Still no DUP deal, May to go ahead with Queens speech without a commons majority

[King Gizzard]

Coalition of chaos indeed :hehe:

877183056934842374

Mess

[joeysteele]

They've even cancelled a Queens speech for next year too,this one to cover 2 years.

It's said because of brexit but I have a suspicion she and the Cons possibly fear a defeating next year's.

It is a mess, as this deal whenever it comes,by the division it may cause will be shown.

[Jack_]

There's also reports that the DUP have said 'negotiations haven't gone as expected' and that they shouldn't be taken for granted. I do still think the Queen's Speech will pass, but anyone that thinks this government isn't on borrowed time is lying to themselves

You know, the cynic in me wonders if there's any chance there's some political gameplaying going on here. The Tories and the DUP agree to eventually bring down their own administration, let Corbyn try to get legislation passed but make it difficult for him and show him to be ineffective, in the meantime regroup and get a new Tory leader, and then prepare for another election by voting down his government. I've probably just watched too much House of Cards though

[bots]

if labour were to play this smart, they would approve the queens speech then go for a vote of no confidence at the first failed vote after.

It's a mess for sure, but what to do, people were moaning that they were being propped up by a dodgy group, now its clear they are not .... and people still moan

[Brother Leon]

Let's see how much of a formality the Queens speech is. No way should a proposed government without a Majority pass.

[the truth]

Labour oppose everything anyways, thats what mindless protestors do. But put a protest party in charge and you have serious problems. We only have austerity because of labour in the first place lol They also brought in tuition fee,s hospital car parking charges, deregulation of the banks, which in turn saw banks lend insane amounts of money that could never be paid back in a lifetime...but the liberal students dont get taught that do they...It doesnt suit their left wing agenda to actually teach the full truth... First off,every labour mp would need to buy a calculator each

[Vicky.]

if labour were to play this smart, they would approve the queens speech then go for a vote of no confidence at the first failed vote after.

It's a mess for sure, but what to do, people were moaning that they were being propped up by a dodgy group, now its clear they are not .... and people still moan

I genuinely think the best thing Labour can do is allow the Tories to continue to implode. let the speech pass, let them deal with the mess that will be Brexit. If Labour had to deal with it then we would hear for the next 50 years how they bankrupted the country through the Brexit deal and how they can't be trusted, yadayadayada. Like how Labour still get the blame for the global recession.

Leave May to it. The longer she is there the more the party eats itself.

[Vicky.]

Labour oppose everything anyways, thats what mindless protestors do. But put a protest party in charge and you have serious problems. We only have austerity because of labour in the first place lol They also brought in tuition fee,s hospital car parking charges, deregulation of the banks, which in turn saw banks lend insane amounts of money that could never be paid back in a lifetime...but the liberal students dont get taught that do they...It doesnt suit their left wing agenda to actually teach the full truth... First off,every labour mp would need to buy a calculator each

The opposition in opposing shocker eh :D

And we don't have austerity because of Labour. We have austeiry as the Conservatives want it that way. Austerity actually slows growth too, so **** knows why they went down that route...also..the banking crash would have been even worse under the Tories as they wanted LESS regulation on the banks.

[Withano]

Tbf. The tories are better off without them imo. It would completely alienate a lot of their supporters

[Vicky.]

Tbf. The tories are better off without them imo. It would completely alienate a lot of their supporters

Yes was a ridiculous attempt at a power grab from May (floundering after not getting the majority she was so certain she would get...awww). Should have just went with minority to start with. Aligning themselves with the DUP did them no favours at all and I am positive a lot of Tory members are unhappy with it

[Withano]

Yes was a ridiculous attempt at a power grab from May (floundering after not getting the majority she was so certain she would get...awww). Should have just went with minority to start with. Aligning themselves with the DUP did them no favours at all and I am positive a lot of Tory members are unhappy with it

Completely agree

[bots]

Yes was a ridiculous attempt at a power grab from May (floundering after not getting the majority she was so certain she would get...awww). Should have just went with minority to start with. Aligning themselves with the DUP did them no favours at all and I am positive a lot of Tory members are unhappy with it

No it wasn't, its standard practice and protocol that she has been following. There is a process that is followed when setting up a government, and one thing she shouldn't be criticised for is following that process. The party with the most seats has 30? days to form a government after an election. If she doesn't achieve that then its back to the people and another round of electioneering

Its grim, and May can be criticised for a lot (and rightly so in my opinion) but following due process shouldn't be one of them.

[Withano]

No it wasn't, its standard practice and protocol that she has been following. There is a process that is followed when setting up a government, and one thing she shouldn't be criticised for is following that process. The party with the most seats has 30? days to form a government after an election. If she doesn't achieve that then its back to the people and another round of electioneering

Its grim, and May can be criticised for a lot (and rightly so in my opinion) but following due process shouldn't be one of them.

I think people are just questioning her personal, and the tories as a whole, moral integrity when the DUP were even considered. All other parties wouldnt touch them with a 50 foot barge pole.
Im not sure if the coalition isnt going ahead out of a lack of want or a lack of success from the tories, but it does work better for them in the long run imo.

[Brillopad]

There's also reports that the DUP have said 'negotiations haven't gone as expected' and that they shouldn't be taken for granted. I do still think the Queen's Speech will pass, but anyone that thinks this government isn't on borrowed time is lying to themselves

You know, the cynic in me wonders if there's any chance there's some political gameplaying going on here. The Tories and the DUP agree to eventually bring down their own administration, let Corbyn try to get legislation passed but make it difficult for him and show him to be ineffective, in the meantime regroup and get a new Tory leader, and then prepare for another election by voting down his government. I've probably just watched too much House of Cards though

Don't think it would take too much to show him as ineffective.

[arista]

Coalition of chaos indeed :hehe:

877183056934842374

Mess


Thursday
couple of days, not to bad

[Jack_]

Don't think it would take too much to show him as ineffective.

Trite

[Brillopad]

Trite

Trite but true.

[Jack_]

Trite but true.

Can you foresee the future, then? Nothing is 'true' until it happens

And yes...I know what your reply will be

[Kizzy]

In Belfast other DUP sources said that “backbiting from Tory backbenchers” against their party had stiffened their resolve to “dig in.”

They said complaints by Tory MPs about having to deal with the DUP had gone down badly.

“They attempted to bounce us into a deal on Saturday night and then we had the backbenchers saying that we were unsavoury etc.

“There is also a feeling within the DUP that if we can get extra spending in Northern Ireland in, say, the local NHS to bring down waiting lists here, then there would be a barrage of complaints from English, Scottish and Welsh Tories over the special treatment our part of the UK was receiving.

“Conservative high command ought to stop their backbenchers whinging about the DUP and show our party some respect,” the DUP sources added.

They think they have the tories over a barrel...they don't the EU have us over that barrel and will NOT allow any concessions for the DUP.

This house of cards is about to fold, wonder what will happen tomorrow...Will there be a queens speech if there is no formal coalition?

[Kizzy]

Tick tock...

The Democratic Unionist Party is believed to be demanding £2bn as its price for propping up Theresa May in power, plunging the talks into fresh jeopardy.

The party wants £1bn pumped into the health service in Northern Ireland and a similar figure for infrastructure projects, the BBC was told.

The huge sums appear to be the roadblock to an agreement, which the Prime Minister desperately needs to guarantee her a Commons majority on key votes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-dup-deal-talks-latest-2-billion-northern-ireland-healthcare-theresa-may-air-passenger-duty-a7800766.html

[reece(:]

Tories are going to implode.

[user104658]

Tick tock...

The Democratic Unionist Party is believed to be demanding £2bn as its price for propping up Theresa May in power, plunging the talks into fresh jeopardy.

The party wants £1bn pumped into the health service in Northern Ireland and a similar figure for infrastructure projects, the BBC was told.

The huge sums appear to be the roadblock to an agreement, which the Prime Minister desperately needs to guarantee her a Commons majority on key votes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-dup-deal-talks-latest-2-billion-northern-ireland-healthcare-theresa-may-air-passenger-duty-a7800766.html

So they want the Tories to use £2 billion of the public's cash to buy themselves into power? Hmmmm not dodgy at all then.

[Mystic Mock]

DUP would be smart not to get into bed with the Tories after what the Tories did to the Lib Dems in the last coalition.

[Kizzy]

So they want the Tories to use £2 billion of the public's cash to buy themselves into power? Hmmmm not dodgy at all then.

:joker::joker:

Can this be explained away? Oh well the NHS can do without a few more beds to make sure Maybot inc maintains power. :/

[Withano]

This entire election just seems fake. Like an elaborate practical joke. A tiny party demanding 2 billion from the largest party so they can both have power. That doesnt sound real! The largest party contemplating using the most backward party that would serve no purpose but alienating a large proportion of their supporters doesnt sound real!

Just call another snap and give Corbyn the win imo.

[Brillopad]

This entire election just seems fake. Like an elaborate practical joke. A tiny party demanding 2 billion from the largest party so they can both have power. That doesnt sound real! The largest party contemplating using the most backward party that would serve no purpose but alienating a large proportion of their supporters doesnt sound real!

Just call another snap and give Corbyn the win imo.

They won't call an election unless they have to and it is not on the cards ATM. And even if they do there are no guarantees Corbyn will get it. A lot of people are disgusted how he used the tower tragedy to help himself - we will see won't we.

Hopefully more are waking up to him and even more will do so by the time of another election, if there is one.

[the truth]

it would be mad to have yet another election now, weve had 2 general elections and 2 referendums in the last few years and we have brexit started 3 days ago... The hysterical fleet street media always made a big drama out of everything, that idiot laura kunnssberg on the pitiful bbc news is a classic example. what an idiot she is ..endless exagerated soap operatic reports from downing street..screaming down the road at the prime minsiter? so shes 8 short of a total majority, so what? many have been before many will be again. it will get worked out...Lets just keep calm and carry on

[Brillopad]

it would be mad to have yet another election now, weve had 2 general elections and 2 referendums in the last few years and we have brexit started 3 days ago... The hysterical fleet street media always made a big drama out of everything, that idiot laura kunnssberg on the pitiful bbc news is a classic example. what an idiot she is ..endless exagerated soap operatic reports from downing street..screaming down the road at the prime minsiter? so shes 8 short of a total majority, so what? many have been before many will be again. it will get worked out...Lets just keep calm and carry on

Agreed.

[Withano]

They won't call an election unless they have to and it is not on the cards ATM. And even if they do there are no guarantees Corbyn will get it. A lot of people are disgusted how he used the tower tragedy to help himself - we will see won't we.

Hopefully more are waking up to him and even more will do so by the time of another election, if there is one.

Nah, he'd get the landslide victory. Tories havent stopped ****ing up for about 15 months running now, most specifically in the last 3. It wont be called, but it should be. As if 5 years of a minority government/ 2bn wasted on a fascist party is useful to anybody

[the truth]

Nah, he'd get the landslide victory. Tories havent stopped ****ing up for about 15 months running now, most specifically in the last 3. It wont be called, but it should be. As if 5 years of a minority government/ 2bn wasted on a fascist party is useful to anybody

lol no he really wouldnt the result would be almost identical , its only been a few weeks, even the brits arent that fickle

[DemolitionRed]

Even most Tory Brits are worried about this deal with DUP because its not just about making up the numbers, its about the role of the government in the Northern Ireland peace process. When that peace process is in trouble, as it is at the moment, the British and Irish government are the mediator between the unionists and the nationalists. How can they remain the mediator when the unionists are now being brought into government?

She called this election because she thought Labour were weak and she was going to get a landslide but what was designed to expose Labour's weaknesses has profoundly exposed hers... and the country's not stupid. The Tory party have become a joke from their own making and if we aren't careful, we are going to end up as a failed state and all this because the Tories are too busy looking out for their own party... hanging onto number 10 like barnacles instead of getting out their and looking after their nation. And now, to top it all, they want to destroy what John Major and Tony Blair put in place... the peace process in Northern Ireland. Tory or not, we should all be fcuking angry about this.

[Withano]

lol no he really wouldnt the result would be almost identical , its only been a few weeks, even the brits arent that fickle

It would be almost identical if there were little to no changes between the day before the election and right now... but if youve been keeping up, you would know that a feck load has changed. Obviously that would be reflected in a new snap.

[King Gizzard]

877546756376068096

[Brillopad]

Even most Tory Brits are worried about this deal with DUP because its not just about making up the numbers, its about the role of the government in the Northern Ireland peace process. When that peace process is in trouble, as it is at the moment, the British and Irish government are the mediator between the unionists and the nationalists. How can they remain the mediator when the unionists are now being brought into government?

She called this election because she thought Labour were weak and she was going to get a landslide but what was designed to expose Labour's weaknesses has profoundly exposed hers... and the country's not stupid. The Tory party have become a joke from their own making and if we aren't careful, we are going to end up as a failed state and all this because the Tories are too busy looking out for their own party... hanging onto number 10 like barnacles instead of getting out their and looking after their nation. And now, to top it all, they want to destroy what John Major and Tony Blair put in place... the peace process in Northern Ireland. Tory or not, we should all be fcuking angry about this.

Interesting how you fail to mention that the SDLP, throughout negotiations and the peace process, took the Labour whip in Parliament. How convenient you fail to harp on about how that weakened the peace process. Or that Gordon Brown also tried to make a deal with the DUP in 2010.

One rule for the Tories and another for Labour. :smug:

[Parmy]

The queens outfit is trending in conspiracists circles because it resembled the eu flag

[DemolitionRed]

Interesting how you fail to mention that the SDLP, throughout negotiations and the peace process, took the Labour whip in Parliament. How convenient you fail to harp on about how that weakened the peace process. Or that Gordon Brown also tried to make a deal with the DUP in 2010.

One rule for the Tories and another for Labour. :smug:

Because I'm talking about the present, not the past. I'm in the here and now because this isn't a tit for tat, my teams better than your team playground squabble, its about the future of Britain and the future of Northern Ireland NOW.

[DemolitionRed]

And you know what. I don't give a flying siht what party runs this country providing that party can progress and do better by its people and the people of Northern Ireland.

[Brillopad]

Because I'm talking about the present, not the past. I'm in the here and now because this isn't a tit for tat, my teams better than your team playground squabble, its about the future of Britain and the future of Northern Ireland NOW.

If it didn't affect the peace process then, why should it now - unless those Corbynites out there want to intentionally make a big thing about it to stir up a hornet's nest they wouldn't have welcomed back then - an underhand political tactic, down and dirty. Still amounts to double standards.

[Shaun]

A true coalition of chaos :( hope it's resolved soon xxx

[joeysteele]

It would be almost identical if there were little to no changes between the day before the election and right now... but if youve been keeping up, you would know that a feck load has changed. Obviously that would be reflected in a new snap.

I think another election in the next few months would result in Labour being the largest party.

I can easily see around another 30 seats going Labour now.
The momentum is with Labour, hopefully their own MPs see that too.

[King Gizzard]

877629297229414400

[Kizzy]

877629297229414400

The DUP asked for 2 billion didn't they? They are some expensive votes the tories will be buying from the funds from the public money tree :idc:

[Kizzy]

Sorry DUP you can't have your 2 billion we have 600 tower blocks to reclad :(

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-600-high-rise-apartment-blocks-same-combustible-cladding-councils-estimate-a7802406.html

[joeysteele]

The DUP asked for 2 billion didn't they? They are some expensive votes the tories will be buying from the funds from the public money tree :idc:

It's obscene in my view.

[Brillopad]

I think another election in the next few months would result in Labour being the largest party.

I can easily see around another 30 seats going Labour now.
The momentum is with Labour, hopefully their own MPs see that too.

I think that is wishful thinking. Do the remainers realise how many they have pi**ed off calling for a second referendum with their arrogant claims that people didn't understand what they were voting for.

What they really mean is that it is not what they want. I think many who voted to remain have been put off by such attitudes and would now vote leave.

[Kizzy]

I think that is wishful thinking. Do the remainers realise how many they have pi**ed off calling for a second referendum with their arrogant claims that people didn't understand what they were voting for.

What they really mean is that it is not what they want. I think many who voted to remain have been put off by such attitudes and would now vote leave.

Wasn't that lib dems in reference to brexit?...How is that a response to a post about Labours position in the GE?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-39794410/lib-dem-leader-tim-farron-challenged-by-member-of-public

[Vicky.]

What they really mean is that it is not what they want. I think many who voted to remain have been put off by such attitudes and would now vote leave.

I think that is wishful thinking.

.

[Tom4784]

They need to call another election at this point, a minority government isn't viable and it seems like the Tories can't get a coalition going.

[Northern Monkey]

It didn't go well....

qEsFtiruIok

[Kizzy]

:joker: :joker: :joker:

[smudgie]

The deal is done, all signed up now.:hehe:

[Brother Leon]

The coalition of chaos is here. Who's excited?

[smudgie]

The coalition of chaos is here. Who's excited?

Don't know about excitement, but just want them to get on with it all.

[Brother Leon]

That's a nice £1B bribe there. There is No Magic money tree though..

[jet]

They managed to get May to keep the triple lock pension and scrap means testing for winter fuel payments.
Plus 1B for our NI infrastructure which is still not as it should be after decades of being bombed. I'm happy enough.

[joeysteele]

That's a nice £1B bribe there. There is No Magic money tree though..

It's claimed the DUP support the Cons anyway.
So no deal should be needed.

This stinks of bought votes in Parliament.

I'd imagine a good number of mainland voters of all Parties are livid at bigoted sectarian politicians having any cosy arrangement with a UK govt.
No matter how loose the deal is.

It stinks and very strongly too.

[Withano]

.

I'd imagine a good number of mainland voters of all Parties are livid at bigoted sectarian politicians having any cosy arrangement with a UK govt.
.

Yes, I'd imagine it will be a key focus point in the next election that will screw them over in the long run.

[arista]

That's a nice £1B bribe there. There is No Magic money tree though..


Yes Lucky N. I.


"This stinks of bought votes in Parliament."
Yes Joey
but all Legit

[Brother Leon]

The next time they brand Corbyn's ideology as "Pie In The Sky". The next time Nurses are told they can't have a pay rise due to lack of funds, the next time public services are cut again and again, just remind them that Theresa May just promised a Billion like it was nothing, all to keep herself in Government.

[joeysteele]

The next time they brand Corbyn's ideology as "Pie In The Sky". The next time Nurses are told they can't have a pay rise due to lack of funds, the next time public services are cut again and again, just remind them that Theresa May just promised a Billion like it was nothing, all to keep herself in Government.

Without needing to, she has a majority over Labour,Lib Dem,SNP,PC,Green and Northern Irish Independent combined anyway.

The DUP bigots near always support the Cons so are no threat and Sinn Féinn annoyingly don't take up their Westminster seats.

She could and should have been able to govern alone.
However now,the DUP demand money for their votes and get it too.
That really stinks.

As for pensions and cuts to winter fuel allowance with or without the sectarian bigots of the DUP, she was never going to get that policy passed now anyway.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's a nice £1B bribe there. There is No Magic money tree though..

In this clip TM quite categorically says that no Magic Money Tree exists

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nurse-magic-money-tree-bbcqt-question-time-pay-rise-eight-years-election-latest-a7770576.html

So they must have got the Billion from somewhere else i think

:shrug:

[Smithy]

Actually disgusting, she's just paid £1billion to stay in power

[arista]

Actually disgusting, she's just paid £1billion to stay in power

she had no choice

[Withano]

she had no choice

Yes she did :suspect: nobody was even expecting a formal coalition - she went against expectations and wasted a bil.

[Brillopad]

It's claimed the DUP support the Cons anyway.
So no deal should be needed.

This stinks of bought votes in Parliament.

I'd imagine a good number of mainland voters of all Parties are livid at bigoted sectarian politicians having any cosy arrangement with a UK govt.
No matter how loose the deal is.

It stinks and very strongly too.

You would say differently if Corbyn needed Sinn Fein to support Labour. Ah then you wouldn't complain. All that moralising - I bet would only apply one way.

[Kizzy]

They managed to get May to keep the triple lock pension and scrap means testing for winter fuel payments.
Plus 1B for our NI infrastructure which is still not as it should be after decades of being bombed. I'm happy enough.

No accusations of support for terrorist factions then?

This is a bribe plain and simple, cash for votes, it is undemocratic and needs to be challenged.

