If Brexit is all about taking back control and regaining sovereignty

[Scarlett.]

Then why is the government slowly farming out the NHS, police and other national services to multinational companies like G4S and healthcare companies in America? Surely if we want to take back control we shouldn't be selling our country wholesale?

[Mystic Mock]

It's the Tory way Chewy, and right wing politics in general, all about the short term and it ends up selling the country down the river as we own nothing.

[jaxie]

The EU is strongly in favour of privatisation so your point is rather doubtful OP. It astounds me sometimes how little those supporting the EU actually know about it.

[DemolitionRed]

The EU is strongly in favour of privatisation so your point is rather doubtful OP. It astounds me sometimes how little those supporting the EU actually know about it.

Why then, when the EU gave every member a choice to opt out of selling off their medical assets, did every country except us opt out?

Not a lot of people know this.

[jaxie]

Why then, when the EU gave every member a choice to opt out of selling off their medical assets, did every country except us opt out?

Not a lot of people know this.

I've not seen any evidence of that and would need a lot more information before forming an opinion but I would imagine it had something to do with whoever was in power at the time and what the medical assets involved were and what they had in mind at the time. The Tories will never privatise the NHS as a whole, they wouldn't dare as it would be political suicide and they know it. Though you could argue elements of the NHS have been in private hands since the early 80s. Though opting out of any EU plan is rather a moot point since we are leaving.

The EU is in favour of privitisation, your reply doesn't really have much bearing on my actual response as it's not in the same context and just really an anti Tory point scoring which as a non Tory I couldn't really care less about. As someone who stated they voted for Brexit your defence of the EU is surprisingly inconsistent.

[Tom4784]

I've not seen any evidence of that and would need a lot more information before forming an opinion but I would imagine it had something to do with whoever was in power at the time and what the medical assets involved were and what they had in mind at the time. The Tories will never privatise the NHS as a whole, they wouldn't dare as it would be political suicide and they know it. Though you could argue elements of the NHS have been in private hands since the early 80s. Though opting out of any EU plan is rather a moot point since we are leaving.

Never underestimate how willing the voting public are to go against themselves out of spite for immigrants, the EU and people on benefits.

Mention any of those three and a large section of the voting public will vote for you and forgive you regardless of what you do. buzzwords matter more to most voters then actual policies.

[jaxie]

Never underestimate how willing the voting public are to go against themselves out of spite for immigrants, the EU and people on benefits.

Mention any of those three and a large section of the voting public will vote for you and forgive you regardless of what you do. buzzwords matter more to most voters then actual policies.

Spite for immigrants is largely an illusion being thrown about every time anyone dares to say maybe we should look at who comes to the UK, look at their skills and maybe try to have a fairer system. Of course there are spiteful people but the narrow minded rhetoric about those who voted leave is ridiculous and offensive, and pretty much as bad as what you are accusing the people who voted leave of doing on mass. There were many reasons beyond immigration to vote to leave.

[Kizzy]

The EU is strongly in favour of privatisation so your point is rather doubtful OP. It astounds me sometimes how little those supporting the EU actually know about it.

We are not discussing the EU.... The EU had nothing to do with the OPs query :/

[jaxie]

We are not discussing the EU.... The EU had nothing to do with the OPs query :/

The OP is about Brexit, Brexit is about leaving the EU.

[Scarlett.]

The thread isnt arguing for or against Brexit, Brexit is happening now, so, there's no point debating that. I'm talking about the fact that the government wants to keep selling off parts of this country when they claim to be 'taking back control'.

[Kizzy]

The OP is about Brexit, Brexit is about leaving the EU.

It is noting to do with brexit... brexit is done, finished.

We are a stand alone country, as Chewy rightly says why then must our govt insist on it's reliance on foreign investors and/ or countries?
How could that be considered 'sovereign', is it not exactly how we would function if we were still part of the EU and having to abide by EU free trade rules?

[Tom4784]

Spite for immigrants is largely an illusion being thrown about every time anyone dares to say maybe we should look at who comes to the UK, look at their skills and maybe try to have a fairer system. Of course there are spiteful people but the narrow minded rhetoric about those who voted leave is ridiculous and offensive, and pretty much as bad as what you are accusing the people who voted leave of doing on mass. There were many reasons beyond immigration to vote to leave.

A naive outlook.

Also when did I mention anything about the leave camp? People in general are spiteful and vote without context for their actions, it's why newspaper headlines, buzz words and catchphrases have more sway with the public than actual policies. May isn't saying 'Strong and Stable' at every opportunity for the sake of it, she's saying it because people buy into that ****.

The vast majority of voters are uninformed, that much is apparent just by looking at the major influences when it comes to voting.

[the truth]

Then why is the government slowly farming out the NHS, police and other national services to multinational companies like G4S and healthcare companies in America? Surely if we want to take back control we shouldn't be selling our country wholesale?

good points....lets have brexit in the hands of corbyn

[jaxie]

A naive outlook.

Also when did I mention anything about the leave camp? People in general are spiteful and vote without context for their actions, it's why newspaper headlines, buzz words and catchphrases have more sway with the public than actual policies. May isn't saying 'Strong and Stable' at every opportunity for the sake of it, she's saying it because people buy into that ****.

The vast majority of voters are uninformed, that much is apparent just by looking at the major influences when it comes to voting.

It's incredibly arrogant to assume the voting public are uninformed.

[Mystic Mock]

It's incredibly arrogant to assume the voting public are uninformed.

I've read it all over Social Media, and with some of my own friends and family, alot of them were voting out of the EU because of things that weren't to do with the EU.

[jaxie]

I've read it all over Social Media, and with some of my own friends and family, alot of them were voting out of the EU because of things that weren't to do with the EU.

But you don't know 17 million people do you Mock?

[Denver]

Screaming that people think the EU is a good place when Merkel wants to turn it into N Korea

[Mystic Mock]

But you don't know 17 million people do you Mock?

No and I've never claimed to.

But if I've noticed some who were uninformed, then I'm sure that other people have aswell, and it makes you wonder what the total number of people that were uninformed actually was for the Brexit side if you put all of the posts into a tally.

Tbf to Brexit I don't think that all of the Remainers were informed either, I certainly don't know everything about running a country's Economy and I doubt that most regular people do, that's why I feel that the Government/Media did a poor job at explaining what the EU is about to people, and the pros and cons of leaving the EU, and the pros and cons in staying in the EU. But instead we all had to go with our gut on the basic information that we all know about the EU.

[jaxie]

No and I've never claimed to.

But if I've noticed some who were uninformed, then I'm sure that other people have aswell, and it makes you wonder what the total number of people that were uninformed actually was for the Brexit side if you put all of the posts into a tally.

Tbf to Brexit I don't think that all of the Remainers were informed either, I certainly don't know everything about running a country's Economy and I doubt that most regular people do, that's why I feel that the Government/Media did a poor job at explaining what the EU is about to people, and the pros and cons of leaving the EU, and the pros and cons in staying in the EU. But instead we all had to go with our gut on the basic information that we all know about the EU.

And you could say exactly the same thing as the part in bold about anyone who voted to remain, as you mention underneath. It's just that people say it a lot more frequently about those who voted to leave and yet we can't possibly know whether there was even a reason that inspired the majority. We can't know if people went with their gut either. I can say that I'd probably have voted leave regardless of anything else after Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. I have no idea why everyone voted but I expect that were plenty of others like me who didn't share the EU ideology and didn't want it.

[Tom4784]

It's incredibly arrogant to assume the voting public are uninformed.

It's wilful ignorance to believe they aren't just because votes go the way you want them to.

The voting public is largely uninformed, this is pretty much a fact. You only have to look at the tactics of the winning sides of most recent elections to see this. You can scream that I'm arrogant until your throat is raw and it won't change the fact that I'm right.

Simple buzzwords, headlines, mottos and other frivolous bull**** are what wins hearts and minds in an election. To fool yourself into believing otherwise is just silly.

[Brillopad]

It is noting to do with brexit... brexit is done, finished.

We are a stand alone country, as Chewy rightly says why then must our govt insist on it's reliance on foreign investors and/ or countries?
How could that be considered 'sovereign', is it not exactly how we would function if we were still part of the EU and having to abide by EU free trade rules?

I very much doubt we will be 'standing alone' for long.

[Kizzy]

I very much doubt we will be 'standing alone' for long.

What has this to do with the OP?

[Brillopad]

What has this to do with the OP?

People still seem to be under the illusion the NHS will be in safe hands with the EU. It won't. If worried about one they should be worried about both.

[Scarlett.]

Well it's too late to worry what the EU would do with the NHS anyway. It's not to late to worry what the current government is doing though.

[Kizzy]

People still seem to be under the illusion the NHS will be in safe hands with the EU. It won't. If worried about one they should be worried about both.

Can you try to answer the concerns of the OP without twisting the debate to suit your agenda?

[jaxie]

It's wilful ignorance to believe they aren't just because votes go the way you want them to.

The voting public is largely uninformed, this is pretty much a fact. You only have to look at the tactics of the winning sides of most recent elections to see this. You can scream that I'm arrogant until your throat is raw and it won't change the fact that I'm right.

Simple buzzwords, headlines, mottos and other frivolous bull**** are what wins hearts and minds in an election. To fool yourself into believing otherwise is just silly.

You keep up with the name calling as usual. I'll just try not to join in. When you say the voting public are uninformed I'll presume you are speaking personally about yourself. I can't imagine you'd believe yourself more informed than everyone else.

[Tom4784]

You keep up with the name calling as usual. I'll just try not to join in. When you say the voting public are uninformed I'll presume you are speaking personally about yourself. I can't imagine you'd believe yourself more informed than everyone else.

Hmm.

It's incredibly arrogant to assume the voting public are uninformed.

If you've got nothing to add but hypocritical attacks on my character then our little discussion is over. I've stated why the public are uninformed and you have provided nothing but indignation. If you have a problem with what I'm saying then prove me wrong, don't try to invalidate opinions you dislike but can't disprove by acting like it's a personal attack.

[jaxie]

Hmm.



If you've got nothing to add but hypocritical attacks on my character then our little discussion is over. I've stated why the public are uninformed and you have provided nothing but indignation. If you have a problem with what I'm saying then prove me wrong, don't try to invalidate opinions you dislike but can't disprove by acting like it's a personal attack.

I'm not going to be petty and quote your frequent name calling. As stated decided to watch you continue alone. It's not upon me to prove wrong statements regarding 65 million people (or thereabouts) being uninformed. It's upon you to stop calling 65 million people names and making judgement calls like you know something. Any other defensive accusations are fantasy.

[Kizzy]

I'm not going to be petty and quote your frequent name calling. As stated decided to watch you continue alone. It's not upon me to prove wrong statements regarding 65 million people (or thereabouts) being uninformed. It's upon you to stop calling 65 million people names and making judgement calls like you know something. Any other defensive accusations are fantasy.

Media bias is a thing... It's not name calling to acknowledge that.

[jaxie]

Media bias is a thing... It's not name calling to acknowledge that.

What about being called naive, willfully ignorant and silly, and the voting public uninformed?

[Kizzy]

What about being called naive, willfully ignorant and silly, and the voting public uninformed?

If you are not presented with a balanced argument you remain ignorant and uninformed as to the facts don't you?

[jaxie]

If you are not presented with a balanced argument you remain ignorant and uninformed as to the facts don't you?

That depends I suppose if the person giving the argument knows what they are talking about or just think they do. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

I'm not going to be petty and quote your frequent name calling. As stated decided to watch you continue alone. It's not upon me to prove wrong statements regarding 65 million people (or thereabouts) being uninformed. It's upon you to stop calling 65 million people names and making judgement calls like you know something. Any other defensive accusations are fantasy.

So you don't have a counter argument to what I'm saying?

[Brillopad]

If you are not presented with a balanced argument you remain ignorant and uninformed as to the facts don't you?

Balanced just refers to two sides being presented, it doesn't mean that either side are correct or incorrect. Pasting some links provides a source of information not a guaranteed fact.

[Kizzy]

That depends I suppose if the person giving the argument knows what they are talking about or just think they do. :shrug:

We are talking about the media.....not individuals or members of this forum Jaxie :/

[jaxie]

So you don't have a counter argument to what I'm saying?

When you think of something sensible to say that isn't implying everyone who isn't you doesn't know what they are talking about, sure.

[jaxie]

We are talking about the media.....not individuals or members of this forum Jaxie :/

Where did I name an individual?

[Kizzy]

Balanced just refers to two sides being presented, it doesn't mean that either side are correct or incorrect. Pasting some links provides a source of information not a guaranteed fact.

I am aware what balanced means.... That is specifically my point however, that our media has been shown say the BBC for instance to be particularly unbalanced in favour of the tories since he call for an election.

The media has a duty to print facts, they can misrepresent, spin and present information in different ways... but they cannot lie.

[Kizzy]

Where did I name an individual?

'the person' ( from your quote)

You cannot personify the media.

[Tom4784]

When you think of something sensible to say that isn't implying everyone who isn't you doesn't know what they are talking about, sure.

Nothing but personal remarks and indignation. I won't rise to your bait.

I've stated the reasons qualifying my opinion, if you actually want a discussion then I suggest you try to form a counter argument to them otherwise give up if you haven't got anything else to add to the topic aside from trying to take it off topic because you dislike the opinions within it.

