Grenfell death toll 'could have been covered up' to avoid riots, MP suggests

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Government says "nobody is hiding anything" as an MP raises fears of a cover-up and tower block residents demand justice.

http://www.eadt.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.5075477.1498249675!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, who lost a friend in the disaster, raised fears of a cover-up.

"What people say is that if you put the numbers out early, there could be civil unrest. That's what they say," he told BBC2's Newsnight.

"I am sympathetic to it, I am going to walk alongside those people."

Asked if he believed the number of dead had not been released due to the potential for civil unrest, he said: "The truth is the media cycle is now beginning to move on to other things, that's the truth.

"And so what people say is that in two, three weeks' time, if you start to reveal the numbers, things have moved on."

"In one flat alone, people say there were up to 40 people gathering, because they gathered in the flat, it was Ramadan," he said.

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-fire-residents-demand-to-be-heard-in-inquiry-10928385


What do you think?

[Kazanne]

Talk about trying to cause trouble and diversity.Someone must be bored

[Toy Soldier]

Talk about trying to cause trouble and diversity.


:think:

[Tom4784]

Hundreds of people died in that tower, it's disgusting that weeks on the government is refusing to acknowledge that to save their own skins.

[Toy Soldier]

They really do need to release a more plausible estimate for the number killed. What do they think is going to happen? That t hey might over-estimate and then people will be annoyed that there are fewer dead than they had thought? Surely it's worse to be told that 70 are dead and then find out it's 200, than be told that 300 are dead and find out it's 200 :think:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

maybe there were like twice the number of people in that block than there should have been and the council knew about it but because they did nowt about it they dont want the number coming out?

[Kazanne]

How would the government etc, know how many people were in there, do visitors have to sign in ? there are rumours of 40 in one flat,how would the authorities KNOW that ?

[arista]

Lammy is a Trouble maker

[Toy Soldier]

How would the government etc, know how many people were in there, do visitors have to sign in ? there are rumours of 40 in one flat,how would the authorities KNOW that ?

They wouldn't, but they could provide a more realistic estimate until a full search of the building has been completed.

[Vicky.]

Obviously there are more than the 70 or so deaths that is claimed so far. I can well believe this. Even without 40 (?!) gathered in one flat there shoiuld be like 4 or 5 hundred residents in such a large block. Anyone who was in the top few floors are probably dead :S

[jet]

How would the government etc, know how many people were in there, do visitors have to sign in ? there are rumours of 40 in one flat,how would the authorities KNOW that ?

No point in talking common sense Kazanne. As happens in any tragedy, the numbers will be released as people are identified and known to be definitely deceased. The authorities aren't going to play guessing games.

[smudgie]

If they believe only 79 people are believed missing/dead, then someone somewhere is basing this on the expected people believed to be in the building at the time.
Pretty obvious that there could have been many more people in the block of flats that are known about.
Unless they are actually reported missing by family and friends then it will be very difficult to know how many.
To think that there will be an actual body count might be just too hopeful.

[Tom4784]

At this point it should be obvious who is dead, it's been weeks since it happened, if the people who had been living in those flats haven't gotten in touch with anyone since the fire and they aren't already accounted for then they are almost certainly dead.

[Kizzy]

Do they think we are stupid?... 79 dead in a block that holds almost 600!

Of course theres a cover up!

[Vicky.]

At this point it should be obvious who is dead, it's been weeks since it happened, if the people who had been living in those flats haven't gotten in touch with anyone since the fire and they aren't already accounted for then they are almost certainly dead.

Well of course. If they had been out somewhere at the time and the building went up in flames, they are hardly likely to just **** off and never contact anyone again. Why on earth would they do that? First thing I would do is contact family to let them know I am ok :S

[MTVN]

Well of course. If they had been out somewhere at the time and the building went up in flames, they are hardly likely to just **** off and never contact anyone again. Why on earth would they do that? First thing I would do is contact family to let them know I am ok :S

Well there have been cases like this where a woman had been feared dead by everybody but was actually alive: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/woman-feared-dead-grenfell-tower-fire-turns-alive-hospital/amp/

[Vicky.]

Well there have been cases like this where a woman had been feared dead by everybody but was actually alive: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/woman-feared-dead-grenfell-tower-fire-turns-alive-hospital/amp/

Your connection is not secure

The owner of www.telegraph.co.uk has configured their website improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website. I get that when trying to click that D:

Guessing story from link name...the hospital didn't contact her next of kin? Pretty crap.

[Kizzy]

Well that accounts for 1 missing person... where are the rest?

[MTVN]

I get that when trying to click that D:

Guessing story from link name...the hospital didn't contact her next of kin? Pretty crap.

She was actually in hospital surrounded by her family who hadn't realised there were loads of people out looking for her and posters put up :unsure: so I'm not sure if she was officially considered missing or not. I guess it is problematic when a lot of the residents will have been immigrants who might not speak much English and have little contact with the authorities.

[MTVN]

Well that accounts for 1 missing person... where are the rest?

Most of them probably are dead. We will know for sure in due course - why are you so impatient to declare them dead now?

[smudgie]

Well that accounts for 1 missing person... where are the rest?

Who are the rest though Kizzy?
Only 79 reported dead or missing, surely that would mean the rest are all accounted for.
The saddest thing about it is that there may be no closure for some families as identification of everybody could be impossible.

[Shaun]

Without wanting to get too graphic I saw someone say that a cremation takes four hours and leaves effectively no remains... the fire lasted for over 24 didn't it? I just don't know if there's ever going to be everything found.

[Wizard.]

David Lammy is a known manipulator and will say anything to make the Conservatives look bad. In addition, I think 79 people is bad PR anyways and I would see no reason for a cover up and also there are independent institutions that deal with these things.

[smudgie]

Without wanting to get too graphic I saw someone say that a cremation takes four hours and leaves effectively no remains... the fire lasted for over 24 didn't it? I just don't know if there's ever going to be everything found.

Something that crossed my mind as well Shaun, we have to accept that some people will never be accounted for unless they are reported missing as there won't be anything left to identify them by.
Very sad.

[MTVN]

Who are the rest though Kizzy?
Only 79 reported dead or missing, surely that would mean the rest are all accounted for.
The saddest thing about it is that there may be no closure for some families as identification of everybody could be impossible.

That's true actually, the 79 death toll does include the missing

The officer in charge did say they expect that to rise though because of people who might have been in the flats who they did not know were in there/were not official residents

[Kizzy]

Most of them probably are dead. We will know for sure in due course - why are you so impatient to declare them dead now?

Impatient... Why were they so quick to vastly underestimate the number of dead it 17? Is a better question, it was to avoid a bigger national outcry while the govt sorted out their grubby DUP deal!

[Kizzy]

Who are the rest though Kizzy?
Only 79 reported dead or missing, surely that would mean the rest are all accounted for.
The saddest thing about it is that there may be no closure for some families as identification of everybody could be impossible.

I don't believe that for one minute frankly. There will of course be ways to identify bodies.

[Vicky.]

Most of them probably are dead. We will know for sure in due course - why are you so impatient to declare them dead now?

Probably as it really does seem like a huge coverup

Far too many unaccounted for and estimates should be much higher. Not confirmed deaths, estimates

[Vicky.]

I don't believe that for one minute frankly. There will of course be ways to identify bodies.

Will there be 'bodies' though? Except for the flats where the fire was put out faster i guess. I saw it claimed by a fireman that there were 3 tents full of 'bodies' but that could of course be bull. Have seen a few residents in facebook videos saying they saw bodies being brought out of the flats after dark too..as if they were trying to keep it on the quiet :S

[Kizzy]

Will there be 'bodies' though? Except for the flats where the fire was put out faster i guess. I saw it claimed by a fireman that there were 3 tents full of 'bodies' but that could of course be bull. Have seen a few residents in facebook videos saying they saw bodies being brought out of the flats after dark too..as if they were trying to keep it on the quiet :S

I don't doubt that, the truth will out in time it always does, look at Hillsborough and how long they had to wait for justice.

