Gibraltar, the EU and Spain

[jaxie]

I was surprised not to see a thread about this so putting one out in case people want to discuss the EUs outrageous attitude towards Gibraltar who they seem to think needs Spain's permission to be part of the UK's deal.

[joeysteele]

I didn't see enough voters in the UK bothered about Gibraltar's view on the issue.

This sadly is an example of how unpleasant and difficult things could become.

It happens when something is proposed with little or even no forward planning at the time across all considered important issues.

[user104658]

I didn't see enough voters in the UK bothered about Gibraltar's view on the issue.

This sadly is an example of how unpleasant and difficult things could become.

It happens when something is proposed with little or even no forward planning at the time across all considered important issues.
Indeed. The potential issues surrounding Brexit should have been examined and hammered out in "if" scenarios before they even THOUGHT about holding an actual vote,let alone triggering article 50. Alas, that's all captain hindsight stuff now. Here we are.

[joeysteele]

Indeed. The potential issues surrounding Brexit should have been examined and hammered out in "if" scenarios before they even THOUGHT about holding an actual vote,let alone triggering article 50. Alas, that's all captain hindsight stuff now. Here we are.

Agree completely.
As you say here we are, only at the start too.

[jaxie]

I didn't see enough voters in the UK bothered about Gibraltar's view on the issue.

This sadly is an example of how unpleasant and difficult things could become.

It happens when something is proposed with little or even no forward planning at the time across all considered important issues.

As with all other parts of the UK, Gibraltar voted in the referendum. They had the same vote as everyone else. You are excusing the behaviour of the EU by trying to blame their attitude towards a region with self determination on those who voted leave. In my view we should refuse further talks until they put this right.

[Northern Monkey]

Spain has always contested our rule of Gibralter and probably always will.However the important thing is that the people of Gibralter want to be part of the UK and have voted that way.Spain will always keep trying their luck.

[joeysteele]

As with all other parts of the UK, Gibraltar voted in the referendum. They had the same vote as everyone else. You are excusing the behaviour of the EU by trying to blame their attitude towards a region with self determination on those who voted leave. In my view we should refuse further talks until they put this right.

Gibraltar didn't have the millions of voters England had, so hardly had any chance of their massively overwhelming view on the vote at all influencing anything whatsoever.
Which until now as to Gibraltar, the UK govt.has not been bothered about either.

[Brillopad]

Gibraltar didn't have the millions of voters England had, so hardly had any chance of their massively overwhelming view on the vote at all influencing anything whatsoever.
Which until now as to Gibraltar from the UK govt.has not been bothered about either.

If there were many Gibraltans who wanted to stay in the EU, that would explain such views from those more concerned with making up that 2% or so difference in a desperate attempt to overturn the public vote rather than a faux moralistic concern for the Gibraltans.

[Livia]

The EU is makings itself look petty and small. And who the hell is Spain to call the shots? The people of Gibraltar are British. There is nothing else to say.

[smudgie]

Am I confused here, are Spain saying there will be no freedom of movement with Spain/ Gibralter then.
Sounds a bit daft as the traffic is nearly all one way, so many more Spanish unemployed on the way then.

[arista]

Spain a Trouble Maker
Our Rock is staying British forever

[jaxie]

Gibraltar didn't have the millions of voters England had, so hardly had any chance of their massively overwhelming view on the vote at all influencing anything whatsoever.
Which until now as to Gibraltar, the UK govt.has not been bothered about either.

As with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England, Gibraltar voted as part of the United Kingdom. One person, one vote. It didn't vote as just Gibraltar, neither did Scotland vote as just Scotland. :shrug:

Gibraltar has it's own government and runs its own affairs, they also voted by 98% to stay a part of the UK in 2002. How can you have umbrage over the Brexit vote on their regard but not over Spain and the EU's disgraceful attempt to use Gibraltar?

[Kizzy]

Gibraltar voted to remain, who are they more loyal to...England or the European Union?

Is it worth another ideological war?

[joeysteele]

As with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England, Gibraltar voted as part of the United Kingdom. One person, one vote. It didn't vote as just Gibraltar, neither did Scotland vote as just Scotland. :shrug:

Gibraltar has it's own government and runs its own affairs, they also voted by 98% to stay a part of the UK in 2002. How can you have umbrage over the Brexit vote on their regard but not over Spain and the EU's disgraceful attempt to use Gibraltar?

