Top Tory admits debate on abortion possible

[Scarlett.]

A former Tory minister has said MPs could vote to reduce time limits on abortion after Theresa May was forced to strike a deal with the socially hardline DUP .

Former Northern Ireland secretary Owen Paterson suggested the current 24-week time limit could be up for debate after the PM said she would form an alliance with the right-wing party, which has 10 seats in the Commons, to prop up her minority administration.

Abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland unless a woman’s life is in danger or there is a serious or permanent risk to her mental or physical health.

The DUP has a long-held anti-abortion stance and has repeatedly opposed attempts to legalise it.

Last year, its leader Arlene Foster said: “I would not want abortion to be as freely available here as it is in England.”

Owen Paterson told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I don't see many major social issues coming up in the next parliament.

"You might get a debate I suppose on further reduction of abortion times as medical science advances."

The Green Party have warned that a pact between the two parties would put women's rights at risk.

Amelia Womack, deputy leader of the Green Party, said: “The Tory-DUP coalition of cruelty is bad news for women.

"We may have seen a record number of women gain seats in the Parliament this week, but the 10 MPs of the anti-abortion, anti-equal marriage DUP look set to have a disproportionate influence which should concern us all.

“The DUP’s obstruction to legal abortion in Northern Ireland has left many women in dire circumstances, forced to travel to England where they are not entitled to NHS-funded terminations or face prosecution for seeking help at home.

“It is deeply concerning that a party responsible for so much pain could be in a position to exert so much influence. Women’s rights are under threat and we must work together to stop a lurch to the right under a Tory-DUP alliance.”

Mr Paterson also tried to allay fears that repealing gay rights would not be up for discussion since the DUP has consistently blocked th introduction of gay marriage.

Northern Ireland is the only part of the British Isles where same-sex marriage remains outlawed.


The Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-tory-admits-debate-abortion-10597655)

[MB.]

"Don't vote for Corbyn, he'll take the country back to the 70s!"

-takes the country back to the Middle Ages-

[Brillopad]

The Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-tory-admits-debate-abortion-10597655)

Scaremongering by those opposed to May and the DUP.

At worst the time limit might be reduced, which may not be a bad thing. Six months is very late. A child is viable at that point and I can see few reasons why someone would leave it that late.

[Scarlett.]

Scaremongering by those opposed to May and the DUP.

At worst the time limit might be reduced, which may not be a bad thing. Six months is very late. A child is viable at that point and I can see few reasons why someone would leave it that late.

The Mirror may be reporting it, but a TOP TORY MINISTER actually said it.

[Withano]

I'm so confused how they got 10 seats in the first place.
Its really hard to suggest they shouldnt be where they are, these were always the rules. More than 50% of constituencies are happy, and thats fair.. i just dont understand how the majority of ten constituencies voted them.

[Withano]

Scaremongering by those opposed to May and the DUP.

At worst the time limit might be reduced, which may not be a bad thing. Six months is very late. A child is viable at that point and I can see few reasons why someone would leave it that late.

Do you like the DUP?

[Brillopad]

Do you like the DUP?

Didn't even know who they were until yesterday - so please don't resort to all that 'hard right' garbage. They are a necessity at this time end of.

On the other hand Corbyn's dodgy links with terrorists span decades.

[Crimson Dynamo]

A former Tory minister has said MPs could vote to reduce time limits on abortion


You need to understand journalism here


The Mirror editior wants to do stories on the DUP to trigger its readers so he/she briefs the journos to go for angles. Call former ministers etc and get them to speculate on stuff and then present it as fact as most readers ignore could and may and just read it as WILL

its just a basic baiting article

[Oliver_W]

"You might get a debate I suppose on further reduction of abortion times as medical science advances."
Sounds terrifying, yeah. We might possibly maybe sorta get a debate about shortening the time women have to get an abortion. Oh noes.

Amelia Womack, deputy leader of the Green Party, said: “The Tory-DUP coalition of cruelty is bad news for women.
Lol, they have two leaders, a deputy leader, but one MP. Let's pay them bare attention.