[Brillopad]

I don't believe that for one minute frankly. There will of course be ways to identify bodies.

Not if they were illegal immigrants. They have to have something to work with.

[Kizzy]

Not if they were illegal immigrants. They have to have something to work with.

They will be identifiable as human ...probably more so dead than alive.

[smudgie]

I don't believe that for one minute frankly. There will of course be ways to identify bodies.

Unfortunately there could be no body left to identify in some cases.
Very difficult to DNA ashes in a building that size with so much damage.

[Kizzy]

Unfortunately there could be no body left to identify in some cases.
Very difficult to DNA ashes in a building that size with so much damage.

There will be skulls and bone, identifiable as a body.

[Kizzy]

Sorry no money, we gave it all to the DUP.


'Councils face bills running to hundreds of millions of pounds to make tower blocks safe after the Government said it would not guarantee extra money to pay for vital work to prevent a repeat of the Grenfell disaster.

Ninety-five high-rise buildings in 32 local authority areas have failed safety tests, the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) said yesterday, with hundreds more blocks still to be tested.

'The findings prompted Theresa May to announce a “major national investigation” into the use of cladding on high-rise blocks, with every sample so far tested in the wake of the Grenfell found to be unsafe.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-scandal-council-funding-government-no-guarantee-local-government-budgets-a7809216.html

[Kizzy]

https://www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/videos/10154950927281636/

PMQs concerning cladding

[Cherie]

Do they think we are stupid?... 79 dead in a block that holds almost 600!

Of course theres a cover up!

How do you know there were 600 that seems a lot of people crammed into 120 one and two bed flats? Some elderly residents will be living alone, not every flat will have been occupied on the night either, if the council don't know how many were living there I don't know how anyone can know for sure how many were there on that night

[Tom4784]

Most of them probably are dead. We will know for sure in due course - why are you so impatient to declare them dead now?

I think it's more to do with the fact that the government are taking their time so they can sweep it under the carpet until the public have moved on to the next story.

It's been weeks, they know how many people are dead but they are withholding that information for their own benefit.

[Kizzy]

How do you know there were 600 that seems a lot of people crammed into 120 one and two bed flats? Some elderly residents will be living alone, not every flat will have been occupied on the night either, if the council don't know how many were living there I don't know how anyone can know for sure how many were there on that night

''How many people live at Grenfell Tower?
An exact figure is unknown but it is a 24-storey tower block and there are thought to be around 24 people per floor.
This would leave the total at around 600 (576) although authorities have no idea how many people were in their homes during the fire.
Kensington and Chelsea Council leader Nick Paget-Brown suggested, ‘several hundred would have been in there. It’s a question of establishing how many people were in there at the time of the fire''


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/where-is-grenfell-tower-and-how-many-people-live-there-6707624/#ixzz4lIWbFZGn

[arista]

https://www.facebook.com/TheIndependentOnline/videos/10154950927281636/

PMQs concerning cladding


Yes Blair New Labour started it

[Kizzy]

Yes Blair New Labour started it

Started what? cladding with combustable material or the regeneration project.... I wouldn't be so quick to latch on to that until there is conformation of how many towers are affected and when they were clad.

[Cherie]

''How many people live at Grenfell Tower?
An exact figure is unknown but it is a 24-storey tower block and there are thought to be around 24 people per floor.
This would leave the total at around 600 (576) although authorities have no idea how many people were in their homes during the fire.
Kensington and Chelsea Council leader Nick Paget-Brown suggested, ‘several hundred would have been in there. It’s a question of establishing how many people were in there at the time of the fire''


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/where-is-grenfell-tower-and-how-many-people-live-there-6707624/#ixzz4lIWbFZGn

I think the operative words there are the figure is unknown...the Asian man who was rescued was alone, I have seen a few families who have elderly/disabled relatives missing who lived alone, the young Italian couple who had just moved People seem to be assuming that all the flats were heaving with people, but the bedroom tax is a thing because people in social housing do have spare rooms especially if the lived there all their lives, some residents have formed groups now to see if the count is underestimated, I think it's difficult as people might have been staying over but equally residents might not have been in the building that night, and some are not coming forward for their own reasons

[jaxie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741

Det Supt Fiona McCormack said the full toll will only be known when the search and recovery operation is over.
She said: "What I can say is that we believe that around 80 people are either dead or sadly missing and I must presume that they are dead."
The officer added: "I don't want there to be any hidden victims. We want to understand the true human cost of this tragedy."

