How do we stop terror attacks?

[DemolitionRed]

I believe the first question we have to ask ourselves is, why. Why do lone or group terrorists want to commit these atrocities? If we know the answer to that question, is there anything we can do to stop them?

We are well aware that it doesn't take an immigrant to create an act of terror. We also know that these terrorists wear no uniform, don't drive tanks or carry Kalashnikov's so the question is, can we physically fight this war on terror?

Enough is enough. We have, for too long heard that we are fighting this war on terror and yet, month on month, things don't improve, bombs still go off and innocents still die. From the 70s into the 2000s we had IRA bombings. How did we bring that to an end? how did we stop the killing of innocents?

May will no doubt jump on her platform and tell us all that this will no longer be tolerated, that her "war on terror" will prevail. We've heard it all before and we tragically will hear it again but the terror will continue and the masses will become more afraid whilst the government continue to reassure us that they are going to make it all better.

[Greg!]

We need to stop getting involved in middle eastern wars for a start.

[DemolitionRed]

We need to stop getting involved in middle eastern wars for a start.

Bingo. If we invade their land, they will invade ours.

[joeysteele]

We need to stop getting involved in middle eastern wars for a start.

Absolutely this for me.
It really is time to call a halt after so many bad endings to past interventions,which just help fuel the hatred against the UK even more.

[Shaun]

You don't. "Fighting terror" is as empty a phrase as "fighting crime". You can stop some of it but never all of it. Someone's always going to have a stupid cause they're willing to die for.

But yes, the cessation of drone bombing children and selling weapons to callous dictators would be a good place to start.

[UserSince2005]

kill them before they kill us, kill them all.

[Beso]

I believe the first question we have to ask ourselves is, why. Why do lone or group terrorists want to commit these atrocities? If we know the answer to that question, is there anything we can do to stop them?

We are well aware that it doesn't take an immigrant to create an act of terror. We also know that these terrorists wear no uniform, don't drive tanks or carry Kalashnikov's so the question is, can we physically fight this war on terror?

Enough is enough. We have, for too long heard that we are fighting this war on terror and yet, month on month, things don't improve, bombs still go off and innocents still die. From the 70s into the 2000s we had IRA bombings. How did we bring that to an end? how did we stop the killing of innocents?

May will no doubt jump on her platform and tell us all that this will no longer be tolerated, that her "war on terror" will prevail. We've heard it all before and we tragically will hear it again but the terror will continue and the masses will become more afraid whilst the government continue to reassure us that they are going to make it all better.



We could send corbyn for face to face negotiations.

[Toy Soldier]

kill them before they kill us, kill them all.
Yes this seems to be the standard response. "Duuuh bomb dem and dey will nart be ables to do a terrorist to us!".

But even if you put all morals aside and agree to wipe out the entire population of "maybe terror folks" - it is logistically impossible to actually do it. The more bombs you drop, the more terror attacks there will be. Simple as that. So really what it comes down to is this: people are angry and incredulous that innocent people are the victims of terror attacks. And rightly so. But is indignation and foot stomping, even if it's justified, WORTH IT if the end result is actually more deaths of innocents rather than less?

Striking back in anger (back at who, anyway? Drop bombs where?) is never going to be the answer to this no matter how tempting an option it might seem. When people start getting their heads around that, we might actually stand some sort of chance in making some progress. Until then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Every angry voice advocating further and more aggressive military action is contributing to future deaths in our own country. That might sound harsh but it's the absolute truth.

[DemolitionRed]

kill them before they kill us, kill them all.

How do we do that?

[DemolitionRed]

We could send corbyn for face to face negotiations.

Understanding what it’s all about is itself significant.

[DemolitionRed]

Yes this seems to be the standard response. "Duuuh bomb dem and dey will nart be ables to do a terrorist to us!".

But even if you put all morals aside and agree to wipe out the entire population of "maybe terror folks" - it is logistically impossible to actually do it. The more bombs you drop, the more terror attacks there will be. Simple as that. So really what it comes down to is this: people are angry and incredulous that innocent people are the victims of terror attacks. And rightly so. But is indignation and foot stomping, even if it's justified, WORTH IT if the end result is actually more deaths of innocents rather than less?

Striking back in anger (back at who, anyway? Drop bombs where?) is never going to be the answer to this no matter how tempting an option it might seem. When people start getting their heads around that, we might actually stand some sort of chance in making some progress. Until then, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Every angry voice advocating further and more aggressive military action is contributing to future deaths in our own country. That might sound harsh but it's the absolute truth.

I agree with all of this. 'Anger' is one letter short of 'danger', it solves nothing and destroys everything.

[Jack_]

We need to stop getting involved in middle eastern wars for a start.

Yep. Not enough people understand this. I have to be very careful about how I word this, particularly on a day like today, but when people see US, British and other European forces destroy their civilisation and maim their communities, it's inevitable that some are going to seek vengeance.

It's not just that though. Succumbing to the fear and division that these people intend to cause - by scapegoating an entire religion - actually makes the problem worse. The goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to prove to westernised, integrated Muslims that they are hated. That they have no place here, and that they must rise up and fight the infidels. This is actually documented. It's also how radicalisation works, and how it begins. And by pandering to the wishes of terrorists, you are exacerbating the problem. In fact, you are the problem. So stop.

[reece(:]

Is there anyway to remove sales of the materials used in constructing these deadly bombs?

[Jack_]

Oh, yeah, that's another thing. If our government could stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia that'd be great.

[DemolitionRed]

One should be very careful who they choose as military partners http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2350-america-dropped-26-171-bombs-in-2016-what-a-bloody-end-to-obama-s-reign. “For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind …” (Hosea, 8-7).

[MTVN]

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

[jaxie]

To begin with I think we have to look towards religious schools. If you allow children to be segregated at school and they are segregated into religious communities at home which often happens. How do they come to know children who aren't of their religion and make friends? For any multi cultural society to work there has to be integration rather than segregation.

Also language make sure that everyone in the family can speak the language of the country they are living in. For their own sake and so that they can communicate with others and are not isolated.

Stronger reaction where extremist tendencies are flagged, including looking at family and what they are teaching their young people. More focus on the equality of women and girls through social work and counselling.

[DemolitionRed]

Germany has been involved in the Syrian civil war since Dec 2015 and a large number of Swedish citizens are fighting for terrorist organizations in Syria.

If the attacks are happening because they are opposed to what we are, why didn't it happen sooner?

[MTVN]

Germany has been involved in the Syrian civil war since Dec 2015 and a large number of Swedish citizens are fighting for terrorist organizations in Syria.

If the attacks are happening because they are opposed to what we are, why didn't it happen sooner?

The threat has been there for decades. The difference now is that instability in the Middle East - which is not all our fault, there are huge internal issues in many Middle Eastern countries - has allowed extremism to prosper and have a base that it didn't before. That in turn has given it greater reach along with the new use of social media and the internet to spread their propaganda and recruit new followers etc.

[Kizzy]

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

And how 'ridiculously reductionist' is suggesting we are targets because we are from the western hemisphere of the globe?...

[the truth]

You start by eliminating political correctness

ONLY then can you start to deal with this mega monstrosity where 35000+ and rising innocents are killed worldwide every year and 100s of thousands are injured for life

[the truth]

Yep. Not enough people understand this. I have to be very careful about how I word this, particularly on a day like today, but when people see US, British and other European forces destroy their civilisation and maim their communities, it's inevitable that some are going to seek vengeance.

It's not just that though. Succumbing to the fear and division that these people intend to cause - by scapegoating an entire religion - actually makes the problem worse. The goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to prove to westernised, integrated Muslims that they are hated. That they have no place here, and that they must rise up and fight the infidels. This is actually documented. It's also how radicalisation works, and how it begins. And by pandering to the wishes of terrorists, you are exacerbating the problem. In fact, you are the problem. So stop.

youre making it worse by accusing people of racism. No one on here has said its all muslims, so why do you constantly make up that lie

[MTVN]

And how 'ridiculously reductionist' is suggesting we are targets because we are from the western hemisphere of the globe?...

I'd say that's obvious

Not that I am saying we are uniquely targeted in the West, a lot of Islamist extremists have just as much hatred for the way of life in many Muslim countries if they don't conform to the their narrow view of Islam

[Jack_]

youre making it worse by accusing people of racism. No one on here has said its all muslims, so why do you constantly make up that lie

Where have I accused anyone of racism in that post?

Where have I constantly 'made up that lie'?

Can you point me in the direction of these posts? Evidence your unsubstantiated claims? Because I said nothing of the sort.

[Kizzy]

The threat has been there for decades. The difference now is that instability in the Middle East - which is not all our fault, there are huge internal issues in many Middle Eastern countries - has allowed extremism to prosper and have a base that it didn't before. That in turn has given it greater reach along with the new use of social media and the internet to spread their propaganda and recruit new followers etc.

No, sorry I don't subscribe to that 'It was like that when I got here'! approach.

[Kizzy]

I'd say that's obvious

Not that I am saying we are uniquely targeted in the West, a lot of Islamist extremists have just as much hatred for the way of life in many Muslim countries if they don't conform to the their narrow view of Islam

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

[the truth]

Yep. Not enough people understand this. I have to be very careful about how I word this, particularly on a day like today, but when people see US, British and other European forces destroy their civilisation and maim their communities, it's inevitable that some are going to seek vengeance.

It's not just that though. Succumbing to the fear and division that these people intend to cause - by scapegoating an entire religion - actually makes the problem worse. The goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to prove to westernised, integrated Muslims that they are hated. That they have no place here, and that they must rise up and fight the infidels. This is actually documented. It's also how radicalisation works, and how it begins. And by pandering to the wishes of terrorists, you are exacerbating the problem. In fact, you are the problem. So stop.

no one here or anywhere else is scapegoating an entire religion, apart from the jihadis mass murdering terrorists. I suggest you vent your criticism at them and those who arm and inspire them

[the truth]

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

[Scarlett.]

You start by eliminating political correctness



Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

[the truth]

Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

[DemolitionRed]

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

Tonight I read an interesting blog from a green party member on a political site. I contemplated posting it here but feared the backlash because what he said, would not be considered politically correct. Fortunately, not all forums are as reactionary as they are here. This is an incredibly PC site and yet look at us... we are still here!!

[MTVN]

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

[Northern Monkey]

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

[DemolitionRed]

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

The target, a pop concert, is a strange target. If you wanted to make a political statement you could go outside the houses of parliament.

On the other hand, the collective West are blowing up innocents and yes, that includes children, in the middle east. We are seen in Syria as invaders... we are invaders.

[Northern Monkey]

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

According to Sadiq Khan yes

[DemolitionRed]

Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

[Northern Monkey]

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

[MTVN]

The target, a pop concert, is a strange target. If you wanted to make a political statement you could go outside the houses of parliament.

On the other hand, the collective West are blowing up innocents and yes, that includes children, in the middle east. We are seen in Syria as invaders... we are invaders.

Hence why it is not purely political, it is an attack on the Western way of life. Same reason the Bataclan was attacked.

Who in Syria sees us as invaders? Assad supporters? His opponents? Isis? All of them? The country is in the midst of a bloody civil war and has fractured into hundreds of competing militias, tribes, gangs, whatever you want to call them. It's very hard to see how we could improve the situation there. We intervene and we're invaders, we do nothing and we're accused of allowing innocents to die in chemical attacks.

[the truth]

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

yet so many millions of liberals cannot see this simple truth? what will it take for them to ever see the actual truth ?

[Kizzy]

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

They stated it direct to camera, that was their motivation.. but you know better.

The target is something we hold dear, our children... What would be the point of targeting something we didn't care about? That wouldn't illicit much of a response would it?

[Northern Monkey]

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

So doing nothing is an option in your opinion?
Letting IS take over country after country transforming them into Islamic hell with no freedoms,where women are beaten and raped,gays thrown off roofs and all infidels brutally tortured,decapitated and murdered should be left undisturbed?
That's not a world i want to live in.When that Islamic state reached our borders and we lived under it that would be true hell.

[Denver]

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

[James]

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

[Kizzy]

Yeah destabilisation was a stellar idea, and nothing could ever go wrong and if it did it totally would not be anything to do with us.

[the truth]

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

[Denver]

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

The beliefs are very similar.

[Toy Soldier]

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

It's not about "blame", it's about recognizing the destructive cycle that feeds terrorism so that we might actually have a chance of making real changes that will make real differences. It's not "blaming ourselves" to try to see the objective mechanism that leads to extremism. It is the only practical solution and, conversely, it is getting defensive and refusing to look at the whole situation from other angles that distracts from that.

People are more concerned with "being outraged" - which is completely and utterly futile - than they are with finding real solutions that might actually lead to a safer future and save lives.

[the truth]

The beliefs are very similar.

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

[jaxie]

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

Well yes they were lying in their south London accents. You think the government drove them to slaughter an innocent man and stand there with blood on their hands? You think there is some excuse or justification for that?

[Denver]

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

[Glenn.]

What pisses me off with these attacks in the U.K is that mostly they are known to authorities, whether on terrorism or similar cases. Why aren't things done about that? Is it a 'Let's see how many people they kill before we do anything'

[Kizzy]

Well yes they were lying in their south London accents. You think the government drove them to slaughter an innocent man and stand there with blood on their hands? You think there is some excuse or justification for that?

Did I say there was? All I did was point out there is a direct quote from a terrorist citing govt policy as a driving force for his actions.

[James]

It's not about "blame", it's about recognizing the destructive cycle that feeds terrorism so that we might actually have a chance of making real changes that will make real differences. It's not "blaming ourselves" to try to see the objective mechanism that leads to extremism. It is the only practical solution and, conversely, it is getting defensive and refusing to look at the whole situation from other angles that distracts from that.

People are more concerned with "being outraged" - which is completely and utterly futile - than they are with finding real solutions that might actually lead to a safer future and save lives.

There's probably better words I could have used than 'blaming ourselves' but I can't think of them. It's a certain type of politics that gets held responsible here. Again it is all about our own politics, and the Middle East only usually gets reported if there is a Western angle to the story, so it can be easy to ignore in a kind of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."

One aspect of the Middle East that hasn't been mentioned in the cycle of destabalisation is the number of dictatorships that rule these countries, and the often-eventual internal reaction.

[Wizard.]

What pisses me off with these attacks in the U.K is that mostly they are known to authorities, whether on terrorism or similar cases. Why aren't things done about that? Is it a 'Let's see how many people they kill before we do anything'

I heard it can take 24 people to surveillance a suspect 24/7 but I don't care how much it costs security is paramount!

[Glenn.]

According to a newspaper article I just see on sky news, there are 3000 jihadis walking the streets of Britain. How? Why!?

[Greg!]

What I don't understand is how can someone who is a jihadi and on a watchlist, be able to purchase materials to make a bomb and not get caught?

[Jack_]

no one here or anywhere else is scapegoating an entire religion, apart from the jihadis mass murdering terrorists. I suggest you vent your criticism at them and those who arm and inspire them

Where in my post did I allege that anyone here was scapegoating an entire religion? I was making a general point that didn't pertain to any particular person.

And I have vented my criticism at those who arm them. See post #14.

[Brillopad]

To begin with I think we have to look towards religious schools. If you allow children to be segregated at school and they are segregated into religious communities at home which often happens. How do they come to know children who aren't of their religion and make friends? For any multi cultural society to work there has to be integration rather than segregation.

Also language make sure that everyone in the family can speak the language of the country they are living in. For their own sake and so that they can communicate with others and are not isolated.

Stronger reaction where extremist tendencies are flagged, including looking at family and what they are teaching their young people. More focus on the equality of women and girls through social work and counselling.

Well said!

[Greg!]

I agree with Jaxie, all religious schools need to be abolished.

[Glenn.]

By the sounds of it he was able to flit to and from Libya. Again why?

[Wizard.]

By the sounds of it he was able to flit to and from Libya. Again why?

Anyone travelling to Turkey or any of these countries should have a full background check cause it's obvious they are going to Syria but sadly it's too late and there are hundreds of trained Jihad living amongst us ready to attack.

[Brillopad]

According to a newspaper article I just see on sky news, there are 3000 jihadis walking the streets of Britain. How? Why!?

According to some news reports another 10,000 by the time we have taken in our quota or refugees. That figure will only ever increase.

[the truth]

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people
nope it doesnt, different chapters different characters throughout. Youre judging all the same and generalizing , exactly what you preach other people shouldnt do?

[the truth]

By the sounds of it he was able to flit to and from Libya. Again why?

and why is no one asking why?

[Marsh.]

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

Stop spreading these silly statements as though they're facts.

[Denver]

nope it doesnt, different chapters different characters throughout. Youre judging all the same and generalizing , exactly what you preach other people shouldnt do?

Stop spreading these silly statements as though they're facts.

Oh i forgot they didnt kill Jesus that was only in the Hollywood remake

[Glenn.]

I love it when Jesus comes back to life. So realistic

[Marsh.]

Oh i forgot they didnt kill Jesus that was only in the Hollywood remake

Yeah, look at the Bible glorifying the murder of Jesus and stating it is ok, and readers of this holy book go out and kill.

I suppose EastEnders condones murder for depicting it in their storylines?

You're being absurd.

[Denver]

The bible has rape, Torture and murder throughout

[Marsh.]

The bible has rape, Torture and murder throughout

Yes and condones and teaches it. Obviously.

Because that's the exact same thing.

[Denver]

So does the Quran

[Marsh.]

Your diatribe would be laughable if it weren't so ill-informed.

[Denver]

You should actually ask a muslim and they will tell you nowhere should you kill innocent people

[Denver]

The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

[Marsh.]

Are you just making random statements and hoping they will be relevant to the discussion?

You've gone from claiming religions teach murder, to defending them and providing extracts proving the opposite?

[Denver]

Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . .

[Denver]

Are you just making random statements and hoping they will be relevant to the discussion?

You may wanna hate all muslims and think they are tught to kill but you only have to read it up to see the truth

[Marsh.]

You may wanna hate all muslims and think they are tught to kill but you only have to read it up to see the truth

What are you even talking about, I haven't said any such thing. :umm2:

[Denver]

Well you basically said Muslims are for death and Christians are told it is wrong

[Marsh.]

Well you basically said Muslims are for death and Christians are told it is wrong

Find me this quote please. :umm2:

I responded to your assertions about the bible. Let's not twist things. You're being deliberately absurd.

[Denver]

Stop spreading these silly statements as though they're facts.

Yeah, look at the Bible glorifying the murder of Jesus and stating it is ok, and readers of this holy book go out and kill.

I suppose EastEnders condones murder for depicting it in their storylines?

You're being absurd.

Yes and condones and teaches it. Obviously.

Because that's the exact same thing.

Find me this quote please. :umm2:

All said when i was defending the Quran because it is not so different to the bible

[Marsh.]

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

^^^^

I responded to this. Nothing about the Quran or Muslims was even mentioned in any of my posts.

But, yeah, let's make things up and rant about them. :umm2:

[Denver]

All books of religion are very similar the only difference is the god

[Marsh.]

But, yes, the bible teaches murder using the murder of Jesus... the man responsible for that creation of that book to begin with. Just because.

[Denver]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6120373/Top-10-worst-Bible-passages.html

Now tell me the bible teaches good stuff

[Marsh.]

I don't wish to tell you anything.

But throwing up isolated quotes in the hopes of making a big huge point to incite hatred towards something despite evidence to the contrary is exactly what should be avoided.

[Beso]

Understanding what it’s all about is itself significant.

Well if anyone knows how a terrorists mind works its jeremy..at least we know if he does go it will be videod.

[Kazanne]

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

No it doesn't Adam.:nono:

[Beso]

We could try and stop muslim fathers offering up their children to be suicide bombers..

Get jeremy on this one. See if he can stopp the radicalization of children by their own fathers.

[DemolitionRed]

So doing nothing is an option in your opinion?

What is the solution? How can we possibly get ISIS around a table and talk? Most of us balk at that idea, and its hard to see how anything could be achieved even if we did, but if we don't, honestly, what is going to happen? If we don't change our strategy it will keep on and keep on and keep on happening and I, just like you, don't want to see more deaths.

I am simply saying, why are we talking like a broken record that keeps saying the same thing over and over again when this kind of thing keeps happening over and over again, without stopping to look at this seriously?

[DemolitionRed]

Well if anyone knows how a terrorists mind works its jeremy..at least we know if he does go it will be videod.

We can only do something about this if we know or understand how a killers mind works. Corbyn doesn't support terrorism as you appear to be suggesting here but I understand that comment to be your emotional reaction to something none of us really understand.

Trying to find answers in common was why I opened this discussion. How this will all end is one thing we all have a common concern over so lets talk about it and stop mud slinging because all that does is create further bad feeling.

[Beso]

We can only do something about this if we know or understand how a killers mind works. Corbyn doesn't support terrorism as you appear to be suggesting here but I understand that comment to be your emotional reaction to something none of us really understand.

Trying to find answers in common was why I opened this discussion. How this will all end is one thing we all have a common concern over so lets talk about it and stop mud slinging because all that does is create further bad feeling.

Is this the same mud you hurled at may in your original post?

[DemolitionRed]

There's probably better words I could have used than 'blaming ourselves' but I can't think of them. It's a certain type of politics that gets held responsible here. Again it is all about our own politics, and the Middle East only usually gets reported if there is a Western angle to the story, so it can be easy to ignore in a kind of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."