[Tom4784]

Didn't even know who they were until yesterday - so please don't resort to all that 'hard right' garbage. They are a necessity at this time end of.

On the other hand Corbyn's dodgy links with terrorists span decades.

Your Jeremy Corbyn accusations hold no weight when you are keen to ignore May's selling of weapons to the middle east. Utterly hypocritical.

[Tregard]

Didn't even know who they were until yesterday - so please don't resort to all that 'hard right' garbage. They are a necessity at this time end of.

On the other hand Corbyn's dodgy links with terrorists span decades.

Aligning yourself with the DUP to save your own hide is not a necessity

Scaremongering by those opposed to May and the DUP.

FWIW, "people opposed to the DUP" is just people with morals and common sense

[Tom4784]

Nobody who truly believe in feminism could bring themselves to accept a coalition with the DUP. They are famously anti-women's rights.

[Brillopad]

Aligning yourself with the DUP to save your own hide is not a necessity



FWIW, "people opposed to the DUP" is just people with morals and common sense

And Corbyn wouldn't. If not them Sinn Fein. He would have alligned with anyone if it had made him PM. Let's not try to suggest he is any more moral than you would have us believe May is. When it comes to winning they are all the same.

[Withano]

Didn't even know who they were until yesterday - so please don't resort to all that 'hard right' garbage. They are a necessity at this time end of.

On the other hand Corbyn's dodgy links with terrorists span decades.

I was just asking! They are necessary, its the only way to get a majority in government. But I'd imagine torys and labour supporters alike hate this.

[Brillopad]

Nobody who truly believe in feminism could bring themselves to accept a coalition with the DUP. They are famously anti-women's rights.

Again scaremongering - the DUPs views on feminism will have no impact in Britain.

[Oliver_W]

Your Jeremy Corbyn accusations hold no weight when you are keen to ignore May's selling of weapons to the middle east. Utterly hypocritical.

I think the selling weapons to the Saudis thing gets more attention than it's worth. What would happen if we stopped:
- We'd be down a fair bit of money
- We'd have even more reason to be in the bad books of people who fund terror
- They would just buy weapons from someone else anyway
I don't think the above is worth it just to moralise.

[Denver]

It is worrying how any would want a 24 week old child who can survive at birth being killed

[bots]

Lets be quite clear. Ruth, the conservative leader in Scotland can simply direct all her MP's to vote down the government if they were to try anything in anyway dodgy. Its simply not possible for any legislation that is in anyway controversial to get passed while a minority government is in place. Whether the government like it or not, their hands are now tied until a party emerges after an election with a working majority.

This is nothing more than scaremongering.

[Denver]

I believe only rape victims should get abortions anyway

[Tom4784]

Again scaremongering - the DUPs views on feminism will have no impact in Britain.

Of course they ****ing do, they are likely going to be part of a coalition that will run the country, if you don't think that their bigoted views won't have an impact then you are burying your head in the sand.

[Oliver_W]

I believe only rape victims should get abortions anyway

Maybe not just rape, things like risk of life-affecting conditions, death for either the mother or child, or incest.

[Oliver_W]

Of course they ****ing do, they are likely going to be part of a coalition that will run the country, if you don't think that their bigoted views won't have an impact then you are burying your head in the sand.

So if legislature which affects women is proposed by them, do you think the Commons would vote it through?

[Denver]

Maybe not just rape, things like risk of life-affecting conditions, death for either the mother or child, or incest.

That is already a different law i think?

[Tom4784]

I believe only rape victims should get abortions anyway

It's a good thing you'll never know power then isn't it? Such a clause is plain silly, what would be your suggestion for all the children that would likely find their way into the system because their parents aren't ready to be parents or are incapable of doing so due to various circumstances? What about unfit parents that would keep the child? If you get rid of abortion then the system will become flooded and cases of abuse and neglect would likely skyrocket.

The idea of illegalising abortion is barbaric and short sighted.

[Tom4784]

So if legislature which affects women is proposed by them, do you think the Commons would vote it through?

It'll have the effect of normalising the idea that women's and gay rights could be repealed, a coalition legitimises the DUP. The coalition will be dangerous as **** when it comes to promoting abusive attitudes towards women and the LGBT.

