be judged incorrectly that are going to have a wariness of it/be affected by it (conscious or subconscious)... and there's less reason a gay man would feel that stigma than a straight man (since the stigma is appearing gay). Obviously all of that's generalisations too and that's why there's no 100% rule that covers everyone, I mean you see it a lot in the gay community too, the 'straight acting' gay which is just someone who tries not to act camp/takes pride in not being 'spotted' etc. It's all stupid really but it all plays into it. I also think the process of 'coming out', if it's a positive experience, it makes you care less what people think of you and can give you more self confidence, all of which could also result in caring less about appearing camp, and obviously straight people don't get to experience that.
Campness is just a personality trait at the end of the day, nothing more, and it's not necessarily a case of just whether or not you have the trait, but also what life experiences you've had/haven't had that would affect whether or not you're confident in expressing it.Good answer:thumbs:

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

[Jamie89]

Good answer:thumbs:

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

I don't think there is 'a voice thing' :laugh: In my experience I've seen no trend to that at all. There is on TV, but that's just because of TV character tropes.
For arguments sake though your voice can be effected (to an extent) by your mindset. For example transexuals sometimes 'train' their voices when they transition, my friend who is female to male trans consciously trained his voice and now doesn't even think about it. So his voice is different, and deeper, but it's not something he's "putting on". So I suppose it could be possible that on a much more subconcious level, straight men or gay men might 'train' their voices to fit in better with their generic stereotypes? I think if that was the case though it would be a very small minority and not something that is 'generally' the case, like I say, I don't see "less gay men with a deep voice" compared to straight men at all. Again, there could be a lot of gay men with deep voices where you're not registering they're gay to include in all this, because you don't know they're gay.

[Shaun]

:laugh:
I did mention that it's not the case all the time.Just from what i've seen personally and on TV etc.

It's been a personal gripe of mine for a while that any time a gay person has been given a job on television it's been largely due to their exaggerated personalities and a flippant job in either fashion, celebrity culture or dancing.

But then, on the other hand, one could argue that me finding fault with effeminate presenters and 'stereotypes' could be seen as part of the problem: some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity? Everyone's encountered the odd gay guy who's extremely over-the-top and irritating (most of them are cast on Big Brother) but is having a camp voice and a less conventional sense of men's fashion all that objectionable?

It's a bit of a catch-22. Some LGBT want more representation in the media, but then get a bit annoyed if they're not exactly like them. But I do still think there's a casual kind of "haha look at this queen" role that's filled in most mainstream representations of 'a gay', and you have to wonder if that's pandering to the narrow-minded. One very much doubts that Rylan, Gok Wan (although he's not too extreme), Louie Spence, Bruno Tonioli, Alan Carr, Louis Walsh and John Barrowman are taken all that seriously. I don't know if I can name many TV personalities that are queer but not a joke figure. Ellen DeGeneres, Sandi Toksvig, Sue Perkins and Stephen Fry are all that spring to mind. So basically the women :laugh:

The issue of visibility in the media very much hinges on how "visible" it is, I guess.

[Maru]

Well i think in Conservative Christian America it's still viewed as 'not normal' to many very devout Christians so 'coming out' would be a much bigger issue there.

Aside from the Christian community having a stance on it, American culture was fairly sheltered before LGBT culture coming out (:laugh:) changed that...

We can't even see penises on TV and much of culture waters those things down. I remember the first time I opened up a live UK TV stream they were cutting into a cow or something doing a live birth... :laugh: I'm like this is clearly NOT America. *BB comes on** Ooh look a penis

A commercial like this would be considered too relaxed (taboo) for our TV... though we are slowly relaxing... some...

QC0uGcorAl0

So even if someone is not Christian, they may still be conditioned by the same Christian ideals... if that makes sense.

[Maru]

Oh, and girls kissing each other and boys kissing each other on TV would've been an HBO only thing for a long time...

[Marsh.]

the not so deep voice.

:suspect:

[UserSince2005]

some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity?

As a masculine gay man, I am proud not to be feminine. I am proud of my dominance, strength, aggressiveness, competitive nature and ability to make straight men turn into butty boys.

[Maru]

Back on OT, I don't know how I tell someone is gay... I just see clues sometimes and mull it over in my head... not really their voice or demeanor as much as how they carry themselves around others and treats other of the opposite sex. Though I make it a point not to go prying around in other people's business... I hate when people get into my own so I wouldn't want to get into theirs uninvited. Have enough of my own drama... :laugh: If I see a bunch of clues, I don't really care to know who is sleeping with who really, so I guess I wouldn't really be a good judge...

I also know too many people who fit the bill and are obviously straight. Some intellectuals I hang around who are fairly feminine (some are "metro sexual") but they are 100% straight... like listen to N'Sync and Backstreet Boys while weeping over the phone about a long lost love straight :laugh:

I really hate that we hold men to that awkward stereotype too... like they can't show emotion or have a high voice, a different way of dressing etc... they have to 'look' and 'act' like men... it's sexist.

[kirklancaster]

Good answer:thumbs:

But what about the voice thing?Could that be genetic maybe?Why do you generally(not always) see less gay men with a deep voice and more straight men with a deeper voice?That's not really something you can put on your whole life?

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.

[Firewire]

I'm not camp

[Withano]

You only tally the times you correctly identidy someone as gay.. You wouldnt really admit youre ever wrong if you think hey are but they dont say so because youd sooner presume they just havent came out yet, and youd be none the wiser if a guy you thought was straight was actually gay.

[Niamh.]

It's been a personal gripe of mine for a while that any time a gay person has been given a job on television it's been largely due to their exaggerated personalities and a flippant job in either fashion, celebrity culture or dancing.

But then, on the other hand, one could argue that me finding fault with effeminate presenters and 'stereotypes' could be seen as part of the problem: some masculine-acting gay men in particular seem fervent in trying to 'normalise' themselves and appear more manly than most straight guys bother to be. Which asks the question: what is wrong with femininity? Everyone's encountered the odd gay guy who's extremely over-the-top and irritating (most of them are cast on Big Brother) but is having a camp voice and a less conventional sense of men's fashion all that objectionable?

It's a bit of a catch-22. Some LGBT want more representation in the media, but then get a bit annoyed if they're not exactly like them. But I do still think there's a casual kind of "haha look at this queen" role that's filled in most mainstream representations of 'a gay', and you have to wonder if that's pandering to the narrow-minded. One very much doubts that Rylan, Gok Wan (although he's not too extreme), Louie Spence, Bruno Tonioli, Alan Carr, Louis Walsh and John Barrowman are taken all that seriously. I don't know if I can name many TV personalities that are queer but not a joke figure. Ellen DeGeneres, Sandi Toksvig, Sue Perkins and Stephen Fry are all that spring to mind. So basically the women :laugh:

The issue of visibility in the media very much hinges on how "visible" it is, I guess.

Apart from Gok Wan being in the fashion industry I find him really un-camp (if that's a word)

Graham Norton is very camp but is still taken seriously as a presenter I think

[Maru]

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.

Yeah I think at best it's a 'clue' to consider... there's no exact science to it. :laugh:

My husband's brother's voice 'changed' after coming out... so I think to some degree, it's to fit into the stereotype/box or play the role or whatever... I've heard some gay men say that that annoys them.

I'm white and yet I grew up around hispanics so I have a Houston accent with a bit of latina mixed in at times... so I've been told. But then there are hispanics who are just as white as me (maybe moreso)... that have more of a Spanish heritage, whereas many Mexicans have more of the native American blood mixed in so they look browner... you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

I was told I was a lesbian often growing up because I had the knowledge that I have, for wearing athletic clothes, being a tom boy, fixing computers, etc... I didn't pay it any mind. I laugh my way to the bank because those things that made me 'different' are major assets to standing out in a highly competitive field. Fitting in is a serious handicap in life so I've learned through life experience. So... jokes on them, because I didn't give into stereotypes... now the roles have reversed... it's cool to be you, to buck the trend so to speak, cool to be nerdy, say **** you to gender stereotypes... etc

Oh and I can't tell if a woman is a lesbian or not... I usually find out through a conversation. Anywhere from "why are guys so dumb?" type conversations ...or "Have you tried running this on your computer? It's pretty cool..." or... "By the way, you're hot!"... etc

One of my friends in HS that didn't really judge me was a friend who came out to me as a 'lesbian'... he was confused then, but later found out he was transgender. I figured he was just like any other person before then... just really sporty. I knew a girl then too that played basketball like no tomorrow... Anyway, she was treated similar to myself for being sporty. She had a child out of wedlock some years back, but she is so happy now and her family really supports her. Her father was a substitute teacher and we used to talk nerd crap. I pretty much talk to anyone who will listen... :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Yeah I think at best it's a 'clue' to consider... there's no exact science to it. :laugh:

My husband's brother's voice 'changed' after coming out... so I think to some degree, it's to fit into the stereotype/box or play the role or whatever... I've heard some gay men say that that annoys them.

I'm white and yet I grew up around hispanics so I have a Houston accent with a bit of latina mixed in at times... so I've been told. But then there are hispanics who are just as white as me (maybe moreso)... that have more of a Spanish heritage, whereas many Mexicans have more of the native American blood mixed in so they look browner... you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

I was told I was a lesbian often growing up because I had the knowledge that I have, for wearing athletic clothes, being a tom boy, fixing computers, etc... I didn't pay it any mind. I laugh my way to the bank because those things that made me 'different' are major assets to standing out in a highly competitive field. Fitting in a serious handicap in life so I've learned through life experience. So... jokes on them, because I didn't give into stereotypes... now the roles have reversed... it's cool to be you, to buck the trend so to speak, cool to be nerdy, say **** you to gender stereotypes... etc

Oh and I can't tell if a woman is a lesbian or not... I usually find out through a conversation. Anywhere from "why are guys so dumb?" type conversations ...or "Have you tried running this on your computer? It's pretty cool..." or... "By the way, you're hot!"... etc

One of my friends in HS that didn't really judge me was a friend who came out to me as a 'lesbian'... he was confused then, but later found out he was transgender. I figured he was just like any other person before then... just really sporty. I knew a girl then too that played basketball like no tomorrow... Anyway, she was treated similar to myself for being sporty. She had a child out of wedlock some years back, but she is so happy now and her family really supports her. Her father was a substitute teacher and we used to talk nerd crap. I pretty much talk to anyone who will listen... :laugh:

:joker::joker::joker: This is your most humorous post yet Maru - I literally nearly peed myself at the emboldened bits. :laugh:

Lots of truth there though as usual.

[Rob!]

I'm not camp

:suspect:

.

[kirklancaster]

.

:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Apart from Gok Wan being in the fashion industry I find him really un-camp (if that's a word)

Graham Norton is very camp but is still taken seriously as a presenter I think

It is now Niamh. :laugh:

[armand.kay]

Not everyone can be a masc legend like me

[kirklancaster]

Not everyone can be a masc legend like me

:laugh: That may well be Armand, but if so, then you are masc legend with the most beautiful eyes I have ever seen. :hee:

[Northern Monkey]

I do know exactly where you are coming from with the 'voice' point Paul, because I have met a lot of gay men who DO have a very distinct voice and manner of speaking; pitch, tone, inflexions - the lot.

It's very strange, because it does not seem to matter where such gay me come from either - I have met Geordies, Scousers, Tykes and Brummies, even Northern Irish Gay men who all had the same type of voices and way of speaking etc.

It is not 'effeminate' in any 'Larry Grayson'/ Alan Carr way, but yet there is a 'quality' there.

Anyway, I know what you mean.Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

[kirklancaster]

Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

:laugh: Yeah Paul - I would have suspected it too if I'd been his dad.

[Maru]

:joker::joker::joker: This is your most humorous post yet Maru - I literally nearly peed myself at the emboldened bits. :laugh:

Lots of truth there though as usual.

:laugh: Thanks. I always try to have a good sense of humor. So much irony all around us. It keeps things interesting... :laugh:

Yeah exactly.Like take the guy in the vid for instance.He's been hiding his sexuality from his dad however he still has that quality so to me it would seem that it's just his voice and he's not changing it in any way.He wouldn't put on a gayer voice while trying to hide it and his dad said that he has suspected for a while.

:laugh: Yeah Paul - I would have suspected it too if I'd been his dad.

