Leaked details from May's disastrous brexit dinner with Juncker

[Brother Leon]

Leaked details from May's disastrous dinner with Juncker suggest Brexit could be far worse than anyone imagines


All of the facts have been available to British journalists writing on Brexit for months. Nothing is new. But with one or two exceptions the entire UK coverage of Brexit is written entirely from a UK-UK point of view

Europe is waking up on May Day to the most devastating document published so far on Brexit. In what appears to be an almost verbatim account of the Downing Street dinner last Wednesday in which Theresa May and David Davis broke bread with Jean-Claude Juncker and Michel Barnier, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Sunday edition details the sheer astonishment of the EU negotiators at May's position.

There is a semantic dispute on whether Brussels or Berlin planted the story but since there is zero difference between Angela Merkel (or Martin Schulz) and the Juncker-Tusk-Barnier troika, it hardly matters. London political journalists who deal daily in cynically planted leaks are hardly in a position to protest at German journalists happy to publish an account that is extremely damaging to the British Prime Minister.

The details, however, are a shock. May told Juncker that Britain did not have to pay any of the UK's outstanding bills or liabilities. She insisted all negotiations should be kept secret and was surprised when Juncker said there would have to be reports to national parliaments. If the UK left the single market and the customs union Britain would have a lower status as a "third country" than Turkey, Juncker told the Prime Minister.

May was reminded that the EU is a legal construction, not a golf club, and she was told that given the length of time it took negotiating a deal with Canada or Croatia it would be years of talks to finalise an UK-UK trade agreement.
She said that the issue of EU citizens in the UK could be settled by June. It was pointed out that this involved health care, social security issues and these were national government competences. Moreover, the UK has no list of EU citizens in Britain.

She referred to the meaningless temporary opt-outs she negotiated from EU Justice and Home Affairs measures and suggested this could be a model for Brexit with the UK opting back in on a cherry-picking basis to bits of the single market she liked.

The EU team left Downing Street in a state of shock. Juncker placed a late-night call to Angela Merkel to convey his pessimism about the lack of knowledge or understanding in Downing Street about the Brexit policy of the EU27 governments - every bit as sovereign and accountable to their voters as May is in Britain.
The next day Merkel told the Bundestag that Britain suffered from "illusions" over Brexit which produced the predictable insults from anti-EU Tories and London's mono-lingual journalists writing for the offshore press.

What is surprising is that anyone is surprised. The dominant centre-right confederation of EU conservative parties, the European People's Party, published a full page advert in the current Politico setting out Brexit negotiating priorities. These include: "EU citizens will not pay the bill for the British. EU citizens will not accept British blockades. The right order of the negotiations has to be respected" and other demands.

In visits to seven EU capitals so far this year, I have heard all of these points from senior ministers and officials responsible for Brexit talks. In Berlin I was told that the German government has been asking London for months for a list of EU citizens in the UK. There has been no reply. In Warsaw I was told that Britain had to meet its financial obligations to the EU before any exit deal could be agreed. In Lisbon I was told that despite friendship with England going back to a 14th century treaty between the two countries, Lisbon now thought in terms of the EU27 and would stay loyal to its EU partners. In Paris, I was told that the frontier would move to British territory and that customs clearing centres would be set up in all French ports to control British lorries and car and that there was no question that the $120trn City money-making machine of trading and clearing euros could stay in a non-EU or EEA country.

In Dublin the deep fear is that if the UK leaves the customs' union, there would have to be border crossing checks between Northern Ireland and Ireland with cars, vans and lorries checked for any goods that had not paid duty.

In one major EU capital, the chief Foreign Ministry Brexit negotiator told me: "We know the UK ambassador sends accurate reports of our Brexit policy to London but does anyone read them?"
All of these facts have been available to British journalists writing on Brexit for months. Nothing is new. But with one or two exceptions the entire UK coverage of Brexit is written entirely from a UK-UK point of view with the routine clichés thrown in of insulting Jean-Claude Juncker.
One cannot blame Theresa May and her mono-lingual No 10 team. Not since its 1930s coverage of Germany has the majority of the British media, including the BBC, been so poor in covering the main challenge to Britain's future in half a century.
If British citizens, businesses, inward investors and even MPs are not told any of the core publicly available facts about the position all 27 EU sovereign governments are taking on Brexit then the final outcome may be far worse than anyone imagines.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jean-claude-juncker-theresa-may-brexit-negotiations-downing-street-dinner-a7711526.html


Looks like our strong and powerful leader is out of her depth.

[Brillopad]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jean-claude-juncker-theresa-may-brexit-negotiations-downing-street-dinner-a7711526.html


Looks like our strong and powerful leader is out of her depth.

Ah the very biased Independent. Think I will take that with a pinch of salt. :joker:

[Withano]

Ah the very biased Independent. Think I will take that with a pinch of salt. :joker:

"An almost verbatim account"

wouldn't overdo it, your reaction seems salty enough as it is

[reece(:]

The scandal! Jezza would never do such criminal activity

[Tom4784]

This is nothing new, a lot of the challenges of Brexit were made apparent before the vote but people brought into the lie that we don't need the EU but the EU needs us. People who voted with that mindset are in for a vicious wake up call.

I say bring it on, hopefully people will learn from the carnage to make informed decisions in future.

[smudgie]

Funny how it was reported to have gone alright.
Couldn't be fake news then could it...or has been said, gossip.:joker:

[joeysteele]

It's got her rather rattled.
She wants things kept quiet and done behind closed doors probably.
The EU may have other ideas.

She terms it gossip but often gossip contains truth.
She'd rather likely keep voters in the dark as to the way things really are going or are likely to.