Look at the EU and how the result had the effect of increasing racially charged hate crimes in it's wake. People looked at Brexit and thought that their bigotry was justified and a similar thing will likely happen here.

[Denver]

It's a good thing you'll never know power then isn't it? Such a clause is plain silly, what would be your suggestion for all the children that would likely find their way into the system because their parents aren't ready to be parents or are incapable of doing so due to various circumstances? What about unfit parents that would keep the child? If you get rid of abortion then the system will become flooded and cases of abuse and neglect would likely skyrocket.

The idea of illegalising abortion is barbaric and short sighted.

If you dont want a child use contraception or dont have sex simply

[Tom4784]

If you dont want a child use contraception or dont have sex simply

Good solutions there, when are you running for office?

Contraception is not 100% safe and the idea of people not having sex to appease a man who wants to remove the option of choice away from women is just plain silly.

The abortion laws are not broken, stop trying to fix them.

[Denver]

Good solutions there, when are you running for office?

Contraception is not 100% safe and the idea of people not having sex to appease a man who wants to remove the option of choice away from women is just plain silly.

The abortion laws are not broken, stop trying to fix them.
There is also a morning after pill.

Abortions are use as a way to not have safe sex because the nhs will help you get rid of the child anyway.

Unless its a better reason then i dont want a child they should not be entitled to one

[Tom4784]

There is also a morning after pill.

Abortions are use as a way to not have safe sex because the nhs will help you get rid of the child anyway.

Unless its a better reason then i dont want a child they should not be entitled to one

Well that's hypocritical for a start, why is the morning after pill fine but not abortion?

You don't really understand abortion and the effect it can have on people, do you? It's rarely a case of 'oh, I got knocked up, time to get an abo-bo!' An abortion is a difficult choice to make and can often have a lasting effect on women who choose to have one. It is never an easy choice and most people would not consider it just another form of contraception.

At the end of the day, you are just another man trying to tell women what they can or can't do with their own bodies.

[Denver]

Well that's hypocritical for a start, why is the morning after pill fine but not abortion?

You don't really understand abortion and the effect it can have on people, do you? It's rarely a case of 'oh, I got knocked up, time to get an abo-bo!' An abortion is a difficult choice to make and can often have a lasting effect on women who choose to have one. It is never an easy choice and most people would not consider it just another form of contraception.

At the end of the day, you are just another man trying to tell women what they can or can't do with their own bodies.

How are you as a mod allowed to get away with saying stuff like this but ban any you dont like who says similar?

[joeysteele]

Aligning yourself with the DUP to save your own hide is not a necessity



FWIW, "people opposed to the DUP" is just people with morals and common sense

Any party aligning with the extreme and uncompromising DUP are wrong in my view.

This Party helps keep ashes of the troubles in Northern Ireland recalled.
They moan the orange marchers cannot get to March down some Catholic areas, which denies them their near 'baiting' activities.

I detest the DUP, they are a rigid dinosaur parry stuck in some belief of religious hardline attitudes and intolerance.

Let them vote in the UK parliament by all means when democratically elected.
However make any even thin-film deal with them to guarantee support for a govts policies.
It's pathetic the oldest party of govt in the UK has to be in any way whatsoever going cap in hand to the DUP is a disgrace.

Losing her majority,Mrs May should have engaged in consensus politics with all other Parties in parliament.
Her request for to be made stronger by voters has been rejected by voters.
That's what she should take from this election,not bring in one of the more extreme parties to aid her.

I wish they would take their seats too but I do also admire Sinn Féin for their stance as to the UK parliament.
How great it would be if they were to take their 7 seats at Westminster too and in one swoop remove any great influence the DUP may have at all.

[Vicky.]

Not surprising. Its terrifying that these dinosaurs have actual power. And Corbyn was going to take us back to the 70s? May seems to have aimed for that, missed and landed back in the ****ing stoneages.

Tbf though I have always thought the 24 week limit was very late though. But as I understand it, you can only get an abortion that late for medical reasons anyway.

[Tom4784]

How are you as a mod allowed to get away with saying stuff like this but ban any you dont like who says similar?