I would've had that conversation with my child (still childless atm) before that point if I suspected. Just because I don't want to further stigmatize it by walking around it like it is a bigger deal than it really is... my grandmother actually asked me (Southern Baptist of all people--very severe Christianity) once and I think she told me it would be fine, that she could tell me... funny enough, she's a democrat but is also a southern Baptist... still, her step-dad was a Baptist preacher and he did everything with other women and to them that a preacher should never do (he was very abusive). So I guess she learned early on the colors of hypocrisy so to speak... and so it affected her viewpoint.

Still, I've heard people who talk like this. I have some in my circle in IT who speak like this and again, the more intellectual crowd... they don't really subscribe to gender roles as much as other crowds I guess. With my husband's work (law enforcement), there's a lot of macho personalities for sure... but we have some teddy bears too. (And some alcoholics)

Anyway, for this video, his behaviors to me are only clues. Maybe the way he is speaking... like how he is moving his hands, his shoulders are relaxed and he is relating to his father with a lot of focus on openly sharing his emotional viewpoints. Hard to put words to it. It reminds me of when people use hand gestures to relate to each other... those in LGBT have similar hand gestures to communicate meanings and empathy that connects to others in that group. It could also be that is the way he is always presented him, as someone more effeminate... still I don't see that as necessarily meaning someone is homosexual. Again I have a friend who acts like this and it is very similar... so not a smoking gun imho.

Actually, I think that is so common with the younger generations.. straight or gay... but if anyone is hanging around others with the same status, they just pick up subconsciously over time the way his circle interacts and perhaps he picked up those behaviors there...but I feel like his voice and hand gestures, his way of speech... I don't really see it as obvious. I see it as circumstantial.

For example, when I was in my studio design program... I started hanging around snobby art nerds... we started to use the same vocabulary, ways of explaining our ideas, etc... because of things like critique being not optional, but mandatory, having to hang around nudists (read: art models), having to hang up our work for all to see and yet handle a tongue lashing with class.... a lot of barriers had to broken and to make it easier and to show support, we spoke and acted a certain way to engender respect for others of our trade and this is how we learned and modeled our behavior as we got further into the program.

With the LGBT movement, they have to deal with these barriers as well.. so I notice people in those groups, they pick up behaviors that are encouraging others to express--not suppress... and then of course, you have 'display' behaviors to show interest if it's a club setting :smug: (yay clubs)... these are behaviors they herald because it prominently advertises their values of acceptance and open-ness... so this is what they are about. People, whether they have cognitive dissonance about this or not, will often display these values in some manner... even from birth, because they not only live within the context of their identity, but a context of society.

Just like art snobs hang around Starbucks with sketchbooks and laptops all the time... to show that our intellectual mind and our creativity is unchained from the mundane. :laugh: Most of us have been creative all our lives. So I don't know his age, but in my youth, the walls of stigmatism were already crashing down due to years of movement... so it's possible he had already fully acknowledged (i.e. not suppressed really) his identity, if only subconsciously, and moved towards that social collective in that manner.

Generally, and this could be any situation or circumstance, but it is often psychological to 'act out' if you feel overly suppressed by those around you... it's a way to cope with living in this cardboard box called life. You know with little effort you can escape that box... but you are told repeatedly, you will pay some high price if you do. So you stay in, but in the meantime, you are really frustrated with it... so you may act out in smaller ways to cope. My husband's brother had similar issues with it and between the alcohol and manic behavior... this was how he coped. But he was a very successful businessmen otherwise... at least until the alcohol took over his life and ruined that. Edit: Still he didn't start to try to correct that until he came out... then his life kinda hit the bottom, but he did finally start picking up the pieces and is getting his life together again...

Sexuality is so private for most people, so I don't think that most people subconsciously go out of their way to advertise their affections one way or another... but I guess if you had seen the whole episode, it would've looked different to you. But just based on this clip, I don't see it being incredibly obvious... I feel like however, if he had a support network of similar folk, as it seems he does... this is just the way that he learned to communicate empathy in that group. Maybe the way he speaks--yes--could be the way he spoke his entire life, outside of the gestures... but I know a lot of people who speak very similarly and move their shoulders in that manner and are not homosexual.

Anyway I could've written that a lot better with more time and energy to introduce better examples... I hope that it makes sense anyway. I just think too many reasons to explain away the behaviors of what most people consider homosexual... but I did offer non-genetic reasons as to why those groups may interact in similar ways/share similar mannerisms. Comes down to general sociology I guess.

Edit: Added some small, but important, details...

[Northern Monkey]

So maybe it is a mixture of nature and nurture.Many people of both sexualities possibly display these mannerisms etc but many gay people will either show them more or exaggerate them more?
I think that is the gist of the answers.

Edit to add:Great replies in here on what is a very complicated subject:thumbs:

[Smithy]

:laugh: I know gay guys who have perfectly sculptured bodies, are hard-as-nails boxers, karate experts, and similar. They walk, talk and act just normal, but they are gay and proud of it.

I also know a few 'Screaming Queens' too :laugh: So there is no such thing as a 'typical Gay'. :hee:

...ok

[Firewire]

:laugh: Thanks. I always try to have a good sense of humor. So much irony all around us. It keeps things interesting... :laugh:





I would've had that conversation with my child (still childless atm) before that point if I suspected. Just because I don't want to further stigmatize it by walking around it like it is a bigger deal than it really is... my grandmother actually asked me (Southern Baptist of all people--very severe Christianity) once and I think she told me it would be fine, that she could tell me... funny enough, she's a democrat but is also a southern Baptist... still, her step-dad was a Baptist preacher and he did everything with other women and to them that a preacher should never do (he was very abusive). So I guess she learned early on the colors of hypocrisy so to speak... and so it affected her viewpoint.

Still, I've heard people who talk like this. I have some in my circle in IT who speak like this and again, the more intellectual crowd... they don't really subscribe to gender roles as much as other crowds I guess. With my husband's work (law enforcement), there's a lot of macho personalities for sure... but we have some teddy bears too. (And some alcoholics)

Anyway, for this video, his behaviors to me are only clues. Maybe the way he is speaking... like how he is moving his hands, his shoulders are relaxed and he is relating to his father with a lot of focus on openly sharing his emotional viewpoints. Hard to put words to it. It reminds me of when people use hand gestures to relate to each other... those in LGBT have similar hand gestures to communicate meanings and empathy that connects to others in that group. It could also be that is the way he is always presented him, as someone more effeminate... still I don't see that as necessarily meaning someone is homosexual. Again I have a friend who acts like this and it is very similar... so not a smoking gun imho.

Actually, I think that is so common with the younger generations.. straight or gay... but if anyone is hanging around others with the same status, they just pick up subconsciously over time the way his circle interacts and perhaps he picked up those behaviors there...but I feel like his voice and hand gestures, his way of speech... I don't really see it as obvious. I see it as circumstantial.

For example, when I was in my studio design program... I started hanging around snobby art nerds... we started to use the same vocabulary, ways of explaining our ideas, etc... because of things like critique being not optional, but mandatory, having to hang around nudists (read: art models), having to hang up our work for all to see and yet handle a tongue lashing with class.... a lot of barriers had to broken and to make it easier and to show support, we spoke and acted a certain way to engender respect for others of our trade and this is how we learned and modeled our behavior as we got further into the program.

With the LGBT movement, they have to deal with these barriers as well.. so I notice people in those groups, they pick up behaviors that are encouraging others to express--not suppress... and then of course, you have 'display' behaviors to show interest if it's a club setting :smug: (yay clubs)... these are behaviors they herald because it prominently advertises their values of acceptance and open-ness... so this is what they are about. People, whether they have cognitive dissonance about this or not, will often display these values in some manner... even from birth, because they not only live within the context of their identity, but a context of society.

Just like art snobs hang around Starbucks with sketchbooks and laptops all the time... to show that our intellectual mind and our creativity is unchained from the mundane. :laugh: Most of us have been creative all our lives. So I don't know his age, but in my youth, the walls of stigmatism were already crashing down due to years of movement... so it's possible he had already fully acknowledged (i.e. not suppressed really) his identity, if only subconsciously, and moved towards that social collective in that manner.

Generally, and this could be any situation or circumstance, but it is often psychological to 'act out' if you feel overly suppressed by those around you... it's a way to cope with living in this cardboard box called life. You know with little effort you can escape that box... but you are told repeatedly, you will pay some high price if you do. So you stay in, but in the meantime, you are really frustrated with it... so you may act out in smaller ways to cope. My husband's brother had similar issues with it and between the alcohol and manic behavior... this was how he coped. But he was a very successful businessmen otherwise... at least until the alcohol took over his life and ruined that. Edit: Still he didn't start to try to correct that until he came out... then his life kinda hit the bottom, but he did finally start picking up the pieces and is getting his life together again...

Sexuality is so private for most people, so I don't think that most people subconsciously go out of their way to advertise their affections one way or another... but I guess if you had seen the whole episode, it would've looked different to you. But just based on this clip, I don't see it being incredibly obvious... I feel like however, if he had a support network of similar folk, as it seems he does... this is just the way that he learned to communicate empathy in that group. Maybe the way he speaks--yes--could be the way he spoke his entire life, outside of the gestures... but I know a lot of people who speak very similarly and move their shoulders in that manner and are not homosexual.

Anyway I could've written that a lot better with more time and energy to introduce better examples... I hope that it makes sense anyway. I just think too many reasons to explain away the behaviors of what most people consider homosexual... but I did offer non-genetic reasons as to why those groups may interact in similar ways/share similar mannerisms. Comes down to general sociology I guess.

Edit: Added some small, but important, details...

me

[Ammi]

...awwww on the whole I found that vid heart-breaking, how hard it was for him to come out to his parents and knowing their religious views..(I watched the other one with him coming out to his mum as well..)...I think both parents did well considering the depth of their faith and I totally agree with what his dad said 'I didn't want to go where I wasn't invited' because it was always on his son's terms and when his son was ready etc...his sexuality/his decision...but his dad saying it would be hard to accept a partner, eeeeek the pressure of that on his son and another thing that's going to be such a big thing so he hasn't really 'got there' yet and he still has to go through..mum and dad, I've met someone, can we welcome him into our home as a sexual partner and the person I love..:sad:../heart-breaking poor thing...it's all been such an obvious struggle for him as well in the beliefs that he's been brought up with and there must have been much self hate as well I would have thought and for his own self-acceptance and then he's had his friends/family's acceptance to try to overcome as well...so much for a young person who just happens to be a homosexual but the complications/agony of that one small basic thing of sexuality that heterosexual people take for granted and never have to spend any agonising time over in a coming out/just don't have to give any thought to...but equally his dad having his own agony in feeling he knew and waiting for his son to tell him...things like 'recovered homosexual' made me cringe so much but his dad seems like such a good guy and it's all equally hard for him to find the right words, I just wanted him to hug his son, to hold onto him tightly but I think that probably happened off video, it would be nice to think so...and his mum saying that she thought he was going to tell her that he'd met a special lady and feeling that she knew as well but that she's hoped he'd 'got through it' and that she'd been praying for him..no matter how great they are as parents, he's always going to feel that he's let them down just by being who he is, nothing more and that's such a difficult thing for anyone with their parents..that being them is somehow failing the people that we most would never want to fail in any way...

...anyway, no I wouldn't have said that I would have known he was homosexual by anything about him (other than he said he was gay obviously which is a big clue..)...I wouldn't have said with homosexual friends I have either, that I would have known by some sort of 'physical give-away' type thing...straight people can be camp, gay people can be camp and also the opposite of the un-camp thing that Niamh said..those are just a mannerism thing that we can all adopt at certain times and in certain things, just like an 'Essex girl' OMGGGGGGGGGGGGODZZZZZZZZZZ type thing, I think..but don't reflect sexuality but may do for some people..may be an over-exaggerated form of wanting their sexuality to be known and a feeling as though to themselves, it's a huge part of what defines them..?...so adopting a stereotype that will leave no doubt..?...like Shaun I think it was that said, one of my homosexual friends hates the gay/camp stereotype that is often in reality shows such as BB...(I don't think I've ever known him to support the gay on BB, he just switches off from the existence of in a cringe..)../homophobe that he is...

[joeysteele]

I never know who is or not gay, anyway, I neither look for possibilities and anyway couldn't care whether anyone was or was not gay.

I have never seen a one set of behaviour fits all either.
That was a hard video to watch but glad it turned out okay, very sadly because of others expectations and observances, it doesn't always work out that well at times too.

People are people, friends are friends, family are family,what sexual preferences they may prefer, is none of my business unless they choose themselves to reveal same.

[kirklancaster]

me

:laugh::laugh::laugh: And Maru just saved you a whole lot of typing :hee: