All women must wear headscarfs out of solidarity to Muslims

[Brillopad]

The Left wing president of Austria has said ominously "and it is not only Muslim women, all women can wear a headscarf, and if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf - all - out of solidarity to those who do it for religous reasons".

Isn't this left wing PC propaganda exactly why so many have concerns about both Islam and PC. This left wing Western idiot is suggesting that all women should in time be 'forced' in one way or another to wear a headscarf to appease Muslims.

As a woman I for one will NEVER 'comply' with such garbage. Thoughts please!

[Beso]

I think you have taken this poor mans words, jumbled them up a bit then wiped your nose across your keyboard and come up with an unbiased opinion cause that man is not saying any of that at all.

[Brillopad]

I think you have taken this poor mans words, jumbled them up a bit then wiped your nose across your keyboard and come up with an unbiased opinion cause that man is not saying any of that at all.

I simply copied his words (note the quotation marks). He said it. No poor man about it.

Just look it up yourself.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Sometimes Muslim people are getting more respect than they deserve.

Just saying. I am against discrimination but majority of muslim people need a reality check that they are not the only group in this world and they need to respect others to earn respect back.

[Brillopad]

Sometimes Muslim people are getting more respect than they deserve.

Just saying. I am against discrimination but majority of muslim people need a reality check that they are not the only group in this world and they need to respect others to earn respect back.

Wise words Vanessa.

[DemolitionRed]

The Left wing president of Austria has said ominously "and it is not only Muslim women, all women can wear a headscarf, and if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf - all - out of solidarity to those who do it for religous reasons".

Isn't this left wing PC propaganda exactly why so many have concerns about both Islam and PC. This left wing Western idiot is suggesting that all women should in time be 'forced' in one way or another to wear a headscarf to appease Muslims.

As a woman I for one will NEVER 'comply' with such garbage. Thoughts please!

If you are going to quote some words from an article, then at least post the entire link because its impossible to debate without the full story.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/austrian-president-alexander-van-der-bellen-all-women-headscarves-hijab-veils-burqa-muslim-a7707166.html

[DemolitionRed]

Sometimes Muslim people are getting more respect than they deserve.

Just saying. I am against discrimination but majority of muslim people need a reality check that they are not the only group in this world and they need to respect others to earn respect back.

Wow!

I'll tell my Muslim work colleagues they need to step up their game and go and get themselves a reality check. :hehe:

[Brillopad]

If you are going to quote some words from an article, then at least post the entire link because its impossible to debate without the full story.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/austrian-president-alexander-van-der-bellen-all-women-headscarves-hijab-veils-burqa-muslim-a7707166.html

I am using a tablet and don't know to do it, I would have done otherwise.

[Kazanne]

The Left wing president of Austria has said ominously "and it is not only Muslim women, all women can wear a headscarf, and if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf - all - out of solidarity to those who do it for religous reasons".

Isn't this left wing PC propaganda exactly why so many have concerns about both Islam and PC. This left wing Western idiot is suggesting that all women should in time be 'forced' in one way or another to wear a headscarf to appease Muslims.

As a woman I for one will NEVER 'comply' with such garbage. Thoughts please!

They can kiss my little ass too,sick of cowtowing to what others want,about time we thought about what we want, and it's not women wearing headscarves,bloody idiot whoever he is.

[Brillopad]

They can kiss my little ass too,sick of cowtowing to what others want,about time we thought about what we want, and it's not women wearing headscarves,bloody idiot whoever he is.

My thoughts exactly Kazanne - what next I wonder!

[DemolitionRed]

I agree that women in the West shouldn't wear the niqab but why would we stop them wearing a headscarf? Is it because its an expression their religious belief, because if so, we should also stop Hindus wearing the sari, the Sikh wearing the turban, the Jews wearing the kippah and the nuns and orthodox Christians wearing the habit.

Its a headscarf ffs.

[Kazanne]

My thoughts exactly Kazanne - what next I wonder!

We'll be told to stay at home and do the dishes next :laugh: because we all know how superior some think they are.

[user104658]

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

[Kazanne]

I agree that women in the West shouldn't wear the niqab but why would we stop them wearing a headscarf? Is it because its an expression their religious belief, because if so, we should also stop Hindus wearing the sari, the Sikh wearing the turban, the Jews wearing the kippah and the nuns and orthodox Christians wearing the habit.

Its a headscarf ffs.

Well in todays climate it's good to see people faces,so the full face thing should be a thing of the past,nothing to do with religion,more to do with safety I would think,if they want to wear a headscarf fair enough but it shouldn't be forced on anyone to do so.

[Brillopad]

I agree that women in the West shouldn't wear the niqab but why would we stop them wearing a headscarf? Is it because its an expression their religious belief, because if so, we should also stop Hindus wearing the sari, the Sikh wearing the turban, the Jews wearing the kippah and the nuns and orthodox Christians wearing the habit.

Its a headscarf ffs.

Personally I don't have a problem with the headscarf but for a Western politician to even suggest all women should wear one to support a given religion is worrying and completly unacceptable.

[user104658]

We'll be told to stay at home and do the dishes next [emoji23] because we all know how superior some think they are.
9gSQg1i_q2g

[Kazanne]

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

Calm down and drink tea,:hee:Why should he even be asking us? or suggesting it,people moan about religion yet want us to all do it 'their religion'
maybe we should all don a crown of thorns in solidarity for the Christian religion,it's every womans right to dress how she wants,so why does he need to even ask such a question?

[Kazanne]

Personally I don't have a problem with the headscarf but for a Western politician to even suggest all women should wear one to support a given religion is worrying and completly unacceptable.

Correct.

[DemolitionRed]

My thoughts exactly Kazanne - what next I wonder!

I stopped yesterday because I heard this old woman having a right old rant at a big issue seller. She was a Rumanian Orthodox Christian so her head was covered and she wore a long skirt. The intolerant old woman clearly thought she was a Muslim and believed she had some divine right to relieve her bitter and pent up hatred on her. That is the second time in as many weeks that I've seen this happen.

This is what we are going to see more and more of. This is what's next.... pent up anger and hatred spat out at Muslims or people mistaken for Muslims. People feeling brave enough to show that hatred and intolerance because they know they've now got more support than they've ever had.

What comes after 'next'? a badge?

[Cherie]

In fairness he also said this

“He also warned against ‘racism from the other side’, giving the example of a Muslim taxi driver refusing to take Orthodox Jews,” a statement said, adding: “This is absolutely unacceptable.”

I don't really get his point about wearing headscarves in solidarity, given a lot of Muslim women wear the scarves to please their husbands rather than for religious reasons. I work with a number of Muslim ladies the older ladies observe Ramadan and don't wear headscarves, the younger ones wear headscarves but only did so when they got married, I don't think either group would want me to wear a headscarf in solidarity with them :shrug:

[Brillopad]

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

Such a 'suggestion' is pretty OTT - so how long before some attempt to make it more than that. That is the point. Are women's rights going to be superseeded by religious doctrine?

I can assure you I wanted to post the link but couldn't, so DR did me a favour - I could hardly type the whole thing could I. But I did quote his own words. So a valiant effort to imply I was being 'selective' with my post.

[user104658]

Such a 'suggestion' is pretty OTT - so how long before some attempt to make it more than that. That is the point. Are women's rights going to be superseeded by religious doctrine?

I can assure you I wanted to post the link but couldn't, so DR did me a favour - I could hardly type the whole thing could I. But I did quote his own words. So a valiant effort to imply I was being 'selective' with my post.
You were being selective because he also quite clearly stated that he believes it is everyone's right to wear whatever they want - which you conveniently chose to ignore to fit your own, paranoid, version of the story.

[Cherie]

Calm down and drink tea,:hee:Why should he even be asking us? or suggesting it,people moan about religion yet want us to all do it 'their religion'
maybe we should all don a crown of thorns in solidarity for the Christian religion,it's every womans right to dress how she wants,so why does he need to even ask such a question?

Absolutely

[user104658]

Calm down and drink tea,:hee:Why should he even be asking us? or suggesting it,people moan about religion yet want us to all do it 'their religion'
maybe we should all don a crown of thorns in solidarity for the Christian religion,it's every womans right to dress how she wants,so why does he need to even ask such a question?
He's saying that IF there is a drive to BAN the headscarf for Muslim women, all others who believe as he does that people should be able to wear whatever they want, should IN SOLIDARITY, IF THEY WANT TO, defy the ban and wear a headscarf as a protest.

Jesus Christ did this forum make it past primary school critical reading level?

[DemolitionRed]

Personally I don't have a problem with the headscarf but for a Western politician to even suggest all women should wear one to support a given religion is worrying and completly unacceptable.

On the 2nd of January this year was a day of global solidarity for the Muslim headscarf. The message was, "I have the freedom to wear what I want"

[Cherie]

On the 2nd of January this year was a day of global solidarity for the Muslim headscarf. The message was, "I have the freedom to wear what I want"

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

[Brillopad]

On the 2nd of January this year was a day of global solidarity for the Muslim headscarf. The message was, "I have the freedom to wear what I want"

Why would any woman want to wear a garment that represents female subjugation? That is not how most Western women today want Western women or men to think. I think that the fact that so many Muslim women still do speaks volumes and is not a way of thinking that should be encouraged in the West.

What about integration and mutual respect? It is disrespectful to Western women who believe in gender equality. Why should a minority's freedoms override those of the majority?

I find the whole thing extremely manipulative.

[Brillopad]

You were being selective because he also quite clearly stated that he believes it is everyone's right to wear whatever they want - which you conveniently chose to ignore to fit your own, paranoid, version of the story.

He did which is very contradictory when supporting the choice to wear garments that attempt to undermine female equality. It is clearly at odds with the majority view in the West.

No thought to the message that would give and the long-term impact that could have on female equality has been given. Who knows maybe he is just sexist underneath all that rhetoric.

[DemolitionRed]

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

Muslim women and Orthodox Christian women are brought up differently to us. They are taught from an early age that a woman will only be respected by god if she shows modesty and a Muslim woman's hair is seen by those who are practising Muslims as the most sensual thing she posses.

You could compare that with the way we see a woman's breasts in the West. If we went over to Africa and mixed with tribal women who went about their work topless, would we feel comfortable doing the same? I probably wouldn't because it would make me feel vulnerable.

[Brillopad]

Do they though or in some cases are their husbands dictating?

No doubt that is one reason. The other is indoctrination. The percentage of women doing so due to 'freedom of choice' is questionable.

As we have witnessed very recently some Muslim women also hold extremist views and the tiny minority who do actually 'choose' to should not have their 'rights' superseed the equality laws of the country they choose to live in.

[DemolitionRed]

Why would any woman want to wear a garment that represents female subjugation? That is not how most Western women today want Western women or men to think. I think that the fact that so many Muslim women still do speaks volumes and is not a way of thinking that should be encouraged in the West.

What about integration and mutual respect? It is disrespectful to Western women who believe in gender equality. Why should a minority's freedoms override those of the majority?

I find the whole thing extremely manipulative.

Stop it with the subjugation. Of course some family members insist on their women folks covering but the majority of these women just consider themselves true to their faith. Its no different to a Sikh being brought up never to cut his hair and wear a turban when out or Orthodox Christians, Catholic nuns or Orthodox men wearing their religious garb. Are Orthodox Jewish boys subjugated because they wear head covering. Are married Orthodox Jewish women subjugated because under the eyes of God they should cover their hair when out (normally a wig). You can't say Muslim women are subjugated without putting all these people in the same category.

Edited to add. Its the same for indoctrination.

[user104658]

The other is indoctrination.

But that's true of all religious activity, across all religions. It's certainly not a "Muslim issue" so it grates on me when people want to pick and choose like that.

I personally would like to see ALL religion go the way of the dodo. Or the dragon, perhaps, as dodos did actually exist once. But that's not really relevant when it comes to discussing specific indoctrinations and belief systems. If you are against indoctrination, you should be equally opposed to all organised religions.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Wow!

I'll tell my Muslim work colleagues they need to step up their game and go and get themselves a reality check. :hehe:

I think as a former muslim and living in a society where it is getting ruined day by day because we gave tolerated these people too much i know a lot more how majority of the muslims think than you. You can be sarcastic all you want but there is a great danger waiting for all societies and there are great societies have been ruined by radical islam.

Nobody is saying all muslims are included in this criteria but a message needs to be given out that some people need to get out of their deluded bubbles that their beliefs and life styles are not the only thing in this world.

There are actually gay people getting tortured in russia, they are stealing our hard earned 100 year old rights in turkey and has anyone did or even say something about this? No because everybody is self centered only care about what is in front of them. But everyone gets riled about something small happens like comment sections in daily mail or a woman wearing burka while doing a sport.

[Cherie]

Muslim women and Orthodox Christian women are brought up differently to us. They are taught from an early age that a woman will only be respected by god if she shows modesty and a Muslim woman's hair is seen by those who are practising Muslims as the most sensual thing she posses.

You could compare that with the way we see a woman's breasts in the West. If we went over to Africa and mixed with tribal women who went about their work topless, would we feel comfortable doing the same? I probably wouldn't because it would make me feel vulnerable.

The ladies I work with are English, none of them wore a headscarf before they were married, they only did so to please their husbands they openly speak about it in the staff room, while the older Muslim ladies don't wear any so there are varying reasons why women wear headscarfs some to so for faith, some do so to please their partners, some because they live with strict parents/in laws some do it out of choice, some don't, I do believe women should have the choice but sadly they don't always have one

[VanessaFeltz.]

Also many muslim women get viciously manipulated that if they dont wear burka/hijab they will go to hell or that they are filthy. I was in a fairly liberal family and i didnt know about atheism or that any other beliefs other than Islam/Christianity till i was 14 years old. You cant talk about decisions when you are not given information about other things.

[Kazanne]

He's saying that IF there is a drive to BAN the headscarf for Muslim women, all others who believe as he does that people should be able to wear whatever they want, should IN SOLIDARITY, IF THEY WANT TO, defy the ban and wear a headscarf as a protest.

Jesus Christ did this forum make it past primary school critical reading level?

What has Jesus Christ got to do with this ? so it's alright for you to insult the Christian religion by being blaspheming but we dare not mention anything to do with a muslim woman's clothes and what we should do ?without you insinuating people are ill educated,IF he believes we should all be wearing what we want to,there was no need for his silly comment was there ?carry on with your thinly veiled insults it's to be expected.

[user104658]

What has Jesus Christ got to do with this ? so it's alright for you to insult the Christian religion by being blaspheming but we dare not mention anything to do with a muslim woman's clothes and what we should do ?without you insinuating people are ill educated,IF he believes we should all be wearing what we want to,there was no need for his silly comment was there ?carry on with your thinly veiled insults it's to be expected.
It's alright to say what you want - like I said in another post, I am openly anti religion, equal opportunities all religions the same - but "blaspheming" is completely different to banning, or controlling, what people can and can't wear. I think organised religion is superstitious nonsense but I will also defend anyone's right to believe in whatever superstitious nonsense they feel like believing in.

[DemolitionRed]

I think as a former muslim and living in a society where it is getting ruined day by day because we gave tolerated these people too much i know a lot more how majority of the muslims think than you. You can be sarcastic all you want but there is a great danger waiting for all societies and there are great societies have been ruined by radical islam.

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

[Brillopad]

It's alright to say what you want - like I said in another post, I am openly anti religion, equal opportunities all religions the same - but "blaspheming" is completely different to banning, or controlling, what people can and can't wear. I think organised religion is superstitious nonsense but I will also defend anyone's right to believe in whatever superstitious nonsense they feel like believing in.

Don't you think that intervention in certain religious practices is unavoidable i.e. Female mutalation, enforced marriages etc. Some religious practices must be banned in the West. Many also happen to believe that any attempt to undermine female equality is one of them.

Like you I believe religion is superstitious nonsense, but I also believe if that's the way some religions want to carry on they should not be allowed to do so here.

[Brillopad]

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

It sounds like you both have knowledge and experience on the subject but have different views. It certainly doesn't mean that an informed view that is different to yours is laughable. Different experiences and views.

Both are equally valid.

[Cherie]

Your assumption is wrong. There is only one person who knows my history on here and that's Kirk. I know if he was here he'd be pming me and laughing at your suggestion of knowing more than me.

VF lives in Turkey I think he knows what he is talking about

[DemolitionRed]

The ladies I work with are English, none of them wore a headscarf before they were married, they only did so to please their husbands they openly speak about it in the staff room, while the older Muslim ladies don't wear any so there are varying reasons why women wear headscarfs some to so for faith, some do so to please their partners, some because they live with strict parents/in laws some do it out of choice, some don't, I do believe women should have the choice but sadly they don't always have one

But the women were brought up to follow Islam and Islam teaches women to cover their hair out of respect for both God and their husband. Many women cover their hair before marriage and immediately they change from girl to women. For most young women, they day they put on Hijab is a proud day because its a celebration of womanhood. For a few, they hide the fact they have started their mensa because they know what is expected of them.

[Withano]

PC gone mad when you cant even ask people if they would want to volunteer to wear something under a hypothetical scenario without them getting all upset about it

who is the most unique of all snowflakes is the real debate here

[Brillopad]

PC gone mad when you cant even ask people if they would want to volunteer to wear something under a hypothetical scenario without them getting all upset about it

who is the most unique of all snowflakes is the real debate here

Why suggest 'all' then as that was clearly never going to happen voluntarily. Even a left wing politician should understand that.

As I have said before if you are, as usual, going to resort to insults then you clearly have nothing worth listening to. :wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

VF lives in Turkey I think he knows what he is talking about

Perhaps so but he made an accusation that he knows more about Muslims than I do and that was a presumption on his part. He probably knows more Sunni's and less Shia's than I do but perhaps I'm making presumptions like he did

[Withano]

Why suggest 'all' then as that was clearly never going to happen voluntarily. Even a left wing politician should understand that.

As I have said before if you are, as usual, going to resort to insults then you clearly have nothing worth listening to. :wavey:

All will be asked if they would like to volunteer (in this, still, hypothetical situation) :shrug: you got a little mad over nothing here

[smudgie]

If I was asked to wear a headscarf for a day in support of ANY woman being allowed to wear one then I would.
Hiding your hair does not hide your identity so poses no security or trust issues, my doctor wears hers to work, I doubt she is bowing to her husbands demands, more a question of her wanting to wear it.

[Kazanne]

All will be asked if they would like to volunteer (in this, still, hypothetical situation) :shrug: you got a little mad over nothing here

The only 'mad' ones I see on here are the ones driven to insult people with a different opinion,now THAT is losing a debate.

[Kazanne]

If I was asked to wear a headscarf for a day in support of ANY woman being allowed to wear one then I would.
Hiding your hair does not hide your identity so poses no security or trust issues, my doctor wears hers to work, I doubt she is bowing to her husbands demands, more a question of her wanting to wear it.

I agree with that Smudgie,I do however have an issue with this one https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ME_zxymgIzeo7tobnmvwDAEsCo&w=257&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7 simply because it has been used in terrorist actions before,all well and good in private but not on our streets,they are dangerous enough.

[Tom4784]

A very misleading thread, if you can't post the whole article then do not cherry pick the parts that suit your agenda since it's not representative of what's been said and leads to a flawed discussion.

I believe that women should wear what they wish to wear with exceptions made to clothes that cover the face in areas where hiding your identity is not ideal. A headscarf does not obscure someone's identity and so I don't have a problem with it.

[Scarlett.]

The Left wing president of Austria has said ominously "and it is not only Muslim women, all women can wear a headscarf, and if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf - all - out of solidarity to those who do it for religous reasons".

Isn't this left wing PC propaganda exactly why so many have concerns about both Islam and PC. This left wing Western idiot is suggesting that all women should in time be 'forced' in one way or another to wear a headscarf to appease Muslims.

As a woman I for one will NEVER 'comply' with such garbage. Thoughts please!

You'd force Muslim women to comply with your garbage though wouldn't you?

[Brillopad]

I agree with that Smudgie,I do however have an issue with this one https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ME_zxymgIzeo7tobnmvwDAEsCo&w=257&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7 simply because it has been used in terrorist actions before,all well and good in private but not on our streets,they are dangerous enough.

I agree. The wearing of the face coverings is an entirely different subject. They are oppressive, pose a security risk, are a health hazard and look awful.

I would also imagine Western babies and young children would be pretty frightened if someone wearing one got too close. Scary looking things.

[Brillopad]

You'd force Muslim women to comply with your garbage though wouldn't you?

If I chose to live in Saudi I would abide by their rules - It's called respect. Hence I wouldn't ever choose to live there.

[Brillopad]

A very misleading thread, if you can't post the whole article then do not cherry pick the parts that suit your agenda since it's not representative of what's been said and leads to a flawed discussion.



I have already explained why I couldn't copy the link across, but it is now there for all to see. As many do I quoted the bit I was objecting to and gave my opinion, so what exactly is your issue with that.

[smudgie]

I agree with that Smudgie,I do however have an issue with this one https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ME_zxymgIzeo7tobnmvwDAEsCo&w=257&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7 simply because it has been used in terrorist actions before,all well and good in private but not on our streets,they are dangerous enough.

I would not feel comfortable with my doctor wearing that to work, or teachers in school.
I think you need to be able to read someone's face when you have an important conversation.

[Tom4784]

I have already explained why I couldn't copy the link across, but it is now there for all to see. As many do I quoted the bit I was objecting to and gave my opinion, so what exactly is your issue with that.

I've already said...

[Brillopad]

I've already said...

Which did not take all the facts into account.

[Beso]

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

Tthis is what i meant.

[Withano]

The only 'mad' ones I see on here are the ones driven to insult people with a different opinion,now THAT is losing a debate.

Obviously i meant mad as in cross/angry. It doesnt even read well with the other definition of mad, so I'm not sure what it is about Brillo that made you think I meant it in that way.

[Brillopad]

Obviously i meant mad as in cross/angry. It doesnt even read well with the other definition of mad, so I'm not sure what it is about Brillo that made you think I meant it in that way.

I think it had more to do with you. :laugh:

[Withano]

I think it had more to do with you. :laugh:

No I doubt it, she already kicked up a fuss about people insulting each other. I dont think shes hypocrite enough to insult me in the same post.

[Brillopad]

Obviously i meant mad as in cross/angry. It doesnt even read well with the other definition of mad, so I'm not sure what it is about Brillo that made you think I meant it in that way.

You claim not to read it that way for obvious reasons. You are attempting to be funny and insulting in the same breath. Once again you proved her right.

[Withano]

You claim not to read it that way for obvious reasons. You are attempting to be funny and insulting in the same breath. Once again you proved her right.

Obviously i meant mad as in cross/angry. It doesnt even read well with the other definition of mad

Stop baiting
Besides, you've already implied to me what youre suggesting I've implied to you.. so stop being a hypocrite whilst you're at it

I think it had more to do with you. :laugh:

[Brillopad]

Stop baiting

Like you were. Are there different rules for you then?

It doesn't matter what little bits you conveniently quote people can read.

[Tom4784]

Which did not take all the facts into account.

It doesn't change the fact that, if you actually wanted to represent the actual story, then you could have typed out a sentence or two more from the article that balanced out your bias and gave us something solid to discuss.

[Brillopad]

It doesn't change the fact that, if you actually wanted to represent the actual story, then you could have typed out a sentence or two more from the article that balanced out your bias and gave us something solid to discuss.

Nope, I thought people would look it up as it is a subject many are interested in, on both sides of the argument. People want to see the full article - that is to be expected.

I also hoped someone would copy it across and they did quite early on in the thread, so many had access to it on which they could base their response.

[Withano]

Like you were. Are there different rules for you then?

It doesn't matter what little bits you conveniently quote people can read.

You seem mad, maybe take a breather.

[Brillopad]

You seem mad, maybe take a breather.

Ditto.

[Kazanne]

I would not feel comfortable with my doctor wearing that to work, or teachers in school.
I think you need to be able to read someone's face when you have an important conversation.

Exactly Smudgie:wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

If I chose to live in Saudi I would abide by their rules - It's called respect. Hence I wouldn't ever choose to live there.

Fortunately we don't have such rules of dress here. The only western uniform restrictions is, no women walking around topless or anyone walk around naked and its frowned upon if you walk to your local shop in your dressing gown and slippers. Other than that, we are free to wear what we want.

[Kazanne]

Obviously i meant mad as in cross/angry. It doesnt even read well with the other definition of mad, so I'm not sure what it is about Brillo that made you think I meant it in that way.

Nothing wrong with people being passionate about things that matter to them,no need to try shooting them down with so called smart arse remarks,I have not seen any madness in Brillo whatsoever ,the people that are mad as in angry are the ones doing the insulting,funny that,now I am mad:fist:

[Brillopad]

Fortunately we don't have such rules of dress here. The only western uniform restrictions is, no women walking around topless or anyone walk around naked and its frowned upon if you walk to your local shop in your dressing gown and slippers. Other than that, we are free to wear what we want.

Is it okay for someone to walk around in a hooded robe with KKK plastered all over it or teeshirts with very offensive racist comments/gay comments. I don't know the precise rules on this but I would imagine not. The burkha/niqab are equally as offensive to women's rights to equality.

[jennyjuniper]

The Left wing president of Austria has said ominously "and it is not only Muslim women, all women can wear a headscarf, and if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf - all - out of solidarity to those who do it for religous reasons".

Isn't this left wing PC propaganda exactly why so many have concerns about both Islam and PC. This left wing Western idiot is suggesting that all women should in time be 'forced' in one way or another to wear a headscarf to appease Muslims.

As a woman I for one will NEVER 'comply' with such garbage. Thoughts please!

Me neither. This idiot is asking to increase islamaphobia by even suggesting that women should be forced to wear a headgear that is only the result of muslim mens insecurity.He makes a good muslim puppet though doesn't he.:fist:

[Tom4784]

Is it okay for someone to walk around in a hooded robe with KKK plastered all over it or teeshirts with very offensive racist comments/gay comments. I don't know the precise rules on this but I would imagine not. The burkha/niqab are equally as offensive to women's rights to equality.

Inciting hatred is a crime. Wearing a head dress of any kind is not a hate crime and is thus incomparable.

I'd imagine limiting a woman's choice of clothing by banning head dresses is also offensive to women's rights as it's dictating what they can or cannot wear. Banning an item of clothing that doesn't incite hatred is a pointless endeavour, I think restricting it like you would a hoodie or a mask in certain places is fine but a ban is flawed.

[Brillopad]

Inciting hatred is a crime. Wearing a head dress of any kind is not a hate crime and is thus incomparable.

I'd imagine limiting a woman's choice of clothing by banning head dresses is also offensive to women's rights as it's dictating what they can or cannot wear. Banning an item of clothing that doesn't incite hatred is a pointless endeavour, I think restricting it like you would a hoodie or a mask in certain places is fine but a ban is flawed.

The wearing of burkhas etc is tantamount to wearing a tee shirt stating women are second-class citizens and unequal to their male counterparts - the property of men - is that not hatred? Just because the law hasn't quite recognised that yet doesn't mean it isn't and doesn't mean it won't.

[jaxie]

It is sort of disturbing to see how desperately people defend mysogianistic religious conditioning practices. Maybe one day the world will wise up. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

The wearing of burkhas etc is tantamount to wearing a tee shirt stating women are second-class citizens and unequal to their male counterparts - is that not hatred. Just because the law hasn't quite recognised that yet doesn't mean it isn't and doesn't mean it won't.

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban. I don't really agree with banning a clothing item because of one interpretation of it.

As I said before, my only real view on the issue is that, like with all face obscuring clothes, they should be limited in areas where people need to be easily identified. I don't really see the merit of regulating clothing choice otherwise.

[jaxie]

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban. I don't really agree with banning a clothing item because of one interpretation of it.

As I said before, my only real view on the issue is that, like with all face obscuring clothes, they should be limited in areas where people need to be easily identified. I don't really see the merit of regulating clothing choice otherwise.

Don't forget how hard it must be to actually make friends with anyone with your face covered. This is why some muslim women are consistantly isolated at the school gates.

[Tom4784]

Don't forget how hard it must be to actually make friends with anyone with your face covered. This is why some muslim women are consistantly isolated at the school gates.

If that's their choice though then there's nothing to be said.

[Brillopad]

But that's your interpretation of the Burkha. When you look at times in other countries where things like the Burkha have been banned or there's been talk of a ban, it's often Muslim women who are vocal in their opposition to the said ban.



But I wonder how many of those women are just doing as they are told - forced to spout the men's words because the men know they can't. Maybe such a belief is not actually helping them. There are a lot of ifs and buts - enough to cast a lot of doubt on the validity of such 'opposition'.

But at the end of the day, as far as I and many other women are concerned, it is challenging female equality in a country that has equality laws to supposedly protect women from such backward beliefs towards women and their equality and is therefore offensive to women. In comparison the 'right' to wear what you want is not equal - it's trivial.

Technically we are not allowed to wear what we want anyway - that is a misconception to direct attention away from the real issue. There are rules about decency, racial/homosexual hatred etc and various other dress codes, so why is an exception made for this particular religion when it is offensive to about 50% of the population. It makes one doubt how 'equal' women really are in this country.

[jaxie]

If that's their choice though then there's nothing to be said.

Except it is rarely their choice, it is conditioning. :shrug:

[VanessaFeltz.]

Perhaps so but he made an accusation that he knows more about Muslims than I do and that was a presumption on his part. He probably knows more Sunni's and less Shia's than I do but perhaps I'm making presumptions like he did

My presumption was wrong and i admit my mistake and i am taking that part back.

In other points i am still laying out the same arguments i did in my post. When people group up in that kind of place they are not exposed to other options until they are very old and as you get older you are more likely to hold onto what you were taught. If a person has a chance to see other lifestyles and decide to be muslim and follow the religion that is up to them.

[VanessaFeltz.]

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

[Withano]

You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

:clap1:

[Brillopad]

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

[Withano]

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

But there is nothing about british values/culture that suggests a burqua should be banned.
You designed a new British ideology based around your personal insecurities, not the law of the land and its values.

[Kazanne]

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

Fully agree Brillo.

[Brillopad]

Fully agree Brillo.

Sometimes you feel you are hitting your head against a brick wall - no doubt it would be different if male equality was being challenged in this way.

Many pay lip service to believing in female equality, but talk is cheap and actions really do speak louder than words in my book.

[VanessaFeltz.]

I don't see that expecting people who chose to live a certain country to respect the values and culture of that country as oppression.

Integration is key to success and wearing clothing that shouts female subjugation and undermines equality is not integration.

%100 disagree.

A country's laws should respect and protect EVERYONE not just the majority. Yes people entering a new country should respect other people and their rights but you cant make other people wear whatever you want them to wear. Not every women wants to wear burka in countries like saudi arabia but they are forced to wear those clothes. They dont have a chance to live in another country and they suffer because of other peoples actions. That is why i am upset with majority of the muslim people because they get upset at people who dont grant the rights they deserve while they dont respect or grant the rights other people deserve. If we do the same thing, then how we can ask respect from other people?

In short saying "respect the laws" is a weak argument to make when laws dont respect the people who work and contribute to the said society.

[Northern Monkey]

Does anybody even want to ban headscarves?
I don't see why they're a problem.
I thought it was just the full letterbox style assassin mask that people want banned?Which i totally agree with.
People's faces shouldn't be unrecognisable in public.For one it diminishes the whole idea of CCTV.

[Beso]

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

As long as the burka ban is not a blanket ban it should work.

[Brother Leon]

TiBB coming like Stormfront these days with the propaganda. What a mess.

[Brillopad]

TiBB coming like Stormfront these days with the propaganda. What a mess.

Typical left wing rubbish. Pot and kettle.

[Tom4784]

Except it is rarely their choice, it is conditioning. :shrug:

But I wonder how many of those women are just doing as they are told - forced to spout the men's words because the men know they can't. Maybe such a belief is not actually helping them. There are a lot of ifs and buts - enough to cast a lot of doubt on the validity of such 'opposition'.

But at the end of the day, as far as I and many other women are concerned, it is challenging female equality in a country that has equality laws to supposedly protect women from such backward beliefs towards women and their equality and is therefore offensive to women. In comparison the 'right' to wear what you want is not equal - it's trivial.

Technically we are not allowed to wear what we want anyway - that is a misconception to direct attention away from the real issue. There are rules about decency, racial/homosexual hatred etc and various other dress codes, so why is an exception made for this particular religion when it is offensive to about 50% of the population. It makes one doubt how 'equal' women really are in this country.

Both of these posts are incredibly patronising towards Muslim women.

Brillo, Your point of view is ultimately hypocritical, you've taken your view of what the Burkha stands for and you are passing it off as fact as a way of telling women what they can and cannot wear. Feminism is about equality but also the freedom of choice, if a woman wants to wear a Burkha then that is her choice to do so, of course there are controlling husbands/boyfriends etc out there. It's quite common in abusive relationships for the abuser to tell the abused how to dress and that's something that happens in relationships regardless of creed or race. You can't use that as an excuse to dictate to other women what is acceptable or not depending on your own standards.

[DemolitionRed]

My presumption was wrong and i admit my mistake and i am taking that part back.

In other points i am still laying out the same arguments i did in my post. When people group up in that kind of place they are not exposed to other options until they are very old and as you get older you are more likely to hold onto what you were taught. If a person has a chance to see other lifestyles and decide to be muslim and follow the religion that is up to them.

Thank you VF and yes, I agree with your second paragraph.

[Kizzy]

I agree. The wearing of the face coverings is an entirely different subject. They are oppressive, pose a security risk, are a health hazard and look awful.

I would also imagine Western babies and young children would be pretty frightened if someone wearing one got too close. Scary looking things.

Only if they've been socialised to express a prejudice.

[Brillopad]

Both of these posts are incredibly patronising towards Muslim women.

Brillo, Your point of view is ultimately hypocritical, you've taken your view of what the Burkha stands for and you are passing it off as fact as a way of telling women what they can and cannot wear. Feminism is about equality but also the freedom of choice, if a woman wants to wear a Burkha then that is her choice to do so, of course there are controlling husbands/boyfriends etc out there. It's quite common in abusive relationships for the abuser to tell the abused how to dress and that's something that happens in relationships regardless of creed or race. You can't use that as an excuse to dictate to other women what is acceptable or not depending on your own standards.

I don't believe I am being hypocritical. It is commmon knowledge what the burkha represents - it isn't simply my opinion.

Yes it is quite common for men to abuse and control women across the board, but being afraid to challenge this unacceptable behaviour in some cultures/religous groups is also unacceptable. Religious belief is no excuse.

The wearing of such clothing is demonstrating hatred of women and a disrespect for women's rights whether coming from men or a small minority of women who have been 'encouraged', by whatever means, to believe this. Why should the obvious hatred of women be more tolerable than hatred of race or sexual orientation?

There is no difference and to act as if there is - is what is hypocritical in my book and I would hope in most peoples' books.

[Brillopad]

Only if they've been socialised to express a prejudice.

Are you serious- babies don't understand prejudice, but the sight of that black, bold tent with eyes staring out of it would understandably frighten them.

Given what the wearing of them represents I would also hope that it isn't a sight most people would want our children to get used to.

[DemolitionRed]

Also banning burkas are not going to be a solution.. or china banning muslim names. You cant get your point across against oppression when you are oppressing them yourself.

Exactly!

And banning a garment does not protect women from the cultural backlash. it has to start with a freedom of choice and equity for women. Right now I feel laws banning the garment will only add to the shaming and negative connotation that is put on these religious or cultural garments.

Some women choose to wear this garment proudly, some hate that they have to wear it. Its a socially constructed issue that no law can fix. Even if laws were made that gave each person a choice to wear or not wear the applicable attire, that wouldn't change the general consensus of acceptable behaviour in dress.

That is something only time and greater acceptance can accomplish.

[DemolitionRed]

The banning in France has caused more trouble than its worth. Some women are no longer allowed to leave their front door by their patriarchal husbands/fathers and for those that protested by ignoring the ban, there have been a number of hate crimes, including a pregnant woman who was so badly beaten, she lost her baby.

[Tom4784]

I don't believe I am being hypocritical. It is commmon knowledge what the burkha represents - it isn't simply my opinion.

Yes it is quite common for men to abuse and control women across the board, but being afraid to challenge this unacceptable behaviour in some cultures/religous groups is also unacceptable. Religious belief is no excuse.

The wearing of such clothing is demonstrating hatred of women and a disrespect for women's rights whether coming from men or a small minority of women who have been 'encouraged', by whatever means, to believe this. Why should the obvious hatred of women be more tolerable than hatred of race or sexual orientation?

There is no difference and to act as if there is - is what is hypocritical in my book and I would hope in most peoples' books.

People who are capable of abuse are capable of it with or without religion. Blaming religion won't fix the issue. It's not about fear, it's about knowing that blaming a religion won't do **** to actually solve the issue of abuse. Islam could disappear from the world overnight and people who would have engaged in domestic abuse would still do so because it's less about religion and more of a personality flaw that abusers all share.

Again, you are assuming your interpretation of headscarves is the only interpretation of it. There would be plenty of independent Muslim women who would defend their right to wear their religious dress because they believe differently and their beliefs can from an informed place. This is something that's been proven by the women-led protests against banning Muslim headwear in the past.

Are they all simpletons that have been led astray and are incapable of thinking for themselves? Of course they aren't, it's not very feminist to denounce an entire group of women for fighting for their rights to wear what they please.

[Brillopad]

People who are capable of abuse are capable of it with or without religion. Blaming religion won't fix the issue. It's not about fear, it's about knowing that blaming a religion won't do **** to actually solve the issue of abuse. Islam could disappear from the world overnight and people who would have engaged in domestic abuse would still do so because it's less about religion and more of a personality flaw that abusers all share.

Again, you are assuming your interpretation of headscarves is the only interpretation of it. There would be plenty of independent Muslim women who would defend their right to wear their religious dress because they believe differently and their beliefs can from an informed place. This is something that's been proven by the women-led protests against banning Muslim headwear in the past.

Are they all simpletons that have been led astray and are incapable of thinking for themselves? Of course they aren't, it's not very feminist to denounce an entire group of women for fighting for their rights to wear what they please.

I have made it clear in previous posts that I have no issues with 'headscarves'. My issues, like many, are with full face and body coverings - niqabs and burkhas. However I don't feel that any male politician should be suggesting all Western women should wear headscarves out of solidarity for a single religion - a religion whose values many do not agree with. As a non-religious woman I don't feel any solidarity with women who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons. Why would any non-Muslim woman want to endorse such beliefs. Personally to do so would be against my own belief that religion is simply superstition. I feel his motivations are simply based on his own PC opinions.

I know such control is about personality flaws in men - the point I am making is that religion is being used by these men to 'justify' their behaviours. We know from experience that male security guards, for instance , have been reluctant to Stop and search Muslim women wearing niqabs and burkhas because of 'relgious' implications. Muslim men know the West are fearful of causing 'offence' by doing so with the obvious security implications of that.

Security being just one issue.

[Tom4784]

I have made it clear in previous posts that I have no issues with 'headscarves'. My issues, like many, are with full face and body coverings - niqabs and burkhas. However I don't feel that any male politician should be suggesting all Western women should wear headscarves out of solidarity for a single religion - a religion whose values many do not agree with. As a non-religious woman I don't feel any solidarity with women who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons. To do so would be against my own belief that religion is simply superstition - I feel his motivations are simply based on his own PC opinions.

I know such control is about personality flaws in men - the point I am making is that religion is being used by these men to 'justify' their behaviours. We know from experience that male security guards, for instance , have been reluctant to Stop and search Muslim women wearing niqabs and burkhas because of 'relgious' implications. Muslim men know the West are fearful of causing 'offence' by doing so with the obvious security implications of that.

Security being just one issue.

The politician can suggest what he wants, he's not actually demanding anything of anyone, people are free to ignore what he has to say. As he said in the article that you neglected to post in full, he's all for freedom of expression and that includes the right to express things that you disagree with. You've just taken the snippet of what he said out of context so you have a reason to shake your fist and go 'Grrr Muslims! Grrr Political Correctness!'

Abusers will always look for excuses for their actions, blaming the excuse doesn't stop the abuse from happening.

Your point about security guards sounds very much like those 'share if you agree' posts on facebook that are often bull**** meant to rile up people looking for an excuse to be angry. If there is a security concern then any good security official will act regardless of a burkha or not, the law is on their side when it comes to anyone that might cry foul for Security guards following procedure.

[Brillopad]

The politician can suggest what he wants, he's not actually demanding anything of anyone, people are free to ignore what he has to say. As he said in the article that you neglected to post in full, he's all for freedom of expression and that includes the right to express things that you disagree with. You've just taken the snippet of what he said out of context so you have a reason to shake your fist and go 'Grrr Muslims! Grrr Political Correctness!'

Abusers will always look for excuses for their actions, blaming the excuse doesn't stop the abuse from happening.

Your point about security guards sounds very much like those 'share if you agree' posts on facebook that are often bull**** meant to rile up people looking for an excuse to be angry. If there is a security concern then any good security official will act regardless of a burkha or not, the law is on their side when it comes to anyone that might cry foul for Security guards following procedure.

I think every woman has a reason to shake her fist at such blatant discrimination of women on British streets in 2017. The message is obvious even if some choose to ignore it.

[DemolitionRed]

I have made it clear in previous posts that I have no issues with 'headscarves'. My issues, like many, are with full face and body coverings - niqabs and burkhas. However I don't feel that any male politician should be suggesting all Western women should wear headscarves out of solidarity for a single religion - a religion whose values many do not agree with. As a non-religious woman I don't feel any solidarity with women who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons. Why would any non-Muslim woman want to endorse such beliefs. Personally to do so would be against my own belief that religion is simply superstition. I feel his motivations are simply based on his own PC opinions.

I know such control is about personality flaws in men - the point I am making is that religion is being used by these men to 'justify' their behaviours. We know from experience that male security guards, for instance , have been reluctant to Stop and search Muslim women wearing niqabs and burkhas because of 'relgious' implications. Muslim men know the West are fearful of causing 'offence' by doing so with the obvious security implications of that.

Security being just one issue.

This simply isn't true. If a woman in a veil tries to come into this country or any European country, she is asked to remove her veil at immigration control. If she feels uncomfortable, she can remove her veil in private or just show her face to a female immigration officer. There are no exceptions... none. She is just as likely to be searched by an immigration officer as anyone else. There are always plenty of female IO's around because even Western women often object to being searched by men.

[DemolitionRed]

I have made it clear in previous posts that I have no issues with 'headscarves'. My issues, like many, are with full face and body coverings - niqabs and burkhas. However I don't feel that any male politician should be suggesting all Western women should wear headscarves out of solidarity for a single religion - a religion whose values many do not agree with. As a non-religious woman I don't feel any solidarity with women who choose to wear headscarves for religious reasons. Why would any non-Muslim woman want to endorse such beliefs. Personally to do so would be against my own belief that religion is simply superstition. I feel his motivations are simply based on his own PC opinions.

I know such control is about personality flaws in men - the point I am making is that religion is being used by these men to 'justify' their behaviours. We know from experience that male security guards, for instance , have been reluctant to Stop and search Muslim women wearing niqabs and burkhas because of 'relgious' implications. Muslim men know the West are fearful of causing 'offence' by doing so with the obvious security implications of that.

Security being just one issue.

This simply isn't true. If a woman in a veil tries to come into this country or any European country, she is asked to remove her veil at immigration control. If she feels uncomfortable, she can remove her veil in private or just show her face to a female immigration officer. There are no exceptions... none. She is just as likely to be searched by an immigration officer as anyone else. There are always plenty of female IO's around because even Western women often object to being searched by men.

Edited to add: the security issue with Muslim women is no different to anyone else who wants to step over the threshold into the UK.

[Brillopad]

This simply isn't true. If a woman in a veil tries to come into this country or any European country, she is asked to remove her veil at immigration control. If she feels uncomfortable, she can remove her veil in private or just show her face to a female immigration officer. There are no exceptions... none. She is just as likely to be searched by an immigration officer as anyone else. There are always plenty of female IO's around because even Western women often object to being searched by men.

Edited to add: the security issue with Muslim women is no different to anyone else who wants to step over the threshold into the UK.

What you said is correct but I wasn't thinking so much about airports as more everyday situations such as going into banks, schools or really any public area with criminal intentions.

There have been cases of men wearing burkhas and posing as women to commit crimes. It would also make it easier for men or women to commit terrorist acts if less likely to be challenged.

[DemolitionRed]

Have you ever been stopped and searched by your bank?
Have you ever seen anyone in a bank being stopped and searched?
If a woman wearing niqab was suspected of shop lifting she would have to wait with the security men for the police to arrive.

niqab crimes are so low they are hardly worth a mention. The latest one was a British white guy from Watford in 2015. He could just as easily of donned a biker full face helmet.

[Brillopad]

Have you ever been stopped and searched by your bank?
Have you ever seen anyone in a bank being stopped and searched?
If a woman wearing niqab was suspected of shop lifting she would have to wait with the security men for the police to arrive.

niqab crimes are so low they are hardly worth a mention. The latest one was a British white guy from Watford in 2015. He could just as easily of donned a biker full face helmet.

I think you miss the point. Full face helmets are not allowed in banks and no doubt other public places. The same should apply to burkhas - anyone could be under that contraption.

[jaxie]

Sometimes you feel you are hitting your head against a brick wall - no doubt it would be different if male equality was being challenged in this way.

Many pay lip service to believing in female equality, but talk is cheap and actions really do speak louder than words in my book.

Very true. People often say wearing such paraphernalia is the woman's choice except in reality it isn't really her choice, she does what she is conditioned to do by men. It is disturbing how so many non Muslims collude with that.

Why would any woman think her face is immodest?

[Kizzy]

Are you serious- babies don't understand prejudice, but the sight of that black, bold tent with eyes staring out of it would understandably frighten them.

Given what the wearing of them represents I would also hope that it isn't a sight most people would want our children to get used to.

Why would it only frighten western babies, do all other babies instinctively know know not to be scared?

[Livia]

I also have the freedom to wear what I want. Didn't stop a Muslim spitting at me on the Tube because I was wearing a tiny Star of David on a chain. But I'm not expecting everyone to wear a Star of David in solidarity.

[jaxie]

I also have the freedom to wear what I want. Didn't stop a Muslim spitting at me on the Tube because I was wearing a tiny Star of David on a chain. But I'm not expecting everyone to wear a Star of David in solidarity.

Really sorry to hear you had that nasty experience Liv.

[Withano]

I also have the freedom to wear what I want. Didn't stop a Muslim spitting at me on the Tube because I was wearing a tiny Star of David on a chain. But I'm not expecting everyone to wear a Star of David in solidarity.

But the compassionate lot would if it was a planned event and was a regular occurrence. Almost wonder if it would have happened at all if these solidarity events were more regular, but some people, evidently, are just opposed to any form of compassion, empathy and understanding of anybody outside of their bubble... Maybe that Austrian bloke is on to something..

[Kizzy]

I also have the freedom to wear what I want. Didn't stop a Muslim spitting at me on the Tube because I was wearing a tiny Star of David on a chain. But I'm not expecting everyone to wear a Star of David in solidarity.

He was wrong in the same way as those who harass women in headscarves then.

[Brillopad]

But the compassionate lot would if it was a planned event and was a regular occurrence. Almost wonder if it would have happened at all if these solidarity events were more regular, but some people, evidently, are just opposed to any form of compassion, empathy and understanding of anybody outside of their bubble... Maybe that Austrian bloke is on to something..

You wear one then.

[jaxie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39784721

Interesting article. "Young men as conservative as their fathers." "The majority of men, up to 90% in some places expected to control their wives' freedoms, from clothing to how often the couple had sex." "70% of women wanted to work but felt men should have the priority where work is scarce." "Yet if father's had more liberal attitudes their younger son's were more likely to as well." It's about patriarchal religious conditioning.

[Brillopad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39784721

Interesting article. "Young men as conservative as their fathers." "The majority of men, up to 90% in some places expected to control their wives' freedoms, from clothing to how often the couple had sex." "70% of women wanted to work but felt men should have the priority where work is scarce." "Yet if father's had more liberal attitudes their younger son's were more likely to as well." It's about patriarchal religious conditioning.

A very high figure for the 21st century. And so the cycle continues. An interesting article which demonstrates how things don't change because men don't want to.

These men don't want to change - they like having it all their way - It's no more complicated that that in my opinion.

They shout loudly about white mans' racism whilst at the same time practicing the worst kind of sexism - big fat hypocrites who don't care - they just want everything their way.

I could never respect such 'values' that only exist to suit men.

Then some soft touch Austrian politician has a bright spark of an idea - let's not expect such people who choose to come to our countries to integrate with us - let us integrate with them. Wow.

Who knows maybe he isn't such a soft touch - just a sexist pig sympathiser.

[Withano]

You wear one then.

:hee:

[Brillopad]

:hee:

Is there a law that says men can't do so? Put your money where your mouth is if you really believe in such 'solidarity'.

[Withano]

Is there a law that says men can't do so? Put your money where your mouth is if you really believe in such 'solidarity'.

I'm not being funny, I think it's a great idea. I remember once when there was a planned event for people to wear purple in solidarity with all the gay suicides that happened that year (can't remember which year, but it was a devastating new high, 2010ish I think). And everywhere you went that day, there were people in purple, it was kind of beautiful. Wouldn't really have the same effect if it was one guy wearing purple.. it would need to be a planned event.. and no, no law that suggests it should only be women.. from personal experience, I've seen plenty of Muslim men in Tunisia, Saudi, and Iraq wear headscarves

Men in Iran also wore headscarves in a planned event to show solidarity with their wives, which is also kinda beautiful in my opinion
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/men-in-iran-are-wearing-hijabs-in-solidarity-with-their-wives-a7160146.html

[Livia]

He was wrong in the same way as those who harass women in headscarves then.

Not he... she. In a headscarf.

[Livia]

Is there a law that says men can't do so? Put your money where your mouth is if you really believe in such 'solidarity'.

There's plenty of evidence of men wearing women's dress when they need to escape somewhere. I can think of at least three instances of that. Shhhh though... don't want to be offensive. Especially to women in a religion that are already oppressed by their own men.

[Niamh.]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one, I've read most of the posts in here and I agree with some of both sides tbh. Whilst I wouldn't like to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't wear, I do also agree that alot of this religious attire (mainly the ones that cover the face etc) are oppressive to women and so for that reason i probably wouldn't wear a head scarf or whatever as protest to something I actually think is draconian. I mean I'm not going to try and force people not to wear them either but I'm not going to support something I think is outdated, i wouldn't protest for any religious stuff really because I think the world would be a better place without religions

[Kizzy]

Not he... she. In a headscarf.

Well anyone who exhibits prejudice then, whether it was a he or a she of whichever faith.

[Livia]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one, I've read most of the posts in here and I agree with some of both sides tbh. Whilst I wouldn't like to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't wear, I do also agree that alot of this religious attire (mainly the ones that cover the face etc) are oppressive to women and so for that reason i probably wouldn't wear a head scarf or whatever as protest to something I actually think is draconian. I mean I'm not going to try and force people not to wear them either but I'm not going to support something I think is outdated, i wouldn't protest for any religious stuff really because I think the world would be a better place with religions

Obviously I'm not going to agree totally with the last bit, but on the whole... I agree with this.

[Niamh.]

Obviously I'm not going to agree totally with the last bit, but on the whole... I agree with this.

:laugh:

I know, you can't stop people believing what they want but it should be kept away from state and having any kind of impact on everyday life - work, school, laws etc

[Livia]

:laugh:

I know, you can't stop people believing what they want but it should be kept away from state and having any kind of impact on everyday life - work, school, laws etc

Oh God, I'm having an agree-fest with you today x

[Niamh.]

Oh God, I'm having an agree-fest with you today x

haha, thank god for that......pardon the pun :hehe:

[Livia]

haha, thank god for that......pardon the pun :hehe:

God doesn't mind you blaspheming. She's a very tolerent woman.

[Brillopad]

I'm not being funny, I think it's a great idea. I remember once when there was a planned event for people to wear purple in solidarity with all the gay suicides that happened that year (can't remember which year, but it was a devastating new high, 2010ish I think). And everywhere you went that day, there were people in purple, it was kind of beautiful. Wouldn't really have the same effect if it was one guy wearing purple.. it would need to be a planned event.. and no, no law that suggests it should only be women.. from personal experience, I've seen plenty of Muslim men in Tunisia, Saudi, and Iraq wear headscarves

Men in Iran also wore headscarves in a planned event to show solidarity with their wives, which is also kinda beautiful in my opinion
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/men-in-iran-are-wearing-hijabs-in-solidarity-with-their-wives-a7160146.html

That was an interesting article as well. I admire the men and women who stand up to this kind of oppression.

I doubt it had any effect though - to fight that type of injustice takes years of sustained campaigning. I hope it wasn't a one-offf and that those men and others continue to fight the good fight along with the women.

[Livia]

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/join-revolution-against-fgm-child-marriage?gclid=CP--t-ex09MCFdTNGwodEfkDqg
or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/27/boko-haram-forced-marriage-rape-torture-abuse-hrw-report
or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/isis-refugee-women-kidnap-force-convert-islam-muslim-sex-slaves-sell-libya-eirtreans-nigerians-sirte-a7670276.html
Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islamhttp://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/the-islamic-states-views-on-homosexuality I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

[Brillopad]

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/join-revolution-against-fgm-child-marriage?gclid=CP--t-ex09MCFdTNGwodEfkDqg
or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/27/boko-haram-forced-marriage-rape-torture-abuse-hrw-report
or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/isis-refugee-women-kidnap-force-convert-islam-muslim-sex-slaves-sell-libya-eirtreans-nigerians-sirte-a7670276.html
Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islamhttp://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/the-islamic-states-views-on-homosexuality I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing of any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something. Even if those forced to are in the minority, and I have my doubts about that, I think that the minorities' right not to be abused in this way in the West should take precedence over the rights of those that choose to wear them. Why don't those women care about their own I have to ask myself.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

[jaxie]

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/join-revolution-against-fgm-child-marriage?gclid=CP--t-ex09MCFdTNGwodEfkDqg
or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/27/boko-haram-forced-marriage-rape-torture-abuse-hrw-report
or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/isis-refugee-women-kidnap-force-convert-islam-muslim-sex-slaves-sell-libya-eirtreans-nigerians-sirte-a7670276.html
Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islamhttp://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/the-islamic-states-views-on-homosexuality I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

Excellent point.

[Niamh.]

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing or any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

[Brillopad]

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

[Niamh.]

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

[Kazanne]

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

[Niamh.]

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

[Northern Monkey]

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

But legally they already have the choice not to wear it:conf:

The only way to stop them being forced to wear it is to ban it.

[Niamh.]

But legally they already have the choice not to wear it:conf:

The only way to stop them being forced to wear it is to ban it.

I know that and they choose to wear it, maybe in a generation or so, women will be able to free themselves of it after living with other women in this society.

Your solution is to force them to stop wearing it, same thing as being forced to wear something.

[Northern Monkey]

I know that and they choose to wear it, maybe in a generation or so, women will be able to free themselves of it after living with other women in this society.

Your solution is to force them to stop wearing it, same thing as being forced to wear something.

I'd tell em they can wear at home,in the garden or in bed with the hubby if that's what floats their boat.Just not out in public.

[Niamh.]

I'd tell em they can wear at home,in the garden or in bed with the hubby if that's what floats their boat.Just not out in public.

The kind of defeats the purpose of the whole idea of it :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

The kind of defeats the purpose of the whole idea of it :laugh:

Idk,I've often thought about getting one for the misses for the bedroom so I don't have see her mug while I'm on the job.Real passion killer:laugh:

[Niamh.]

Idk,I've often thought about getting one for the misses for the bedroom so I don't have see her mug while I'm on the job.Real passion killer:laugh:

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum :nono:

[Northern Monkey]

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum :nono:
:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum :nono:

She has got nice eyes though:thumbs:

[Tozzie]

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

but why ASK them to. Why are muslims always mollycoddled and treat as superior people. Why is it ok for us to be offended but we must not offend them? This country bows down to Muslims enough, we go out of our way to make them happy but if we are unhappy and say something against them we get shot down.

[Marsh.]

but why ASK them to. Why are muslims always mollycoddled and treat as superior people. Why is it ok for us to be offended but we must not offend them? This country bows down to Muslims enough, we go out of our way to make them happy but if we are unhappy and say something against them we get shot down.

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

[Tozzie]

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

As I see it they are treated as superior. It wouldn't surprise me if many muslims, especially women wish that PC brigade wouldnt make such an issue of the muslim people because it is this that is causing bad feeling. I have nothing against muslim people just the fact that we must not offend muslims is thrown down our throats. We are walking on eggshells the whole time for fear of offending. Everyone at some time in their life has been offended, we just have to get over it and stop crying about it.

[Withano]

We are walking on eggshells the whole time for fear of offending.

Could have fooled me

[Tozzie]

Could have fooled me

I've just squashed a load of eggshells daring to post what I just posted!

[Brillopad]

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.

[Marsh.]

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.
Well there you are generalizing a few arseholes as a whole group of people and highlighting the problem.

I suppose all Scousers are thieves too?

[DemolitionRed]

If Muslims can't have the decency to respect the values of the country they CHOOSE to live in they deserve no respect back.

The women don't see themselves as equals apparently, and they are trying to tar the rest of us with the same brush. That is the problem. If they don't want to be equal, fine, just don't expect Western women to accept the same or prioritise their feelings.

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

[DemolitionRed]

And as for the ridiculous and repeated suggestion that we should be concentrating on those with more pressing needs. That's akin to saying, my compassion can only go so far.

I'm never sure where this idea of either/or comes from. If people feel called to stand up against GML... great! Why can’t we do both? People support overseas campaigns as well as local solutions Why must one choose one over the other?

[Brillopad]

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.

[Brillopad]

And as for the ridiculous and repeated suggestion that we should be concentrating on those with more pressing needs. That's akin to saying, my compassion can only go so far.

I'm never sure where this idea of either/or comes from. If people feel called to stand up against GML... great! Why can’t we do both? People support overseas campaigns as well as local solutions Why must one choose one over the other?

I will choose my own priorities, not yours.

[Withano]

Does anti-Semitism, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy disgust you? Do you ever consider that its attitudes like yours that leads us towards those things? Do you not understand that when you use words like “us Western women” you have to include Muslims who are Westerners in that argument.

You need to stop hyper-valuing what you believe to be your race and your values because it comes across as a horrible attitude. There’s nothing wrong with national pride as long as that national pride doesn’t lead to being myopic and de-valuing others.

:clap1:

[DemolitionRed]

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

I asked you a pertinent question based on things you keep saying. If you are offended by that, I suggest you can't handle debate.


What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I didn't say you were any of those things. You need to re-read what I actually said.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.
I know, you have said the same many times.

[DemolitionRed]

I will choose my own priorities, not yours.

Then don't join in and applaud suggestions that I should do otherwise!

[Brillopad]

I asked you a pertinent question based on things you keep saying. If you are offended by that, I suggest you can't handle debate.


I didn't say you were any of those things. You need to re-read what I actually said.

I know, you have said the same many times.

Your implications were clear, no point in back-tracking. You were not debating, just attempting to insult.

You don't agree with my opinions, I don't agree with yours - never the twain shall meet. That suits me.

[Livia]

I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are. Please stop with the name-calling an insinuations because they don't agree with your own.

What I will state, although I am not obliged to, is I am not anti-Semetic, do not believe in ethnic cleansing or endorse white supremacy - wild accusations you have no right making based on my comments.

I do however find the lack of respect for female values in this country from many Muslims rude and offensive. Shoot me.

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.

My compassion does only go so far. I am concerned about the things I posted earlier in this thread... the plight of women in Islam, the FGM, the oppression of the gay community, Islam's rabid anti-semitism. I can't shed tears over whether someone wears a headscarf or not. And if you're spending a lot of time thinking about that, then you should know that women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK.

I'll say that again. Women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK. Theresa May backs this. Don'ty try wearing a bikini in Saudi though.... but hey, that's them, right? They're allowed to oppress women.

[Brillopad]

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.

My compassion does only go so far. I am concerned about the things I posted earlier in this thread... the plight of women in Islam, the FGM, the oppression of the gay community, Islam's rabid anti-semitism. I can't shed tears over whether someone wears a headscarf or not. And if you're spending a lot of time thinking about that, then you should know that women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK.

I'll say that again. Women are free to wear a headscarf in the UK. Theresa May backs this. Don'ty try wearing a bikini in Saudi though.... but hey, that's them, right? They're allowed to oppress women.

I do. As you say it is always the same handful of people who try to undermine opposing views and shut down opinions in this way.

Believing in female equality and not being willing to simply ignore or tolerate the lack of respect of it from other cultures in the West is a right and one I will continually endorse. Respect works both ways. But for some, it is all one way and about everyone else continuously appeasing one group of people and if we are not prepared to do that then we are ..... the usual same old claptrap.

Not so much offended as bored stiff of it. Such tactics are obvious, blatant and lack insight and intelligence in my opinion. I also find it manipulative and controlling. Funny that!

[DemolitionRed]

Your implications were clear, no point in back-tracking. You were not debating, just attempting to insult.

You don't agree with my opinions, I don't agree with yours - never the twain shall meet. That suits me.

This is PC at its best.

You offend all of my moral values and regardless, I have tried to debate and reason with you, time and time again.

You insult Muslims all of the time and I find that distasteful, but when I ask you a question or suggest your words are unpleasant, you feel insulted.

You can have the last word but for me this discussion is over... at least with you.

[Niamh.]

Seriously can you all stop discussing eachother and stay on topic please?

[Withano]

Don't you get fed up with the continual bashing of anything you say from the same handful of people? I know I do.



Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own

[Niamh.]

Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own

And you all should be able to have different opinions without insulting eachother or getting personal, i really don't understand how it's so hard to just stay talking about the topic of the thread

[Livia]

Its a debate forum, Livia. And the selection of debates to choose from usually cover similar issues, so people usually fight for the same side each time. Although me and brillo did share the same side of the argument for a debate on whether the DM is appropriate for TiBB, and whether the age of consent should be lowered, and I know you and I have agreed several times before too, so its not always the case..
I don't think anybody should take it personally, I agree that it seems like there are two sides of tibb at times that continue to 'bash' each others points. But thats kind of what debate is. Users that want to take part can do so, they usually state their argument, and then oppose others. Doing this is entirely optional.
Its a shame that 80%+ of the debates cover right/left wing issues cos I think a more regular switch-up of 'teams' would be pretty cute.. but nobody makes those type of threads, probably because they dont feel passionately enough to do so.
I'm sure nobody comes on to tibb to purposely or maliciously bash somebody continuously in the debate forum - they just want to debate with an opinion that is least like their own


I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

[Tom4784]

I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

Considering there's barely any threads in SD where the phrase 'Remoaner' isn't thrown about I'd say your assessment on the fact that people who vote remain are more likely to be insulting is fairly wrong.

[Withano]

I know what it is, Withano. I knew what it was for all the years I was taking part in serious debates while you weren't here, so I hardly think I need you now to point it out. And I have to say it's got a lot worse since the referendum last year. You're either a remainer, or you're stupid. That's the gist. But most people - in or out - spent a lot of time weighing up the options and reaching their conclusions.

You can feel passionately without insinuating that others are stupid, naive, don't call a spade a spade etc. We all think differently, I'm sure there's no one on here who is a bad person, we all feel, we all are concerned for the state of things and for the plight of others. There's much too much time spent on pulling peoplke apart and not enough spent on trying to understand each other's issues and see how they fit in with yours. And I'm not speaking specifically about you.

I really enjoy, for the most part, people who have different opinions from me, How dull it would be to come here and only say "oh yes, I agree... my thoughts exactly".

I love TiBB. I wish we could all get on a bit more despite differing opinions. I am going to try very hard to ignore the baiters in future. I admire your passion even thought I don't share your views.

Alright, well dont try to act like the innocent victim through it, I know a lot of people that regularly oppose my side, including you, that have insulted me and others at times too.
I think its more of a snowball effect at times with the insults on here, starts with a small dig such as 'PC gone mad' or 'bit of a silly thing to say' and then the replies gradually get a bit more insulting as the discussion progresses - with neither party knowing where the line really is.
I cant think of a simple solution to this tbh. Stricter punishment system perhaps?

[Livia]

Alright, well dont try to act like the innocent victim through it, I know a lot of people that regularly oppose my side, including you, that have insulted me and others at times too.
I think its more of a snowball effect at times with the insults on here, starts with a small dig such as 'PC gone mad' or 'bit of a silly thing to say' and then the replies gradually get a bit more insulting as the discussion progresses - with neither party knowing where the line really is.
I cant think of a simple solution to this tbh. Stricter punishment system perhaps?

I don't think stricter punishments are in order. Especially as the system of moderation allows moderators to be quite insulting during the course of a debate, and then punish others in the same debate, with differing opinions.

I haven't knowingly insulted you Withano. I only insult when someone insults me. I'm not saying I'm a paragon of virtue... I am saying that the whole feel of S&D, which has always been a little tense, is worse now than I've ever known it. I don't know what the answer is. Try to ignore those who try to insult you while remaining within the rules? I'll try that again... but you know, some people are persistent.

[Livia]

Considering there's barely any threads in SD where the phrase 'Remoaner' isn't thrown about I'd say your assessment on the fact that people who vote remain are more likely to be insulting is fairly wrong.

I think the majority of people who may have used that word have now given up and left.

[Withano]

I don't think stricter punishments are in order. Especially as the system of moderation allows moderators to be quite insulting during the course of a debate, and then punish others in the same debate, with differing opinions.

I haven't knowingly insulted you Withano. I only insult when someone insults me. I'm not saying I'm a paragon of virtue... I am saying that the whole feel of S&D, which has always been a little tense, is worse now than I've ever known it. I don't know what the answer is. Try to ignore those who try to insult you while remaining within the rules? I'll try that again... but you know, some people are persistent.

I'm not sure if many people knowingly insult others.. It seems to me, more one-up-manship, until somebody eventually crosses the line.
I think serious debates have got more.. serious.. because of the recent **** that went on.. brexit, trump, ge17 (admittedly, I dont know where the anti-muslim rhetoric has stemmed from, was there much of this before the referendum?).. but this hasnt been a normal 12 months for Western politics..
SD might revert to normal once the backlash of ge17, brexit, and trump dies down because I cant think of many upcoming political milestones as big as these in the near future

[Livia]

I'm not sure if many people knowingly insult others.. It seems to me, more one-up-manship, until somebody eventually crosses the line.
I think serious debates have got more.. serious.. because of the recent **** that went on.. brexit, trump, ge17 (admittedly, I dont know where the anti-muslim rhetoric has stemmed from, was there much of this before the referendum?).. but this hasnt been a normal 12 months for Western politics..
SD might revert to normal once the backlash of ge17, brexit, and trump dies down because I cant think of many upcoming political milestones as big as these in the near future

You know, I really hope this place reverts to normal, as you say... whatever passed for normal around here.

Nice to talk this out with you though.

[jaxie]

I'm not sure if many people knowingly insult others.. It seems to me, more one-up-manship, until somebody eventually crosses the line.
I think serious debates have got more.. serious.. because of the recent **** that went on.. brexit, trump, ge17 (admittedly, I dont know where the anti-muslim rhetoric has stemmed from, was there much of this before the referendum?).. but this hasnt been a normal 12 months for Western politics..
SD might revert to normal once the backlash of ge17, brexit, and trump dies down because I cant think of many upcoming political milestones as big as these in the near future

You're obviously intelligent and I enjoy reading your posts for the most part though I don't always agree I do sometimes but I feel if I mentioned that you'd think I was mocking you or something. I enjoy reading most people on the forum, but there are a few I feel don't listen and just bite without really taking on board what others are saying.

I think you (and others) mistake anti religious feeling and concerns for women in religions for anti muslim rhetoric. I think the muslim religion comes up a lot because of current affairs and the current spate of terroism, and because of the whole face covering thing. As religions go, it is one of the worst for the oppression of women so that too comes up a lot. It seems to me as if there are two groups on the forum, one that are looking at the negatives of the religion and another that view those negatives as anti the people who adhere to it. It's quite complex really.

For me personally I don't believe in religion and feel it is tolerable only in so far as when it doesn't tell people how to live, how many babies to have, whether or not to mutilate their children's genitals, who else to pick on or kill, how to dress, and who to marry and at what age etc.

[Northern Monkey]

Piling huge numbers of people with an opposing ideology to our own in is dangerous,irresponsible and causes many problems.
Smashing two cultures together that have many differences is never going to be pain free.
Is this the fault of the majority of the people coming?Of course not.That is their culture.
The problems come when we are expected tolerate aspects which are in opposition to our own culture.That should not be happening.Sexism,FGM,Grooming underage girls,Sharia,covering your wife up etc etc
A gentle trickle with refugees given priority is a much fairer safer way to do things imo with an understanding that western countries do things a little differently.
There are huge numbers of people who are not refugees flocking into Europe and there needs to be a limit on the numbers.
Again you can't blame these people but you can't just say 'come on all pile in'.That is when this culture shock and clash happens and problems occur and also how politicians like Le Pen gain popularity.Even when she loses the French election(which she will) she has still won.She's won loads of new followers,support and legitimacy.
This is all the fault of the current and previous administrations.

As for this forum.I doubt anybody actually genuinely dislikes anybody.Chances are if everyone went to the pub they'd have a right laugh.