Labour manifesto - costings - how ligitimate are they

[Brillopad]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-manifesto-conservatives-costings-promises-a7738721.html

This makes for an interesting read.

[Withano]

Thing is for me though, that if zero of his proposed policies come true (some or most will, taxing huge companies will obvso get you some dollar, article is being irrational... but for debates sake, lets go zero policies coming true) - then there would be little changes to the UK. The competition is proposing **** that I believe will make large changes to the UK, for the worse.
If its a fight between no policies, and bad policies, he still gets my vote.

[Northern Monkey]

Well.....

So far more legitimate than the Tories as they've not released any

Well except for the leaked breakfast bungle

[smudgie]

Well.....

So far more legitimate than the Tories as they've not released any

Well except for the leaked breakfast bungle

To be fair, they don't have much costing to do, they are not promising change change change and presents on the Christmas tree for everyone.

[Brillopad]

To be fair, they don't have much costing to do, they are not promising change change change and presents on the Christmas tree for everyone.

Excellent point smudgie. :dance:

[Kizzy]

Excellent point smudgie. :dance:

So you don't think the tories need to release any costings to state what the impact of future cuts will be.... Why?

[Brillopad]

So you don't think the tories need to release any costings to state what the impact of future cuts will be.... Why?

I didn't say that, but smudgies's point is correct they are not proposing sweeping changes in the way Labour are.

Corbyn has said all the right things, made all the right promises, promises he knows many want to hear - the practicalities and figures of which are still unproven by an independent source.

[Withano]

aka tories are promising cuts with no benefits, but thats okay cos taxing corporations might not get billions, even though a child could literally work out that it can, but like a tory has never said it could work sooo dont count.

[Kizzy]

I didn't say that, but smudgies's point is correct they are not proposing sweeping changes in the way Labour are.

Corbyn has said all the right things, made all the right promises, promises he knows many want to hear - the practicalities and figures of which are still unproven by an independent source.

They are... We just don't know what they are or what's being cut or introduced to pay for them. There's a difference.

[Brillopad]

They are... We just don't know what they are or what's being cut or introduced to pay for them. There's a difference.

Well people will be voting blindly then and if it all backfires on them they can only blame themselves and of course Corbyn.

[Kizzy]

Well people will be voting blindly then and if it all backfires on them they can only blame themselves and of course Corbyn.

How are they voting more blindly on policies costed than they are on the tories uncosted ones?... You're making little sense.

[Brillopad]

How are they voting more blindly on policies costed than they are on the tories uncosted ones?... You're making little sense.

Because we can only go on what we are being told from a party desperate to get voters on board. If the figures aren't right or further down the line, if he won, he backtracked saying the figures were wrong people will have been misled.

One way or the other people will be voting on faith alone mixed with a substantial amount of fear of another austere Tory government.

[Kizzy]

Because we can only go on what we are being told from a party desperate to get voters on board. If the figures aren't right or further down the line, if he won, he backtracked saying the figures were wrong people will have been misled.

One way or the other people will be voting on faith alone mixed with a substantial amount of fear of another austere Tory government.

And the tory voters will be blindly voting in the vain hope that however bad it gets it will somehow affect everybody elses family and not theirs.

[DemolitionRed]

The problem with mainstream economists like Ben Chu is, they never touch on 'public debt' and public debt is what determines the level of the economy. If you don't talk about public debt you may as well be doing economics for nursery school kids.

For the last 7-8 years we have had our government relying on public borrowing and peoples buoyant bank accounts. We are quite literally bailing the government out on a daily basis. It taxes the people more than it spends on the people. Public debt is a sign of the state of the economy but it not the cause of the state of the economy... that's austerity. No wonder they avoid talking about it!!

Right now we are sitting in a “inflationary gap” Employment is looking better and factories are working overtime but its not sustainable. If we don't keep borrowing. If we tighten our belts and stop spending this house of cards will fall down. Personal debt is the only way neoliberalism can survive and if that doesn't frighten you, then your not understanding the fragility in this.

This present government can promise us nothing because it simply doesn't have the money to pay.

Labour want to move away from neoliberal economics. Its something we should of done after the world crash but instead we set ourselves a course for our economy to go backwards.

Now Labour want to do what Brown should of done https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9zgRciHBWw

[DemolitionRed]

And the tory voters will be blindly voting in the vain hope that however bad it gets it will somehow affect everybody elses family and not theirs.

In fairness to the majority of Tory voters, I think its about feeling safe. The Tories are very good at playing 'Daddy'. "Give your money to Daddy and he will look after it for you. Give all your private access to Daddy and he's going to make sure you are safe when you go out with your friends. Vote for Daddy and he's going to make sure that nasty bogey man isn't going to steal your money and make your world unsafe".

[DemolitionRed]

They all too easily suggest Labour’s plans ‘won't work’ because those who have little understanding or interest in economics will take it to be an undeniable fact.

[Kazanne]

In fairness to the majority of Tory voters, I think its about feeling safe. The Tories are very good at playing 'Daddy'. "Give your money to Daddy and he will look after it for you. Give all your private access to Daddy and he's going to make sure you are safe when you go out with your friends. Vote for Daddy and he's going to make sure that nasty bogey man isn't going to steal your money and make your world unsafe".

Who are you to say what YOU think Tory supporters think? and why are you posting as though none of the Tory supporters on here will read your posts? You don't know how Tory supporters think in your minds they are all off their rockers with no understanding of politics ,the way the Tory supporters are vilified in here makes me want to support them more tbh. making out labour are so lily white and true to their word,you might not like TM but at least what you see is what you get,as for Corbyn,well he's a man of many alliances isn't he?Likes the odd terrorist does he not?

[Kazanne]

They all too easily suggest Labour’s plans ‘won't work’ because those who don’t have little understanding or interest in economics will take it to be an undeniable fact.

Who are 'they' ? don't tell me,not another back handed dig at Tory voters

[Kazanne]

And the tory voters will be blindly voting in the vain hope that however bad it gets it will somehow affect everybody elses family and not theirs.

I voted Tory last time and it affected my family,i just understood we all have to sacrifice a little sometimes, none of us starve or go without our luxuries, this is the UK we are one of the luckier countries..:wavey:

[Brillopad]

Who are you to say what YOU think Tory supporters think? and why are you posting as though none of the Tory supporters on here will read your posts? You don't know how Tory supporters think in your minds they are all off their rockers with no understanding of politics ,the way the Tory supporters are vilified in here makes me want to support them more tbh. making out labour are so lily white and true to their word,you might not like TM but at least what you see is what you get,as for Corbyn,well he's a man of many alliances isn't he?Likes the odd terrorist does he not?

You beat me to it Kazanne - I too found that and other similar posts very patronising. If Tory voters are being led along by their noses what does that say about labour voters led along by all those empty promises.

[Kazanne]

You beat me to it Kazanne - I too found that and other similar posts very patronising. If Tory voters are being led along by their noses what does that say about labour voters led along by all those empty promises.

Patronising is the right word brillo,no need for it,we have different opinions that is all,:wavey: maybe it's to put people off posting,it's worked a bit I think,but I wont shut up,lol :wavey:

[DemolitionRed]

Who are you to say what YOU think Tory supporters think? and why are you posting as though none of the Tory supporters on here will read your posts? You don't know how Tory supporters think in your minds they are all off their rockers with no understanding of politics ,the way the Tory supporters are vilified in here makes me want to support them more tbh. making out labour are so lily white and true to their word,you might not like TM but at least what you see is what you get,as for Corbyn,well he's a man of many alliances isn't he?Likes the odd terrorist does he not?

You wouldn't be suggesting you're getting vilified and the Left aren't? Its called "tasting your own medicine"... bitter isn't it?
If my words want to make you support the Tories more, that's absolutely fine by me but then I was never attempting to convert you :hee:

[DemolitionRed]

You beat me to it Kazanne - I too found that and other similar posts very patronising. If Tory voters are being led along by their noses what does that say about labour voters led along by all those empty promises.

You have the right to be offended. Do I have the right to offend?

[DemolitionRed]

Patronising is the right word brillo,no need for it,we have different opinions that is all,:wavey: maybe it's to put people off posting,it's worked a bit I think,but I wont shut up,lol :wavey:

Actually it did the opposite. When I put up some intelligent discussion it went very quiet on this thread but the moment I said something that offended you, you jumped straight back in. I could of put money on it!!

[Kazanne]

You wouldn't be suggesting you're getting vilified and the Left aren't? Its called "tasting your own medicine"... bitter isn't it?
If my words want to make you support the Tories more, that's absolutely fine by me but then I was never attempting to convert you :hee:

I don't need converting,I have a mind of my own thankyou,take a good look through the threads and see the ratio of patronising posts towards anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Kazanne]

Actually it did the opposite. When I put up some intelligent discussion it went very quiet on this thread but the moment I said something that offended you, you jumped straight back in. I could of put money on it!!

So YOU put up something intelligent, and it went quiet,what have you said that has offended me(or you think has)? and I already stated you wont shut me up,I know some people have been put off posting though which is a shame really.

[Brillopad]

Patronising is the right word brillo,no need for it,we have different opinions that is all,:wavey: maybe it's to put people off posting,it's worked a bit I think,but I wont shut up,lol :wavey:

Me neither! I couldn't if I tried. It's in the genes. :joker:

[Kazanne]

Me neither! I couldn't if I tried. It's in the genes. :joker:

Ya gobby mare,:joker::joker:welcome to the club.

[Brillopad]

Ya gobby mare,:joker::joker:welcome to the club.

:cheer2:

[smudgie]

Ya gobby mare,:joker::joker:welcome to the club.

:cheer2:

Oooooh, room for another:laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

So YOU put up something intelligent, and it went quiet,what have you said that has offended me(or you think has)? and I already stated you wont shut me up,I know some people have been put off posting though which is a shame really.

Nobody is trying to shut you up. I'll correct you when I believe your wrong, just like you feel the need to correct me when you believe I'm wrong.

[DemolitionRed]

feck it. I'm just putting you three on ignore because I'm sick of leaving this place feeling depressed.

[Kizzy]

You wouldn't be suggesting you're getting vilified and the Left aren't? Its called "tasting your own medicine"... bitter isn't it?
If my words want to make you support the Tories more, that's absolutely fine by me but then I was never attempting to convert you :hee:

You know an awful lot about 'the left' who are these 'the left?... I should like to meet them, they sound ace!

[Kazanne]

Oooooh, room for another:laugh:

Always room for you Smudgie,the voice of reason.

[Brillopad]

Always room for you Smudgie,the voice of reason.

Here, here! :dance:

[Kizzy]

I voted Tory last time and it affected my family,i just understood we all have to sacrifice a little sometimes, none of us starve or go without our luxuries, this is the UK we are one of the luckier countries..:wavey:

Well if you're ok with it fair play, many aren't. Many are sick of working and still living hand to mouth and sacrificing.

If you could be certain of a decent education for your kids, or to be able to afford to heat your home when you are older, or you're not terrified there will be no state healthcare or your house won't be ripped out from under you when you die...then it might be an option to maintain a state of permanent complacency... but you can't.

[Brillopad]

Well if you're ok with it fair play, many aren't. Many are sick of working and still living hand to mouth and sacrificing.

If you could be certain of a decent education for your kids, or to be able to afford to heat your home when you are older, or you're not terrified there will be no state healthcare or your house won't be ripped out from under you when you die...then it might be an option to maintain a state of permanent complacency... but you can't.

Whilst I understand those sentiments, by the same token you can't say it about labour either. Promises don't always lead to actions.

[Mystic Mock]

I voted Tory last time and it affected my family,i just understood we all have to sacrifice a little sometimes, none of us starve or go without our luxuries, this is the UK we are one of the luckier countries..:wavey:

But how much sacrifice can this country take before it stops becoming one of the "luckier" countries? The Tories don't hit themselves in the pocket, just the normal everyday working class/middle class person.

[Kizzy]

Whilst I understand those sentiments, by the same token you can't say it about labour either. Promises don't always lead to actions.

Yes but the issue is we know the conservatives are planning the cuts to schools and the 'dementia' tax £12k a year uni fees.. that's in their manifesto, so basically that's as good as it's going to get! It's already a dire situation they have put the public in and we haven't cast a vote yet... how could it get any worse?!

And yet we are not to trust someone who promises better living standards because 'he might be lying'? Even if he is and I doubt he is but for arguments sake you're right how could it be any worse than the current govts proposals?....how?

[DemolitionRed]

For those who haven't seen it, here is Labours costed manifesto http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/Images/manifesto-2017/Funding%20Britain%27s%20Future.PDF

And a blog worth reading by Prem Sikka Professor of Accounting at the University of Essex https://leftfootforward.org/2017/05/on-corporation-tax-the-institute-of-fiscal-studies-has-shown-its-neoliberal-prejudice/

[joeysteele]

Who are you to say what YOU think Tory supporters think? and why are you posting as though none of the Tory supporters on here will read your posts? You don't know how Tory supporters think in your minds they are all off their rockers with no understanding of politics ,the way the Tory supporters are vilified in here makes me want to support them more tbh. making out labour are so lily white and true to their word,you might not like TM but at least what you see is what you get,as for Corbyn,well he's a man of many alliances isn't he?Likes the odd terrorist does he not?

What's your view then of defence Secretary Michael Fallon at the celebrations with and for the re election of Assad in Syria.

Is he worthy of support since its said Assad has used chemical weaponry to kill his own people.

What you see may be what you get from May,what you hear from her is meaningless.

What she supports and would use her power to bring back too warrants all the villifying that rotten woman gets in my view.

[jaxie]

What's your view then of defence Secretary Michael Fallon at the celebrations with and for the re election of Assad in Syria.

Is he worthy of support since its said Assad has used chemical weaponry to kill his own people.

What you see may be what you get from May,what you hear from her is meaningless.

What she supports and would use her power to bring back too warrants all the villifying that rotten woman gets in my view.

Wasn't the celebration before Assad used the chemical weapons on his own people. Surely you aren't claiming that the Tories can predict the future?

[joeysteele]

Wasn't the celebration before Assad used the chemical weapons on his own people. Surely you aren't claiming that the Tories can predict the future?

I think you will find Assad has been seen as dubious for some time if you bother to look.
Good try though to again possibly attempt to cover up any Con unsavoury dealings.
While never hesitating to pile in on any possible Labour ones again and again.

[jaxie]

I think you will find Assad has been seen as dubious for some time if you bother to look.
Good try though to again possibly attempt to cover up any Con unsavoury dealings.
While never hesitating to pile in on any possible Labour ones again and again.

Why would I need to cover up anything for the Tories? You're barking up the wrong tree.

It doesn't matter how Assad was seen prior to the war in Syria, guilt isn't assumed. Benefit of the doubt before the crime is committed and all that. You can't blame people for not knowing something was going to happen. That's not rational.

[smudgie]

What's your view then of defence Secretary Michael Fallon at the celebrations with and for the re election of Assad in Syria.

Is he worthy of support since its said Assad has used chemical weaponry to kill his own people.

What you see may be what you get from May,what you hear from her is meaningless.

What she supports and would use her power to bring back too warrants all the villifying that rotten woman gets in my view.

It is a well known fact that Mr Fallon was in Syria in 2007meeting Assad, he was with the all party group that went yearly....as was Corbyn when he went over and met him in 2009.
Better times and better relationships across the board it appears.

[joeysteele]

Why would I need to cover up anything for the Tories? You're barking up the wrong tree.

It doesn't matter how Assad was seen prior to the war in Syria, guilt isn't assumed. Benefit of the doubt before the crime is committed and all that. You can't blame people for not knowing something was going to happen. That's not rational.

Possible nonsense and sorry to say so.

His human rights record from first taking over seemed to get worse.

Not barking up any wrong tree at all,you dive into any issue against Labour far easier than you do as to the Cons.

That's your right and choice but you'll find you will get disagreement as to the possible unfairness of that.

This is about Labour's manifesto costings anyway,Assad has nothing to do with that or in fact the Irish issues of decades ago.

To get back to the thread point,Labour's plans are costed,we have no clue as to even what the Cons intend to do or costings.

Yes Labour will possibly be left with a shortfall 'if' their tax plan changes don't meet the targets.
However even that shortfall is only likely to be 8 billion so not insurmountable.

The re nationalisation plans are what cannot be fully assessed as the timetable as franchises end will determine costs needed.
Whether nationalisation or remaining privatised, in the end according to the IFS, have little major effect as to growth and the economy.

Nationalisation would in the long run mean controlling more easily pricing for the services, remaining privatised will maintain the status quo more likely as now as to likely more rising costs.
That's the choice voters need to make.

[jaxie]

Possible nonsense and sorry to say so.

His human rights record from first taking over seemed to get worse.

Not barking up any wrong tree at all,you dive into any issue against Labour far easier than you do as to the Cons.

That's your right and choice but you'll find you will get disagreement as to the possible unfairness of that.

This is about Labour's manifesto costings anyway,Assad has nothing to do with that or in fact the Irish issues of decades ago.

To get back to the thread point,Labour's plans are costed,we have no clue as to even what the Cons intend to do or costings.

Yes Labour will possibly be left with a shortfall 'if' their tax plan changes don't meet the targets.
However even that shortfall is only likely to be 8 billion so not insurmountable.

The re nationalisation plans are what cannot be fully assessed as the timetable as franchises end will determine costs needed.
Whether nationalisation or remaining privatised, in the end according to the IFS, have little major effect as to growth and the economy.

Nationalisation would in the long run mean controlling more easily pricing for the services, remaining privatised will maintain the status quo more likely as now as to likely more rising costs.
That's the choice voters need to make.

You brought Assad up. Did Corbyn need the same mind reading skills when he went to meet him in 2009, or is it only the Tories who can't meet someone who might commit a crime later? What's nonsense? Claiming the Tories should know before hand who is going to commit a war crime?

I wasn't aware anyone had made you the forum police about when I can jump in or not, must have missed the emails alerts.

Only 8 billion shortfall? Oh that's ok then, the Tories can easily cover that with another 5 years of austerity after another disasterous Labour government then. :shrug:

[joeysteele]

You brought Assad up. Did Corbyn need the same mind reading skills when he went to meet him in 2009, or is it only the Tories who can't meet someone who might commit a crime later? What's nonsense? Claiming the Tories should know before hand who is going to commit a war crime?

I wasn't aware anyone had made you the forum police about when I can jump in or not, must have missed the emails alerts.

Only 8 billion shortfall? Oh that's ok then, the Tories can easily cover that with another 5 years of austerity after another disasterous Labour government then. :shrug:


Well what is 8 billion,jumping in again you are to build up the Cons.
Where in fact they have just magically found 8 billion extra for the NHS.
Except they haven't said where it has come from or how it would be raised by them
Something that jumps out as to you ignoring that 8 billion figure conveniently.

I said if Labour's tax plans, fail,I stress if, then they may have an 8 billion shortfall.
Not certain at all and the tax change plans may even exceed expectations.

It doesn't mean even with a shortfall that Labour would need to further borrow that.
It may mean shelving something they planned to do for a period or borrow to fulfill it, as all govts do.

Before you dive in as to shelving plans,we were assured that 5 years of hard austerity would clear the deficit by 2015.
Due to failure and borrowing by the Cons,that was extended for the last 2 years,and now we are told austerity needs to be there another 5 years but bow instead of cleared by 2015, Mrs May states the deficit won't be gone now until 2025.

Ignore that all you like and blame Labour for everything but thankfully it seems others are now coming to see that big failure of twice extended austerity measures and blaming who is responsible, the Cons.

[DemolitionRed]

Austerity is just a stealth tax on its nation. We can never have austerity because to have no debt is to have no economy.

Every time I hear "Labour spent too much" I want to scream. Its a fundamental misrepresentation of the facts. Is it too much to understand that the crisis in bond markets started with the banks and will end with the banks? Austerity reduces wages, cuts growth and shrinks the economy. Its a class specific put-option that comes as at a cost to both working and middle class people.

Austerity is the greatest bait and switch in British economic history and it will keep bleeding us dry because most people don't understand it and believe it to be a good thing!

[Brillopad]

Austerity is just a stealth tax on its nation. We can never have austerity because to have no debt is to have no economy.

Every time I hear "Labour spent too much" I want to scream. Its a fundamental misrepresentation of the facts. Is it too much to understand that the crisis in bond markets started with the banks and will end with the banks? Austerity reduces wages, cuts growth and shrinks the economy. Its a class specific put-option that comes as at a cost to both working and middle class people.

Austerity is the greatest bait and switch in British economic history and it will keep bleeding us dry because most people don't understand it and believe it to be a good thing!

Out of interest what makes you the expert as you keep suggesting you know more than most others on the forum. What are your credentials?

[Kizzy]

Out of interest what makes you the expert as you keep suggesting you know more than most others on the forum. What are your credentials?

Where does it state DR is an expert?...That's an opinion is all, like arseholes we all have one.

[DemolitionRed]

The information is out there if only people are willing to look. As for my expertise?!? I just have a healthy interest in economics.

[Brillopad]

Where does it state DR is an expert?...That's an opinion is all, like arseholes we all have one.

She keeps suggesting she knows more about this than most. Given that it is natural to ask.

[joeysteele]

The information is out there if only people are willing to look. As for my expertise?!? I just have a healthy interest in economics.

The info is out there you are spot on.

You always too are sure of what you point out as well.
Please keep going.

[DemolitionRed]

The info is out there you are spot on.

You always too are sure of what you point out as well.
Please keep going.

Thanks Joey :hee: and I will.

[user104658]

She keeps suggesting she knows about this than most. Given that it is natural to ask.

Hmmmmm now what extensive credentials might one need to know more about it, than most on this forum? :hehe:

Basic literacy and numeracy I would imagine.

[jaxie]

Well what is 8 billion,jumping in again you are to build up the Cons.
Where in fact they have just magically found 8 billion extra for the NHS.
Except they haven't said where it has come from or how it would be raised by them
Something that jumps out as to you ignoring that 8 billion figure conveniently.

I said if Labour's tax plans, fail,I stress if, then they may have an 8 billion shortfall.
Not certain at all and the tax change plans may even exceed expectations.

It doesn't mean even with a shortfall that Labour would need to further borrow that.
It may mean shelving something they planned to do for a period or borrow to fulfill it, as all govts do.

Before you dive in as to shelving plans,we were assured that 5 years of hard austerity would clear the deficit by 2015.
Due to failure and borrowing by the Cons,that was extended for the last 2 years,and now we are told austerity needs to be there another 5 years but bow instead of cleared by 2015, Mrs May states the deficit won't be gone now until 2025.

Ignore that all you like and blame Labour for everything but thankfully it seems others are now coming to see that big failure of twice extended austerity measures and blaming who is responsible, the Cons.

Fantasy.

[jaxie]

Hmmmmm now what extensive credentials might one need to know more about it, than most on this forum? :hehe:

Basic literacy and numeracy I would imagine.

Welcome back.

[user104658]

Welcome back.
Did I say I was leaving?

[jaxie]

Did I say I was leaving?

You didn't? I must have misinterpreted the flounce, so sorry. Nice to see you stayed. What is a forum without diversity?

[Kazanne]

You didn't? I must have misinterpreted the flounce, so sorry. Nice to see you stayed. What is a forum without diversity?

:joker::joker:

[user104658]

You didn't? I must have misinterpreted the flounce, so sorry. Nice to see you stayed. What is a forum without diversity?
Oh no I believe I said (more colourfully) that I am done with the forum. Which I am. That doesn't mean I'm leaving. Though I doubt I'll be given the choice eventually :think:.

[Denver]

Labour have no idea what they are doing

[joeysteele]

Fantasy.

One word answer, really that's the best you can do.
What is actually certainly provable wrong in my post.

Or are there too many factual hometruths about the party you race to defend near most of the time,namely the Cons.

I'm happy with your one word answer however none of that post is fantasy at all.

[jaxie]

Oh no I believe I said (more colourfully) that I am done with the forum. Which I am. That doesn't mean I'm leaving. Though I doubt I'll be given the choice eventually :think:.

I wasn't going to mention the expletives. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

She keeps suggesting she knows more about this than most. Given that it is natural to ask.

She hasn't suggested anything of the sort.

[Kizzy]

M36y6HaSM-8

[JTM45]

She keeps suggesting she knows more about this than most.

She does.:shrug:

I think even Donald Trump may know more about politics than 'certain' people around here (not pointing any fingers........at you). It's like someone bringing a spork to a knifefight! :cheer2:

[DemolitionRed]

M36y6HaSM-8 Shared, shared, shared.

Who loves ye daddy!

[DemolitionRed]

Labour have no idea what they are doing

What makes you think that?

[Brillopad]

Shared, shared, shared.

Who loves ye daddy!

'Daddy'? :shrug: