Occidentophobia - a refusal to accept the essential concepts of life in the West.

[Brillopad]

Young Muslim men refuse to embrace the social codes of Western life. They were raised on the idea that their religous ethics trump the ethics of the infidels.

In December 2013 Professor Rund Koopmans of the Berlin Social Science Centre published a study on 'Fundamentalism and out-group hostility' in which he compared hostility among Muslim immigrants and Christisn natives in Western Europe. Almost 60% felt that Muslims should return to the roots of Islam, 75% felt there is only one interpretation of the Quran possible to which every Muslim should stick and 65% felt that religious rules were more important to them than the laws of the country in which they lived. In regards to Christians, he concluded that less than 4% could be characterised as consistent fundamentalists.

In the modern welfare state immigrants were more dependent on the welfare state than the average citizens. As a group they receive more money than they pay in taxes. They also show up much higher in crime statistics than their numbers would justify.

Almost 60% of Europe's Muslims reject homosexuals as friends and 45% think that Jews cannot be trusted. Whilst about 1in 5 natives can be considered Islamophobic, the level of phobia against the West is much higher, with 54% believing that the West is out to destroy Islam.

Muslim integration is successful when Muslims are willing to give up the mental confinement of their countries - countries, let's not forget, which they left in search of a better life. For as long as they refuse to adapt to a European state of mind , they will perpetuate resentment and a culture of violence.

What did 'we' do to 'them'? We opened our cities, our houses, our wallets. And in our secular temples of progress - our metro stations, airports and theatres - their sons are killing themselves and taking our sons and daughters with them.

There is nothing for which we need to apologise. Occidentophobia originated in the Muslim community. We need to demand they abandon it.

From an article called 'Muslims hate the West' published in 2016 which I found very interesting. Thoughts please.




,

[MB.]

From an article called 'Muslims hate the West'

Well that's going to be balanced

[Brillopad]

Well that's going to be balanced

It came from an article from Politico which apparently tends to have a left centre bias, not a right-wing source as you suggest.

[Northern Monkey]

I think the title of the article was a bad choice.The majority of home grown muslims i don't think fall into this category.The ones who grew up with western values.Yes there are home grown terrorists but they are a minority.
The article is possibly true though of muslims who grew up in strict muslim countries and dont want to adjust to the western way of life.Hence why we get ghettos with shariah courts etc.

[Wizard.]

How come they called themselves British Asian like on that BBC Radio Asia advert? If I moved to a Muslim country would they call me British Asian? No they'd call me British and sinful

[user104658]

I love the smell of hilarious xenophobic propaganda in the morning.

[Withano]

I love confirmation-bias.

[Withano]

Can I ask how you found this article. I have a feeling you probably typed 'Muslims hate the West' in to Google.

[jennyjuniper]

In the 60's/70's in Yorkshire, quite a few Asian families moved into our area to work in the cotton mills. Everyone seemed to get along fine. They didn't try to interfere in our way of life and we accorded them the same courtesy. Then the asian population grew and with it came the imams and that's when problems started to arise.
When muslims are only a small minority they manage to get along with people, but as soon as their numbers grow. so does their aggression and demands.
In parts of London 'sharia patrols' are out after dark forbidding non muslims from walking past their mosques, telling British women how to dress and heckling anyone who they percieve as gay.
What's really alarming is that a non muslim would almost certainly be jailed for uttering racist remarks to a muslim, yet muslims can scream death threats and 'down with britain' and 'kill the police', even when the police are there and very little if anything is done about it.
Radical muslims feed on democracy and the freedom it gives them to infiltrate our countries, yet would be the first to stamp out and last vestige of freedom or democracy for us.

[Livia]

Roughtly 200 million females are the victims of female genital mutilation in the world today. This means at best, their clitoris is removed with a razor blade or scissors and at worst, their clitoris and labia are removed and they are sewn up leaving just a small hole for urination and menstruation. Those who don't bleed to death or die from infection go on to have massive problems with sex (penetrative sex is almost impossible without pain and injury) and childbirth puts the mother and child at risk of a painful death. FGM is practised almost entirely by Muslims... a patriachal religion where women have almost no say in their own lives.

This barbaric act is carried out in order to keep Muslim women from having sexual thoughts and to keep them pure for marriage. So... are we surprised that the countries supporting FGM not fans of the West, with our feminism and our equal rights?

[Firewire]

Christian woman experience FGM as well, by the way.

[Niamh.]

Also, it seems to be more cultural, it's not practiced in most Muslim countries, It seems to be most prevalent in African countries. Barbaric tradition though

[Firewire]

Also, it seems to be more cultural, it's not practiced in most Muslim countries, It seems to be most prevalent in African countries. Barbaric tradition though

It's disgusting, but yes it's more of a Central African thing

[Livia]

Christian woman experience FGM as well, by the way.