[Brillopad]

This is nothing new, a lot of the challenges of Brexit were made apparent before the vote but people brought into the lie that we don't need the EU but the EU needs us. People who voted with that mindset are in for a vicious wake up call.

I say bring it on, hopefully people will learn from the carnage to make informed decisions in future.

Talk about counting your chickens. The outcome is two years' away - a lot can happen in that time.

Nothing wrong with the mindset of those that voted out. Time will tell about your predicted wake-up call - having to eat one's words is never very appetising. :laugh:

[user104658]

Talk about counting your chickens. The outcome is two years' away - a lot can happen in that time.

Nothing wrong with the mindset of those that voted out. Time will tell about your predicted wake-up call - having to eat one's words is never very appetising. [emoji23]
http://new1.fjcdn.com/comments/Theycallmesatan+used+roll+picture+theycallmesatan+ rolled+image+_c448b06b815fbf649cd13dcc2930c8ec.jpg

[arista]

https://d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/PqmWhRefTWCWHjwDCOCM_guard.PNG

[Tom4784]

Talk about counting your chickens. The outcome is two years' away - a lot can happen in that time.

Nothing wrong with the mindset of those that voted out. Time will tell about your predicted wake-up call - having to eat one's words is never very appetising. :laugh:

Be careful, you don't want to get sand in your ears.

[Brother Leon]

Funny how it was reported to have gone alright.
Couldn't be fake news then could it...or has been said, gossip.:joker:


Why do you think she went back on her word and what she's being saying all along and suddenly called a snap election? She's deserpate for any form of leverage as she's obviously struggling with negotiations. Not hard to read between the lines here..

[Scarlett.]

This is nothing new, a lot of the challenges of Brexit were made apparent before the vote but people brought into the lie that we don't need the EU but the EU needs us. People who voted with that mindset are in for a vicious wake up call.

I say bring it on, hopefully people will learn from the carnage to make informed decisions in future.

I wouldn't count on people learning lessons from it they'll just find a scapegoat and pass the blame onto something else, couldn't possibly be that they voted against the country's interests.

[jaxie]

Oh look the EU are playing political games in the press. What a shock.

[Brillopad]

Hark at all the clairvoyants on here who think they can predict the future this early in the game. All these wise souls who think they are so much better informed they anyone else. There is a Long way to go yet - a lot can and will happen. Jumping on one newspaper article as though it's words are a foregone conclusion is utter hysterical nonsence. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion, just another good dose of wishful thinking and scare tactics. The remoaners repeating their never ending words of woe at every opportunity! It is a desperate attempt to unnerve those hovering and to 'encourage' them to change their vote if and when there is a referendum on the terms of the deal. Constant scare tactics from scared and angry people

Did anyone really expect it was going to be easy, that the EU were going to just roll over. They don't want Brexit and are going to do everything they can to make it difficult. They are throwing a strop and stamping their feet in protest - as was expected.

Most predictions by those doom and gloom merchants of an immediate negative effect of our economy did not materialise and our economy is still strong. I for one am not going to buy into all this negative hype from those with a clear agenda. To do so would be foolish at this stage and playing into the hands of the Remoaners. Like the rest of us you remoaners are amateurs not economists and your opinions are no more knowledgable or better informed.

Opinions, however dressed up, are opinions, nothing more.

[Kizzy]

Hark at all the clairvoyants on here who think they can predict the future this early in the game. All these wise souls who think they are so much better informed they anyone else. There is a Long way to go yet - a lot can and will happen. Jumping on one newspaper article as though it's words are a foregone conclusion is utter hysterical nonsence. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion, just another good dose of wishful thinking and scare tactics. The remoaners repeating their never ending words of woe at every opportunity! It is a desperate attempt to unnerve those hovering and to 'encourage' them to change their vote if and when there is a referendum on the terms of the deal. Constant scare tactics from scared and angry people

Did anyone really expect it was going to be easy, that the EU were going to just roll over. They don't want Brexit and are going to do everything they can to make it difficult. They are throwing a strop and stamping their feet in protest - as was expected.

Most predictions by those doom and gloom merchants of an immediate negative effect of our economy did not materialise and our economy is still strong. I for one am not going to buy into all this negative hype from those with a clear agenda. To do so would be foolish at this stage and playing into the hands of the Remoaners. Like the rest of us you remoaners are amateurs not economists and your opinions are no more knowledgable or better informed.

Opinions, however dressed up, are opinions, nothing more.

And what makes you so optimistic, what have you heard that is so encouraging?...Or is it just your blind faith in this warmongering, corrupt shambolic govt?

[joeysteele]

I wouldn't count on people learning lessons from it they'll just find a scapegoat and pass the blame onto something else, couldn't possibly be that they voted against the country's interests.

I'd say you are absolutely right in all you say in your post.

[Northern Monkey]

A one sided propaganda story from a left wing remain UK rag quoting or paraphrasing from an EU rag :laugh2:

Using words like "disastrous" and "devastating":eek: :laugh:

Disastrous and devastating for the people who read the Indy and Guardian.Remainers who want either soft Brexit or no Brexit.

Talk about project fear.No wonder a section of remainers are all paranoid and anxiety filled reading stuff like that.

It basically told us absolutely nothing.It's straight up scaremongering.
It told us that the EU are going in with their starting position and so are we.It's in both sides interest to give and take and meet in the middle somewhere and both sides know this.It will be "devastating" or "disastrous" for the EU if we just tell them to feck off and leave.They want a good deal with us as much as we do.

[DemolitionRed]

This report was clearly leaked for a reason but its still a concern. Regardless of how we voted, we need to get to the bare bones of what’s going on.

What’s clear in May's general election campaign is, her promises are misguided and she’s a stubborn woman with little compromise. The claims she’s making in both her election campaign and Brexit are being heavily criticised by independent experts.

This is a PM who refuses debate with anyone who opposes her. At PM question time she’s seen to be contemptuous and show destain towards anyone who questions her and I think that’s a worry because it makes this report more believable.

Is the woman who isn’t willing to compromise the right person to take us forward with Brexit and is she being poorly briefed?

Lets try and look beyond "your side" "my side" squabbling because this sort of unhealthy competition just goes round in circles and gets us nowhere. We, regardless of where we sit with Brexit, want the best outcome possible and so questioning this report and questioning her capabilities is crucial, even if you are a Tory supporter.

[Northern Monkey]

This report was clearly leaked for a reason but its still a concern. Regardless of how we voted, we need to get to the bare bones of what’s going on.

What’s clear in May's general election campaign is, her promises are misguided and she’s a stubborn woman with little compromise. The claims she’s making in both her election campaign and Brexit are being heavily criticised by independent experts.

This is a PM who refuses debate with anyone who opposes her. At PM question time she’s seen to be contemptuous and show destain towards anyone who questions her and I think that’s a worry because it makes this report more believable.

Is the woman who isn’t willing to compromise the right person to take us forward with Brexit and is she being poorly briefed?

Lets try and look beyond "your side" "my side" squabbling because this sort of unhealthy competition just goes round in circles and gets us nowhere. We, regardless of where we sit with Brexit, want the best outcome possible and so questioning this report and questioning her capabilities is crucial, even if you are a Tory supporter.The thing is.....
Who would be a good leader to go into the Brexit negotiations?
Corbyn?
Farron?

As much as i don't like the Tories.Who else is there?
It needs to be someone strong and stable who can take a strong hand into the negotiations.Who can offer that from the three main parties?

Tbh i'd rather have farage go in there than any of them.

[Brillopad]

The thing is.....
Who would be a good leader to go into the Brexit negotiations?
Corbyn?
Farron?

As much as i don't like the Tories.Who else is there?
It needs to be someone strong and stable who can take a strong hand into the negotiations.Who can offer that from the three main parties?

Tbh i'd rather have farage go in there than any of them.

Farage for me too. He is a great orator and not easily phased or intimidated. A confident and capable man.

[Niamh.]

Farage for me too. He is a great orator and not easily phased or intimidated. A confident and capable man.

he comes across as arrogant and not very diplomatic to me. He's not very likeable. Doesn't seem like a good choice for someone who's trying to arrange a deal with the EU, especially after the way he carried on after the result of the vote but it's nothing to do with me :laugh:

[user104658]

Farage mocks and is despised by European politicians - and Brexiteers think he's the man to handle the sensitive diplomacy of setting up trade deals with those same people. ****ing bizarre. But fairly typical of the "we are big and tough and have the upper hand tee hee silly little Europe!" attitude that in fests Brexit mentality, I guess.

[Niamh.]

Farage mocks and is despised by European politicians - and Brexiteers think he's the man to handle the sensitive diplomacy of setting up trade deals with those same people. ****ing bizarre. But fairly typical of the "we are big and tough and have the upper hand tee hee silly little Europe!" attitude that in fests Brexit mentality, I guess.

Well that's it really, if you do actually want to work with Europe and come to an agreement and get a good deal then 100% he's the wrong man for the job. If you want to go there and say "**** you Europe, you give us what ever we want or piss off, Rule Britannia" then I'm sure Farage would be perfect :laugh:

[smudgie]

Well that's it really, if you do actually want to work with Europe and come to an agreement and get a good deal then 100% he's the wrong man for the job. If you want to go there and say "**** you Europe, you give us what ever we want or piss off, Rule Britannia" then I'm sure Farage would be perfect :laugh:

I have to agree.
He is the last person we need to do any negotiating, you need respect on both sides, I am afraid where he is concerned there is no love lost, never mind any respect.

[Brillopad]

he comes across as arrogant and not very diplomatic to me. He's not very likeable. Doesn't seem like a good choice for someone who's trying to arrange a deal with the EU, especially after the way he carried on after the result of the vote but it's nothing to do with me :laugh:

Personally I like him. OK maybe not the man for this job, but I was referring more to his abilities to negotiate deals and his oratory skills rather than this particular deal. Shame though, I think he would be ideal in many ways.

[Niamh.]

Personally I like him. OK maybe not the man for this job, but I was referring more to his abilities to negotiate deals and his oratory skills rather than this particular deal. Shame though, I think he would be ideal in many ways.

I think there's too much emotion invested in this for him, he already got everyones backs up in Europe with the gloating when Brexit was voted through, you do need someone who can be more diplomatic on this issue. I mean like I said it's nothing to do with me really but at the same time, we more than any other country will want you lot to get a good deal because we're so close to you and so far away from mainland Europe and you are our biggest trading partners. Also, of course because of Northern Ireland, it's all well and good our taoiseach getting a clause in saying if Northern Ireland vote to rejoin the republic then they can becomes members again but that's a hypothetical situation that may never happen, it would have been more helpful for him to talk about what kind of a deal right now we can have with the North imo

[Livia]

They're quoting from a German newspaper. Germany goes to the polls in the Autumn (after which Merkel is going to be looking for a new job, I reckon). They're hardly going to make it look like the UK will have an easy time. But then... we are an independent country, the people voted it so, so there's not much they can do. If they don't want to trade with us it will harm their imports and exports just as much as it'll hard ours. I predict lots of dummy-spitting in the months to come.

