Do bi polar use the illness as an excuse to be cruel?

[the truth]

....

[Niamh.]

I can't say I've ever experienced anything like that tbh

[Smithy]

....no?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would imagine there is a temptation, with many disorders, to excuse bad behavoir this way.

[user104658]

As an "excuse"? Difficult question really. Mental disorders will often genuinely make people mistreat others... it's not necessarily an excuse, as in, it's not that they just "wanted to do it" and are falsely claiming that they can't help it. Often, they can't.

On the other hand, that's different from saying that people have to accept hurt and mistreatment just because the person dishing it out has a mental illness or personality disorder. Understanding and accepting the reasons that a person is the way they are, even forgiving them for it, is a good thing... but that doesn't mean you have to keep that person in your life, if they are having a negative impact.

Also there's a world of difference between someone who knows that they have issues that are causing them to mistreat those around them, and when they have more clarity are genuinely sorry for their actions... and someone who thinks that they "don't need to be sorry because they can't help it".

[DemolitionRed]

Being cruel isn’t a characteristic of Bipolar, though she/he could have a personality disorder that co exists with Bipolar. (Bipolar is not a personality disorder)

[Black Dagger]

Yes I'm sure their first thoughts are 'Forget my mental illness, I can get away with abusing the truth x'

[thesheriff443]

Part of the illness could make them think in a way that's considered cruel.
With my daughters autism, she does not show much emotion and some times leave me feeling unloved, but that's just her autistic trait.

[Livia]

I've known a wide range of people be cruel.

[Ashley.]

No.

[Beso]

Nah, if you are in the middle of a mood swing there isnt much you can do about it....interesting question though..
Im sitting next to a sufferer as i type.

[jaxie]

Welcome back Truth.

I don't know any bi polar people so I can't really say tbh but people generally can be cruel.

[Withano]

:joker: they need to get the truth on big brother tbf. What a ridiculous thing to ask.

[AnnieK]

My ex was (is) bi polar. When on a downer he could be awful. Very selfish, spiteful and at times cruel. It goes hand in hand with the illness. Its not intentional but doesn't make it easier to handle.

[Shaun]

Welcome back Truth..

Thankfully just an old thread bumped, he's not back. Raised an eyebrow for sure.

[Beso]

My ex was (is) bi polar. When on a downer he could be awful. Very selfish, spiteful and at times cruel. It goes hand in hand with the illness. Its not intentional but doesn't make it easier to handle.

My partner suffers...funny thing is i prefer her lower mood swings to her hyper ones..

Shes trying to tell me im a trigger.:fist:

[AnnieK]

My partner suffers...funny thing is i prefer her lower mood swings to her hyper ones..

Shes trying to tell me im a trigger.:fist:

Yeah the mania is just as hard. My ex used to be uber fun to be around but would be crazy with it and want to spend money we didn't have to maintain his mood....

I spent my life on egg shells trying to maintain the equilibrium. He is much better now as he is on meds that have stabilised his mood although he feels they have zombified him somewhat

[Beso]

Yeah the mania is just as hard. My ex used to be uber fun to be around but would be crazy with it and want to spend money we didn't have to maintain his mood....

I spent my life on egg shells trying to maintain the equilibrium. He is much better now as he is on meds that have stabilised his mood although he feels they have zombified him somewhat

Was he taking anti phsychotic meds?

I have been informed it will probably be them that zombied him rather than any mood stabilizer.

[AnnieK]

Was he taking anti phsychotic meds?

I have been informed it will probably be them that zombied him rather than any mood stabilizer.

Yeah it is Quitiapine which is anti psychotic I think. He sleeps loads now

[Brillopad]

Welcome back Truth.

I don't know any bi polar people so I can't really say tbh but people generally can be cruel.

Nearly had me there too. It would have been nice to have him back. He was like a fixture here and did make some good points on some issues.

[Beso]

Yeah it is Quitiapine which is anti psychotic I think. He sleeps loads now

Metazapine..in here.

After quituapine made them to drowsy to function..i cant get my head round her illness at all..it is so dibilitating without it looking like it.

[Black Dagger]

My ex is bipolar. We weren't together very long and had some really good times. He blocked me tho to break up with me because his head couldn't handle a relationship. I fortunately never encountered his truly low moments.

[RichardG]

Metazapine..in here.

After quituapine made them to drowsy to function..i cant get my head round her illness at all..it is so dibilitating without it looking like it.

mirtazapine? i was on that for a year, i mean it stopped me killing myself but it made me so fat lol.

[AnnieK]

Metazapine..in here.

After quituapine made them to drowsy to function..i cant get my head round her illness at all..it is so dibilitating without it looking like it.

Indeed parmy, its hard to live with and there is nothing you can do to help so frustrating too.

[AnnieK]

My ex is bipolar. We weren't together very long and had some really good times. He blocked me tho to break up with me because his head couldn't handle a relationship. I fortunately never encountered his truly low moments.

That is one of the hardest things to deal with, the irrational and selfish side of it

[Beso]

Indeed parmy, its hard to live with and there is nothing you can do to help so frustrating too.

It is hard, but worth it.

I am learning, i am usually a blunt and straight to the point person but find myself tippytoeing around her sometimes.


As yet i am not sure if this is to make her life easier or mine.:shrug:

[Twosugars]

mirtazapine? i was on that for a year, i mean it stopped me killing myself but it made me so fat lol.

feel for you, mate, the same here; tried quotiapine and mirtazepine, both give you voracious appetite and I could sleep 20h a day, couldn't cope with all that
they give it for depression now too, that's why I tried them, what about you?

[RichardG]

feel for you, mate, the same here; tried quotiapine and mirtazepine, both give you voracious appetite and I could sleep 20h a day, couldn't cope with all that
they give it for depression now too, that's why I tried them, what about you?

yeah depression and anxiety, kept trying meds for a week or two and then stopping bc of side effects but didn't have much choice in the matter when they stuck me in hospital lmao :worry: don't like how hungry and fat it made me (still excessively hungry 10 months after stopping, seems to have induced some kind of food addiction in me?? idk, but the weight doesn't pile on super easily anymore so there's that) but it does help ur mental health

[Twosugars]

yeah, it does sort your mood out
important thing is you're not suicidal anymore
once you feel better you'll have more will to lose the pounds and before you notice you'll be back to your trim self

[Kizzy]

My ex was (is) bi polar. When on a downer he could be awful. Very selfish, spiteful and at times cruel. It goes hand in hand with the illness. Its not intentional but doesn't make it easier to handle.

I had an ex almost the same, I was with him pre diagnosis a year after we split he came back to explain...and apologise.

I was relieved, I knew then he was ill and not just evil :/

[Redway]

It all started when they gave it that soft name bipolar. You wouldn’t get people who are a bit moody saying they have manic-depressive insanity.

It’s all rooted in misconstrued public perceptions of bipolar.

[Kazanne]

I don't think so,i used to be a nanny in NY to a little girl who grew up with bi polar,she was the lovliest little girl,I found out many years later ,she commited suicide at only 20 years old,she seemed to have everything ,lovely family,lovely home I don't think she ever used hers to be cruel ,it can be a terrible illness.

[Vicky.]

No, but I do think a lot of cruel people BLAME it on mental illnesses. I mean, near every murder claims mental illness in court don't they..

[Twosugars]

I don't know what people think bipolar is, but it is not insanity. Stephen Fry is bipolar, for example.
Afaik, it is depression interspersed with periods of mania, i.e hyperactivity, grand plans etc. (like a opposite of depression),so mood swings both ways.
Of course, bipolar people can suffer from other, co-morbid mental conditions which may or may not include psychosis which is what we commonly think of as insanity, i.e. lack of touch with reality (delusions, voices etc), for example schizophrenia etc
But just bipolar doesn't make you cruel or crazy. Unbalanced - yes: sometimes depressed, sometimes over the top.
Plus bipolar comes in two types, 1 and 2, mild and severe.

[Vicky.]

I thought biploar was basically severe depression. My GP thought I had it at one stage. I am sure it was bipolar he said..

[Twosugars]

it's depression with periods of being kind of, too well, if that makes sense.

[Beso]

Stacey on ee is bipolar.

[Vicky.]

it's depression with periods of being kind of, too well, if that makes sense.

Ah so depression with random times of pretty much euphoria? That sounds like me actually. There does not seem to be any inbetween either.

Currently on duloxetine. Was on mirtazapine but it like totally knocked me out. Been on amitryptaline and notryptaline too, and citalopram. And various other ADs in the past. None seem to make a difference though.

[Twosugars]

Ah so depression with random times of pretty much euphoria? That sounds like me actually. There does not seem to be any inbetween either.

Currently on duloxetine. Was on mirtazapine but it like totally knocked me out. Been on amitryptaline and notryptaline too, and citalopram. And various other ADs in the past. None seem to make a difference though.

you nailed it, Vicky. Depression and euphoria, in cycles.
when you diagnose depression it is always worth checking how patient feels in between depressive episodes, because it can be bipolar even if it is mild form.
Medications are similar, except for bipolar there's also lithium.
Basically it is about stabilising the mood and reducing suffering.
I have depression officially, although experience mild euphoria sometimes and it makes me wonder. Ha quotiapine, mirtazepine (hated them, like you, made me a zombie) plus citalopram and I'm not great on it.
Ketamine is the next new thing. You can either score it from a dealer or go to NHS Oxford, they do a programme, 135 pound per pop. You need a referral from you gp of course. I think the course is 3 pops (as infusions) plus you can ask for some extra if still not quite there.

[Beso]

You should enter the national 2sug..

Do you 2 manage to remember when and what to take?

[Twosugars]

you don't take it all at the same time; they try you on one or two and if it doesn't work, switch to something else

[Redway]

Ah so depression with random times of pretty much euphoria? That sounds like me actually. There does not seem to be any inbetween either.

Currently on duloxetine. Was on mirtazapine but it like totally knocked me out. Been on amitryptaline and notryptaline too, and citalopram. And various other ADs in the past. None seem to make a difference though.


Depression and mania. Mania’s a nice word for insanity but that’s at the extreme end. There’s more emphasis on hypomania (the euphoria you’re talking about) these days but in its hard form it’s all the way up there with schizophrenia.

[Redway]

it's depression with periods of being kind of, too well, if that makes sense.

Acute mania’s a bit more than feeling too well.

[Redway]

I don't know what people think bipolar is, but it is not insanity. Stephen Fry is bipolar, for example.
Afaik, it is depression interspersed with periods of mania, i.e hyperactivity, grand plans etc. (like a opposite of depression),so mood swings both ways.
Of course, bipolar people can suffer from other, co-morbid mental conditions which may or may not include psychosis which is what we commonly think of as insanity, i.e. lack of touch with reality (delusions, voices etc), for example schizophrenia etc
But just bipolar doesn't make you cruel or crazy. Unbalanced - yes: sometimes depressed, sometimes over the top.
Plus bipolar comes in two types, 1 and 2, mild and severe.

A psychosis is just a mental illness in the strict sense of the word. I know the DSM likes to limit it more and more to hallucinations and delusions these days (which are even common in bipolar) but it’s been recognised as a type of insanity for centuries. It’s just that medication’s tampered the natural course of bipolar and there’s more emphasis on mild bipolar these days.

The lucid intervals have always been recognised. I don’t think anyone sees it as a chronic form of insanity but acute mania’s used as the stereotype of a mad person. That’s what bipolar’s like in its severe form.

And it should be said that having schizophrenia and bipolar at the same time is close to impssobile. The psychiatrists who love that hybrid schizoaffective label are usually the ones who are only familiar with the watered down version of bipolar and not manic depression in its serious form.

[Twosugars]

I still think this thread is confused. People talk about bipolar but it sounds like borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia.

[Redway]

I still think this thread is confused. People talk about bipolar but it sounds like borderline personality disorder or schizophrenia.

That’s because it’s on such a broad spectrum. It just pisses me off the way certain people emphasise the mild end of the bipolar spectrum without being aware of the full range. Like I said the older names hint at the real nature of bipolar much better. And it should also be said that there’s other forms of bipolar psychosis that aren’t manic-depressive but that’s not something people who just memorise the DSM and A-Level psychology books know about.

[AnnieK]

My ex was bi polar and was on anti psychotic meds.

[Redway]

https://archive.org/details/manicdepressivei00kraeuoftM

I’m leaving this out here for people who really want to know what classic ‘bipolar’ looks like. The new name doesn’t half trivialise the illness.

[Vicky.]

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[Redway]

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https://archive.org/details/manicdepressivei00krae

It’s a long read but worth it if you want to know the full range of unmedicated manic depression.

[Twosugars]

My ex was bi polar and was on anti psychotic meds.

Antipsychotic meds are used widely these days, including treatment of depression.

[Twosugars]

That’s because it’s on such a broad spectrum. It just pisses me off the way certain people emphasise the mild end of the bipolar spectrum without being aware of the full range. Like I said the older names hint at the real nature of bipolar much better. And it should also be said that there’s other forms of bipolar psychosis that aren’t manic-depressive but that’s not something people who just memorise the DSM and A-Level psychology books know about.

Thank you for the link to Kraepelin book. I see you are old school.
could we talk about it further? Pm or here? Or a new thread about mental health?

[Twosugars]

A psychosis is just a mental illness in the strict sense of the word. I know the DSM likes to limit it more and more to hallucinations and delusions these days (which are even common in bipolar) but it’s been recognised as a type of insanity for centuries. It’s just that medication’s tampered the natural course of bipolar and there’s more emphasis on mild bipolar these days.

The lucid intervals have always been recognised. I don’t think anyone sees it as a chronic form of insanity but acute mania’s used as the stereotype of a mad person. That’s what bipolar’s like in its severe form.

And it should be said that having schizophrenia and bipolar at the same time is close to impssobile. The psychiatrists who love that hybrid schizoaffective label are usually the ones who are only familiar with the watered down version of bipolar and not manic depression in its serious form.

You don't agree with schizoaffective label? Kraepelin himself, whose book you cite, eventually questioned sharp division between schizophrenia and mood disorders and allowed that some cases may fall in between the two.
I dunno, my gut feeling is to treat disorders of affect separately from psychotic symptoms, like I said earlier.
Then again who really knows? As you say, DSM itself keeps on tinkering with the whole system. Probably we don't know yet how to classify things properly.

[Redway]

You don't agree with schizoaffective label? Kraepelin himself, whose book you cite, eventually questioned sharp division between schizophrenia and mood disorders and allowed that some cases may fall in between the two.
I dunno, my gut feeling is to treat disorders of affect separately from psychotic symptoms, like I said earlier.
Then again who really knows? As you say, DSM itself keeps on tinkering with the whole system. Probably we don't know yet how to classify things properly.

That’s where other types of bipolar psychosis and the unsystematic schizophrenias (paraphrenias) come in. A true schizobiopolar mix almost doesn’t exist it’s that rare. 8 time’s out of ten schizoaffective psychosis is a misdiagnosis.

You’ll have to forget all about the DSM and the artificial division between affective and psychotic symptoms. It’s only recently in the DSM that psychosis has been limited to hallucinations and delusions but that’s not the original definition of psychosis or how it works in reality. Like I say a psychosis is just a mental illness in the truest sense of the word. Compared to the neuroses that don’t involve the mental plain directly (just nervous symptoms).