You will notice I said "FGM is practised almost entirely by Muslims". The number of Christians and others are tiny in comparison. In most Muslim countries where FGM is practised women have no control over their own lives including access to heathcare, education... and a tiny percentage of Christians (and others) who carry out FGM only serves to illustrate how massive the problem is in Islamic countries.

[Firewire]

No wonder they want to come here then, eh?

[Livia]

It's not practised in all Muslim countries. But this thread is talking about occidentaphobia, not Islam. I pointed out that it's mostly a Muslim practise even though it says nothing about it in the Koran, only male circumcision.

[Livia]

No wonder they want to come here then, eh?

Women have no rights over their own bodies in FGM practising countries, I'm sure they wouldn't be the ones deciding which country to move to. That would be the man.

[Niamh.]

It's not practised in all Muslim countries. But this thread is talking about occidentaphobia, not Islam. I pointed out that it's mostly a Muslim practise even though it says nothing about it in the Koran, only male circumcision.

To be fair though, male circumcision is completely unnecessary too (although not as damaging) and that's still being practiced as well by the west, those new born baby boys have no choice in the matter either

[Livia]

To be fair though, male circumcision is completely unnecessary too (although not as damaging) and that's still being practiced as well by the west, those new born baby boys have no choice in the matter either

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

[Niamh.]

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

The whole male circumcision thing is an argument for another thread I guess but imo it is horrific as well

[user104658]

You will notice I said "FGM is practised almost entirely by Muslims". The number of Christians and others are tiny in comparison. In most Muslim countries where FGM is practised women have no control over their own lives including access to heathcare, education... and a tiny percentage of Christians (and others) who carry out FGM only serves to illustrate how massive the problem is in Islamic countries.

The vast majority of FGM is carried out in Northern African countries and has been going on for over 2000 years - since before the birth of Christianity, let alone Islam - so is almost certainly rooted in once-obscure tribal traditions, and would be going on in those areas regardless of the majority religion. Like a horrific "Christmas Tree", I suppose.

But let's not let pesky facts get in the way of a good bit of anti-islam rhetoric.

[Livia]

The whole male circumcision thing is an argument for another thread I guess but imo it is horrific as well

I love you Niamh... but if you think male circumcision and female genital mutilation are at all comparable, you really don't know enough about FGM.

[Livia]

The vast majority of FGM is carried out in Northern African countries and has been going on for over 2000 years - since before the birth of Christianity, let alone Islam - so is almost certainly rooted in once-obscure tribal traditions, and would be going on in those areas regardless of the majority religion. Like a horrific "Christmas Tree", I suppose.

But let's not let pesky facts get in the way of a good bit of anti-islam rhetoric.

Yes, FGM pre-dates Islam. That's a well-known fact. Because it's happening mainly in Africa (although it's going on all over the world) doesn't make it less important.

Here's a pesky fact for you. 200 million women. TWO HUNDRED MILLION. Almost entirely Muslims. Nothing getting in the way of that fact.

[user104658]

I love you Niamh... but if you think male circumcision and female genital mutilation are at all comparable, you really don't know enough about FGM.

They're not equatable in terms of physical impact at all, and it can be necessary for medical reasons, or chosen as a matter of preference (as a circumcised male I imagine that I probably prefer it, though admittedly don't know the alternative :think: ) HOWEVER there is a comparison to be made beyond the physical.

I am 100% against the unnecessary circumcision of infants for any reason other than medical. For the simple reason that I am 100% against the notion that a parent owns the body of their child. No further discussion involved: it is just simply NOT their choice. Making any physical alteration to another person's body without their informed consent is abhorrent, full stop. An infant or child cannot consent to the procedure, and so carrying it out without a medical reason should be considered deliberate bodily harm. Simple as that :shrug:.

If later in life someone decides to be circumcised, for ANY reason - health, aesthetics, religion/culture - that's fine, great, go for it, totally a personal choice. Much like a piercing or tattoo I guess. It's just not OK to permanently physically alter your children in any way :shrug:.

[user104658]

Yes, FGM pre-dates Islam. That's a well-known fact. Because it's happening mainly in Africa (although it's going on all over the world) doesn't make it less important.

Here's a pesky fact for you. 200 million women. TWO HUNDRED MILLION. Almost entirely Muslims. Nothing getting in the way of that fact.

But you're falling into the "correlation implies causation" trap there, when there is clear evidence that the practice is cultural and not religious. To make what point, I don't know.

[DemolitionRed]

Did Professor Rund Koopmans also do a study on Hindu, ultra orthodox Jews and ultra orthodox Christians?

[Niamh.]

I love you Niamh... but if you think male circumcision and female genital mutilation are at all comparable, you really don't know enough about FGM.