One aspect of the Middle East that hasn't been mentioned in the cycle of destabalisation is the number of dictatorships that rule these countries, and the often-eventual internal reaction.

Many of us in the west live in countries which couldn't wait to meddle in the middle east, the English for instance have been meddling in Iraq since before WWI. We remove tyrannical dictators and then celebrate, as if what, as if the country will now move to democratic elections and have Tory and Labour PM's to vote for!. Tyrannical leaders they may have been, but they kept stability in the middle east. Why is tyrannical rule in Saudi ok?

We have now peddled around removing them and leaving power vacuums everywhere into which ISIS and various terrorist groups have dived and now they are spreading westwards. Mostly uneducated, mostly mentally ill or unstable but they are still here, fighting what they believe to be a revolution against the enemy.

And the frightening thing is, we can't stop them. We can fill our streets with troops but we won't stop them. We can give more privacy away but we can't find them. Even if we give up everything in our paranoia, we can't stop this.

[Brillopad]

What is the solution? How can we possibly get ISIS around a table and talk? Most of us balk at that idea, and its hard to see how anything could be achieved even if we did, but if we don't, honestly, what is going to happen? If we don't change our strategy it will keep on and keep on and keep on happening and I, just like you, don't want to see more deaths.

I am simply saying, why are we talking like a broken record that keeps saying the same thing over and over again when this kind of thing keeps happening over and over again, without stopping to look at this seriously?

Because the political motivation behind a crime never justifies or legitimises it.

A heinous crime such as the mass murder of innocent people including children by terrorists is not something that can be discussed over tea and biscuits. How can any 'compromise' ever be made in terrorism. I think, apart from anything else, it gives out the wrong message and only encourages more such attacks - rather like paying a ransom does.

It gets them heard and rewards their actions.

[Brillopad]

Many of us in the west live in countries which couldn't wait to meddle in the middle east, the English for instance have been meddling in Iraq since before WWI. We remove tyrannical dictators and then celebrate, as if what, as if the country will now move to democratic elections and have Tory and Labour PM's to vote for!. Tyrannical leaders they may have been, but they kept stability in the middle east. Why is tyrannical rule in Saudi ok?

We have now peddled around removing them and leaving power vacuums everywhere into which ISIS and various terrorist groups have dived and now they are spreading westwards. Mostly uneducated, mostly mentally ill or unstable but they are still here, fighting what they believe to be a revolution against the enemy.

And the frightening thing is, we can't stop them. We can fill our streets with troops but we won't stop them. We can give more privacy away but we can't find them. Even if we give up everything in our paranoia, we can't stop this.

I know you will disagree on this but to me and many others the only way to protect ourselves in the future is to stop enabling future home grown terrorism by significantly reducing non-European immigration into the West.

If there is no other way, if these people can't be reasoned with, we have to take steps to protect ourselves and future generations.

[DemolitionRed]

Because the political motivation behind a crime never justifies or legitimises it.

A heinous crime such as the mass murder of innocent people including children by terrorists is not something that can be discussed over tea and biscuits. How can any 'compromise' ever be made in terrorism. I think, apart from anything else, it gives out the wrong message and only encourages more such attacks - rather like paying a ransom does.

It gets them heard and rewards their actions.

I get what you're saying. The IRA had a genuine grievance against the British government, the PLO had a genuine grievance against the Israeli's, and the Kurdish freedom fighters, how can we not be influenced by their cause, especially in Turkey. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. However, I make an exception for ISIS. Most of them are illiterate men and women who would have never made it in the normal sphere of things so they create their own alternative system. They are brutal to Muslims and non-Muslims alike and so I don't accept this as some moral war they are fighting for and so sitting around the table with 'them' is likely not a sollution.

The West though, can not deny having blood on its own hands. The only innocents in this are us and the people getting blown up in both Europe and the Middle East. Do we need to stop aimlessly killing and destroying? The IRA would have stopped if they got Northern Ireland back, the Kurds if they got a homeland, the PLO with proper settlements where Israelis don't live.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm going to be frank and some people won't like this but if we don't speak frankly, we stagnate and just go round in an endless circle. Let me just start by saying, I think a lot of these 'false flag' suggestions are bollocks. I know people can make a conspiracy out of anything. I remain open minded about the death of Princess Diana and the twin towers. I don't believe those who say they have proof that we never walked on the moon but I do believe Monroe's death was suspicious.

The day before this recent atrocity, a colleague at work suggested there would be a terrorist atrocity before June 8th. I asked why he believed this but he remained tight lipped. When this terrorist attack happened, all I could think about was this colleagues prediction. I asked him about it yesterday and he feels certain it was a government act.

Let me just say, I disagree with him. No government would stoop so low... would they?

His words opened my curiosity though and so last night, I decided to trawl through some political forums that are normally out of my league and see what members from parties other than the Tory party were talking about. It surprised me that people, were being so openly cynical about other possibilities. Was this ISIS or was it a well timed move by, not the government, but those funding the Tory party? The coffers from the middle east who are sending £hundreds of millions to the Tories, who in turn promises unprecedented government support for the fossil fuel industry.

Another thing I picked up on is, to say such things publicly is to be monsterized by the blowhard press. We're simply not allowed to talk about this and anyone who dares to pass comment, will be jumped upon and an apology demanded.

Why?
why can't we talk about these possibilities?

[smudgie]

All this false flag bull**** does is take away the blame from the real guilty perpetrators, they must be laughing their ruddy heads off at how they can blow innocents up and then the double whammy is the victims blame each other.

[Beso]

Oh yes a defo false flag..its not really the bomber on cctv..its boris dressed in red..all those witnesses who were standing by the bomber as he detonated but are lucky enough to be alive today, are mistaken..they did not see a religious nutter blow himself and many others up..no they are mistaken..it was a plant, someone willing to kill themselves so the tories can stay in power...

GET A GRIP YOU DAFT EEJITS.

[Kizzy]

I'm a cynical old git, and it's a wild conspiracy, but if I said I hadn't wondered that myself what your colleague suggested... I'd be lying.

When I saw that a member of the Labour party had mentioned that this was in some way beneficial for may ( in terms of media attention) it was leapt on, but she said what I suspect many were thinking.

The reaction has been phenomenal though, I was expecting something very different but the outpouring of support for all communities has done a lot to bolster my faith in this country I feel proud again of the response from the public that think is down to the new feeling sweeping the UK.

People no longer look to the establishment and the media to do the right thing, they know themselves what the right thing is.

[Brillopad]

I'm going to be frank and some people won't like this but if we don't speak frankly, we stagnate and just go round in an endless circle. Let me just start by saying, I think a lot of these 'false flag' suggestions are bollocks. I know people can make a conspiracy out of anything. I remain open minded about the death of Princess Diana and the twin towers. I don't believe those who say they have proof that we never walked on the moon but I do believe Monroe's death was suspicious.

The day before this recent atrocity, a colleague at work suggested there would be a terrorist atrocity before June 8th. I asked why he believed this but he remained tight lipped. When this terrorist attack happened, all I could think about was this colleagues prediction. I asked him about it yesterday and he feels certain it was a government act.

Let me just say, I disagree with him. No government would stoop so low... would they?

His words opened my curiosity though and so last night, I decided to trawl through some political forums that are normally out of my league and see what members from parties other than the Tory party were talking about. It surprised me that people, were being so openly cynical about other possibilities. Was this ISIS or was it a well timed move by, not the government, but those funding the Tory party? The coffers from the middle east who are sending £hundreds of millions to the Tories, who in turn promises unprecedented government support for the fossil fuel industry.

Another thing I picked up on is, to say such things publicly is to be monsterized by the blowhard press. We're simply not allowed to talk about this and anyone who dares to pass comment, will be jumped upon and an apology demanded.

Why?
why can't we talk about these possibilities?

That works both ways- political correctness of one sort or another.

[DemolitionRed]

All this false flag bull**** does is take away the blame from the real guilty perpetrators, they must be laughing their ruddy heads off at how they can blow innocents up and then the double whammy is the victims blame each other.

ISIS want the blame for this because it promotes their cause, whatever that is.
Should we allow them to celebrate our grief? Should we not be allowed to ask questions? Should we believe everything fed to us by the press? Should others be shut down from voicing their own concerns?

[smudgie]

ISIS want the blame for this because it promotes their cause, whatever that is.
Should we allow them to celebrate our grief? Should we not be allowed to ask questions? Should we believe everything fed to us by the press? Should others be shut down from voicing their own concerns?

So, ISIS want the blame, therefore we take the blame away from them....that is some screwed up logic.

[Beso]

We could ask why someone known to the security forces and known to have links with isis as well as regular travel to syria and lybia was left to do as he pleases on the streets of the uk.

[DemolitionRed]

So, ISIS want the blame, therefore we take the blame away from them....that is some screwed up logic.

ISIS jump on the back of every terrorist attack. That doesn't mean an ISIS member (as far as we know so far, the bomber was not a member of ISIS) is necessarily responsible for that attack, but they sure want the glory.

I've been saying for a while now, its not only ISIS that radicalise people. There are Muslims who hate ISIS and equally hate the West so just because ISIS always grab the headlines, doesn't make it truth.

[DemolitionRed]

We could ask why someone known to the security forces and known to have links with isis as well as regular travel to syria and lybia was left to do as he pleases on the streets of the uk.

He was probably friend of a friend who was an ISIS member.

[Kizzy]

That works both ways- political correctness of one sort or another.

Here we go with this term again, do you ever feel that this is a form of state sponsored radicalisation these blanket terms used for anyone who thinks differently to the 'bomb bomb bomb' rhetoric that is advocated with increasing regularity?

[Beso]

He was probably friend of a friend who was an ISIS member.

Oh yes, probably.

Sorry me bad for insunuating someone willing to blow up 8 yr old girls may be an isis member or have links to the orginisation...sorry.

[Denver]

He was probably friend of a friend who was an ISIS member.

They know he had links to Isis especially with him travelling to Libya then Syria

[Northern Monkey]

What is the solution? How can we possibly get ISIS around a table and talk? Most of us balk at that idea, and its hard to see how anything could be achieved even if we did, but if we don't, honestly, what is going to happen? If we don't change our strategy it will keep on and keep on and keep on happening and I, just like you, don't want to see more deaths.

I am simply saying, why are we talking like a broken record that keeps saying the same thing over and over again when this kind of thing keeps happening over and over again, without stopping to look at this seriously?

What could we possibly talk about?

They want the world to become an Islamic caliphate.They want us to drop our western values and convert to Islam.
There really is nothing to discuss.
This is going to carry on whatever we do.All we can do imo is up security and intelligence and stop IS's territory from growing.

[Kizzy]

ISIS jump on the back of every terrorist attack. That doesn't mean an ISIS member (as far as we know so far, the bomber was not a member of ISIS) is necessarily responsible for that attack, but they sure want the glory.

I've been saying for a while now, its not only ISIS that radicalise people. There are Muslims who hate ISIS and equally hate the West so just because ISIS always grab the headlines, doesn't make it truth.

I tried to suggest this yesterday withe the Lee Rigby killers example, they were political extremists, we are only given extremism in terms of religion or culture.

[DemolitionRed]

Oh yes, probably.

Sorry me bad for insunuating someone willing to blow up 8 yr old girls may be an isis member or have links to the orginisation...sorry.

Well as far as we know, he wasn't an ISIS member so what was he? why, you asked, didn't the authorities take more notice of him? why were they not alarmed enough to follow his footsteps 24/7. You are blaming the athorities, I am saying that they probably had very little on him other than him having some odd connection somewhere down the line.

What's the bolded part about. What does it even mean?

[Northern Monkey]

This guy apparently had connections to "The Libian Islamic Fighting Group" who are "connected to Didsbury mosque" and are a "hotbed for Islamic State".

All from the Daily Politics BBC2 today

[DemolitionRed]

This guy apparently had connections to "The Libian Islamic Fighting Group" who are "connected to Didsbury mosque" and are a "hotbed for Islamic State".

All from the Daily Politics BBC2 today

Ok, so we have all this information now? or before the atrocity?

If the Didsbury Mosque is a hotbed for IS, why aren't we closing it down?

[Beso]

Well as far as we know, he wasn't an ISIS member so what was he? why, you asked, didn't the authorities take more notice of him? why were they not alarmed enough to follow his footsteps 24/7. You are blaming the athorities, I am saying that they probably had very little on him other than him having some odd connection somewhere down the line.

What's the bolded part about. What does it even mean?

An odd connection..wtf..he had just come back from lybia and without doubt syria 2 days before the attack..he had preached hate towards the west, was known to the authorities and has links to isis...as well as what nm has just added..what more do you want demo? Do we need them to chop of some poor buggers head on video before we act?

[DemolitionRed]

I tried to suggest this yesterday withe the Lee Rigby killers example, they were political extremists, we are only given extremism in terms of religion or culture.

Yes, I saw that and you're right.

[Brillopad]

Here we go with this term again, do you ever feel that this is a form of state sponsored radicalisation these blanket terms used for anyone who thinks differently to the 'bomb bomb bomb' rhetoric that is advocated with increasing regularity?

State sponsored - nope.

[Northern Monkey]

Ok, so we have all this information now? or before the atrocity?

If the Didsbury Mosque is a hotbed for IS, why aren't we closing it down?

I think they meant that this group is a hotbed for IS.Not necessarily the mosque itself

[Northern Monkey]

Possibly could be a terror cell rather than just a lone wolf.
Devices like that apparently are not easy to make successfully.
He could've been mule.

[DemolitionRed]

An odd connection..wtf..he had just come back from lybia and without doubt syria 2 days before the attack..he had preached hate towards the west, was known to the authorities and has links to isis...as well as what nm has just added..what more do you want demo? Do we need them to chop of some poor buggers head on video before we act?

For a start, you are reading very different news to what I'm reading. I was aware he'd been to Syria but I've not read that he preached hate towards the West. I know he was known to the authorities, hence my questions.

As for your second comment. Your spitting out of control anger. I'll say again, if the authorities had all this information on him, why weren't they following him? why weren't they questioning him? Why weren't they able to stop this?

[DemolitionRed]

Possibly could be a terror cell rather than just a lone wolf.
Devices like that apparently are not easy to make successfully.
He could've been mule.

I think he was definitely a mule. There's more to this than some lone wolf making a complex explosive in his mums bathroom.

[smudgie]

This guy apparently had connections to "The Libian Islamic Fighting Group" who are "connected to Didsbury mosque" and are a "hotbed for Islamic State".

All from the Daily Politics BBC2 today

It's been mentioned that his father was affiliated with this group as well.:shrug:
Maybe that was the connection.

[Northern Monkey]

It's been mentioned that his father was affiliated with this group as well.:shrug:
Maybe that was the connection.

It's weird.Apparently his father went back to Libya before the regime change.Strange as this group were anti Gadaffi.Makes no sense he would go back while Gadaffi was still in power.

[Beso]

For a start, you are reading very different news to what I'm reading. I was aware he'd been to Syria but I've not read that he preached hate towards the West. I know he was known to the authorities, hence my questions.

As for your second comment. Your spitting out of control anger. I'll say again, if the authorities had all this information on him, why weren't they following him? why weren't they questioning him? Why weren't they able to stop this?

Check out his video on this thread to see him spouting hate..and in answer to your question on why the authorities wernt watching him, well thats simple.

Liberal lefty do gooders spouting human rights and racism claims time and time again have made the government wary. Perhaps the labour government of the 90s and noughties have set a president of looking the other way or sweeping stuff under the carpet for fear of the public backlashes.

[DemolitionRed]

Check out his video on this thread to see him spouting hate..and in answer to your question on why the authorities wernt watching him, well thats simple.

Liberal lefty do gooders spouting human rights and racism claims time and time again have made the government wary. Perhaps the labour government of the 90s and noughties have set a president of looking the other way or sweeping stuff under the carpet for fear of the public backlashes.

That's right, swing it back to the left. I thought that's where your anger was taking you :hee:

[Brillopad]

Ok, so we have all this information now? or before the atrocity?

If the Didsbury Mosque is a hotbed for IS, why aren't we closing it down?

His older brother had been a tutor of the Koran at that mosque and his parents were Libyan refugees.

[Northern Monkey]

What's even more worrying is that the DP just said there are about 350 Islamic fighters back from IS areas back in the Manchester area who have already been radicalised.That's just fecking scary.

[Nicky91]

What's even more worrying is that the DP just said there are about 350 Islamic fighters back from IS areas back in the Manchester area who have already been radicalised.That's just fecking scary.

350, wow that is scaring me big time :worry:


i think the best advice for the people now is try and stay safe and be very careful :)

[Northern Monkey]

350, wow that is scaring me big time :worry:


i think the best advice for the people now is try and stay safe and be very careful :)

It didn't say this but it's guaranteed that these fighters are under heavy surveillance.I don't think they'll be able to get up to much.

[*mazedsalv**]

You can't.

There's way too many people in this world who does not think in the way most do. Even a tiny minority of 0.01% being evil, that is still a lot of evil.

It's like saying "how do we stop murder?", you can't. It's impossible. You can only slightly decrease it and cut off sources providing the cause, But even if in one time in the foreseeable future, there is a time where no terrorists or murder takes place for a day, the next day will be the same.

We will never have a day in our lives or ever in the future where at least 1 innocent person won't die (natural causes aside).

[Nicky91]

It didn't say this but it's guaranteed that these fighters are under heavy surveillance.I don't think they'll be able to get up to much.

okay, we must be careful anyway but maybe you're right

but what notices me is that some of the ISIS terrorists are all quite young, maybe they were better to be brainwashed by ISIS


i don't which one is worse Al Qaeda or ISIS, i think both are equally bad :mad:

[*mazedsalv**]

I watched This Morning and a very fair point was made.

The increase of police will not do much, but I think the fact that army is getting involved and patrolling can make a slight difference. The woman said that these people have faced people like this before. They recognise weird body language, they are aware of behaviour and certain looks of people before they strike etc...

I agree with this. A lot of police haven't dealt with terrorism, but soldiers have.

[Tozzie]

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

what bible have you been reading?

[Beso]

That's right, swing it back to the left. I thought that's where your anger was taking you :hee:

Oh give over...you asked my opinuon and you bloody got it...truth hurts.

[Denver]

what bible have you been reading?

They have murder all throughout the bible

[Kizzy]

Check out his video on this thread to see him spouting hate..and in answer to your question on why the authorities wernt watching him, well thats simple.

Liberal lefty do gooders spouting human rights and racism claims time and time again have made the government wary. Perhaps the labour government of the 90s and noughties have set a president of looking the other way or sweeping stuff under the carpet for fear of the public backlashes.

Rubbish the Labour govt brought in the PREVENT strategy that focused on vigilance in communities for signs of radicalisation. It was the tories that scaled back funding leading to condemnation before realising they were wrong to do this .

[Brillopad]

Rubbish the Labour govt brought in the PREVENT strategy that focused on vigilance in communities for signs of radicalisation. It was the tories that scaled back funding leading to condemnation before realising they were wrong to do this .

Oh come on vigilance in communities - meaning what, that we are reliant on other members of that community to be vigilant and report any concerns - bit wishy washy don't you think, hardly reliable, preventative policy.

Tories probably thought it a waste of time and money. Where is the evidence they realised they were wrong to do so - it makes little sense.

[jaxie]

They said on Sky News today that the guy who was apparently the suicide bomber came from a family with strong past links to Islamic militance and Al Queda. They had supposedly rejected these connections. Apparently not. That does make it fairly obvious that this kind of action has been nurtured from a set of beliefs within the family surely.

It does make you wonder why this country has been allowing in people with such links.

And all the left and right wing blame and finger pointing on this thread makes me wonder if that's why we're in this mess. Maybe if people worked together more it would help.

[Beso]

Rubbish the Labour govt brought in the PREVENT strategy that focused on vigilance in communities for signs of radicalisation. It was the tories that scaled back funding leading to condemnation before realising they were wrong to do this .

No point in being vigilant in the community if your local labour run council ignores your concerns of rape and grooming..why would they be any different if you were reporting radicalization.

[Brillopad]

They said on Sky News today that the guy who was apparently the suicide bomber came from a family with strong past links to Islamic militance and Al Queda. They had supposedly rejected these connections. Apparently not. That does make it fairly obvious that this kind of action has been nurtured from a set of beliefs within the family surely.

It does make you wonder why this country has been allowing in people with such links.

And all the left and right wing blame and finger pointing on this thread makes me wonder if that's why we're in this mess. Maybe if people worked together more it would help.

And the parents buggerd off back to Libya in 2011 leaving us with their Jihadist offspring

[Kizzy]

Oh come on vigilance in communities - meaning what, that we are reliant on other members of that community to be vigilant and report any concerns - bit wishy washy don't you think, hardly reliable, preventative policy.

Tories probably thought it a waste of time and money. Where is the evidence they realised they were wrong to do so - it makes little sense.

How else are you to prevent radicalisation?...

[Tom4784]

It's not something that can be fought. There isn't really a way to prevent a disturbed person from getting into a car and running people down on the pavement or crafting a bomb from every day items.

You can't fight an ideal.

I agree with the general opinion that we must stop arming the Middle East and cease all military actions there, it won't fix the problem but doing that would prevent escalating it further.

