Maddie McCann: Abduction theories blasted as 'ridiculous' by US crime expert

[Niamh.]

Scotland Yard has wasted almost $20 million investigating "ridiculous" theories that Madeleine McCann was abducted, according to a US criminal profiler.

Pat Brown, a profiler of cold cases in America and a regular guest on major US TV networks, said she was baffled by British police who failed to carry out a "proper investigation".

Operation Grange was launched by London Metropolitan Police in 2011, after Madeleine McCann vanished without trace from her family's Portuguese holiday apartment in May 2007.

The case, which continues to fascinate the world, remains unsolved


http://imageresizer.static9.net.au/NCvKRfeFNP74baXloIK3niWqlwA=/718x0/http%3a%2f%2fprod.static9.net.au%2f_%2fmedia%2fima ges%2f2017%2fmarch%2f1403_mccann_brown.ashx%3fw%3d 603


Scotland Yard has wasted almost $20 million investigating "ridiculous" theories that Madeleine McCann was abducted, according to a US criminal profiler.

Pat Brown, a profiler of cold cases in America and a regular guest on major US TV networks, said she was baffled by British police who failed to carry out a "proper investigation".

Operation Grange was launched by London Metropolitan Police in 2011, after Madeleine McCann vanished without trace from her family's Portuguese holiday apartment in May 2007.

The case, which continues to fascinate the world, remains unsolved.

US criminal profiler Pat Brown (right) appears on TV network CBS to discuss the Maddie McCann case in 2010. Source: CBS
US criminal profiler Pat Brown (right) appears on TV network CBS to discuss the Maddie McCann case in 2010. Source: CBS

"What Scotland Yard was doing was not a proper investigation," Brown told Nine.com.au.

"Scotland Yard went in saying the McCanns are not suspects, and that [the disappearance of Maddie] is an abduction. There is absolutely no way you should have entered an investigation saying that."

Scotland Yard is one of the world's most respected crime fighting agencies, making its approach doubly confusing, Brown said.

"Their focus has always been there was an abduction and we're going after a kidnapper."

Everyone, including parents Gerry and Kate, should have been suspects when Operation Grange was opened following a 2011 request by now British Prime Minister Theresa May, Brown said.

"They spent a tremendous amount of time following the most ridiculous leads ever. It was like watching a massive charade.

"To this day it's made no sense. They've spent an incredible sum of money going absolutely nowhere, coming up with absolutely nothing – not even a piece of evidence to add to the evidence we already know about."

This week Operation Grange was granted another $137,200 to cover operational costs through to September 17, a period that will include the 10th anniversary of Maddie's disappearance on May 3, 2007.


An unnamed source inside Operation Grange, which to date has been funded to the tune of $17.9m by the British government, claimed it was "a last throw of the dice".

Brown told Nine.com.au she believed Scotland Yard was handed a political football, where the results of the investigation did not matter.

The American profiler has spent countless hours poring over the entirety of official case files that were released by Portugal's Policia Judiciaria. She has also visited the town of Praia Da Luz.

Policia Judiciaria investigated the disappearance of Maddie, who would now be aged 13, between 4 May 2007 and 21 July 2008.


In September 2007 Gerry and Kate were sensationally named as 'arguidos' (a person being questioned under caution) by Portuguese police.

Goncalo Amaral, the detective who headed up the original investigation, claimed Gerry and Kate McCann covered up their daughter’s death in his book and a documentary.

The McCanns, who have always staunchly declared their innocence, last month lost their court battle to silence the former detective.

Brown met with Amaral while she was in Praia Da Luz, exploring key locations and surrounding areas relating to the case.

"There is evidence to lead one to believe the top theory should be Madeleine is dead," declared Brown.


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/14/14/50/maddie-madeleine-mccann-abduction-theories-blasted-as-ridiculous-by-us-crime-expert-pat-brown#ZLijk7PWIQWPvluu.99

[chuff me dizzy]

The only people ever have to have claimed abduction is McCanns

[user104658]

The only people ever have to have claimed abduction is McCanns

And LT of course.

[Alf]

What are you do here in off-season Chuff?

[Niamh.]

What are you do here in off-season Chuff?

I lured her back with a sneaky McCann thread :fan:

[chuff me dizzy]

I lured her back with a sneaky McCann thread :fan:

I only come on off season to read messages and spotted this thread :joker:

[chuff me dizzy]

And LT of course.

I think he a wind up merchant no one with half a brain believes McCanns

[Vicky.]

There is absolutely no proof of abduction besides Kates word that the window was open, even though the bright sparks closed the window before police came, allegedly :rolleyes:

I don't understand why Scotland Yard are pissing about. I am starting to think they only want funding so they can go lounge around in a hot country and be paid for it tbh. The whole investigation is a disgrace. Surely the police aren't as thick as they appear. It was OUR police who sent in the dogs...so they must have had an idea way back then what happened ffs. Its all so irritating now. Either charge the guilty ones or leave the damn thing alone. Stop expecting people to believe this bull**** about burglaries gone wrong and stuff. Burglars do not take dead children...or live children. 'Nothing of value was taken' says Gerry. Odd burglars eh?

The abduction theory is the 'conspiracy' in this case IMO. As 'conspiracies' have no evidence and actually go against evidence. In this case the only evidence available says the child died in that apartment. Make of that what you will but the abduction theory is just ridiculous and based on nothing but the McCanns word. No wonder police abandoned that line of thinking pretty early on as it became obvious it was bull.

I think I love Pat Brown.

[Niamh.]

There is absolutely no proof of abduction besides Kates word that the window was open, even though the bright sparks closed the window before police came, allegedly :rolleyes:

I don't understand why Scotland Yard are pissing about. I am starting to think they only want funding so they can go lounge around in a hot country and be paid for it tbh. The whole investigation is a disgrace. Surely the police aren't as thick as they appear. It was OUR police who sent in the dogs...so they must have had an idea way back then what happened ffs. Its all so irritating now. Either charge the guilty ones or leave the damn thing alone. Stop expecting people to believe this bull**** about burglaries gone wrong and stuff. Burglars do not take dead children...or live children. 'Nothing of value was taken' says Gerry. Odd burglars eh?

The abduction theory is the 'conspiracy' in this case IMO. As 'conspiracies' have no evidence and actually go against evidence. In this case the only evidence available says the child died in that apartment. Make of that what you will but the abduction theory is just ridiculous and based on nothing but the McCanns word. No wonder police abandoned that line of thinking pretty early on as it became obvious it was bull.

I think I love Pat Brown.

She's very interesting actually. Everything she says makes so much more sense then what the McCanns and Scotland Yard want us to believe

[ebandit]

ok? which is the most ridiculous 'the abduction theory'.....or the 'accidental death theory'

..............after giving this further thought i fear that the truth is more sinister

...............what have the mc canns to fear to create such a cover up?

...............i doubt that even their friends know the truth and have been kept in the dark
as much as others.............................if the truth was known such a big secret would not
stay secret for long..........

..............i even wonder if both mc canns know the full truth....................who knows?
not me that's for sure.............................

Mark L

[longstar]

how many children have disappeared in this country, alot, and never to be seen again, scotland yard has a track record of hushing up child killings and abductions, even the disappeared, if people think that maddie was abducted by some random person then they are wrong, that abduction had to take alot of planing and a number of people to make sure it went smoothly, it might of been a very powerful satanic ring that had abducted her and then killed her and disposed her body, or it might be a very powerful pedo gang that get people to snatch children from there beds and its most likely that she was killed after being abused, if you look at the case of marc dutroux, there was mass cover ups by the police and it has came out now that he did not act alone in his crimes, and he was part of a pedo gang that was trafficking children as far as poland in the middle 90s, if you look at the april jones killing, her body was never found, but if you think that it was just one person that killed her then think again, the april jones case was just not your typical child killing murder case as much as maddie's abduction case was the typical one,

[Marsh.]

What are you do here in off-season Chuff?

Niamh said "Maddie McCann" into the mirror three times.

[thesheriff443]

Look the police don't just take some ones word for what happened, if there was the evidence that was grounds to charge the mcanns they would of done.
Mistakes have been made, but until evidence is found I reserve my judgment.