They are comparable in the sense, it's cutting off a part of a childs genitals without consent and for no good reason (unless it's medically required) I am well aware that it's much worse for a female, I've already said that

[user104658]

They are comparable in the sense, it's cutting off a part of a childs genitals without consent and for no good reason (unless it's medically required) I am well aware that it's much worse for a female, I've already said that

Livia confuses the terms "comparable" and "equatable" despite my best efforts. I think it's just defiance at this point.

[Cherie]

In the 60's/70's in Yorkshire, quite a few Asian families moved into our area to work in the cotton mills. Everyone seemed to get along fine. They didn't try to interfere in our way of life and we accorded them the same courtesy. Then the asian population grew and with it came the imams and that's when problems started to arise.
When muslims are only a small minority they manage to get along with people, but as soon as their numbers grow. so does their aggression and demands.
In parts of London 'sharia patrols' are out after dark forbidding non muslims from walking past their mosques, telling British women how to dress and heckling anyone who they percieve as gay.
What's really alarming is that a non muslim would almost certainly be jailed for uttering racist remarks to a muslim, yet muslims can scream death threats and 'down with britain' and 'kill the police', even when the police are there and very little if anything is done about it.
Radical muslims feed on democracy and the freedom it gives them to infiltrate our countries, yet would be the first to stamp out and last vestige of freedom or democracy for us.

That doesn't happen, yes there were one of two cases near Whitechapel where this happened, but there are no "no go" muslim ghettos in London, I live in a very multicutural area, my sons school were 90 per cent asian and there are no problems apart from the usual idiots that you get in every culture.

[Brillopad]

Can I ask how you found this article. I have a feeling you probably typed 'Muslims hate the West' in to Google.

And your feelings would be wrong, as usual. It was a perfectly valid factual article from a non- right wing source - all the more reason to attempt to dismiss it Hey.

You have your own agenda and will only hear what you want to hear. I doubt too many are influenced by that.

[Withano]

And your feelings would be wrong, as usual. It was a perfectly valid factual article from a non- right wing source - all the more reason to attempt to dismiss it Hey.

You have your own agenda and will only hear what you want to hear. I doubt too many are influenced by that.

Right, no, but that cant be true really. Nobody believes that you stumbled on this website and just scrolled back until 2016 (and even then, you would have decided to open this and not the hundreds of articles before that date). So you must have searched for a keyword somewhere.

So how did you find his article, why did you skirt around that very direct question?

[Brillopad]

Right, no, but that cant be true really. Nobody believes that you stumbled on this website and just scrolled back until 2016 (and even then, you would have decided to open this and not the hundreds of articles before that date). So you must have searched for a keyword somewhere.

So how did you find his article, why did you skirt around that very direct question?

I really don't care whether you believe me or not. I was interested in the problems experienced across Europe with mass immigration and Islam. That was just one example of what I found.

[Withano]

I really don't care whether you believe me or not. I was interested in the problems experienced across Europe with mass immigration and Islam. That was just one example of what I found.

Believe you or not? You havent answered how you came across the article yet lol! You havent put me in a posistion to not believe you. (The rest of your post isnt really relevant to the only discussion I'm having with you on the subject).

[Withano]

So can you answer how you came across the article or is that top secret stuff

[Brillopad]

So can you answer how you came across the article or is that top secret stuff

Only in your head.

[Withano]

Only in your head.

So you cant answer how you came across the article...
... so when I suggested that you probably searched in to google for an article precisely or similiar to the one you found, I can assume I was correct?

[Brillopad]

So you cant answer how you came across the article...
... so when I suggested that you probably searched in to google for an article precisely or similiar to the one you found, I can assume I was correct?

You and your conspiracy theories - Islamic migration in the West - see for yourself. Read it and weep.

[Withano]

You and your conspiracy theories - Islamic migration in the West - see for yourself. Read it and weep.

Thats not relevant to the one and only question i have asked you in this thread. (I have asked you about five times and you diverting it each time makes you look super silly, its a very easy question).

How did you come across the article.

[Brillopad]

Thats not relevant to the one and only question i have asked you in this thread. (I have asked you about five times and you diverting it each time makes you look super silly, its a very easy question).

How did you come across the article.

Another interesting one - Muslim dynamics in Europe by The Middle East Quarterly.

[Withano]

Another interesting one - Muslim dynamics in Europe by The Middle East Quarterly.

Anything can be true with confirmation bias like yours.

[Brillopad]

Thats not relevant to the one and only question i have asked you in this thread. (I have asked you about five times and you diverting it each time makes you look super silly, its a very easy question).

How did you come across the article.

I just told you - I typed in Islamic immigration in the West. What is so controversial about that?

[Withano]

I just told you - I typed in Islamic immigration in the West. What is so controversial about that?

Anything can be true with confirmation bias like yours.

.
Thanks for clearing that up.

[Brillopad]

.
Thanks for clearing that up.

No DM articles there. Just factual-based articles from credible sources - but if you don't want to be educated with such facts , more fool you.

[Withano]

No DM articles there. Just factual-based articles from credible sources - but if you don't want to be educated with such facts , more fool you.