[Brillopad]

Impatient... Why were they so quick to vastly underestimate the number of dead it 17? Is a better question, it was to avoid a bigger national outcry while the govt sorted out their grubby DUP deal!

Ever the conspiracy theorist. No-one is saying there aren't many more victims. 80 or 800 - equally as serious and devastating. Why would anyone try to hush up the real figure. It makes no sense.

[Kizzy]

I think the operative words there are the figure is unknown...the Asian man who was rescued was alone, I have seen a few families who have elderly/disabled relatives missing who lived alone, the young Italian couple who had just moved People seem to be assuming that all the flats were heaving with people, but the bedroom tax is a thing because people in social housing do have spare rooms especially if the lived there all their lives, some residents have formed groups now to see if the count is underestimated, I think it's difficult as people might have been staying over but equally residents might not have been in the building that night, and some are not coming forward for their own reasons

Why is the figure unknown? Council tax is a thing too it shows who is in your property and their ages.
The estimate of 2 persons per flat per floor would be an over estimate in some properties and under in others surely?

[Kizzy]

Ever the conspiracy theorist. No-one is saying there aren't many more victims. 80 or 800 - equally as serious and devastating. Why would anyone try to hush up the real figure. It makes no sense.

For the reason given in the OP maybe?

[Crimson Dynamo]

this whole thing stinks

80 my absolute arse

[Brillopad]

this whole thing stinks

80 my absolute arse

That's for now - they accept there will be many more.

[Cherie]

Why is the figure unknown? Council tax is a thing too it shows who is in your property and their ages.
The estimate of 2 persons per flat per floor would be an over estimate in some properties and under in others surely?

If there were 600 people in the building you would have an average of 5 people in every flat

[DemolitionRed]

Grenfell included quite a few relatively big flats -3 bedrooms and even some 4-beds. Hence the large number of children. I guess (quite conservatively) the number of bedrooms must be over 300.

Here's a plan (https://www.e-architect.co.uk/london/grenfell-tower-in-west-london/attachment/grenfell-tower-london-floor-plan-layout-x170617) of just one floor

edited to replace bad link

[Kizzy]

If there were 600 people in the building you would have an average of 5 people in every flat

Wow you really are labouring on this point, seeing as there are no official records available would 500 be a figure you can get your head around? I did notice they weren't counting the people that threw themselves or children out of the windows as having died in the fire. That may have some significance.

[Cherie]

Wow you really are labouring on this point, seeing as there are no official records available would 500 be a figure you can get your head around? I did notice they weren't counting the people that threw themselves or children out of the windows as having died in the fire. That may have some significance.

You ended your post to me with a question mark should I not follow up ..I can get my head around many figures what I don't like is people pulling figures out of the air to suit an agenda

[Kizzy]

You ended your post to me with a question mark should I not follow up ..I can get my head around many figures what I don't like is people pulling figures out of the air to suit an agenda

They were the figures as reported Cherie I did not pull them out of the air :/

It stands to reason that a block of 24 storeys is going to have more than a couple of hundred living in it.

''The 1970s-era Grenfell tower block is believed to have contained 120 flats and have been home to between 400 and 600 people. But undocumented migrants and visiting partners, friends, and relatives are not included in this figure.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-130-residents-missing-neighbour-amanda-fernandez-high-rise-fire-rehousing-a7811461.html

[Livia]

Some people sub-let, have friends staying, have friends staying who are illegally here, have strangers staying, have family staying... I'm not sure how the government is supposed to know exactly how many people were in there at the time of the fire especially in light of the fact that it's going to take a long time for forensic tests on the remains to prove anything at all.

[Kizzy]

Who suggested they should know who had guests?... They would however know who were the tenants/residents, if we are to factor in guests should there not be an over estimate not an under estimate though? :/

[Cherie]

Who suggested they should know who had guests?... They would however know who were the tenants/residents, if we are to factor in guests should there not be an over estimate not an under estimate though? :/

If I illegally sublet my purchased council flat which I should be living in myself am I going to alert the council? If I let someone not on the tenancy sleep on my sofa for a year am I going to alert the council, in your world Kizzy everyone is above board in their dealings apart from the government

[Kizzy]

If I illegally sublet my purchased council flat which I should be living in myself am I going to alert the council? If I let someone not on the tenancy sleep on my sofa for a year am I going to alert the council, in your world Kizzy everyone is above board in their dealings apart from the government

Your hypothetical has little to do with the original issue..even if it wasn't ( for the sake of your scenario) the flat owners in residence someone undoubtedly WAS in residence.

What has this to do with how many are said to have died, why are you essentially accusing victims of such dishonesty without evidence?

[the truth]

The cladding is the problem and its been applied illegally across the whole country in loads of councils , labour tory and others. Yes you can say the cutbacks to the public services should be discussed but would that have made a difference here to a 26 storey building with combustible cladding and one staircase and no sprinklers either?

Clearly we all know now every tower must have 2 staircases , sprinklers and none of this cladding

But to play the blame game from one party to another is a dangerous one here. I think corbyn is right to argue for more police and more firemen/women. But he and others must understand 1) How to pay for it and 2) How to reduce the insane waste of public resources across every council in the country which could also save billions

Councils and politicians simply do not work well enough together, the system is a hell of a mess, communication breakdowns everywhere, roads dug up endlessly, departments not communicating to one another, its all just so mindless...if anyone is to blame its the system itself

[jaxie]

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

[Cherie]

Your hypothetical has little to do with the original issue..even if it wasn't ( for the sake of your scenario) the flat owners in residence someone undoubtedly WAS in residence.

What has this to do with how many are said to have died, why are you essentially accusing victims of such dishonesty without evidence?

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm trying to explain to you why it's not as simple as you seem to think it is to pull out a list of residents, and then to confirm who was there or not there on the night. If you can't accept that it is not a straight forward procedure that's your problem

[Kizzy]

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm trying to explain to you why it's not as simple as you seem to think it is to pull out a list of residents, and then to confirm who was there or not there on the night. If you can't accept that it is not a straight forward procedure that's your problem

This to do with my original point that the building housed almost 600 people... You have gone to extraordinary lengths for whatever reason to suggest I'm wrong on that.
I appreciate that you don't share my view that the death toll from the fire/ inhalation of fumes/ falls from windows is higher than reported thus far.

[Kizzy]

Not the residents but better than nothing..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/grenfell-survivors-barred-from-council-meeting-about-fire

[Brillopad]

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

Agreed - it's just a cheap and tasteless excuse to attack the Government and invent a whole host of conspiracy theories.

[Cherie]

This to do with my original point that the building housed almost 600 people... You have gone to extraordinary lengths for whatever reason to suggest I'm wrong on that.
I appreciate that you don't share my view that the death toll from the fire/ inhalation of fumes/ falls from windows is higher than reported thus far.

Extraordinary lengths? I've merely reiterated what you said in your posts, no one knows how many people were in the building and my view is speculation is not helping anyone

[Kizzy]

I think all the quibbling over numbers is tasteless. To be blunt, and it makes me feel sick to think about it because it's awful, if the fire is hot enough there won't be any remains but ashes. Not even teeth or bone. It's going to take months to find out exactly how many bodies there are.

There is no way for anyone to know how many people were in the flats that night apart from the numbers of those reported missing and there might have been people in there that haven't even been reported missing yet for many different reasons. Such as no one knowing they were there, or people whose family live in another country etc.

To blame anyone (gov, fire brigade, police, council) for not knowing all the numbers and facts within a couple of weeks of the fire is ridiculous. How can they possibly know until an investigation is completed?