[the truth]

Look the police don't just take some ones word for what happened, if there was the evidence that was grounds to charge the mcanns they would of done.
Mistakes have been made, but until evidence is found I reserve my judgment.

I dont, they are appalling parents and this is a disgraceful waste of tax payers money and police resources these scarce resources could have been allocated to the 10000s of other missing persons out there , who are no less important than the macanns

[Brillopad]

Look the police don't just take some ones word for what happened, if there was the evidence that was grounds to charge the mcanns they would of done.
Mistakes have been made, but until evidence is found I reserve my judgment.

I completely agree!

This case reminds me of that case in Australia with the baby and the dingo. The mother, Lindsay Chamberlain, was put through hell and many Australians were quick to judge and condemn her, she even went to jail - but eventually evidence was found that corroborated her version of events.

The poor woman had lost her only daughter and given little time to grieve before the muck-rackers waded in and found her guilty based on speculation rather than fact. It seems the general public like to automatically think the worst of people, especially mothers. Britain it seems have learned no lessons from that!

[Jamie89]

Look the police don't just take some ones word for what happened, if there was the evidence that was grounds to charge the mcanns they would of done.
Mistakes have been made, but until evidence is found I reserve my judgment.

I felt a similar way but Niamh kind of changed my mind on it lol... there is really strong evidence against them but no evidence that supports the abduction theory. I haven't read up on it as much as some others but I think there's reasons why they have never been charged that are more to do with procedural errors, and I don't think they've ever actually been cleared of wrong doing.

I completely agree!

This case reminds me of that case in Australia with the baby and the dingo. The mother, Lindsay Chamberlain, was put through hell and many Australians were quick to judge and condemn her, she even went to jail - but eventually evidence was found that corroborated her version of events.

The poor woman had lost her only daughter and given little time to grieve before the muck-rackers waded in and found her guilty based on speculation rather than fact. It seems the general public like to automatically think the worst of people, especially mothers. Britain it seems have learned no lessons from that!

I thought that was the main factor in suspicions against the McCanns too (and tbh a lot of people would probably suspect them due to that regardless so it's not that it's untrue), but I do think this case is very different to any other examples, and there is very good reason to suspect them. And I think the opposite could also be said, that some people don't want to believe that parents could do something like that, so basing it on emotions about the case rather than the actual evidence.

[Brillopad]

I felt a similar way but Niamh kind of changed my mind on it lol... there is really strong evidence against them but no evidence that supports the abduction theory. I haven't read up on it as much as some others but I think there's reasons why they have never been charged that are more to do with procedural errors, and I don't think they've ever actually been cleared of wrong doing.



I thought that was the main factor in suspicions against the McCanns too (and tbh a lot of people would probably suspect them due to that regardless so it's not that it's untrue), but I do think this case is very different to any other examples, and there is very good reason to suspect them. And I think the opposite could also be said, that some people don't want to believe that parents could do something like that, so basing it on emotions about the case rather than the actual evidence.

I honestly don't know, it's a very difficult one - you may be right that emotions can get in the way.

The public don't have a good track record on their reaction to cases like this and I find it very difficult to believe Maddie's parents would have either harmed their daughter or tried to cover up an accident or poor decision on their part i.e. Drugging her.

In this case I do prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt until concrete evidence proves me wrong.

[Niamh.]

Look the police don't just take some ones word for what happened, if there was the evidence that was grounds to charge the mcanns they would of done.
Mistakes have been made, but until evidence is found I reserve my judgment.

There was evidence found though and they were made suspects in Portugal and when they went to sue the cop who was in charge of the original investigation for saying that he thought all the evidence pointed them being involved they lost and were told that they had not been cleared of anything or "proved innocent" as they like to pretend

[Niamh.]

I dont, they are appalling parents and this is a disgraceful waste of tax payers money and police resources these scarce resources could have been allocated to the 10000s of other missing persons out there , who are no less important than the macanns

mmhhmm but apparently the McCanns are much more important for some odd reason

[Niamh.]

I completely agree!

This case reminds me of that case in Australia with the baby and the dingo. The mother, Lindsay Chamberlain, was put through hell and many Australians were quick to judge and condemn her, she even went to jail - but eventually evidence was found that corroborated her version of events.

The poor woman had lost her only daughter and given little time to grieve before the muck-rackers waded in and found her guilty based on speculation rather than fact. It seems the general public like to automatically think the worst of people, especially mothers. Britain it seems have learned no lessons from that!

That's not really true, I never heard anyone say they thought Ben Needams mother was guilty in her sons disappearance and regarding the McCanns, Gerry gets as much if not more blame as Kate

[Brillopad]

That's not really true, I never heard anyone say they thought Ben Needams mother was guilty in her sons disappearance and regarding the McCanns, Gerry gets as much if not more blame as Kate

I'm not sure but I don't Ben's mother wasn't present at the time he disappeared - wasn't he at his grandparents?

[Niamh.]

I'm not sure but I don't Ben's mother wasn't present at the time he disappeared - wasn't he at his grandparents?

Oh yeah, ok his grand parents were never accused then. Look I know it's an awful thing to think that parents were involved in some way, as a parent myself I know it's a terrible thing to think but when you do actually read up on the case and I mean the actual Police files which are publicly available, the only actual evidence found points to Madeleine having died in that apartment and from the minute that evidence was found the McCanns tried discredit it and why would they if they had no idea what happened to her? Like if they really were completely clueless and evidence that she may have died in the apartment came up wouldn't they want to investigate that?, also their Police Statements and their friends statements are very inconsistent too. It's about justice for a 3 year old little girl

[Jamie89]

I honestly don't know, it's a very difficult one - you may be right that emotions can get in the way.

The public don't have a good track record on their reaction to cases like this and I find it very difficult to believe Maddie's parents would have either harmed their daughter or tried to cover up an accident or poor decision on their part i.e. Drugging her.

In this case I do prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt until concrete evidence proves me wrong.

I can only speak for myself but it was certainly the case for me.
I remember when it first made the news and before there was anything that suggested they might have been involved, my mum saying something like "hmm I bet the parents had something to do with it" :laugh: because she's a 'think the worst of people' kind of person, so I think I've always felt a bit like suspicions of them had more to do with cynicism and wanting to think the worst than anything else, and I wanted to think they wouldn't have been involved. I'm not 100% either way on it though and I'm the same that I'd want concrete evidence to be convinced, so I still think the abduction theory could be true (although I think it's very unlikely), but mainly where I've changed my opinion on it is with thinking that people who are strongly convinced that the McCanns were involved in a cover up actually have a lot to reasonably back that up.

[Niamh.]

I can only speak for myself but it was certainly the case for me.
I remember when it first made the news and before there was anything that suggested they might have been involved, my mum saying something like "hmm I bet the parents had something to do with it" :laugh: because she's a 'think the worst of people' kind of person, so I think I've always felt a bit like suspicions of them had more to do with cynicism and wanting to think the worst than anything else, and I wanted to think they wouldn't have been involved. I'm not 100% either way on it though and I'm the same that I'd want concrete evidence to be convinced, so I still think the abduction theory could be true (although I think it's very unlikely), but mainly where I've changed my opinion on it is with thinking that people who are strongly convinced that the McCanns were involved in a cover up actually have a lot to reasonably back that up.

I'm honestly not a "think the worst" kind of person at all eventhough statistically it's much more likely in a case like this to do with a child that family members or friends are involved than a complete opportunistic stranger. I never suspected them of having been involved until other people were going on about it and urging me to read up a bit more on it.

before I did that I believed they were certainly guilty of neglect but I did buy into the abduction theory

[Brillopad]

Oh yeah, ok his grand parents were never accused then. Look I know it's an awful thing to think that parents were involved in some way, as a parent myself I know it's a terrible thing to think but when you do actually read up on the case and I mean the actual Police files which are publicly available, the only actual evidence found points to Madeleine having died in that apartment and from the minute that evidence was found the McCanns tried discredit it and why would they if they had no idea what happened to her? Like if they really were completely clueless and evidence that she may have died in the apartment came up wouldn't they want to investigate that?, also their Police Statements and their friends statements are very inconsistent too. It's about justice for a 3 year old little girl

Again, you may be right. I definitely do not believe they deliberately harmed her - why would they and what evidence is there for that?