Are you not a man trying to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies? Did you not say you would want to illegalise abortion outside of rape? If so then what is factually incorrect about what I have said?

The truth is that nothing is wrong with my post, you don't have an answer so you went to the good ol' tactic that so many people rely on 'Can't argue with Dezzy? Throw out personal attacks about him being a mod.'

Have I banned anyone for saying anything similar to what I said for you? You seem to know more about the infractions system then even me so please enlighten me. Where and when have I banned anyone for saying that? Go ahead, I'll wait.

[smudgie]

Aborting a baby at 24 weeks should only be allowed if there is a danger to the mother, or something seriously wrong with baby.
How anybody could consider it is ok killing a fully formed baby is just barbaric to me.
I am not anti abortion, I feel it's every woman's right to decide if she wants a baby or not, but surely they can make that decision at an earlier stage of the pregnancy.

[Denver]

Are you not a man trying to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies? Did you not say you would want to illegalise abortion outside of rape? If so then what is factually incorrect about what I have said?

The truth is that nothing is wrong with my post, you don't have an answer so you went to the good ol' tactic that so many people rely on 'Can't argue with Dezzy? Throw out personal attacks about him being a mod.'

Have I banned anyone for saying anything similar to what I said for you? You seem to know more about the infractions system then even me so please enlighten me. Where and when have I banned anyone for saying that? Go ahead, I'll wait.

You tell be why do you think it is ok to muder a fully grown fetus?

[Vicky.]

I was just asking! They are necessary, its the only way to get a majority in government. But I'd imagine torys and labour supporters alike hate this.

Yes, it only seems to be a popular idea with a select few Tory voters, and only people on forums too...unless of course, more do actually support this coalition but don't dare say because...well...its not a good thing to out yourself as anti-gay and anti-women among other things is it :laugh:. So many people I know who voted Tory are horrified. First they had the shock of not getting a majority when it was predicted May would walk it easily, and then they find out about the DUP. Even the most hardcore of Tory voters that I know think its a terrible idea.

I was arguing with a gay friend of mine yesterday about this, he always blindly supports everything May does..he wouldn't believe me about the DUP stance on gay rights. Then sky news mentioned it and all of a sudden he decided to check for himself, and now he is also against it. Its rather amusing watching him try to declare his love for May whilst denouncing the DUP and pretty much tying himself in knots :D

[Tom4784]

You tell be why do you think it is ok to muder a fully grown fetus?

Late term abortions are not offered like early abortions, they are only done for medical reasons. The vast majority of abortions take place when the fetus is nothing more than a bundle of cells so your point doesn't really stand.

Also life begins at birth, not at contraception. If you believe that fetuses are alive in the same manner as other people then why are you fine with the Morning After Pill? You dodged my question regarding that last time.

[Kazanne]

What is the deadline for abortions now? my friend had a little boy at 24 weeks,NONE of us thought he would survive,he was so tiny,I cried when I saw him,but against the odds he pulled through,he has a little trouble walking but otherwise he is fine,he is now a strapping 9 year old,so maybe it's never a bad thing to have it reviewed.

[Scarlett.]

What is the deadline for abortions now? my friend had a little boy at 24 weeks,NONE of us thought he would survive,he was so tiny,I cried when I saw him,but against the odds he pulled through,he has a little trouble walking but otherwise he is fine,he is now a strapping 9 year old,so maybe it's never a bad thing to have it reviewed.

Like Dezzy says, abortions at that point in time are only really done for medical reasons.

[Kazanne]

Aborting a baby at 24 weeks should only be allowed if there is a danger to the mother, or something seriously wrong with baby.
How anybody could consider it is ok killing a fully formed baby is just barbaric to me.
I am not anti abortion, I feel it's every woman's right to decide if she wants a baby or not, but surely they can make that decision at an earlier stage of the pregnancy.

Totally agree smudgie and I have first hand experience of a baby born at 24 weeks.

