It isn't the tories out to get the NHS - it's the EU

[Brillopad]

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

[Kizzy]

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

Yeah.. that's what privatisation is, albeit by stealth.

Thanks for the recommendation to read this 'spiked' article, but as everyone knows not just lefties nobody told us a bigger lie than the £350 million a week one in the brexit campaign.

I do however agree with this ' the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest.' Which is why I am still a labour supporter as I feel a Labour under Corbyn will pre date 'new Labour.' in it's appeal.

[jaxie]

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.

That's a very interesting article, thanks for sharing Brillo, though I am sure I read somewhere that Germany had a nationalised rail service. Or I could be misremembering what I'd read. :think: Or maybe it was something about it being a private company that owned their rail but the government owned all the shares, something like that.

[Kizzy]

That's a very interesting article, thanks for sharing Brillo, though I am sure I read somewhere that Germany had a nationalised rail service. Or I could be misremembering what I'd read. :think: Or maybe it was something about it being a private company that owned their rail but the government owned all the shares, something like that.

Or that that theirs is nationalised and they own part of ours?

Google is your friend.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/18/foreign-state-owned-railway-british-train-companies-revenue_n_8003970.html

[Tom4784]

White noise. Mention EU, Benefits, Terrorism or Immigration and you can get away with anything. That's the gist of the Tory playbook. Blaming EU is just another play by desperate Tory supporters who are starting to realise that a Tory win is not as assured as it was when the Election was announced.

Mentioning that the Tories haven't abolished the NHS in 40 years is not a guarantee that it's not something they are aiming for now and, tbh, it probably wouldn't be suicide to abolish the NHS because, like I said before, people will **** themselves over if they think they are doing the same to immigrants or people on benefits or any other scapegoat. Tories have gotten away with their bull**** for years by trading on people's prejudices, 'who cares what their policies are? They're against immigration so I'll vote for them!'

If the Tories win, the UK will deserve everything it gets as a result of it.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not surprised you were attracted to this article Brillo. It was written by none other than right wing Patrick West who believes most people who vote Labour are rich people who feel guilty for their wealth. He also wrote a book titled, "The Poverty of Multiculturalism"

Most of what he's written in that article is absolute nonsense.

[Brillopad]

I'm not surprised you were attracted to this article Brillo. It was written by none other than right wing Patrick West who believes most people who vote Labour are rich people who feel guilty for their wealth. He also wrote a book titled, "The Poverty of Multiculturalism"

Most of what he's written in that article is absolute nonsense.

I knew someone would say that. Yes it is a moderately right magazine but I don't see you objecting to left-thinking posters regularly posting from left-wing sources ie the independent etc. Works both ways. The Express also carried a similar article. And it makes sense.

Under Article 106 the EU prohibits public monopolies exercising exclusive rights when this violates EU competition rules - Left Futures.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm not saying the EU isn't neoliberal. There's no denying they are, but whilst its forced neoliberal ideologies across the continent, Britain has been neoliberal since Thatcher. The Tories can't defend us from the European Union any more than the European Union can defend us from the Tories because they are both following the same ideologies.

Patrick West states in that article that the Tories had to get out of the EU because of the TTIP. Why then, was Cameron leading at the helm to push the TTIP through before Obama retired from office?

[Brillopad]

I'm not saying the EU isn't neoliberal. There's no denying they are, but whilst its forced neoliberal ideologies across the continent, Britain has been neoliberal since Thatcher. The Tories can't defend us from the European Union any more than the European Union can defend us from the Tories because they are both following the same ideologies.

Patrick West states in that article that the Tories had to get out of the EU because of the TTIP. Why then, was Cameron leading at the helm to push the TTIP through before Obama retired from office?

I have no idea what goes on in Cameron's head, other than self-interest of course, but as he is no longer part of government I no longer care.

Until recently I was not aware of Article 106 and the EUs desire to de-nationalise public services and put them up for private tender. As part of the EU that would apply to our NHS. How many others are not aware of this I wonder.

Whatever some choose to believe about the tories wanting to privatise the NHS, of which there is little evidence, I feel that being part of the EU would pose a far greater risk of that happening than it would under the tories.

Beware folks the EU is the devil in disguise. As the article says 'the EU's worship of corporate capitalism doesn't fit in with the cosy narrative of the European Union being a humane, fluffy liberal force for the good'.

[Kizzy]

I knew someone would say that. Yes it is a moderately right magazine but I don't see you objecting to left-thinking posters regularly posting from left-wing sources ie the independent etc. Works both ways. The Express also carried a similar article. And it makes sense.

Under Article 106 the EU prohibits public monopolies exercising exclusive rights when this violates EU competition rules - Left Futures.

If you are stupid enough to privatise your infrastructure one might say that you deserve all you get, Germany weren't that stupid.

If brexit gives us one thing it will hopefully be the power to re nationalise everything we were crazy enough to give away.

[DemolitionRed]

I have no idea what goes on in Cameron's head, other than self-interest of course, but as he is no longer part of government I no longer care.

Until recently I was not aware of Article 106 and the EUs desire to de-nationalise public services and put them up for private tender. As part of the EU that would apply to our NHS. How many others are not aware of this I wonder.
I wrote about this extensively before the referendum.


Whatever some choose to believe about the tories wanting to privatise the NHS, of which there is little evidence, I feel that being part of the EU would pose a far greater risk of that happening than it would under the tories.

There is extensive evidence about the NHS being sold off but you have to look for it because as loud as the revelations are, the blues are experts at rolling the carpet over it.

Beware folks the EU is the devil in disguise. As the article says 'the EU's worship of corporate capitalism doesn't fit in with the cosy narrative of the European Union being a humane, fluffy liberal force for the good'.
[/QUOTE]
And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-trade-deal-must-not-be-used-to-sell-off-nhs-mps-and-union-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.

[Brillopad]

I wrote about this extensively before the referendum.


There is extensive evidence about the NHS being sold off but you have to look for it because as loud as the revelations are, the blues are experts at rolling the carpet over it.


And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-trade-deal-must-not-be-used-to-sell-off-nhs-mps-and-union-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.[/QUOTE]

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

It is inevitable as part of the EU Trade agreements if Britain remain in the EU and according to some very likely under the tories. As the former is pretty much a certainty - for those on here that use saving the NHS as a reason to stay in the EU is laughable - maybe they should read up a bit on TTIP, CETA and TiSA. Personally I would rather put my trust in the tories, as previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.

I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

[Kizzy]

And neither does the Tory government who now want to hold hands with Trump and his trade deal http://labourlist.org/2017/01/trump-trade-deal-must-not-be-used-to-sell-off-nhs-mps-and-union-tell-may/

Collecting truths from the Tories about the NHS is like trying to find hens teeth.

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

It is inevitable as part of the EU Trade agreements if Britain remain in the EU and according to some very likely under the tories. As the former is pretty much a certainty - for those on here that use saving the NHS as a reason to stay in the EU is laughable - maybe they should read up a bit on TTIP, CETA and TiSA. Personally I would rather put my trust in the tories, as previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.

I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

I could flip that back at you, I can't believe the hypocrisy, ignorance or just plain blinkered arrogance of championing the tories corner when they have already all but privatised the NHS on the quiet already, the guy in charge wrote a book on it!

A quick search will show you Branson bought adult social care this year, which begs the question why were we asked to subsidise this via council tax?

[Brillopad]

I could flip that back at you, I can't believe the hypocrisy, ignorance or just plain blinkered arrogance of championing the tories corner when they have already all but privatised the NHS on the quiet already, the guy in charge wrote a book on it!

A quick search will show you Branson bought adult social care this year, which begs the question why were we asked to subsidise this via council tax?

The EU will privatise those services. You are aware of that I take it. So what does it have to do with leaving the EU or not.

[Kizzy]

The EU will privatise those services. You are aware of that I take it. So what does it have to do with leaving the EU or not.

They wouldn't have to it's already done :/

CETA is nothing to do with us btw, the others any member states government has the power to veto AFTER negotiotions... unlike brexit.
You are aware of this I take it?

[Brillopad]

They wouldn't have to it's already done :/

CETA is nothing to do with us btw, the others any member states government has the power to veto AFTER negotiotions... unlike brexit.
You are aware of this I take it?

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

Luckily for us Brexit is our get out clause. I wouldn't trust the EU further than I could throw them.

[the truth]

Lefties, if you want to save the NHS become Brexiteers - an article from Spiked Magazine 12th May 2017.

'Yes, you can always tell when an election is upon us because it's time 'to save the NHS'. There are 14 days to save the NHS as Tony Blair said in April 1997 for example. Labour has been cynically wheeling out the line that the tories are going to privitise the NHS since the 1990s. They have vowed to 'save the NHS' since the 1980s. It's a dismal and pathetic strategy which only exposes the hollowness of a party that began to lose its heart and purpose in the 1960s, when the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest. Shouty alarmism is all it's got left now.

Because, as you will have noticed, over the past 40 years the Conservatives have never privatised the NHS. Sure they have scaled back the number of free-upon-demand services and introduced the private sector into various areas. And some have talked of privatising it. But there's never been privatisation. And neither will the evil tories ever do so. It would be electoral suicide. Most conservative supporters are not free-market fundamentalists - they consider it 'our NHS' too.

Yet it is true that there is a body of free-market fundamentalists who would like to privitise the NHS, and it's the European Union - that body, which remember, dear Labour manifesto writers, still forbids the re-nationalisation of 'our railways' or our 'postal services', because that would break one of its iron principles: the free market'.

Very interesting article, which casts a dark shadow over Labour Party policies and its constant attempts to use the NHS as some sort of 'bargaining chip'. It is simply preying on the fears of the working-class on losing their much valued NHS. I personally found the above article informative and thought- provoking - thoughts please.


This article is so very true

You only have to compare nhs england with nhs wales
oh the welsh labour claim always theyre more caring they will save the nhs and stop it being privatised....yet all theyve ever done is waste, is to double / treble ceo wages and of treble the amount of burocrats and middle management which wastes the nhs billions

under the so called caring labour mrsa spread like wildfire, the abuses and cover ups were at record highs...the reporting system and the ombudsman was scaled back and those who dared criticize were bullied ...50% of doctors interviewed said they felt bullied and intimidated into not complaining during labours reign...debts rose and we saw the biggest abuses in nhs history with over 1000 dying of thirst and neglect in stafford hospital
sadly people dont bother protesting against labour sick hypocrisy, waste and cover ups because the tories and other party voters are not bullies like the labour unionists....though they did have 1 march against labours illegal iraq war which killed a milliion innocents and labour ignored that as they have zero respect for joe public

lets not forget too nhs england is run infinitely smarter than labours nhs wales which is way way behind on most measurements and most waiting lists....in some cases its several months behind...the poor people of wales have a second class system now. even a simple eye test takes 10 weeks for the results, in england in many hospitals its the same day. the complacent burocratic mess that is welsh nhs is frightening. the way welsh labour try to define almost every improvement in nhs england as privatising is totally dishonest and misleading. for example nhs england has a computer system that allows everyon in england to be on a national waiting lists, so they a londonder can be seen in liverpool straight away if theyre willing to travel. wales, a way smaller nation doesnt even have such a nationwide database so everyone is only on a local narrower waiting list...you can barely get a private operation or private treatment for many things in wales even if you have the policies. why? because welsh labour stop it....welsh labour intriduced the car parking fees too oh and lets not forget welsh labour created the junior doctors strike in the first place...how you say?

They signed the insane 2004 gp doctors contract which allowed 90% of all gp doctors to opt out from doing any more out of hours work (for a 6% pay cut at the time , though their wages soon ballooned under labour) so we lost 90% of our gp's out of hours and dentists thanks to labour. that put 90% ore pressure on hospital doctors? insane and people got sicker bed blocking got worse, debts rose. just insane

OH but its ok because labour SAY they are more caring, so that little bit of self praise they shower themselves with means we are supposed to ignore all the facts as labour always tend to do

neu bevan would be utterly ashamed of what labour has become and the lies and mismanagement and how they bankrupted the nation ruined the nhs and took us to illegal wars than killed a million innocents

[Kizzy]

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

Luckily for us Brexit is our get out clause. I wouldn't trust the EU further than I could throw them.

Huge chunks, the most lucrative services were sold off, which is why the NHS went from being in the black to being in the red during the term of the last 2 parliaments.

As I stated Branson just snaffled adult social care in the midlands , a quick search will show you how deep the rot goes.

With the tories in charge brexit is a noose and nothing else.

[Brillopad]

Huge chunks, the most lucrative services were sold off, which is why the NHS went from being in the black to being in the red during the term of the last 2 parliaments.

As I stated Branson just snaffled adult social care in the midlands , a quick search will show you how deep the rot goes.

With the tories in charge brexit is a noose and nothing else.

Well as it seems obvious our NHS is doomed in or out, the NHS clearly has nothing to do with Brexit. As Corbyn would negotiate a Brexit that would cause us many other problems I would still still opt for the Tories.

[the truth]

Yeah.. that's what privatisation is, albeit by stealth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/eu-referendum-claims-won-brexit-fact-checked/

Thanks for the recommendation to read this 'spiked' article, but as everyone knows not just lefties nobody told us a bigger lie than the £350 million a week one in the brexit campaign.

I do however agree with this ' the takeover of the working-class movement by the upper-middle class social liberals began in earnest.' Which is why I am still a labour supporter as I feel a Labour under Corbyn will pre date 'new Labour.' in it's appeal.

there were far more lies told by bremainers
osbournes claimed all sorts of nonsense including a massive rise in unemployment within a year and every household would lose £4300 per annum , this was double even the wprst case scenarios from the most respected think tanks
labours union leaders like frances ogrady claimed it would cost our public purses alone £10 billion a year minimum, thats hard to work out when our net contribution (all we put in which was £250 million a week less all we take out which is £90 million leaves us £160 million net losses per week = £8 billiona year thats equal to around half of the entire welsh governments budget)
alan johnson claimed 66% of all uk manufacturing jobs are directly reliant on eu demand. big fat lie, its nearer 15%

the figure of £350 million inc £258 million we send each week...it also includes the £33 billion in red tape which is the estimate of what eu red tape costs our businesses plus the rebate of £4.8 billion per annum which many bremainers wanted to hand back to brussels

[Kizzy]

The IFS has already stated catagorically brexit is already costing families over £1000 PA, and we're not out yet.

[Brillopad]

The IFS has already stated catagorically brexit is already costing families over £1000 PA, and we're not out yet.

Short-term pain, long-term gain.

Besides Corbyn's policies of long-term borrowing will have the same effect.

[Kizzy]

Short-term pain, long-term gain.

Besides Corbyn's policies of long-term borrowing will have the same effect.

And you know this how?

Your faith in this govt is at best misguided.

It was Hammond who committed to borrowing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/08/philip-hammond-has-raised-taxes-borrowing-throw-yet-good-money/

[Kazanne]

Are people just forgetting the 10/12 million Labour wasted on the NHS ? seems so.

[Kizzy]

sorry I must have missed that Kaz when was that, and what was it wasted on?

[joeysteele]

sorry I must have missed that Kaz when was that, and what was it wasted on?

It wasn't, some things could have been done and others as to GPs perhaps streamlined but no funding was wasted in my view by Labour.

What is a waste was the 'promised never to be going to happen under the Cameron led govt' 'unnecessary' and 'costly' top down re organisation of the NHS he brought in.

Something that has demoralised staff and it's still causing problems across the NHS.

You won't hear Con supporters moaning at that lie and disastrous re organisation however.

[Brillopad]

It wasn't



You can't just make a statement like that without something to back it up.

Are people expected to believe you know - end of!

[DemolitionRed]

If that is the case then it it is a foregone conclusion that privatisation of the NHS will occur in or out of the EU.

Yes, so long as we have a Tory government.


As previously mentioned it would be electoral suicide for them to privatise the NHS, than trust the EU with all their 'secret' negotiations.


Watch this space. I intend to regurgitate this post in a few years time.


I really can't believe the hypocrisy, or ignorance, of those who shout very loudly about staying in the EU but then harp on equally as loudly about protecting our NHS. We can't have both.

The EU is one big corporate giant but they aren't the one forcing the hand of the Tory government over the NHS. The Neoliberal EU makes privatization less painful but you still need a Neoliberal (Tory) disire to go ahead with something as big as this.

[DemolitionRed]

How is it already done - evidence? Social Services and the NHS are still publically funded.

And there was me thinking the sell off was common knowledge. :bawling:

Whilst you may believe nothing has changed because we still get free health treatment at the point of delivery. The truth is, Foundation Trusts and most GP practices are now semi-independent business models. That means they are privately owned.

The way the government got away with this (and we are talking from Thatcher, through New Labour to now) is, they started to under invest to the point where the NHS started under performing. The government could then start claiming the NHS is no longer affordable/viable and desperately needs modernizing. This smear campaign, the brain child of Thatcher and Ken Clarke has worked magnificently.

The 2012 Health and Social Care Act removes the Government’s responsibility for the NHS, passing it down to a series of other bodies instead. Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are forced to open contracts to unlimited privatisation. Private companies are “cherry-picking” lucrative contracts leaving NHS trusts with even less money. CCGs are set to be privatised. It is difficult to believe but CCGs are now legally obliged to provide only emergency care and ambulances; the rest is up to their discretion. This translates into unlimited rationing. See here http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/how-the-nhs-is-being-dismantled-in-10-easy-steps-10474075.html

So how does this end. Our health service will have clinical commissioning groups acting as insurance pools, buying care from private companies. The NHS will become a state insurer along the lines of Medicare in the US.
We are nearing the point of losing universal healthcare for each and every one of us. Bit by bit we will be told that certain extras are no longer free and we will be offered a cheap (to begin with) insurance to cover those extras. Slowly but surely, that list will get bigger.

[DemolitionRed]

This article is so very true

You only have to compare nhs england with nhs wales
oh the welsh labour claim always theyre more caring they will save the nhs and stop it being privatised....yet all theyve ever done is waste, is to double / treble ceo wages and of treble the amount of burocrats and middle management which wastes the nhs billions

New Labour wanted to privatize the NHS as much as Thatcher and Major but we no longer have NL. You can't keep comparing the old NL with the Labour party of today... well you can try but it doesn't make much sense!

under the so called caring labour mrsa spread like wildfire, the abuses and cover ups were at record highs...the reporting system and the ombudsman was scaled back and those who dared criticize were bullied ...50% of doctors interviewed said they felt bullied and intimidated into not complaining during labours reign...debts rose and we saw the biggest abuses in nhs history with over 1000 dying of thirst and neglect in stafford hospital
New Labour does not = Labour. Can you please try and get your head round that?
As for bullying. My dad, a consultant for the NHS, is not allowed to publicly talk about the sell off. There is a huge amount of intimidation top down from the corporate giants now running the show. He knows doctors who have been intimidated so much they've had to leave the service... speak out and you get chased out.

[Brillopad]

And there was me thinking the sell off was common knowledge. :bawling:

Whilst you may believe nothing has changed because we still get free health treatment at the point of delivery. The truth is, Foundation Trusts and most GP practices are now semi-independent business models. That means they are privately owned.

The way the government got away with this (and we are talking from Thatcher, through New Labour to now) is, they started to under invest to the point where the NHS started under performing. The government could then start claiming the NHS is no longer affordable/viable and desperately needs modernizing. This smear campaign, the brain child of Thatcher and Ken Clarke has worked magnificently.

The 2012 Health and Social Care Act removes the Government’s responsibility for the NHS, passing it down to a series of other bodies instead. Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are forced to open contracts to unlimited privatisation. Private companies are “cherry-picking” lucrative contracts leaving NHS trusts with even less money. CCGs are set to be privatised. It is difficult to believe but CCGs are now legally obliged to provide only emergency care and ambulances; the rest is up to their discretion. This translates into unlimited rationing. See here http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/how-the-nhs-is-being-dismantled-in-10-easy-steps-10474075.html

So how does this end. Our health service will have clinical commissioning groups acting as insurance pools, buying care from private companies. The NHS will become a state insurer along the lines of Medicare in the US.
We are nearing the point of losing universal healthcare for each and every one of us. Bit by bit we will be told that certain extras are no longer free and we will be offered a cheap (to begin with) insurance to cover those extras. Slowly but surely, that list will get bigger.

That sounds very much the same as the EU plan to do - and personally I would rather have no NHS outside of Europe than inside.

[DemolitionRed]

Are people just forgetting the 10/12 million Labour wasted on the NHS ? seems so.

Do you mean New Labour?
Are you talking about middle management rise? if not, you need to be clearer

[DemolitionRed]

It wasn't, some things could have been done and others as to GPs perhaps streamlined but no funding was wasted in my view by Labour.

What is a waste was the 'promised never to be going to happen under the Cameron led govt' 'unnecessary' and 'costly' top down re organisation of the NHS he brought in.

Something that has demoralised staff and it's still causing problems across the NHS.

You won't hear Con supporters moaning at that lie and disastrous re organisation however.

I know and it baffles me. :conf:

[DemolitionRed]

That sounds very much the same as the EU plan to do - and personally I would rather have no NHS outside of Europe than inside.

Me too but if we have any chance to save and restore the NHS, we have to get rid of the Tory's.

I'm not saying all Conservatives think like this present neoliberal government do. Traditional (Crunchy) Conservatism is a very sound ideology.

[Brillopad]

Me too but if we have any chance to save and restore the NHS, we have to get rid of the Tory's.

I'm not saying all Conservatives think like this present neoliberal government do. Traditional (Crunchy) Conservatism is a very sound ideology.

I don't know, but I do know the NHS is not the only mammoth consideration. I simply do not trust Corbyn or Farron on other policies. Certainly with Corbyn coming out the EU won't be coming out of the EU. We will be EU puppets and nothing much will change.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't know, but I do know the NHS is not the only mammoth consideration. I simply do not trust Corbyn or Farron on other policies. Certainly with Corbyn coming out the EU won't be coming out of the EU. We will be EU puppets and nothing much will change.

I'm not concerned for my husband and myself but I'm greatly concerned for my children and my future grandchildren.

[Brillopad]

I'm not concerned for my husband and myself but I'm greatly concerned for my children and my future grandchildren.

Same here - it's natural to want a secure future for your children etc.

[the truth]

New Labour wanted to privatize the NHS as much as Thatcher and Major but we no longer have NL. You can't keep comparing the old NL with the Labour party of today... well you can try but it doesn't make much sense!
New Labour does not = Labour. Can you please try and get your head round that?
As for bullying. My dad, a consultant for the NHS, is not allowed to publicly talk about the sell off. There is a huge amount of intimidation top down from the corporate giants now running the show. He knows doctors who have been intimidated so much they've had to leave the service... speak out and you get chased out.

new labour IS labour and loads of the new labour mps are still in power so wrggle all you like the last labour government were a disaster
your argument is very selective ask people who worked in the nhs under labour 1997 to 2010 endless bullying endless cover ups endless waste and middle management and absurd trusts and absurd targets and people thousands of people being starved to death and record levels of undiagnosed blood clots etc the list goes on and on...ask about all that? or do you only ask about stuff that fits your agends

[Livia]

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

[Tom4784]

The NHS is mismanaged BECAUSE the Tories want it to be so they can make people believe it needs 'reworking' AKA dismantling. The Doctor's strikes, the endless budget cuts etc. This is all to turn people's opinions against the NHS and make it easier to get rid of.

Unemployed people certainly don't have anything to do with the state of the NHS but I suppose it's better to blame the vulnerable rather than the people in charge who are purposely mismanaging budgets to sway public opinion.

[Kizzy]

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

Sorry.. Get what for nothing social care or a pension?

What is the difference between feckless and work shy, how could you apply for your universal credit stating this as your pastime?

And finally should you be feckless or work shy should you simply do the rest of the hard working UK a favour and off yourself?

[Livia]

Sorry.. Get what for nothing social care or a pension?

What is the difference between feckless and work shy, how could you apply for your universal credit stating this as your pastime?

And finally should you be feckless or work shy should you simply do the rest of the hard working UK a favour and off yourself?

Everyone should get social care free. Otherwise English people are being discriminated against because they're not Scottish. And maybe if Adult Social Services bought themselves some minibuses and a couple of decent drivers their taxi bill wouldn't be RIDICULOUS!

You're the one who's suggested people "offing themselves". I didn't even intimate that. You hate people putting words in your mouth.... yet here you are doing it to me.

[Kizzy]

Everyone should get social care free. Otherwise English people are being discriminated against because they're not Scottish. And maybe if Adult Social Services bought themselves some minibuses and a couple of decent drivers their taxi bill wouldn't be RIDICULOUS!

You're the one who's suggested people "offing themselves". I didn't even intimate that. You hate people putting words in your mouth.... yet here you are doing it to me.

I didn't say you had, I asked you a question is all.

Maybe will the 10 billion squandered on useless IT systems could have bought a few buses... hey! they could have that one they wrote that lie on :)

[Toy Soldier]

The funding the NHS gets is not managed properly. That's not to say they couldn't do with more cash... I'd just like to be assured it wasn't going to be mismanaged. The NHS haemorrhages money. Similarly, if you're concerned about adult social care and the fact that many hard-working, working class people who've saved and paid into a pension are now helping to fund the feckless and the workshy to get it for nothing..... look at the taxi bill your local adult services pays. It'll be staggering.

The NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world, though, and FAR more effecient than - for example - the insurance-based US system. This has been written about so many times that I have to assume anyone who still thinks that the NHS is (comparatively) inefficient is simply parroting what they've heard, rather than speaking from any knowledge of the actual running costs.

I also find it somewhat hilarious that most people would recoil in horror at the idea of their taxes being raised by, say, £30 a month to directly fund the NHS... clearly having absolutely no idea how much private health insurance would be costing them if the NHS was gone (hint: it's a LOT more than £30 a month).

[Kizzy]

Great point TS has anyone wondered how they would fund a private healthcare policy...specifically if you had complex needs or a preexisting or congenital condition?
Not to mention extras like critical illness or cover if you were involved in an accident and unable to work for any length of time due to hospital stays and or rehabilitation.

So basically the fact that we all pay in IS our insurance for all that and more, I don't begrudge paying one little bit and can't comprehend why anyone would.

[joeysteele]

The NHS is one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world, though, and FAR more effecient than - for example - the insurance-based US system. This has been written about so many times that I have to assume anyone who still thinks that the NHS is (comparatively) inefficient is simply parroting what they've heard, rather than speaking from any knowledge of the actual running costs.

I also find it somewhat hilarious that most people would recoil in horror at the idea of their taxes being raised by, say, £30 a month to directly fund the NHS... clearly having absolutely no idea how much private health insurance would be costing them if the NHS was gone (hint: it's a LOT more than £30 a month).


Really strong points.
Something that should be very heavily thought about.

[Livia]

I didn't say you had, I asked you a question is all.

Maybe will the 10 billion squandered on useless IT systems could have bought a few buses... hey! they could have that one they wrote that lie on :)

Maybe we could save some of the cash we spend on benefits... you know, the unemployed who can afford to have Sky and take foreign holidays. We could stop sending foreign aid to countries who have a space programme... there's lots we can do. But we're talking about the way local authorities spend their money and not national party issues.

[Tom4784]

Maybe we could save some of the cash we spend on benefits... you know, the unemployed who can afford to have Sky and take foreign holidays. We could stop sending foreign aid to countries who have a space programme... there's lots we can do. But we're talking about the way local authorities spend their money and not national party issues.

Ohai Daily Mail.

Tax loopholes and breaks cost us more than the benefits system ever will, it's just easier to blame the vulnerable parts of society, I guess.

[Mystic Mock]

Labour may exaggerate, but the Tories have slowly bit by bit tried to make the NHS look as incompetent as it possibly can be so that the public turns around and says they want rid of it, and after Brexit where we've now left our country's fate up in the air, it really wouldn't surprise me then to see most people not care about their own healthcare.

[DemolitionRed]

new labour IS labour and loads of the new labour mps are still in power so wrggle all you like the last labour government were a disaster
your argument is very selective ask people who worked in the nhs under labour 1997 to 2010 endless bullying endless cover ups endless waste and middle management and absurd trusts and absurd targets and people thousands of people being starved to death and record levels of undiagnosed blood clots etc the list goes on and on...ask about all that? or do you only ask about stuff that fits your agends

And its the Blairites within the Labour party that have played the biggest hand in demonizing Corbyn and bringing about huge disruption within the party. The Blairites are just as neoliberal as May and so its crucial we never swap Corbyn for one of them.

You are complaining about the past with no real knowledge on present times.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11398148/The-NHS-whistle-blowers-who-spoke-out-for-patients.html
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/an-insiders-guide-to-the-nhs-crisis
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2948371/Thousands-left-scared-speak-poor-NHS-care-Estimated-250-000-incidents-year-not-reported-patients-think-make-matters-worse.html.

The NHS never got better after Blair. “Relentless cuts” to the health service could be behind 30,000 deaths in 2015, argued researchers in two articles published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/nhs-cuts-excess-deaths-30000-study-research-royal-society-medicine-london-school-hygiene-martin-a7585001.html

[Kizzy]

Maybe we could save some of the cash we spend on benefits... you know, the unemployed who can afford to have Sky and take foreign holidays. We could stop sending foreign aid to countries who have a space programme... there's lots we can do. But we're talking about the way local authorities spend their money and not national party issues.

I'm sorry you appear to have spun off on some ranty tangent here... :/

We are talking specifically how our national party has mismanaged 10 billion pounds of public funds on a useless IT system that is not fit for purpose... I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Niamh.]

Labour may exaggerate, but the Tories have slowly bit by bit tried to make the NHS look as incompetent as it possibly can be so that the public turns around and says they want rid of it, and after Brexit where we've now left our country's fate up in the air, it really wouldn't surprise me then to see most people not care about their own healthcare.

I would just find it astounding that any of you would want rid of it. No one can surely want medical bills like the US have to pay not even people who are loaded

[Kizzy]

You would have to be totally insane to want rid of it! Literally mad.

[joeysteele]

Labour may exaggerate, but the Tories have slowly bit by bit tried to make the NHS look as incompetent as it possibly can be so that the public turns around and says they want rid of it, and after Brexit where we've now left our country's fate up in the air, it really wouldn't surprise me then to see most people not care about their own healthcare.