If there was some kind of accident that they covered up I don't believe Maddie, if she understood, would want them to go to jail for years and leave her brother and sister without their parents. If an accident I think they have all suffered enough.

It wouldn't make their actions right or forgivable but to hang them out to dry would benefit no one in my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Again, you may be right. I definitely do not believe they deliberately harmed her - why would they and what evidence is there for that?

If there was some kind of accident that they covered up I don't believe Maddie, if she understood, would want them to go to jail for years and leave her brother and sister without their parents. If an accident I think they have all suffered enough.

It wouldn't make their actions right or forgivable but to hang them out to dry would benefit no one in my opinion.

I don't believe they deliberately harmed her either but I certainly believe the truth should come out and they should face justice. Not only have they covered it up but look at all the money they've wasted, that's your money, tax payers money and it runs in to the millions now not to mention they tried to ruin Goncalo Amarals life as well, they need to face justice for all of those things imo

[Niamh.]

There is absolutely no proof of abduction besides Kates word that the window was open, even though the bright sparks closed the window before police came, allegedly :rolleyes:

I don't understand why Scotland Yard are pissing about. I am starting to think they only want funding so they can go lounge around in a hot country and be paid for it tbh. The whole investigation is a disgrace. Surely the police aren't as thick as they appear. It was OUR police who sent in the dogs...so they must have had an idea way back then what happened ffs. Its all so irritating now. Either charge the guilty ones or leave the damn thing alone. Stop expecting people to believe this bull**** about burglaries gone wrong and stuff. Burglars do not take dead children...or live children. 'Nothing of value was taken' says Gerry. Odd burglars eh?

The abduction theory is the 'conspiracy' in this case IMO. As 'conspiracies' have no evidence and actually go against evidence. In this case the only evidence available says the child died in that apartment. Make of that what you will but the abduction theory is just ridiculous and based on nothing but the McCanns word. No wonder police abandoned that line of thinking pretty early on as it became obvious it was bull.

I think I love Pat Brown.

She makes a great point here too Vicky :

Ms Brown said it was “extremely unlikely” anyone from a child sex ring would have abducted Madeleine. She said children could be illegally bought in some poor areas or “easily taken from drug addicts and prostitutes”.
“Even blonde ones,” she said.
‘They’re not going to steal a British tourist from a holiday resort because they know that will prompt a major investigation into them.”

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/the-only-madeleine-mccann-theory-that-stacks-up/news-story/44291faa8d69db7e9d6b6a40fe4b5205

[Glenn.]

'Nothing of value was taken' says Gerry. Odd burglars eh?


Poor Maddie

[user104658]

I don't believe they deliberately harmed her either but I certainly believe the truth should come out and they should face justice. Not only have they covered it up but look at all the money they've wasted, that's your money, tax payers money and it runs in to the millions now not to mention they tried to ruin Goncalo Amarals life as well, they need to face justice for all of those things imo

That's my thinking really. I think it was an accident and if it had all come out at the time, I would feel awful for them as parents. I'd be pretty horrified about them going out and leaving the kids etc. but losing a child is worse than any prison sentence or other punishment so I wouldn't be that concerned about them facing the full force of the law.

But for everything they've done since? Something has to come of that. The message that covering something up, to this extent, is in any way OK... can't be allowed.

[Niamh.]

That's my thinking really. I think it was an accident and if it had all come out at the time, I would feel awful for them as parents. I'd be pretty horrified about them going out and leaving the kids etc. but losing a child is worse than any prison sentence or other punishment so I wouldn't be that concerned about them facing the full force of the law.

But for everything they've done since? Something has to come of that. The message that covering something up, to this extent, is in any way OK... can't be allowed.

Exactly and it wouldn't have been either if it were a couple from a council estate or something

[Smithy]

Poor Maddie

Ffs :joker::joker::joker:

[ebandit]

..............what sort of accident within the apartment could lead to death?

..............accident would more likely result in injury /need for urgent medical assistance

Mark L

[Niamh.]

..............what sort of accident within the apartment could lead to death?

..............accident would more likely result in injury /need for urgent medical assistance

Mark L

She could have fallen off the back of the couch and hit her head off the tiled floor or broken her neck. Behind the couch is where blood splatter and cadaver odour was found by the dogs

[ebandit]

..............to myself that seems very unlikely....such a short fall

................you see kiddies fall further all the time...cry awhile then run on

Mark L

[Niamh.]

..............to myself that seems very unlikely....such a short fall

................you see kiddies fall further all the time...cry awhile then run on

Mark L

Just because 9 times out of 10 a fall won't kill a child doesn't mean that it never happens, in fact I would say it's far more common than a stranger breaking into an apartment and kidnapping a child :shrug: She could have landed awkwardly and the floor was tiled

[Vicky.]

Yup. Fall from sofa (while sedated, IMO..the reason for the coverup) is far more likely than the houdini abductor who also shuffled his way between the twins' cots to open a window for no reason at all...just to waste some time even though he came in through the open door...that had been left open incase madeleine awoke and wanted to find her parents, though it is claimed that NO WAY would she have been able to leave the place on her own :confused:

[Niamh.]

Yup. Fall from sofa (while sedated, IMO..the reason for the coverup) is far more likely than the houdini abductor who also shuffled his way between the twins' cots to open a window for no reason at all...just to waste some time even though he came in through the open door...that had been left open incase madeleine awoke and wanted to find her parents, though it is claimed that NO WAY would she have been able to leave the place on her own :confused:

a mass of contradictions

[the truth]

Yup. Fall from sofa (while sedated, IMO..the reason for the coverup) is far more likely than the houdini abductor who also shuffled his way between the twins' cots to open a window for no reason at all...just to waste some time even though he came in through the open door...that had been left open incase madeleine awoke and wanted to find her parents, though it is claimed that NO WAY would she have been able to leave the place on her own :confused:

exactly

[chuff me dizzy]

From night 1 there was political interference in the McCann case ( Why no one knows,but it happened ) without the help they would have been locked up 10 yrs ago

As for Pat Brown ( a woman Ive had lots of conversations with ) Im not a fan, she pops in and out of the Maddie case when it suits her

[chuff me dizzy]

Yup. Fall from sofa (while sedated, IMO..the reason for the coverup) is far more likely than the houdini abductor who also shuffled his way between the twins' cots to open a window for no reason at all...just to waste some time even though he came in through the open door...that had been left open incase madeleine awoke and wanted to find her parents, though it is claimed that NO WAY would she have been able to leave the place on her own :confused:

IMO Maddie was abused (Payne ,Gaspar statements )this is why her medical records have never been shown and explains the fear and embarrassment in her face in the Snow White video ,I think Kate lashed out at her in temper ,knocking her behind the sofa where blood splatter was found

[ebandit]

................i too think the parents are more directly responsible............

imagine? the parents arriving home to find maddie injured/dead

.......they panic! unlikely they would panic! and think 'let's cover this up'

more likely...they panic! and rush maddie to nearest medical centre

even if there was no pulse a parent would hope for resuscitation even when hope

is gone................

Mark L

[Niamh.]

................i too think the parents are more directly responsible............

imagine? the parents arriving home to find maddie injured/dead

.......they panic! unlikely they would panic! and think 'let's cover this up'

more likely...they panic! and rush maddie to nearest medical centre

even if there was no pulse a parent would hope for resuscitation even when hope

is gone................

Mark L
Most parents would yes but that doesnt mean all would

[Brillopad]

IMO Maddie was abused (Payne ,Gaspar statements )this is why her medical records have never been shown and explains the fear and embarrassment in her face in the Snow White video ,I think Kate lashed out at her in temper ,knocking her behind the sofa where blood splatter was found

That is a hell of an accusation and completely unfounded as far as I can see.

[Vicky.]

................i too think the parents are more directly responsible............

imagine? the parents arriving home to find maddie injured/dead

.......they panic! unlikely they would panic! and think 'let's cover this up'

more likely...they panic! and rush maddie to nearest medical centre

even if there was no pulse a parent would hope for resuscitation even when hope

is gone................

Mark L
Really depends. IF they sedated the kids so they could go out on the piss this would show in an autopsy. Kate thought the kids had been drugged apparently yet did not take them to the hospital for tests. How likely is this? A parent thinks their babies have been given unknown drugs by a stranger but doesn't get them checked? If kids were proven sedated, thats both parents jobs over and twins possibly taken from them too.