[Tom4784]

What is the deadline for abortions now? my friend had a little boy at 24 weeks,NONE of us thought he would survive,he was so tiny,I cried when I saw him,but against the odds he pulled through,he has a little trouble walking but otherwise he is fine,he is now a strapping 9 year old,so maybe it's never a bad thing to have it reviewed.

24 weeks I believe but, like I said before, they are only offered that late in the game unless it's for medical purposes. The vast majority of abortions take place before 12 weeks if I remember right.

[Vicky.]

There is also a morning after pill.

Abortions are use as a way to not have safe sex because the nhs will help you get rid of the child anyway.

Unless its a better reason then i dont want a child they should not be entitled to one
What will you do with all of the unwanted babies in care? After forcing women to go through pregnancy and labour and such. Do you realise giving birth can actually be quite dangerous, even without preexisting problems?

You cannot expect people to use contraception and then take the morning after pill too each time they have sex?! And...that could fail too. What then?

A friend of mine was on the injection and using condoms and got pregnant. So double contraception failures whilst rare, do happen.

I doubt anyone (besides a couple of sick bastards) uses abortion as contraception, like you appear to be suggesting here. As someone who actually had one at 15 years old...it still affects me to this day. No matter what I could not have had another one. I do not understand how people can do it over and over. I know a couple of women do, the ones paraded round in the press for shock factor. But I think anyone who would actually do this is mentally ill tbh.
How are you as a mod allowed to get away with saying stuff like this but ban any you dont like who says similar?

I actually don't see what dezzy said wrong here. And I have never seen someone banned for saying something like this, ever.

[user104658]

The problem is that there's a common misperception surrounding the "up to 24 weeks" issue... people think that there's a uniform distribution up to that point which just isn't true. Late stage abortions ARE a moral grey area, however, the facts are:

- 80% of abortions are before 10 weeks.

- 91% are first trimester (before 13 weeks)

- 99% are before 16 weeks


An already very very small number of abortions take place after 16 weeks, and after 20 weeks is almost never anyway. There really isn't actually any practical problem in real terms. It's just a moral foot-stomping area in politics... getting outraged about "swathes" of late stage abortions - something that isn't actually happening.

[user104658]

As for contraception - I'm proud father to a 7 year old pill-baby :joker:... my second was planned, but we did get pregnant a 3rd time when my wife had a contraceptive coil. It was an early miscarriage though... most pregnancies that happen whilst there's a coil implant are (what with there being a foreign object in the uterus).

But yeah, two pregnancies whilst on contraception. It's definitely far from perfect.

[Denver]

As for contraception - I'm proud father to a 7 year old pill-baby :joker:... my second was planned, but we did get pregnant a 3rd time when my wife had a contraceptive coil. It was an early miscarriage though... most pregnancies that happen whilst there's a coil implant are (what with there being a foreign object in the uterus).

But yeah, two pregnancies whilst on contraception. It's definitely far from perfect.

My sister got pregnant on a coil but didnt find out till half way through but he pulled through and is 7 this year

[Kazanne]

I do agree with a womans right to chose,plus medical and rape reasons,but I do know that abortion is also used as a form of contraception which in my view is wrong,but it happens.it's not as though there are not several preventions free or on the market.

[Denver]

I do agree with a womans right to chose,plus medical and rape reasons,but I do know that abortion is also used as a form of contraception which in my view is wrong,but it happens.it's not as though there are not several preventions free or on the market.

Maybe take it from the NHS for non medical reasons?

[sungrass]

The problem is that there's a common misperception surrounding the "up to 24 weeks" issue... people think that there's a uniform distribution up to that point which just isn't true. Late stage abortions ARE a moral grey area, however, the facts are:

- 80% of abortions are before 10 weeks.

- 91% are first trimester (before 13 weeks)

- 99% are before 16 weeks


An already very very small number of abortions take place after 16 weeks, and after 20 weeks is almost never anyway. There really isn't actually any practical problem in real terms. It's just a moral foot-stomping area in politics... getting outraged about "swathes" of late stage abortions - something that isn't actually happening.


Yes it only happens if the mother hasn't been going for regular scans and then when she does because she is really showing - they pick up fatal fetal abnormality's - its not something someone decides to do at that point. Its a medical emergency.

[sungrass]

Totally agree smudgie and I have first hand experience of a baby born at 24 weeks.

Yeah I agree with that point.

[Tregard]

Any party aligning with the extreme and uncompromising DUP are wrong in my view.

This Party helps keep ashes of the troubles in Northern Ireland recalled.
They moan the orange marchers cannot get to March down some Catholic areas, which denies them their near 'baiting' activities.

I detest the DUP, they are a rigid dinosaur parry stuck in some belief of religious hardline attitudes and intolerance.

Let them vote in the UK parliament by all means when democratically elected.
However make any even thin-film deal with them to guarantee support for a govts policies.
It's pathetic the oldest party of govt in the UK has to be in any way whatsoever going cap in hand to the DUP is a disgrace.

Losing her majority,Mrs May should have engaged in consensus politics with all other Parties in parliament.
Her request for to be made stronger by voters has been rejected by voters.
That's what she should take from this election,not bring in one of the more extreme parties to aid her.

I wish they would take their seats too but I do also admire Sinn Féin for their stance as to the UK parliament.
How great it would be if they were to take their 7 seats at Westminster too and in one swoop remove any great influence the DUP may have at all.

The fact they call themselves "Democratic" is by far the most ludicrous thing amount them. They actively ignore and work against the majority of their constituents and even the other parties in NI by blocking things like gay marriage. The views of the country matter only if they agree with their fundamentalist Christian views, it's sickening and laughable, and people only vote for them as they fear losing NI's place in the UK.

[Vicky.]

As for contraception - I'm proud father to a 7 year old pill-baby :joker:... my second was planned, but we did get pregnant a 3rd time when my wife had a contraceptive coil. It was an early miscarriage though... most pregnancies that happen whilst there's a coil implant are (what with there being a foreign object in the uterus).

But yeah, two pregnancies whilst on contraception. It's definitely far from perfect.

Someone I know fathered a child after he had had the snip :D And yes, the child definitely is his before someone says...

[AnnieK]

Lowering the legal limit is not a bad thing I'm as long as they don't try to abolish it completely. 24 weeks is far too late imo. They will always be allowed to do later term medical terminations but for "normal" terminations 24 weeks is far too advanced imo.

[DemolitionRed]

Lowering the legal limit is not a bad thing I'm as long as they don't try to abolish it completely. 24 weeks is far too late imo. They will always be allowed to do later term medical terminations but for "normal" terminations 24 weeks is far too advanced imo.

I'm all for choice but when it comes to a 24 week abortion, like you, I believe it should only be used for medical reasons or exceptional circumstances. My reasons are because most babies born between 22-23 weeks will not survive and if they do, most will be severely brain damaged. A pregnant woman who threatens labour at 23 weeks will receive a lot of resources to try and get her pregnancy to go that extra week because at 24 weeks the odds of survival without severe brain damage go up dramatically. I've never understood why its 24 weeks and not 22-23 weeks.

Another thing is, doctors and nurses involved in dilation and evacuation procedure used in late stage abortions often find it very traumatic and spend a lot of time struggling with their own conscience. Whilst they know its a necessary procedure most cases, they don't call it the 'dark side' of medicine for nothing.

[smudgie]

What is the deadline for abortions now? my friend had a little boy at 24 weeks,NONE of us thought he would survive,he was so tiny,I cried when I saw him,but against the odds he pulled through,he has a little trouble walking but otherwise he is fine,he is now a strapping 9 year old,so maybe it's never a bad thing to have it reviewed.

My niece and her baby were put on life support when she had her baby girl.
She lost a baby boy at 24 weeks the year before, he only lived 6 hours.
Fortunately they managed to save mother and baby, baby had a few problems to start with, but she was out of hospital by the time her actual due date.
She is now an award winning dancer and the smiliest happiest kid ever.
Had she been born before the 24 weeks there is a chance she would not have been given any help in her chance of survival.

[smudgie]

Someone I know fathered a child after he had had the snip :D And yes, the child definitely is his before someone says...

Yeah, my best friends son has a gorgeous little girl born after he had the snip.
Silly beggar never waited for the all clear that his little swimmers were dud.