Numbers?..... These are people! :/

I am not the only person querying why the body tally was estimated so low initially or why there was not a more joined up response to account for the residents.

[Kizzy]

Extraordinary lengths? I've merely reiterated what you said in your posts, no one knows how many people were in the building and my view is speculation is not helping anyone

Speculation?... We're on a discussion forum this isn't a COBRA meeting :/

[jaxie]

Numbers?..... These are people! :/

I am not the only person querying why the body tally was estimated so low initially or why there was not a more joined up response to account for the residents.

And I'm not the one talking numbers and tallies.

Since my post wasn't a response or quote of you I see no reason for you to assume it's all about you.

[Kizzy]

Whether is was or wasn't is irrelevant, I chose to make a point based on my opinion on it.

I objected to the suggestion there was quibbling over 'numbers', personally I would have liked to have seen the council offer something as to the tenants and residents registered to Grenfell.
The lack of a response and subsequent media blackout of council meeting suggests to me they have something to hide.

[jaxie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40465399

Shocking!

[smudgie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40465399

Shocking!

I would be worried about more than the cladding.
What about the insulation and the air chimney?
They would have been better off just painting the outside and spending the money on improving the inside of the flats.

[Vicky.]

Apparently councils are not to get any funding to fix these death traps. So they have to find a lot of money from already stretched budgets :/ So cutting corners elsewhere no doubt

[Kazanne]

Apparently councils are not to get any funding to fix these death traps. So they have to find a lot of money from already stretched budgets :/ So cutting corners elsewhere no doubt

I do think councils waste a lot of money Vicky,for example the council in charge of the area I live, post glossy monthly magazines full of adverts etc, cardboard flyers every month about the council ,wrapped in cellophane and glossy calendars every year sent to 1000s of residents, I've noticed they have had all their vans painted with illustrations on the side,all which must cost 1000s of pounds, which is unnecessary imo,I would guess all councils do this and people I talk to are annoyed as they don't bother with repairs like they should,so ,I do think the money they have,they waste.

[Vicky.]

Oh yes councils do waste money. But even so, I think something like this should be properly funded tbh. Not all councils will have such waste and may not be able to fin d the funds to actually sort this problem without cutting corners elsewhere which could lead to another scandal in a few years time. I am of the opinion that lives and safety matter more than money tbh.

[Tom4784]

Better to spend money bribing the DUP than it is to make sure that these buildings are safe to live in, it's only the working class that live there after all...

[Alf]

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

[Kizzy]

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

Then go start a thread for them maybe?

[Kizzy]

The corruption is slowly eeking out, the supplier of the cladding was on the board that ensured regulations?... no not surprised.

Done on the cheap , charge a load, everyone gets a bung.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-cladding-boss-senior-executive-government-adviser-tower-building-regulations-advisory-a7817936.html

I hope we keep marching till the corrupt twunts leave office!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40468881

[Mystic Mock]

The cladding is the problem and its been applied illegally across the whole country in loads of councils , labour tory and others. Yes you can say the cutbacks to the public services should be discussed but would that have made a difference here to a 26 storey building with combustible cladding and one staircase and no sprinklers either?

Clearly we all know now every tower must have 2 staircases , sprinklers and none of this cladding

But to play the blame game from one party to another is a dangerous one here. I think corbyn is right to argue for more police and more firemen/women. But he and others must understand 1) How to pay for it and 2) How to reduce the insane waste of public resources across every council in the country which could also save billions

Councils and politicians simply do not work well enough together, the system is a hell of a mess, communication breakdowns everywhere, roads dug up endlessly, departments not communicating to one another, its all just so mindless...if anyone is to blame its the system itself

I think that you've probably said what I've been thinking for the most part anyway.

[Alf]

Then go start a thread for them maybe?What's the point, when I can just post here?

It's not my problem that you don't like me criticising the national news. I'm quite happy to do it.

[Brillopad]

The corruption is slowly eeking out, the supplier of the cladding was on the board that ensured regulations?... no not surprised.

