Increasingly thinly-veiled outright hate speech on TiBB

[user104658]

Are we allowed to talk about this, or is it "not allowed because it's talking about other members"?

This thread will probably be deleted but that's not really an issue because it will be deleted by a moderator or an admin and that's really who it's for.

You have a problem here and if you guys aren't already talking behind the scenes about doing something about it, you need to be, it is going to get out of control.

This is quickly going way beyond "opinions and freedom of speech".

That's all I have to say, really.

[Firewire]

You know you're in for a bad time when the accusation of racism is worse than actually being racist (or discriminatory in any way)

[Beso]

We need examples and links.

[Wizard.]

im conf

[user104658]

We need examples and links.

Do you :idc:

im conf

Are you :idc:

[T*]

____from2005?

[Kizzy]

100% agree TS

[reece(:]

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[UserSince2005]

At the end of the day, some people are just speaking sense and from the heart, about our current predicament.

Its people's opinions. This is a forum, by definition, a discussion of opinions. Just because you hypersensitively perceive them to be racist doesn't mean they are.

Some people don't bury their heads in the sand, and they should not be accused of evil intent for not doing so.

[UserSince2005]

____from2005?

shut it.

[user104658]

____from2005?

I'm not really thinking specifics at all, I'm talking about a quite obvious recent trend for people "testing and pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with saying" and finding that the answer is "So long as it's not about other members, you can say whatever the hell you want".

And this is being applauded as freedom of speech, except that it's false, and broken, because if you started saying the things that these people are saying in public (or on any other form of social media) people would be shouting you down for it. But on here... you can say what you want "so long as it's in general" and no one can say anything about it, cos that's talking about other members. It's a moderation system that is completely and utterly ****ing broken but it's being stuck to like it's some sort of religious doctrine.

The way I see it, a choice has to be made here. Either abandon the "can't talk about each other" rule OR introduce at least SOME sort of rules about general hate speech. Or secret option #3 (and of course exactly what is going to happen): Ignore it and have the place spiral into nothing BUT hate speech.

[user104658]

Some people don't bury their heads in the sand, and they should not be accused of evil intent for not doing so.

"I'm entitled to my opinions, and how dare you have opinions about my opinions".

[T*]

I'm not really thinking specifics at all, I'm talking about a quite obvious recent trend for people "testing and pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with saying" and finding that the answer is "So long as it's not about other members, you can say whatever the hell you want".

And this is being applauded as freedom of speech, except that it's false, and broken, because if you started saying the things that these people are saying in public (or on any other form of social media) people would be shouting you down for it. But on here... you can say what you want "so long as it's in general" and no one can say anything about it, cos that's talking about other members. It's a moderation system that is completely and utterly ****ing broken but it's being stuck to like it's some sort of religious doctrine.

The way I see it, a choice has to be made here. Either abandon the "can't talk about each other" rule OR introduce at least SOME sort of rules about general hate speech. Or secret option #3 (and of course exactly what is going to happen): Ignore it and have the place spiral into nothing BUT hate speech.

well said!

[UserSince2005]

Do you know what a liberal friend said to me last night. "This happens in Syria on a daily basis and worse".

Typical "it's not a big deal" liberal attitude.

[smudgie]

I won't thinly veil my hate for terrorist scum.
So bite me.

[Ammi]

...Lord, I don't even know how to start with that OP/post and I'm not used to posting/gathering my thoughts for posting atm..so I'll just say (as best as I can..)...the 'all I have to say' and leave it at that...

...there is a 'problem' for sure because there is a 'problem' in the world atm and the forum reflects that...but I personally don't see it as a problem that can be focused on any particular people with exclusion to others who are focusing on those...everyone and without exception are naturally concerned for their lives, for the lives of others etc...I think that's something we all are agreed on, we don't though all have the same thoughts and reasoning on what we feel is 'blame' and because of that we all have different opinions at what we feel it would take to try to move toward a safer world...no one is all right in their views, whatever their views are and no one is all wrong in them either..but no one seems to listen, I mean really listen to anyone says...they just label and accuse, they pigeon-hole, rather than question/rather than communicate and communication/listening/dissecting etc is THE ONLY way in any possibility of moving forward...

...should we just remove everyone from the forum whose opinions/whose values oppose our own, is that going to move anything forward from this negative world we're in atm...my personal opinion is, is that 'shouting down'/accusing because we may feel a person is intolerant is as bad as walking away from something which we should be trying to take opportunities to understand...understanding takes steps forward to being able to communicate and (possibly) have people listen to us as well..?...have we learned nothing from the presidency of Trump becoming real...?...the people who voted for him because 'he listened to them'...would it have happened, had people not felt they couldn't talk about their concerns and fears without judgement, when everyone is as fearful as each other../there is only differing views on 'cause/and effect', type thing...sorting through all of the ..oh, it's the immigrants/no it's not, it's intolerance is surely something that is necessary for our world and for any steps forward...?...and the same with Brexit, if some voted because of concerns on immigration..?...whether anyone agrees/disagrees or whatever...judging those people for their concerns, throwing up of hands in the air and the refusal to try to understand led to a pretty extreme vote from many...so do we not all bear a responsibility for that..?.../I personally think so...(my opinion of course..)..is that what all of our focus should be is to look at ourselves and our own contribution's to the world we live in and stop judging others and to start listening and really trying communication over judgement...because there really doesn't seem to be a 'side' atm that is 'in the right'....

[Scarlett.]

I won't thinly veil my hate for terrorist scum.
So bite me.

I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum hates terrorists.

[user104658]

I would agree with you Ammi if, like I said in my last post, we actually were allowed to have that discussion. As it stands, you're allowed to say "it's immigrants" (and anything you want to say about those immigrants) but the flipping you're talking about - mentioning intolerance, pointing out when someone is being intolerant, is expressly forbidden as "making comments about other members" and will get you banned.

So I can only go back to what I originally said. Either there has to be more acceptance for people calling out each other's opinions - which may include personal comments - or there needs to be SOME sort of limitation on the level of hate speech that is tolerated. I'm not saying ban anyone. I'm not saying disallow opinions that immigration is to blame. I'm saying that there are comments that go far beyond that and they are increasing in number, confidence, and severity and will continue to do so, because the people doing it are starting to feel untouchable. It's a problem that's only going to get worse.

[smudgie]

I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum hates terrorists.

Just making sure my views can't be considered "thinly veiled".
We all have our own opinions, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and we shouldn't try to shut down other people opinions by throwing out insults to them that hold them.

[lime]

Well said TS....looks like something happened last night that i don't know about....as an Afrkaaner reading here lately is stomach churing...why people just can't grow a set of balls and say "i'm racist "is beyond me.Coming from a Boer I know racism when I see it ...and it is thriving here

[Kazanne]

Just making sure my views can't be considered "thinly veiled".
We all have our own opinions, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and we shouldn't try to shut down other people opinions by throwing out insults to them that hold them.

How could anyone disagree with that ? trouble is some people think they know better than anyone else which is fine,but please don't force those opinions on me.

[user104658]

Do you know what a liberal friend said to me last night. "This happens in Syria on a daily basis and worse".

Typical "it's not a big deal" liberal attitude.
Do you know what my hard core righty friend said to me last night? "We should just round up all of the brown people and set them on fire".

Typical violent racist right wing attitude.


Hey look we didn't mention any forum members and therefore these posts are fine! Hooraaaay.

[Kizzy]

Well said TS....looks like something happened last night that i don't know about....as an Afrkaaner reading here lately is stomach churing...why people just can't grow a set of balls and say "i'm racist "is beyond me.Coming from a Boer I know racism when I see it ...and it is thriving here

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

Thank you Lime, at least your opinion won't be simply dismissed as PC.

[Kazanne]

Well said TS....looks like something happened last night that i don't know about....as an Afrkaaner reading here lately is stomach churing...why people just can't grow a set of balls and say "i'm racist "is beyond me.Coming from a Boer I know racism when I see it ...and it is thriving here

I was on here last night have to admit I saw nothing untowards just people giving their opinions:shrug: but I suppose I could have missed something

[Withano]

Well said TS....looks like something happened last night that i don't know about....as an Afrkaaner reading here lately is stomach churing...why people just can't grow a set of balls and say "i'm racist "is beyond me.Coming from a Boer I know racism when I see it ...and it is thriving here

This is heartbreaking to read, I guess I wouldnt ever be comfortable calling somebody a racist because its hard to imagine tibb posts entirely reflecting any single person.
But I guess racism is a scale, and people are increasingly climbing that ladder. Its devastating to see that you, and probably others, feel as if some members have crossed the threshold.

[Ammi]

I would agree with you Ammi if, like I said in my last post, we actually were allowed to have that discussion. As it stands, you're allowed to say "it's immigrants" (and anything you want to say about those immigrants) but the flipping you're talking about - mentioning intolerance, pointing out when someone is being intolerant, is expressly forbidden as "making comments about other members" and will get you banned.

So I can only go back to what I originally said. Either there has to be more acceptance for people calling out each other's opinions - which may include personal comments - or there needs to be SOME sort of limitation on the level of hate speech that is tolerated. I'm not saying ban anyone. I'm not saying disallow opinions that immigration is to blame. I'm saying that there are comments that go far beyond that and they are increasing in number, confidence, and severity and will continue to do so, because the people doing it are starting to feel untouchable. It's a problem that's only going to get worse.

..I'm not really sure what making comments about other people would achieve other than some personal gratification or satisfaction maybe.../maybe a relief of some frustration../who knows..?...only the person feeling the need I guess...but I reckon that the comments being objected to are being made with frustration as well so it really is all rather pointless, rather than taking the opportunity to actually try to understand where their views are coming from....(it seems to me to be a 'problem that's getting worse' )..because of the contribution of many in not being listened to....

[AnnieK]

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

[Shaun]

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

Agree with this. I've seen a handful of racist posts but not many, really, and they've been - to my knowledge - dealt with.

The OP is presumably more frustrated with the buck-passing peddled by tabloids, which is understandable.

[Ammi]

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

...:love:..I recall reading many articles after the unthinkable happened of Donald Trump being elected..?...and the thing that came across more than anything else was how 'invisible' many had felt in their fears and concerns and in their problems and how in-listened to they felt they were...that I think is a very 'dangerous world' to live in ....just look where it's all leading atm for the whole human race, how much it's contributing....

[user104658]

I think all views are best aired to an extent obviously within legal reasoning. It's the only way to continue educating both ourselves and others. Shutting down people's views allows them to fester and grow....only by discussing and debating can fears and Descrimination be tackled head on.

There have been comments on here that, if aired in public, could legitimately result in an arrest for hate speech and incitement to violence. But people will dismiss that as "PC Gone mad, stifling of free speech", so that's why I've tried to steer clear of the actual legality of things.

Again, there is no discussion. We're not allowed to tackle it. Telling someone that you believe their views to be horrendous and discriminatory is "passing personal comment" and therefore not allowed.

Ammi; I'm not sure where you've got the idea that be "personal comments" I mean throwing around Insults... All I mean is directly being able to address people's posts and share an opinion on that post, and an opinion on that person for making that post. That is discussion, that is part of these issues being addressed. It is specifically not allowed. Reiterating, again: people can say whatever they want "in general" without fear of anyone expressing a negative opinion of them, personally, for their abhorrent views. It doesn't work. It isn't working. There is abundant evidence of it not working. This forum is increasingly, by the day, full of smug entitled racism. That is MY opinion and I am as entitled to it as anyone else, though I'm sure I'll be accused of "thinking I'm always right" for...what? For not agreeing with THEM. If it wasn't such mind-blowingly frustrating hypocrisy it would actually be funny.

[thesheriff443]

Members have strong opinions on both sides.

Terrorist want people to hate each other.

[jaxie]

...Lord, I don't even know how to start with that OP/post and I'm not used to posting/gathering my thoughts for posting atm..so I'll just say (as best as I can..)...the 'all I have to say' and leave it at that...

...there is a 'problem' for sure because there is a 'problem' in the world atm and the forum reflects that...but I personally don't see it as a problem that can be focused on any particular people with exclusion to others who are focusing on those...everyone and without exception are naturally concerned for their lives, for the lives of others etc...I think that's something we all are agreed on, we don't though all have the same thoughts and reasoning on what we feel is 'blame' and because of that we all have different opinions at what we feel it would take to try to move toward a safer world...no one is all right in their views, whatever their views are and no one is all wrong in them either..but no one seems to listen, I mean really listen to anyone says...they just label and accuse, they pigeon-hole, rather than question/rather than communicate and communication/listening/dissecting etc is THE ONLY way in any possibility of moving forward...

...should we just remove everyone from the forum whose opinions/whose values oppose our own, is that going to move anything forward from this negative world we're in atm...my personal opinion is, is that 'shouting down'/accusing because we may feel a person is intolerant is as bad as walking away from something which we should be trying to take opportunities to understand...understanding takes steps forward to being able to communicate and (possibly) have people listen to us as well..?...have we learned nothing from the presidency of Trump becoming real...?...the people who voted for him because 'he listened to them'...would it have happened, had people not felt they couldn't talk about their concerns and fears without judgement, when everyone is as fearful as each other../there is only differing views on 'cause/and effect', type thing...sorting through all of the ..oh, it's the immigrants/no it's not, it's intolerance is surely something that is necessary for our world and for any steps forward...?...and the same with Brexit, if some voted because of concerns on immigration..?...whether anyone agrees/disagrees or whatever...judging those people for their concerns, throwing up of hands in the air and the refusal to try to understand led to a pretty extreme vote from many...so do we not all bear a responsibility for that..?.../I personally think so...(my opinion of course..)..is that what all of our focus should be is to look at ourselves and our own contribution's to the world we live in and stop judging others and to start listening and really trying communication over judgement...because there really doesn't seem to be a 'side' atm that is 'in the right'....

:clap1: This is the post of this thread. I can only urge the OP to really read it, and others here too. That was so very well put, much admiration for you Ammi, and welcome back.

[user104658]

Members have strong opinions on both sides.

Terrorist want people to hate each other.
Terrorists want people to hate and fear Muslims because a Muslim who is hated and feared is easier to recruit. They don't care what anyone else thinks of each other.

They are winning. :clap1:

[user104658]

:clap1: This is the post of this thread. I can only urge the OP to really read it, and others here too.
I have read it and I agree with plenty of it, I've stated in countless threads that I fully believe in freedom of speech, but as much as I adore Ammi and her posts, she is overlooking my point exactly as you are.

That point being that there is a line. There needs to be a line, somewhere, between free speech and hate speech and that line is being crossed. Not often, not in every thread, not even every day maybe, but it is an increasing trend that needs to be addressed before it gets totally out of hand. That is what my OP says. Draw that line BEFORE this gets way out of hand. The line is unclear and there is a huge problem looming, plenty of people can see it.

[jaxie]

I have read it and I agree with plenty of it, I've stated in countless threads that I fully believe in freedom of speech, but as much as I adore Ammi and her posts, she is overlooking my point exactly as you are.

That point being that there is a line. There needs to be a line, somewhere, between free speech and hate speech and that line is being crossed. Not often, not in every thread, not even every day maybe, but it is an increasing trend that needs to be addressed before it gets totally out of hand. That is what my OP says. Draw that line BEFORE this gets way out of hand. The line is unclear and there is a huge problem looming, plenty of people can see it.

The problem with that TS if I can be blunt is that I think you're finger pointing and that is also not nice. Shutting down dialogue isn't the way. I used to agree with a lot of your posts until you began throwing round veiled accusations at people. :shrug: I will agree with you that there are some posts that are inappropriate but so is all the finger pointing and it isn't always in the right place.

There are wise words in the post below also.

[thesheriff443]

If you see a post and think its racist report it!
Mods do a great job.

[Alf]

If you see a post and think its racist report it!
Mods do a great job.Or if you see sarcasm, report that too, they also do a job on that.

This sarcastic post will bring me another infraction.

[Scarlett.]

Do you know what my hard core righty friend said to me last night? "We should just round up all of the brown people and set them on fire".

Typical violent racist right wing attitude.


Hey look we didn't mention any forum members and therefore these posts are fine! Hooraaaay.

I've seen a lot of people saying **** like that, and I just don't get it, don't people remember the events of WWII? It was less than 100 ****ing years ago, yet everyone seems ready to repeat history.

[Kazanne]

I've seen no hate speech on here,just people with very different opinions:shrug:

[user104658]

The problem with that TS if I can be blunt is that I think you're finger pointing and that is also not nice. Shutting down dialogue isn't the way. I used to agree with a lot of your posts until you began throwing round veiled accusations at people. :shrug: I will agree with you that there are some posts that are inappropriate but so is all the finger pointing and it isn't always in the right place.

There are wise words in the post below also.

Frankly jaxie, they're only "veiled" because naming names isn't allowed. There are people who deserve to have a finger pointed at them because the things they are saying, cross a line. I feel like I'm not doing anything but repeating the same things now, though... there are people who can see what I'm seeing and that at least is some comfort. If I was making these posts expecting everyone to know what I'm talking about, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

[user104658]

I've seen no hate speech on here,just people with very different opinions:shrug:

As someone who is constantly telling me that I'm wrong to "always believe that I'm right" - I'm confused as to why you would think that the fact that "you don't see it" means it definitely isn't there. Do you accept that it might be there and you simply aren't aware of it, or are overlooking it?

[Maru]

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely :laugh:)

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)

[Withano]

Frankly jaxie, they're only "veiled" because naming names isn't allowed. There are people who deserve to have a finger pointed at them because the things they are saying, cross a line. I feel like I'm not doing anything but repeating the same things now, though... there are people who can see what I'm seeing and that at least is some comfort. If I was making these posts expecting everyone to know what I'm talking about, then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.

[user104658]

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely :laugh:)

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)

I agree with all of that tbh, I'm just pretty frustrated that a forum that used to be genuinely enjoyable has been caught up in that wave and wrecked to the point of being almost unusable. I'm not ignorant to my own role either. Though, like you say, it's everywhere anyway and somewhat inevitable... and the correct response is probably to just let it go.

[Ninastar]

I 100% agree with Ammi (particularly the first post). Welcome to 2017.

Our institutions are being stretched to their limits as far as freedom of speech and democracy is concerned and more and more pressure are being put on them to do more than they are able. The same thing happening to our institutions is what has happened to TiBB.

Democracy itself in particular is being tested by the introduction of the internet. It used to take months if not years to create movements. Now they are created in minutes. Fires can be created through social media and sites like these just as fast as they are being snuffed out. No question, our very definition of culture and what we call "society" is being tested.

There's not much the mods can to "regulate" this... especially if our own governments can't even control the spread. Media outlets (left or right) try to "suppress" these ideas or movements they see as a threat to their perceived vision of our culture and all it does is create more fires to be put out.

Simply put, if the mods increase moderation, it will only create more fires that can be fanned. The definition of hate speech is still considered blurred in our society, partly due to varying sensitivity levels, partly ignorance. Either way until there's a stricter consensus (personally I think we're seeing a cultural death), then the mods will find that half the community disagrees with almost all their decisions on these case(s).

Your solution is either ignore their acct/comments or to let them live with their reality. The fact that people will sit there though for hours and hours and argue with them their way of things is what fuels their resolve. Maybe go on a politics diet (lol) and give yourself maybe one of those really toxic excursions into a dark thread once a week or something if you're really just craving the intellectual stimulation... (I tried that though, but just quit entirely :laugh:)

For me, the point of posting lost it's decomping purpose after our election(s). It's bad enough we have to endure this presidency at home, that I have to read it on TiBB and everywhere else. Everything in the US right now is "Trump intolerance Trump hate Trump liars Trump fake news Trump Trump Trump". I read and listen (dropped cable TV) the news everyday and I've been having smaller epiphanies here and there about what some of this means not only for our local community but for the country/world. I would have not gained those new understandings, nor spent by my time well, by sitting behind a computer screen arguing with someone I don't even know enough about to judge entirely objectively.

Anyway I used to post at TiBB to decomp, share some posts, make fun of housemates, talk about the mundane... but off-season, it's mainly SD traffic and that tension did start to trickle to other boards. There's few places online now I can genuinely say are not suffering from the same exact problems though political discussion seems to have spilled into every facet of life.

For now, internet trolls from all corners (including our "President") have hijacked our culture and we won't be able to take back control until we ourselves change and understand how we collectively and individually are fanning the flames. (Hint: Less gaslighting)


Annie and Maru forever being the voices of reason :love:

[user104658]

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.

I dunno, the last few seasons I've noticed that the fan groups are almost totally identical to the SD teams :umm2:. We're doomed.

[Withano]

I dunno, the last few seasons I've noticed that the fan groups are almost totally identical to the SD teams :umm2:. We're doomed.

Hah really. I never cottoned on to that, but I suppose there might be a subconscious appeal to those you relate to most, so that makes sense.

Then again, TS... Stephen Bear, and Charlotte Crosby? One of us isn't a real leftie.

[Ammi]

You are right in what you're saying, and Sheriffs suggestion does seem pretty rational
my fear though is that because of the year weve had - theres quite an obvious 'left'/'right' divide on the forum, and will people report those that they basically consider to be part of their group? or turn a blind eye to it?
The divide is obvious even on this thread, with the 'left' applauding your words, and the 'right' suggesting that theyre confused and not seen what youve speak of.
In all honesty, (and this wont go down well) the only solution I see is more points per infraction.
But maybe the switchup of teams when people devote their life to BB will naturally give people a better perspective of where the line should be. The year-long political mess that the country has seen is finally coming to an end.. and people wont be divided into 'this group' or 'that group' anymore, they'd be divided into like 18 different groups of stanners.




....Maru..:lovedup:.. your posts always have so much thought in seeing so much from different perspectives....



...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...we are all living in a world of fear and totally united in that/as one with that...but we have different thoughts of what we think will bring the changes needed...pointing fingers at each other just makes for circles of pointless discussions/..(I know you've taught so it's like those awful situations when you can get into real negative times with a child and then neither of you are really listening to each other anymore because you need to find a point you can both begin on to achieve something positive..?..)...(probably an awful analogy but oh well..)...

..anyways I fairly much agree with Sheriff..if any specific single posts are thought to 'cross the line' and are found to be disturbing in some way then report them, there is no need to point fingers...it's just a pointless thing to do and just contributes equally as negatively to the whole thing...and of course, it's exactly what terrorism strives for/to divide us and try to envelope us in the 'hate' thrive on....

[user104658]

...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...

I have to admit that I'm guilty of assuming what the content of a post will be from the username. But is it not true that it's very surprising when that assumption is wrong? Not that I'm claiming to be unpredictable either. I guess the problem on a small forum is that we're all so entrenched that we genuinely DO know everyone's responses to everything, because we've already discussed everything to absolute death, or at least, we've already discussed to death the 4 or 5 topics that make up 99% of threads. Occasionally something different and interesting turns up. Maybe we need a new subforum; "Serious debates minus domestic politics, immigration and terrorism".

[jaxie]

....Maru..:lovedup:.. your posts always have so much thought in seeing so much from different perspectives....



...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...we are all living in a world of fear and totally united in that/as one with that...but we have different thoughts of what we think will bring the changes needed...pointing fingers at each other just makes for circles of pointless discussions/..(I know you've taught so it's like those awful situations when you can get into real negative times with a child and then neither of you are really listening to each other anymore because you need to find a point you can both begin on to achieve something positive..?..)...(probably an awful analogy but oh well..)...

..anyways I fairly much agree with Sheriff..if any specific single posts are thought to 'cross the line' and are found to be disturbing in some way then report them, there is no need to point fingers...it's just a pointless thing to do and just contributes equally as negatively to the whole thing...and of course, it's exactly what terrorism strives for/to divide us and try to envelope us in the 'hate' thrive on....

I'm feeling this a lot lately with my own posts. Had several pages of a thread the other day where people were assuming I'd said all kinds of unrelated things apart from what I actually said. And you think to yourself are people actually reading the words or is there some sort of weird forum translator I'm not party to that changes the words you typed but don't show you the changes.

I also find people will lump you in with the politics they think you share. Personally I have equal disillusion with both sides of the main parties and various of the other small groups but because I will speak up when things seem unjustified or unbalanced to me, and I'm pro Brexit, people think I'm on the right, although I could argue that a true socialist should be Brexit all the way. It seems to me that most people in politics are an insincere bunch of crooks. It's funny though if I say something nice or fair about May or the government I'm considered a raging Tory yet everyone totally missed my saying Corbyn came over well on the One Show the other day. :shrug: The forum gets more and more like the twilight zone every time I look in.

[Withano]

I'm feeling this a lot lately with my own posts. Had several pages of a thread the other day where people were assuming I'd said all kinds of unrelated things apart from what I actually said. And you think to yourself are people actually reading the words or is there some sort of weird forum translator I'm not party to that changes the words you typed but don't show you the changes.

I also find people will lump you in with the politics they think you share. Personally I have equal disillusion with both sides of the main parties and various of the other small groups but because I will speak up when things seem unjustified or unbalanced to me, and I'm pro Brexit, people think I'm on the right, although I could argue that a true socialist should be Brexit all the way. It seems to me that most people in politics are an insincere bunch of crooks. It's funny though if I say something nice or fair about May or the government I'm considered a raging Tory yet everyone totally missed my saying Corbyn came over well on the One Show the other day. :shrug: The forum gets more and more like the twilight zone every time I look in.

Ah I did put the 'left'/'right' analogy in inverted commas cos it was just used to fill in for my lack of a better phrase. I had no idea how you voted in the referundum, and I had no idea how you intended on voting in the election. I cant imagine many people identify as 'left' or 'right' on tibb, i was just making a point of it seeming like this side and the other side.

[Withano]

....Maru..:lovedup:.. your posts always have so much thought in seeing so much from different perspectives....



...I do sometimes wonder Withano, do people/posters even see each other anymore because what has stood out in the threads I have read is that people are just 'put into boxes' based on their politics...we are all living in a world of fear and totally united in that/as one with that...but we have different thoughts of what we think will bring the changes needed...pointing fingers at each other just makes for circles of pointless discussions/..(I know you've taught so it's like those awful situations when you can get into real negative times with a child and then neither of you are really listening to each other anymore because you need to find a point you can both begin on to achieve something positive..?..)...(probably an awful analogy but oh well..)...

..anyways I fairly much agree with Sheriff..if any specific single posts are thought to 'cross the line' and are found to be disturbing in some way then report them, there is no need to point fingers...it's just a pointless thing to do and just contributes equally as negatively to the whole thing...and of course, it's exactly what terrorism strives for/to divide us and try to envelope us in the 'hate' thrive on....

I know what you mean, Ammi. People quoting posts, and the response being 'this has nothing to do with my post' is becoming increasingly common, and maybe thats because people have predetermined the context. Ive been on both sides of that, I think a lot of people have.
I do think Big Brother might settle this a little, because the divide would be less obvious. 'Rights' and 'lefts' will unite in their opinions on some of the housemates, some of the time.
And then, after BB and CBB, I cant see any other political milestone causing huge upset to either side until the next US elections. :fc:

[Beso]

If we were sitting watchng all this on bb we would be pointing and laughing.

[user104658]

If we were sitting watchng all this on bb we would be pointing and laughing.

At whom, prithee?

[Northern Monkey]

I'm feeling this a lot lately with my own posts. Had several pages of a thread the other day where people were assuming I'd said all kinds of unrelated things apart from what I actually said. And you think to yourself are people actually reading the words or is there some sort of weird forum translator I'm not party to that changes the words you typed but don't show you the changes.

I also find people will lump you in with the politics they think you share. Personally I have equal disillusion with both sides of the main parties and various of the other small groups but because I will speak up when things seem unjustified or unbalanced to me, and I'm pro Brexit, people think I'm on the right, although I could argue that a true socialist should be Brexit all the way. It seems to me that most people in politics are an insincere bunch of crooks. It's funny though if I say something nice or fair about May or the government I'm considered a raging Tory yet everyone totally missed my saying Corbyn came over well on the One Show the other day. :shrug: The forum gets more and more like the twilight zone every time I look in.Your posts suggest to me that you think very much like i do.Except instead of a raging Tory i'm lumped into the 'fence sitter' camp:laugh:
That may actually be true however as i have slagged Corbyn and Abbott off no end but am voting Labour:laugh:
Tbh i am genuinely confused with left/right/centre.I'm not on either side.Strongly anti lefty liberal but agree with nationalisation but even more strongly anti Tory.

It's fecking confusing.I'm genuinely lost.

[user104658]

Your posts suggest to me that you think very much like i do.Except instead of a raging Tory i'm lumped into the 'fence sitter' camp:laugh:
That may actually be true however as i have slagged Corbyn and Abbott off no end but am voting Labour:laugh:
Tbh i am genuinely confused with left/right/centre.I'm not on either side.Strongly anti lefty liberal but agree with nationalisation but even more strongly anti Tory.

It's fecking confusing.I'm genuinely lost.

Meh. I'm lumped in as a Corbynite when I've never voted labour in my entire life, and as a Sturgeon stan when I'm actually against a huge chunk of SNP policy but recognise that - regardless of independence - keeping the SNP in power is the only way to stop the Conservatives shafting Scotland even harder than Thatcher did, when Scottish towns are still littered with the aftershocks of Thatcherism.

[Northern Monkey]

The world is showing cracks and it's reflected in here and some political forums I sometimes read.The differing opinions and points raised aren't much different wherever you go and from what i've seen this place seems tame compared to some.

[Beso]

At whom, prithee?

No...us the forum, acting like know alls arguing all the time.

[user104658]

No...us the forum, acting like know alls arguing all the time.

Thilly thauthages, the bunch of us :hehe:

[Kizzy]

I dislike the presumption those who find the sometimes OTT right wing voices distasteful just haven't considered where they are coming from :/

When you consider the left portion of the forum are lumped as the 'PC brigade' it's a bit rich to suggest that imo.

As said some DO cross the line, it's felt that on here as well as nationally that is becoming increasingly acceptable.
As a left wing voice of the forum I make no apologies for speaking as I find regarding the tone of certain threads by certain members.

[Brillopad]

I dislike the presumption those who find the sometimes OTT right wing voices distasteful just haven't considered where they are coming from :/

When you consider the left portion of the forum are lumped as the 'PC brigade' it's a bit rich to suggest that imo.

As said some DO cross the line, it's felt that on here as well as nationally that is becoming increasingly acceptable.
As a left wing voice of the forum I make no apologies for speaking as I find regarding the tone of certain threads by certain members.

Let me get this right - so some can speak as they find on some subjects - but only if approved by you. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Hey you can say what you like, if it highlights your prejudice and I comment on that you can own it or don't, that's your issue.

[Brillopad]

Hey you can say what you like, if it highlights your prejudice and I comment on that you can own it or don't, that's your issue.

As long as it works both ways - in my experience it rarely does.

[Kizzy]

That's fine ... I didn't expect you to attempt to see things from MY perspective. I am the PC.

[Brillopad]

All this drama because some only support 'free speech' when it agrees with them. Then be sure to make it as combatant as you can with a fistful of ********** in every paragraph. Way to go!

[Marsh.]

At the end of the day, some people are just speaking sense and from the heart, about our current predicament.

Its people's opinions. This is a forum, by definition, a discussion of opinions. Just because you hypersensitively perceive them to be racist doesn't mean they are.

Some people don't bury their heads in the sand, and they should not be accused of evil intent for not doing so.

No, there is no "sense" to be had. Those comments are coming from a place of bigotry and hatred.

[DemolitionRed]

I use another forum group where the left have their own group and discuss left wing politics and the right have their own group and discuss right wing politics. Sometimes the left will wander into the right wing group and visa versa and that's when things get heated but when it all gets too much, they can return to their own group and get their sense of belonging back.

This is a very small forum group and so its probably not possible and anyway, I think a lot of people only come here because they enjoy an argument. I often think, this place isn't a healthy or life realistic environment. People do say things online that they would only say in a hushed voice with a like minded person, if they were out in say, Costa coffee. I mean, if I heard someone on the tube speaking like some of the people on here sometimes speak, I'd be nailing their bottom lip to the floor and I'm not even a violent person.

I'm not really sure why I come here. I mean, I've tried to leave once or twice but I always end up coming back. Perhaps I thrive on the frustration hehe!

[Cherie]

I use another forum group where the left have their own group and discuss left wing politics and the right have their own group and discuss right wing politics. Sometimes the left will wander into the right wing group and visa versa and that's when things get heated but when it all gets too much, they can return to their own group and get their sense of belonging back.

This is a very small forum group and so its probably not possible and anyway, I think a lot of people only come here because they enjoy an argument. I often think, this place isn't a healthy or life realistic environment. People do say things online that they would only say in a hushed voice with a like minded person, if they were out in say, Costa coffee. I mean, if I heard someone on the tube speaking like some of the people on here sometimes speak, I'd be nailing their bottom lip to the floor and I'm not even a violent person.

I'm not really sure why I come here. I mean, I've tried to leave once or twice but I always end up coming back. Perhaps I thrive on the frustration hehe!

Could you take TS to this forum so he can mingle with like minded people I fear he will do himself a mischief on here

[user104658]

I'm not really sure why I come here.

I keep asking myself this and the only concrete reasons I've been able to come up with are "boredom" and "habit" :umm2:.

[Cherie]

Isn't DM always saying how tame it is in here and how other forums let her speak her mind, yet she is always threatening people with ignore so we can't be that tame..I'm confused :hee:

[Northern Monkey]

I use another forum group where the left have their own group and discuss left wing politics and the right have their own group and discuss right wing politics. Sometimes the left will wander into the right wing group and visa versa and that's when things get heated but when it all gets too much, they can return to their own group and get their sense of belonging back.

This is a very small forum group and so its probably not possible and anyway, I think a lot of people only come here because they enjoy an argument. I often think, this place isn't a healthy or life realistic environment. People do say things online that they would only say in a hushed voice with a like minded person, if they were out in say, Costa coffee. I mean, if I heard someone on the tube speaking like some of the people on here sometimes speak, I'd be nailing their bottom lip to the floor and I'm not even a violent person.

I'm not really sure why I come here. I mean, I've tried to leave once or twice but I always end up coming back. Perhaps I thrive on the frustration hehe!

That forum sounds like fun.Kind of small skirmish attacks into the opposite camp instead of all out war.What do the centrists do though?

[Cherie]

That forum sounds like fun.Kind of small skirmish attacks into the opposite camp instead of all out war.What do the centrists do though?

They have to make do with sitting in the lobby?

[Withano]

That forum sounds like fun.Kind of small skirmish attacks into the opposite camp instead of all out war.What do the centrists do though?

No such thing as centrists, they're just spies that feed information to their real side about all the dumb stuff the other side are saying.

[Northern Monkey]

They have to make do with sitting in the lobby?

They sit on the fence that divides the two sides

[Mystic Mock]

...:love:..I recall reading many articles after the unthinkable happened of Donald Trump being elected..?...and the thing that came across more than anything else was how 'invisible' many had felt in their fears and concerns and in their problems and how in-listened to they felt they were...that I think is a very 'dangerous world' to live in ....just look where it's all leading atm for the whole human race, how much it's contributing....

Tbf Donald Trump didn't even get the most votes from the American people, it was the small rural States that swung him a narrow win.

[Mystic Mock]

I know what you mean, Ammi. People quoting posts, and the response being 'this has nothing to do with my post' is becoming increasingly common, and maybe thats because people have predetermined the context. Ive been on both sides of that, I think a lot of people have.
I do think Big Brother might settle this a little, because the divide would be less obvious. 'Rights' and 'lefts' will unite in their opinions on some of the housemates, some of the time.
And then, after BB and CBB, I cant see any other political milestone causing huge upset to either side until the next US elections. :fc:

Big Brother I tend to find normally can have me support people that I would be horrified at in real life alot of the time with their views.:joker:

I mean I supported Helen Wood in BB15.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

All this drama because some only support 'free speech' when it agrees with them. Then be sure to make it as combatant as you can with a fistful of ********** in every paragraph. Way to go!

I support people to say prejudice things if they want to, but they should also expect that alot of people will also voice their own opinions against those views.

[user104658]

Big Brother I tend to find normally can have me support people that I would be horrified at in real life alot of the time with their views.:joker:

I mean I supported Helen Wood in BB15.:laugh:


True, I don't support BB housemates because I like them as people at all, but because I like the impact they have on the house or the interesting things they bring out in others. Bear is the prime example, really. I couldn't be around the guy for long in real life, but the things he brought out in the other housemates... that's what made him absolute gold. Same with Kim Woodburn etc. - the best part about her as a housemate was watching the others implode trying to deal with her.

It's those ones who paint on a facade of being "the good guys" that I find really awful and watching that shell crack and all of that self-important ego and nastiness start to spill out that is the best part of BB. So anyone who can make that happen gets my support :hee:.

[Kizzy]

All this drama because some only support 'free speech' when it agrees with them. Then be sure to make it as combatant as you can with a fistful of ********** in every paragraph. Way to go!

Not at all free speech and hate speech are VERY different things. Katie Hopkins for instance crossed that line with her comment that saw her sacked from her very influential position.
I admire free speech and encourage it, that was not it.
All that has been suggested is some posts can skirt a little to close to that line than is comfortable, and with increasing frequency.

[user104658]

Not at all free speech and hate speech are VERY different things. Katie Hopkins for instance crossed that line with her comment that saw her sacked from her very influential position.
I admire free speech and encourage it, that was not it.
All that has been suggesting is some posts can skirt a little to close to that line than is comfortable, and with increasing frequency.

There just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that "free speech" means "saying literally whatever you want, whenever you want".

That's not what it means and it never has been :think:.

[Northern Monkey]

Honestly this place is tame.
I was just reading a post on another forum saying that this is how muslims celebrate ramadan by cutting throats,stabbing people,blowing themselves up and that mayor Khan is having a very happy ramadan.

TIBB has absolutely nothing to worry about.

[Maru]

There just seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that "free speech" means "saying literally whatever you want, whenever you want".

That's not what it means and it never has been :think:.

Actually, it is freedom of speech. At least in the US. I don't know about UK and their laws, but I'm curious if there is a difference between our implementation of freedom of speech and other countries...

Hate speech falls under freedom of speech. The two overlap. Unless it's harassment, a threat (in other words, a hate crime). Hate speech is considered freedom of expression.

If hate speech weren't Freedom of Speech, many of these hate groups would've been jailed long ago. That's why for many years groups like the KKK and Black Panthers existed, they didn't pose any particular threat. Kind of the like biker gangs here that support anarchy and all kinds of crazy ****. They blended in with the public, and many of them were apart of these things, but they didn't generally mess with other people unless you mess with them. Some of them have a strict codes and they respond fairly tolerantly all considering. (I met one named Prozac once in Ocean City, he gave me Marti Gras beeds (it's wasn't even Mardis Gras :laugh:) and he was insistant that he would not require me to show him my boobs :laugh:... all while the rest of gang stood nearby, drinking and partying, while also "assessing" myself and my husband)

Those groups have become more "agitated" as hard left propaganda has became or is being perceived (I'm not sure which tbh) more mainstream. Not only are those groups increasing, but newer ones cropping up just as quickly. Only when they feel their way of life is under attack do they act out this way... similarly, it's only "militarizing" (generally not literally) our younger generations to join these groups, since social media is a great platform for them to expand their propaganda and grow at record paces... oh, similar to terrorist groups.

I don't necessarily have to agree with the KKK or the Black Panthers, but for a long time you could run into these groups here and they didn't try to force you to think one way or another... they weren't in hiding though and the worst they got were some mean comments, in which they responded in kind.

Honestly, if the government (or even the mods) were to start prosecuting hate speech and got a little too thorough with it, I think most TiBB posts would be banned if it that's any indicator :laugh:

This is why we allow for the rights of others to express themselves... ideas themselves aren't themselves harmful. It's when we retaliate and respond similarly (with hate speech of our own) against these groups and give them a reason to "militarize" their words by actions (again, not always literally)... we actually feed into their entire narrative.

There are probably few in these groups that actually commit crimes or really rise to the extremes of their verbal rhetoric. Just like 99% of the trolls online who send death threats wouldn't actually do anything... it's of no harm to us and we should allow them the room to vocalize. Otherwise, you risk (unintentionally) creating a pressure cooker for the 1%'s (the Timothy McVay's) to actually create the toxic brew that is inevitably delivered to the public when the realities of their atrocities

‘Hate speech is not protected by the First Amendment,’ Portland mayor says. He’s wrong.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/30/hate-speech-is-not-protected-by-the-first-amendment-oregon-mayor-says-hes-wrong/


My husband works with these 1%'s (and 99%s) in his job (mental health detentions). He has always said "money is obviously no good here", but "respect is currency"... he may not agree with them. He may even be thoroughly disgusted by some of them. He is threatened on a daily basis in extreme details, actual people who have murdered... as long as you keep a rapport, help each other to get through the checks, the forced medication, the other more difficult aspects of the job (like forced removals, investigating suicide risk, abuse, etc...)

He is one of the most vulnerable spots to be in the system because he's not allowed to view patient records (so he doesn't know what diseases they are carrying or their psychic profile), he is expected to deliver top notch care to in some cases, hardened criminals (where our inadequate health care services have failed) ... but at the same time, he are not armed. He has OC Spray. That's it.

He is expected to talk them down... and some of them hate him for simply talking to them, but it's required by his job. So yeah... all the rhetoric that happens on the outside... my husband gets to see it everyday when it boils over. If he can manage to be tolerant and respectful (which again--respect is currency with many of these individuals)... then I think some people need to think about the big picture a little bit more, whether it even affects them at all, and if in fact they are feeding into a narrative that is inevitably "arming" the worst of these individuals to commit horrid cries. There are people actually in harms way of the 1% of these extreme groups... when we're worrying about the worst of what someone said on the internet, who for all intents and purposes, is might at best be an self-obsessed egotist searching for attention... and we're giving them that provocation to use (often) careless language used in ignorance that can be used, abused and twisted by actually truly dangerous individuals... the latter is who you should really be worried about. (Though I don't think that TiBB is an efficient platform for spreading anything political... mostly referring to places like Twitter, etc)

[Maru]

Kathy Griffin's lawyer's (first 11-12 minutes or so) arguments at the press conference about the whole Trump decapitated head "It's art" thing (https://www.google.com/search?q=Trump+decapitated+photo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) is a good example of why we should all be in favor of keeping the laws as they are...

Now, while I instinctively know the lawyers themselves are probably on some level, opportunists... (Lisa Bloom is Gloria Allred's daughter if that's any indicator). Though after hearing her angle and the way she took it, I'm on board.

BTW, the moral part of me thought this picture was way over the line... (though it did scratch my edgy art itch a bit)

pcb2_jtO5sY

[user104658]

I do understand what you're saying Maru, I really do, but it's where I have to come back to the gist of one of my very first posts; that there are TWO options... the first, and honestly, my preferred option being allow people to say what they want but allow others the right to respond with their opinions. Their true opinions - about that person - for saying the things they are saying. In my opinion, this is essential to maintaining the sort of equilibrium you're talking about; people naturally moderate their own words when they know they can be personally called out on them. If they feel like they can go all out without fear of anyone being able to say anything to them, directly, in return... then that is exactly what they will do.

IF that's not possible, then there needs to be some sort of restriction on how far people are allowed to go with what they are saying.

The current situation on TiBB is not the former or the latter, and obviously this is taken to extremes and I'm not comparing anyone here to the KKK, but;

To use your examples...

It's like the KKK having the right to say whatever they want and share whatever views they want, then someone saying "Mr KKK, these views are racist. You are a racist."... and that person then being arrested for calling the KKK member a racist.

It comes down to this: "full free speech if you're speaking in general, or about a non-forum person, but absolutely ZERO free speech when it comes to talking about forum members." You flat out can't. At all. It's a lopsided system that, I will say again, is going to spiral further out of control in terms of the sorts of opinions that are being posted.

I suppose to go back to real-world allegories you could suggest that this is much like freedom of speech vs. defamation... but then, it's not defamation if the comments about an individual are opinions based on facts and in the "public interest". The ability to point out racism and other prejudice in specific members is arguably both.

[JTM45]

That's why for many years groups like the KKK and Black Panthers existed, they didn't pose any particular threat.

No threat ?

I'm not so sure the people they lynched or dragged to their deaths behind pickups or the civil rights workers they murdered would agree with you on that one.:think:

[Kizzy]

Actually, it is freedom of speech. At least in the US. I don't know about UK and their laws, but I'm curious if there is a difference between our implementation of freedom of speech and other countries...

Hate speech falls under freedom of speech. The two overlap. Unless it's harassment, a threat (in other words, a hate crime). Hate speech is considered freedom of expression.

If hate speech weren't Freedom of Speech, many of these hate groups would've been jailed long ago. That's why for many years groups like the KKK and Black Panthers existed, they didn't pose any particular threat. Kind of the like biker gangs here that support anarchy and all kinds of crazy ****. They blended in with the public, and many of them were apart of these things, but they didn't generally mess with other people unless you mess with them. Some of them have a strict codes and they respond fairly tolerantly all considering. (I met one named Prozac once in Ocean City, he gave me Marti Gras beeds (it's wasn't even Mardis Gras :laugh:) and he was insistant that he would not require me to show him my boobs :laugh:... all while the rest of gang stood nearby, drinking and partying, while also "assessing" myself and my husband)

Those groups have become more "agitated" as hard left propaganda has became or is being perceived (I'm not sure which tbh) more mainstream. Not only are those groups increasing, but newer ones cropping up just as quickly. Only when they feel their way of life is under attack do they act out this way... similarly, it's only "militarizing" (generally not literally) our younger generations to join these groups, since social media is a great platform for them to expand their propaganda and grow at record paces... oh, similar to terrorist groups.

I don't necessarily have to agree with the KKK or the Black Panthers, but for a long time you could run into these groups here and they didn't try to force you to think one way or another... they weren't in hiding though and the worst they got were some mean comments, in which they responded in kind.

Honestly, if the government (or even the mods) were to start prosecuting hate speech and got a little too thorough with it, I think most TiBB posts would be banned if it that's any indicator :laugh:

This is why we allow for the rights of others to express themselves... ideas themselves aren't themselves harmful. It's when we retaliate and respond similarly (with hate speech of our own) against these groups and give them a reason to "militarize" their words by actions (again, not always literally)... we actually feed into their entire narrative.

There are probably few in these groups that actually commit crimes or really rise to the extremes of their verbal rhetoric. Just like 99% of the trolls online who send death threats wouldn't actually do anything... it's of no harm to us and we should allow them the room to vocalize. Otherwise, you risk (unintentionally) creating a pressure cooker for the 1%'s (the Timothy McVay's) to actually create the toxic brew that is inevitably delivered to the public when the realities of their atrocities

‘Hate speech is not protected by the First Amendment,’ Portland mayor says. He’s wrong.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/30/hate-speech-is-not-protected-by-the-first-amendment-oregon-mayor-says-hes-wrong/


My husband works with these 1%'s (and 99%s) in his job (mental health detentions). He has always said "money is obviously no good here", but "respect is currency"... he may not agree with them. He may even be thoroughly disgusted by some of them. He is threatened on a daily basis in extreme details, actual people who have murdered... as long as you keep a rapport, help each other to get through the checks, the forced medication, the other more difficult aspects of the job (like forced removals, investigating suicide risk, abuse, etc...)

He is one of the most vulnerable spots to be in the system because he's not allowed to view patient records (so he doesn't know what diseases they are carrying or their psychic profile), he is expected to deliver top notch care to in some cases, hardened criminals (where our inadequate health care services have failed) ... but at the same time, he are not armed. He has OC Spray. That's it.

He is expected to talk them down... and some of them hate him for simply talking to them, but it's required by his job. So yeah... all the rhetoric that happens on the outside... my husband gets to see it everyday when it boils over. If he can manage to be tolerant and respectful (which again--respect is currency with many of these individuals)... then I think some people need to think about the big picture a little bit more, whether it even affects them at all, and if in fact they are feeding into a narrative that is inevitably "arming" the worst of these individuals to commit horrid cries. There are people actually in harms way of the 1% of these extreme groups... when we're worrying about the worst of what someone said on the internet, who for all intents and purposes, is might at best be an self-obsessed egotist searching for attention... and we're giving them that provocation to use (often) careless language used in ignorance that can be used, abused and twisted by actually truly dangerous individuals... the latter is who you should really be worried about. (Though I don't think that TiBB is an efficient platform for spreading anything political... mostly referring to places like Twitter, etc)

Define 'hard left propaganda'... Do you mean social policy?

Our hate laws relate specifically to incitement,harrassment, discrimination, violence, bullying and intimidation so no it doesn't overlap with free speech at all.

Tibb may not be the largest platform however that is not to say that means it is ok to allow discrimination and prejudice to fester. I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your 1% analogy, that we should allow this !% to vent along with the 99% so they don't snap an start acting on their extreme views?

[Beso]

I do understand what you're saying Maru, I really do, but it's where I have to come back to the gist of one of my very first posts; that there are TWO options... the first, and honestly, my preferred option being allow people to say what they want but allow others the right to respond with their opinions. Their true opinions - about that person - for saying the things they are saying. In my opinion, this is essential to maintaining the sort of equilibrium you're talking about; people naturally moderate their own words when they know they can be personally called out on them. If they feel like they can go all out without fear of anyone being able to say anything to them, directly, in return... then that is exactly what they will do.

IF that's not possible, then there needs to be some sort of restriction on how far people are allowed to go with what they are saying.

The current situation on TiBB is not the former or the latter, and obviously this is taken to extremes and I'm not comparing anyone here to the KKK, but;

To use your examples...

It's like the KKK having the right to say whatever they want and share whatever views they want, then someone saying "Mr KKK, these views are racist. You are a racist."... and that person then being arrested for calling the KKK member a racist.

It comes down to this: "full free speech if you're speaking in general, or about a non-forum person, but absolutely ZERO free speech when it comes to talking about forum members." You flat out can't. At all. It's a lopsided system that, I will say again, is going to spiral further out of control in terms of the sorts of opinions that are being posted.

I suppose to go back to real-world allegories you could suggest that this is much like freedom of speech vs. defamation... but then, it's not defamation if the comments about an individual are opinions based on facts and in the "public interest". The ability to point out racism and other prejudice in specific members is arguably both.


It would be difficult to do that under the current forum age restriction due to the chances of bullying occuring.

[user104658]

It would be difficult to do that under the current forum age restriction due to the chances of bullying occuring.

Is there anyone under 18 posting regularly in SD? I doubt it, but I take your point for the other forums. Regardless, it would be pretty obvious if a young member was being bullied, and going back to the real-world symbolism again, I'm pretty sure that even in the US verbal bullying isn't protected under freedom of speech.

[Maru]

I do understand what you're saying Maru, I really do, but it's where I have to come back to the gist of one of my very first posts; that there are TWO options... the first, and honestly, my preferred option being allow people to say what they want but allow others the right to respond with their opinions. Their true opinions - about that person - for saying the things they are saying. In my opinion, this is essential to maintaining the sort of equilibrium you're talking about; people naturally moderate their own words when they know they can be personally called out on them. If they feel like they can go all out without fear of anyone being able to say anything to them, directly, in return... then that is exactly what they will do.

If that's not possible, then there needs to be some sort of restriction on how far people are allowed to go with what they are saying.

The current situation on TiBB is not the former or the latter, and obviously this is taken to extremes and I'm not comparing anyone here to the KKK, but;

To use your examples...

It's like the KKK having the right to say whatever they want and share whatever views they want, then someone saying "Mr KKK, these views are racist. You are a racist."... and that person then being arrested for calling the KKK member a racist.

It comes down to this: "full free speech if you're speaking in general, or about a non-forum person, but absolutely ZERO free speech when it comes to talking about forum members." You flat out can't. At all. It's a lopsided system that, I will say again, is going to spiral further out of control in terms of the sorts of opinions that are being posted.

I suppose to go back to real-world allegories you could suggest that this is much like freedom of speech vs. defamation... but then, it's not defamation if the comments about an individual are opinions based on facts and in the "public interest". The ability to point out racism and other prejudice in specific members is arguably both.

I agree with you in general, I wish for the first option. I think that is more plausible when the community has a good consensus of where the actual real line is... like yeah this does not belong here on "our" site... doesn't seem feasible from what little I've read in SD recently.

But with SD and the state of affairs of our politics, it's forcing again--places like this to push their policies to the limit. The problem, people will associate the actions of the moderators at large as "taking sides". Somehow they are personally negligent. Whether it's the truth or not, doesn't matter, it's the appearance... it happened before I stopped posting. Remember the members who claimed they were personally being targetted... now we're seeing the opposite side of the table... worst part, the quality of SD posts (again, what little I've read)... seems to be about the same as when I quit posting, so what was really the point? So yeah, not much improvement there... I don't think there's much the moderators can do at this point... the best thing to do would honestly be to ignore these posters if they're being this oppressive with their views. I actually made a little WebExtensions plugin not too long before I stopped posting that let me collapse quotes (and quotes that referenced my little baddies) from the annoying posters and other things... partially for fun so I could give people funny names, but yeah... but yeah it's just better to grow a thicker skin... this is the world we are living in now. But truthfully, you're about where I was before I quit posting... I don't like to try to push my views on others or control their views (I'm boring I know)... but it's just because it's banging your head in a wall. It's not accomplishing much but playing into the dumb rat race that the stereotypes on this board are constantly reinforcing.

But yeah I feel you.

No threat ?

I'm not so sure the people they lynched or dragged to their deaths behind pickups or the civil rights workers they murdered would agree with you on that one.:think:

lmao. You make a great point. I'm mainly looking backwards when many of these movements are more "dormant". Back then, I think hate groups were closer to gangs... yes, they were there. But you didn't talk about them every five minutes, nor did you pay them any mind... yes, they commit crimes, because they have to prove loyalty to each other and their "values", and all that mess... but in the end, most people--unless you were unlucky to live in the wrong place (or state) or just happen to be in the wrong place or wrong time, you didn't feel like you were preyed upon. And because they made it relatively obvious where they hung out, where their "community" was... you knew these groups were territorial and to stay out of their perimeter. Now, these things live underneath every rock, nook and cranny... it's because harder to detect because now the kids and social media are involving people from all walks of life, some people who don't know they're being encouraged to have strong words with the opposition group in order to bolster some lesser than honorable intentions towards our own society (edit)... Now it's a resurgence and is a very serious thing, they are pushing their rhetoric and narrative, accompanying this with violence... very similar to terrorism... personally I see no difference in the way they operate.

I do not condone racism, and I make that clear when it is the topic in a thread... but they pigeon hole oppositional groups to get them to act out, because that creates an air of competition... there are kids who are buying into this rhetoric and signing up for this sh*t. The other day, I was standing outside talking to an African American police officer (and I'm caucasian fyi), and some kids in their car drove by screaming "Black Power!..." It didn't shock me or anything (it's whatever)... it's just I know the area I'm in, there are gangs because we are near the city.. and I'm sad that this is how kids are spending their time and mental energy. But they're being told they're doing something good for their group and the people who are actually looking out for them... gangs have always operate this way, sure, but it's the more psychotic versions of these groups that are getting the national intents... and those are the people we don't want to use our own words against us. We have to take back the power of our words and make sure too that our actions best describe this. We have to do what we say... not just say what we intend to do. That includes, listening to these groups--whether we agree with or them or not, and figure out what we are doing wrong (as a society) to not address these needs... why are they turning to hate groups and gangs to protect their communities? Why can't they trust the police to do this? What are we doing wrong that we should be doing better? (This isn't to start that debate, just saying where I approach things in general).

It's a sad state of affairs... all around, but we all are living together--all scared for the future, maybe for different reasons... but we are all operating out of fear or otherwise in avoidance of it (to some degree) about how we approach the future... we're all in that boat together :love:

[Maru]

Is there anyone under 18 posting regularly in SD? I doubt it, but I take your point for the other forums. Regardless, it would be pretty obvious if a young member was being bullied, and going back to the real-world symbolism again, I'm pretty sure that even in the US verbal bullying isn't protected under freedom of speech.

Some people's mentalities here are under 18 :laugh:

[Alf]

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[user104658]

Some people's mentalities here are under 18 :laugh:

I feel like mine lurches wildly between 15 and 50 :think:.