I actually despair for the NHS after brexit and under this extreme, and.in fact severely extreme govt. with greater power.

Really sadly for the UK, again a minority who actually vote will,because they did not get behind the one other source in politics,who could beat these hardline hard-hearted present front people of this Conservative Party.
That minority will inflict on all across the UK even more failed and heartless policies.

I agree with you, the NHS will be made to appear more incompetent and unsustainable that this awful govt. will then create the atmosphere of greater or total privatisation it's being the the only answer.
That will be a very sad and bad day indeed but I expect that coming about now,more than I have since becoming interested in politics.

[Kazanne]

No one will get rid of the NHS ,it is here to stay,but they DO need to manage their money better,they will obviously be more stretched now as there are more people to deal with,that's not rocket science surely,we need to start somewhere to curb unnecessary expenses in all departments,not just the NHS, and by everyone.

[Tom4784]

I would just find it astounding that any of you would want rid of it. No one can surely want medical bills like the US have to pay not even people who are loaded

A lot of people would cut off their nose to spite their face, it's the same reason why the Tories are so popular with voting demographics that they shouldn't have any traction with.

Mention Brexit, Immigrants or Benefits and people will vote for you regardless of the facts.

[joeysteele]

No one will get rid of the NHS ,it is here to stay,but they DO need to manage their money better,they will obviously be more stretched now as there are more people to deal with,that's not rocket science surely,we need to start somewhere to curb unnecessary expenses in all departments,not just the NHS, and by everyone.

It's only here to stay if the people can make sure it is.
After 18 years in govt. the fact was in 1997,the NHS was on its knees.

Labour could have done more and chose a few wrong avenues to go down but by 2010 it was in a much better state.

Here only 7 years into Con led govt again,it is near crippled again.
That's no coincidence,as Mock implied it is almost probably engineered by this govt.

The Cons fought against having an NHS all through its creation after the war,voting against just about every bit of legislation as to it.

Better Conservative leaders with more moderated Con govts worked with it,helping build it up,not bring it down,until Mrs Thatcher who was obsessed with privatisation.

I wouldn't trust Mrs May's word on a single thing and for sure never with the NHS.
The fact she has left the only confrontational Hunt as Health secretary speaks volumes,to me at least.

With a much weakened Labour party and a greatly increased majority,this power mad woman and her hardline party,I really think will see this as their only chance to dismantle the NHS.
With a set up private health system and a very basic 3rd rate at best health set up for the poorest with no private care plans.
Involving basic care and much longer waiting times.

Never would I trust this woman's word on the NHS,then again I wouldn't trust her word as to anything anyway.
Vote her back if you must,be misled by her to believe the NHS is safe with her awful hardline govt.but once the NHS is gone it will be gone.
Too late to moan at then or change what she will have done to it after 5 more years with much greater power given her in this election.

[Brillopad]

It's only here to stay if the people can make sure it is.
After 18 years in govt. the fact was in 1997,the NHS was on its knees.

Labour could have done more and chose a few wrong avenues to go down but by 2010 it was in a much better state.

Here only 7 years into Con led govt again,it is near crippled again.
That's no coincidence,as Mock implied it is almost probably engineered by this govt.

The Cons fought against having an NHS all through its creation after the war,voting against just about every bit of legislation as to it.

Better Conservative leaders with more moderated Con govts worked with it,helping build it up,not bring it down,until Mrs Thatcher who was obsessed with privatisation.

I wouldn't trust Mrs May's word on a single thing and for sure never with the NHS.
The fact she has left the only confrontational Hunt as Health secretary speaks volumes,to me at least.

With a much weakened Labour party and a greatly increased majority,this power mad woman and her hardline party,I really think will see this as their only chance to dismantle the NHS.
With a set up private health system and a very basic 3rd rate at best health set up for the poorest with no private care plans.
Involving basic care and much longer waiting times.

Never would I trust this woman's word on the NHS,then again I wouldn't trust her word as to anything anyway.
Vote her back if you must,be misled by her to believe the NHS is safe with her awful hardline govt.but once the NHS is gone it will be gone.
Too late to moan at then or change what she will have done to it after 5 more years with much greater power given her in this election.

The EU are even more obsessed with privatisation.

[DemolitionRed]

The EU are even more obsessed with privatisation.

Then why have the UK sold off and privatized more industry than any other country in Europe?

Most of its now owned by foreign investors.