Done on the cheap , charge a load, everyone gets a bung.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-cladding-boss-senior-executive-government-adviser-tower-building-regulations-advisory-a7817936.html

I hope we keep marching till the corrupt twunts leave office!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40468881

Your motives are clearly political, so let's not pretend otherwise. It's painful to see.

[Kizzy]

If wanting justice is painful then yes I'm guilty.

[Kizzy]

What's the point, when I can just post here?

It's not my problem that you don't like me criticising the national news. I'm quite happy to do it.

I don't blame Corbyn for politicising the issue, some have a very short attention span, your boredom shows there is a small window to ensure enough sympathy for the victims to muster support for them in the fight to get justice.

[Brillopad]

Bored of this now, it was weeks ago.

There's still people who were hit by floods in Cumbria two years ago, that are still out of home, thankfully they're not still barking on about that everyday on the national news.

It was a terrible, terrible tradegy and every victim who survived and was an official resident in the tower should be rehoused locally in decent housing. I do however feel being given houses worth millions as a permanent home is perhaps a step too far.

Whilst Victims should also be financially compensated for loss of their belongings and the psychological suffering they have endured - being given a permanent residence of such value does feel like blood money - and I don't feel is an appropriate way to deal with such a tragedy.

As you say many other people have suffered such loses previously but this terrible incident is being used as a political tool to attack the government by many - including some of the victims and local residents in my opinion.

[Tom4784]

The government can and should be watched and criticised when necessary, honestly the whole attitude of 'we can't criticise the government!' is so goddamn worrying. The government should always be held accountable for their actions.

Grenfell was a major **** up and the government should be held responsible for it's inaction in preventing what was an easily preventable tragedy predicted by the residents months before it happened.

[Alf]

It was a terrible, terrible tradegy and every victim who survived and was an official resident in the tower should be rehoused locally in decent housing. I do however feel being given houses worth millions as a permanent home is perhaps a step too far.

Whilst Victims should also be financially compensated for loss of their belongings and the psychological suffering they have endured - being given a permanent residence of such value does feel like blood money - and I don't feel is an appropriate way to deal with such a tragedy.

As you say many other people have suffered such loses previously but this terrible incident is being used as a political tool to attack the government by many - including some of the victims and local residents in my opinion.My problem is just with the media, and the constant coverage they give the families to tell us how angry they are, when they wouldn't give the families of the kids blown to pieces the time of day, if they were/are angry. I wonder why that is?

There's an inquiry into this, let it take it's course.

[Kazanne]

My problem is just with the media, and the constant coverage they give the families to tell us how angry they are, when they wouldn't give the families of the kids blown to pieces the time of day, if they were/are angry. I wonder why that is?

There's an inquiry into this, let it take it's course.

Yeah the media are lapping it up and making things worse,we all know what's happened,a tragedy but do they really expect answers in a couple of weeks? it will take months if not longer,and people bashing on doors and shouting at everyone who is trying to sort it doesn't help either . It needs to take it's course ,then we might get truthful answers .

[Crimson Dynamo]

middle sized girl drove past it yesterday, sent a pic, looks haunting. The poor people who look out of that every day.

[arista]

[Amnesty for illegal Grenfell subletting

Anecdotal evidence suggests people were unlawfully subletting their properties in the tower and are reluctant to come forward.]


http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-illegal-subletting-amnesty-announced-by-sajid-javid-10934448

[Cherie]

[Amnesty for illegal Grenfell subletting

Anecdotal evidence suggests people were unlawfully subletting their properties in the tower and are reluctant to come forward.]


http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-illegal-subletting-amnesty-announced-by-sajid-javid-10934448

This needed to be done :clap1:

[arista]

The problem is some sub letters
will not come forward
So those Deaths could remain - unknowns

[Cherie]

The problem is some sub letters
will not come forward
So those Deaths could remain - unknowns

Yeah I would imagine it would affect the terms under which they bought the property, or their mortgage or insurance, it is being done, so they need this amnesty to get the true figures of how many died