Normal parents upon discovering an accident would call the ambulance. (IMO again) but these parents had something to hide. Something that could well ruin their lives and the lives of their remaining children.

As chuff said too, there is the chance of sexual abuse. Another reason to not want an autopsy. I haven't thought about the sexual abuse side much as its just a horrible thought but there is definitely something dodgy about their friend David Payne. The Gaspar statements pretty much pin him as a creepy ****er at the very least. then there was a social worker (Yvonne Martin I believe) who recognized Payne from her line of work...child protection.

[chuff me dizzy]

That is a hell of an accusation and completely unfounded as far as I can see.

Ive been in Maddie groups for over 9 years, my theory is not a whim plucked out of mid air

[chuff me dizzy]

Really depends. IF they sedated the kids so they could go out on the piss this would show in an autopsy. Kate thought the kids had been drugged apparently yet did not take them to the hospital for tests. How likely is this? A parent thinks their babies have been given unknown drugs by a stranger but doesn't get them checked? If kids were proven sedated, thats both parents jobs over and twins possibly taken from them too.

Normal parents upon discovering an accident would call the ambulance. (IMO again) but these parents had something to hide. Something that could well ruin their lives and the lives of their remaining children.

As chuff said too, there is the chance of sexual abuse. Another reason to not want an autopsy. I haven't thought about the sexual abuse side much as its just a horrible thought but there is definitely something dodgy about their friend David Payne. The Gaspar statements pretty much pin him as a creepy ****er at the very least. then there was a social worker (Yvonne Martin I believe) who recognized Payne from her line of work...child protection.

Yes you're right on Yvonne Martin ,Payne took Mcs to one side and they came back and told her they didn't want her help
As for the drugging ,Kate refused to have the twins hair tested for 11 months ( the time it takes to get out of your system ) But i think twins were drugged as they woke up when Maddie died and being hid, so given something to knock them out
Watch the Snow White video, watch how Maddie looks up ,then lowers her eyes and chews her lip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaNMPZJ1jw Clearly scared of or embarrassed by the man with the camera, believed to be film maker Corner

[ebandit]

Most parents would yes but that doesnt mean all would

you're right................most parents would have cracked under pressure sooner?

.............if the mc canns had sedated maddie with something a whole lot stronger that what has been suggested

then they might wish to cover up

Mark L

[Kazanne]

I'm not sure but I don't Ben's mother wasn't present at the time he disappeared - wasn't he at his grandparents?

Madelienes mother wasn't present either:hehe:

[longstar]

the Mccanns are being protected by the government because they are in a high respected jobs of society, and they have friends that are rich and powerful, they where close friends of clement freud, and he had a flat near where maddie had disappeared, and he was cooking meals for the mccain family when they went on holiday at the time, its well clear that the mccains knew about the pre-planned abduction, why leave the patio door's unlocked and then tell a cock an bull story that who took her went threw the small window that would never fit even the smallest human adult, the drugging of maddie seems too have her stopped from screaming or crying, and the emails of clement freud and kate and gerry Mccann where deleted, and now the police are launching a probe into what he knew about it, its clear that alot of people knew what really happened to her, but the police can't arrest them for it, fred clement is dead but they only tell now about what he knew,

[Niamh.]

you're right................most parents would have cracked under pressure sooner?

.............if the mc canns had sedated maddie with something a whole lot stronger that what has been suggested

then they might wish to cover up

Mark L
Kate is an anesthest as far as I'm aware

[Niamh.]

Madelienes mother wasn't present either:hehe:
Very true Kaz

[chuff me dizzy]

Kate is an anesthest as far as I'm aware

GP who trained in anaesthetics

[Niamh.]

GP who trained in anaesthetics

ah thanks Chuff

[Niamh.]

This from Pat Browns book, all this from statements made from Gerry McCann, Kate McCann and one the friends Jane Tanner :

On subsequent analysis of the main statements, and taking into account the McCann’s very
early insistence that Jane Tanner’s sighting was of the abductor with Madeleine, that could
no longer be sustained. This fact had been recognised by Gerry McCann as early as 1:00am
on 4th May. [1]
The McCanns themselves clearly both accept that the “Window of Opportunity” for an
abduction was small. During one interview Kate McCann said - in a high pitched and
emotional voice - “Yyyeeah, yeah you’re right. It was a very small window of opportunity
but they saw it and then *click*!!!!!! Here Kate makes a clicking sound with her tongue
and a simultaneous downward chopping motion with her right hand. [2]
On 10th May 2007 Gerry McCann made a statement in which he confirmed this, although at
that time he seemed equivocal about the Jane Tanner sighting.
The passage bears repeating in full, for the avoidance of doubt.
“The deponent had had the wrong idea that MATHEW had seen the bedroom shutters closed
when he was there at 21H30, and therefore he thought the disappearance would have taken
place between 21h30 and 22h00, but presently he is fully convinced that the abduction took
place during the period of time between his check at 21h05 and MATHEW's visit at 21H30. It
was not until about 01h00 on 4 May 2007 that he learned through RUSSEL that his partner,
JANE, at around 21h10, saw a man crossing the top of the road with a child in his arms, that
may or may not have been his daughter MADELEINE. [3]
Quite how small was that window and the consequences that follow are examined here.
From their Police statements we learn the following :-
• The McCanns left the apartment to go for dinner around 8:30pm [4]
• Gerry McCann left the Tapas restaurant at 9:04 pm, walked back and re-entered the
apartment. He did a physical check on the children. He saw all three. [5]
Observation 1 : From the absence of any further comment in any of his statements it
must be assumed that the front door, the patio door, the garden gate and the security
gate, and the windows and shutters and curtains in the children’s bedroom, were all in
order.
Observation 2 : It takes one minute to walk at a normal speed from the Tapas bar to
the small gate at the bottom of the outside stairs. It would take around a further 20
seconds to open the gate, climb the stairs, open the patio doors quietly, enter the
apartment and reach the children’s bedroom. [6 ]
• He remained in the apartment for a little time, two or three minutes [7] recording that he
stood in the children’s room “and thought to himself, She’s so beautiful.” and took the
opportunity to use the bathroom. He then left the apartment through the patio doors, and went
down the outside stairs, through the gate and out onto the street. There he met Jeremy
(referred to throughout as Jez ) Wilkins. The two men spoke for a short time, estimated at
between 3 and 4, or 3 to 5 minutes. [8] [9 ] or “only a few minutes” [10]
• Jane Tanner left the Tapas bar at between 9:05 and 9:10 pm. Significantly she times her
own departure at five minutes after Gerry’s [11] She walked past the men whilst they were
talking. She reports seeing the two men [12] although the men state they did not see her.
[13]
• Immediately after passing the two men Jane Tanner states that she saw a man carrying a
child along the road across the top of the street, from left to right. The child was being carried
flat, across the forearms, and Jane Tanner saw its feet, which were towards her. She then
continued to her own apartment. [14]
• Gerry McCann then returned to the dining table in the Tapas bar. This time is given as
between 9:10 and 9:15 pm [15]
Working purely from the statements of Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins, and Jane Tanner,
and adding the time as we proceed we can estimate the following -
Gerry McCann left the Tapas bar 9:05 pm
Arrived at gate at bottom of stairs 9:06
Climbed stairs, entered apartment and went to bedroom 9:06.30s
Looked at children and had “proud father” moment 9:07
Used toilet 9:08
Left apartment, closing doors, went down stairs, met Jez Wilkins 9:09
Talked to Jez Wilkins 9:09 - 9:13 pm
Jane Tanner left Tapas bar 9:10 pm
JT arrived bottom of stairs, saw and passed the two men 9:11
JT saw abductor carrying child across top of road 9:11.05s
There is therefore, on their own timings, just two minutes and five seconds for the intruder
to get in, seize Madeleine, get out again, and make his way round to the top of the road. To
walk from the front door or window of the apartment to the left behind the low wall, then
across the car park, then right to the corner of the street takes around 45 seconds. and a
further 5 seconds to cross the street. [16]
He has therefore around one minute and twenty seconds to enter, commit the crime, and
exit. This is an important point for the understanding of what happened.
Let it be stated once again.
If the man seen by Jane Tanner was the “abductor’ and was carrying Madeleine,
as the McCanns insist, he had available to him the time from Gerry McCann’s leaving the
apartment to the sighting by Jane Tanner. And no more.
In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
• Walk to the left along the path in front of the apartment, walk straight ahead
across the car park, and then walk to the right along the road, and cross the
street in front of Jane Tanner, the father of the very child he had just abducted, and
another man who has his own child in a buggy.
Taking into account the travelling time, he has around one minute and twenty seconds in
which to achieve the first seven items on the list.
Clearly he could not enter through the patio door within this time frame, since Gerry was
standing either at the bottom of the steps, or on the other side of the road, depending whether
we follow the statement of Gerry McCann, Jez Wilson, [17] [18] or Jane Tanner. (During the
televised “documentary reconstruction” Gerry McCann’s version took precedence, and
viewers were treated to the sight of Jane Tanner being reduced to tears as her detailed
recollection was publicly destroyed.) [19]
For our purposes this important contradiction is, for the moment, irrelevant.
As Kate has observed, “What may be important is that all three of them were there.” [20]
It is indeed a very important point, as it fixes forever Jane Tanner’s sighting relative to Gerry
McCann’s leaving the apartment, in a way which cannot be altered by debate or legal
argument.
It could only be altered by admission of error, but Jane Tanner has several times then and
since publicly insisted that she was telling the truth. [21] [22]
Possible scenarios.
One scenario is therefore that immediately on Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment, the
intruder entered though the front door by means unknown, or, having forced up the shutters,
propped or jammed them in a high position, forced open the window, and climbed in. This is
not supported by examination of the operation of the shutters, or the locking mechanism of
the windows. No implement to support the shutters was found, and no forensic traces were
seen on the window sill, or on the windows.
A second scenario has more recently been put forward to the effect that the intruder may have
already been in the apartment as Gerry McCann entered. This would allow him a few more
seconds or fractions of a minute in which to complete his crime. And in fact we find that this
was raised as a possibility by Dr Gerry McCann himself some time later. [23]
But the apartment is largely open-plan, there are only three doors, to the bedrooms and the
bathroom, and this theory leads to some vague stories being suggested about where the
intruder might have been secreted. None is persuasive. “Behind the door”, or “in the
cupboard,” have been offered. Examination of the photos of the bedroom, and indeed of the
entire apartment may lead a researcher to question this. [24]
Gerry McCann recounts seeing all the children, and having the “proud father” moment, and of
looking down at Madeleine. In none of his three statements does he report the smell of
anaesthetic gas or the presence of any other anaesthetic paraphernalia, and we conclude
that this procedure must therefore have been performed after he left.
Kate was initially sure that the children had been sedated.

[longstar]

lets look at the death of stuart lubbock in barrymore's house, it is said that he died before he was floating in the pool and also why where there injuries to stuart's anal, the police said that stuart suffered a violent sexual assault before he died, and he did not drown, and they said that he was thrown into that pool, the police knew that it was now a murder case, but they just dropped it, and all the fingers are pointed at barrymore, when there was a number of people in that house, so there was a mix of cover ups and blundering from the force, now the portuguese police where very close in getting the mccann parents to confess in what they know in what happened to maddie, then are police force flew to portugal and just said that the portuguese force where wrong, that proved that are force just did another cover up and blundering, but one thing that does stick out there is that why is scotland yard protecting the mccanns, there was a guy who had written a book in what really happened to maddie, and they jailed him, why, to shut him up from telling the truth, it seems a bit strange that the police can't tell in what happened in barrymore house and even in what happened to maddie, but they easily knew in what happened to shannon mathews and quickly knew that mick philpott killed his kids, look at ben needham, never once did his family get any support from the government or the police, why because he is from a working class background, you have to be from a middle or upper class background and have a respected job and be rich and famous to think you are good as gold in that life, if the mccann parents where living on a council estate, and not working, they would have there children taken from them, not once did social services try and have there children taken from them.

[DemolitionRed]

This from Pat Browns book, all this from statements made from Gerry McCann, Kate McCann and one the friends Jane Tanner :

.[/spoiler]

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

[Niamh.]

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

It is very suspicious, just the fact that all the friends and the McCanns statements seemed to change all the time alone is suspicious. You could be right about paying the guy off but personally I think Jane Tanner made that up about seeing him

And yes I think the coffin is a very plausible theory

[Vicky.]

The coffin makes more sense than the freezer I think. Especially given the McCanns were given keys to the local church (proven)

However, the freezer thing...there seems to be a bit of proof for that given DNA was found in the hire car and the material was consistent with...a frozen body thawing. Along with Gerry disposing of a freezer/fridge.

IMO not one theory makes sense completely. but the abduction theory I find least likely of all.

[Niamh.]

The coffin makes more sense than the freezer I think. Especially given the McCanns were given keys to the local church (proven)

However, the freezer thing...there seems to be a bit of proof for that given DNA was found in the hire car and the material was consistent with...a frozen body thawing. Along with Gerry disposing of a freezer/fridge.

IMO not one theory makes sense completely. but the abduction theory I find least likely of all.

Well both could be true Vicky, she could have been put there and then moved to the coffin a while later. Them dumping a freezer in a rented apartment makes zero sense, who does that?

[chuff me dizzy]

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva

[Vicky.]

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva
She was seen up until about 2pm on the day of 'the disappearance' though wasn't she? Different people saying they saw her.

The Huelva thing always interested me about this. So sick if this is what happened but does explain the arrogance of 'find the body' and such :(

[chuff me dizzy]

She was seen up until about 2pm on the day of 'the disappearance' though wasn't she? Different people saying they saw her.

The Huelva thing always interested me about this. So sick if this is what happened but does explain the arrogance of 'find the body' and such :(

Tanners girls is the spitting image of Maddie and is widely believed to have been used to make people think she was Maddie

McCanns put off going to Huelva the day they planned to go as Gerry "had an upset stomach " so went on a bank holiday, shops all closed, and like a ghost town ,I've driven past Huelva when in Portugal, its a tiny one horse town ,why if you want to get massive attention to what happened not go to Seville a big town and they would have passed there to go to quite Huelva, IMO thats where Maddie remains were left ,have you seen the photo of Gerry packing the car up with posters for the trip wearing rubber gloves? and a box of rubber gloves in the boot ,why would you need rubber gloves ?

[Jack_]

lets look at the death of stuart lubbock in barrymore's house, it is said that he died before he was floating in the pool and also why where there injuries to stuart's anal, the police said that stuart suffered a violent sexual assault before he died, and he did not drown, and they said that he was thrown into that pool, the police knew that it was now a murder case, but they just dropped it, and all the fingers are pointed at barrymore, when there was a number of people in that house, so there was a mix of cover ups and blundering from the force, now the portuguese police where very close in getting the mccann parents to confess in what they know in what happened to maddie, then are police force flew to portugal and just said that the portuguese force where wrong, that proved that are force just did another cover up and blundering, but one thing that does stick out there is that why is scotland yard protecting the mccanns, there was a guy who had written a book in what really happened to maddie, and they jailed him, why, to shut him up from telling the truth, it seems a bit strange that the police can't tell in what happened in barrymore house and even in what happened to maddie, but they easily knew in what happened to shannon mathews and quickly knew that mick philpott killed his kids, look at ben needham, never once did his family get any support from the government or the police, why because he is from a working class background, you have to be from a middle or upper class background and have a respected job and be rich and famous to think you are good as gold in that life, if the mccann parents where living on a council estate, and not working, they would have there children taken from them, not once did social services try and have there children taken from them.

It's not often I agree with one of your posts, but there's always an exception to the rule

I've shared this a few times before but it's worth doing so again. Owen Jones dedicates a whole chapter of Chavs to the Maddie case (or rather, a comparison of attitudes towards her's and the Shannon Matthews one), and it's a striking example of how class relations are implicit in both the responses to similar stories such as these, and also in their treatment by the authorities. Capitalism has a lot to answer for:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v9yQZWnKhoMC&pg=PA13&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Why Madeleine? Some commentators were remarkably honest about why, of all the injustices in the world, it was the tragedy of this one little girl that provoked such anguish. 'This kind of thing doesn't usually happen to people like us', lamented Allison Pearson in the Daily Mail. What Pearson meant by people like her was people from comfortable, middle-class backgrounds. Kidnappings, stabbings, murders; those are things you almost expected to happen to people living in Peckham or Glasgow. This sort of tragedy was not supposed to happen to folks you might bump into doing the weekly shop at Waitrose'. (2011, pp. 14-15)

[Niamh.]

It's not often I agree with one of your posts, but there's always an exception to the rule

I've shared this a few times before but it's worth doing so again. Owen Jones dedicates a whole chapter of Chavs to the Maddie case (or rather, a comparison of attitudes towards her's and the Shannon Matthews one), and it's a striking example of how class relations are implicit in both the responses to similar stories such as these, and also in their treatment by the authorities. Capitalism has a lot to answer for:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v9yQZWnKhoMC&pg=PA13&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
Class certainly is a reason why the McCanns neglect is forgiven by some people when you know if it were a couple from some council estate they would have been made out to be scumbags and the twins probaly would have been taken off them

[Smithy]

I find some of the theories hard to believe, such as the friends helping them cover up her death why?), or pretending their friends daughter was maddie (again, why? Surely someone would have still noticed there was another little blonde girl missing)

But reading through these threads has definitely made me a lot more suspicious to what actually happened

[longstar]

from 2007 to 2009, the mccann's where harassing and intimating the staff at ocean club, and the staff at ocean club hold the key to what the mccann's where doing in the days before and after the abduction, and we know why they would not tell the real truth when the mccann's have friends in very high positions of power, and the the mccann's did not want anyone to find out that they heavily satated maddie, and there could be a very deep level that maddie was abused in some way in her short life, because an autopsy would spot that on first sight, but I can't say anymore on that because the mccann's could have are forum shut down, because of what we all have said, they have shut down other forums for saying things that they don't want found out, but there is something else to add, some people in middle and upper class backgrounds would have there children being molested and buggered by other higher class people, and its still happening to this day, its really a perverted ritual to them, if maddie died in an accident, just the same way as a kid runs across the road or trips into the garden pond, because you took your eye off the clock, or you are in another room or you are somewhere more far away, why would the mccanns depose their own kids body, and have her never be found, there is something that the mcann's don't want anyone to find out in what happened to her in life before she died, and its very very disturbing.

[Brillopad]

from 2007 to 2009, the mccann's where harassing and intimating the staff at ocean club, and the staff at ocean club hold the key to what the mccann's where doing in the days before and after the abduction, and we know why they would not tell the real truth when the mccann's have friends in very high positions of power, and the the mccann's did not want anyone to find out that they heavily satated maddie, and there could be a very deep level that maddie was abused in some way in her short life, because an autopsy would spot that on first sight, but I can't say anymore on that because the mccann's could have are forum shut down, because of what we all have said, they have shut down other forums for saying things that they don't want found out, but there is something else to add, some people in middle and upper class backgrounds would have there children being molested and buggered by other higher class people, and its still happening to this day, its really a perverted ritual to them, if maddie died in an accident, just the same way as a kid runs across the road or trips into the garden pond, because you took your eye off the clock, or you are in another room or you are somewhere more far away, why would the mccanns depose their own kids body, and have her never be found, there is something that the mcann's don't want anyone to find out in what happened to her in life before she died, and its very very disturbing.

Talk about conspiracy theories.

[jaxie]

It's all very disturbing and thought provoking but where a lot of the theories fall down for me is in the idea that their friends would help them cover it up. Why would they do that? It doesn't really make sense to me and the more people involved in the idea of a cover up makes the whole thing less viable to do, keep quiet etc. A crowd secret isn't a secret for very long.

I've been quite shocked to learn that it's a thing for many parents to drug their own kids quite casually and regularly. I never would have dreamed of doing that to mine. A friend with young children says mum's talk about drugging the kids with calpol quite openly at the school gate. The idea is irresponsible and outrageous to me.

[chuff me dizzy]

Marco Pierre White Jnr ,has put the cat amongst the pigeons with this tweet

“Kate and Gerry MacCann are *********g guilty sick mother *********s defiantly killed there daughter. Look at money (dollar sign) they’ve made out of it in 10 years”

[Brillopad]

Marco Pierre White Jnr ,has put the cat amongst the pigeons with this tweet

“Kate and Gerry MacCann are *********g guilty sick mother *********s defiantly killed there daughter. Look at money (dollar sign) they’ve made out of it in 10 years”

What a Prat trying to make a name for himself by spouting such controversial s***e. Total hypocrite, even the police don't think that. Vile creature.

Unfortunately sad cases such as this bring all the low life's out from under their rocks.

[thesheriff443]

Watched a program Las night man got sentenced to 7 years for attacking a woman he did not do it, he had appeals but they were rejected so he served the seven years, after his time was up he went in front of the parol board because hr maintained his innocence he did not do any rehabilitation so they considered him high risk and gave another ten years after serving 17 years of hell and being attacked over that period he got someone on his side to re examine the evidence, turns out the dna they used to convict him was never even tested, to 40 minuts for jugdes to free him the next day he was released with 48 pound travel warrant and no other support.

[DemolitionRed]

The Gasper statement is really concerning. They had been on previous group holiday with the McCann's and overheard a conversation between Gerry and David Payne that really disturbed them.

This is a really interesting interview with an American crime speech analyst. He sounds confidently certain that the McCann's are hiding the truth and from the words they used during their interviews. He shows how they made an 'embedded confession' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgXizBxn-8

[Niamh.]

Watched a program Las night man got sentenced to 7 years for attacking a woman he did not do it, he had appeals but they were rejected so he served the seven years, after his time was up he went in front of the parol board because hr maintained his innocence he did not do any rehabilitation so they considered him high risk and gave another ten years after serving 17 years of hell and being attacked over that period he got someone on his side to re examine the evidence, turns out the dna they used to convict him was never even tested, to 40 minuts for jugdes to free him the next day he was released with 48 pound travel warrant and no other support.
What does that have to do withtgis case though?

[Niamh.]

The Gasper statement is really concerning. They had been on previous group holiday with the McCann's and overheard a conversation between Gerry and David Payne that really disturbed them.

This is a really interesting interview with an American crime speech analyst. He sounds confidently certain that the McCann's are hiding the truth and from the words they used during their interviews. He shows how they made an 'embedded confession' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgXizBxn-8
Oh yeah thats a great video DR, Peter Hyatt is very interesting to listen too. Also re the Gasper Statements, they have nothing to gain by lying

[DemolitionRed]

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva

I'm going to go and read up about Huelva.

[Vicky.]

I find some of the theories hard to believe, such as the friends helping them cover up her death why?), or pretending their friends daughter was maddie (again, why? Surely someone would have still noticed there was another little blonde girl missing)

But reading through these threads has definitely made me a lot more suspicious to what actually happened

I can believe some of the friends helped coverup...reasons...they were ALL sedating the kids.

However I don't believe the friends knew what happened tbh. Maybe with the exception of David Payne (something dodgy here..he was the last person besides the parents to claim to see Madeleine. he claims he was there for 15 mins, kate claims he was only there 15 seconds and didnt see the kids :S)

I think the friends lied about the checking. I think they all sedated the kids and then just left them. Then when Madeleine was 'discovered missing' they all panicked and agreed to pretend they had been checking on the kids as otherwise they could get in serious trouble for being such selfish neglectful arseholes.

I believe Russel might know a little more about the story, given the McCanns tried to get him to be the last person to 'see' Madeleine, but he appeared to click onto this so said that he never actually 'saw' her he just listened at the door.

So many questions...