[Tom4784]

what bible have you been reading?

I'd assume the Old Testament when God's all fire and brimstone rather than hugs and kisses.

[Brillopad]

How else are you to prevent radicalisation?...

In the West, the answer is obvious. I certainly don't believe we can simply hope for the best - that simply isn't good enough. The aim of any government should be to protect its citizens - not inflict policies that have the opposite effect.

[AnnieK]

It's not something that can be fought. There isn't really a way to prevent a disturbed person from getting into a car and running people down on the pavement or crafting a bomb from every day items.

You can't fight an ideal.

I agree with the general opinion that we must stop arming the Middle East and cease all military actions there, it won't fix the problem but doing that would prevent escalating it further.

Finally a post I can agree with. Atrocities will happen regardless of who is in Government in my opinion, it will never be completely eradicated. If we stop any military action in the Middle East, whose to say those groups over there who agree with our invention then won't rise up to punish us for deserting them? Maybe if we hadn't got involved in the first place things would be different but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don't know what the answer is, I don't think it is a question with a possible right answer.

[Mystic Mock]

To prevent ourselves from becoming a target we shouldn't go to their countries and try to force them to change their ways, because then they're coming over to the UK, France, or whatever country you can think of that tries to force them to change their ways and these terrorist groups bomb the **** out of the country because they are getting angry about my point above.

The best thing to do now though would be for May to enter negotiations with ISIS and hope that the same thing happens there as what happened with the IRA.

[Beso]

How else are you to prevent radicalisation?...

You could start by having police officers present in mosques during opening hours.

You could go undercover as an impressionable stooge.

You could round up anyone preaching hate...you could get socual services more involved in the homes of kids showing signs of it at school....admittedly a lot of this would need the help of some vigilant members of the muslim communities so probably would fall flat on its face at the first hurdle.

[Brillopad]

Finally a post I can agree with. Atrocities will happen regardless of who is in Government in my opinion, it will never be completely eradicated. If we stop any military action in the Middle East, whose to say those groups over there who agree with our invention then won't rise up to punish us for deserting them? Maybe if we hadn't got involved in the first place things would be different but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don't know what the answer is, I don't think it is a question with a possible right answer.

If memory serves me well weren't those groups being targeted and terrorised but other groups and called for assistance from the West. If so, should we have abandoned them and left them at the mercy of the others.

[Kazanne]

To prevent ourselves from becoming a target we shouldn't go to their countries and try to force them to change their ways, because then they're coming over to the UK, France, or whatever country you can think of that tries to force them to change their ways and these terrorist groups bomb the **** out of the country because they are getting angry about my point above.

The best thing to do now though would be for May to enter negotiations with ISIS and hope that the same thing happens there as what happened with the IRA.

Sorry Mock but the irony of that bolded part.

[Mystic Mock]

Sorry Mock but the irony of that bolded part.

But they shouldn't be trying to change our ways either.

The best outcome would be for both sides to accept that we're very different culturally and somehow come to a compromise.

I've got to be honest though if I was in a room with one of these ISIS members I would be really tempted to kill them, but I always like to go with what's best for the people and the country, and carrying on the fight is just gonna breed more hatred from ISIS to attack us more.

[Northern Monkey]

To prevent ourselves from becoming a target we shouldn't go to their countries and try to force them to change their ways, because then they're coming over to the UK, France, or whatever country you can think of that tries to force them to change their ways and these terrorist groups bomb the **** out of the country because they are getting angry about my point above.

The best thing to do now though would be for May to enter negotiations with ISIS and hope that the same thing happens there as what happened with the IRA.:joker:

"negotiations with ISIS"

They want us become part of their Islamic state.They want the world to convert to Islam and for the ISIS flag to be flying over Westminster.

WTF are you going to offer them?

[Northern Monkey]

So say we pulled out of Iraq and Syria.Then say France pulls out,The the US pulls out and Russia pulls out.
This Islamic State will just keep growing and growing and becoming more powerful with more resources,money and technology.
Then we still have to go back and deal with it and it is ten times harder.Letting this fester and grow would be the worst thing the west could do.They would have drawn their own borders and created a caliphate the size of a country.

[smudgie]

Seeing as how so many people have to be kept under surveillance etc, perhaps it is time for families to take account.
Deport the whole family back to country of origin if the parents are from a foreign country, maybe it will help.
We obviously can't do it with bullets, we can't do it with negotiations, so we are only left with defending ourselves from the radicals/ terrorists.
Obviously law abiding none murdering scum are welcome.

[Brillopad]

Seeing as how so many people have to be kept under surveillance etc, perhaps it is time for families to take account.
Deport the whole family back to country of origin if the parents are from a foreign country, maybe it will help.
We obviously can't do it with bullets, we can't do it with negotiations, so we are only left with defending ourselves from the radicals/ terrorists.
Obviously law abiding none murdering scum are welcome.

Couldn't agree more smudgie!

[jaxie]

What is the solution? How can we possibly get ISIS around a table and talk? Most of us balk at that idea, and its hard to see how anything could be achieved even if we did, but if we don't, honestly, what is going to happen? If we don't change our strategy it will keep on and keep on and keep on happening and I, just like you, don't want to see more deaths.

I am simply saying, why are we talking like a broken record that keeps saying the same thing over and over again when this kind of thing keeps happening over and over again, without stopping to look at this seriously?

How can you have a chat with someone who doesn't respect your way of life and would prefer to see us all dead. Talking to Daesh is simply not a feasible option.

[the truth]

how on earth havent we tightened our borders decades ago? how has europe still got all open unchecked borders across 30 odd nations? its absolute insanity.

[Kazanne]

You can't 'talk' to these people they get no virgins for that,they have the mindset their way is right,their religion is right and their culture is right,there is no inbetween with them, maybe if Tony Blair hadn't have taken us into a war the wasn't needed things would be different I don't know,but they way we have handled things has left us in some deep ****.

[Kazanne]

how on earth havent we tightened our borders decades ago? how has europe still got all open unchecked borders across 30 odd nations? its absolute insanity.

Because we cant be seen to be 'racist' can we? Nothing to do with wanting the best for our citizens by sifting the bad seeds out,we just have to be 'nice,polite and politically correct.

[jaxie]

By the sounds of it he was able to flit to and from Libya. Again why?

I have to agree with you Glenn, why isn't this being flagged when someone who is known is travelling to places where there are centres of radicalisation.

I mentioned the other day that a member of my family is in a relationship with someone from a non EU country. They met at work on a job where they are travelling and make short stops, including to the UK. She was going to come for a visit at the end of her last contract and stay with our family but the Visa was refused because she works on contracts and couldn't prove she had a job to go back to, employers are arseholes who won't give a letter explaining even though she's worked there for five years.

She went back to work and was due a stop over to the UK. Was called to an office and grilled by immigration because of the previously refused holiday visa. They gave her a passport stamp after saying she was ok to enter the UK for her stopover, then grilled her for an hour for a second stopover a few days later. She is from an Asian country.

If immigration can harrass a nice young girl like this who has a clean record and just wants to spend time with her boyfriend, why are people they know might be dodgy waltzing in and out of Syria, Libya and Iraq?

[jaxie]

I'm going to be frank and some people won't like this but if we don't speak frankly, we stagnate and just go round in an endless circle. Let me just start by saying, I think a lot of these 'false flag' suggestions are bollocks. I know people can make a conspiracy out of anything. I remain open minded about the death of Princess Diana and the twin towers. I don't believe those who say they have proof that we never walked on the moon but I do believe Monroe's death was suspicious.

The day before this recent atrocity, a colleague at work suggested there would be a terrorist atrocity before June 8th. I asked why he believed this but he remained tight lipped. When this terrorist attack happened, all I could think about was this colleagues prediction. I asked him about it yesterday and he feels certain it was a government act.

Let me just say, I disagree with him. No government would stoop so low... would they?

His words opened my curiosity though and so last night, I decided to trawl through some political forums that are normally out of my league and see what members from parties other than the Tory party were talking about. It surprised me that people, were being so openly cynical about other possibilities. Was this ISIS or was it a well timed move by, not the government, but those funding the Tory party? The coffers from the middle east who are sending £hundreds of millions to the Tories, who in turn promises unprecedented government support for the fossil fuel industry.

Another thing I picked up on is, to say such things publicly is to be monsterized by the blowhard press. We're simply not allowed to talk about this and anyone who dares to pass comment, will be jumped upon and an apology demanded.

Why?
why can't we talk about these possibilities?

I think that is a vile conspiracy theory that shouldn't even be given breath time and throwing it around is little more than enabling terrorists. It's one thing to dislike a different branch of politics but quite another form of madness to accuse them of genocide to win an election.

[Withano]

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/24/ex-ukip-mep-calls-for-death-penalty-for-suicide-bombers-6658334/

Ex-Ukip MEP calls suggests the death penalty for suicide bombers :think:

[smudgie]

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/24/ex-ukip-mep-calls-for-death-penalty-for-suicide-bombers-6658334/

Ex-Ukip MEP calls suggests the death penalty for suicide bombers :think:

Hmmmmmm, is that after they have been scraped up.
Perhaps bringing the death penalty back for all treasonable offences might work better.
To think it was still on the law books until 1988 .

[Mystic Mock]

I think that is a vile conspiracy theory that shouldn't even be given breath time and throwing it around is little more than enabling terrorists. It's one thing to dislike a different branch of politics but quite another form of madness to accuse them of genocide to win an election.

I'm not sure if May was involved as there is no evidence to suggest that she was, but is it a coincidence that the terrorist attack happened not long after the Tories manifesto was released and that the lead was starting to get slimmer and slimmer? Maybe or maybe not.

[RichardG]

I think that is a vile conspiracy theory that shouldn't even be given breath time and throwing it around is little more than enabling terrorists. It's one thing to dislike a different branch of politics but quite another form of madness to accuse them of genocide to win an election.

this

not one person in government, or funding the government, or anyone with any interest in the government was involved in this. it was the usual terrorist scum, and the only relation to the upcoming election could be if they wanted to disrupt it in any way by timing the attack just before it.

if anything i think it's kind of disrespectful to the victims to be turning this into a ridiculous political conspiracy theory.

[jaxie]

I'm not sure if May was involved as there is no evidence to suggest that she was, but is it a coincidence that the terrorist attack happened not long after the Tories manifesto was released and that the lead was starting to get slimmer and slimmer? Maybe or maybe not.

Yes a complete coincidence. Don't be ridiculous and stop disrespecting the dead.

[Mystic Mock]

this

not one person in government, or funding the government, or anyone with any interest in the government was involved in this. it was the usual terrorist scum, and the only relation to the upcoming election could be if they wanted to disrupt it in any way by timing the attack just before it.

if anything i think it's kind of disrespectful to the victims to be turning this into a ridiculous political conspiracy theory.

BIB, tbf I'd like to think that people would be suspicious at any party that was losing their lead in the Election and then a terrorist attack happened that killed loads of children happened not long afterwards that 99.99% ensures their victory at the Election as people don't want change in a crisis like this.

May is very likely to be innocent tbf, but it's always good to question and look at the convenient timing of the attack.

[Mystic Mock]

Yes a complete coincidence. Don't be ridiculous and stop disrespecting the dead.

How is it ridiculous and disrespecting the dead for pointing out that there could be more to it?:conf:

[jaxie]

How is it ridiculous and disrespecting the dead for pointing out that there could be more to it?:conf:

If you think about it, you'll get there eventually.

[Mystic Mock]

If you think about it, you'll get there eventually.

If you think about it you'll realise that you're going overly sensitive about something that is marginally possible.

I'm not even saying that May was involved in the terror attack, because the terrorist would be very likely to grass her up as they'd have nothing to lose, I'm just pointing out though that the timing is convenient and I can understand why people would be suspicious, and if you take away the emotional element out of it and think about it more clinically for a second you would notice it too.

[RichardG]

BIB, tbf I'd like to think that people would be suspicious at any party that was losing their lead in the Election and then a terrorist attack happened that killed loads of children happened not long afterwards that 99.99% ensures their victory at the Election as people don't want change in a crisis like this.

May is very likely to be innocent tbf, but it's always good to question and look at the convenient timing of the attack.

we are not living in 1930s soviet russia, we do not assassinate people before elections to get our own way.

[jaxie]

we are not living in 1930s soviet russia, we do not assassinate people before elections to get our own way.

Not to mention all the people in the know who would have to be kept quiet and how you'd pay someone to kill themselves. It's the most ridiculous and disrespectful thing I've heard in days I don't know what's wrong with people to say such a thing. :shrug:

[Mystic Mock]

we are not living in 1930s soviet russia, we do not assassinate people before elections to get our own way.

I said that it's not likely, but it's not impossible either, I wish I could say that but the evidence just doesn't rule it out entirely.

My own personal opinion though is that I put faith that our leaders wouldn't do such a thing, maybe I'm being too naive I don't know, but even May wouldn't risk crossing that line in case she was to get caught.

[Mystic Mock]

Not to mention all the people in the know who would have to be kept quiet and how you'd pay someone to kill themselves. It's the most ridiculous and disrespectful thing I've heard in days I don't know what's wrong with people to say such a thing. :shrug:

So you'd rather people lie and say that it's impossible for the Government that was losing momentum in all of the polls to have setup something that secures their Election? As I said I don't think that May or the Tories would risk something like that, but how is it impossible or in poor taste for people to see it differently? It would be like saying that people who suspect that the Royal Family tookout Princess Diana is disrespectful even though there is really strong evidence to suggest otherwise in their case.

[VanessaFeltz.]

stop selling guns

[Kazanne]

I'm not sure if May was involved as there is no evidence to suggest that she was, but is it a coincidence that the terrorist attack happened not long after the Tories manifesto was released and that the lead was starting to get slimmer and slimmer? Maybe or maybe not.

I'm shocked if anyone gives this theory or idea creedence tbh.:shocked:

[smudgie]

I'm shocked if anyone gives this theory or idea creedence tbh.:shocked:

:joker::joker: you couldn't make it up...oh, hang on.:laugh::laugh:

[Brillopad]

I'm shocked if anyone gives this theory or idea creedence tbh.:shocked:

Unfortunately I'm not - not from my experience on here. There are conspiracy theories and there are conspiracy theories - but this one is off the scale. :bawling:

[AnnieK]

There are theories swirling about that it was in retaliation to the Three Girls programme being aired. It's all bollocks....The people who did this are savages. ...no motive will ever justify their actions as far as I am concerned. Don't care what religion, nationality etc they are...its irrelevant. What's relevant is the people whose lives have changed irrevocably

[Kazanne]

There are theories swirling about that it was in retaliation to the Three Girls programme being aired. It's all bollocks....The people who did this are savages. ...no motive will ever justify their actions as far as I am concerned. Don't care what religion, nationality etc they are...its irrelevant. What's relevant is the people whose lives have changed irrevocably

100% agree Annie

[Mystic Mock]

I'm shocked if anyone gives this theory or idea creedence tbh.:shocked:

As I've already said I honestly don't think that May would do it as it's very risky and I also don't think that she'd be so pure evil to go after innocent children who have no opinions on Politics.

But I can understand the theory, it's just I'm not sure if I agree with it.

[Kazanne]

As I've already said I honestly don't think that May would do it as it's very risky and I also don't think that she'd be so pure evil to go after innocent children who have no opinions on Politics.

But I can understand the theory, it's just I'm not sure if I agree with it.

No Mocky don't agree with it,I know people don't like her but this is a step to far,no one is to blame just the scumbags who organised it and carried it out,I would bet my life she was not behind it,whoever is feeding you stuff like that is way off imo.:wavey:

[AnnieK]

Ffs the people who come up with these theories to fit their own agenda are only a step down that than ****ers who carries them out. There are families who have lost their babies....hearing people saying it's for political gain is just twisting the knife

[Mystic Mock]

No Mocky don't agree with it,I know people don't like her but this is a step to far,no one is to blame just the scumbags who organised it and carried it out,I would bet my life she was not behind it,whoever is feeding you stuff like that is way off imo.:wavey:

I don't agree with it, it's just ashame for May that the timing of it does look suspicious.

I do agree with you though that I don't think that May would do such a thing as that's a low blow even for the Tory party itself.

[hijaxers]

Well first and foremost ! it might help if police and security listened to neighbours and family - this bombing could have been prevented ! Yet again the police have egg on their faces and so does Mrs May .

[Mystic Mock]

The Police can't really do much if the Government isn't willing to help them.

[Kazanne]

I don't agree with it, it's just ashame for May that the timing of it does look suspicious.

I do agree with you though that I don't think that May would do such a thing as that's a low blow even for the Tory party itself.

None of them would Mocky,it's no good playing the blame game,there is only one to blame and he is dead.

[Mystic Mock]

None of them would Mocky,it's no good playing the blame game,there is only one to blame and he is dead.

Oh even if May is involved (which I'm not saying that she is) I still think that the person that does the action is worse.

[Northern Monkey]

None of them would Mocky,it's no good playing the blame game,there is only one to blame and he is dead.

Actually six have been arrested now I believe.So seven to blame.

[Kazanne]

Actually six have been arrested now I believe.So seven to blame.

Blimey it gets worse,bastards

[Marsh.]

The best outcome would be for both sides to accept that we're very different culturally and somehow come to a compromise.


Obviously.

But in the real world, that's never going to happen.

[Marsh.]

The best thing to do now though would be for May to enter negotiations with ISIS and hope that the same thing happens there as what happened with the IRA.

I'm not sure if May was involved as there is no evidence to suggest that she was, but is it a coincidence that the terrorist attack happened not long after the Tories manifesto was released and that the lead was starting to get slimmer and slimmer? Maybe or maybe not.

:unsure:

[Withano]

I don't want to encourage the conspiracy theory discussion, but surely for as many labour voters turning tory, there would be tory voters turning ukip, its a bizarre theory that doesn't benefit anybody


Annoyingly I saw a picture on Facebook today, but I cant remember who shared it. The picture listed tens of terror attacks that have happened on the 22nd, and provided convincing logic why terrorists might be drawn to the number..

I suppose thats probably an unhelpful conspiracy theory too, but it did kinda shock me at the time

[AnnieK]

I don't want to encourage the conspiracy theory discussion, but surely for as many labour voters turning tory, there would be tory voters turning ukip


Annoyingly I saw a pocture on Facebook today, but I cant remember who shared it. The picture listed tens of terror attacks that have happened on the 22nd, and provided convincing logic why terrorists might be drawn to the number..

I suppose thats probably an unhelpful conspiracy theory too, but it did kinda shock me at the time

Yeah I saw that.post too....although I remember a similar one at 9/11 when significant dates all were able to be brought back to 9/11 although the 22nd link is a little.more tenable

[Withano]

Yeah I saw that.post too....although I remember a similar one at 9/11 when significant dates all were able to be brought back to 9/11 although the 22nd link is a little.more tenable

Yeah, I suppose you could probably make a similar image with any chosen date if you wanted to

[the truth]

The Police can't really do much if the Government isn't willing to help them.

the police are useless, they have no relationship with the community thats why theyre so ineffective

[Mystic Mock]

the police are useless, they have no relationship with the community thats why theyre so ineffective

The Police hardly have any funding, if you want The Police to be more effective against these bastards then Tories and Labour (depending on who's in charge) need to fund them alot more.

[Mystic Mock]

Obviously.

But in the real world, that's never going to happen.

So would you blow them up? As they're the only two options that I'm seeing at this point.

[Brillopad]

Actually six have been arrested now I believe.So seven to blame.

Why should the taxpayers pay for this scum to go to jail - the parents should be forced to pay. They created the problem.

[Marsh.]

So would you blow them up? As they're the only two options that I'm seeing at this point.
Blow who up Mock?

Radicalised individuals or Middle Eastern countries? We're already contributing the latter and it's not really doing anyone any good.

[Kizzy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/noam-chomsky-donald-trump-fake-terror-attack-false-flag-supporters-fanbase-policies-budget-cuts-a7655186.html


As distasteful as it is to contemplate, stranger things have happened. I don't think this was a false flag. But we can't deny that they have been used in the past.

[jaxie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/noam-chomsky-donald-trump-fake-terror-attack-false-flag-supporters-fanbase-policies-budget-cuts-a7655186.html


As distasteful as it is to contemplate, stranger things have happened. I don't think this was a false flag. But we can't deny that they have been used in the past.

That's even more bizarre than the suggestion our own government did the bombing at Manchester. As far as I'm concerned anyone promoting this nonsense loses all credibility, if the independent had any to begin with. It's not really worthy of the response I'm giving it.

What is with this desperation to suggest the cause of such atrosities was anything but Islamic extremist terroism? Has PC really gone that crazy?

[jennyjuniper]

I believe the first question we have to ask ourselves is, why. Why do lone or group terrorists want to commit these atrocities? If we know the answer to that question, is there anything we can do to stop them?

We are well aware that it doesn't take an immigrant to create an act of terror. We also know that these terrorists wear no uniform, don't drive tanks or carry Kalashnikov's so the question is, can we physically fight this war on terror?

Enough is enough. We have, for too long heard that we are fighting this war on terror and yet, month on month, things don't improve, bombs still go off and innocents still die. From the 70s into the 2000s we had IRA bombings. How did we bring that to an end? how did we stop the killing of innocents?