[Kazanne]

My niece and her baby were put on life support when she had her baby girl.
She lost a baby boy at 24 weeks the year before, he only lived 6 hours.
Fortunately they managed to save mother and baby, baby had a few problems to start with, but she was out of hospital by the time her actual due date.
She is now an award winning dancer and the smiliest happiest kid ever.
Had she been born before the 24 weeks there is a chance she would not have been given any help in her chance of survival.

I am so pleased she is good now smudgie,miracles do happen

[smudgie]

I am so pleased she is good now smudgie,miracles do happen

Indeed.
Unfortunately my niece had to have a sterilisation as she was told she would probably not survive another pregnancy, but she has two lovely girls so she is lucky really.

[Vicky.]

There are a huge number of babies that survive when born really really early. Gavins son with someone else was born at 30 weeks. Which is not really that early but my god he was tiny. He weighed next to nothing and was see through and it was just heartbreaking. In the incubator thing next to him there was a baby that had been born at 23 weeks fighting for its life. It ended up dying but Gavin still talks about that baby now, it really touched him :(

Doctors do refuse to do 'choice' based abortions late on though. Tends to be only if the baby will have a severe disability or if the mothers life is at risk somehow.

[user104658]

My dad was born at 24 weeks, weighed less than 2lbs. And that was 63 years ago when survival chances were even lower. He's 6'2 as well :joker:.

To think, you guys almost didn't have the pleasure of Toy Soldier :worry:... What sort of forum would it even be?

[smudgie]

My dad was born at 24 weeks, weighed less than 2lbs. And that was 63 years ago when survival chances were even lower. He's 6'2 as well :joker:.

To think, you guys almost didn't have the pleasure of Toy Soldier :worry:... What sort of forum would it even be?

I can't imagine the forum without you TS:hee:

Great that your dad survived, especially so many years ago without the technology and equipment we have now.

[Northern Monkey]

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.

[Vicky.]

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.

Problem is though, what would you say we could do about (the vanishingly small number of) people like this? Force them to have babies? Sterylise them?

At my 12 week scan mine looked like babies...not sure if mine just grew fast or what.

Very upsetting stuff in the spoiler. Don't click if easily upset...
When I had my miscarriage just before I got pregnant with Skye, I was only 9 weeks and what I passed looked like a really tiny baby :S It was absolutely horrendous

I guess the issue with reducing the limit loads is a lot of people don't even realise they are pregnant until a later stage. I used to think it should be under 12 weeks. However...as most are carried out at an early stage anyway, it seems to kind of police itself. I doubt anyone would take the decision of a late abortion lightly. Even an early one is seriously upsetting, I can't imagine what it must be like to actually have to give birth to a baby you have aborted :/

Some really do seem to think women do it for ****s and giggles. A select few might not take it as seriously as they should, but the huge majority do.

[smudgie]

Problem is though, what would you say we could do about (the vanishingly small number of) people like this? Force them to have babies? Sterylise them?

At my 12 week scan mine looked like babies...not sure if mine just grew fast or what.

Very upsetting stuff in the spoiler. Don't click if easily upset...
When I had my miscarriage just before I got pregnant with Skye, I was only 9 weeks and what I passed looked like a really tiny baby :S It was absolutely horrendous

I guess the issue with reducing the limit loads is a lot of people don't even realise they are pregnant until a later stage. I used to think it should be under 12 weeks. However...as most are carried out at an early stage anyway, it seems to kind of police itself. I doubt anyone would take the decision of a late abortion lightly. Even an early one is seriously upsetting, I can't imagine what it must be like to actually have to give birth to a baby you have aborted :/

Some really do seem to think women do it for ****s and giggles. A select few might not take it as seriously as they should, but the huge majority do.

I think somewhere between the 16-20 week would make more sense under normal circumstances. Obviously if it is detrimental to the mothers life then at anytime.

[user104658]

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.
Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

[smudgie]

Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

True.
Shame something wasn't done in 2012 when Theresa May amongst others were thinking about it.

[user104658]

Great that your dad survived, especially so many years ago without the technology and equipment we have now.

I think he was pretty much a write off, but he just kept ticking along. Like a few hours later they were like "Err he's still alive, we should probably start feeding him or something"

[Vicky.]

Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want. I can imagine over the coming weeks/months the debates will get worse too. Maybe a few talks in parliament about how 'gays are abominations' and how May should remove equal marriage laws and such no doubt

[user104658]

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want.

For it to have been announced so early I'd assume it was one of their agreements when they were negotiating the support deal in the first place. It seems to have been cobbled together pretty hastily... The Conservatives really did not expect anything less than a majority.

[bots]

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want. I can imagine over the coming weeks/months the debates will get worse too. Maybe a few talks in parliament about how 'gays are abominations' and how May should remove equal marriage laws and such no doubt

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.

[DemolitionRed]

There are a huge number of babies that survive when born really really early. Gavins son with someone else was born at 30 weeks. Which is not really that early but my god he was tiny. He weighed next to nothing and was see through and it was just heartbreaking. In the incubator thing next to him there was a baby that had been born at 23 weeks fighting for its life. It ended up dying but Gavin still talks about that baby now, it really touched him :(

Doctors do refuse to do 'choice' based abortions late on though. Tends to be only if the baby will have a severe disability or if the mothers life is at risk somehow.

Sadly that isn't the case with some doctors and some private abortion clinics.
I know someone who had an abortion at 23 weeks + 5 days because she simply changed her mind. Knowing she may have a tough time getting a late abortion, she simply lied to the medical professional who interviewed her. She told them that she hadn't realized she was pregnant because she'd still been getting her periods (lies) and that she'd been drinking a lot of alcohol and cannabis (which she hadn't). She was two days within the deadline and they rushed her through to a specialist clinic to do the procedure.

[DemolitionRed]

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.

Yep that's going to be interesting.

[Vicky.]

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.what do you mean by this?

I am fairly happy with this government tbh if all her controversial stuff will be voted down. So she will be able to do...nothing that she wants. No more bashing the disabled...

So she can stay to sort out Brexit so that they cannot play on the lie that Labour ****ed it up (much like the lie that Labour caused the global recession :umm2: ) to get themselves back in.

Sadly that isn't the case with some doctors and some private abortion clinics.
I know someone who had an abortion at 23 weeks + 5 days because she simply changed her mind. Knowing she may have a tough time getting a late abortion, she simply lied to the medical professional who interviewed her. She told them that she hadn't realized she was pregnant because she'd still been getting her periods (lies) and that she'd been drinking a lot of alcohol and cannabis (which she hadn't). She was two days within the deadline and they rushed her through to a specialist clinic to do the procedure.

Hmm. I guess though, the doctors couldn't prove she was lying about it.

I'm not sure what should happen though, in cases where the mother genuinely does not realize until late on. Very very grey area for me :/ And of course, its hard to prove that people lie about it. Though there must have been something else going on than she just changed her mind. Noone in their right mind would chose to put themselves through that on a whim...

[bots]

what do you mean by this?

I am fairly happy with this government tbh if all her controversial stuff will be voted down. So she will be able to do...nothing that she wants. No more bashing the disabled...

So she can stay to sort out Brexit so that they cannot play on the lie that Labour ****ed it up (much like the lie that Labour caused the global recession :umm2: ) to get themselves back in.



Hmm. I guess though, the doctors couldn't prove she was lying about it.

I'm not sure what should happen though, in cases where the mother genuinely does not realize until late on. Very very grey area for me :/


The legislation that the government propose to put through parliament has to be outlined in the queens speech and it is then voted on, on day 1 of the parliament.

This is why a party needs a majority to be able to do anything. So, if they remotely try to meddle with Northern Ireland, it will get kicked out immediately. They just can't do anything controversial.

What I am saying is that even without anything controversial in there, there could easily be enough pissed off tories to stop TM in her tracks there and then. Honestly, I don't see TM lasting a week, its just all posturing at the moment while the big boys decide who should be put forward to take over.

Democracy does work, and disaffected Tories will vote down their own party if they think its in the countries best interests. With the way May has handled brexit, I would imagine there is a large queue of them.