USA:bakers who refused to do a Lesbian Cake got find $135,000

[arista]

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1435875220362.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
This went down in 2013
Oregon
has Fined them so much they have Closed Down
They are like Ireland
who also refused to do a Same Sex Cake.
Its on their Religion Values.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/04/oregon-bakery-same-sex-marriage-lawsuit

They were on Tucker Carlson's
show last night ,USA time.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html



I am not into a Church
But I like Fresh Cakes.

[Withano]

Thats good then.

[Withano]

If your religion advices you to discriminate, you should expect to get fined imo. You should probably avoid public service if discriminating against certain groups means that much to you.

[Toy Soldier]

I wish I could find $135000. Or $135. Or $13.5

...or $1 :bawling:

[Withano]

I wish I could find $135000. Or $135. Or $13.5

...or $1 :bawling:

Brexit is gonna make us all billionaires any second now, dont you worry.

[LeatherTrumpet]

These gay cakes are ruining small business and MUST be stopped

[Withano]

Also, thats a stupid name for a shop. Obviously the cakes are sweet.

[arista]

If your religion advices you to discriminate, you should expect to get fined imo. You should probably avoid public service if discriminating against certain groups means that much to you.


They do not view it like that Withano
They just say its a Man and Woman only.


They would serve anyone
but no Special Wedding Cakes for Lesbos.



Please Note: there is nothing at all wrong
with being a Lesbo.

[Cal.]

Karma!

[Withano]

They do not view it like that Withano
They just say its a Man and Woman only.


They would serve anyone
but no Special Wedding Cakes for Lesbos.



Please Note: there is nothing at all wrong
with being a Lesbo.

If there was nothing wrong with being a lesbo, they they would get sold cake. Thats where their discrimination comes in. They clearly feel differently to you and I. And they should have always avoided public service if they were not prepared to serve the public.

[arista]

Also, thats a stupid name for a shop. Obviously the cakes are sweet.


I do not agree
Sweet Cakes is fine,
I would enter that to buy a nice fruit cake

[arista]

If there was nothing wrong with being a lesbo, they they would get sold cake. Thats where their discrimination comes in. They clearly feel differently to you and I. And they should have always avoided public service if they were not prepared to serve the public.

Yes but this is what Ireland is like , as well.

That Shop sold to everyone that went in
but a wedding cake can only be a man and women
thats the way they were brought up.

I would advise that Couple to buy it in another store,
I mean that Shop closed
as that Fine was SO HIGH

[arista]

These gay cakes are ruining small business and MUST be stopped


You are Right LT
many small shops are picked by Activists

[Withano]

Yes but this is what Ireland is like , as well.

That Shop sold to everyone that went in
but a wedding cake can only be a man and women
thats the way they were brought up.

I would advise that Couple to buy it in another store,
I mean that Shop closed
as that Fine was SO HIGH

One shop in Ireland is not representative of the country.
If shop owners are not prepared to serve the public, they should avoid public service. It is that simple.

[arista]

One shop in Ireland is not representative of the country.
If shop owners are not prepared to serve the public, they should avoid public service. It is that simple.


But it Tells you
that this is a Problem all over the place.


They Serve All The Public
but wedding cakes can only
be a man and a women
thats all they did.

[Ronald.]

What on earth is a lesbian cake?? R.

[Withano]

But it Tells you
that this is a Problem all over the place.


They Serve All The Public
but wedding cakes can only
be a man and a women
thats all they did.

You do not serve all of the public if there are 'ifs and buts'. The 'ifs and buts' should get you fined.
If someone refused to serve your friend based on their age, your neighbour based on their ethnicity, or your distant cousin based on their gender... I'd expect to see them fined too.
Any shop refusing any service to any person based on any belief is wrong.
If you are not willing to serve the public, do not go in to public service. It is still that simple.

[thesheriff443]

These gay cakes are ruining small business and MUST be stopped

This post is like a bad cake, its flat because you cant get it to rise.

[Ronald.]

You do not serve all of the public if there are 'ifs and buts'. The 'ifs and buts' should get you fined.
If someone refused to serve your friend based on their age, your neighbour based on their ethnicity, or your distant cousin based on their gender... I'd expect to see them fined too.
Any shop refusing any service to any person based on any belief is wrong.
If you are not willing to serve the public, do not go in to public service. It is still that simple.

I couldn't agree any more. They're giving the lesbians a cake, not an orgasm. Like God is gonna send you to hell for icing a nice lesbian message. R.

[the truth]

I like lesbianism

[thesheriff443]

What on earth is a lesbian cake?? R.

Its got dildos instead of candles.
Me and lesbians got a lot in common we both love pussy.

[Ronald.]

Its got dildos instead of candles.
Me and lesbians got a lot in common we both love pussy.

I had a nice victoria yesterday. Wonder if she was a lesbian one. R.

[thesheriff443]

What on earth is a lesbian cake?? R.

I had a nice victoria yesterday. Wonder if she was a lesbian one. R.

No its just a cake.

[Withano]

I couldn't agree any more. They're giving the lesbians a cake, not an orgasm. .

:joker:
Best post ever

[Toy Soldier]

Also, thats a stupid name for a shop. Obviously the cakes are sweet.
Their two competitors, "Salty Cakes" and "Bland Cakes", didn't trade for very long.

[thesheriff443]

Later today I'm having banoffee pie that come a 80 miles away.

[LeatherTrumpet]

and sweet cakes is a male innuendo anyroad so God likes casual sexism but not actual love?

[arista]

This post is like a bad cake, its flat because you cant get it to rise.


But lots of Fresh Fruit in it

[thesheriff443]

But lots of Fresh Fruit in it

Its absolutely the best.

[Ronald.]

Its absolutely the best.

Love fruit cake yummy. R.

[Niamh.]

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1435875220362.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
This went down in 2013
Oregon
has Fined them so much they have Closed Down
They are like Ireland
who also refused to do a Same Sex Cake.
Its on their Religion Values.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/04/oregon-bakery-same-sex-marriage-lawsuit

They were on Tucker Carlson's
show last night ,USA time.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html



I am not into a Church
But I like Fresh Cakes.

Northern Ireland*

Here in the republic we voted Gay marriage in :hee:

[AnnieK]

She is a strong, confident woman, who does not needs to smoke. A strooong, confident woman... who does not need to smoke.

:laugh: can't beat a friends quote

[LeatherTrumpet]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2878586/original.jpg

[LeatherTrumpet]

http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width960/img/oregonian/photo/2015/08/20/kleins-cake-2jpg-78d99712a83e0e23.jpg

[LeatherTrumpet]

Sweet Cakes supporters raised more than half a million dollars for the bakers. The Kleins, backed by the former White House counsel for George H.W. Bush, filed an appeal in April. Oral arguments are expected later this year.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/10/sweet_cakes_by_melissa_bakery.html


The lord taketh away, the lord giveth

[Niamh.]

Sweet Cakes supporters raised more than half a million dollars for the bakers. The Kleins, backed by the former White House counsel for George H.W. Bush, filed an appeal in April. Oral arguments are expected later this year.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/10/sweet_cakes_by_melissa_bakery.html


The lord taketh away, the lord giveth

Have you found the Lord LT? :laugh:

[LeatherTrumpet]

Have you found the Lord LT? :laugh:

I havent even found my glasses

[Niamh.]

I havent even found my glasses

:laugh:

[Tom4784]

If you're gonna run a business then you can't discriminate against your clientele, People that use their religion as an excuse to justify their prejudice deserve to go out of business if they pull **** like this.

[LeatherTrumpet]

So far they made a $365,000 profit from one cake

That's good business

[Niamh.]

So far they made a $365,000 profit from one cake

That's good business

The money doesn't bother me, i wouldn't like to see anyone going bankrupt especially with so many kids to look after. The important thing is that the Law set a nice precedent with this and have said you can't use your religion to discriminate against people if you're running a business so everyone wins

[LeatherTrumpet]

anything to erode religion from business, education and law is a good thing

[VanessaFeltz.]

Good riddance
Why do they give so much **** about what cake are they doing?

[Niamh.]

anything to erode religion from business, education and law is a good thing

Yeah, absolutely, what people do in their own time is their business but it shouldn't have a place in those examples you gave

[Deirdre]

wow easy way to make 135k. I'll go somewhere south of America with my girlfriend, ask for a cake and hope they call us dirty dykes. Not saying that's what happened obviously but easily it could.

[King Gizzard]

Nice

[Vicky.]

I couldn't agree any more. They're giving the lesbians a cake, not an orgasm. Like God is gonna send you to hell for icing a nice lesbian message. R.

Genuinely laughed at this :D

[ebandit]

Good riddance
Why do they give so much **** about what cake are they doing?

.........and why did the person requesting the cake make such

a big deal of it? plenty of other bakers

Mark L

[Ronald.]

.........and why did the person requesting the cake make such

a big deal of it? plenty of other bakers

Mark L

It's the principle though Mark L. Not nice to feel discriminated against. R.

[Niamh.]

It's the principle though Mark L. Not nice to feel discriminated against. R.

Exactly.

[LeatherTrumpet]

I would imagine most women feel that way when they go to buy a car. The TL and I were looking at cars and on 2 occasions the salesman just spoke and looked at me despite him not knowing who the car was for. I never noticed as I was talking cars :hee: but the TL was cross

:worry:

[Niamh.]

I would imagine most women feel that way when they go to buy a car. The TL and I were looking at cars and on 2 occasions the salesman just spoke and looked at me despite him not knowing who the car was for. I never noticed as I was talking cars :hee: but the TL was cross

:worry:

Last time I bought a car was 4 years ago and that definitely didn't happen to me, if it did I would say something, that kind of s**t would bother me too much not to say something :laugh: The guy I bought the car off was a lovely fella actually

[Toy Soldier]

I would imagine most women feel that way when they go to buy a car. The TL and I were looking at cars and on 2 occasions the salesman just spoke and looked at me despite him not knowing who the car was for. I never noticed as I was talking cars :hee: but the TL was cross

:worry:
Yep, that happened with me and th'lady and our first car... Neither of us had driven before, she learned to drive first so I couldn't even drive. It was a joint purchase but she chose the car, she was the named driver for it... Salesman didn't break eye contact with ME the whole time we were buying it :joker:.

Hashtag everydaysexism.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Last time I bought a car was 4 years ago and that definitely didn't happen to me, if it did I would say something, that kind of s**t would bother me too much not to say something :laugh: The guy I bought the car off was a lovely fella actually

not neem being smooth talked and sold a lemon with no discount:hehe:

[Ronald.]

I went to buy some flowers the other day and the florist assumed they were for my wife. She said "Birthday, anniversary, or in the dog house?" Can't a man brighten up his living room without such sexism! Ha ha ha R.

[LeatherTrumpet]

I went to buy some flowers the other day and the florist assumed they were for my wife. She said "Birthday, anniversary, or in the dog house?" Can't a man brighten up his living room without such sexism! Ha ha ha R.

Ron :nono:, you have gone too far

Flowers are for girls - dont try and break the system

[Niamh.]

not neem being smooth talked and sold a lemon with no discount:hehe:

Runs like a dream still and he wasn't a smooth talker, he was actually quite normal for a salesman and I deal with plenty of them everyday in my line of work :hee:

[Liberty4eva]

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1435875220362.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
This went down in 2013
Oregon
has Fined them so much they have Closed Down
They are like Ireland
who also refused to do a Same Sex Cake.
Its on their Religion Values.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/04/oregon-bakery-same-sex-marriage-lawsuit

They were on Tucker Carlson's
show last night ,USA time.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html



I am not into a Church
But I like Fresh Cakes.

When people have a right to other people's services, you no longer live in a free country. :(

[Toy Soldier]

When people have a right to other people's services, you no longer live in a free country. :(
I do hate to say that I actually agree with this; even though I find their actions abhorrent. They should simply let other locals know how they were treated and let them vote with their feet. In general I do believe in the right of a private enterprise to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, without the law getting involved.

Now, like I said that doesn't mean they aren't crappy people, and HOPEFULLY if word got around about them, their business would suffer because of their prejudices. Natural consequences.

[thesheriff443]

A good car sales person will ask who the car is for, men talk to men if the man takes the lead, I would start by saying the car is for my wife so she is the boss, them the person selling the car �� would be talking to the right person.

[Ronald.]

Ron :nono:, you have gone too far

Flowers are for girls - dont try and break the system

Ha ha of course they were for the wife. R.

[Withano]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2878586/original.jpg

Pretty decent chance of at least 1 of those 5 children growing up to be gay. God, I feel sorry for them, would be awful knowing in advance how ****y your parents would treat you for coming out.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Pretty decent chance of at least 1 of those 5 children growing up to be gay. God, I feel sorry for them, would be awful knowing in advance how ****y your parents would treat you for coming out.

Its true, especially the youngest

[Niamh.]

A good car sales person will ask who the car is for, men talk to men if the man takes the lead, I would start by saying the car is for my wife so she is the boss, them the person selling the car 🚗 would be talking to the right person.
I would start by saying the car is for me, i can speak for myself :hee:

[Tom4784]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2878586/original.jpg

How awful of them to ask someone to set up a GoFundMe page when they and they alone are responsible for their own predicament.

It also bothers me that idiots like these two see 'Religious Freedom' as the right to discriminate against others freely and use religion as an excuse, someone needs to tell those morons that Religious Freedom means that they can follow their own religion freely but that doesn't mean they can discriminate in the realm of business just because. Their right to follow a religion of their choosing has not been impacted at all by this.

It's pretty much the same as people who think that Freedom of Speech is a shield to protect them from differing opinions.

[Ninastar]

I need to find me a fake wife and make me some dolla

[thesheriff443]

I would start by saying the car is for me, i can speak for myself :hee:
Very true niamh, but lets be fair not all woman are confident talking to men.
You deal with men all the time so its easy for you, and there are lots of females on here that are talking for themselves.

[Alf]

You will do as your told.

We will decide how your business is run.

We are the dictators.



Basically.

[Deirdre]

I don't get where the logic comes in when people get big pay-outs? Emotional Damage? For not being served a cake? Reminds me of Ron's story the other night when he got thrown out of a pub for accidentally taking a 50p cake. :joker:
Maybe there's some serious cash just waiting for him. :joker:

[Ronald.]

I don't get where the logic comes in when people get big pay-outs? Emotional Damage? For not being served a cake? Reminds me of Ron's story the other night when he got thrown out of a pub for accidentally taking a 50p cake. :joker:
Maybe there's some serious cash just waiting for him. :joker:

Ha ha I do indeed feel traumatised still I shall contact my lawyer! R.

[Liberty4eva]

Hypothetical question:

If there ever was a bakery that specialized in making cakes for gay couples and there was a hetero couple that wanted a cake would they be required to bake them a cake or face a 135K fine?

I pray Trump destroys political correctness in his 8 years in the White House.

[Withano]

Hypothetical question:

If there ever was a bakery that specialized in making cakes for gay couples and there was a hetero couple that wanted a cake would they be required to bake them a cake or face a 135K fine?

I pray Trump destroys political correctness in his 8 years in the White House.

Yes that shop should be fined.. but that will never happen, its an odd hypo.

[Vicky.]

I don't get where the logic comes in when people get big pay-outs? Emotional Damage? For not being served a cake? Reminds me of Ron's story the other night when he got thrown out of a pub for accidentally taking a 50p cake. :joker:
Maybe there's some serious cash just waiting for him. :joker:

Yeah I would agree with this. 135k for not having a cake baked where you want it is ****ing ridiculous. I would gladly take being 'traumatized' by someone refusing to serve me for ANY reason if it ended in a 100k+ payday tbh. The award is ridiculous.

However, the fact that these people (the bakers) have now MADE money off their decision is also ridiculous.

Its all just a stupid situation and I don't get whats so wrong about baking a cake for a lesbian wedding, however I also do not understand quite the amount of fuss/compensation this has attracted.

[Withano]

Yeah I would agree with this. 135k for not having a cake baked where you want it is ****ing ridiculous. I would gladly take being 'traumatized' by someone refusing to serve me for ANY reason if it ended in a 100k+ payday tbh. The award is ridiculous.

.

Isnt that the point though, if you took someone who traumatised you to court, youd expect to leave in a way that would alleviate your traumatic experience. You, I and this couple can find solitude in 100k+. The traumatic experience just became a neutral, or positive one.

[Cherie]

I look forward to the day bakers with Islamic faith are treated the same as other faiths in these situations :umm2: 135,000 for trauma :joker:

[Vicky.]

Isnt that the point though, if you took someone who traumatised you to court, youd expect to leave in a way that would alleviate your traumatic experience. You, I and this couple can find solitude in 100k+. The traumatic experience just became a neutral, or positive one.

OTT though surely. I would have any trauma experienced alleviated by like 1k, or even a hundred. Hell maybe less :laugh:

[Cherie]

So a question to all who support this ruling, would you go into a Hindu run bakery and demand they make you a cake with eggs in it? OR would accept that they don't bake cakes with eggs and go elsewhere rather than forcing your wishes on them?

[RichardG]

OTT though surely. I would have any trauma experienced alleviated by like 1k, or even a hundred. Hell maybe less :laugh:

a free complimentary chocolate muffin and i'd be screaming

135k for this is ridiculous

[Withano]

OTT though surely. I would have any trauma experienced alleviated by like 1k, or even a hundred. Hell maybe less :laugh:

Yeah, but if you felt traumatised to go through the legal process, you'd still willingly take the 135k! Or any figure that the judge deemed fair based on your personal experience.. Im sure the couple wasnt expecting so much money either tbf, but its not like they (or anyone else in their shoes) would turn around and be like 'oh no, we only need about a quarter of that'.

[Vicky.]

Yeah, but if you felt traumatised to go through the legal process, you'd still willingly take the 135k! Or any figure that the judge deemed fair based on your personal experience.. Im sure the couple wasnt expecting so much money either tbf, but its not like they (or anyone else in their shoes) would turn around and be like 'oh no, we only need about a quarter of that'.

Oh no, I don't blame them at all. Good on them, will be able to get a nice house (if they don't have one already) or at least be very comfortable for a while.

I blame the ridiculous judges :laugh:

[Withano]

Oh no, I don't blame them at all. Good on them, will be able to get a nice house (if they don't have one already) or at least be very comfortable for a while.

I blame the ridiculous judges :laugh:

I worked out that its actually the equivalent to £51k each, which doesnt seem extortionate from the judge based on the story in my opinion - the bakers fault for traumatising two people!

[Vicky.]

I worked out that its actually the equivalent to £51k each, which doesnt seem extortionate from the judge based on the story in my opinion - the bakers fault for traumatising two people!

How far did they have to walk to a new bakers? :suspect: To Timbuktu? How many days off work for the distress of not eating some cake :(

(I agree the bakers are in the wrong btw..just find it all a bit ridiculous and kind of agree that I can't see anyone kicking up a fuss if the bakers were Hindi or Muslim or something)

[Withano]

How far did they have to walk to a new bakers? :suspect: To Timbuktu? How many days off work for the distress of not eating some cake :(

(I agree the bakers are in the wrong btw..just find it all a bit ridiculous and kind of agree that I can't see anyone kicking up a fuss if the bakers were Hindi or Muslim or something)

I think the story would have definitely been shared if the bakers were muslim, I think the outrage would have lasted a lot longer.

I just think, bottom line.. dont go in to public service if youre not prepared to serve all of the public. Expect a fine if you are likely to discriminate against certain groups for whatever reason.

But also, to give credit to your side of the argument, I wouldnt be surprised if the judge used the couple to make an example of them and their crime. The story was already very public before the fine, and the large figure would definitely send a message to lots of business owners. Maybe there was more depth to the judges decision.

[Vicky.]

I think the story would have definitely been shared if the bakers were muslim, I think the outrage would have lasted a lot longer.

I just think, bottom line.. dont go in to public service if youre not prepared to serve all of the public. Expect a fine if you are likely to discriminate against certain groups for whatever reason.

But also, to give credit to your side of the argument, I wouldnt be surprised if the judge used the couple to make an example of them and their crime. The story was already very public before the fine, and the large figure would definitely send a message to lots of business owners. Maybe there was more depth to the judges decision.

Agreed and also agreed about the judge making an example of them too. It just seems...unfair. Mind, the business has hardly been punished for it given they have a surplus themselves of 300k+ from gofundme donations. So the precedent seems to be...do what the **** you like, your community will back you up AND whether the victim or the villain in the story, you will get a huge payout D:

[Vicky.]

See..look at this then look at the 'first' (meaning first well publicized case) of these type cases..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19991266

A gay couple who were turned away from a bed and breakfast were discriminated against, it has been ruled.

Michael Black and John Morgan were refused a double room at Swiss Bed and Breakfast in Berkshire by its owner.

The pair from Brampton, Cambridgeshire, were awarded £1,800 each at Reading County Court for "injury to feelings".

[Withano]

Agreed and also agreed about the judge making an example of them too. It just seems...unfair. Mind, the business has hardly been punished for it given they have a surplus themselves of 300k+ from gofundme donations. So the precedent seems to be...do what the **** you like, your community will back you up AND whether the victim or the villain in the story, you will get a huge payout D:

Haha, yeh. Nobody really lost here. Good news all round! Lets all go discriminate and/or claim we were discriminated against! Everyone will be millionaires!

[VanessaFeltz.]

What if the baker went to a doctor when she has a serious illness and doctor told her that they wont be helping her because she is religious and she should pray the illness away?

This is something those bakers should think about.

[Vicky.]

Haha, yeh. Nobody really lost here. Good news all round! Lets all go discriminate and/or claim we were discriminated against! Everyone will be millionaires!

I plan to open a pub that has a sign outside saying 'no gays allowed' or something tbh. I will be rich.

I may be alone and rich though given nearly every one of my friends is LGBT :laugh:

Surely its a given that whatever your religious beliefs, if you go into public services you need to put them aside and treat everyone equal though...I don't really understand how these cases keep popping up.

[Withano]

See..look at this then look at the 'first' (meaning first well publicized case) of these type cases..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19991266

I dont think theyre incredibly similar stories.. one couple was finalising wedding plans, the other couple just wanted to have a romantic night (presumably).
Being turned away for the former does seem more traumatic/emotional to me.

[Withano]

Surely its a given that whatever your religious beliefs, if you go into public services you need to put them aside and treat everyone equal though...I don't really understand how these cases keep popping up.

Yeah I agree. I think this story will be one of the last of its kind, most people have adapted to the modern life, the rest should be afraid of the punishment for being a decade late.

[Vicky.]

I dont think theyre incredibly similar stories.. one couple was finalising wedding plans, the other couple just wanted to have a romantic night (presumably).
Being turned away for the former does seem more traumatic/emotional to me.

It is not hard to get a wedding cake though. I actually think the gay couple would have had more 'distress' as imagine rocking up somewhere thinking you could stay there then having to find somewhere else that night. The cake could have been done at any stage :shrug:

Either example would probably just be a case of..walking a little further down the road or something mind. And both are clearly wrong (businesses not customers). Just...so much fuss made of a cake, ****s sake I got mine 3 days before my wedding after original person cancelled and the sky didn't cave in :laugh:

[Withano]

It is not hard to get a wedding cake though. I actually think the gay couple would have had more 'distress' as imagine rocking up somewhere thinking you could stay there then having to find somewhere else that night. The cake could have been done at any stage :shrug:

Either example would probably just be a case of..walking a little further down the road or something mind. And both are clearly wrong (businesses not customers). Just...so much fuss made of a cake, ****s sake I got mine 3 days before my wedding after original person cancelled and the sky didn't cave in :laugh:

But although it is just driving a little further, it is still discrimnation based on sexuality. Its not appropriate to to suggest that gay people should be prepared to go to places with the knowledge that they may be turned away and told to go somewhere else because of their sexuality, whereas a straight couple would never need to go through this for the exact same reason. There shouldnt be this difference, business owners should be fined if they believe differently.
It isnt just a cake or a hotel room, its also discrimination

[Vicky.]

But although it is just driving a little further, it is still discrimnation based on sexuality. Its not appropriate to to suggest that gay people should be prepared to go to places with the knowledge that they may be turned away and told to go somewhere else because of their sexuality, whereas a straight couple would never need to go through this for the exact same reason. There shouldnt be this difference, business owners should be fined if they believe differently.
It isnt just a cake or a hotel room, its also discrimination

Indeed.

[Tom4784]

You will do as your told.

We will decide how your business is run.

We are the dictators.



Basically.

All opinions come with consequences, if you are going to be bigoted in a business setting then you'll have to potentially deal with a lawsuit since you are breaking discrimination laws.

It's quite worrying that you see people facing consequences for discrimination as signs of a dictatorship in all honesty. Quite worrying indeed.

I look forward to the day bakers with Islamic faith are treated the same as other faiths in these situations :umm2: 135,000 for trauma :joker:

They would be treated the same if it was the same situation IE religious owners of a non-religious business. If the owners of the original story's bakery was called 'Sweet Cakes Christian Bakery' then it would be foolish to expect them to make a cake that would fly in the face of their belief but it isn't a Christian Bakery.

So a question to all who support this ruling, would you go into a Hindu run bakery and demand they make you a cake with eggs in it? OR would accept that they don't bake cakes with eggs and go elsewhere rather than forcing your wishes on them?

I think that's a silly inflamatory hypothetical situation.

If the business itself wasn't Hindu based then I'd expect them to make cakes with eggs since it would suggest they aren't devout since they wouldn't open a general bakery otherwise as they'd be expected to work with eggs every day, they'd probably opt for a specialist bakery instead and if that's the case, complaining about a lack of eggs would be like going to a vegetarian restaurant and getting mad about them not serving meat products.

[smudgie]

Live and let live I say.
If it goes against their religion then aren't they being discriminated again for their beliefs?
If you go to a shop, any shop that can't supply what you want then you just move on to another, it doesn't have to be an issue unless you want to make it one....and certainly shouldn't be paid out for any feeling of hurt, indignity or trauma,( trauma, FFS)

[Cherie]

All opinions come with consequences, if you are going to be bigoted in a business setting then you'll have to potentially deal with a lawsuit since you are breaking discrimination laws.

It's quite worrying that you see people facing consequences for discrimination as signs of a dictatorship in all honesty. Quite worrying indeed.



They would be treated the same if it was the same situation IE religious owners of a non-religious business. If the owners of the original story's bakery was called 'Sweet Cakes Christian Bakery' then it would be foolish to expect them to make a cake that would fly in the face of their belief but it isn't a Christian Bakery.



I think that's a silly inflamatory hypothetical situation.

If the business itself wasn't Hindu based then I'd expect them to make cakes with eggs since it would suggest they aren't devout since they wouldn't open a general bakery otherwise as they'd be expected to work with eggs every day, they'd probably opt for a specialist bakery instead and if that's the case, complaining about a lack of eggs would be like going to a vegetarian restaurant and getting mad about them not serving meat products.

It's neither silly nor inflammatory as it has happened to me, they didn't have any signage to say they were a specialist bakery, they just redirected me elsewhere and like most normal people I accepted it. This issue is actually trivialising real discrimation and for me it looks like they were looking for a payday rather than actually highlighting discrimination.

[Cherie]

Live and let live I say.
If it goes against their religion then aren't they being discriminated again for their beliefs?
If you go to a shop, any shop that can't supply what you want then you just move on to another, it doesn't have to be an issue unless you want to make it one....and certainly shouldn't be paid out for any feeling of hurt, indignity or trauma,( trauma, FFS)

Far too much common sense there Smudgie

[Jamie89]

So a question to all who support this ruling, would you go into a Hindu run bakery and demand they make you a cake with eggs in it? OR would accept that they don't bake cakes with eggs and go elsewhere rather than forcing your wishes on them?

That's very different tbf, eggs haven't fought against discrimination in quite the same way gays have :hee:

Live and let live I say.
If it goes against their religion then aren't they being discriminated again for their beliefs?
If you go to a shop, any shop that can't supply what you want then you just move on to another, it doesn't have to be an issue unless you want to make it one....and certainly shouldn't be paid out for any feeling of hurt, indignity or trauma,( trauma, FFS)

It wasn't as though the shop "can't" supply them though, it's that they refused to on grounds of their sexuality. Can you imagine if a shop owner refused to serve someone based on their race? I think, yeah it's just a cake, and yes the amount of money seems a bit ridiculous, but there's no denying they were being discriminatory, and people who are going to run a business in a discriminatory fashion shouldn't be running a business.. And they aren't being discriminated against because of their beliefs, their beliefs contradict with business law and they made the decision to run a business. They can't simply expect the law to change or for them to be immune from it because of their personally held beliefs. And they aren't actually being stopped from having their beliefs, they are entitled to practise their religion however they want as anyone else is able to.... as long as it doesn't infringe on the law. They can still believe that gay marriage is wrong, they just can't refuse sale to someone based on their sexuality when they're supposed to be serving the general public... 'live and let live' would be something that I think they could do well to consider.

[Tom4784]

It's neither silly nor inflammatory as it has happened to me, they didn't have any signage to say they were a specialist bakery, they just redirected me elsewhere and like most normal people I accepted it. This issue is actually trivialising real discrimation and for me it looks like they were looking for a payday rather than actually highlighting discrimination.

Of course it is silly, you're comparing being denied service because of an egg to being denied service because of a person's sexuality, it's silly to think that people should accept homophobia like you'd accept a bakery not dealing with eggs.

[Cherie]

That's very different tbf, eggs haven't fought against discrimination in quite the same way gays have :hee:



It wasn't as though the shop "can't" supply them though, it's that they refused to on grounds of their sexuality. Can you imagine if a shop owner refused to serve someone based on their race? I think, yeah it's just a cake, and yes the amount of money seems a bit ridiculous, but there's no denying they were being discriminatory, and people who are going to run a business in a discriminatory fashion shouldn't be running a business.. And they aren't being discriminated against because of their beliefs, their beliefs contradict with business law and they made the decision to run a business. They can't simply expect the law to change or for them to be immune from it because of their personally held beliefs. And they aren't actually being stopped from having their beliefs, they are entitled to practise their religion however they want as anyone else is able to.... as long as it doesn't infringe on the law. They can still believe that gay marriage is wrong, they just can't refuse sale to someone based on their sexuality when they're supposed to be serving the general public... 'live and let live' would be something that I think they could do well to consider.

Wrong

the bakers claim as follows
he bakers said their refusal to bake for the couple was prompted by religious beliefs. Nothing to do with their sexuality. One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

[Cherie]

Of course it is silly, you're comparing being denied service because of an egg to being denied service because of a person's sexuality, it's silly to think that people should accept homophobia like you'd accept a bakery not dealing with eggs.

Its not silly its the same principal, they haven't advertised themselves as specialist bakers so therefore they should technically sell me whatever cake I want as that seems to be the argument here.

[Jamie89]

Wrong

the bakers claim as follows
he bakers said their refusal to bake for the couple was prompted by religious beliefs. Nothing to do with their sexuality. One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

That was the bakers stance in order to try and get off, but what was found by law to be the case, was...

It is about a business’s refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation. Under Oregon law, that is illegal

It's not ok to discriminate against people and blame your religion, and that's not infringing on the religious persons rights. They still have the right to believe whatever they want, what they don't have the right to do is actively discriminate against people.

One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

The comparison being made here isn't valid, religious peoples right to discriminate is not equal to a gay persons right to shop without fear of being refused service on the basis of their sexuality (just as a religious person shouldn't be refused service in a shop based on them being religious). They aren't having their right to religious belief being taken away from them... they seem to believe that their religion carries with it a right to discriminate... it doesn't.

[Jamie89]

Its not silly its the same principal, they haven't advertised themselves as specialist bakers so therefore they should technically sell me whatever cake I want as that seems to be the argument here.

It's different because in your case, you wanted a specific ingredient and that ingredient was refused. They didn't refuse to serve you because of who you are. There's similarities in that religion comes into both scenarios but the principle is very different.

[Toy Soldier]

Wrong

the bakers claim as follows
he bakers said their refusal to bake for the couple was prompted by religious beliefs. Nothing to do with their sexuality. One communities rights are being held up as more deserving than another in this instance

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

[Jamie89]

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

I worry though that a lot of people actually wouldn't be bothered enough for bad word of mouth to have any kind of impact on their business... if this hadn't gone through the courts would many people even have heard about it? Sure there might have been a facebook post that picked up some traction or something but I doubt there'd have been any lasting impact, in fact it would probably have drawn a lot of people to them (judging by their 'go fund me'). In an ideal world I'd agree but surely one of the reasons we have courts is to stop discrimination because being left to themselves, people like this and certain communities would just perpetuate it and it would get worse, not better, on it's own?

[arista]

I assume Now Trump
is in power
some bakers will
stick to Man and Women Married cakes
ONLY again.

If you are Gay
go to another bakers - there are loads of them.

[Toy Soldier]

I worry though that a lot of people actually wouldn't be bothered enough for bad word of mouth to have any kind of impact on their business... if this hadn't gone through the courts would many people even have heard about it? Sure there might have been a facebook post that picked up some traction or something but I doubt there'd have been any lasting impact, in fact it would probably have drawn a lot of people to them (judging by their 'go fund me'). In an ideal world I'd agree but surely one of the reasons we have courts is to stop discrimination because being left to themselves, people like this and certain communities would just perpetuate it and it would get worse, not better, on it's own?
Perhaps true but then I start to have trouble with the idea of people not being authentic by obligation. I want to know where my money is going, I want to know what sort of people I am supporting by giving them my custom... I don't like the idea that I am happily handing over money to people with repulsive views, unknowingly, because they have to bury those views by law. Basically I would rather people did feel confident in sharing their unsavoury views if only to simplify the process of knowing who to avoid.

[Brillopad]

Brexit is gonna make us all billionaires any second now, dont you worry.

Staying in Europe would be the answer to all our problems - allegedly. Or the cause of many! Plodding on, asking no questions and playing it safe rarely achieve any significant change.

[Cherie]

Oh come on, that one's a stretch. Yes it's their religious beliefs, but it's their religious beliefs REGARDING sexually. You can't say it has nothing to do with sexuality ... What a bizarre statement Cherie.

Though to reiterate I don't think this should be a legal issue. I do think they deserve to go out of business for their prejudice but I'd prefer it to be the old fashioned way; through poor word of mouth and being boycotted for being homophobic, rather than the courts getting involved.

Why is it stretch to to believe they follow the teachings of the bible, we have no problem with other faiths following their faiths to the letter but when it comes to Christian beliefs it's 'nah mate, thems homophobic innit". rather than accepting they might actually want to follow their bible

[VanessaFeltz.]

I assume Now Trump
is in power
some bakers will
stick to Man and Women Married cakes
ONLY again.

If you are Gay
go to another bakers - there are loads of them.




When will people understand this is more than just cakes..............

This is about someone telling your face that they wont serve you because you are gay. There is no ifs and buts, these people are basically telling your face that you are not worthy of getting serviced based off something you cant control and a part of you.

Everyone have beliefs. It is not just about religion, some people think homosexuality is wrong, some people think religion is **** and religious people are lunatic. Everyone has an opinion on everything. That doesnt mean you have a right to voice EVERYTHING to peoples faces. For example when i found out majority of my classmates were wearing hijab i was very annoyed and i judged them. Did i ever make them uncomfortable by discriminating them or sprouding hateful words at their faces? No and i gave them equal chances to meet and get to know and couple of them turned out to be very liberal, lovely and smart people and we have become good friends.

When that hideous ugly ****** Melissa told their faces that they wont be serving them because they are a homosexual couple when they were SO happy that they were having one of the happiest days of their lives after living through discrimination and hate starting from their CHILDHOOD when they did nothing wrong. Imagine the feeling they had.. everyone lives through discrimination and hatred would feel ****ing awful after seeing this. This isnt about the money this is about them feeling the way they made those people felt.

[Kizzy]

It's neither silly nor inflammatory as it has happened to me, they didn't have any signage to say they were a specialist bakery, they just redirected me elsewhere and like most normal people I accepted it. This issue is actually trivialising real discrimation and for me it looks like they were looking for a payday rather than actually highlighting discrimination.

Cherie this is real discrimination, this is what it looks like.
As a rule those being discriminated against don't take the matter this far, personally I'm happy that these people had the courage to do so.

Their religious observance only became apparent as a counter, with a Hindu bakery that would not be the case as they obviously would not have any egg related items for sale, so basically they have no obligation to sell you something they don't have.

[Ronald.]

Are we still talking lesbian cakes? R

[Ronald.]

When will people understand this is more than just cakes..............

This is about someone telling your face that they wont serve you because you are gay. There is no ifs and buts, these people are basically telling your face that you are not worthy of getting serviced based off something you cant control and a part of you.

Everyone have beliefs. It is not just about religion, some people think homosexuality is wrong, some people think religion is **** and religious people are lunatic. Everyone has an opinion on everything. That doesnt mean you have a right to voice EVERYTHING to peoples faces. For example when i found out majority of my classmates were wearing hijab i was very annoyed and i judged them. Did i ever make them uncomfortable by discriminating them or sprouding hateful words at their faces? No and i gave them equal chances to meet and get to know and couple of them turned out to be very liberal, lovely and smart people and we have become good friends.

When that hideous ugly ****** Melissa told their faces that they wont be serving them because they are a homosexual couple when they were SO happy that they were having one of the happiest days of their lives after living through discrimination and hate starting from their CHILDHOOD when they did nothing wrong. Imagine the feeling they had.. everyone lives through discrimination and hatred would feel ****ing awful after seeing this. This isnt about the money this is about them feeling the way they made those people felt.

Never thought I'd say these words but I agree with Vanessa Feltz. R

[Brillopad]

Why is it stretch to to believe they follow the teachings of the bible, we have no problem with other faiths following their faiths to the letter but when it comes to Christian beliefs it's 'nah mate, thems homophobic innit". rather than accepting they might actually want to follow their bible

It really is a concern, when the historical majority faith of this country is treated as having less importance and less rights than those of minority faiths in the country.

People can't be tolerant to some religous beliefs and not others - that in itself is discrimination.

[Kizzy]

It really is a concern, when the historical majority faith of this country is treated as having less importance and less rights than those of minority faiths in the country.

People can't be tolerant to some religous beliefs and not others - that in itself is discrimination.

Since when was sexuality a faith?...

Do you mean the marginalised should just accept being marginalised as that's how it was, is and forever shall be?... pfffft!

[Brillopad]

Since when was sexuality a faith?...

Do you mean the marginalised should just accept being marginalised as that's how it was, is and forever shall be?... pfffft!

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

[arista]

"When will people understand this is more than just cakes.............."

Of Course it is VF.

But in USA some states are not like LA or NYC.

[Tom4784]

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

But it's not a Christian Bakery nor is it a specialist bakery. Lovely Cakes is a normal bakery with Christian owners and that's where the problem lies. It would be common sense not to go to a religious place for custom made items for a gay wedding but that's not the case here.

Nobody has said they'd excuse a Muslim owner of it if they were in the same situation so you are literally using an imaginary situation to call people hypocrites based on imaginary things you've imagined them to say. You are inventing reasons to be offended.

Muslim BIGOTS would receive the same fine as these Christian BIGOTS because, in Oregon, even my example of a religious focused business from my last post wouldn't be exempt from Discrimination Laws since all Private Businesses in Oregon has to follow them.

[Kizzy]

Many faiths have issues with same sex relationships so therefore it clearly is related to faith and religion.

If for example someone were to excuse a Muslim cake shop from refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding based on their regions beliefs they cannot then accuse a Chritian shop of discrimination for doing so based on their regions beliefs.

That would be blatant discrimination.

That hasn't happened though has it?
Had a cake shop refused to make a cake for a same sex couple and when it went to court they said 'but we're Muslim' then I would expect the same outcome as this personally.

[Brillopad]

But it's not a Christian Bakery nor is it a specialist bakery. Lovely Cakes is a normal bakery with Christian owners and that's where the problem lies. It would be common sense not to go to a religious place for custom made items for a gay wedding but that's not the case here.

Nobody has said they'd excuse a Muslim owner of it if they were in the same situation so you are literally using an imaginary situation to call people hypocrites based on imaginary things you've imagined them to say. You are inventing reasons to be offended.

Muslim BIGOTS would receive the same fine as these Christian BIGOTS because, in Oregon, even my example of a religious focused business from my last post wouldn't be exempt from Discrimination Laws since all Private Businesses in Oregon has to follow them.

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

[Tom4784]

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

And that doesn't change the fact that you are calling people hypocrites based on something you've imagined.

Also I don't think any posters on here have ever 'excused' bigoted behavior based on the fact that a muslim is responsible. What I do see a lot is people opposing islamophobic people like yourself from branding millions of innocent people are savages or monsters because you are blinded by your own hatred and fear and can't tell the forest from the trees when it comes to muslims.

The actions of a few do not represent a whole, that's the argument that is always being made against your islamophobia, you can't tell the difference between your average muslim and an extremist and that's why you constantly misrepresent people as defending muslims that are in the wrong rather than opposing the fact you tar millions of people with the same brush, because you can't comprehend the fact that the muslim community is as diverse and wide reaching as christians are.

I would say the exact same thing about the owners of this bakery if they were of any religion, that they are in the wrong.

[Toy Soldier]

I did state that my use of a Muslim bakery was an example, one I used especially as it is a religion often excused its many bigoted behaviours, whereas those doing such excusing often attempt to ridicule and undermine the Christian Religion for the same.

To be fair... and of course at the risk of stereotyping... how many take-aways are owned by Muslim owners? The answer is "a lot". And how many of those take-aways refuse to serve gay couples? The answer is "I've never heard of any!". There is a likelihood that those owners are "not really OK in principle" with homosexuality but they don't then refuse service based on that... and also, more importantly based on your complete strawman argument that "people would be fine with it if it was Muslims!"... no, I don't think people WOULD be ok with it if the local take-away started refusing to serve gay couples.

[Brillopad]

And that doesn't change the fact that you are calling people hypocrites based on something you've imagined.

Also I don't think any posters on here have ever 'excused' bigoted behavior based on the fact that a muslim is responsible. What I do see a lot is people opposing islamophobic people like yourself from branding millions of innocent people are savages or monsters because you are blinded by your own hatred and fear and can't tell the forest from the trees when it comes to muslims.

The actions of a few do not represent a whole, that's the argument that is always being made against your islamophobia, you can't tell the difference between your average muslim and an extremist and that's why you constantly misrepresent people as defending muslims that are in the wrong rather than opposing the fact you tar millions of people with the same brush, because you can't comprehend the fact that the muslim community is as diverse and wide reaching as christians are.

I would say the exact same thing about the owners of this bakery if they were of any religion, that they are in the wrong.

If your statement about the reactions to the actions of a few were correct there wouldn't be the problems throughout Europe that there are. If it were just an insignificant few causing a few problems previously tolerant countries such as Sweden and Germany would not be re-thinking their position.

I have never said all Muslims are radical or share bigoted views but the number who do is significantly more than a few - that really is laughable. The more that come here the more radical Muslims will be living among us - that is the law of averages.

I personally dissaprove of the religon because it is filled with hate to many groups including Jews, Hindus, blacks, women, other Muslims, the list goes on. It is and never has been a tolerant or peaceful religion and brings little to our society with all its hate and double standards. At the very least we should be vetting everyone we let into our country and only take those that will enhance our country and its values.

Who used the word 'savages' certainly wasn't me - so once again no words in mouth please. You interpret based on your own perceptions the same as you accuse me of doing so your words are no more valid than mine - it is all about views and perception.

The difference being that if I am wrong then cultural diversity might not be quite as rich as maybe you would like but if you are wrong this country could become a very difficult place to live in the future as multiculturalism has never worked and only heightens the differences in cultures and belief systems which iin turn creates division and segregation.

[Toy Soldier]

Just as a matter of interest Brillo... would you say that the UK should take ANY refugees, then? How many would you say OK? Is it literally ZERO, and you would only let in migrants with "something to offer"?

[Brillopad]

Just as a matter of interest Brillo... would you say that the UK should take ANY refugees, then? How many would you say OK? Is it literally ZERO, and you would only let in migrants with "something to offer"?

For me a points system related to skills etc for the majority. As far as refugees go I think we cannot and should not take too many.

Obviously I can't put a figure on it but we have to put the safety and security of those already living in this country first and do thorough checks/ monitoring of everyone coming in. If we can't do that from a practical point of view then this has to reflect on the number of refugees we take in.

Anything else in my opinion is foolhardy and something we could all live to regret.

[Tom4784]

If your statement about the reactions to the actions of a few were correct there wouldn't be the problems throughout Europe that there are. If it were just an insignificant few causing a few problems previously tolerant countries such as Sweden and Germany would not be re-thinking their position.

I have never said all Muslims are radical or share bigoted views but the number who do is significantly more than a few - that really is laughable. The more that come here the more radical Muslims will be living among us - that is the law of averages.

I personally dissaprove of the religon because it is filled with hate to many groups including Jews, Hindus, blacks, women, other Muslims, the list goes on. It is and never has been a tolerant or peaceful religion and brings little to our society with all its hate and double standards. At the very least we should be vetting everyone we let into our country and only take those that will enhance our country and its values.

Who used the word 'savages' certainly wasn't me - so once again no words in mouth please. You interpret based on your own perceptions the same as you accuse me of doing so your words are no more valid than mine - it is all about views and perception.

The difference being that if I am wrong then cultural diversity might not be quite as rich as maybe you would like but if you are wrong this country could become a very difficult place to live in the future as multiculturalism has never worked and only heightens the differences in cultures and belief systems which iin turn creates division and segregation.

You know it's funny, you and your friends pretty much scream at people for proof for every little thing yet you make statements like this and have never provided any proof to back it up. Where are the receipts for this claim?

All religion is filled with hate, have you never read the old testament? Judging an entire religion by ancient scripture alone is never going to paint a pretty picture of any religion. Most people who follow religion pick and choose the passages they wish to follow. A lot of Christians certainly don't consider eating shellfish a sin nor do they consider the mixture of clothing materials to be a grave matter. There's easily passages in the bible that a terrorist group could use to attempt to justify their acts but they don't represent the majority and nor does extremists represent the average muslim.

I hate all organised religion but I find the idea of hating one religion yet being fine with the others when they are all guilty of the same **** to be insufferably hypocritical. My view is that, when it comes to religion, I'll judge the individual, not the whole because only an ignorant person would speak in broad strokes.

This country has been multicultural since it's ascension from our ancestors living in mud huts. People who claim that multiculturism is a bad thing and fear the future ultimately don't know where they've come from.

Funny how you've found a way to bring up immigration in a thread completely unrelated to immigration. Do you not think that people aren't vetted when they apply for asylum? Do you believe we welcome all who come to this country with a Semi Detached house and a brand new car? Immigration as an issue is just a shiny set of keys to jingle in the public's face to distract them from the fact the tories want to privatise everything. Nothing is going to change about it, our economy is reliant on migrant workforces.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Never thought I'd say these words but I agree with Vanessa Feltz. R

Why :bawling:

[Cherie]

To be fair... and of course at the risk of stereotyping... how many take-aways are owned by Muslim owners? The answer is "a lot". And how many of those take-aways refuse to serve gay couples? The answer is "I've never heard of any!". There is a likelihood that those owners are "not really OK in principle" with homosexuality but they don't then refuse service based on that... and also, more importantly based on your complete strawman argument that "people would be fine with it if it was Muslims!"... no, I don't think people WOULD be ok with it if the local take-away started refusing to serve gay couples.

Serving food is slightly different, the cake was to be part of a marriage celebration

[parmnion]

Chinese, indians, chippys, wimpeys, mac d...all well known muslim owned takeaways.....get a grip ffs.:nono:

[Kizzy]

Why are we talking about Muslims again?... Every topic it's 'but what about the Muslims!?'...
This isn't about them, I think it's established that it would be as bad if they acted as these bakers did.

No, it's the wonderful and tolerant Christians.