5000 migrants have been drowned

[Cherie]

Trying to get to Europe this year, the highest figure ever :sad:

A migrant waits to disembark from the rescue vessel Responder,Image copyrightREUTERS
Image caption
An average of 14 migrants are drowning in the Mediterranean every day
Migrant crisis

The number of undocumented migrants who drown in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe has reached 5,000, the highest annual total yet, the UN says.
The latest figures, released by the UN's refugee agency, include 100 deaths reported on Thursday after two rubber dinghies sank off Italy.
The increase was down to bad weather, ever riskier boats and tactics to avoid detection, a spokesman said.
The UN said Europe should organise legal ways for refugees to find safety.
Spokesman William Spindler said the increase in deaths was "alarming" and the smugglers' practice of sending thousands of migrants off at the same time made it difficult for rescuers of save them all.
Anatomy of a shipwreck
Why is Italy seeing record numbers?
A haven from killings and kidnaps
Almost 360,000 migrants entered Europe by sea this year, mostly arriving in Italy and Greece, the International Organization for Migration (IOM) said.
Migrants on rubber boat before being rescued off the Libyan coast in the Mediterranean Sea, on November 3, 2016.Image copyrightAFP
Image caption
Migrants are being put to sea on increasingly flimsy boats, the UN says
The record number of deaths means an average of 14 people are drowning in the Mediterranean every day despite the overall number of people making the crossing declining.
Most have perished on the dangerous crossing from North Africa to Italy after the shorter crossing from Turkey to Greece was closed off earlier this year.
The UN said legal routes for refugees to reach Europe should include resettlement and family reunification programmes as well as private sponsorship and student scholarships to prevent refugees from resorting to the use of people smugglers.
Just under 3,800 migrants died in the Mediterranean in 2015, according to IOM figures.
A note on terminology: The BBC uses the term migrant to refer to all people on the move who have yet to complete the legal process of claiming asylum. This group includes people fleeing war-torn countries such as Syria, who are likely to be granted refugee status, as well as people who are seeking jobs and better lives, who governments are likely to rule are economic migrants.

[Cherie]

The people traffickers are the only ones gaining

[arista]

The people traffickers are the only ones gaining


Yes they need to be Killed.

[arista]

"who governments are likely
to rule are economic migrants."


Not Libya
they are now split into 3 tribes
and Isis among them.

[DemolitionRed]

"who governments are likely
to rule are economic migrants."


Not Libya
they are now split into 3 tribes
and Isis among them.

I always feel like I've been educated after reading such informative posts. There was me thinking Syria had 9 groups. Thanks for putting me right.

P.S What are these three tribes called?

[Tom4784]

Sadly very little sympathy will be afforded them until a picture of a dead child washing up on the beach pops up again and even then that will only be good for a few weeks of empathy at best until they are basically considered subhuman again.

The lack of empathy towards what is a terrible plight is deeply unsettling, more should be done to relieve the refugee crisis, especially since we've played a role in why there's so many refugees fleeing the middle east in the first place.

[arista]

I always feel like I've been educated after reading such informative posts. There was me thinking Syria had 9 groups. Thanks for putting me right.

P.S What are these three tribes called?


Even worse more than 9 Groups, now
the 3 tribes that are trying to run Libya
with Isis in there.

I will not name the Punks
its nation stuck Civil War
after France / UK left them.

[Kizzy]

Sadly very little sympathy will be afforded them until a picture of a dead child washing up on the beach pops up again and even then that will only be good for a few weeks of empathy at best until they are basically considered subhuman again.

The lack of empathy towards what is a terrible plight is deeply unsettling, more should be done to relieve the refugee crisis, especially since we've played a role in why there's so many refugees fleeing the middle east in the first place.

Hey!! we'll have less of that, otherwise I'll have to send bojo round to sing 'Ode to joy' to you in German to remind you how important it is not to diss Britain.

[jennyjuniper]

It is tragic that so many people lose their lives, but I still think it's even more tragic that the situation in their respective countries becomes so dire that they need to flee. Surely, even if only from an economic point of view, it would be better to try to help them to live well in their own countries? After all what is NATO for if not to help other lands not to be ruled by despots.
I still wonder why so many try to get to Europe, when (if they are a muslim country, as so many seem to be) they would surely find a much warmer welcome and easier travel to other muslim countries?

[Brillopad]

Sadly very little sympathy will be afforded them until a picture of a dead child washing up on the beach pops up again and even then that will only be good for a few weeks of empathy at best until they are basically considered subhuman again.

The lack of empathy towards what is a terrible plight is deeply unsettling, more should be done to relieve the refugee crisis, especially since we've played a role in why there's so many refugees fleeing the middle east in the first place.

Sanctimonious rubbish. The prime concern of genuine refugees is safety for themselves and their families. These people are choosing to bypass closer safe countries to head for Europe in search of a 'better life' which actually makes them economic migrants rather than refugees. It's the children I feel sorry for because they have no choice.

Being idealistic when you're young is easy, but seeing the bigger picture of the negative effects this has on people in Europe matters. People in Britain for example are actually dying because of the demand and pressure put on the health system by this mass migration which denies them access to the services they need when they need it, something constantly and conveniently ignored by the sanctimonious supporters of mass migration. And that is just one issue.

It seems the distinction between 'refugee' and 'migrant' needs to be made because some keep ignoring it an an attempt to tug at peoples' heart strings and lay a guilt trip on them.

[Nicky91]

they should just stay in their own countries :mad:

[Northern Monkey]

Sanctimonious rubbish. The prime concern of genuine refugees is safety for themselves and their families. These people are choosing to bypass closer safe countries to head for Europe in search of a 'better life' which actually makes them economic migrants rather than refugees. It's the children I feel sorry for because they have no choice.

Being idealistic when you're young is easy, but seeing the bigger picture of the negative effects this has on people in Europe matters. People in Britain for example are actually dying because of the demand and pressure put on the health system by this mass migration which denies them access to the services they need when they need it, something constantly and conveniently ignored by the sanctimonious supporters of mass migration. And that is just one issue.

It seems the distinction between 'refugee' and 'migrant' needs to be made because some keep ignoring it an an attempt to tug at peoples' heart strings and lay a guilt trip on them.:clap1:
Totally agree.

[Jessica.]

they should just stay in their own countries :mad:
How progressive.

[arista]

they should just stay in their own countries :mad:


Sure if they are from Iran , Iraq, and a few other nations.


But Not from Syria
their kids to join Evil Isis
or Die under a Massive Russian Bomb.

Everyone know that as Real Truth

[DemolitionRed]

Many people have insulated themselves from the very real refugee crisis…terrible but no great surprise.
Far right and hard liners who believe illegal immigrants only take the risk because they want a free ride from the taxpayer for life and who scoff and refuse to listen when you try and explain that they are in fact escaping the ensuing chaos and terror of their home land.

Why don’t they stay in the first safe country? Most of them do. Turkey is deemed the first safe country for Syrians to reach and Turkey already hosts over 3 million refugees but the refugees in Turkey are refused work permits and only 45% of the children are getting any form of education. There’s a further million in Lebanon and 1.5 million in Saudi Arabia. Qatar and Oman. Another 800,00 in Egypt and Jordan. The people fleeing to Britain are merely a trickle in comparison to these other countries.

The UK will always be an attractive place to people fleeing war, persecution, poverty and starvation but for this problem to be resolved; gleefully uninformed sanctimonious finger pointing is the first thing that needs to stop.

Instead of having an extraordinarily harsh response to refugees, try having a little compassion (it is Christmas after all).

[Brillopad]

Many people have insulated themselves from the very real refugee crisis…terrible but no great surprise.
Far right and hard liners who believe illegal immigrants only take the risk because they want a free ride from the taxpayer for life and who scoff and refuse to listen when you try and explain that they are in fact escaping the ensuing chaos and terror of their home land.

Why don’t they stay in the first safe country? Most of them do. Turkey is deemed the first safe country for Syrians to reach and Turkey already hosts over 3 million refugees but the refugees in Turkey are refused work permits and only 45% of the children are getting any form of education. There’s a further million in Lebanon and 1.5 million in Saudi Arabia. Qatar and Oman. Another 800,00 in Egypt and Jordan. The people fleeing to Britain are merely a trickle in comparison to these other countries.

The UK will always be an attractive place to people fleeing war, persecution, poverty and starvation but for this problem to be resolved; gleefully uninformed sanctimonious finger pointing is the first thing that needs to stop.

Instead of having an extraordinarily harsh response to refugees, try having a little compassion (it is Christmas after all).

Nothing said above changes anything and attempting to label people as far-right for giving priority to their own is just distraction tactics and a good example of why an amicable disagreement on this subject will likely never be achieved.

Some people give priority to economic migrants whilst others give priority to people in need in their own countries. As, in particular, the views of the former have considerable impact on those the latter support it will only likely serve to harden their resolve.

For many of us charity begins at home, especially as these people do have other options. Many of those coming in attempting to claim 'refugee' status are not even from war-torn Syria but from parts of Africa or Afhganistan and don't meet the criteria for such status. Like it or not many are taking the pee and we don't have the pockets or the inclination to accommodate them.

[Withano]

Nothing said above changes anything and attempting to label people as far-right for giving priority to their own is just distraction tactics and a good example of why an amicable disagreement on this subject will likely never be achieved.

Some people give priority to economic migrants whilst others give priority to people in need in their own countries. As, in particular, the views of the former have considerable impact on those the latter support it will only likely serve to harden their resolve.

For many of us charity begins at home, especially as these people do have other options. Many of those coming in attempting to claim 'refugee' status are not even from war-torn Syria but from parts of Africa or Afhganistan and don't meet the criteria for such status. Like it or not many are taking the pee and we don't have the pockets or the inclination to accommodate them.

This is a thread about 5000 deaths, can you not go off on a tangent about how little you can for them.
(Right wing people tend to care for them, the far-right are less progressive)

[Brillopad]

This is a thread about 5000 deaths, can you not go off on a tangent about how little you can for them.
(Right wing people tend to care for them, the far-right are less progressive)

Maybe you need to care more about your own and their need to be cared about.

It works both ways so no gold star for taking the moral high ground. :wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

Nothing said above changes anything and attempting to label people as far-right for giving priority to their own is just distraction tactics and a good example of why an amicable disagreement on this subject will likely never be achieved.

Some people give priority to economic migrants whilst others give priority to people in need in their own countries. As, in particular, the views of the former have considerable impact on those the latter support it will only likely serve to harden their resolve.

For many of us charity begins at home, especially as these people do have other options. Many of those coming in attempting to claim 'refugee' status are not even from war-torn Syria but from parts of Africa or Afhganistan and don't meet the criteria for such status. Like it or not many are taking the pee and we don't have the pockets or the inclination to accommodate them.

The real meaning of “charity begins at home” is, “children learn about being charitable in the home they are raised in”.

Britain ruled half the world until 70 years ago - whilst you may of washed your hands of that legacy, I haven't. How about we give back all the wealth we extracted before we claim other countries troubles are nothing to do with us.

[DemolitionRed]

Maybe you need to care more about your own and their need to be cared about.

It works both ways so no gold star for taking the moral high ground. :wavey:

Are you suggesting we care more for these refugees than we care for our own near and dear ones? Or are you suggesting there isn’t enough care to go round?

Just unbelievable

[Brillopad]

Are you suggesting we care more for these refugees than we care for our own near and dear ones? Or are you suggesting there isn’t enough care to go round?

Just unbelievable

Just as it was suggested myself and others don't care about genuine refugees, I am suggesting that those making such allegations don't care about those in this country that need help as much as they do about the migrants.

Clearly there isn't enough care to go around or are you unaware of the crisis in the NHS and other public services.

[Brillopad]

The real meaning of “charity begins at home” is, “children learn about being charitable in the home they are raised in”.

Britain ruled half the world until 70 years ago - whilst you may of washed your hands of that legacy, I haven't. How about we give back all the wealth we extracted before we claim other countries troubles are nothing to do with us.

Good for you. As I said I believe charity begins at home and as taking in so many has a significant impact on them that's where my main concern lies.

[DemolitionRed]

Just as it was suggested myself and others don't care about genuine refugees, I am suggesting that those making such allegations don't care about those in this country that need help as much as they do about the migrants.

How does that logic work?

All I have to go on is ‘impression’ and you have given me the impression that you believe there’s far too many refugees and immigrants (including genuine ones) living or trying to get into this country.

Just as I have to accept some British opinion is going to border on being hateful, you must accept that some of us will have a lot more empathy and tolerance with those trying to flee war torn areas.

I do believe that Merkel’s unilateral open-borders policy was counter-productive. Allowing such a large influx of people in without going through adequate checks was bound to miss the criminals. What those criminals have done is tarnish the word “refugee” and the only people who have gained from that are the far right.

What we have is tolerance and goodwill versus religious hatred and wilful ignorance. Which side are you choosing?


Clearly there isn't enough care to go around or are you unaware of the crisis in the NHS and other public services.

I’m pretty sure you have read my past posts about the NHS.

The flailing NHS is one of the most contentious subjects out there. The Daily Mail takes first prize for that juicy bit of confirmation bias about immigrants throwing the NHS into untold financial pressure.

Between 2014-2016 estimated additional costs for immigrants runs at £160 million which sounds like a lot until you realize that rising costs and wages in that same period cost the NHS an additional £2.8 billion, new technology and expanded treatment cost the NHS an additional £1.6 billion and people growing older had cost the NHS an additional £1.4 billion.

The question you should be asking is, are immigrants taking more out of the system than putting in? keep in mind that a large percentage of immigrants pay tax.

Research it yourself through the proper channels. The answer may surprise you.

[Brillopad]

How does that logic work?

All I have to go on is ‘impression’ and you have given me the impression that you believe there’s far too many refugees and immigrants (including genuine ones) living or trying to get into this country.

Just as I have to accept some British opinion is going to border on being hateful, you must accept that some of us will have a lot more empathy and tolerance with those trying to flee war torn areas.

I do believe that Merkel’s unilateral open-borders policy was counter-productive. Allowing such a large influx of people in without going through adequate checks was bound to miss the criminals. What those criminals have done is tarnish the word “refugee” and the only people who have gained from that are the far right.

What we have is tolerance and goodwill versus religious hatred and wilful ignorance. Which side are you choosing?



I’m pretty sure you have read my past posts about the NHS.

The flailing NHS is one of the most contentious subjects out there. The Daily Mail takes first prize for that juicy bit of confirmation bias about immigrants throwing the NHS into untold financial pressure.

Between 2014-2016 estimated additional costs for immigrants runs at £160 million which sounds like a lot until you realize that rising costs and wages in that same period cost the NHS an additional £2.8 billion, new technology and expanded treatment cost the NHS an additional £1.6 billion and people growing older had cost the NHS an additional £1.4 billion.

The question you should be asking is, are immigrants taking more out of the system than putting in? keep in mind that a large percentage of immigrants pay tax.

Research it yourself through the proper channels. The answer may surprise you.

Tolerance and goodwill are constantly abused. As a country we give a lot in foreign aid but something has to give. We cannot also keep taking in people at this rate and putting up with the negative effects of that on our society.

If you are constantly going to accuse anyone who disagrees with your opinions on this as belonging to the 'far-right' (in effect playground Namecalling) then quite frankly it's pointless arguing the toss with you.

Are immigrants taking out more than they put in - I and many others believe they are. I'm sure those in a position to categorically disprove this would do so as it would help their cause. I await such an outcome with interest and scepticism.

[DemolitionRed]

Tolerance and goodwill are constantly abused. As a country we give a lot in foreign aid but something has to give. We cannot also keep taking in people at this rate and putting up with the negative effects of that on our society.

If you are constantly going to accuse anyone who disagrees with your opinions on this as belonging to the 'far-right' (in effect playground Namecalling) then quite frankly it's pointless arguing the toss with you.

Are immigrants taking out more than they put in - I and many others believe they are. I'm sure those in a position to categorically disprove this would do so as it would help their cause. I await such an outcome with interest and scepticism.


That last paragraph proves that you only believe what you want to believe and for the same reason, you believe I'm accusing you of being far right. :shrug:

[anne666]

It is tragic that so many people lose their lives, but I still think it's even more tragic that the situation in their respective countries becomes so dire that they need to flee. Surely, even if only from an economic point of view, it would be better to try to help them to live well in their own countries? After all what is NATO for if not to help other lands not to be ruled by despots.
I still wonder why so many try to get to Europe, when (if they are a muslim country, as so many seem to be) they would surely find a much warmer welcome and easier travel to other muslim countries?

The vast majority of refugees are hosted by their neighbouring countries though. Most of them are Muslim countries, like Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey and much poorer than European countries.
Aid agencies are grossly underfunded and there's nowhere left for many refugees to go, apart from risking their lives further by travelling to Europe. The EU were warned by UNHCR and others of the deteriorating situation around 3 years ago and they ignored it then instead spent inestimable billions in the wrong place, Europe and thousands have drowned and will continue to drown.
Germany's economic future is under serious threat because of their fertility rate, the lowest in the world. They need young fit and preferably fertile new workers at the rate of 500,000 annually! If other EU countries hadn't stopped their quest the inadequate Turkey deal would never have happened.

[anne666]

Sanctimonious rubbish. The prime concern of genuine refugees is safety for themselves and their families. These people are choosing to bypass closer safe countries to head for Europe in search of a 'better life' which actually makes them economic migrants rather than refugees. It's the children I feel sorry for because they have no choice.

Being idealistic when you're young is easy, but seeing the bigger picture of the negative effects this has on people in Europe matters. People in Britain for example are actually dying because of the demand and pressure put on the health system by this mass migration which denies them access to the services they need when they need it, something constantly and conveniently ignored by the sanctimonious supporters of mass migration. And that is just one issue.

It seems the distinction between 'refugee' and 'migrant' needs to be made because some keep ignoring it an an attempt to tug at peoples' heart strings and lay a guilt trip on them.

Yes there are piss taking economic migrants from countries where they aren't under life threatening danger or which have safe areas. Which refugees are you talking about and which safe countries do they have to flee to?

[user104658]

This "first safe country" idea is utter nonsense. The nearby countries don't have the resources to keep these people alive... ... is the argument that once they are safe from being shot or blown up, they should be content to quietly starve to death?

[Brillopad]

This "first safe country" idea is utter nonsense. The nearby countries don't have the resources to keep these people alive... ... is the argument that once they are safe from being shot or blown up, they should be content to quietly starve to death?

There are plenty of safe countries where they won't 'starve to death' before getting to Britain. Safe countries that don't have such a generous welfare system!

People are hungry/starving in many parts of the world are we supposed to take them all in?

[Brillopad]

Yes there are piss taking economic migrants from countries where they aren't under life threatening danger or which have safe areas. Which refugees are you talking about and which safe countries do they have to flee to?

That depends because if they make a beeline for the wealthier Western countries they are not genuine refugees but economic migrants.

[user104658]

There are plenty of safe countries where they won't 'starve to death' before getting to Britain. Safe countries that don't have such a generous welfare system!

People are hungry/starving in many parts of the world are we supposed to take them all in?
We're not "supposed" to do anything, obviously it's not economically viable to take in every struggling family in the world, but blaming THEM for wanting it is ridiculous. Anyone in this country who claims that, in the same situation, they wouldn't do the same is straight up lying :shrug:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Australia had this problem and they solved it

[Brillopad]

Australia had this problem and they solved it

Probably because they didn't allow themselves to be brow-beaten into submission to the politically correct. Great nation.

[Kizzy]

Australia has a solid history of abuses, look what they did to their indigenous population, look also what they did to the orphans we sent after WW2.
Does anyone else worry that we are moving away from countries where human rights are respected to those where they aren't?
If not, why not, is it because we believe some people are not human?...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Australia has a solid history of abuses, look what they did to their indigenous population, look also what they did to the orphans we sent after WW2.
Does anyone else worry that we are moving away from countries where human rights are respected to those where they aren't?
If not, why not, is it because we believe some people are not human?...

wait

what?

who is talking about abuses?

what are you calling out Australia about?

[DemolitionRed]

Probably because they didn't allow themselves to be brow-beaten into submission to the politically correct. Great nation.

Oh come on, this site you and I are using has to be one of the most politically correct forums in the western world!

[DemolitionRed]

Australia had this problem and they solved it

No surprise there...Australia has to be one of the most nationalist countries I’ve ever had the misfortune of visiting.

[Kizzy]

Here is a good article it explains why many in this nation aren't as affected by tragedy overseas, well ones we had a hand in anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/26/the-guardian-view-on-the-colonial-past-a-german-lesson-for-britain

[Crimson Dynamo]

Here is a good article it explains why many in this nation aren't as affected by tragedy overseas, well ones we had a hand in anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/26/the-guardian-view-on-the-colonial-past-a-german-lesson-for-britain

hi

do you have any other sources that are not the guardian or new statesman or the canary?

[Crimson Dynamo]

No surprise there...Australia has to be one of the most nationalist countries I’ve ever had the misfortune of visiting.

yes it has a reputation for being a vile mess

:umm2:

[Kizzy]

hi

do you have any other sources that are not the guardian or new statesman or the canary?

I don't quote the new statesman, it isn't available to reference anywhere else.
You are not obliged to read it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

so no

[Brillopad]

No surprise there...Australia has to be one of the most nationalist countries I’ve ever had the misfortune of visiting.

And one of the most successful and desirable places to live. It looks after its own and everyone wants a piece of it.

[Tom4784]

Sanctimonious rubbish. The prime concern of genuine refugees is safety for themselves and their families. These people are choosing to bypass closer safe countries to head for Europe in search of a 'better life' which actually makes them economic migrants rather than refugees. It's the children I feel sorry for because they have no choice.

Being idealistic when you're young is easy, but seeing the bigger picture of the negative effects this has on people in Europe matters. People in Britain for example are actually dying because of the demand and pressure put on the health system by this mass migration which denies them access to the services they need when they need it, something constantly and conveniently ignored by the sanctimonious supporters of mass migration. And that is just one issue.

It seems the distinction between 'refugee' and 'migrant' needs to be made because some keep ignoring it an an attempt to tug at peoples' heart strings and lay a guilt trip on them.


Rationalisation is always healthy.

[Brillopad]

Rationalisation is always healthy.

Distraction tactics.