I won't respond to any more of your posts on the subject unless you are actually interested in an actual discussion.

[jaxie]

I am aware what balanced means.... That is specifically my point however, that our media has been shown say the BBC for instance to be particularly unbalanced in favour of the tories since he call for an election.

The media has a duty to print facts, they can misrepresent, spin and present information in different ways... but they cannot lie.

Explain how claiming most voters are uninformed is a balanced argument of anything?

[jaxie]

Nothing but personal remarks and indignation. I won't rise to your bait.

I've stated the reasons qualifying my opinion, if you actually want a discussion then I suggest you try to form a counter argument to them otherwise give up if you haven't got anything else to add to the topic aside from trying to take it off topic because you dislike the opinions within it.

I won't respond to any more of your posts on the subject unless you are actually interested in discussing it.

You really are amusing when you deflect. :shrug: How is saying most voters are uninformed a balanced argument of anything? You've given no reasons at all. See the highlight, that's deflecting. It's fine if you can't respond.

[jaxie]

'the person' ( from your quote)

You cannot personify the media.

What a strange and completely off subject thing to come up with. So someone reporting for the media is not a person? :think:

[Tom4784]

You really are amusing when you deflect. :shrug: How is saying most voters are uninformed a balanced argument of anything?

I'll ignore the hypocritical insult.

As for your question. I'm not a media product. Kizzy was speaking about the lack of balance in the media, not individual people. She told you this and you responded to the post so I don't really understand why you're still confused on the matter.

My opinions is that the vast majority of voters ARE uninformed and (like I said before but you ignored in favour of the 'I AM OFFENDED' tactic) the reasons why I believe that is because the dominant tactics in almost all of the recent elections are shallow and ultimately uninformative. Theresa May has been saying 'Strong and Stable' at every chance she's given because people respond to it in spite the fact that you don't need to look hard to see that her administration is anything but. They've demonised Jeremy Corbyn to the point that the uninformed believes him to be some sort of terrorist traitor because people don't bother to fact check. Tell the voting public what they want to hear and they will respond regardless of the facts. The same can be said for the previous two elections, the referendum, every US election ever and more.

Policies and hard facts aren't sexy. The public in general don't respond to anything that isn't a buzzword, headline or soundbite.

[jaxie]

I'll ignore the hypocritical insult.

As for your question. I'm not a media product. Kizzy was speaking about the lack of balance in the media, not individual people. She told you this and you responded to the post so I don't really understand why you're still confused on the matter.

My opinions is that the vast majority of voters ARE uninformed and (like I said before but you ignored in favour of the 'I AM OFFENDED' tactic) the reasons why I believe that is because the dominant tactics in almost all of the recent elections are shallow and ultimately uninformative. Theresa May has been saying 'Strong and Stable' at every chance she's given because people respond to it in spite the fact that you don't need to look hard to see that her administration is anything but. They've demonised Jeremy Corbyn to the point that the uninformed believes him to be some sort of terrorist traitor because people don't bother to fact check. Tell the voting public what they want to hear and they will respond regardless of the facts. The same can be said for the previous two elections, the referendum, every US election ever and more.

Policies and hard facts aren't sexy. The public in general don't respond to anything that isn't a buzzword, headline or soundbite.

Except you didn't ignore what you call a hypocritical insult (pot, kettle), you keep on replying. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

Except you didn't ignore what you call a hypocritical insult (pot, kettle), you keep on replying. :shrug:

I'll take the fact you ignored the answer to the question you asked as a white flag on your part. You are not interested in discussing anything.

[Kizzy]

What a strange and completely off subject thing to come up with. So someone reporting for the media is not a person? :think:

In essence no, not when they are representing their publication.

[jaxie]

In essence no, not when they are representing their publication. I'll have to tell my friend who works in journalism she's not a person at work, not sure what she will make of that. :shrug:

[jaxie]

I'll take the fact you ignored the answer to the question you asked as a white flag on your part. You are not interested in discussing anything.

You really can take what you like as what you like. I'd love to discuss anything with you, Dezzy, anytime when you aren't making wild statements with no substance then defensively berating me for pointing it out.

I don't really have a whole day to waste though and I'm hungry. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

I'll have to tell my friend who works in journalism she's not a person at work, not sure what she will make of that. :shrug:

You're twisting again.

My point of course was whatever her personal opinions they are not always the ones expressed during your journalistic reporting.

[Tom4784]

It's the same in any work place, while working you represent your company.