To be fair, I just read the original scientific publication and n=21 and alpha=<.7

Although your article was technically accurate in reporting the findings, they failed to mention what the finding actually show (an inconclusive dataset with inconsistent questions and too few participants). conclusions can not be drawn with this data set.

[Tom4784]

It's just hysteria really.

Most of the 'facts' presented in the article are unqualified and thus untrustworthy and the study it quotes figures is dubious at best.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/european-research-on-religious-fundamentalism-criticised

The title of the article is enough to call bull**** on it alone.

[Brillopad]

It's just hysteria really.

Most of the 'facts' presented in the article are unqualified and thus untrustworthy and the study it quotes figures is dubious at best.

http://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/european-research-on-religious-fundamentalism-criticised

The title of the article is enough to call bull**** on it alone.

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

[Withano]

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

The study was not even deemed internally reliable by the person who created it, let alone his critics
You cant have a differering interpretation, opinion or motivation on a cronbach alpha score. It just is what it is. Undeniably internally unreliable. The original author does not suggest otherwise, he'd be ridiculed even more so if he did.
The article you found on the study, whether you like this or not, was biased. There are tens of things wrong with the best of published studies, and your author declared zero for this obscure one. This study has a hell of a lot more than ten things wrong with it lol. The questions, for one, must be deemed unreliable for every single person who wishes to interpret them based on the alpha score, including the guy who wrote the original publication. All interpretations afterwards are based on unreliable questions and should not be taken entirely seriously... even if you read some article about it made by some bloke with a biased agenda, and a clickbait title

[Tom4784]

It is a valid study. Criticism of such studies is not unusual due to interpretation, opinion and motivation. What it does demonstrate is there is no room for complacency on this issue as the effectiveness on Islamic integration is still an unnown quantity and requires further monitoring and study.

Except it isn't a valid study.

The results are skewed and you can't deny that although you will because of confirmation bias.

[Brillopad]

Except it isn't a valid study.

The results are skewed and you can't deny that although you will because of confirmation bias.

Let's be clear that confirmation bias works equally both ways, so you will have a bias for info that supports your views and so will I. No doubt the article that criticised the study I presented will likely have also received criticism of its comments/criticism from elsewhere.

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc. A study can be challenged years down the line when new info or ideas come to light - little is written in stone on things like this. It isn't like diagnosing a medical condition or stating that the world is round.

There are other studies that have expressed similar concerns - it isn't just one study. To attempt to dismiss all concerns as either racism or stupidity is just words with an agenda and worse than the worst study and achieves nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

[Tom4784]

Let's be clear that confirmation bias works equally both ways, so you will have a bias for info that supports your views and so will I. No doubt the comments that criticised the study I presented will likely have also received criticism of its comments/criticism from elsewhere.

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc. A study can be challenged years down the line when new info or ideas come to light - little is written in stone on things like this. It isn't like diagnosing a medical condition or stating that the world is round.

There are other studies that have expressed similar concerns - it isn't just one study. To attempt to dismiss all concerns as either racism or stupidity is just words with an agenda and worse than the worst study and achieves nothing but adding fuel to the fire.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

The results themselves are skewed, the people interviewed were only migrants from Morroco and Turkey, you cannot ignore the broad range of muslim people in Europe and make claims based on only a sample selection that isn't representative of Muslims as a whole. It'd be like interviewing a bunch of British racists and releasing a study saying that the UK as a whole is racist based on that sample. It's utter foolishness and that's why this study has been dragged through the mud.

If you think poking valid holes in a flawed study is confirmation bias then you don't understand what confirmation bias is, you can't just explain away what is an incredibly flawed study by saying that the flaws are basically a matter of opinion when they aren't. You can't also say 'there are other studies that expressed similar concerns' without actually linking them, the only study that's been presented in this topic is the one in the article and it's already been proven as flawed and unreliable.

The article is biased, inflammatory and the only figures it backs up are from a study that's easily discredited. It's a worthless clickbait article with no real merit.

[Withano]

My point being there is always someone who will have a different view who will point out any perceived inconsistencies/bias/procedural inaccuracies etc.

This is a Hugh unknown area and complacency is foolhardy. At the end of the day there is no proven right or wrong - only viewpoint.

This isn't true though which is the point you missed about twelve times. There is no second way to perceive a statistical analysis. The questions in this dataset are undoubtedly internally unreliable in literally everyone's mind, including the mind of the initial researcher. The author of your article ignores this fact (not opinion, fact) and has mislead you into believing exactly what you searched out to look for. Which is kinda how confirmation bias works.

[jaxie]

The vast majority of FGM is carried out in Northern African countries and has been going on for over 2000 years - since before the birth of Christianity, let alone Islam - so is almost certainly rooted in once-obscure tribal traditions, and would be going on in those areas regardless of the majority religion. Like a horrific "Christmas Tree", I suppose.