[Northern Monkey]

We need Farage to go in there with union jack boxers on and just pull his trousers down in front of Barnier and say 'chew on that ya bastards' and then walk out.That will set the tone for our starting position i feel.

[Livia]

LOL... Monkey, when I take over the country, I'm making you head of the Diplomatic Corps.

[Northern Monkey]

LOL... Monkey, when I take over the country, I'm making you head of the Diplomatic Corps.

:laugh:

I accept

[DemolitionRed]

The thing is.....
Who would be a good leader to go into the Brexit negotiations?
Corbyn?
Farron?

As much as i don't like the Tories.Who else is there?
It needs to be someone strong and stable who can take a strong hand into the negotiations.Who can offer that from the three main parties?

Tbh i'd rather have farage go in there than any of them.

Someone who can admit when they get things wrong.

We need a more genuine politics and if that means standing up to the hard right of their own party as well as the tabloid media who’s experience has already taught us that they will never be satisfied with anything that compromises their own ideological fixations.

Instead of a general election, it would have been more honest for the government to admit that they had got things wrong and that they now want to work on and communicate a more realistic expectation to the public, as well as give business, organizations and individuals more warning of the need to prepare for what’s coming next.

The government is trying to sell us a plan that has already started to fall apart at the seams.

[DemolitionRed]

Farage for me too. He is a great orator and not easily phased or intimidated. A confident and capable man.

But he's far right and far right policies may help you but they won't help businesses and industries

[Brillopad]

Someone who can admit when they get things wrong.

We need a more genuine politics and if that means standing up to the hard right of their own party as well as the tabloid media who’s experience has already taught us that they will never be satisfied with anything that compromises their own ideological fixations.

Instead of a general election, it would have been more honest for the government to admit that they had got things wrong and that they now want to work on and communicate a more realistic expectation to the public, as well as give business, organizations and individuals more warning of the need to prepare for what’s coming next.

The government is trying to sell us a plan that has already started to fall apart at the seams.

Neither should they give in to the hard left of their own party. It works both ways. Both extremes are equally distasteful.

[DemolitionRed]

It's got her rather rattled.
She wants things kept quiet and done behind closed doors probably.
The EU may have other ideas.

She terms it gossip but often gossip contains truth.
She'd rather likely keep voters in the dark as to the way things really are going or are likely to.

This rhetoric that May has borrowed from the likes of the Daily Mail and the Daily Express, that seems to marginalise and demonise any form of opposition; makes it somehow no longer legitimate to question the government. To criticise the government is paramount to putting national interest in danger!!

This argument that May needs a strong mandate and needs it fast is unconvincing. Its tantamount to claiming that so long as we are engaged in international negotiations we should never change the government. For global Britain who will be in international negotiations forever, she may as well be saying, “this country needs a one party state”

This political messiah complex is anything but British.

[Brillopad]

But he's far right and far right policies may help you but they won't help businesses and industries

Why do the left never refer to the right as right but always far right? Not an attempt to undermine I wonder.

[DemolitionRed]

Talk about counting your chickens. The outcome is two years' away - a lot can happen in that time.

More like turkeys voting for Christmas!

The contradiction in the timing is potentially catastrophic because the governments flawed analysis that we can leave the EU without any proper negotiations for future trade in place leaves us with no credible negotiation strategy.

Nothing wrong with the mindset of those that voted out. Time will tell about your predicted wake-up call - having to eat one's words is never very appetising. :laugh:

I voted out but I'm aware that the leave victory was a narrow one and there is no evidence to suggest that the many leave voters were in favour of such an extreme outcome. The leave campaigners explicitly promised that withdrawal from the EU wouldn’t include leaving the single market and the customs union.

Its obvious that a large proportion of the country don’t support government plans.

[DemolitionRed]

Neither should they give in to the hard left of their own party. It works both ways. Both extremes are equally distasteful.

SCREAMS

Its not about giving in to the hard left, its about listening to different options, including options from their own party. Like I've already said, If the government had listened a little more and a little better, it might not be making the fundamental mistakes it has.

[DemolitionRed]

Why do the left never refer to the right as right but always far right? Not an attempt to undermine I wonder.

Because in every political party we have different degrees of "right" and "left". Do you believe all the Tory party are in agreement with a hard Brexit?

[Northern Monkey]

This all comes down to semantics on where each side wants to begin negotiating really.
The EU wants to settle citizens rights(which the Cons do also) and this so called 'divorce bill' first wheras the government are saying "there's no deal until we agree the whole deal".
When they actually get down to negotiating then no doubt progress will be made.

[DemolitionRed]

This all comes down to semantics on where each side wants to begin negotiating really.
The EU wants to settle citizens rights(which the Cons do also) and this so called 'divorce bill' first wheras the government are saying "there's no deal until we agree the whole deal".
When they actually get down to negotiating then no doubt progress will be made.

But can all this be done in such a short time? We've taken a year to get this far!

[DemolitionRed]

Brexit plans are plagued with problems but the fundamental issues are with the de-structure of the UK demands and EU’s understanding, specifically when it comes to timing of all these complexities. The EU’s clear and persistent position is that we first sort out the mechanics of withdrawal and then we will start preliminary discussions about the future.

[Brillopad]

More like turkeys voting for Christmas!




I voted out but I'm aware that the leave victory was a narrow one and there is no evidence to suggest that the many leave voters were in favour of such an extreme outcome. The leave campaigners explicitly promised that withdrawal from the EU wouldn’t include leaving the single market and the customs union.

Its obvious that a large proportion of the country don’t support government plans.