May will no doubt jump on her platform and tell us all that this will no longer be tolerated, that her "war on terror" will prevail. We've heard it all before and we tragically will hear it again but the terror will continue and the masses will become more afraid whilst the government continue to reassure us that they are going to make it all better.

I don't know about the long term view, but the Manchester bombing could have been stopped, if they had arressted the toe rag who did it as soon as he came back from Syria. The intelligence services KNEW he had gone to Syria to join isis and knew when he came back. First off, he shouldn't have been allowed back in, but if they allowed it they should have arrested him.

[DemolitionRed]

In the West, the answer is obvious. I certainly don't believe we can simply hope for the best - that simply isn't good enough. The aim of any government should be to protect its citizens - not inflict policies that have the opposite effect.

Islamists have been setting off bombs in the UK since 2005. For the past 12 years we have been watching these atrocities unfold and both governments, New Labour and the Conservatives have made numerous promises every time people get killed and injured.

Its still happening. We still hear that the terrorist was being watched before the act or the terrorist had connections with ISIS after the event. Whatever these governments do doesn't work because people are still dying.

[DemolitionRed]

:joker:

"negotiations with ISIS"

They want us become part of their Islamic state.They want the world to convert to Islam and for the ISIS flag to be flying over Westminster.

WTF are you going to offer them?.

I keep hearing this on here, so I went off to research it. Papers like The Sun, DM and Express are spreading this ridiculous propaganda with a full understanding it will create mass hysteria.

ISIS have no interest in populating the West. They equally have no interest in flying their flag over Westminster. ISIS want two things from the West and that's to tighten immigration rules and do this by unsettling us.

ISIS are relatively small army who have been losing more and more ground recently. The one thing they are experts in is spreading fear and propaganda. Back on their own turf they have no capabilities to fight western forces. They have no planes, they have no air capabilities, so they are getting hammered and losing territory every day. One way they can defeat being bombed by coalition forces is to use ground retaliation on the West, so this is a mixture of revenge, 'an eye for an eye' and a clear message that we can't put systems in place that will deter terrorist acts, no matter what government.

ISIS want to dominate the middle east, not the West. They see the West as the enemy who is systematically destroying their mission. They know that every terrorist act committed over here gives us all that alarming message that they are walking among us... that there are more of them than there are.

[DemolitionRed]

How is it ridiculous and disrespecting the dead for pointing out that there could be more to it?:conf:

Because we are told to believe its disrespectful and because we are told that its an unforgivable thing to say, peoples opinions are shut down.

There were many relatives of people killed in the twin towers that suspected it was some sort of government plot and yet all the bystanders were told it was disrespectful. Were the victims (the relatives and friends) being disrespectful to have such thoughts?

[Tozzie]

More muslim people need to stand up to the terrorists like the ones in this video.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153464748691939/

[Beso]

More muslim people need to stand up to the terrorists like the ones in this video.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153464748691939/

:clap1:

[RichardG]

Because we are told to believe its disrespectful and because we are told that its an unforgivable thing to say, peoples opinions are shut down.

There were many relatives of people killed in the twin towers that suspected it was some sort of government plot and yet all the bystanders were told it was disrespectful. Were the victims (the relatives and friends) being disrespectful to have such thoughts?

you're talking as if there is some kind of intelligent or reasonable basis for people to consider this conspiracy. there is not, it is unnescessary and everyone should be rightfully dismissing it.

[Mystic Mock]

Blow who up Mock?

Radicalised individuals or Middle Eastern countries? We're already contributing the latter and it's not really doing anyone any good.

Obviously I'm thinking of the former.

For me personally I think trying to negotiate something could be good if we had someone like Tony Blair who can negotiate with Terrorists.

[Mystic Mock]

That's even more bizarre than the suggestion our own government did the bombing at Manchester. As far as I'm concerned anyone promoting this nonsense loses all credibility, if the independent had any to begin with. It's not really worthy of the response I'm giving it.

What is with this desperation to suggest the cause of such atrosities was anything but Islamic extremist terroism? Has PC really gone that crazy?

What's your thoughts on Corbyn having blood on his hands according to The Sun?

The thing is if people look away from the emotional angle for the victims for a second, it is possible that May and Trump could use terrorism to save their butts as their policies haven't been very popular so they have actual motive to be behind a terrorist attack (or in Trump's case stage a false terrorist attack) so it's not as crazy as some are making it out to be.

For me personally I can't help but have some doubt with May because of the timing, I'm leaning on 85% innocent and 15% guilty as my gut is telling me that she didn't help cause it, and I honestly hope that she's innocent as I care about what happens to this country and I really wouldn't want Europe to see us as Laos who uses genocide on it's own citizens to win Elections. But I despite my gut and hope telling me that she can't have done it, there is that small doubt for me as it's the timing of it, it's too coincidental, but on the other hand I don't see May as an evil person.

[the truth]

What's your thoughts on Corbyn having blood on his hands according to The Sun?

The thing is if people look away from the emotional angle for the victims for a second, it is possible that May and Trump could use terrorism to save their butts as their policies haven't been very popular so they have actual motive to be behind a terrorist attack (or in Trump's case stage a false terrorist attack) so it's not as crazy as some are making it out to be.

For me personally I can't help but have some doubt with May because of the timing, I'm leaning on 85% innocent and 15% guilty as my gut is telling me that she didn't help cause it, and I honestly hope that she's innocent as I care about what happens to this country and I really wouldn't want Europe to see us as Laos who uses genocide on it's own citizens to win Elections. But I despite my gut and hope telling me that she can't have done it, there is that small doubt for me as it's the timing of it, it's too coincidental, but on the other hand I don't see May as an evil person.
what the heck is that all about?
this was done by an islamic terrorist

[Mystic Mock]

Because we are told to believe its disrespectful and because we are told that its an unforgivable thing to say, peoples opinions are shut down.

There were many relatives of people killed in the twin towers that suspected it was some sort of government plot and yet all the bystanders were told it was disrespectful. Were the victims (the relatives and friends) being disrespectful to have such thoughts?

I'm not saying that May is involved or that Bush was involved with 9/11, but they do/did have motive to be behind the attacks, it's just if you think that they're corrupt enough to do such a thing.

[Mystic Mock]

you're talking as if there is some kind of intelligent or reasonable basis for people to consider this conspiracy. there is not, it is unnescessary and everyone should be rightfully dismissing it.

So you honestly think that there is no possibility that the person who was losing support conveniently has a terrorist attack happen only a few days later? As I've said I honestly hope that she hasn't dragged the country down the ****ter like that, but for there to actually be a motive shows that there is intelligent thinking behind it, I honestly don't think that anybody wants it to be true but there is intelligent thinking behind why people would think that she'd be behind it.

[Mystic Mock]

what the heck is that all about?
this was done by an islamic terrorist

I'm honestly hoping out of the two choices that your view is simply just what it was.

[Kazanne]

I'm honestly hoping out of the two choices that your view is simply just what it was.

Mock,there is NO WAY any political party is responsible for this,I can't believe you think there is even a hint.

[Mystic Mock]

Mock,there is NO WAY any political party is responsible for this,I can't believe you think there is even a hint.

The timing of it is my only doubt, it really is weirdly timed that the attack happened when she was losing ground on all of the polls.

As I said I really hope that she didn't do it, and she seems more like an idiot to me than someone that's pure evil, but my feelings of why I think that there is a reason why she could be involved is something I think would be better to explain if I was in person than on the Internet as it can come off alot more clinical on text.

[MTVN]

'Look, my lead has gone from 20 points in the polls to 15 points, better hastily arrange someone to blow up some kids!!'

[Greg!]

Hmm wouldn't put it past Tezza.

[Greg!]

(joking obvs before I get lynched)

[Ninastar]

So this is going to be something that I know most people on here won't agree with. But I think that right now, more than ever, we need to have people be brave and say things without worrying what people say.

I think the first and most important thing is that we stop giving ****ing weapons to people who will use them against us. Like really, I don't care who thought this was a good idea and how much money it makes, I just think it's ridiculous.

Secondly, there's hundreds of thousands 'radical Muslims' out there... it is CRAZY to think that we can beat them alone. This is something that the whole world needs to come together to do. War sucks. It truly does and yes, innocent people are killed during wars, but look at all the innocent people killed in these terrorist events every single day! It's horrific. It truly is.

I said that the most important thing was to stop giving weapons to those who will use them against us, but I realised there's something that else that is just as important... education.

We (the rest of the world), once the Middle East is stable (something that would likely take decades) need to help educate the younger generation. We need to help them become more up to date with a modern lifestyle. I'm not saying we like go over there and force them to believe in stuff like gay marriage and feminism lol, but to learn and have a basic education and not be forced into Learning all the barbaric stuff Isis teaches them.

I know this sounds awful and I'm not the best at explaining my thoughts, but I have to go back to work now and I hope this makes sense.

[Mystic Mock]

'Look, my lead has gone from 20 points in the polls to 15 points, better hastily arrange someone to blow up some kids!!'

Actually it dropped from 24 points to 9 points.

[Ninastar]

Also, actually deporting the people who are being watched because of 'suspicious activity' would be a good start too. I know there's only so much our intelligence is allowed to do, but I believe they should be allowed to push for these 'suspicious' individuals to be deported. Esp the ones who travel to and from the Middle East very often.

[Northern Monkey]

.

I keep hearing this on here, so I went off to research it. Papers like The Sun, DM and Express are spreading this ridiculous propaganda with a full understanding it will create mass hysteria.

ISIS have no interest in populating the West. They equally have no interest in flying their flag over Westminster. ISIS want two things from the West and that's to tighten immigration rules and do this by unsettling us.

ISIS are relatively small army who have been losing more and more ground recently. The one thing they are experts in is spreading fear and propaganda. Back on their own turf they have no capabilities to fight western forces. They have no planes, they have no air capabilities, so they are getting hammered and losing territory every day. One way they can defeat being bombed by coalition forces is to use ground retaliation on the West, so this is a mixture of revenge, 'an eye for an eye' and a clear message that we can't put systems in place that will deter terrorist acts, no matter what government.

ISIS want to dominate the middle east, not the West. They see the West as the enemy who is systematically destroying their mission. They know that every terrorist act committed over here gives us all that alarming message that they are walking among us... that there are more of them than there are.

And the reason they're losing territory in Iraq is the UK and US airforce.The Iraqi army are **** on their own.They get scared and desert.ISIS overun them.
If we leave them to grow they will get more territory,richer,bigger,more advanced weaponary.They already have their own currency.
Don't kid yourself.If they could they'd love to take a European city.Now yes they'd never get past northern Syria or Turkey and if by a miracle they did they'd be wiped out within days but the intent is there.
They already control a port in Libya.There's the black flag hanging off a building there and boats sat there.That means they have access to the Mediterranean and easy access into Europe among all the economic migrants.
We can't just leave them to get on with it.