But let's not let pesky facts get in the way of a good bit of anti-islam rhetoric.

Unfortunately British girls are taken out of this country to have FGM and then returned. And yet there has never been one prosecution.

'Fifty girls' taken from UK to Somalia for FGM (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33572428)

FGM is banned but very much alive in the UK (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/06/female-genital-mutilation-foreign-crime-common-uk)

"It's a custom that is very much alive, not just in home countries but in Scotland," says Anela Anwar, from the Glasgow-based charity Roshni. "People have given us information saying girls are being cut in Scotland or we hear that girls are taken back home to be cut over the summer holidays."

FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1985, and since 2003 anyone taking a child out of the UK to be cut faces 14 years in prison. However, there has yet to be a single conviction. Two people were arrested in November accused of carrying out FGM on a five-week-old baby but, according to the Metropolitan police, there was "insufficient evidence to proceed".

[Niamh.]

Unfortunately British girls are taken out of this country to have FGM and then returned. And yet there has never been one prosecution.

'Fifty girls' taken from UK to Somalia for FGM (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33572428)

FGM is banned but very much alive in the UK (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/06/female-genital-mutilation-foreign-crime-common-uk)

"It's a custom that is very much alive, not just in home countries but in Scotland," says Anela Anwar, from the Glasgow-based charity Roshni. "People have given us information saying girls are being cut in Scotland or we hear that girls are taken back home to be cut over the summer holidays."

FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1985, and since 2003 anyone taking a child out of the UK to be cut faces 14 years in prison. However, there has yet to be a single conviction. Two people were arrested in November accused of carrying out FGM on a five-week-old baby but, according to the Metropolitan police, there was "insufficient evidence to proceed".

How do they prove this though is the question? unless the girl reports it and actually shows them which is probably unlikely

[Brillopad]

This isn't true though which is the point you missed about twelve times. There is no second way to perceive a statistical analysis. The questions in this dataset are undoubtedly internally unreliable in literally everyone's mind, including the mind of the initial researcher. The author of your article ignores this fact (not opinion, fact) and has mislead you into believing exactly what you searched out to look for. Which is kinda how confirmation bias works.

And you think different questions will turn around the conclusions. All the problems experienced throughout the West suggest differently. Constantly attempting to undermine my views won't change that.

[jaxie]

How do they prove this though is the question? unless the girl reports it and actually shows them which is probably unlikely

I believe some of it comes out because NHS after care is often needed to mutilated little girls so it's not without medical proof. I think they just choose not to prosecute because often it's a parent involved. I would argue it's no different from any other form of child abuse.

Surely taking your child to have their privates cut up is as bad as beating them up or other forms of assault?

[Brillopad]

I believe some of it comes out because NHS after care is often needed to mutilated little girls so it's not without medical proof. I think they just choose not to prosecute because often it's a parent involved. I would argue it's no different from any other form of child abuse.

Surely taking your child to have their privates cut up is as bad as beating them up or other forms of assault?

You would think so wouldn't you. But an underlying current of PC is still prioritising religious freedom over child welfare, especially when it involves girls.

This country needs to get their priorities right and stand up to this madness.

[Kizzy]

You can't equate one with the other. Male circumcision is widely used in a surgical way for heath rather than a religion observance. Most men in the US are circumcised but not for relgiious reasons. It's not like having your clitoris hacked off with a pair of scissors. There's no justification for FGM.

This isn't an anti-Muslim stance from me, it's reasons why people who live in backward countries - like the countries who carry out FGM - don't have much time for the west.

If it were religious observance and not a cultural one then all Muslim countries would practice surely?

[Kizzy]

I have a new term colonophobia, the refusal to acknowledge the colonial crimes past and present of the 'empire'.

[Niamh.]

I believe some of it comes out because NHS after care is often needed to mutilated little girls so it's not without medical proof. I think they just choose not to prosecute because often it's a parent involved. I would argue it's no different from any other form of child abuse.

Surely taking your child to have their privates cut up is as bad as beating them up or other forms of assault?
Oh of course, its barbaric i completly agree, I hadnt thought of the example you gave, I just wondered how theyd fi d out but thats a good example you gave

[Withano]

And you think different questions will turn around the conclusions. All the problems experienced throughout the West suggest differently. Constantly attempting to undermine my views won't change that.

No conclusions can be drawn on this data set. Yes different questions are. needed to rectify this, the current questions were statistically founded to not be reliable inside the original publication and every critique afterwards. Nobody is trying to undermine you, you have genuinely missed the point multiple times by convincing yourself that the article about the publication is true through no clear argument. The article deliberately mislead you into thinking that way, by inaccurately reporting the findings of the publication.
You can have your opinion sure. The original publication does not support your opinions. This is the problem with confirmation bias. Anything can be true by typing it into google and refusing to fact check.

[jaxie]

If it were religious observance and not a cultural one then all Muslim countries would practice surely?

I personally don't really care about nitpicking over whether it's 'cultural' or 'religious'. I'm more concerned that's it's barbaric, horrific, agonising, and life changing.

[Brillopad]

No conclusions can be drawn on this data set. Yes different questions are. needed to rectify this, the current questions were statistically founded to not be reliable inside the original publication and every critique afterwards. Nobody is trying to undermine you, you have genuinely missed the point multiple times by convincing yourself that the article about the publication is true through no clear argument. The article deliberately mislead you into thinking that way, by inaccurately reporting the findings of the publication.
You can have your opinion sure. The original publication does not support your opinions. This is the problem with confirmation bias. Anything can be true by typing it into google and refusing to fact check.

Don't patronise me - I don't just type in some inflammatory title and go for the first thing that comes up. I have been to uni too you know and am familiar with referencing and credible sources.

It was a legitimate article from a credible source. Apparently there has been criticism of the type of questions asked and the backgrounds of the target group i.e. Turkish and Moroccan Muslims but I don't personally believe that would have made a Hugh difference to the outcome.

Add to that all the problems occurring across the West with Muslims from other countries, it doesn't seem likely that using a slighting different demographic and a change in wording would produce a significant change, although some clearly want to believe it would.

[jaxie]

Oh of course, its barbaric i completly agree, I hadnt thought of the example you gave, I just wondered how theyd fi d out but thats a good example you gave

Some little girls get nasty infections and die.

Also it gets found out a few years later as young women start to have sex and children and obviously the having children involves going to hospital or problems having sex mean consulting a doctor.

I think they should make this a crime even after some years have passed. The only way to stop it is to come down on it and show there are consequences even in say 10 years after the fact when you take your little girl to have this done to them. There isn't much we can do about other countries practices but surely we can stop little girls who are British being taken on FGM 'holidays'.

[Tom4784]

Don't patronise me - I don't just type in some inflammatory title and go for the first thing that comes up. I have been to uni too you know and am familiar with referencing and credible sources.

It was a legitimate article from a credible source. Apparently there has been criticism of the type of questions asked and the backgrounds of the target group i.e. Turkish and Moroccan Muslims but I don't personally believe that would have made a Hugh difference to the outcome.

Add to that all the problems occurring across the West with Muslims from other countries, it doesn't seem likely that using a slighting different demographic and a change in wording would produce a significant change, although some clearly want to believe it would.

Except the source of which all the statistics in that article stem from has been discredited by the flawed way it was carried out. Plus any website that would allow such a problematic, untrue and hole filled article such as that is not a credible source. No balanced or credible source would touch that article for it's headline alone, nevermind the problematic content of the article itself.

You can cling to it all you want but it's not going to change anything, the article is confirmation bias trash and if you're going to disregard all the faults with it because it's content suits your own agenda then you have lost this debate.

[Brillopad]

Some little girls get nasty infections and die.

Also it gets found out a few years later as young women start to have sex and children and obviously the having children involves going to hospital or problems having sex mean consulting a doctor.

I think they should make this a crime even after some years have passed. The only way to stop it is to come down on it and show there are consequences even in say 10 years after the fact when you take your little girl to have this done to them. There isn't much we can do about other countries practices but surely we can stop little girls who are British being taken on FGM 'holidays'.

Talk about the 'holiday' from hell. The disgusting controlling behaviours of male dominated societies. Makes me sick.

[Niamh.]

Some little girls get nasty infections and die.

Also it gets found out a few years later as young women start to have sex and children and obviously the having children involves going to hospital or problems having sex mean consulting a doctor.

I think they should make this a crime even after some years have passed. The only way to stop it is to come down on it and show there are consequences even in say 10 years after the fact when you take your little girl to have this done to them. There isn't much we can do about other countries practices but surely we can stop little girls who are British being taken on FGM 'holidays'.
Yes I totally agree

[Vicky.]

I cannot believe there have never been any convictions for FGM. Disgusting practice, totally unnecessary and absolutely child abuse.

[Brillopad]

Except the source of which all the statistics in that article stem from has been discredited by the flawed way it was carried out. Plus any website that would allow such a problematic, untrue and hole filled article such as that is not a credible source. No balanced or credible source would touch that article for it's headline alone, nevermind the problematic content of the article itself.

You can cling to it all you want but it's not going to change anything, the article is confirmation bias trash and if you're going to disregard all the faults with it because it's content suits your own agenda then you have lost this debate.

No comment on the other article I mentioned then. Although older, 2009, it documented the history of Muslim immigration and the problems associated with it for many years, including how genuine refugee status has been watered down and abused and is endangering the welfare of those most in need.

[Tom4784]

No comment on the other article I mentioned then. Although older, 2009, it documented the history of Muslim immigration and the problems associated with it for many years, including how genuine refugee status has been watered down and abused and is endangering the welfare of those most in need.

Unless you have a link to it then it's worthless since it could very well be more trashy confirmation bias like this article was.

[Brillopad]

Unless you have a link to it then it's worthless since it could very well be more trashy confirmation bias like this article was.

For the record 'Islamic migration in the West' is hardly an inflammatory title, which is what I keyed in. The article wasn't trashy - big difference between a limited demographic and trashy - and you talk of inflammatory wording.

'Europe's Shifting Immigration Dynamic ' also is hardly inflammatory and The Middle East Quarterly is also a credible source. You do try.

[Tom4784]

For the record 'Islamic migration in the West' is hardly an inflammatory title, which is what I keyed in. The article wasn't trashy - big difference between a limited demographic and trashy - and you talk of inflammatory wording.

'Europe's Shifting Immigration Dynamic ' also is hardly inflammatory and The Middle East Quarterly is also a credible source. You do try.

No links, no point. If you're going to make a point of mentioning an article to back up what you are saying then you have to link it.

Given the article you posted as gospel in this thread, I can only assume these other articles are of similar 'quality' especially how you seem so reluctant to post them. Unless you can provide links then they aren't worth mentioning.

[Brillopad]

No links, no point. If you're going to make a point of mentioning an article to back up what you are saying then you have to link it.

Given the article you posted as gospel in this thread, I can only assume these other articles are of similar 'quality' especially how you seem so reluctant to post them. Unless you can provide links then they aren't worth mentioning.

I am not reluctant but unable to post a link. Simply keying in Europe's shifting immigration dynamic and clicking on the Middle East Quarterly is all it takes.

[Tom4784]

I am not reluctant but unable to post a link. Simply keying in Europe's shifting immigration dynamic and clicking on the Middle East Quarterly is all it takes.

So any arguments related to these invisible articles should be disregarded then if you aren't willing to provide them to discuss.

[user104658]

I have a new term, colonophobia

...That kind of sounds like it would be about something else Kizzy :laugh:

[Brillopad]

So any arguments related to these invisible articles should be disregarded then if you aren't willing to provide them to discuss.

Whatever.

[Tom4784]

Whatever.

It's generally good practice to only bring up articles and proof if you actually have them on hand to qualify what you are saying.

[Withano]

It was a legitimate article from a credible source. Apparently there has been criticism of the type of questions asked and the backgrounds of the target group i.e. Turkish and Moroccan Muslims but I don't personally believe that would have made a Hugh difference to the outcome.
.

The independent statistical analysis made by the man who wrote the publication determined that the questions was unreliable. All of his interpretations are based from an unreliable survey and he acknowledges this. The article you provided in your original post does not.

The article you used was not legitimate. There were countless issues in the researchers method. your article made zero references with any of the many flaws in the publication. It was a biased article by somebody with a similar mindset to you. This person completely skirted arounf the facts of the publication to further his mindset.

I have never heard of the website before, I can take your word for its reputation. This individual article, however, horse****. Undeniably.

[Brillopad]

The independent statistical analysis made by the man who wrote the publication determined that the questions was unreliable. All of his interpretations are based from an unreliable survey and he acknowledges this. The article you provided in your original post does not.

The article you used was not legitimate. There were countless issues in the researchers method. your article made zero references with any of the many flaws in the publication. It was a biased article by somebody with a similar mindset to you. This person completely skirted arounf the facts of the publication to further his mindset.

I have never heard of the website before, I can take your word for its reputation. This individual article, however, horse****. Undeniably.

Yeah think you pretty much said this about twice already - what is this Groundhog Day or something or do you just like the sound of your own words. :nono:

[Withano]

Yeah think you pretty much said this about twice already - what is this Groundhog Day or something or do you just like the sound of your own words. :nono:

You continued to suggest it was a legitimate article. It was only natural to presume you still didnt understand what you misunderstood every other time.

[Kizzy]

I personally don't really care about nitpicking over whether it's 'cultural' or 'religious'. I'm more concerned that's it's barbaric, horrific, agonising, and life changing.

It isn't nitpicking the two are worlds apart, but if you don't care then that's your prerogative.

[Kizzy]

...That kind of sounds like it would be about something else Kizzy :laugh:

Fear of people with their heads stuck up their arses? :laugh: In which case I'm afflicted :hehe:

[Brillopad]

You continued to suggest it was a legitimate article. It was only natural to presume you still didnt understand what you misunderstood every other time.

I certainly don't misunderstand you. Toddle along now.

[Niamh.]

I saw this today and it made me think of this thread, it's from a magazine from 1889, looks like we were the Muslims of that era :worry: Look at that evil leprechaun :laugh:

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17362837_10155047485832200_4023832427822830402_n.j pg?oh=91d77b708538cbdf3ea01a2b73aa540c&oe=5967009C

https://herb.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/642

[user104658]

I saw this today and it made me think of this thread, it's from a magazine from 1889, looks like we were the Muslims of that era :worry: Look at that evil leprechaun :laugh:

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17362837_10155047485832200_4023832427822830402_n.j pg?oh=91d77b708538cbdf3ea01a2b73aa540c&oe=5967009C

https://herb.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/642


I mean being totally honest, that does look like most Irish people I've met...

[Brillopad]

I saw this today and it made me think of this thread, it's from a magazine from 1889, looks like we were the Muslims of that era :worry: Look at that evil leprechaun :laugh:

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17362837_10155047485832200_4023832427822830402_n.j pg?oh=91d77b708538cbdf3ea01a2b73aa540c&oe=5967009C

https://herb.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/642

Niamh, are you calling everyone with concerns about mass immigration 'evil leprechauns'? Tad OTT don't you think!!! :shrug:

[Niamh.]

Niamh, are you calling everyone with concerns about mass immigration 'evil leprechauns'? Tad OTT don't you think!!! :shrug:

umm no, I was posting this as it shows how the Irish immigrants were viewed in 1889, it reminded me of how Muslims are viewed in the States now

[Livia]

umm no, I was posting this as it shows how the Irish immigrants were viewed in 1889, it reminded me of how Muslims are viewed in the States now

Well... back the the irish weren't waging war on the west, so I think it is a little different.

[Niamh.]

Well... back the the irish weren't waging war on the west, so I think it is a little different.

Was there even a West back then?

[Livia]

Was there even a West back then?

Yeah, I'm thinking there was. But hey, my people have been treated like outcasts for thousands of years! It ain't so bad... come and sit here by me fellow outcast.

[Niamh.]

Yeah, I'm thinking there was. But hey, my people have been treated like outcasts for thousands of years! It ain't so bad... come and sit here by me fellow outcast.

:laugh:

[Wizard.]

Surely phobia implies that this is a innate fear rather than a radicalisation? Evolution instill phobias in us to protect us from harmful things / situations.

[arista]

"It's just hysteria really. "


Yes Dezzy , dear.

[user104658]

Surely phobia implies that this is a innate fear rather than a radicalisation? Evolution instill phobias in us to protect us from harmful things / situations.

It's a misnomer though; the term "phobia" is quite commonly misused these days. A phobia is an irrational fear when the truth is actually known, i.e. being afraid of something even though you, yourself, rationally know that it is not dangerous.

Things like homophobia / Islamophobia aren't accurately "phobias". Even though, objectively, the fear is irrational... for the subject, they are basing their fear on their true beliefs and often on misinformation that they, nonetheless, think is accurate... meaning that subjectively the fear is not irrational and therefore not a phobia.

[Tom4784]

"It's just hysteria really. "


Yes Dezzy , dear.

:love:

[Brillopad]

It's a misnomer though; the term "phobia" is quite commonly misused these days. A phobia is an irrational fear when the truth is actually known, i.e. being afraid of something even though you, yourself, rationally know that it is not dangerous.

Things like homophobia / Islamophobia aren't accurately "phobias". Even though, objectively, the fear is irrational... for the subject, they are basing their fear on their true beliefs and often on misinformation that they, nonetheless, think is accurate... meaning that subjectively the fear is not irrational and therefore not a phobia.

So their 'fears' are purely based on misinformation that they think is accurate - that statement in itself is opinion not fact. As you have a different opinion you are not likely to say anything else.

I would say that your opinions could equally be based on a 'fear' of 'Islamophobia' based on misinformation that you think is accurate. It is very easy to turn such comments around as they are subjective and largely opinion based.

[user104658]

So their 'fears' are purely based on misinformation that they think is accurate - that statement in itself is opinion not fact. As you have a different opinion you are not likely to say anything else.

I would say that your opinions could equally be based on a 'fear' of 'Islamophobia' based on misinformation that you think is accurate. It is very easy to turn such comments around as they are subjective and largely opinion based.

I said "often".

[Brillopad]

It isn't nitpicking the two are worlds apart, but if you don't care then that's your prerogative.

Don' know how you can say they are worlds apart when in most cases culture and religion are intrinsically linked. Religious ideology has a significant impact on culture and one can usually be identified by the other.

[Kizzy]

Don' know how you can say they are worlds apart when in most cases culture and religion are intrinsically linked. Religious ideology has a significant impact on culture and one can usually be identified by the other.

Are you suggesting civilised society can be identified by Christianity then?


:joker::joker::joker:

[Brillopad]

Any culture/religion maiming young girls in this way is repulsive. It is morally reprehensible and criminal. All this backward superstitious nonsense is what holds certain cultures/religions back and encourages dictatorships. The whole damn thing should be outlawed.

It's 2017 and many people still live in a time thousands of years ago. Why is it most cultures are able to progress but some can't. The fault is clearly with such cultures and the people with such mindsets. It cannot ever be tolerated here because of such ignorance.