[Withano]

You would say differently if Corbyn needed Sinn Fein to support Labour. Ah then you wouldn't complain. All that moralising - I bet would only apply one way.

Why is it becoming increasingly common to hypothetically accuse people of something on tibb. You have no idea how people would react in a different situation brillo.

[Livia]

Why is it becoming increasingly common to hypothetically accuse people of something on tibb. You have no idea how people would react in a different situation brillo.

To be honest Withano, it never stops you.

[Kizzy]

I doubt Corbyn would allow himself to be held to ransom in such a way.

[Livia]

LOL... no of course Corbyn wouldn't be caught dead with terrorist. Oh no, hang on...

[Withano]

To be honest Withano, it never stops you.

One example or stop baiting

[Livia]

One example or stop baiting

YOU stop baiting. And I'll consider it.

[Withano]

YOU stop baiting. And I'll consider it.

Tragic hahah

Actually was wondering why serious debates got quieter recently, assumed it was because bb was back on - it was probably just your lack of ****stirring.

[Tom4784]

LOL... no of course Corbyn wouldn't be caught dead with terrorist. Oh no, hang on...

Doesn't really work when Theresa May is getting into bed with the DUP, does it?

Stones in glass houses, Livia.

[jet]

No accusations of support for terrorist factions then?

This is a bribe plain and simple, cash for votes, it is undemocratic and needs to be challenged.

I don't like them, but any support the DUP had for sectarianism (and it was tenuous to say the least) were in defence of a country being bombed to bits and their citizens killed and maimed by the IRA, several murderers of which organisation are still members of Sinn Fein. There are no murderers in the DUP and never have been. I suppose you think NI Unionists should just have sat back and let the IRA/Sinn Fein do their worst?
What sort of fairytale land does your mind live in?

[Tom4784]

It's a disgusting and corrupt thing that she's done. She has wasted £1bn that could have been spent elsewhere in order to stay in power.

I pity anyone that even tries to defend that.

[jet]

It's a disgusting and corrupt thing that she's done. She has wasted £1bn that could have been spent elsewhere in order to stay in power.

I pity anyone that even tries to defend that.

Corbyn is the disgusting one, supporting terrorists who bombed the hell out of N.Ireland, wasting billions of taxpayers money on reconstruction and compensation for thousands of ruined businesses, homes and lives.

[bots]

It's a disgusting and corrupt thing that she's done. She has wasted £1bn that could have been spent elsewhere in order to stay in power.

I pity anyone that even tries to defend that.

1bn is easily worth it to keep Corbyn away from power. Job done.

[Tom4784]

Corbyn is the disgusting one, supporting terrorists who bombed the hell out of N.Ireland, wasting billions of taxpayers money on reconstruction and compensation for thousands of ruined businesses, homes and lives.

It honestly causes me despair at how willing people are to **** themselves over because a newspaper told them they should hate Corbyn.

[jet]

It honestly causes me despair at how willing people are to **** themselves over because a newspaper told them they should hate Corbyn.

Is that all you've got?
Those of us from N. Ireland knew of Corbyn and his IRA love - in way back in the 70's, before many here even heard of him.
I don't need a current newspaper to educate me.

[Smithy]

it definitely will not educate you

[reece(:]

A very divisive move for NI by May

[Tom4784]

Is that all you've got?
Those of us from N. Ireland knew of Corbyn and his IRA love - in way back in the 70's, before many here even heard of him.
I don't need a current newspaper to educate me.

You seem to be okay with certain terrorists but not others. The DUP has actual links to terrorism yet you seem okay to brush that under the rug because you don't seem to care about what May or the DUP is doing as long as you get to hate on Corbyn.

A dangerous attitude, people voted for the Tories without understanding what it would mean to do so just out of hatred for Corbyn and they aren't paying attention to what May is doing because they're addicted to the 'I hate Jeremy Corbyn' haterade.

Theresa May used a £1bn bribe to solidify their power, a party that is likely going to divide N.I even more with it's newfound prominence but that's all fine because who cares about that when you can hate on Jeremy Corbyn? No need to worry about what's actually happening at all because hating Jeremy Corbyn is the only thing that matters.

[jet]

it definitely will not educate you

They got enough right about Corbyn. But of course if you don't like what you read then it can't be true, right? The deaf, dumb and blind following of the man is pretty horrifying really.

[smudgie]

The £billion is for infrastructure across the whole of NI.
That in itself should be pleasing to both sides and hopefully get them back around the table for the talks.

[reece(:]

Looks like the magic money tree came through for the Cons in the end!

[jet]

You seem to be okay with certain terrorists but not others. The DUP has actual links to terrorism yet you seem okay to brush that under the rug because you don't seem to care about what May or the DUP is doing as long as you get to hate on Corbyn.



I answered this already on the previous page in reply to Kizzy:

I don't like them, but any support the DUP had for sectarianism (and it was tenuous to say the least) were in defence of a country being bombed to bits and their citizens killed and maimed by the IRA, several murderers of which organisation are still members of Sinn Fein. There are no murderers in the DUP and never have been. I suppose you think NI Unionists should just have sat back and let the IRA/Sinn Fein do their worst?
What sort of fairytale land does your mind live in?


Maybe if the IRA had murdered people you loved then you would hate the IRA supporter Corbyn too.

[Tom4784]

I answered this already on the previous page in reply to Kizzy:



Maybe if the IRA had murdered people you loved then you would hate the IRA supporter Corbyn too.

So you're okay with certain kinds of terrorism but not others?

[joeysteele]

Both the DUP and Sinn Féinn are sectarian Parties.
They can support who they wish with elected MPs or support no one.
What no sectarian set of bigots should have is any influence over a national UK govt.
None whatsoever.

If they vote with the Cons in parliament when there,fair enough.
No deals,no bribes,no money however for said votes.

Sectarian bigots holding a govt to ransom,I'd rather another election than ever entertain any sectarian party.

[jet]

So you're okay with certain kinds of terrorism but not others?

I am not okay with any kind of terrorism or murder. I was pointing out the reason why the DUP may have had tenuous links to paramilitaries in the past. The other side in any conflict is always going to bite back with some support, it happens the world over as you know very well, it's not right but its understandable. They have also condemned all terrorism many times over and the main party leaders have no links to or support any terrorist organisations whatsoever that I have ever heard of.
If there had been no IRA campaign there would have been no paramilitaries in the first place.
You don't appear to have any compassion for the destruction and pain the IRA caused to N.I citizens, myself included. All you seem to care about is defending Corbyn. Do you agree with his support of the IRA? I don't believe I have seen you condemn it, though I could be mistaken.

[Kizzy]

I don't like them, but any support the DUP had for sectarianism (and it was tenuous to say the least) were in defence of a country being bombed to bits and their citizens killed and maimed by the IRA, several murderers of which organisation are still members of Sinn Fein. There are no murderers in the DUP and never have been. I suppose you think NI Unionists should just have sat back and let the IRA/Sinn Fein do their worst?
What sort of fairytale land does your mind live in?

An objective one.

[jet]

An objective one.

Self praise isn't very objective. :smug:

[jaxie]

The fact that a deal has been so slow and what it does to May's credibiliy aside, I fail to understand why anyone would think an area of the UK that desperately needs more cash getting some is a dreadful thing. No matter how they got it. Good luck to them for squeezing a little extra cash for their country. I wouldn't call some much needed investment into any area of the UK that benefits all the citizens there a waste. No one bats an eye when Scotland demands.

[jaxie]

I am not okay with any kind of terrorism or murder. I was pointing out the reason why the DUP may have had tenuous links to paramilitaries in the past. The other side in any conflict is always going to bite back with some support, it happens the world over as you know very well, it's not right but its understandable. They have also condemned all terrorism many times over and the main party leaders have no links to or support any terrorist organisations whatsoever that I have ever heard of.
If there had been no IRA campaign there would have been no paramilitaries in the first place.
You don't appear to have any compassion for the destruction and pain the IRA caused to N.I citizens, myself included. All you seem to care about is defending Corbyn. Do you agree with his support of the IRA? I don't believe I have seen you condemn it, though I could be mistaken.

:clap1:

[Brillopad]

So you're okay with certain kinds of terrorism but not others?

So you're okay with inferring people are terrorist sympathisers when it suits after throwing such allegations my way in other threads. Either blatant hypocrisy or you having no self-awareness whatsoever. :shrug:

[MTVN]

Sinn Fein were the official political party of the IRA. The DUP are not and never have been the official political party of any loyalist paramilitary and the DUP today is a far different beast to the DUP in its early days under Ian Paisley. If they have some history with ex-loyalist terrorists that is because it is impossible to be involved in Northern Irish politics and be wholly cut off from the violence that existed there for years and years. This is a very good article on the issue:

Otherwise reputable Twitter accounts from serious journalists eagerly shared as fact pictures of UDA paramilitary murals that had been crudely photoshopped to include images of the DUP. Cartoons of Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, routinely depicted her as a grotesque vision of an Orangeman – in the case of the Times cartoonist, Peter Brookes, an Orangeman with heavy stubble: it was a 21st century take on those notorious 19th century Punch images of the cringing Catholic Irishman with a stovepipe hat and shillelagh, except this time the targets were Protestant and Unionist.

Foster’s meeting with the UDA leader Jackie McDonald was brandished by no less than the deputy editor of The Guardian as firm evidence that she is a terrorist sympathiser – despite the fact that McDonald, now a veteran alumnus of the peace process, is a friend of the former Irish president Mary McAleese, and was pictured warmly shaking hands with Jonathan Powell – Tony Blair’s former chief of staff – in 2015, when Powell flew over to set up the “Loyalist Communities Council” with the UVF and UDA.

The continuing inclusion of former paramilitaries – with their terrible pasts and often questionable present – at virtually all costs is the central tenet of the peace process. The DUP needs to be more robust in facing down the loyalist paramilitaries, particularly in South Belfast. But if the proximity of paramilitaries to government continues to make you uneasy, as it does me, there will be very little practical place for you in Northern Ireland politics as currently constructed.

Foster is, in fact, a member of the Church of Ireland who happily drinks alcohol and only joined the DUP in 2004. She spent the day before the election in Messines, Belgium with the outgoing Taoiseach Enda Kenny, commemorating a WWI battle in which unionist and Irish nationalist soldiers fought side by side. When necessary, she has attended local events alongside the Sinn Fein MLA Sean Lynch, a former close comrade of the late IRA man Seamus McElwain, whom Foster believes attempted to murder her policeman father and succeeded in wounding him. How many armchair pundits have had to negotiate such a complex past and present?

Full article: https://capx.co/criticism-of-the-dup-has-plunged-into-outright-hypocrisy/

[Alf]

Should have given May a majority, and this wouldn't be happening.

That's what was best for the country, going into the EU negotiations


But people voted tribally and not with their heads.



I'm not blaming anyone for how they voted, just giving you a reason for the current situation.

[the truth]

It honestly causes me despair at how willing people are to **** themselves over because a newspaper told them they should hate Corbyn.

lol thats the ONLY argument the left ever use....we bankrupted the country? no blame the daily mail...we invaded iraq illegally and killed a million innocents....? no blame the daily mail......we had the filthiest hospitals in europe? no blame the daily mail....we had record public debts over a trillion...no blame the daily mail....sold us out to europe ...blame the daily mail...deregulated the banks...blame the daily mail.....lol what a joke they are....hardly anyone even reads the daily mail lol...but most people who dont vote labour can do basic maths

[Brillopad]

Should have given May a majority, and this wouldn't be happening.

That's what was best for the country, going into the EU negotiations


But people voted tribally and not with their heads.



I'm not blaming anyone for how they voted, just giving you a reason for the current situation.

Tribally is a good description - that is exactly what happened.

[DemolitionRed]

3mo-keK6CxM

[Brillopad]

The fact that a deal has been so slow and what it does to May's credibiliy aside, I fail to understand why anyone would think an area of the UK that desperately needs more cash getting some is a dreadful thing. No matter how they got it. Good luck to them for squeezing a little extra cash for their country. I wouldn't call some much needed investment into any area of the UK that benefits all the citizens there a waste. No one bats an eye when Scotland demands.

They don't indeed. Throwing their toys out of the pram again - as they were screaming with glee when they thought a deal wouldn't happen. They got it wrong again.

[DemolitionRed]

Should have given May a majority, and this wouldn't be happening.

That's what was best for the country, going into the EU negotiations


But people voted tribally and not with their heads.



I'm not blaming anyone for how they voted, just giving you a reason for the current situation.

So you believe those who'd used their brains and not tribal instincts would of voted Conservative. Please explain why? what are the Cons offering the nation it shackles?

It really is time we heard an answer to the above question because there is little to no talk on here about Tory government achievements.

[the truth]

So you believe those who'd used their brains and not tribal instincts would of voted Conservative. Please explain why? what are the Cons offering the nation it shackles?

It really is time we heard an answer to the above question because there is little to no talk on here about Tory government achievements.

lol lowest unemployment rate in decades...more jobs created than the rest of europe put together in their 7 years in charge, deficit reduction....cleaned up the hospitals no more mrsa....strengthened the ombudsman and complaints procedures within hospitals to limit public sector cover ups...reduced tax for the poorest workers...gdp increase...democratic vote on europe....tightening up on anti terror laws at the borders....put corrupt bankers in jail unlike labour...fairer cap on benefits of £25,000 ...all that after taking over a bankrupted nation..granted theres lots of cock ups to say the least but thats some massive achievements after labours disasters

[Alf]

So you believe those who'd used their brains and not tribal instincts would of voted Conservative. Please explain why? what are the Cons offering the nation it shackles?

It really is time we heard an answer to the above question because there is little to no talk on here about Tory government achievements.This was an election to see who the people wanted, to lead us in carrying out what the country voted for last June.

May made her point clear, "out means out" "No deal is better than a bad deal"

Corbyn didn't even want to talk about it.


Don't get me wrong, May played a stinker. Until her shocking manifesto came out, she had a massive landslide. After those manifestos came out, people forgot about what was the point of the election, and went back to their tribes.

May probably shouldn't have even called an election. That and the shocking manifesto, definitely makes me wonder what her motives were.

[Tom4784]

I am not okay with any kind of terrorism or murder. I was pointing out the reason why the DUP may have had tenuous links to paramilitaries in the past. The other side in any conflict is always going to bite back with some support, it happens the world over as you know very well, it's not right but its understandable. They have also condemned all terrorism many times over and the main party leaders have no links to or support any terrorist organisations whatsoever that I have ever heard of.
If there had been no IRA campaign there would have been no paramilitaries in the first place.
You don't appear to have any compassion for the destruction and pain the IRA caused to N.I citizens, myself included. All you seem to care about is defending Corbyn. Do you agree with his support of the IRA? I don't believe I have seen you condemn it, though I could be mistaken.

You're happy enough to bash Jeremy Corbyn for having tenuous links but you aren't going to do the same for the DUP for having solidified links to terrorism? You are jumping through a lot of hoops to try to justify what is a hypocritical attitude.

If there was any real proof of Corbyn having a sympathetic attitude towards the IRA then he simply would not be in the position he is in, too many people oppose him for him to not be taken down by such accusations if they were true. The fat that he is still in a position of power after all the accusations speaks more for his innocence than his guilt.

So you're okay with inferring people are terrorist sympathisers when it suits after throwing such allegations my way in other threads. Either blatant hypocrisy or you having no self-awareness whatsoever. :shrug:

Reading is important Brillo, you need to stop pretending people have written what you wanted them to write and comment on what they actually said. You can't keep trying to drag people for imaginary comments that you have made up.

Jet is happy enough to slate one party with links to terrorism because of their alleged links to JC but they aren't doing the same to another party with similar links because they oppose JC. I'm not calling Jet a terrorist sympathiser, i'm calling them a hypocrite.

Honestly, this should have been obvious if you actually bothered to read what I said.

[the truth]

You're happy enough to bash Jeremy Corbyn for having tenuous links but you aren't going to do the same for the DUP for having solidified links to terrorism? You are jumping through a lot of hoops to try to justify what is a hypocritical attitude.

If there was any real proof of Corbyn having a sympathetic attitude towards the IRA then he simply would not be in the position he is in, too many people oppose him for him to not be taken down by such accusations if they were true. The fat that he is still in a position of power after all the accusations speaks more for his innocence than his guilt.



Reading is important Brillo, you need to stop pretending people have written what you wanted them to write and comment on what they actually said. You can't keep trying to drag people for imaginary comments that you have made up.

Jet is happy enough to slate one party with links to terrorism because of their alleged links to JC but they aren't doing the same to another party with similar links because they oppose JC. I'm not calling Jet a terrorist sympathiser, i'm calling them a hypocrite.

Honestly, this should have been obvious if you actually bothered to read what I said.

hes failed to denounce the IRA and Hammas and defied all anti terror laws...the man will not protect his own country

[jet]

You're happy enough to bash Jeremy Corbyn for having tenuous links but you aren't going to do the same for the DUP for having solidified links to terrorism? You are jumping through a lot of hoops to try to justify what is a hypocritical attitude.

If there was any real proof of Corbyn having a sympathetic attitude towards the IRA then he simply would not be in the position he is in, too many people oppose him for him to not be taken down by such accusations if they were true. The fat that he is still in a position of power after all the accusations speaks more for his innocence than his guilt.



Reading is important Brillo, you need to stop pretending people have written what you wanted them to write and comment on what they actually said. You can't keep trying to drag people for imaginary comments that you have made up.

Jet is happy enough to slate one party with links to terrorism because of their alleged links to JC but they aren't doing the same to another party with similar links because they oppose JC. I'm not calling Jet a terrorist sympathiser, i'm calling them a hypocrite.

Honestly, this should have been obvious if you actually bothered to read what I said.

You really are woefully misinformed about the complicated politics of N.Ireland. I never thought I'd see the day when I would be defending the DUP, but so many misconceptions have been bandied about to do with the N.Ireland troubles and the parties that I do a double take on a regular basis.

I will quote MTVN from earlier who does understand N.Ireland politics and include a link also posted that may help you to be more informed:

Sinn Fein were the official political party of the IRA. The DUP are not and never have been the official political party of any loyalist paramilitary and the DUP today is a far different beast to the DUP in its early days under Ian Paisley. If they have some history with ex-loyalist terrorists that is because it is impossible to be involved in Northern Irish politics and be wholly cut off from the violence that existed there for years and years.


https://capx.co/criticism-of-the-dup-has-plunged-into-outright-hypocrisy/


The IRA/Sinn Fein connection was a whole different beast to any Loyalist Para/DUP connection. I have already said I oppose ALL terrorism but you chose to ignore that, just as you chose to ignore the fact that Corbyn was well known as an IRA sympathiser and supporter in N.Ireland as far back as the 70's, before he became an MP. Tenuous links my ass. You think you know better than people who lived here and experienced the Troubles from beginning to end.

Just as you chose to ignore serious commentators on TV mentioning his past IRA links and the numerous articles detailing his involvement...and tell me this - why hasn't he sued any of them if they are ALL made up?
Answer: He dare not.
I have no interest whatsoever in the DUP opposing Corbyn. I have no affiliation with either UK Conservatives or Labour, or the DUP either, so that doesn't come into it with me personally. I always voted SDLP, the Labour equivalent in N.Ireland.
Why have the accusations not taken him down? Because either his supporters are too enamoured of him to give a **** or they refuse to believe it. Just like you in fact.

But by all means keep living in your la la land of denial. You wouldn't want reality to get in the way of your Corbyn worship.

[Brillopad]

You're happy enough to bash Jeremy Corbyn for having tenuous links but you aren't going to do the same for the DUP for having solidified links to terrorism? You are jumping through a lot of hoops to try to justify what is a hypocritical attitude.

If there was any real proof of Corbyn having a sympathetic attitude towards the IRA then he simply would not be in the position he is in, too many people oppose him for him to not be taken down by such accusations if they were true. The fat that he is still in a position of power after all the accusations speaks more for his innocence than his guilt.



Reading is important Brillo, you need to stop pretending people have written what you wanted them to write and comment on what they actually said. You can't keep trying to drag people for imaginary comments that you have made up.

Jet is happy enough to slate one party with links to terrorism because of their alleged links to JC but they aren't doing the same to another party with similar links because they oppose JC. I'm not calling Jet a terrorist sympathiser, i'm calling them a hypocrite.

Honestly, this should have been obvious if you actually bothered to read what I said.