But yeah, I don't believe ALL of the friends covered up, but I do think there is a possibility some helped. And I think the checking timeline was completely fabricated (which would also explain the ridiculous decision to sit writing out a checking timeline instead of actually going out to look for the child...covering arses)

[Vicky.]

from 2007 to 2009, the mccann's where harassing and intimating the staff at ocean club, and the staff at ocean club hold the key to what the mccann's where doing in the days before and after the abduction, and we know why they would not tell the real truth when the mccann's have friends in very high positions of power, and the the mccann's did not want anyone to find out that they heavily satated maddie, and there could be a very deep level that maddie was abused in some way in her short life, because an autopsy would spot that on first sight, but I can't say anymore on that because the mccann's could have are forum shut down, because of what we all have said, they have shut down other forums for saying things that they don't want found out, but there is something else to add, some people in middle and upper class backgrounds would have there children being molested and buggered by other higher class people, and its still happening to this day, its really a perverted ritual to them, if maddie died in an accident, just the same way as a kid runs across the road or trips into the garden pond, because you took your eye off the clock, or you are in another room or you are somewhere more far away, why would the mccanns depose their own kids body, and have her never be found, there is something that the mcann's don't want anyone to find out in what happened to her in life before she died, and its very very disturbing.
The tide has turned on that now. Even the papers are having headlines about Maddie being dead. Their loss to Amaral appears to have changed things and they do not have such a grip on the media and such anymore.

What I do not understand is why Scotland Yard are being so ****ing dense, or believe the public are so dense. HOW can you reopen an investigation and immediately rule out the main suspects...not even investigate them. From the off it was declared the parents were not suspects. Also I find it rather strange that the team actually investigating is the homicide team though. I have slight hope that Madeleine will get justice. Only slight though.

I fully expect the investigation to come to a close (after the lovely weather season in Portugal mind...must take advantage of taxpayer funding) and we will be told that someone who is already dead took Madeleine...no proof, just expected to believe like the sheep they think we are. Won't wash now though IMO as too many people have actually looked at the files and discovered the lies and discrepancies..before it was only a few and everyone else believed the 'official' line.

But more and more people by the day are realising how ridiculous the abduction theory really is. It is those who do believe abduction who are the conspiracy theorists...as all actual evidence points elsewhere.

[Vicky.]

It's all very disturbing and thought provoking but where a lot of the theories fall down for me is in the idea that their friends would help them cover it up. Why would they do that? It doesn't really make sense to me and the more people involved in the idea of a cover up makes the whole thing less viable to do, keep quiet etc. A crowd secret isn't a secret for very long.

I've been quite shocked to learn that it's a thing for many parents to drug their own kids quite casually and regularly. I never would have dreamed of doing that to mine. A friend with young children says mum's talk about drugging the kids with calpol quite openly at the school gate. The idea is irresponsible and outrageous to me.

You cannot drug a child with calpol. Calpol does not make kids sleep. I believe it used to but the ingredients changed. Now it will only help your child sleep if the reason they are not sleeping is because they are in pain. Its just paracetamol. It will no more sedate a child than paracetamol would sedate an adult.

Also a 'crowd secret' can remain a secret if everyone in the crowd has something to lose.

[chuff me dizzy]

http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk


An amazing blog , McCann are finished, its nearly all over .......Maddies justice is on its way

[chuff me dizzy]

I can believe some of the friends helped coverup...reasons...they were ALL sedating the kids.

However I don't believe the friends knew what happened tbh. Maybe with the exception of David Payne (something dodgy here..he was the last person besides the parents to claim to see Madeleine. he claims he was there for 15 mins, kate claims he was only there 15 seconds and didnt see the kids :S)

I think the friends lied about the checking. I think they all sedated the kids and then just left them. Then when Madeleine was 'discovered missing' they all panicked and agreed to pretend they had been checking on the kids as otherwise they could get in serious trouble for being such selfish neglectful arseholes.

I believe Russel might know a little more about the story, given the McCanns tried to get him to be the last person to 'see' Madeleine, but he appeared to click onto this so said that he never actually 'saw' her he just listened at the door.

So many questions...

But yeah, I don't believe ALL of the friends covered up, but I do think there is a possibility some helped. And I think the checking timeline was completely fabricated (which would also explain the ridiculous decision to sit writing out a checking timeline instead of actually going out to look for the child...covering arses)

I think Tanner and Payne ( the baby bather) are in it past their necks

[Vicky.]

I think Tanner and Payne ( the baby bather) are in it past their necks

Ah yes I forgot about Tanner. Yes she has a major part for some reason. Though I genuinely do think her sighting was all about pinning the blame on Murat. Given her sighting went from seeing next to nothing to recognizing Murat...who I think she knew prior to the incident. Gerry certainly did..

[chuff me dizzy]

Ah yes I forgot about Tanner. Yes she has a major part for some reason. Though I genuinely do think her sighting was all about pinning the blame on Murat. Given her sighting went from seeing next to nothing to recognizing Murat...who I think she knew prior to the incident. Gerry certainly did..

From the time we went to Pdl and walked down the street Gerry claimed her never saw Tanner on ( wearing flip flops) I knew she was lying, the road is far too narrow ,no way could anyone walk down it unseen

I believe she was his lookout while he moved Maddie,she didn't see man with baby, Gerry placed Maddie in the flowerbed and went over chatting to the man to stop him being suspicious and that why cadaver was found in the garden

[Vicky.]

From the time we went to Pdl and walked down the street Gerry claimed her never saw Tanner on ( wearing flip flops) I knew she was lying, the road is far too narrow ,no way could anyone walk down it unseen

I believe she was his lookout while he moved Maddie,she didn't see man with baby, Gerry placed Maddie in the flowerbed and went over chatting to the man to stop him being suspicious and that why cadaver was found in the garden

I watched a clip a while back where Jane and Gerry were doing something to recontruct that scene and neither could agree on where they were and they just couldn't make it work.

I seem to remember in that clip too (this set alarm bells ringing for me) Jane saying to Gerry something about Kate was wondering why he was taking so long doing his check and that she assumed he must be watching the football in the apartment. Gerry shushed jane quite aggressively when she said this...

[Niamh.]

I watched a clip a while back where Jane and Gerry were doing something to recontruct that scene and neither could agree on where they were and they just couldn't make it work.

I seem to remember in that clip too (this set alarm bells ringing for me) Jane saying to Gerry something about Kate was wondering why he was taking so long doing his check and that she assumed he must be watching the football in the apartment. Gerry shushed jane quite aggressively when she said this...

That's clearly why they refused to do a proper reconstruction for the Police in Portugal.....because that's a totally normal thing to do when your child is missing, refuse to help the Police mmmhmm

[chuff me dizzy]

I watched a clip a while back where Jane and Gerry were doing something to recontruct that scene and neither could agree on where they were and they just couldn't make it work.

I seem to remember in that clip too (this set alarm bells ringing for me) Jane saying to Gerry something about Kate was wondering why he was taking so long doing his check and that she assumed he must be watching the football in the apartment. Gerry shushed jane quite aggressively when she said this...

Head of Scotland Yard dismissed Tanners sighting live on Crimewatch with Mcs sat there !!

[Smithy]

I can believe some of the friends helped coverup...reasons...they were ALL sedating the kids.

However I don't believe the friends knew what happened tbh. Maybe with the exception of David Payne (something dodgy here..he was the last person besides the parents to claim to see Madeleine. he claims he was there for 15 mins, kate claims he was only there 15 seconds and didnt see the kids :S)

I think the friends lied about the checking. I think they all sedated the kids and then just left them. Then when Madeleine was 'discovered missing' they all panicked and agreed to pretend they had been checking on the kids as otherwise they could get in serious trouble for being such selfish neglectful arseholes.

I believe Russel might know a little more about the story, given the McCanns tried to get him to be the last person to 'see' Madeleine, but he appeared to click onto this so said that he never actually 'saw' her he just listened at the door.

So many questions...

But yeah, I don't believe ALL of the friends covered up, but I do think there is a possibility some helped. And I think the checking timeline was completely fabricated (which would also explain the ridiculous decision to sit writing out a checking timeline instead of actually going out to look for the child...covering arses)

But I don't really see what difference that makes? Whether the kids were drugged or not somebody still "took" Madeline to the best of their knowledge

How would lying benefit them in anyway?

[Niamh.]

But I don't really see what difference that makes? Whether the kids were drugged or not somebody still "took" Madeline to the best of their knowledge

How would lying benefit them in anyway?
I think she died accidently and the friends knew that, if all the kids had been sedated when they were going out that would have been strong motivation for them all to lie because they could all lose their careers (they were all doctors) and possibly their own kids if Police found out theyd all drugged their kids

[Niamh.]