Oh and they're not that primitive militarily -
Among ISIS’s arsenal are portable air defence systems, guided anti-tank missiles and armoured fighting vehicles, as well as assault rifles like the Russian AK series and the US M16 and Bushmaster.

[Alf]

Start by listening to what these Islamists are saying, and start to take their threats seriously. Because they say what they want to achieve, and what they are going to do to achieve it, and as we keep seeing, they actually carry out those threats.

That would be a good place to start.

[smudgie]

I'm honestly hoping out of the two choices that your view is simply just what it was.

All a bit silly really. Not at all down to two choices.
The headlines stopped the Corbyn IRA stuff that is/will no doubt be front page shortly, so is there any chance you could blame him?
See, just to daft to contemplate really.

[DemolitionRed]

The Historian Mark Curtis has written an excellent, and chilling, article about the choices that governments have made in relation to their foreign policy. http://markcurtis.info/2017/05/24/the-british-establishment-is-putting-our-lives-at-risk-our-states-key-ally-is-a-major-public-threat/

The British establishment is putting our lives at risk: Our state’s key ally is a major public threat

This wave of terrorism driven by Islamic State, which has claimed responsibility for the attack, derives from a complex infrastructure of forces, working over time. But it springs ultimately from the ideology promoted by the ruling family in Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism, who were at least until recently funding and backing IS: they have done so to support their goal of overthrowing Assad in Syria and championing Sunni Islam in the face of rivalry with Iran. These are Britain’s allies. Whitehall has a deep, long-standing special relationship with the extremist Saudis: it is arming them, backing them, apologising for them, and supporting their regional policies. At the same time, the Saudis have been helping to create the monster that now threatens the British public. So, too, have the policies of the British government.

This is terrible, in the true sense of the term: the British establishment is putting our lives at risk in its obsessive obsequiousness in backing the Saudi state. We have to recognise that we are caught between two extremisms – that of IS and that of our own state’s priorities.

The British elite is perfectly aware of the insidious role that Saudi Arabia plays in fomenting terrorism. In October 2014, General Jonathan Shaw, a former Assistant Chief of the Defence Staff, told the Telegraph that Saudi Arabia and Qatar were primarily responsible for the rise of the extremist Islam that inspires IS terrorists.

Theresa May’s government, as previous governments, have endangered the British public by the relationship they choose to have with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. In recent months, May has signed up Britain to a new generation of special relationships with these states, based on selling more arms and providing more training of their militaries and security forces to keep the ruling families in power. All this has been done on the quiet, with scant government or media reporting. We are set for another generation of domestic tyranny in Gulf and foreign Islamist adventures, all now helped by raising the enemy of ‘Iran’ – a foreign policy agenda being set by Riyadh and recently helped by President Trump’s preposterous invocation of Iran as the major sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East.

We are in serious trouble unless this all changes. Our leaders’ policies are endangering us, and are among our major threats. The terrorism that we, ordinary people, face, derives from an ideology and infrastructure to which our leaders, claiming to protect us, have contributed. We desperately need another foreign policy entirely, one based on support for those promoting democracy and human rights – rather on than those with contempt for them.

I think it was Tony Benn who once said “the best way to defeat terrorism is to stop practising it”

[Northern Monkey]

dJPAEemWtfU

[Withano]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18670833_1847957585456180_8040549339755495783_n.jp g?oh=4bcade2fcdcccb9d9f899b0de68b26dd&oe=59B9245C

This guys Facebook status went a little viral, thought it was a pretty interesting perspective

[smudgie]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18670833_1847957585456180_8040549339755495783_n.jp g?oh=4bcade2fcdcccb9d9f899b0de68b26dd&oe=59B9245C

This guys Facebook status went a little viral, thought it was a pretty interesting perspective

Funny then that educated teachers and doctors have gone over to the other side as well.
Very simple to use the same old excuses.

[Northern Monkey]

From Question Time.
Now we don't know if this leaflet was official or if he was handed it by an attendee but either is worrying.Bear in mind that this is the mosque that allegedly has connections to Salman Abedi's group the LIFG.

I would say that mosques need some kind of monitoring.Especially this one.


9PNkar7Yjtk

[smudgie]

From Question Time.
Now we don't know if this leaflet was official or if he was handed it by an attendee but either is worrying.Bear in mind that this is the mosque that allegedly has connections to Salman Abedi's group the LIFG.

I would say that mosques need some kind of monitoring.Especially this one.


9PNkar7Yjtk

Yes, I watched this, and the denial by the lady in the audience, but she was proved wrong on the spot.:shrug:
We have to stop being terrified of standing on someone's feet and get it sorted.

[James]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18670833_1847957585456180_8040549339755495783_n.jp g?oh=4bcade2fcdcccb9d9f899b0de68b26dd&oe=59B9245C

This guys Facebook status went a little viral, thought it was a pretty interesting perspective

That's the poisonous world of social media he's referring to, where small numbers of people can get attention by making a large number of posts, often with extreme comments.

Most people in real life do separate the religion from the extremist fringe.

Though the 'kids who have spent their whole lives being bullied...' bit does remind me of the people who made excuses for Jo Cox's killer.

[Kizzy]

That's the poisonous world of social media he's referring to, where small numbers of people can get attention by making a large number of posts, often with extreme comments.

Most people in real life do separate the religion from the extremist fringe.

Though the 'kids who have spent their whole lives being bullied...' bit does remind me of the people who made excuses for Jo Cox's killer.

It's not an excuse, these are the sort of people who are committing these extremist terrorist attacks, those who are susceptible to extremist radicalisation.

Most people do not separate the religion from the extremist fringe you have several glaring examples of that on your very own forum I sorry to say James.

[James]

It's not an excuse, these are the sort of people who are committing these extremist terrorist attacks, those who are susceptible to extremist radicalisation.

Most people do not separate the religion from the extremist fringe you have several glaring examples of that on your very own forum I sorry to say James.

Well this forum is part of the online world I was talking about, where people say things they wouldn't in real life. We've had a few people on here who thought it was okay to make jokes about the Manchester victims, sadly. :(

Although I do actually think the discussions on here are generally better and more constructive than a lot I see on Twitter (don't really know what it is like on Facebook).

[jaxie]

It's not an excuse, these are the sort of people who are committing these extremist terrorist attacks, those who are susceptible to extremist radicalisation.

Most people do not separate the religion from the extremist fringe you have several glaring examples of that on your very own forum I sorry to say James.

That's completely untrue. It seems to be that some people confuse any discussion on religion as being some sort of racist diatribe.

[Brillopad]

That's completely untrue. It seems to be that some people confuse any discussion on religion as being some sort of racist diatribe.

Religion - The elephant in the room that exists because of how some people react to others not thinking as they are told to think. Such people only believe in controlled 'free speech'.

[Mystic Mock]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18670833_1847957585456180_8040549339755495783_n.jp g?oh=4bcade2fcdcccb9d9f899b0de68b26dd&oe=59B9245C

This guys Facebook status went a little viral, thought it was a pretty interesting perspective

Apart from the part where he claimed that "people who don't like Muslims are ISIS" he makes a very strong point.

[jaxie]

From Question Time.
Now we don't know if this leaflet was official or if he was handed it by an attendee but either is worrying.Bear in mind that this is the mosque that allegedly has connections to Salman Abedi's group the LIFG.

I would say that mosques need some kind of monitoring.Especially this one.


9PNkar7Yjtk

It wasn't from an attendee. He said twice on question time that the leaflet was in the official welcome pack received at the mosque on an open day.

[Brillopad]

It wasn't from an attendee. He said twice on question time that the leaflet was in the official welcome pack received at the mosque on an open day.

He did indeed. It concerns me that people were not acknowledging that. What is wrong with people?

[Cherie]

That's completely untrue. It seems to be that some people confuse any discussion on religion as being some sort of racist diatribe.

Only Islam every other religion can be held up for ridicule

[Cherie]

It wasn't from an attendee. He said twice on question time that the leaflet was in the official welcome pack received at the mosque on an open day.

Correct

[lostalex]

ISLAM IS A PROBLEM.

it is a hate group. 100 times worse than the KKK.

[Brillopad]

ISLAM IS A PROBLEM.

it is a hate group. 100 times worse than the KKK.

Agreed - and they are getting stronger by the day. People really do need to wake up to this threat - it is real - we are no longer talking a few fanatical nut jobs but a Hugh organised religious cult who will die for their cause, at least those that are gullible young fools, of which there are many, and who are intending great harm to the West.

[jaxie]

Only Islam every other religion can be held up for ridicule

I wouldn't ridicule your beliefs Cherie, you are entitled to have them if you wish, I don't share them but that isn't the same as mocking them.

My main issues are that often in religion there is an element of running peoples lives in a detrimental way, like blackmailing women not to use contraceptives because the church think they should have 20 babies, or telling women they are only modest if they cover themselves from head to foot, or the more serious issues like mutilating little girls, accusing children of witchcraft, forcing unmarried mothers to give up babies, oppression of women, trying to stop them receiving education, and so on, those I object to strongly.

[Cherie]

I wouldn't ridicule your beliefs Cherie, you are entitled to have them if you wish, I don't share them but that isn't the same as mocking them.

My main issues are that often in religion there is an element of running peoples lives in a detrimental way, like blackmailing women not to use contraceptives because the church think they should have 20 babies, or telling women they are only modest if they cover themselves from head to foot, or the more serious issues like mutilating little girls, accusing children of witchcraft, forcing unmarried mothers to give up babies, oppression of women, trying to stop them receiving education, and so on, those I object to strongly.

yeah I get that Jaxie, I think my point is that people tiptoe around Islam and accept things from that faith that they wouldn't from others. Im not even that religious im a Christmas and Easter catholic, and sometimes not even Easter..:laugh:

[jaxie]

yeah I get that Jaxie, I think my point is that people tiptoe around Islam and accept things from that faith that they wouldn't from others. Im not even that religious im a Christmas and Easter catholic, and sometimes not even Easter..:laugh:

I agree with you re Islam. And the more people claim it's not violent and the more violence is done in it's name well it has to be coming from somewhere in the teachings. I don't think making excuses and brushing it off is the right way to deal some serious problems in the religion and interpretation.

[Brillopad]

I agree with you re Islam. And the more people claim it's not violent and the more violence is done in it's name well it has to be coming from somewhere in the teachings. I don't think making excuses and brushing it off is the right way to deal some serious problems in the religion and interpretation.

We know it's in the teachings - we have heard the ISIS bigots quote it often enough. For me this is another way in which PC falls on its arse as it ignores the facts to pursue its agenda. It also insults the non-PC's intelligence in that the PC think if they ignore the facts - the non-PC Won't actually notice. Two strikes against it in my opinion.