That works both ways. You read what you wanted to into my posts. At no point did I call you a terrorist sympathiser. I simply pointed out when you and others supported JC despite his dubious history and links with terrorists yet were quick to accuse the DUC of being terrorists and those supporting the Tory/DUC alliance as terrorist sympathisers.

At the end of the day they are both political parties - what is the point in allowing people to form political parties , allegedly in the name of achieving peace, if you don't want to allow them the same rights as other political parties such as forming an alliance with the government.

I wonder if you would have had the same issues with Sinn Fein forming an alliance with Labour to get them in.

Hypocrisy!

[Kizzy]

That works both ways. You read what you wanted to into my posts. At no point did I call you a terrorist sympathiser. I simply pointed out when you and others supported JC despite his dubious history and links with terrorists yet were quick to accuse the DUC of being terrorists and those supporting the Tory/DUC alliance as terrorist sympathisers.

At the end of the day they are both political parties - what is the point in allowing people to form political parties , allegedly in the name of achieving peace, if you don't want to allow them the same rights as other political parties such as forming an alliance with the government.

I wonder if you would have had the same issues with Sinn Fein forming an alliance with Labour to get them in.

Hypocrisy!

So you don't think there is an issue with the DUP or Sin Fein then... So what was the problem in the lead up to the election, why was Corbyn lambasted for associating with Sin Fein?

Try to maintain focus on what is actually happening, your hypotheticals are getting very boring, The public are being held to ransom on behalf of NI for the sake of 10 votes..... they were essentially bought. No word about that: :/

[user104658]

That works both ways. You read what you wanted to into my posts. At no point did I call you a terrorist sympathiser. I simply pointed out when you and others supported JC despite his dubious history and links with terrorists yet were quick to accuse the DUC of being terrorists and those supporting the Tory/DUC alliance as terrorist sympathisers.

Well now you're just starting to sound like a bit of a quack.

[Tom4784]

You really are woefully misinformed about the complicated politics of N.Ireland. I never thought I'd see the day when I would be defending the DUP, but so many misconceptions have been bandied about to do with the N.Ireland troubles and the parties that I do a double take on a regular basis.

I will quote MTVN from earlier who does understand N.Ireland politics and include a link also posted that may help you to be more informed:



https://capx.co/criticism-of-the-dup-has-plunged-into-outright-hypocrisy/


The IRA/Sinn Fein connection was a whole different beast to any Loyalist Para/DUP connection. I have already said I oppose ALL terrorism but you chose to ignore that, just as you chose to ignore the fact that Corbyn was well known as an IRA sympathiser and supporter in N.Ireland as far back as the 70's, before he became an MP. Tenuous links my ass. You think you know better than people who lived here and experienced the Troubles from beginning to end.

Just as you chose to ignore serious commentators on TV mentioning his past IRA links and the numerous articles detailing his involvement...and tell me this - why hasn't he sued any of them if they are ALL made up?
Answer: He dare not.
I have no interest whatsoever in the DUP opposing Corbyn. I have no affiliation with either UK Conservatives or Labour, or the DUP either, so that doesn't come into it with me personally. I always voted SDLP, the Labour equivalent in N.Ireland.
Why have the accusations not taken him down? Because either his supporters are too enamoured of him to give a **** or they refuse to believe it. Just like you in fact.

But by all means keep living in your la la land of denial. You wouldn't want reality to get in the way of your Corbyn worship.

You're still hypocritical for treating TENUOUS links as gospel while ignoring the DUP links. Also drop the insults.

[Tom4784]

That works both ways. You read what you wanted to into my posts. At no point did I call you a terrorist sympathiser. I simply pointed out when you and others supported JC despite his dubious history and links with terrorists yet were quick to accuse the DUC of being terrorists and those supporting the Tory/DUC alliance as terrorist sympathisers.

At the end of the day they are both political parties - what is the point in allowing people to form political parties , allegedly in the name of achieving peace, if you don't want to allow them the same rights as other political parties such as forming an alliance with the government.

I wonder if you would have had the same issues with Sinn Fein forming an alliance with Labour to get them in.

Hypocrisy!

It's honestly hilarious that, despite being told about it multiple times, you still subconciously go to the 'I know you are but what am I?' argument every time someone catches you out.

It makes no sense to make out that I read what I want into your posts, I comment on what you actually write then you just try to backpedal and project your own issues onto other people.

You did suggest on multiple occasions that people who didn't support your views likely had sympathies for terrorism, don't backpedal because your accusations in those threads were there for everyone to see.

If these JC links are true then HOW is he still in power? I've asked this question multiple times and his haters have not been able to answer. There's too many powerful people opposing him for him to stay in power if he did have terrorist sympathies. Like I said before, his continued presence is indicative of his innocence rather than his guilt.

As for the bolded point, this is a prime example of what I was saying about you replying to what you imagined I've said rather than what I actually said. I dislike the coalition of chaos but I've never once said that it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I have a negative opinion on it, especially since it's come about as a result of a bribe but I've never been opposed to the rights of the parties to make it happen. Negative and opposite opinions are allowed, Brillo.

In fact I kind of want the Coalition of Chaos to go ahead, it'll be fun to watch people who voted Tory realise over the course of this term how badly they ****ed up. 'I told you so' shall be my mantra.

I'd be opposed to a Sinn Fein deal but it would never happen, why allign with an extremist party when it would be both easier and safer to form a coalition with the SNP or the Lib Dems? The Tory deal came out of desperation because the DUP were the only party willing to team up with them, Labour would not have that issue.

[jet]

You're still hypocritical for treating TENUOUS links as gospel while ignoring the DUP links. Also drop the insults.

I will repeat: Corbyn was well known as an IRA sympathiser and supporter in N.Ireland as far back as the 70's, before he became an MP. Tenuous links my ass. You think you know better than people who lived here and experienced the Troubles from beginning to end.

You are outright calling me a liar.

...and how am I ignoring DUP links with terrorists when I posted an informative quote and article relating to them?
I don't give a **** about the DUP. None of them may become the next UK Prime Minister, Corbyn, with his fascination for his terrorist pals, possibly could.


BTW, Why do you think he hasn't sued? Why do you think he refuses to denounce the IRA?

[Tom4784]

I will repeat:

You are outright calling me a liar.

...and how am I ignoring DUP links with terrorists when I posted an informative quote and article relating to them?
I don't give a **** about the DUP. None of them may become the next UK Prime Minister, Corbyn, with his fascination for his terrorist pals, possibly could.


BTW, Why do you think he hasn't sued? Why do you think he refuses to denounce the IRA?

Again, you are dodging the question, why is he still in power when, if there is any real evidence of this, his opposition could destroy him overnight? Why haven't they acted on what should be a smoking gun?

It makes ZERO sense that he's still in power if what he has allegedly done is true. What makes more sense is that everything has been overblown and his opposition would rather believe in the fairy tale than the truth since he simply wouldn't be where he is if the accusations had any merit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Never mind the Brexit negotiations did the DUP just pull off the best bit of negotiation in UK political history?

[user104658]

Never mind the Brexit negotiations did the DUP just pull off the best bit of negotiation in UK political history?

Nah. They could have held out for more, and May was always going to give them whatever they wanted.

[jet]

Again, you are dodging the question, why is he still in power when, if there is any real evidence of this, his opposition could destroy him overnight? Why haven't they acted on what should be a smoking gun?

It makes ZERO sense that he's still in power if what he has allegedly done is true. What makes more sense is that everything has been overblown and his opposition would rather believe in the fairy tale than the truth since he simply wouldn't be where he is if the accusations had any merit.

Once again you are calling me a liar.

....and I asked you 2 questions and you dodged both of them.

Why has he still any power? There could be many reasons. Maybe it's because there has been a peace process - The Labour gov. sneakily sent amnesty letters to IRA killers on the run - murderers were released from prison agreed by all parties - Sinn Fein are a legit political party even though it has past killers still in its ranks so....

....Why would the opposition want to bring up Corbyns links of years ago when both governments agreed to let actual killers go free ?
Would bringing it all up affect the peace process and the sensitive situation in N.Ireland? Or maybe they know that his supporters just won't care? Or they just don't care themselves? (Though some of them do as they have brought up his links and condemned him on TV.)
And what is this 'smoking gun' you speak of? There has been plenty of articles and mentions on news programmes of his activities but it's obvious that it doesn't matter to many, (look at how many on here don't care or refuse to believe it) so what would be the point? They'd just root for him all the more.

He didn't kill anyone outright himself. It's a moral issue and its down to the conscience of each individual whether or not to admire and root for a man who was personally great pals with and a supporter of the killers of many innocent woman and children.

[Alf]

Never mind the Brexit negotiations did the DUP just pull off the best bit of negotiation in UK political history?It's a great deal all round, not just for the DUP. A billion is a great deal to keep Stalin (I mean Corbyn) out of office.

[user104658]

It's a great deal all round, not just for the DUP. A billion is a great deal to keep Stalin (I mean Corbyn) out of office.
I love how people are still desperately trying to twist all of this into a great achievement for the Tories, when the fact still stands that they would still be in a MUCH better position had they simply not called an election in the first place :joker:

[Alf]

I love how people are still desperately trying to twist all of this into a great achievement for the Tories, when the fact still stands that they would still be in a MUCH better position had they simply not called an election in the first place :joker:But we can't live our lives by if's and buts. Was done is done and we have to crack on.

[user104658]

But we can't live our lives by if's and buts. Was done is done and we have to crack on.

We can't live life pretending that failures were achievements, either, though... or we run the risk of never learning from those failures. The Tories took a massive risk with this election and their gamble failed. The situation they have now with the DUP is not a good one, for anyone except the DUP, including the Tories. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Is it a better situation for the Tories / Tory supporters than Labour getting into power? Sure. But "better" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Getting chlamydia is "better" than getting syphilis... but no one's throwing a congratulations party for it.

[jet]

It's a great deal all round, not just for the DUP. A billion is a great deal to keep Stalin (I mean Corbyn) out of office.

it sure is. :hee: And to think that billion is going to the place which his IRA pals bombed the hell out of while he supported them. He must be fuming. Oh, the irony. :laugh:

[jet]

We can't live life pretending that failures were achievements, either, though... or we run the risk of never learning from those failures. The Tories took a massive risk with this election and their gamble failed. The situation they have now with the DUP is not a good one, for anyone except the DUP, including the Tories. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Is it a better situation for the Tories / Tory supporters than Labour getting into power? Sure. But "better" doesn't necessarily mean "good". Getting chlamydia is "better" than getting syphilis... but no one's throwing a congratulations party for it.

....and the whole of N.Ireland.

[jaxie]

You're happy enough to bash Jeremy Corbyn for having tenuous links but you aren't going to do the same for the DUP for having solidified links to terrorism? You are jumping through a lot of hoops to try to justify what is a hypocritical attitude.

If there was any real proof of Corbyn having a sympathetic attitude towards the IRA then he simply would not be in the position he is in, too many people oppose him for him to not be taken down by such accusations if they were true. The fat that he is still in a position of power after all the accusations speaks more for his innocence than his guilt.



Reading is important Brillo, you need to stop pretending people have written what you wanted them to write and comment on what they actually said. You can't keep trying to drag people for imaginary comments that you have made up.

Jet is happy enough to slate one party with links to terrorism because of their alleged links to JC but they aren't doing the same to another party with similar links because they oppose JC. I'm not calling Jet a terrorist sympathiser, i'm calling them a hypocrite.

Honestly, this should have been obvious if you actually bothered to read what I said.

You're selective reading again. You didn't get any of the heartfelt pain in Jet's post at all did you? You're pontificating about a very difficult situation that people have lived in a very painful way and been torn apart by.

[Vicky.]

I find it amusing (in a sad way) that theres 'no magic money tree' that could give nurses a payrise so they don't need to use foodbanks, but there is a magic money tree that created 1b to keep May in power :umm2:

[Alf]

I find it amusing (in a sad way) that theres 'no magic money tree' that could give nurses a payrise so they don't need to use foodbanks, but there is a magic money tree that created 1b to keep May in power :umm2:There wouldn't be no food banks with Corbyn, they'd just starve to death instead.

[Vicky.]

There wouldn't be no food banks with Corbyn, they'd just starve to death instead.

How do you reckon that? :suspect:

I find it disgraceful that in a rich country we have so many going to foodbanks tbh. And yes they existed under labour too but they weren't used in such high numbers. Noone who is working should ever have to use a foodbank IMO

[jaxie]

I find it amusing (in a sad way) that theres 'no magic money tree' that could give nurses a payrise so they don't need to use foodbanks, but there is a magic money tree that created 1b to keep May in power :umm2:

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa (actually I think its more like up to 35k) that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. :shrug: I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective. Peoples circumstances are all different and to say 'nurses need to use food banks' is not taking into account any of the personal circumstances around that.

I find it disgraceful in 2017 that there are people living rough on the streets but again people have circumstances and we don't always know what they are and how they came to be there, it's easy to blame the government.

[Alf]

How do you reckon that? :suspect:

I find it disgraceful that in a rich country we have so many going to foodbanks tbh. And yes they existed under labour too but they weren't used in such high numbers. Noone who is working should ever have to use a foodbank IMOThat's the usually outcome in any communist country. History tells us that.

[Kizzy]

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. :shrug: I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective.

How are you sure, what do you know about NI that makes you sure?

But you are skeptical about nurses because 22k is a 'decent wage'? Is it... Lets have a breakdown for expenses for the average nurse, lets say those who were treating the Grenfell victims. How far does their 22k go?

[Vicky.]

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa (actually I think its more like up to 35k) that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. :shrug: I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective. Peoples circumstances are all different and to say 'nurses need to use food banks' is not taking into account any of the personal circumstances around that.

I find it disgraceful in 2017 that there are people living rough on the streets but again people have circumstances and we don't always know what they are and how they came to be there, it's easy to blame the government.
No. everywhere in the UK needs investment tbh.

I just find it funny that there is no money for anything, but May can pull a billion out of her arse at the drop of a hat. Kind of like how theres no money for the NHS and so but we have plenty of money for bombs and airstrikes to other countries :shrug:

[jaxie]

How are you sure, what do you know about NI that makes you sure?

But you are skeptical about nurses because 22k is a 'decent wage'? Is it... Lets have a breakdown for expenses for the average nurse, lets say those who were treating the Grenfell victims. How far does their 22k go?

I know enough about NI to form an opinion, thanks. You can learn more if you read or make some friends that live there.

You go right ahead if you want to break down some expenses, far be it from me to stop you.

Why are you using Grenfall victims for your political agenda? That's pretty low IMO.

[jaxie]

No. everywhere in the UK needs investment tbh.

I just find it funny that there is no money for anything, but May can pull a billion out of her arse at the drop of a hat. Kind of like how theres no money for the NHS and so but we have plenty of money for bombs and airstrikes to other countries :shrug:

Well May is desperate. She has very badly miscalculated and lost her majority. It's not that funny really, of course she is going to find some money to get her out of the doo doo if she can. I will be very surprised if she survives 6 months. The bottom line is that we do have a large deficit so don't really have plenty money for any gov to spend and that's bad news for all of us but I suspect an awful lot of money is wasted. The problem is that with no rosy coloured glasses on, we aren't going to be in a better position with Labour and they probably wouldn't behave any differently were they in the same position. There is really no Corbyn on a white charger. There is just another shambles with a slightly different set of priorities.

What we really need right now is some stability.

[jet]

You're selective reading again. You didn't get any of the heartfelt pain in Jet's post at all did you? You're pontificating about a very difficult situation that people have lived in a very painful way and been torn apart by.

Thanks for understanding jaxie :kiss:

[Tom4784]

You're selective reading again. You didn't get any of the heartfelt pain in Jet's post at all did you? You're pontificating about a very difficult situation that people have lived in a very painful way and been torn apart by.

Repeating what I said to your friend isn't an argument.

I do not know Jet and this is the internet, I won't really be taken in by the 'heartfelt pain' when there's no way to know if any of it is true or not so I'd rather stick to logic.

Hating one party for terrorist links but then jumping through hoops to defend another for also having links to terrorism is just plain hypocritical, there's just no two ways about it.

Once again you are calling me a liar.

....and I asked you 2 questions and you dodged both of them.

Why has he still any power? There could be many reasons. Maybe it's because there has been a peace process - The Labour gov. sneakily sent amnesty letters to IRA killers on the run - murderers were released from prison agreed by all parties - Sinn Fein are a legit political party even though it has past killers still in its ranks so....

....Why would the opposition want to bring up Corbyns links of years ago when both governments agreed to let actual killers go free ?
Would bringing it all up affect the peace process and the sensitive situation in N.Ireland? Or maybe they know that his supporters just won't care? Or they just don't care themselves? (Though some of them do as they have brought up his links and condemned him on TV.)
And what is this 'smoking gun' you speak of? There has been plenty of articles and mentions on news programmes of his activities but it's obvious that it doesn't matter to many, (look at how many on here don't care or refuse to believe it) so what would be the point? They'd just root for him all the more.

He didn't kill anyone outright himself. It's a moral issue and its down to the conscience of each individual whether or not to admire and root for a man who was personally great pals with and a supporter of the killers of many innocent woman and children.

When did I call you a liar? I said that the accusations must not have any merit based on the fact that he has not been removed from his position.

'....Why would the opposition want to bring up Corbyns links of years ago when both governments agreed to let actual killers go free ? '

Well that's obvious, linking him to terrorism would force the rest of the Labour leadership into trying to force him out if it was true. MPs are made to step down when they are caught having affairs yet you don't think accusations of being a terrorist sympathiser would be enough to remove him from power if it was true?

Given how the media overanalyzes everything he does for reasons to slate him, it's this media that's made a point of bringing up the whole 'traitor' business so if you put 2 and 2 together you'll come to the conclusion that any 'links' to terrorism is likely overblown by a media that wants to ruin him.

It does not make a lick of sense that he'd still be in power if any of this business is true.

[jet]

Repeating what I said to your friend isn't an argument.

I do not know Jet and this is the internet, I won't really be taken in by the 'heartfelt pain' when there's no way to know if any of it is true or not so I'd rather stick to logic.

Hating one party for terrorist links but then jumping through hoops to defend another for also having links to terrorism is just plain hypocritical, there's just no two ways about it.




Then why on earth have you been conversing with me for many posts if you think I'm some kind of fraud? No, you are a wriggler. You were called out on your lack of compassion and only then decided I'm now not legit. You've wasted my time and your own as well.

[Kizzy]

I know enough about NI to form an opinion, thanks. You can learn more if you read or make some friends that live there.

You go right ahead if you want to break down some expenses, far be it from me to stop you.

Why are you using Grenfall victims for your political agenda? That's pretty low IMO.

Well help the rest of us out then who have no clue how NI is funded.. How is it comparable to say Scotland or Wales in terms of expenditure per head of the population?...

I am using Grenfell as an example as the nurses were based in London and it's well documented how well and how efficient the response was by those hospitals and yet they are denied a raise and in effect being accused of lying that they are finding it difficult to manage on the salary they receive. That is pretty low... imo

[jaxie]

Well help the rest of us out then who have no clue how NI is funded.. How is it comparable to say Scotland or Wales in terms of expenditure per head of the population?...

I am using Grenfell as an example as the nurses were based in London and it's well documented how well and how efficient the response was by those hospitals and yet they are denied a raise and in effect being accused of lying that they are finding it difficult to manage on the salary they receive. That is pretty low... imo

And none of this has any relevance to what I've said. I'm not paid to educate you. :shrug: I'll take a leaf out of your book and suggest you stop trolling me.

And still you are using a tragic fire as a means to further an agenda. :nono:

[jaxie]

Repeating what I said to your friend isn't an argument.

I do not know Jet and this is the internet, I won't really be taken in by the 'heartfelt pain' when there's no way to know if any of it is true or not so I'd rather stick to logic.

Hating one party for terrorist links but then jumping through hoops to defend another for also having links to terrorism is just plain hypocritical, there's just no two ways about it.



When did I call you a liar? I said that the accusations must not have any merit based on the fact that he has not been removed from his position.

'....Why would the opposition want to bring up Corbyns links of years ago when both governments agreed to let actual killers go free ? '

Well that's obvious, linking him to terrorism would force the rest of the Labour leadership into trying to force him out if it was true. MPs are made to step down when they are caught having affairs yet you don't think accusations of being a terrorist sympathiser would be enough to remove him from power if it was true?