There is also no evidence to suggest they weren't or that they would be particularly phased by it either. I believe that most voted for in or out - that was it. All the talk about the single market, hard brexit, soft brexit came later.

I think some people like to think they more knowledgeable/intelligent than the majority of voters and particularly like to label those that voted out as gullible, stupid etc. This of course is not true, just intimidation tactics and agendas. Remoaners, devious lot that they are, preyed on the financial insecurities of the lower earners and unemployed in attempt to get them to change their votes. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

Maybe many people wanted out even if it might be a difficult ride. Things can't get much worse in this country in many ways.

.

[DemolitionRed]

We keep being told that we are "coming together" so why does it feel like we’ve never been so bitterly divided?

I'm on a rant and I'm also on my lunch break, so I'm off.

[Brillopad]

SCREAMS

Its not about giving in to the hard left, its about listening to different options, including options from their own party. Like I've already said, If the government had listened a little more and a little better, it might not be making the fundamental mistakes it has.


They listened to an unexpected majority vote - to leave. That is what they are doing and that is what the remainers can't stomach.

[DemolitionRed]

There is also no evidence to suggest they weren't or that they would be particularly phased by it either. I believe that most voted for in or out - that was it. All the talk about the single market, hard brexit, soft brexit came later.

I think some people like to think they more knowledgeable/intelligent than the majority of voters and particularly like to label those that voted out as gullible, stupid etc. This of course is not true, just intimidation tactics and agendas. Remoaners, devious lot that they are, preyed on the financial insecurities of the lower earners and unemployed in attempt to get them to change their votes. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

Maybe many people wanted out even if it might be a difficult ride. Things can't get much worse in this country in many ways.

.

Keep it at base level Brillo. It keeps the debate circles turning. :hee:

[Brillopad]

Because in every political party we have different degrees of "right" and "left". Do you believe all the Tory party are in agreement with a hard Brexit?

I'd have to live on Mars to believe that now wouldn't I. Don't be so patronising.

You just keep putting too much emphasis on the 'far-right'. Not everyone, probably not most, who wants out or didn't support open borders or who lacks any respect for the far left are far right.

[Northern Monkey]

The leave campaigners explicitly promised that withdrawal from the EU wouldn’t include leaving the single market and the customs union

No.

Infact even remainers said that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

7CFOzkWj_P4

[Kizzy]

Why do the left never refer to the right as right but always far right? Not an attempt to undermine I wonder.

Due to the nature of their proposals maybe? What have the left suggested that could be described as far left?

[Tom4784]

Hark at all the clairvoyants on here who think they can predict the future this early in the game. All these wise souls who think they are so much better informed they anyone else. There is a Long way to go yet - a lot can and will happen. Jumping on one newspaper article as though it's words are a foregone conclusion is utter hysterical nonsence. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion, just another good dose of wishful thinking and scare tactics. The remoaners repeating their never ending words of woe at every opportunity! It is a desperate attempt to unnerve those hovering and to 'encourage' them to change their vote if and when there is a referendum on the terms of the deal. Constant scare tactics from scared and angry people

Did anyone really expect it was going to be easy, that the EU were going to just roll over. They don't want Brexit and are going to do everything they can to make it difficult. They are throwing a strop and stamping their feet in protest - as was expected.

Most predictions by those doom and gloom merchants of an immediate negative effect of our economy did not materialise and our economy is still strong. I for one am not going to buy into all this negative hype from those with a clear agenda. To do so would be foolish at this stage and playing into the hands of the Remoaners. Like the rest of us you remoaners are amateurs not economists and your opinions are no more knowledgable or better informed.

Opinions, however dressed up, are opinions, nothing more.

If you believe ignorance is bliss then feel free to stick your head in the sand but don't disparage others for accepting the reality of the situation.

[Tom4784]

Also Farage would be the worst ****ing person to head up negotiations. He is an abrasive twat who washed his hands of Brexit as soon as the vote went his way so that he could find himself a permanent position in Donald Trump's arsehole. Nigel Farage is only interested in Nigel Farage and he only picks his causes based on how it'll benefit him. Getting involved in Brexit now won't benefit him which is why he went to the US as soon as he could to get in with Trump.

You need someone who is agreeable and is actually capable of diplomacy, we need a deal more than the EU needs one so we can't go into negotiations with the typical Leaver attitude of 'We don't need the EU. we don't need anyone! RULE BRITANNIA! COUNTRIES SHOULD BE LINING UP TO BEG US FOR DEALS!'

[Cherie]

No.

Infact even remainers said that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

7CFOzkWj_P4

Correct there was no confirmation of what would happen to the single market until very recently, it was one of the questions that couldnt be answered until a decision was made on soft/hard Brexit

[jaxie]

I like the more classy way that the government has handled this situation by saying they won't get into a tittle tattle war. It shows just how petty the EU and Juncker particularly is. Best thing we will ever do, leaving the EU.

I like the PM's tone today too. "I am a bloody difficult woman."

[Kizzy]

Yeah name calling is really classy :/

[joeysteele]

I didn't think it was possible but for a Prime Minister I have found Mrs May's attitude the last 2 days pathetic.

Her tone and her Party following the EU vote has been near always uncompromising.
Yet she is admired for it, really a very sad state of affairs in my view.

[Brother Leon]

Love how this is propaganda yet when Corbyn has several hatchet jobs all over the media it is radio silence...

Simple fact is May and the rest of the Brexit team still to this day have no genuine clue how they are going about obtaining Brexit and what the actual results will be. A bloody difficult woman in control of these negotiations would not have made a u-turn and called a sudden election.