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

Good article here with a video of the dogs in the apartment and also good observations about how the McCanns reacted to that

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/20/14/18/madeleine-mccann-cadaver-sniffer-dogs-reaction-apartment-car-didnt-make-sense

[Kazanne]

Good article here with a video of the dogs in the apartment and also good observations about how the McCanns reacted to that

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/20/14/18/madeleine-mccann-cadaver-sniffer-dogs-reaction-apartment-car-didnt-make-sense

My God that video is pretty damning,first time I'de seen that.

[Niamh.]

My God that video is pretty damning,first time I'de seen that.

Yeah it really is

[Niamh.]

Also Kaz, in support of the idea that Maddie and the Twins could have been sedated :

(Taken from Pat Brownes Book)
Were the twins sedated on the night of 3rd May 2007 ?

The question of sedation of the three McCann children is one which has caused problems
since the very beginning.
Reported facts.
Around 10 pm 3rd May 2007 Kate McCann entered the apartment in the holiday resort and
reported Madeleine missing. The younger twins were still in their travel cots in the same
room, and were asleep.
What followed is a matter of public record. The apartment was searched, several times, by
many people, the surrounding area was searched by large numbers of police and ex-pats
and villagers, and huge amount of activity was directed to discovering Madeleine’s
whereabouts. All were in vain.

BUT . . . during all of this commotion -
despite a window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
despite the door slamming shut,
despite curtains blowing into the room,
despite their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
despite their mother rushing out screaming for help,
despite the entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
despite Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
despite Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
despite Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
despite the Police investigating the scene,
despite Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
despite both parents repeating this action and wailing
despite Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
despite the twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
despite their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment. [1.1]


Despite all of this . . . the twins did not wake

[Kazanne]

Also Kaz, in support of the idea that Maddie and the Twins could have been sedated :

(Taken from Pat Brownes Book)
Were the twins sedated on the night of 3rd May 2007 ?

The question of sedation of the three McCann children is one which has caused problems
since the very beginning.
Reported facts.
Around 10 pm 3rd May 2007 Kate McCann entered the apartment in the holiday resort and
reported Madeleine missing. The younger twins were still in their travel cots in the same
room, and were asleep.
What followed is a matter of public record. The apartment was searched, several times, by
many people, the surrounding area was searched by large numbers of police and ex-pats
and villagers, and huge amount of activity was directed to discovering Madeleine’s
whereabouts. All were in vain.

BUT . . . during all of this commotion -
despite a window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
despite the door slamming shut,
despite curtains blowing into the room,
despite their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
despite their mother rushing out screaming for help,
despite the entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
despite Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
despite Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
despite Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
despite the Police investigating the scene,
despite Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
despite both parents repeating this action and wailing
despite Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
despite the twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
despite their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment. [1.1]


Despite all of this . . . the twins did not wake

That really is food for thought Niamh,I know I have had to tiptoe round mine when they were small as they would wake, this case gets more and more mysterious.

[chuff me dizzy]

McCann request for court judgement annulment is refused! Whoop whoop! https://www.facebook.com/groups/HiDeHoCONTROVERSYofMadeleineMcCann/permalink/777830182373473/


Nowhere else to go now, they have to hand the money over to Amaral, a great day for Maddie and all who have fought for her all these years

[chuff me dizzy]

Marco Pierre White
@mpw_jnr
big brother 2016 #LiveTheLifeOfMarco instagram: Marcopierrewhitejnr marcopierrewhite@icloud.com

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Marco Pierre White‏ @mpw_jnr Mar 16
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Kate and Gerry MacCann are ****ing guilty sick mother****ers defiantly killed there daughter look at 💰 they've made out of it in 10 years
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They both look like a mess waste of space ugly mother ****ers no soul take the other kids away social services
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@mpw_jnr retweet please https://www.youtube.com/embed/qEDkFiHOXLY …
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@mpw_jnr I emailed the find madeleine website to try to help. They were not very grateful! 😂

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@mpw_jnr well done to someone not scared to stand up to them 🖒keep it up
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@mpw_jnr Kate talks about her daughters
"Perfect genitals being torn apart" - Normal mother talk?? I think not #McScam #McCannTruth Searcher added,

laura jayne @lauraxxjayne
Just putting it out there #mccann don't want it shared ? Here's an idea.. don't ****ing publish it 🤔
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@mpw_jnr saying all this without fear! Without fear of reprisal! Hats off to you lad! You're mentioning all of their lies! Bravo! 👏 #McCann
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Shut the **** up with ur bull**** maccanns the games up ur guilty I tweet what I want I don't care If i get sued they can show this in court
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Funny how you wanna change conversation when your argument holds no weight give up be true to yourself
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Sue me you make me sick and when u sue me it will blow up and the truth will come out you are disgusting wish u where in America death row 💯
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[DemolitionRed]

I can believe some of the friends helped coverup...reasons...they were ALL sedating the kids.

However I don't believe the friends knew what happened tbh. Maybe with the exception of David Payne (something dodgy here..he was the last person besides the parents to claim to see Madeleine. he claims he was there for 15 mins, kate claims he was only there 15 seconds and didnt see the kids :S)

I think the friends lied about the checking. I think they all sedated the kids and then just left them. Then when Madeleine was 'discovered missing' they all panicked and agreed to pretend they had been checking on the kids as otherwise they could get in serious trouble for being such selfish neglectful arseholes.

I believe Russel might know a little more about the story, given the McCanns tried to get him to be the last person to 'see' Madeleine, but he appeared to click onto this so said that he never actually 'saw' her he just listened at the door.

So many questions...

But yeah, I don't believe ALL of the friends covered up, but I do think there is a possibility some helped. And I think the checking timeline was completely fabricated (which would also explain the ridiculous decision to sit writing out a checking timeline instead of actually going out to look for the child...covering arses)

The night before Maddie was reported missing, the tenant upstairs heard the pitiful crying of a child coming from the apartment beneath her. She said that this went on for something like 2 hours. I think that's when Maddie died from an accident. If she got up and climbed on the back of the sofa to reach the window, in her drugged state she could of fallen forward and banged her head.

[Jack.]

http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk


An amazing blog , McCann are finished, its nearly all over .......Maddies justice is on its way

Really interesting read!

[chuff me dizzy]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/22/12/26/kate-gerry-mccann-fail-to-stop-court-ruling-not-innocent-in-madeleine-disappearance

Not a single UK paper has written about yesterday court hearing ,as it was another resounding loss for Mcs

[Niamh.]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/03/22/12/26/kate-gerry-mccann-fail-to-stop-court-ruling-not-innocent-in-madeleine-disappearance

Not a single UK paper has written about yesterday court hearing ,as it was another resounding loss for Mcs

The way they protect them is just bizarre tbh

[chuff me dizzy]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3149599/madeleine-mccanns-parents-kate-and-gerry-lose-third-libel-battle-to-silence-cop-who-claimed-they-fake-her-kidnap/

Finally !!

[Niamh.]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3149599/madeleine-mccanns-parents-kate-and-gerry-lose-third-libel-battle-to-silence-cop-who-claimed-they-fake-her-kidnap/

Finally !!

This what I mean, Newspapers like the Sun being sympathetic towards them? It's very out of character for them, even if they were completely innocent usually the juicer angle would be totally jumped on but never with these two for some reason...........

[chuff me dizzy]

Brilliant blog and so right on Katie Hopkins ,who's doing Maddies cause no good by pushing " Neglect "

http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/katie-hopkins-towing-mccann-line.html?spref=fb&m=1

[chuff me dizzy]

This what I mean, Newspapers like the Sun being sympathetic towards them? It's very out of character for them, even if they were completely innocent usually the juicer angle would be totally jumped on but never with these two for some reason...........

The usual reporter who comments on Mc thing Tracey is a gym bud die of Kates and used to live in Rothley

[MTVN]

The press were quite scathing of the McCanns originally iirc until legal action was taken and the Express and the Star had to issue front page apologies. I don't remember that being done for anything else

[ebandit]

...in an alternative universe..........................................

gerry 'n kate....'we welcome discussion from all parties..................all avenues must

be explored.................all stones upturned...anything to find answers and lead to

answers to what happened to our dear maddie............and where she could be'

..........................oh! wait..............

Mark L,

[chuff me dizzy]

The stolen wallet


http://steelmagnolia-mccannarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/httpwww_27.html?m=1