Given how the media overanalyzes everything he does for reasons to slate him, it's this media that's made a point of bringing up the whole 'traitor' business so if you put 2 and 2 together you'll come to the conclusion that any 'links' to terrorism is likely overblown by a media that wants to ruin him.

It does not make a lick of sense that he'd still be in power if any of this business is true.

I don't have a relationship with Jet outside responding/reading his/her posts but I didn't need one, I read them, and I can see there is element of pain of experience in what is being said.

I can also see you are lecturing Jet with little substance to your opinion, because you seem to enjoy it rather than engaging in a discussion. :shrug:

[user104658]

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

[jaxie]

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

I disagree with you TS, I think that is unfair. You are clearly passionate about some subjects but no one here patronises you and suggests you are too emotional to discuss it.

[Tom4784]

I don't have a relationship with Jet outside responding/reading his/her posts but I didn't need one, I read them, and I can see there is element of pain of experience in what is being said.

I can also see you are lecturing Jet with little substance to your opinion, because you seem to enjoy it rather than engaging in a discussion. :shrug:

I was speaking of Brillo but never mind.

Also as for your second paragraph.

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"that, in my opinion, is right"
synonyms: belief, judgement, thought(s), school of thought, thinking, way of thinking, mind, point of view, view, viewpoint, outlook, angle, slant, side, attitude, stance, perspective, position, standpoint; More
2.
a statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.
"if in doubt, get a second opinion"

Just in case you aren't sure what one is since I wasn't lecturing anyone but simply sharing my opinion, something that I'm entitled to do and something that isn't limited to people whose opinions you agree with.

[jaxie]

I was speaking of Brillo but never mind.

Also as for your second paragraph.

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"that, in my opinion, is right"
synonyms: belief, judgement, thought(s), school of thought, thinking, way of thinking, mind, point of view, view, viewpoint, outlook, angle, slant, side, attitude, stance, perspective, position, standpoint; More
2.
a statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.
"if in doubt, get a second opinion"

Just in case you aren't sure what one is since I wasn't lecturing anyone but simply sharing my opinion, something that I'm entitled to do and something that isn't limited to people whose opinions you agree with.

It's a shame you don't take a leaf then.

[Kizzy]

And none of this has any relevance to what I've said. I'm not paid to educate you. :shrug: I'll take a leaf out of your book and suggest you stop trolling me.

And still you are using a tragic fire as a means to further an agenda. :nono:

It has relevance... Why are the govt choosing now to aid NI and not for example Wales?
Because they don't need 10 Plaid Cymru votes is why, it's been admitted in interviews that the votes were sought to keep Corbyn out of office it's a bribe from an increasingly corrupt govt.

I have no agenda, you have no basis for your claim that the nurses affected were dishonest, your smokescreen of faux outrage is proof of that.

[user104658]

I disagree with you TS, I think that is unfair. You are clearly passionate about some subjects but no one here patronises you and suggests you are too emotional to discuss it.

:shrug: I can freely admit that I have pressure-subjects that I can't be objective about. The first (and main one) is alcohol / alcoholism, another is probably autism, though I can mostly keep a level head on that one. I'm not saying I don't or wouldn't discuss those subjects but in all honesty my opinions, especially when it comes to alcohol, are always going to be skewed and I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

[Tom4784]

It's a shame you don't take a leaf then.

'I know you are but what am I?'

SD is rapidly becoming a nursery it seems. What next? Mom jokes?

[jaxie]

It has relevance... Why are the govt choosing now to aid NI and not for example Wales?
Because they don't need 10 Plaid Cymru votes is why, it's been admitted in interviews that the votes were sought to keep Corbyn out of office it's a bribe from an increasingly corrupt govt.

I already mentioned earlier why the gov are giving NI money, but I definitely don't begrudge NI it. If you aren't going to read what I say then stop quoting me, it's getting ridiculous.

I have no agenda, you have no basis for your claim that the nurses affected were dishonest, your smokescreen of faux outrage is proof of that.

I can't discuss this with you, referencing horrible tragedies to try to point score disgusts me.

[Kizzy]

I already mentioned earlier why the gov are giving NI money, but I definitely don't begrudge NI it. If you aren't going to read what I say then stop quoting me, it's getting ridiculous.



I can't discuss this with you, referencing horrible tragedies to try to point score disgusts me.

Why now?... why not at any other point over the last 7yrs, to suggest it's nothing to do with buying votes is frankly naive.

Then why enter a debate? You have no answer for your accusations, that's the real reason, your indignation is laughable.

[the truth]

Why now?... why not at any other point over the last 7yrs, to suggest it's nothing to do with buying votes is frankly naive.

Then why enter a debate? You have no answer for your accusations, that's the real reason, your indignation is laughable.

the only person buying votes is santa corbyn ...usually to workless people (The bulk of labour voters) with borrowed money we cant afford to pay back

[Kizzy]

the only person buying votes is santa corbyn ...usually to workless people (The bulk of labour voters) with borrowed money we cant afford to pay back

:joker::joker::joker:

[Kizzy]

Excellent video from the Victoria Derbyshire show here.

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/27/moment-bbc-guest-skewers-tory-mp-trying-defend-dup-deal-video/

Here's more evidence from a Fallon sky news interview that is indeed a bribe.

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/27/theresa-may-is-betrayed-by-her-own-defence-secretary-after-she-repeats-a-100-year-old-mistake-video/

( Yes it's the canary however the interviews are the true source don't forget)

[jet]

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.

[the truth]

dup are conservative it's a legitimate merger

[Cherie]

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

[user104658]

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.
When I say I think you're struggling for balance, it's not that I think what you're saying about Corbyn is wrong necessarily - I personally have seen another side to his character and have gone off him MASSIVELY since the tower fire - or that anything your saying doesn't have truth to it...

Its more that you've become so laser-focussed on Corbyn and his potential wrongdoing that you are less willing to hear or engage in criticisms of the Tories / the DUP / their alliance.

I guess it's important to remember that just because one side of something is bad... That doesn't mean that the other side of the coin is necessarily good. Even if you think it's "better", it's still OK to be able to criticise it... You don't have to Stan the opposition to "stick it to" the side you dislike more, I guess is what I'm saying.

In this case, I feel that increasingly, you're unwilling to look with a skeptical eye at the Tory/DUP deal because you immediately flip into "Corbyn would be worse!!" mode. But Corbyn isn't the discussion. Take Corbyn completely out of the equation and look at it in the most basic or terms... And the Tory/DUP alliance - even WITH the extra spending for NI - is potentially headed for real problems. It's not a good or desirable situation. What I mean by lacking balance is, it's gotten to the point where you are willing to pretend that it's all great, "because it isn't Corbyn". Your early posts on the topic included healthy criticism of the DUP too but that has all but evaporated now.

[Brillopad]

You need to think how you come across at times.
Those in Scotland are aware of religious tensions particularly in Glasgow in the past.
Where hate,real hate as to just 2 football clubs was in evidence.
Everyone condemns the violence and killings in Northern Ireland.
I am full Irish on my Mother's side, I am also born Catholic.
I've seen when young the darker side of events in N Ireland, although my ancestry is from the South of Ireland.

Would I like a united Ireland,probably yes.
However bigoted sectarian parties still hold onto past glories,if that's an appropriate word.
They love shoving that at people every year.

It has nothing to do with being left,right or centre,it was hoped the UK and N Ireland had at least,while still condemning the past,were moving on at long last.
That is what should be the aim and what is endlessly worked at and for.
Not keeping the old hate and grievances to the forefront,thereby sacrificing all future for the past.

Let us Hope in keeping to the title of this thread, that agreement by both the DUP and Sinn Féinn comes about as to power sharing today.

Because if it doesn't and direct rule is imposed from Westminster.
Then with the DUP firmly having this govt in it's grip,that will likely open a very dangerous indeed can of worms again.

And what if the shoe had been on the other foot and Sinn Fein joined an alliance with Labour - I get the impression you would be okay with that - which would be sheer hypocrisy. :shrug:

[jaxie]

You need to think how you come across at times.
Those in Scotland are aware of religious tensions particularly in Glasgow in the past.
Where hate,real hate as to just 2 football clubs was in evidence.
Everyone condemns the violence and killings in Northern Ireland.
I am full Irish on my Mother's side, I am also born Catholic.
I've seen when young the darker side of events in N Ireland, although my ancestry is from the South of Ireland.

Would I like a united Ireland,probably yes.
However bigoted sectarian parties still hold onto past glories,if that's an appropriate word.
They love shoving that at people every year.

It has nothing to do with being left,right or centre,it was hoped the UK and N Ireland had at least,while still condemning the past,were moving on at long last.
That is what should be the aim and what is endlessly worked at and for.
Not keeping the old hate and grievances to the forefront,thereby sacrificing all future for the past.

Let us Hope in keeping to the title of this thread, that agreement by both the DUP and Sinn Féinn comes about as to power sharing today.

Because if it doesn't and direct rule is imposed from Westminster.
Then with the DUP firmly having this govt in it's grip,that will likely open a very dangerous indeed can of worms again.

1. Because I spoke up for someone who was being treated with disdain? How do you come across?
2. People are indoctrinated into religion not born into it.
3. See your own words bold 4 and take your own advice re bold 3.
4. There are 2 sides in a conflict and both are part of peoples history. People don't forget loss and pain, that is entirely different to keeping alive old grievances.

[the truth]

1. Because I spoke up for someone who was being treated with disdain? How do you come across?
2. People are indoctrinated into religion not born into it.
3. See your own words bold 4.
4. There are 2 sides in a conflict and both are part of peoples history. People don't forget loss and pain, that is entirely different to keeping alive old grievances.

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

[jaxie]

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

You are suggesting a baby is born with a religious affiliation?

Billions of people are offended by the idea religion is taught? Can't be helped I guess.


indoctrinate
ɪnˈdɒktrɪneɪt/Submit
verb
past tense: indoctrinated; past participle: indoctrinated
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize, inculcate, re-educate, persuade, convince, condition, discipline, mould; More
archaic
teach or instruct (someone).
"he indoctrinated them in systematic theology"

[Brillopad]

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

I think Jaxie's point is correct. People are generally taught religion as children and believe in what their patents believe. It is largely habit.

The only time a religous belief carries any weight is when someone adopts a belief in adulthood - and even then without knowing the circumstances i.e. Mental health, company they keep etc it is always questionable.