Schizophrenia’s a type of premature dementia. Hallucinations and delusions are just accessory symptoms of a defect syndrome that’s going on in the background and those accessory symptoms are just as common in schizophrenia as they are in other forms of dementia and other psychoses (including bipolar disorder). You’re already going wrong by hyping up the accessory symptoms assuming that hallucinations always point at schizophrenia and nothing else.

Like I say the DSM’s trash. Familiarise yourself with Kraepelin and Leonard.

[michael21]

....

Dont know but it a good question

[Twosugars]

That’s where other types of bipolar psychosis and the unsystematic schizophrenias (paraphrenias) come in. A true schizobiopolar mix almost doesn’t exist it’s that rare. 8 time’s out of ten schizoaffective psychosis is a misdiagnosis.

You’ll have to forget all about the DSM and the artificial division between affective and psychotic symptoms. It’s only recently in the DSM that psychosis has been limited to hallucinations and delusions but that’s not the original definition of psychosis or how it works in reality. Like I say a psychosis is just a mental illness in the truest sense of the word. Compared to the neuroses that don’t involve the mental plain directly (just nervous symptoms).

Schizophrenia’s a type of premature dementia. Hallucinations and delusions are just accessory symptoms of a defect syndrome that’s going on in the background and those accessory symptoms are just as common in schizophrenia as they are in other forms of dementia and other psychoses (including bipolar disorder). You’re already going wrong by hyping up the accessory symptoms assuming that hallucinations always point at schizophrenia and nothing else.

Like I say the DSM’s trash. Familiarise yourself with Kraepelin and Leonard.
I envy your clarity of view and respect your reference to the old greats like Kraepelin and Leonard.
I'm not saying the connections between symptoms that constitute recognized syndromes are incorrect. But I can't help thinking we are still far from certain. It is as if we have a vast tapestry in front of us and are able to see only certain spots on it (syndromes), with some fragments of patterns weaved from different palettes of colours from the spectrums of mood, cognition and behaviour. And we keep on trying to divine the whole tapestry by connecting and reconnecting those spots in different ways. Something which used to be thought of as unipolar depression with brief hypomanic episodes could now be bipolar 2, some ADHD cases may also be reclassified as bipolar 2, schizophrenia could be bipolar 1 with psychotic features, BPD+dysthymia could be bipolar 2.
I know it's not practical or accepted, bofore or now, but I still prefer to separate the visible threads of the pattern if that makes sense.
edit: having said all that, I love when you mention schizophrenia as premature dementia.

[Redway]

I envy your clarity of view and respect your reference to the old greats like Kraepelin and Leonard.
I'm not saying the connections between symptoms that constitute recognized syndromes are incorrect. But I can't help thinking we are still far from certain. It is as if we have a vast tapestry in front of us and are able to see only certain spots on it (syndromes), with some fragments of patterns weaved from different palettes of colours from the spectrums of mood, cognition and behaviour. And we keep on trying to divine the whole tapestry by connecting and reconnecting those spots in different ways. Something which used to be thought of as unipolar depression with brief hypomanic episodes could now be bipolar 2, some ADHD cases may also be reclassified as bipolar 2, schizophrenia could be bipolar 1 with psychotic features, BPD+dysthymia could be bipolar 2.
I know it's not practical or accepted, bofore or now, but I still prefer to separate the visible threads of the pattern if that makes sense.
edit: having said all that, I love when you mention schizophrenia as premature dementia.

Mhm. I get what you're saying but borderline's borderline. Nothing like bipolar manic depression in spite of all the stereotypes.

Depression with even the slightest manic touch is on the manic-depressive spectrum. Some psychotic depressions are closed off by sharp boundaries but there's never any such thing as unipolar depression with "brief" hypomania. That's something that always points at bipolar no matter how brief the abnormal highs are. So long as there's potential for swinging to the other pole it's always bipolar. No matter how mild or brief the reversals are.