I think it is time,particularly a loud minority in England,started to take into consideration the feelings and views of other Nations and dependencies have.
Otherwise not only will the UK split likely in a few years but the old loyalties of other said places,end up being tested too far too.

[MTVN]

Gibraltar seem pretty clear in their view

In a 2002 referendum GIbraltar voted by a 99 per cent margin to remain part of the United Kingdom, but in last year’s EU referendum it voted by 97 per cent to remain in the EU.

Spain has made territorial claim over Gibraltar for more than 300 years, but Mr Picardo said the prospect of the territory ending up under shared control was "awful."

Mr Picardo said: "It would strip us of who we are. It would not be British if sovereignty should be shared with Spain.

"It would be awful. Our home would be handed over to a party that has no claim to title.

"Our day to day lives would not be the lives that would we live today. We would be living in somebody else’s land."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fabian-picardo-gibraltar-brexit-strip-us-of-who-we-are-a7662566.html

[jaxie]

I think it is time,particularly a loud minority in England,started to take into consideration the feelings and views of other Nations and dependencies have.
Otherwise not only will the UK split likely in a few years but the old loyalties of other said places,end up being tested too far too.

If the 'UK' didn't take into account the feelings of the parts of the UK or of dependencies, none of them would have had referendum's to decide their own fate when requested. They wouldn't have devolved parliament's and the ability to make their own decisions.

There are times, however, when we vote as 'The UK' and at those times we have to respect the outcome.

[joeysteele]

If the 'UK' didn't take into account the feelings of the parts of the UK or of dependencies, none of them would have had referendum's to decide their own fate when requested. They wouldn't have devolved parliament's and the ability to make their own decisions.

There are times, however, when we vote as 'The UK' and at those times we have to respect the outcome.

Good luck with all that.

I shouldn't comment really as I am off out the UK this year anyway.
I do predict the UK will break up however and while sad for that.
The dictating of votes,election results from the loud minority in much larger populated England that dictates more and more against the will of so called equal Nations of the UK and other territories,coming to an end is in my view well overdue.

[MTVN]

Good luck with all that.

I shouldn't comment really as I am off out the UK this year anyway.
I do predict the UK will break up however and while sad for that.
The dictating of votes,election results from the loud minority in much larger populated England that dictates more and more against the will of so called equal Nations of the UK and other territories,coming to an end is in my view well overdue.

Are you just going to withdraw from British politics completely then Joey? Won't you miss it

[joeysteele]

Are you just going to withdraw from British politics completely then Joey? Won't you miss it

For me I will miss the political debate.

I will only be in Ireland and it's as much for family reasons as my disillusionment with UK politics and the far South of England in particular.

I personally found the EU referendum truly awful and actually scary at times when canvassing,with the hate that surfaced on some issues as to same.
Plus what has surfaced since the result too.

It doesn't surprise me that likely EU Nations will set out to make issues difficult for the UK govt.
So glad to be heading to what I see as a more forward looking Nation.
So yes while missing UK political debate,I will hold back from commenting much I guess.

Although I really hope when it eventually comes again that Scotland votes for independence,and that others then follow their lead too.

[DemolitionRed]

out of the EU, Gibraltar will essentially be surrounded by politically hostile countries, so at the end of the day, it's up to Gibraltar as they have to be able to trade with the rest of the EU easily to survive.

[thesheriff443]

Gibraltar was under English sovereignty when Britain joined the common market in 1973 before Spain had even joined the common market.

Spain needs to do more for its only people.

[Tom4784]

It's up to Gibraltar to decide, since they voted Remain in the referendum, like with Scotland and NI, I'd be for letting them decide once and for all whether they'll stay or go.

[Kizzy]

I agree, and how many referendums do they need?... Scotland it's ok Gibraltar can have a few so you can have one more :idc:

[the truth]

The EU is makings itself look petty and small. And who the hell is Spain to call the shots? The people of Gibraltar are British. There is nothing else to say.

Exactly. This is another classic example of the corrupt bully boy tactics of the defunct unaccounted bankrupt EU. Not happy with trying to charge us $60 billion for democratically leaving their disgraceful organization. They now try any dirty tactic to cling onto power, including somehow threatening us with Spains non-existent claims over Gibralter. I am prouder than ever to be a brit, a free thinking brit who simply wishes to keep my own country and our sovereignty, whilst at the same time being willing to trade and do business with the entire world. Not to forget we will now decide who will come into the country and who will not. I dont know if the numbers of people arriving will change or necessarily change, but we will be free to decide over who comes here and why. That is a profound difference.

[the truth]

It's up to Gibraltar to decide, since they voted Remain in the referendum, like with Scotland and NI, I'd be for letting them decide once and for all whether they'll stay or go.

They are part fo the UK, the UK voted remain. Anything else is treasonous. Sadly thats where the opportunists of labour have been for years, selling our country down the river , often for personal gain

[Northern Monkey]

Exactly. This is another classic example of the corrupt bully boy tactics of the defunct unaccounted bankrupt EU. Not happy with trying to charge us $60 billion for democratically leaving their disgraceful organization. They now try any dirty tactic to cling onto power, including somehow threatening us with Spains non-existent claims over Gibralter. I am prouder than ever to be a brit, a free thinking brit who simply wishes to keep my own country and our sovereignty, whilst at the same time being willing to trade and do business with the entire world. Not to forget we will now decide who will come into the country and who will not. I dont know if the numbers of people arriving will change or necessarily change, but we will be free to decide over who comes here and why. That is a profound difference.Here here:clap1:

[Kizzy]

It's a pathetic attempt to hang on tooth and claw to our colonialist past, we didn't have this hoo ha over Hong Kong...because we wouldn't effing DARE!

You want out of the EU fine! Give Spain it's bloody rock back an foff!

[Denver]

It's a pathetic attempt to hang on tooth and claw to our colonialist past, we didn't have this hoo ha over Hong Kong...because we wouldn't effing DARE!

You want out of the EU fine! Give Spain it's bloody rock back an foff!

So they can treat them like Catalonia?

[Wizard.]

We will go to war for Gibraltar. No-one will take our beloved rock!

[jaxie]

It's a pathetic attempt to hang on tooth and claw to our colonialist past, we didn't have this hoo ha over Hong Kong...because we wouldn't effing DARE!

You want out of the EU fine! Give Spain it's bloody rock back an foff!

It is about respecting the rights of the people who live there. Don't they have the same rights as the Scots in your opinion?

[arista]

It is about respecting the rights of the people who live there. Don't they have the same rights as the Scots in your opinion?


Very Valid Point jaxie

[user104658]

It is about respecting the rights of the people who live there. Don't they have the same rights as the Scots in your opinion?
Thing is, whether this is true or not, it doesn't invalidate the comparison to Hong Kong. IIRC most of the people there didn't want to go back to Chinese rule but it was effectively... Tough poop.

[joeysteele]

It's a pathetic attempt to hang on tooth and claw to our colonialist past, we didn't have this hoo ha over Hong Kong...because we wouldn't effing DARE!

You want out of the EU fine! Give Spain it's bloody rock back an foff!

It's only in the main the territory politicians want to hold onto or get.

The views of those living there don't really matter so much very sadly.

[Greg!]

I love how less than a week since article 50 being triggered, there is open conversations from politicians about going to war :joker: The UK is a JOKE

[jaxie]

Thing is, whether this is true or not, it doesn't invalidate the comparison to Hong Kong. IIRC most of the people there didn't want to go back to Chinese rule but it was effectively... Tough poop.

It is an entirely different matter since Hong Kong was only leased to the UK until 1997.

[jaxie]

It's only in the main the territory politicians want to hold onto or get.

The views of those living there don't really matter so much very sadly.

If the views of the people didn't matter why were Gibraltar able to choose in 2002?
If you are referring to Hong Kong it was leased to us and the lease ran out.

[Niamh.]

If the views of the people didn't matter why were Gibraltar able to choose in 2002?
If you are referring to Hong Kong it was leased to us and the lease ran out.

That sounds horrible, to lease out a persons homeland to another country. Gross.

[jaxie]

That sounds horrible, to lease out a persons homeland to another country. Gross.

Attitudes in the past when these kind of agreements and treaties were made were very different. I think the UK did own part of the island but 90% of the land of Hong Kong was part of the lease which was also tied up in an international treaty so there wasn't much choice but to leave Hong Kong.

[Livia]

It's a pathetic attempt to hang on tooth and claw to our colonialist past, we didn't have this hoo ha over Hong Kong...because we wouldn't effing DARE!

You want out of the EU fine! Give Spain it's bloody rock back an foff!

Holg Kong was effing leased. it was common knowledge...

If the people of Gibralter want to remain Britigh, it's not your call to say they can't.

[MTVN]

At the time I think the 99 year lease was symbolic really and a way of allowing China's rulers to save face, back then it wasn't thought that Hong Kong would actually return to China after that time but obviously the UK and China were very different countries in the 1980s than they were in 1890s

Not sure why its considered colonial of the UK to defend Gibraltar's British status given the strength of feeling there that they want to remain British. There is next to zero will in Gibraltar to return to Spanish rule despite the Brexit vote and surely Spain is the one with colonial pretensions in trying to claim the land

[Kizzy]

It is about respecting the rights of the people who live there. Don't they have the same rights as the Scots in your opinion?

They are in a very similar position in fairness, they voted to remain safe in the knowledge they were part of the EU. That is also of great importance to them, they must be feeling very conflicted.
Of course that has nothing to do with the conditions attached to the agreements signed with Spain concerning the retention of overseas territories, that may be a more complex issue.

[joeysteele]

That sounds horrible, to lease out a persons homeland to another country. Gross.

Even worse at the end of said period,when the vast majority in Hong Kong wanted things to stay as they had been for all that time, for no attempt to do anything on their behalf.

As for Gibraltar,as long as those living there support being part of the UK.
That's fine but their overwhelming view on the EU,and they are far closer to mainland Europe,that doesn't matter a jot to The UK govt or some voters of The UK either.

Selective support and consideration comes to mind.

[Kizzy]

Holg Kong was effing leased. it was common knowledge...

If the people of Gibralter want to remain Britigh, it's not your call to say they can't.

Ok calm down, I didn't say it was my call... I'm having my say in the debate is all.

[jaxie]

Even worse at the end if said period,when the vast majority in Hong Kong wanted things to stay as they had been for all that time, for no attempt to do anything on their behalf.

As for Gibraltar,as long as those living there support being part of the UK.
That's fine but their overwhelming view on the EU,and they are far closer to mainland Europe,that doesn't matter a jot to The UK govt or some voters of The UK either.

Selective support and consideration comes to mind.

A great deal was done on their behalf which is why Hong Kong has a unique status with being one country two systems. Hong Kong has it's own political system.

[Kizzy]

At the time I think the 99 year lease was symbolic really and a way of allowing China's rulers to save face, back then it wasn't thought that Hong Kong would actually return to China after that time but obviously the UK and China were very different countries in the 1980s than they were in 1890s

Not sure why its considered colonial of the UK to defend Gibraltar's British status given the strength of feeling there that they want to remain British. There is next to zero will in Gibraltar to return to Spanish rule despite the Brexit vote and surely Spain is the one with colonial pretensions in trying to claim the land

Since when did we give two hoots about the 'strength of feeling' here or anywhere in the world? :laugh:

Our PM can't get her head around our constitutional obligations so some treaty will be of no interest whatsoever.

[jaxie]

They are in a very similar position in fairness, they voted to remain safe in the knowledge they were part of the EU. That is also of great importance to them, they must be feeling very conflicted.
Of course that has nothing to do with the conditions attached to the agreements signed with Spain concerning the retention of overseas territories, that may be a more complex issue.

The issue is fairly simple. Spain gave the UK Gibraltar as part of a treat 300 years ago. The British settled Gibraltar and the descendants of those settlers run their own territory as a UK protectorate. They are self governing but under umbrella of our protection. They were asked if they wanted to go with Spain or have a shared sovreignity and chose by 99% vote to be British. Spain has no rights to them or their rock.

[jaxie]

Since when did we give two hoots about the 'strength of feeling' here or anywhere in the world? :laugh:

Our PM can't get her head around our constitutional obligations so some treaty will be of no interest whatsoever.

You really don't know how lucky you are to be British. You should read more.

[Kizzy]

You really don't know ow how lucky you are to be British. You should read more.

:joker::joker: I did...

[jaxie]

I love how less than a week since article 50 being triggered, there is open conversations from politicians about going to war :joker: The UK is a JOKE

Well one politician mentioned that it's around the anniversary of 35 years for the falklands war and that this female prime minister he was sure would defend Gibraltar as strongly as another had the Falklands. Of course typically the remark is taken out of context for sensationalism.

[Kizzy]

Well one politician mentioned that it's around the anniversary of 35 years for the falklands war and that this female prime minister he was sure would defend Gibraltar as strongly as another had the Falklands. Of course typically the remark is taken out of context for sensationalism.

'In once secret files, now tucked away in the National Archives at Kew, The Independent has discovered the outlines of a cunning plan, drawn up by a succession of far-sighted civil servants and senior military officers, for a very hard, hard Brexit. It involves the option of blowing up the Channel Tunnel with a nuclear bomb, and not telling the French what we are up to.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/hard-brexit-article-50-archives-britain-blow-up-channel-tunnel-nuclear-bomb-a7662711.html

[jaxie]

'In once secret files, now tucked away in the National Archives at Kew, The Independent has discovered the outlines of a cunning plan, drawn up by a succession of far-sighted civil servants and senior military officers, for a very hard, hard Brexit. It involves the option of blowing up the Channel Tunnel with a nuclear bomb, and not telling the French what we are up to.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/hard-brexit-article-50-archives-britain-blow-up-channel-tunnel-nuclear-bomb-a7662711.html

Says a lot about the newspaper you like quote really. :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

'In once secret files, now tucked away in the National Archives at Kew, The Independent has discovered the outlines of a cunning plan, drawn up by a succession of far-sighted civil servants and senior military officers, for a very hard, hard Brexit. It involves the option of blowing up the Channel Tunnel with a nuclear bomb, and not telling the French what we are up to.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/hard-brexit-article-50-archives-britain-blow-up-channel-tunnel-nuclear-bomb-a7662711.html

:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

On the Marr show someone was saying Spain are playing with fire if they want to play games with us because we can start too by helping Catalonia get independence.

If it came to war Spain would come off worst.We'd kick their ass.

[Kizzy]

Says a lot about the newspaper you like quote really. :shrug:

Does it... What exactly does it say, that you can't trust the British?
Because clearly you can't.

[Kizzy]

On the Marr show someone was saying Spain are playing with fire if they want to play games with us because we can start too by helping Catalonia get independence.

If it came to war Spain would come off worst.We'd kick their ass.

Yeah a world war over a rock...wouldn't surprise me, thatcher took us to war for a field. :idc:

[Northern Monkey]

Yeah a world war over a rock...wouldn't surprise me, thatcher took us to war for a field. :idc:

Good job you're not in charge then.You'd be giving away territory left right and centre.

[Kizzy]

Good job you're not in charge then.You'd be giving away territory left right and centre.

Well I wouldn't be sending other peoples kids to foreign lands to be killed for nothing if that's what you mean.

[Northern Monkey]

Well I wouldn't be sending other peoples kids to foreign lands to be killed for nothing if that's what you mean.

So Spain sends troops into Gibralter then what d'ya do?

'Si senor it's all yours'

Argentina sends troops into the Falklands?

'Si senor it's all yours'

You know the main job role of a PM is to defend their people right?

[Scarlett.]

Jesus, we've triggered Article 50 a few days ago, and already there's people talking about war with Spain. This country is delusional.

[Northern Monkey]

Jesus, we've triggered Article 50 a few days ago, and already there's people talking about war with Spain. This country is delusional.

Spain shouldn't get too big for their botas then.They're just using Brexit as an excuse to gain some extra territory.

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe we tell spain they can have Gibralter and we take Ibiza.Fair swap

[Kizzy]

It gets funnier... now it's Europes fault that May didn't mention Gibraltar in the brexit letter :joker:


'The Prime Minister and her Brexit minister David Davis were reportedly tricked into excluding the Rock from the Article 50 letter, which was personally handed to European Council president Donald Tusk on Wednesday.

Gibraltar officials claim Spanish ministers managed to persuade the Department for Exiting the European Union (Dexeu) to omit any mention of the overseas territory - despite lobbying by Gibraltar for inclusion in the wording.'

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/787227/Spain-TRICKED-Theresa-May-May-David-Davis-Gibraltar-Article-50-letter

[Scarlett.]

Spain shouldn't get too big for their botas then.They're just using Brexit as an excuse to gain some extra territory.

An Armed conflict with Spain is just stupidity, neither side can declare war, since, NATO Article 5 is a thing.

The key section of the treaty is Article 5. Its commitment clause defines the casus foederis. It commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5)

It's just politicians blustering, trying to make themselves out to be 'Defenders of the Realm'. This wont be the another Falklands.

[Kizzy]

An Armed conflict with Spain is just stupidity, neither side can declare war, since, NATO Article 5 is a thing.



Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5)

It's just politicians blustering, trying to make themselves out to be 'Defenders of the Realm'. This wont be the another Falklands.

Once we've brexitted we won't stay part of NATO... imo

[Scarlett.]

Not staying part of NATO is even stupider than Brexit, which is, pretty damn stupid itself.

[Kizzy]

Not staying part of NATO is even stupider than Brexit, which is, pretty damn stupid itself.

Oh we have Trump and China now, we don't need Europe.

[Northern Monkey]

An Armed conflict with Spain is just stupidity, neither side can declare war, since, NATO Article 5 is a thing.



Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5)

It's just politicians blustering, trying to make themselves out to be 'Defenders of the Realm'. This wont be the another Falklands.And if Spain sent troops into Gibralter then it would be them who is declaring war.Trying to annex a British territory.So you think nato would come to our aid?I doubt it.I think they'd let us sort it out.

[Scarlett.]

And if Spain sent troops into Gibralter then it would be them who is declaring war.Trying to annex a British territory.So you think nato would come to our aid?I doubt it.I think they'd let us sort it out.

I doubt Spain would be that stupid, other countries may keep out of the conflict, but Spain would most likely be ejected from NATO, and even face some trade embargoes. The idea of a modern day conflict in Europe is just... silly. Especially when Russia have been making the moves they have.

[Northern Monkey]

I doubt Spain would be that stupid, other countries may keep out of the conflict, but Spain would most likely be ejected from NATO, and even face some trade embargoes. The idea of a modern day conflict in Europe is just... silly. Especially when Russia have been making the moves they have.

Yeah its highly unlikely.Spain will back down for sure.They don't have a leg to stand on.

[Scarlett.]

Yeah its highly unlikely.Spain will back down for sure.They don't have a leg to stand on.

Hopefully, Spain generally like to make a lot of noise about stuff like this, but they don't really act on it.

[Northern Monkey]

Once we've brexitted we won't stay part of NATO... imo

Course we will.We're committed.We're already sending troops to the eastern border to defend against Russian aggression.This is crazy talk.No way NATO breaks up while Putin's flexing his muscles.

[Kizzy]

Course we will.We're committed.We're already sending troops to the eastern border to defend against Russian aggression.This is crazy talk.No way NATO breaks up while Putin's flexing his muscles.

It just my opinion, you don't have to like it :/

[Northern Monkey]

It just my opinion, you don't have to like it :/

I don't dislike it.I just don't think it's realistic

[Kizzy]

I don't dislike it.I just don't think it's realistic

Strangely I didn't have you in mind when I was formulating my opinion monkey :smug:

[Northern Monkey]

Strangely I didn't have you in mind when I was formulating my opinion monkey :smug:

Oh,You were using selective exposure?A media trick.:laugh:

[Kizzy]

Oh,You were using selective exposure?A media trick.:laugh:

See.... I told you that media degree would come in handy for something :laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

Spain shouldn't get too big for their botas then.They're just using Brexit as an excuse to gain some extra territory.

Gibraltar is another issue that wasn't raised during the referendum campaign, yet we know that Spain has been trying to get hold of it for years. The best course of action here is probably to say little, hold our nerve and wait. No need to liken it to the Falklands, no need to talk of war; it's a negotiating ploy, that's all.

[DemolitionRed]

The Truth

You know what concerns me... this ridiculous version of patriotism gone mad.

The referendum wasn’t a Labour v Conservative issue. The votes did not split down party lines. Some strong Labour areas voted to remain and some strong Labour areas voted to leave and since the vote, the Labour party leadership has remained quiet on the matter, leaving the Conservatives to argue it out between them.

Since the vote to leave, the press have completely abdicated responsibility for keeping people informed and the Labour party declines to put any weight behind Leave or Remain. All we’ve been left with is the leave campaigners jumping off the boat taking their promises of more sovereignty with them.

I made my decision but whilst I want them to push Brexit, I’m not daft enough to believe the will of 17 million leave voters are representatives of our 65 million population. It dismays me that our Parliament have become so disempowered with this ‘cast in stone’ Referendum that they can no longer consider, compromise or amend ore review critical issues.

It doesn’t take much up top to understand we no longer have a representative Parliamentary democracy. We can’t have a ‘will of the people’ without the will of Parliament.

[Livia]

Gibralter is nothing like the Falklands... unless Spain invades that British territory, and I can't see that happening. If Spain don't want to trade with us, fine. They depend on British tourism and trade far more than we depend on the Spanish.

[Brillopad]

The Truth

You know what concerns me... this ridiculous version of patriotism gone mad.

The referendum wasn’t a Labour v Conservative issue. The votes did not split down party lines. Some strong Labour areas voted to remain and some strong Labour areas voted to leave and since the vote, the Labour party leadership has remained quiet on the matter, leaving the Conservatives to argue it out between them.

Since the vote to leave, the press have completely abdicated responsibility for keeping people informed and the Labour party declines to put any weight behind Leave or Remain. All we’ve been left with is the leave campaigners jumping off the boat taking their promises of more sovereignty with them.

I made my decision but whilst I want them to push Brexit, I’m not daft enough to believe the will of 17 million leave voters are representatives of our 65 million population. It dismays me that our Parliament have become so disempowered with this ‘cast in stone’ Referendum that they can no longer consider, compromise or amend ore review critical issues.

It doesn’t take much up top to understand we no longer have a representative Parliamentary democracy. We can’t have a ‘will of the people’ without the will of Parliament.

Not an unelected Parliament. An accident of birth carries no real weight and certainly no greater knowledge.

[Northern Monkey]

Boycott Spain.Everyone go to Greece and boost their economy

[Livia]

Boycott Spain.Everyone go to Greece and boost their economy

I agree. I can live without a glass of Rioja every now and then.

[user104658]

"They need us more than we need them!"... The catch-all answer to any and every Brexit / Scottish Indy issue, apparently [emoji23]. Apparently Britain doesn't need anyone at all! Oh except maybe the US. And Saudi.

[Tom4784]

"They need us more than we need them!"... The catch-all answer to any and every Brexit / Scottish Indy issue, apparently [emoji23]. Apparently Britain doesn't need anyone at all! Oh except maybe the US. And Saudi.

It's an ignorant sentiment that will lead us to ruin. Brexit will make us more vulnerable and reliant on others countries than we have ever been. We can't have that attitude when we're hashing out deals that will decide the course of the UK's future.

[MTVN]

"They need us more than we need them!"... The catch-all answer to any and every Brexit / Scottish Indy issue, apparently [emoji23]. Apparently Britain doesn't need anyone at all! Oh except maybe the US. And Saudi.

Also the Scottish Nat view isn't it

[user104658]

Also the Scottish Nat view isn't it
No

[joeysteele]

The Truth

You know what concerns me... this ridiculous version of patriotism gone mad.

The referendum wasn’t a Labour v Conservative issue. The votes did not split down party lines. Some strong Labour areas voted to remain and some strong Labour areas voted to leave and since the vote, the Labour party leadership has remained quiet on the matter, leaving the Conservatives to argue it out between them.

Since the vote to leave, the press have completely abdicated responsibility for keeping people informed and the Labour party declines to put any weight behind Leave or Remain. All we’ve been left with is the leave campaigners jumping off the boat taking their promises of more sovereignty with them.

I made my decision but whilst I want them to push Brexit, I’m not daft enough to believe the will of 17 million leave voters are representatives of our 65 million population. It dismays me that our Parliament have become so disempowered with this ‘cast in stone’ Referendum that they can no longer consider, compromise or amend ore review critical issues.

It doesn’t take much up top to understand we no longer have a representative Parliamentary democracy. We can’t have a ‘will of the people’ without the will of Parliament.

Excellent post this in my view.

[DemolitionRed]

Excellent post this in my view.

Thanks Joey, though I'm sure others disagree.