[joeysteele]

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

On this I agree with you.

You are,for instance, born to a family you are part of that family not indoctrinated to it.

If your family has a religion you are born into that,as you are your family's way of life too.

Once older you can and do of course alter that state and may dismiss the religion,people also cut ties with family for many reasons.
That was as you say a very generalised possibly offensive comment I agree.
However I expected just that coming anyway.

[jet]

When I say I think you're struggling for balance, it's not that I think what you're saying about Corbyn is wrong necessarily - I personally have seen another side to his character and have gone off him MASSIVELY since the tower fire - or that anything your saying doesn't have truth to it...

Its more that you've become so laser-focussed on Corbyn and his potential wrongdoing that you are less willing to hear or engage in criticisms of the Tories / the DUP / their alliance.

I guess it's important to remember that just because one side of something is bad... That doesn't mean that the other side of the coin is necessarily good. Even if you think it's "better", it's still OK to be able to criticise it... You don't have to Stan the opposition to "stick it to" the side you dislike more, I guess is what I'm saying.

In this case, I feel that increasingly, you're unwilling to look with a skeptical eye at the Tory/DUP deal because you immediately flip into "Corbyn would be worse!!" mode. But Corbyn isn't the discussion. Take Corbyn completely out of the equation and look at it in the most basic or terms... And the Tory/DUP alliance - even WITH the extra spending for NI - is potentially headed for real problems. It's not a good or desirable situation. What I mean by lacking balance is, it's gotten to the point where you are willing to pretend that it's all great, "because it isn't Corbyn". Your early posts on the topic included healthy criticism of the DUP too but that has all but evaporated now.

Nowhere did I say it was all great, or that any party was all great, please don't put words into my mouth. The only positive thing that I can see at present is the 1 billion for N.Ireland.

It's not that I lost balance, more that I responded to misconceptions that people have about my part of the country and the DUP. I don't like the party, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to correct misconceptions about them. I dislike Sinn Fein intensely, and am only too glad to criticise aspects of their past/present, but if someone posted something negative that I knew wasn't true I'd correct that as well.
And now I've finished here. Have a very nice day TS, and hopefully we'll discuss again under more pleasant circumstances sometime. :hee:

[jet]

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

Absolutely. :thumbs:

[Vicky.]

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

[Brillopad]

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

She's having to put aside quite a stash to get out of Europe no doubt - I can't see how one more billion can make much difference especially when it is for the greater good - no Corbyn.

[Tom4784]

She's having to put aside quite a stash to get out of Europe no doubt - I can't see how one more billion can make much difference especially when it is for the greater good - no Corbyn.

How about the NHS? The depleted police force? Education and public services in general? All could have benefited from the money used to keep May in power.

[Brillopad]

How about the NHS? The depleted police force? Education and public services in general? All could have benefited from the money used to keep May in power.

Not at that stage - if she made another u-turn that late in the game she would have had no majority and Corbyn may have got in.

[Tom4784]

Not at that stage - if she made another u-turn that late in the game she would have had no majority and Corbyn may have got in.

Maybe that would have been for the best considering she wasted a billion to stay in power when public services are gasping for air.

What she did is indefensible and if the situation was reversed I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same way.

[DemolitionRed]

Even with the DUP they have a majority of... em... SEVEN. That's not a practical "working majority" and not sustainable for 5 years. A couple of heart attacks, a couple of Tory MPs resigning. It will take less than a year for all this gerrymandering to go ****! majority gone. So the logic is there has to be another election later this year in the hope of getting a working majority.

And elections, cost lots of money and are paid for out of our pockets. I don't doubt that we are all going to be put through this ordeal of political flag waving again. The only good thing about that is, the Labour Party now have the smell of Tory blood in their nostrils. All May would be doing would be consolidating her defeat!

[the truth]

You are suggesting a baby is born with a religious affiliation?

Billions of people are offended by the idea religion is taught? Can't be helped I guess.


indoctrinate
ɪnˈdɒktrɪneɪt/Submit
verb
past tense: indoctrinated; past participle: indoctrinated
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize, inculcate, re-educate, persuade, convince, condition, discipline, mould; More
archaic
teach or instruct (someone).
"he indoctrinated them in systematic theology"

Putting words into other peoples mouths is such a kindergarden way of debating. I said nothing of the kind and you know it.:nono:

[jaxie]

Putting words into other peoples mouths is such a kindergarden way of debating. I said nothing of the kind and you know it.:nono:

Were I purporting to quote you and feed words into your mouth like toast, there would have been no question mark asking if this is what you mean. :shrug:

I said Babies aren't born with religion and are indoctrinated. You said that was offensive, I gave you a dictionary for indoctrinate which basically means to teach or instruct. I asked if that was what you were saying. Read it all back it'll make sense and actually it isn't at all offensive. :hee:

I can quite cheerfully be rude about religion, but on this occasion I was just stating a fact. If you can prove it's not a fact and that children are born with religious inclination and it isn't taught to them, please do, I'll happily listen.

[the truth]

Were I purporting to quote you and feed words into your mouth like toast, there would have been no question mark asking if this is what you mean. :shrug:

I said Babies aren't born with religion and are indoctrinated. You said that was offensive, I gave you a dictionary for indoctrinate which basically means to teach or instruct. I asked if that was what you were saying. Read it all back it'll make sense and actually it isn't at all offensive. :hee:

I can quite cheerfully be rude about religion, but on this occasion I was just stating a fact. If you can prove it's not a fact and that children are born with religious inclination and it isn't taught to them, please do, I'll happily listen.
That is not what you said and not what I replied to, as you know
You are being totally disingenuous again (dishonest) as for indoctrination, there are thousands of influences that help form who we become, religions are just 1 of them and all religions are all different and all religious people are different. You seem to generalize about all religions and all religious people as being the same with the same beliefs which is entirely untrue

[jaxie]

That is not what you said and not what I replied to, as you know
You are being totally disingenuous again (dishonest) as for indoctrination, there are thousands of influences that help form who we become, religions are just 1 of them and all religions are all different and all religious people are different. You seem to generalize about all religions and all religious people as being the same with the same beliefs which is entirely untrue

What I said is there in black and white. If you are reading into it something I'm not saying that isn't really my problem.

This thread isn't religious chat 101 but if you want to discuss doctrine I'll happy chat to you in private message about it. And yes you are quite right I do talk about religion being the same thing, a huge fantasy. But I'm not sure how relevant that is to my saying children aren't born with religious affiliations. :shrug: The fact is a baby doesn't have those kind of opinions.

[Cherie]

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

Ah yeah the money thing is ridiculous 7 years of austerity they are rolling in cash

[Kizzy]

Well well well... Proof that it isn't 'government' money, or 'conservative' money.
It's OUR money.

'Parliament will need to approve the release of £1bn in funding for Northern Ireland promised to the Democratic Unionist party by Theresa May to secure its support after the general election, the government has conceded.

Challenged by the campaigner Gina Miller about the legal basis for releasing the funds, which have not yet been made available, the Treasury solicitor, who heads the Government Legal Department, said it “will have appropriate parliamentary authorisation”, adding: “No timetable has been set for the making of such payments.”

Replying to a legal letter from Miller and the Independent Workers Union of Great Britain (IWGB), Jonathan Jones said the government intends to use “long-established procedures, under which central government requests the grant of money by the House of Commons” in order to pay out the funds it promised the DUP in the controversial agreement in June.'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/tory-dup-1bn-payment-needs-parliaments-approval-after-gina-miller-challenge

[Withano]

Gina Miller is always so busy!

[joeysteele]

The opposition in opposing shocker eh :D

And we don't have austerity because of Labour. We have austeiry as the Conservatives want it that way. Austerity actually slows growth too, so **** knows why they went down that route...also..the banking crash would have been even worse under the Tories as they wanted LESS regulation on the banks.


Well said Vicky.

Dear me the Cons even opposed the minimum wage legislation when Labour was in govt.
How odd to have oppositions actually opposing.

It's why I'd prefer a change to the electoral system to help steer to more concensus politics.

I've made the point many times in the past on here too, the Cons wanted the Banks regulated less between 2005 to the time of the worldwide financial crash.

It would as you say,have been likely far worse had the Cons taken govt in 2005 and then actually carried out regulating the Banks less.

[Kizzy]

Fantastic news, personally I take this to mean that it has been accepted that the 'deal' struck is failing and/or not constitutional and therefore will not be accepted in parliament as an acceptable use of public funds.

Theresa’s May fragile grab on power has been laid bare after the Democratic Unionist Party announced it was voting with Labour on two crunch issues.

The party propping up the Conservatives will dramatically switch sides by backing Jeremy Corbyn’s bid to secure higher NHS pay and block hikes in student fees.

The Tories are now expected to sit in their hands in the two votes – allowing the motions to pass in the belief they do not bind the Government to act.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dup-vote-labour-minority-government-conservatives-tory-party-nhs-pay-student-tuition-a7945071.html

[Tom4784]

Ew, I hope Labour knows better than to get into bed with the DUP. I will not support any party that partners with a group that promotes homophobia and is anti-women's rights.

I'm glad this deal seems to be falling apart though, public funds should not be used to keep Theresa May in power. It's a gross injustice if it were to happen.

[Kizzy]

Ew, I hope Labour knows better than to get into bed with the DUP. I will not support any party that partners with a group that promotes homophobia and is anti-women's rights.

I'm glad this deal seems to be falling apart though, public funds should not be used to keep Theresa May in power. It's a gross injustice if it were to happen.

I don't think it's a 'deal' to vote with them as such just a 'conscious uncoupling' from the tories :laugh:

They will effectively be voting with other parties too that think that these fees are exploitative.

[Kizzy]

The beginning of the end?.... * crosses fingers

The Democratic Unionist Party has dramatically threatened to rethink its deal to prop up Theresa May in power if she compromises over the Irish border after Brexit.

Sammy Wilson, one of the DUP’s 10 MPs, said the party would not accept any moves that would see Northern Ireland “treated differently than the rest of the UK”.

The warning follows reports that further powers could be devolved to Belfast allowing rules in areas such as agriculture and energy to be aligned with the EU – rather than London.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dup-theresa-may-tory-deal-ireland-border-brexit-irish-border-northern-ireland-a8085046.html