[Brillopad]

Love how this is propaganda yet when Corbyn has several hatchet jobs all over the media it is radio silence...

Simple fact is May and the rest of the Brexit team still to this day have no genuine clue how they are going about obtaining Brexit and what the actual results will be. A bloody difficult woman in control of these negotiations would not have made a u-turn and called a sudden election.

I would hope a bloody difficult woman is also intelligent enough to know that to do something that is in her best interests, as well as Brexit, is the best way forward even if a u-turn is required. Pride comes before a fall.

[Livia]

Let's face it, the remainers are praying for the talks to be a failure just so they can do a "told ya so". Well, Europeans still want to buiy and sell us stuff, and if the unelected block that, there'll be trouble. People aren't as stupid as some people would have us believe.

[Kizzy]

Let's face it, the remainers are praying for the talks to be a failure just so they can do a "told ya so". Well, Europeans still want to buiy and sell us stuff, and if the unelected block that, there'll be trouble. People aren't as stupid as some people would have us believe.

What a silly thing to say, that those who voted remain are rubbing their hands together in the hope that more people will be facing hardship in this country?.... get a grip.

I personally was worried about issues such as this...

People in Britain risk losing their “fundamental right to health” after Brexit, a barrister and public health professor have warned.

Tobacco and alcohol companies could win more easily in court cases such as the recent battle over plain cigarette packaging if the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is abandoned, they wrote in the British Medical Journal (BMJ).

This means after Brexit, industry could have greater influence over laws regarding “pesticide residues in food, health and safety at work, management and disposal of hazardous substances, regulation of medicinal products, and air and water quality.”

Hopefully this will be addressed in full and resolved to protect us all when we do brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-latest-news-repeal-law-public-health-threat-warning-fundamental-right-eu-charter-uk-law-white-a7714081.html

[Livia]

What a silly thing to say, that those who voted remain are rubbing their hands together in the hope that more people will be facing hardship in this country?.... get a grip.

I personally was worried about issues such as this...

People in Britain risk losing their “fundamental right to health” after Brexit, a barrister and public health professor have warned.

Tobacco and alcohol companies could win more easily in court cases such as the recent battle over plain cigarette packaging if the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights is abandoned, they wrote in the British Medical Journal (BMJ).

This means after Brexit, industry could have greater influence over laws regarding “pesticide residues in food, health and safety at work, management and disposal of hazardous substances, regulation of medicinal products, and air and water quality.”

Hopefully this will be addressed in full and resolved to protect us all when we do brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-latest-news-repeal-law-public-health-threat-warning-fundamental-right-eu-charter-uk-law-white-a7714081.html

I was going to reply but the emboldened bits completely voided any opinion you had.

[jaxie]

Let's face it, the remainers are praying for the talks to be a failure just so they can do a "told ya so". Well, Europeans still want to buiy and sell us stuff, and if the unelected block that, there'll be trouble. People aren't as stupid as some people would have us believe.

I love how clearly you interpret the situation and tone of discussions.

[DemolitionRed]

No.

Infact even remainers said that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market.

7CFOzkWj_P4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"
Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the single Market"
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing"
Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

[jaxie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"
Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the single Market"
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

"Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing"
Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

I'll say again. We voted to leave the EU. The single market is part of the EU. Therefore we voted to leave the single market. That doesn't mean we can't have a new deal but people have to let go of trying to cling to bits of the EU.

[Tom4784]

I was going to reply but the emboldened bits completely voided any opinion you had.

If you can't come up with a solid counter argument then it's more dignified to simply admit that's the case. Reaching for reasons to invalidate opinions you dislike isn't good for discussion.

[Brillopad]

If you can't come up with a solid counter argument then it's more dignified to simply admit that's the case. Reaching for reasons to invalidate opinions you dislike isn't good for discussion.

I didn't see any reaching, just a valid point.

[DemolitionRed]

I didn't think it was possible but for a Prime Minister I have found Mrs May's attitude the last 2 days pathetic.

Her tone and her Party following the EU vote has been near always uncompromising.
Yet she is admired for it, really a very sad state of affairs in my view.

You're right, she's an uncompromising woman who surrounds herself with a hand full of agreeable glove puppets. As for being honest and dependable," she's anything but.

She's admired because she can talk the talk. Can she walk the walk though? Good speakers will always do well in parliament but being a good speaker doesn't equate to being a good PM.

We only have to look at her seven years as Home Secretary to see she did remarkably little for the Home Office. Whilst Cameron was boasting about getting tough on immigration (She's doing the same now) May was slashing the size of our Border Force, leaving fewer means to effectively police our borders. She's just like Cameron, she's all bluff.

[Livia]

If you can't come up with a solid counter argument then it's more dignified to simply admit that's the case. Reaching for reasons to invalidate opinions you dislike isn't good for discussion.

Are you telling me that in your official capacity as a Moderator? Because I thought that insulting other FMs was a rule break. I don't debate with people who can't discuss without name calling because I don't waste my time on time wasters.

[Tom4784]

Are you telling me that in your official capacity as a Moderator? Because I thought that insulting other FMs was a rule break. I don't debate with people who can't discuss without name calling because I don't waste my time on time wasters.

Except you do that all the time, Livia.

[Tom4784]

I didn't see any reaching, just a valid point.

What point? She didn't make one.

[Brillopad]

What point? She didn't make one.

She did.

[Tom4784]

She did.

I was going to reply but the emboldened bits completely voided any opinion you had.

She dodged the discussion.

[Brillopad]

She dodged the discussion.

She gave a valid reason for not wanting to pursue the discussion. Experience no doubt made her feel it wasn't worth the bother. That's certainly how I often feel, no doubt others as well.

[Kizzy]

I was going to reply but the emboldened bits completely voided any opinion you had.

It didn't void my opinion... That remains pretty much as it was. It voided your reply as well, there isn't one :/ it's basically just you informing me you are not replying.

So thanks for that.

[jaxie]

Except you do that all the time, Livia.

I've never seen Livia call other forum users names. That's what you do. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

I've never seen Livia call other forum users names. That's what you do. :shrug:

'I know you are but what am I?' basically.

[user104658]

I'll say again. We voted to leave the EU. The single market is part of the EU. Therefore we voted to leave the single market. That doesn't mean we can't have a new deal but people have to let go of trying to cling to bits of the EU.
Except that there ARE non EU members in the single market already. You talk like they're one thing. They're not.

[joeysteele]

Except that there ARE non EU members in the single market already. You talk like they're one thing. They're not.

Well pointed out TS.

[jaxie]

Except that there ARE non EU members in the single market already. You talk like they're one thing. They're not.

Not exactly so TS. There are people who have various different agreements that allow them access to the single market, freedom of movement being one of them.

[user104658]

Not exactly so TS. There are people who have various different agreements that allow them access to the single market, freedom of movement being one of them.
It is exactly so. They aren't EU members. Yes, there are caveats when it comes to single market membership, but it has nothing to do with full membership, and is not what was voted on in the referendum. To say that it's a flat "no" you have to make the assumption that everyone who voted for Brexit did so because they wanted an end to free movement. I'm sure many did, but not all. And the figures and percentages simply aren't available. We can "Brexit" and keep free movement without it being in violation of the referendum result in any way.

[DemolitionRed]

I voted out but now I feel like the fat lady who fell for the spiel on how a herbal drink would make me thin! I’m far from alone; the Economist has shown research which revealed a massive turn in Brexit retreats from people who are outraged by the false promises made in the Brexit campaign.

I always laughed at the ridiculous promises about cutting immigration. That asylum seekers would be returned to their country and border control would be letting less migrants in and so I wasn’t surprised when that showed up pretty quickly after the vote as the unicorn it always was.

I did though, believe their implicit promises about the NHS. I believed Boris Johnson when he very clearly told us that we would retain access to the single market and our public services could only survive under Brexit and I believed the secretary of State for international trade when he told us all that we would trade freely with the EU.

We are now being told that all these figures were merely extrapolation and all these campaign promises were nothing more than a series of possibilities.

I have buyers remorse and if you care to read articles in ‘The Economist,’ I’m certainly not alone. There has been a massive move over to remain since this unicorn was revealed to be nothing more than a pit pony.

I believe the percentage of remain voters now far outweigh the Brexiteers. I also believe that many of those who regret, won't have the balls to say so, but that's good because it gives the Conservatives a false illusion. When it comes to the election, there's is bound to be a lot of tactical voting because the regretters won't be voting for the blues.

[DemolitionRed]

You have to ask yourself why Farage resigned and Boris walked away with his tail between his legs after the Brexit vote. How could such staunch campaigners walk away from the masses so quickly after the results?

Did Farage never really believe we'd be exiting the EU. If so, then his sudden resignation makes sense. If he had lost the vote by a small margin, he was bound to gain a lot of seats at the next election because many voting to leave would still have belief in his capabilities. When the exit results were unveiled, Farage knew he couldn't deliver and so threw in the towel, leaving others to pick up the upheaval.

Did Boris want to undermine Cameron. Was he ensuring his status in the British government? perhaps he'd taken a bet in the Bullingdon Club.

[Livia]

Corbyn's performance, on the other hand, wasn't exactly stellar... but let's gloss over that.

[Kizzy]

I have a feeling Corbyns fault is the new Jims fault .. :joker:

[Brillopad]

I voted out but now I feel like the fat lady who fell for the spiel on how a herbal drink would make me thin! I’m far from alone; the Economist has shown research which revealed a massive turn in Brexit retreats from people who are outraged by the false promises made in the Brexit campaign.

I always laughed at the ridiculous promises about cutting immigration. That asylum seekers would be returned to their country and border control would be letting less migrants in and so I wasn’t surprised when that showed up pretty quickly after the vote as the unicorn it always was.

I did though, believe their implicit promises about the NHS. I believed Boris Johnson when he very clearly told us that we would retain access to the single market and our public services could only survive under Brexit and I believed the secretary of State for international trade when he told us all that we would trade freely with the EU.

We are now being told that all these figures were merely extrapolation and all these campaign promises were nothing more than a series of possibilities.

I have buyers remorse and if you care to read articles in ‘The Economist,’ I’m certainly not alone. There has been a massive move over to remain since this unicorn was revealed to be nothing more than a pit pony.

I believe the percentage of remain voters now far outweigh the Brexiteers. I also believe that many of those who regret, won't have the balls to say so, but that's good because it gives the Conservatives a false illusion. When it comes to the election, there's is bound to be a lot of tactical voting because the regretters won't be voting for the blues.

There are also many from the remain camp who would now vote leave.

Again a lot of what is said is 'protest' - talk is cheap - but once the chips are down we have come this far and I think most will want to continue. We don't have much to go back to after all.

Those that want out so soon are weak and scared. It takes some balls to stick to your guns when there are peaks and troughs, but I think most of those that voted out have those balls.

[Northern Monkey]

It's a good job Labour aren't going to be handling Brexit negotiations.I have just witnessed a Labour MP on national television trying to press David Davis into telling us all and the EU negotiaters the minimum amount he's willing pay for this so called "divorce bill".
Is she off her rocker?How would that help the country in any way?

[Northern Monkey]

You have to ask yourself why Farage resigned and Boris walked away with his tail between his legs after the Brexit vote. How could such staunch campaigners walk away from the masses so quickly after the results?

Did Farage never really believe we'd be exiting the EU. If so, then his sudden resignation makes sense. If he had lost the vote by a small margin, he was bound to gain a lot of seats at the next election because many voting to leave would still have belief in his capabilities. When the exit results were unveiled, Farage knew he couldn't deliver and so threw in the towel, leaving others to pick up the upheaval.

Did Boris want to undermine Cameron. Was he ensuring his status in the British government? perhaps he'd taken a bet in the Bullingdon Club.But....Farage is not in government and never will be.It's not his job to deliver.He can't do anything.
I agree with you on Boris.Pure tactics all the way.Infact didn't it come out that he'd written two Brexit articles?One pro EU and one anti?

[user104658]

There are also many from the remain camp who would now vote leave.

:joker: Ok.

[Brillopad]

It's a good job Labour aren't going to be handling Brexit negotiations.I have just witnessed a Labour MP on national television trying to press David Davis into telling us all and the EU negotiaters the minimum amount he's willing pay for this so called "divorce bill".
Is she off her rocker?How would that help the country in any way?

Clearly she has no understanding of the strategy of keeping your cards close to your chest. Silly woman.

[user104658]

Clearly she has no understanding of the strategy of keeping your cards close to your chest. Silly woman.
It is all a game, after all.

[Brillopad]

It is all a game, after all.

Unfortunately in many ways it is, for the EU at least - and a pretty nasty one at that.

[user104658]

Unfortunately in many ways it is, for the EU at least - and a pretty nasty one at that.
For all politics always, but that doesn't mean we should simply accept or encourage it in our own leaders . Perhaps have "the balls" to strive for something better?

[jaxie]

For all politics always, but that doesn't mean we should simply accept or encourage it in our own leaders . Perhaps have "the balls" to strive for something better?

We are striving for something better. Hence Brexit.

[jaxie]

You have to ask yourself why Farage resigned and Boris walked away with his tail between his legs after the Brexit vote. How could such staunch campaigners walk away from the masses so quickly after the results?

Did Farage never really believe we'd be exiting the EU. If so, then his sudden resignation makes sense. If he had lost the vote by a small margin, he was bound to gain a lot of seats at the next election because many voting to leave would still have belief in his capabilities. When the exit results were unveiled, Farage knew he couldn't deliver and so threw in the towel, leaving others to pick up the upheaval.

Did Boris want to undermine Cameron. Was he ensuring his status in the British government? perhaps he'd taken a bet in the Bullingdon Club.

Boris was stabbed in the back by Gove and didn't have enough votes to stand. I was not influenced by the leave campaign, having already made up my mind on the EU. Whether Boris vision and promises would have held true or not is something we will never know because someone else got the job and she wasn't one of those campaigning for leave so it's an entirely different perspective. I find it strange that people seem to try to hold the current administration responsible for things suggested by others. :shrug: Farage has never had the power nor position to make any kind of promises so if he did and anyone believed that was going to happen was foolish on their part.

[Brillopad]

We are striving for something better. Hence Brexit.

My thoughts exactly!

[user104658]

We are striving for something better. Hence Brexit.
Oh yes. Britain, who has been playing political chess for as long as if not far longer than the rest of the world, is seeking a better way with less game playing, by exiting Europe, through a series of political games. Flawless plan.

[jaxie]

Oh yes. Britain, who has been playing political chess for as long as if not far longer than the rest of the world, is seeking a better way with less game playing, by exiting Europe, through a series of political games. Flawless plan.

So far our dear friends in the EU are the ones playing games and leaking gossip to the press. I don't recall mentioning any plan are you making stuff up?

[user104658]

So far our dear friends in the EU are the ones playing games and leaking gossip to the press. I don't recall mentioning any plan are you making stuff up?
You don't understand what I'm talking about so there isn't much point elaborating. That's not "making stuff up", however.

I would add though that if you genuinely believe that Theresa May is not playing games, then you are politically naive and you should probably be aware of that.

[Livia]

You don't understand what I'm talking about so there isn't much point elaborating. That's not "making stuff up", however.

I would add though that if you genuinely believe that Theresa May is not playing games, then you are politically naive and you should probably be aware of that.

... and the person to point out Jaxie's faults in her political thinking is... you.

There's nothing in this world you can't refer to as game-playing so long as it suits whichever agenda you're pushing.

[user104658]

... and the person to point out Jaxie's faults in her political thinking is... you.

Yes. Did you have something to say about that up front instead of "clever" sideways implications?

There's nothing in this world you can't refer to as game-playing so long as it suits whichever agenda you're pushing.

Yes I already said that. And followed up with, "but that doesn't mean we should simply accept or encourage it in our own politicians". I'm not sure which part of that is confusing, or didn't make it clear that I already know that "evryone else does it tho!". It's not a good enough excuse for a 10 year old in the playground, so it's not a good enough excuse for those in charge of the lives of millions.

[jaxie]

You don't understand what I'm talking about so there isn't much point elaborating. That's not "making stuff up", however.

I would add though that if you genuinely believe that Theresa May is not playing games, then you are politically naive and you should probably be aware of that.

Que?

I don't think I said whether she plays games or not, I have no idea if she likes a bit of Scrabble or Monopoly.

[Kizzy]

Que?

I don't think I said whether she plays games or not, I have no idea if she likes a bit of Scrabble or Monopoly.

She likes hide and seek... from the press :hehe: