Another racist asian paedophile ring.

[Beso]

Newcastle this time.

[Cherie]

This was debated yesterday, a few callers (all male Asian men) were incensed that the ring were being referred to as Muslim Asians, yet as another caller pointed out no one had a problem with outing Catholic priests so let's call them what they are because otherwise it's just trying to bury it

[arista]

Yes this was debated
LIVE on Ch5HD AM

a ASIAN FELLOW WAS CUT OFF THE Phone
as he kept saying what about jimmy savile?
but Matt said its Nothing to do with this topic.,,,,,

[Cherie]

Yes this was debated
LIVE on Ch5HD AM

a ASIAN FELLOW WAS CUT OFF THE Phone
as he kept saying what about jimmy savile?
but Matt said its Nothing to do with this topic.,,,,,

its not a competition as to what race has the most abusers :bored: it's a bit worrying that they are trying to deflect in this way

[Niamh.]

This was debated yesterday, a few callers (all male Asian men) were incensed that the ring were being referred to as Muslim Asians, yet as another caller pointed out no one had a problem with outing Catholic priests so let's call them what they are because otherwise it's just trying to bury it

I think the difference there is Catholic Priests were in a position of power especially over children and had alot of power within communities and even government (in Ireland anyway) So it would be more comparable if it were Muslim priests doing the abusing (or whatever the equivalent of a priest is)

I guess in this situation it would be like a group of white European paedophiles referred to as Christian paedophiles which never happens, lets be honest

[Kazanne]

Newcastle this time.

Yes,dirty bastards ,this was on the news yesterday and they said it's no good covering the culprits by being PC,it is mainly Pakistani Asian men,so no good beating about the bush,they see white girls as worthless so their sick perverted ideals are acted out upon them,Lets for once put our girls first NOT the scums human rights.

[Toy Soldier]

it's a bit worrying that they are trying to deflect in this way

And therein lies the problem with making sweeping statements about religion when discussing other issues. You get backlash, and the real issue gets lost.

But hey... you gotta fight for the right to... say stuff about Muslims etc. at any given opportunity. I guess. I mean that's the important thing isn't it? What was this story about again? :think:

[jaxie]

I think the difference there is Catholic Priests were in a position of power especially over children and had alot of power within communities and even government (in Ireland anyway) So it would be more comparable if it were Muslim priests doing the abusing (or whatever the equivalent of a priest is)

I guess in this situation it would be like a group of white European paedophiles referred to as Christian paedophiles which never happens, lets be honest

I can't help feel to an extent it does stem from religion in the sense that women are not equals in the Muslim faith which then bleeds into culture family life. How do you expect people to respect women if their whole belief system is telling them that women are less than men.

[Niamh.]

I can't help feel to an extent it does stem from religion in the sense that women are not equals in the muslim faith which then bleeds into culture family life. How do you expect people to respect women if their whole belief system is telling them that women are less than men.

But what has that to do with paedohiles though?

[jaxie]

But what has that to do with paedohiles though?

Isn't it a case of abusing vulnerable teenage girls? In Islam quite young girls are still married, even girls who live in this country, so while we might view it as paedophile again the thing is a bit skewed by a belief system that is very different in regard to what is acceptable.

[Toy Soldier]

I can't help feel to an extent it does stem from religion in the sense that women are not equals which then bleeds into culture family life. How do you expect people to respect women if their whole belief system is telling them that women are less than men.

Perhaps some truth in that, but as is frequently pointed out, the gender inequality issues are largely cultural rather than religious, and more relevant to country of origin than religious leanings. Therefore, saying "an Asian gang" is sufficient, and there is no need to emphasise (possibly even assume?) "Muslim Asian". It feels, to me, like kicking the hornet's nest purely for the sake of it, or "point scoring". As always, counter-productive and distracting from the issue at hand and for... what? The "right" to make some sort of petty point.

"Aha those Muslims again!", absolutely no different to the "white people cant be racist" rhetoric. It's "outrage and incredulity" and the expense of real progress.

[bots]

But what has that to do with paedohiles though?

there does seem to be a cultural side to it for whatever reason. Its too simplistic to say that its just a few bad apples. It's like institutional racism, its not necessarily the majority involved for it to become a problem

[Toy Soldier]

Also, on the same vein (of avoiding sensationalism to properly address the actual issue);

A rapist gang that targets teenage girls is not the same thing as a paedophile ring. The abuse and molestation of underage post-adolescent girls is monstrous, but it is not paedophilia, which is specifically the sexual attraction to pre-adolescent children.

That's not a lessening / justification / anything else for anyone who would commit either horrific act... it's simply an accurate definition and an important distinction.

[Toy Soldier]

there does seem to be a cultural side to it for whatever reason. Its too simplistic to say that its just a few bad apples. It's like institutional racism, its not necessarily the majority involved for it to become a problem

But to reiterate; to address the cultural component, saying "an Asian gang" is sufficient. Adding "Muslim" makes it a jibe / poke / point-scoring thing. It turns it into an anti-Muslim rant and completely distracts from the crime. It's not level-headed or helpful or appropriate.

[jaxie]

Perhaps some truth in that, but as is frequently pointed out, the gender inequality issues are largely cultural rather than religious, and more relevant to country of origin than religious leanings. Therefore, saying "an Asian gang" is sufficient, and there is no need to emphasise (possibly even assume?) "Muslim Asian". It feels, to me, like kicking the hornet's nest purely for the sake of it, or "point scoring". As always, counter-productive and distracting from the issue at hand and for... what? The "right" to make some sort of petty point.

"Aha those Muslims again!", absolutely no different to the "white people cant be racist" rhetoric. It's "outrage and incredulity" and the expense of real progress.

Most of the culture is dictated by the religion. :shrug: I don't see where colour comes into it, again you are confusing religion with race which you always do in any discussion where this particular faith is mentioned. Of course non muslims can be abusive. However we are talking about this case and there have been a number of these large rings now involving Asian men. It is not racist to say that some of the problem may be about unhealthy attitudes to women based on belief.

[arista]

its not a competition as to what race has the most abusers :bored: it's a bit worrying that they are trying to deflect in this way

Please Cherie understand
on that LIVE Ch5AM debate
they found out the judges were scared
of calling it Racist RAPE


Years back ,like "NEW" LABOUR
wanted it hidden,
they were in Power

[Vicky.]

Dirty bastards. So close to me too :bored:

[Toy Soldier]

Most of the culture is dictated by the religion. :shrug: I don't see where colour comes into it, again you are confusing religion with race which you always do in any discussion where this particular faith is mentioned. Of course non muslims can be abusive. However we are talking about this case and there have been a number of these large rings now involving Asian men. It is not racist to say that some of the problem may be about unhealthy attitudes to women based on belief.I mentioned neither colour nor race? It is you who is assuming that all middle eastern men are practicing Muslims, by insisting on terming a middle eastern gang "a Muslim gang".

Regardless; my point stands. No matter how much truth ther is in it, if focussing on "Muslim!" is actually counterproductive to finding a solution, then why do it? Does the right to be fruitlessly outraged come before the need for level-headed solutions?

[Beso]

And therein lies the problem with making sweeping statements about religion when discussing other issues. You get backlash, and the real issue gets lost.

But hey... you gotta fight for the right to... say stuff about Muslims etc. at any given opportunity. I guess. I mean that's the important thing isn't it? What was this story about again? :think:

Grown asian men targetting vulnerable young white british girls......usually taxi drivers.

[Cherie]

I think the difference there is Catholic Priests were in a position of power especially over children and had alot of power within communities and even government (in Ireland anyway) So it would be more comparable if it were Muslim priests doing the abusing (or whatever the equivalent of a priest is)

I guess in this situation it would be like a group of white European paedophiles referred to as Christian paedophiles which never happens, lets be honest

But Asian covers such a vast number of races, it is a problem among Asians who are muslim so why can we not say that?

[Cherie]

I mentioned neither colour nor race? It is you who is assuming that all middle eastern men are practicing Muslims, by insisting on terming a middle eastern gang "a Muslim gang".

Regardless; my point stands. No matter how much truth ther is in it, if focussing on "Muslim!" is actually counterproductive to finding a solution, then why do it? Does the right to be fruitlessly outraged come before the need for level-headed solutions?



Its the muslim men who are outraged? at least that is what came across on the debate,

one also tried to deflect by saying all the girls were vulnerable and should be looked after better...:facepalm:

[Northern Monkey]

There have been loads of these gangs and loads of court cases around the country and it does seem to be a problem specific to Muslims.Don't forget many get married at a very young age and also there's the power over women thing.Yes there are sick bastards of all race but this is a particular cultural problem of it's own.The fact they do it as gangs and have group consensus on such a sick thing says alot rather than just some lone pervert in his basement.

[Northern Monkey]

But Asian covers such a vast number of races, it is a problem among Asians who are muslim so why can we not say that?

It is indeed.It's a problem within the Muslim community.Sikhs and Hindus aren't going round doing this.It's a Muslim problem.People don't see the scale of it because mainstream media doesn't seem to cover all these cases.

[Marsh.]

And therein lies the problem with making sweeping statements about religion when discussing other issues. You get backlash, and the real issue gets lost.

But hey... you gotta fight for the right to... say stuff about Muslims etc. at any given opportunity. I guess. I mean that's the important thing isn't it? What was this story about again? :think:

Perhaps some truth in that, but as is frequently pointed out, the gender inequality issues are largely cultural rather than religious, and more relevant to country of origin than religious leanings. Therefore, saying "an Asian gang" is sufficient, and there is no need to emphasise (possibly even assume?) "Muslim Asian". It feels, to me, like kicking the hornet's nest purely for the sake of it, or "point scoring". As always, counter-productive and distracting from the issue at hand and for... what? The "right" to make some sort of petty point.

"Aha those Muslims again!", absolutely no different to the "white people cant be racist" rhetoric. It's "outrage and incredulity" and the expense of real progress.

I mentioned neither colour nor race? It is you who is assuming that all middle eastern men are practicing Muslims, by insisting on terming a middle eastern gang "a Muslim gang".

Regardless; my point stands. No matter how much truth ther is in it, if focussing on "Muslim!" is actually counterproductive to finding a solution, then why do it? Does the right to be fruitlessly outraged come before the need for level-headed solutions?

This and this and this all day long.

The constant need to highlight the word Muslim is pointless at best.

[Cherie]

This and this and this all day long.

The constant need to highlight the word Muslim is pointless at best.


it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

[Marsh.]

it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

All questions we don't have answers to.

As Niamh said, it would be like assuming all Western white people were Christian.

[Cherie]

All questions we don't have answers to.

As Niamh said, it would be like assuming all Western white people were Christian.

it is a problem within the muslim community, when it was a problem in the Catholic community they were called catholic priests, they weren't called priests because there can be priests in any number of religions and Catholics didn't try to excuse them, like the excuses we are hearing from this community.

[Tom4784]

Hopefully justice will be served and the victims can begin their road to recovery. It's vile how common stories like this are becoming.

I think the difference there is Catholic Priests were in a position of power especially over children and had alot of power within communities and even government (in Ireland anyway) So it would be more comparable if it were Muslim priests doing the abusing (or whatever the equivalent of a priest is)

I guess in this situation it would be like a group of white European paedophiles referred to as Christian paedophiles which never happens, lets be honest

Tbh.

The mention of them being muslim serves no point but to incite hate towards muslims as a whole.

[Marsh.]

it is a problem within the muslim community, when it was a problem in the Catholic community they were called catholic priests, they weren't called priests because there can be priests in any number of religions and Catholics didn't try to excuse them, like the excuses we are hearing from this community.

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

[Niamh.]

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

Yes exactly what i was trying to say.

[Cherie]

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

Yes exactly what i was trying to say.

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

[Niamh.]

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

[Cherie]

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

Niamh I listened to a debate on 5 live yesterday morning, one guy actually said it was the girls fault for not being looked after properly and the rest were more concerned that the word muslim was being used than what happened to the girls, I'm not dreaming this up, maybe there is a podcast you can listen to, its an eye opener.

[Niamh.]

Niamh I listened to a debate on 5 live yesterday morning, one guy actually said it was the girls fault for not being looked after properly and the rest were more concerned that the word muslim was being used than what happened to the girls, I'm not dreaming this up, maybe there is a podcast you can listen to, its an eye opener.

I thought you meant people in this thread. That sounds terrible though and neither of those opinions are helpful imo

[Toy Soldier]

But Asian covers such a vast number of races, it is a problem among Asians who are muslim so why can we not say that?Say Middle-Eastern then to avoid confusion. There is little if any direct evidence that they are Muslim, let alone practicing Muslim, other than their country of cultural origin.

Might they all be. Muslim? Sure. And I also didn't say you "can't" say it, I said it's not helpful, it's counterproductive, it (quite evidently) deviates the discussion away from the actual incident into "yet more Islam stuff". So the question isn't really "why can people not say that?", it's "why are people so desperate to say it" even when it's distracting and damaging to do so.

Like I said, it feels like outrage and indignation are somehow thought to be more moral or valuable than pragmatic solution-seeking.

"I don't care if it isn't helpful I am rly mad about this Muslims issue and I want the world to know just how mad!"

Why?

[Toy Soldier]

There have been loads of these gangs and loads of court cases around the country and it does seem to be a problem specific to Muslims.Don't forget many get married at a very young age and also there's the power over women thing.Yes there are sick bastards of all race but this is a particular cultural problem of it's own.The fact they do it as gangs and have group consensus on such a sick thing says alot rather than just some lone pervert in his basement.Even if this is true, does pointing it out do ANYTHING that helps or improves the situation.

That is what people need to start considering. Are they saying things because they are true and it's helpful to go there... or because they have truth in them and it makes them angry. Even if saying it actually makes the situation worse and leads to more victims, not fewer.

To repeat, again, why is everyone (of various opinions) so adamant in insisting that the right to anger / outrage / incredulity is of paramount importance, rather than actually having any interest in real solutions?

[Toy Soldier]

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Yes Cherie... You might say... It's almost as if clumsy use of poorly selected (yet deliberate and agenda driven) language has distracted from the real topic.

No?

I'm utterly confused as to how you can be saying that I'm wrong in one post, and then providing examples of exactly that happening two posts later.

[Beso]

it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

Cause they dont have much to do with their wives.

[Beso]

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

Not just priests, nuns, cardinals..probably one or 2 popes...the whole catholic church is riddled with them...ask anyone brought up through the care system in east london.

[Niamh.]

Not just priests, nuns, cardinals..probably one or 2 popes...the whole catholic church is riddled with them...ask anyone brought up through the care system in east london.

Oh sure I know Parmnion, there's been so much disgusting stuff un earthed here over the last few years to do with, work houses, mother and baby homes etc all run by the church. No religious organisations should have that much control and power over the poorest and most vulnerable in society imo

[Marsh.]

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Nobody's made excuses for anyone. They're, quite rightly, annoyed with the actual issues being swept under the rug by throwing this latest event into a very large box labelled "Evil Muslims". I think THAT is undermining the real issues.

[jaxie]

I mentioned neither colour nor race? It is you who is assuming that all middle eastern men are practicing Muslims, by insisting on terming a middle eastern gang "a Muslim gang".

Regardless; my point stands. No matter how much truth ther is in it, if focussing on "Muslim!" is actually counterproductive to finding a solution, then why do it? Does the right to be fruitlessly outraged come before the need for level-headed solutions?

You did indeed reference race when you mentioned 'white people'. Inferring the issue lies with colour. I don't know why you are calling them middle eastern men, I would imagine they are all British citizens or press coverage would mention they were foreign nationals.

I didn't say on any of my posts that they were all Muslims though I don't know of many Asian men personally who arent. I said the Muslim faith has worrying attitudes towards women and could be part of the problem. You are reading what you want to in that. If you shirk the problems rather than addressing them they continue. If at some point communities or authorities admit there might be a problem perhaps they can begin to address it through education, keep sweeping it under the carpet and you are basically kicking the victims in the teeth.

[Kazanne]

I can't help feel to an extent it does stem from religion in the sense that women are not equals in the Muslim faith which then bleeds into culture family life. How do you expect people to respect women if their whole belief system is telling them that women are less than men.

The 'girls' they target are white Western girls who they deem as worthless,so that tells me it's not to do with religion but race.

[reece(:]

It's scary that stuff like this is going on in my city :(

[StephenPullen]

Not Asian, I would rather say Muslim community. You don't have these kinds of sexual abuse problems in the vast majority of other Asian cultures.

[Marsh.]

Not Asian, I would rather say Muslim community. You don't have these kinds of sexual abuse problems in the vast majority of other Asian cultures.

How do you know?

[Toy Soldier]

You did indeed reference race when you mentioned 'white people'. Inferring the issue lies with colour. I don't know why you are calling them middle eastern men, I would imagine they are all British citizens or press coverage would mention they were foreign nationals.

I mentioned the "white people can't be racist" thing as another example of rhetoric that promotes backlash; not in any way related to making THIS case about race.

If it helps, I could have used the un-race-related example of the vegan cafe "man tax" thread? i.e. it isn't untrue that there are some inequalities between genders, but addressing it in certain ways promotes unhelpful backlash. That is the entirety of what I'm talking about.

[StephenPullen]

This type of thing doesn't happen in the Hindu community, nor the Sikh. There are no organized Buddhist sex gangs either. Only one common denominator.

[Kazanne]

They said on the news it is mainly Pakistani Asian men.

[Toy Soldier]

This type of thing doesn't happen in the Hindu community, nor the Sikh. There are no organized Buddhist sex gangs either. Only one common denominator.And in what way does focussing on this actually help?

Anyone?

No one has managed to answer this yet.

[Cherie]

Nobody's made excuses for anyone. They're, quite rightly, annoyed with the actual issues being swept under the rug by throwing this latest event into a very large box labelled "Evil Muslims". I think THAT is undermining the real issues.

Read and digest, on the debate I listened to one of the callers claimed that the girls should have more carefully monitored, not a word that members of his community should be ashamed of abusing vulnerable girls in this way, so yes excuses are being made

[Beso]

Oh sure I know Parmnion, there's been so much disgusting stuff un earthed here over the last few years to do with, work houses, mother and baby homes etc all run by the church. No religious organisations should have that much control and power over the poorest and most vulnerable in society imo

Its sad to think but it makes you wonder if being a pedo was part of the job description...mind i bet they were all abused as kids as well..never an excuse though.:nono:

[Beso]

The 'girls' they target are white Western girls who they deem as worthless,so that tells me it's not to do with religion but race.


I think some muslims twist their religious scriptures into something to do with race.....


So for me, the muslim religion is being used by racists to pardon their racist values.

Ie, the infedels etc etc depressing depressing......etc etc.

[Beso]

Not Asian, I would rather say Muslim community. You don't have these kinds of sexual abuse problems in the vast majority of other Asian cultures.

There was the indian bus raping gangs.

[Marsh.]

Read and digest, on the debate I listened to one of the callers claimed that the girls should have more carefully monitored, not a word that members of his community should be ashamed of abusing vulnerable girls in this way, so yes excuses are being made

I have read, thank you. :umm2:

Try actually making your point known. Making a random comment in the middle of a forum discussion and I'm supposed to know about this debate you listened to?

[Beso]

I mentioned the "white people can't be racist" thing as another example of rhetoric that promotes backlash; not in any way related to making THIS case about race.

If it helps, I could have used the un-race-related example of the vegan cafe "man tax" thread? i.e. it isn't untrue that there are some inequalities between genders, but addressing it in certain ways promotes unhelpful backlash. That is the entirety of what I'm talking about.

How do you mean unhelpfull backlash though?

Do you mean it could cause random white on asian racist attacks or more muslims thinking what the hell, we are all being tarred with the same brush so lets start raping 10-16 yr old drunk white girls?

[Beso]

They said on the news it is mainly Pakistani Asian men.

Only difference being the rest are from afgahnistan origin...rather than of pakistani origin.

[Beso]

I would say however that the vast majority of these abhorrent, violent and simply sick individuals would be doing it in the name of allah...hence the brandings of the M many girls endured....

[Toy Soldier]

How do you mean unhelpfull backlash though?

Do you mean it could cause random white on asian racist attacks or more muslims thinking what the hell, we are all being tarred with the same brush so lets start raping 10-16 yr old drunk white girls?By unhelpful I mean that to combat these abhorrent individuals we MUST engage with and integrate with the communities that surround them and - whether you like the sound of it or not - that means diplomacy and holding back on some of that righteous indignation.

Just as feminists attacking or ridiculing males is harmful to equality for females, and black people being spiteful towards white people is harmful to black communities, because rightly or wrongly, people will react badly to perceived injustice.

So again... It really all comes down to whether you'd rather be a part of the solution, or feel better "having a rant" but being ultimately a contributor to the problem.

[Cherie]

This was debated yesterday, a few callers (all male Asian men) were incensed that the ring were being referred to as Muslim Asians, yet as another caller pointed out no one had a problem with outing Catholic priests so let's call them what they are because otherwise it's just trying to bury it

I have read, thank you. :umm2:

Try actually making your point known. Making a random comment in the middle of a forum discussion and I'm supposed to know about this debate you listened to?

2nd post on the thread, but don't let that stop you making ridiculous comments

[Marsh.]

2nd post on the thread, but don't let that stop you making ridiculous comments

"This was debated"

"A few callers"

Yep, sounds like something relevant to this thread. :thumbs:

[Cherie]

[/B]


Its the muslim men who are outraged? at least that is what came across on the debate,

one also tried to deflect by saying all the girls were vulnerable and should be looked after better...:facepalm:

"This was debated"

"A few callers"

Yep, sounds like something relevant to this thread. :thumbs:


My posts were related to the debate like I said read and digest :thumbs:

[Marsh.]

My posts were related to the debate like I said read and digest :thumbs:

Not really. You responded to discussion on the use of "Muslim" to describe these men and the comparison to the Catholic priests with "Excuses being made" as though it was part of this discussion.

When questioned, it turned out to be from some debate you listened to where callers made some excuses. Not exactly immediately obvious or immediately relevant to the comments we were making here which were not excusing anything.

Am I supposed to know every time you reply to me that you could actually be referring to something you've watched or read without you indicating it. :thumbs:

[Cherie]

Not really. You responded to discussion on the use of "Muslim" to describe these men and the comparison to the Catholic priests with "Excuses being made" as though it was part of this discussion.

When questioned, it turned out to be from some debate you listened to where callers made some excuses. Not exactly immediately obvious or immediately relevant to the comments we were making here which were not excusing anything.

Am I supposed to know every time you reply to me that you could actually be referring to something you've watched or read without you indicating it. :thumbs:

My posts are there to be seen, you jumped in without reading the thread, it's obvious :hehe:

[Marsh.]

My posts are there to be seen, you jumped in without reading the thread, it's obvious :hehe:

No, you're responding to the opinions of people in this thread with comments on opinions of people from some show, without actually stating so. That's stupidity.

[Cherie]

No, you're responding to the opinions of people in this thread with comments on opinions of people from some show, without actually stating so. That's stupidity.

I did state it twice, if you invest in the thread at least read the previous comments, it's not exactly a 21 pager, shame you jumped in unprepared, now that's stupidity :thumbs:

[Marsh.]

I did state it twice, if you invest in the thread at least read the previous comments, it's not exactly a 21 pager, shame you jumped in unprepared, now that's stupidity :thumbs:

Yes, unprepared to have someone respond to MY opinion with "Excuses are being made...." but wait, 5 posts later that was aimed at some "callers" opinion. :rolleyes:

[Cherie]

Yes, unprepared to have someone respond to MY opinion with "Excuses are being made...." but wait, 5 posts later that was aimed at some "callers" opinion. :rolleyes:

Nope my points were always based on the debate I listened to yesterday, you just didn't pick up on it in your rush to be right

[Marsh.]

Nope my points were always based on the debate I listened to yesterday, you just didn't pick up on it in your rush to be right

No, you responded to my post. Usually that indicates a response to said post.

But, wait, is THIS post about that debate you listen to too?

You never actually say so, so it's hard to tell.

[Beso]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;9545126]By unhelpful I mean that to combat these abhorrent individuals we MUST engage with and integrate with the communities that surround them and - whether you like the sound of it or not - that means diplomacy and holding back on some of that righteous indignation.

Just as feminists attacking or ridiculing males is harmful to equality for females, and black people being spiteful towards white people is harmful to black communities, because rightly or wrongly, people will react badly to perceived injustice.

So again... It really all comes down to whether you'd rather be a part of the solution, or feel better "having a rant" but being ultimately a contributor to
?

Which communities do you wish us to inegrate and engage with?

[Cherie]

No, you responded to my post. Usually that indicates a response to said post.

But, wait, is THIS post about that debate you listen to too?

You never actually say so, so it's hard to tell.

I didn't realise I had to spell everything out, I expect posters to read the thread especially when it's a short one, I won't make that mistake again :)

[Toy Soldier]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;9545126]By unhelpful I mean that to combat these abhorrent individuals we MUST engage with and integrate with the communities that surround them and - whether you like the sound of it or not - that means diplomacy and holding back on some of that righteous indignation.

Just as feminists attacking or ridiculing males is harmful to equality for females, and black people being spiteful towards white people is harmful to black communities, because rightly or wrongly, people will react badly to perceived injustice.

So again... It really all comes down to whether you'd rather be a part of the solution, or feel better "having a rant" but being ultimately a contributor to
?

Which communities do you wish us to inegrate and engage with?

Muslim or asian?The communities of the mainly Pakistani gang of men who committed these crimes?

[Marsh.]

I didn't realise I had to spell everything out, I expect posters to read the thread especially when it's a short one, I won't make that mistake again :)

Yes, when you respond to my opinion with "Excuses are being made" it's my fault for needing to be spoon fed the fact you aren't talking about my opinion. :facepalm:

Nothing to do with reading a thread which I DID read. But whatever.

[Cherie]

Yes, when you respond to my opinion with "Excuses are being made" it's my fault for needing to be spoon fed. :facepalm:

Nothing to do with reading a thread which I DID read. But whatever.

Lies

[Beso]

Why? Why should we have to go round cap in hand to their communities.

What will that achieve?

Round my way people go bashing down the doors of local paedophiles!

Surely them being taxi drivers and that, an outraged and indignified local community someone would do something...but no....why?

[Toy Soldier]

Why?

What will that achieve?

Round my way people go bashing down the doors of local paedophiles!

Surely them being taxi drivers and that, an outraged and indignified local community someone would do something...but no....why?Because not everyone is thick enough nor chavvy enough to try to engage in vigilantism? :shrug:

[Marsh.]

Lies

Hmm. I've seen this post somewhere else today.

[Marsh.]

Why? Why should we have to go round cap in hand to their communities.

What will that achieve?

Well, if you don't try to fundamentally change the root of problems then the problem just continues to perpetuate itself?

Would you rather break down the doors of pedophiles forever more?

Or actually find a solution that can really reduce the potential for abuse of children to occur in the future?

Which is more valuable?

[Cherie]

Hmm. I've seen this post somewhere else today.

No you haven't and if you think that was lies you really are dumb

[Marsh.]

No you haven't and if you think that was lies you really are dumb

Chuff posted it earlier in another thread.

If I think what was lies? You're the one using the word.

[Beso]

Because not everyone is thick enough nor chavvy enough to try to engage in vigilantism? :shrug:

What if it was a close relative like a daughter or little sister it had happened to..or what if say a brother had committed the crime.....would it be understandable that someone had had a lapsed moment by resorting to looking thick and chavvy...or should they not be so silly to let their raw emotions get the better of them...?

What do you think ts....should we still go into a community and integrate within that community that hide and protect these perpetratuers.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/11/22/431D1D0D00000578-4783378-image-a-38_1502487224866.jpg

[Brillopad]

it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

Spot on Cherie. It is an attitudinal and cultural problem being tolerated and excused in a country generally appalled by such behaviour all in the name of the usual nausiating and cowardly PC.

[Cherie]

Spot on Cherie. It is an attitudinal and cultural problem being tolerated and excused in a country generally appalled by such behaviour all in the name of the usual nausiating and cowardly PC.

This is the point isn't is who made excuses for Rolf, Max et al, no one, who tried to engage them or rehabilitate them and they will be rightly shunned by society Some of those involved in the Rotherham scandal have been released and have disappeared back into their community, meanwhile the community nurse who acted as whisleblower was sacked, what a wonderful world we live in

[Toy Soldier]

This is the point isn't is who made excuses for Rolf, Max et al, no one, who tried to engage them or rehabilitate them and they will be rightly shunned by society Some of those involved in the Rotherham scandal have been released and have disappeared back into their community, meanwhile the community nurse who acted as whisleblower was sacked, what a wonderful world we live inWho is making excuses for the criminals or talking about engaging with or rehabilitating the people who actually committed these crimes? The point is to engage with and not alienate immigrant communities so that pockets of subculture that feel above the law don't develop in the first place. I can see that some people find the entire concept very difficult to understand, so I guess therein lies the problem.

[Cherie]

Who is making excuses for the criminals or talking about engaging with or rehabilitating the people who actually committed these crimes? The point is to engage with and not alienate immigrant communities so that pockets of subculture that feel above the law don't develop in the first place. I can see that some people find the entire concept very difficult to understand, so I guess therein lies the problem.

These are all British born men, I'm pretty sure they understand Western culture well enough, do they not know right from wrong? are they driven to do this because they are alienated, they do it because they are enabled and therein lies the problem.

[Toy Soldier]

What if it was a close relative like a daughter or little sister it had happened to..or what if say a brother had committed the crime.....would it be understandable that someone had had a lapsed moment by resorting to looking thick and chavvy...or should they not be so silly to let their raw emotions get the better of them...?


Thats not what you asked the first time; you stated that "round 'ere the public goes and kicks in the doors of local paedophiles!!".

I have full sympathy for victims of crime, or anyone directly related to the victims of crime, seeking retribution. That's a million miles away from a gang of random local Tommy Robinson wannabes swarming a house "Coz he's a filfy nonce it sez so in The Sun!".

[Brillopad]

Who is making excuses for the criminals or talking about engaging with or rehabilitating the people who actually committed these crimes? The point is to engage with and not alienate immigrant communities so that pockets of subculture that feel above the law don't develop in the first place. I can see that some people find the entire concept very difficult to understand, so I guess therein lies the problem.

Disagreeing with your points/views does not equate to 'very difficult to understand'. Rather arrogant point of view in my view.

To engage is and should be a two-way process and many are simply fed up with with the onus of responsibility being dumped on those on one side of the equation all the time.

[Toy Soldier]

These are all British born men, I'm pretty sure they understand Western culture well enough, do they not know right from wrong? are they driven to do this because they are alienated, they do it because they are enabled and therein lies the problem.I didn't say they are doing it because they are alienated ffs! I'm saying the communities are alienated and that alienation shifts them out of sync with wider society, and that disconnect allows groups of disturbed and abhorrent individuals to feel that they can do whatever they want.

[Cherie]

I didn't say they are doing it because they are alienated ffs! I'm saying the communities are alienated and that alienation shifts them out of sync with wider society, and that disconnect allows groups of disturbed and abhorrent individuals to feel that they can do whatever they want.

Its takes two to integrate, I work with a lot of Asian women and they all click together, yes they are polite and will chat in the staff room but when it comes to out of work activities they are generally not that inclusive. My sons went to predominantly Asian schools, the kids never came to our home even though they were invited and, my sons were never invited back , they don't want to integrate as they don't want inter racial marriages, I think you live in some kind of bubble up there in the Highlands in all honesty,

[Toy Soldier]

Its takes two to integrate, I work with a lot of Asian women and they all click together, yes they are polite and will chat in the staff room but when it comes to out of work activities they are generally not that inclusive. My sons went to predominantly Asian schools, the kids never came to our home even though they were invited and, my sons were never invited back , they don't want to integrate as they don't want inter racial marriages, I think you live in some kind of bubble up there in the Highlands in all honesty,Oh well then Cherie I guess you're right, it's hopeless and we shouldn't even try, blergh, yuck, dirty paedo Muslims etc.

Is this how it works? Am I doing it right? Is this helping?

[Cherie]

Oh well then Cherie I guess you're right, it's hopeless and we shouldn't even try, blergh, yuck, dirty paedo Muslims etc.

Is this how it works? Am I doing it right? Is this helping?

don't be ridiculous, as usual you are trying to ridicule me, but I'm living in a multicultural, predominately Asian area and you are not so why can't you respect my perspective? lovely people mostly but they keep you at arms length, and do not want to mix, simples.

[Brillopad]

Its takes two to integrate, I work with a lot of Asian women and they all click together, yes they are polite and will chat in the staff room but when it comes to out of work activities they are generally not that inclusive. My sons went to predominantly Asian schools, the kids never came to our home even though they were invited and, my sons were never invited back , they don't want to integrate as they don't want inter racial marriages, I think you live in some kind of bubble up there in the Highlands in all honesty,

I agree and think those who say we should try are living in a bubble. The country as a whole has tried but there comes a time for personal and community responsibility from those on both sides.

If communities want to integrate they will. There is strength in numbers so I see no reason why communities that want to integrate can't. They have each other and a lot of support from both our laws and those on the left.

It is all nonsense and to keep trying to blame everyone other than those that don't want to integrate is simply diversion tactics.

[Toy Soldier]

don't be ridiculous, as usual you are trying to ridicule me, but I'm living in a multicultural, predominately Asian area and you are not so why can't you respect my perspective? lovely people mostly but they keep you at arms length, and do not want to mix, simples.And a huge part of the reason they don't want to mix is because there are certain perceptions of them, they feel under suspicion, and excluded going back generations. You're actually supporting my point rather than countering it; that even the "nice, polite, friendly" members of these communities are segregated, whether that's by themselves or not, and this is the problem that needs to be addressed.

I didn't say that they're begging to integrate or that the division is all one-sided, the reasons are totally irrelevant, it's still a problem and addressing that problem is the best (and ONLY) way to fix many of the criminal issues.

Reserving the right to "get angry and mouth off about Muslims" is counter-productive, compounds the problem, and eventually, leads to more victims.

So like I said, I guess it depends on whether you want to try to be part of the solution, or are willing to "wallow in outrage" as part of the problem :shrug:.

Also as a final note; no I don't currently live in a particularly multicultural area but I have only been living in the village I'm in now for 3 years. I've moved around a lot, mostly central belt Scotland and have also lived in the north of England near Manchester. I've also never lived anywhere near "the highlands". Do you imagine that central belt Scotland has no racial diversity? :think:. My aunt lived on a street in central Glasgow where she was legitimately the only white woman.

[Cherie]

And a huge part of the reason they don't want to mix is because there are certain perceptions of them, they feel under suspicion, and excluded going back generations. You're actually supporting my point rather than countering it; that even the "nice, polite, friendly" members of these communities are segregated, whether that's by themselves or not, and this is the problem that needs to be addressed.

I didn't say that they're begging to integrate or that the division is all one-sided, the reasons are totally irrelevant, it's still a problem and addressing that problem is the best (and ONLY) way to fix many of the criminal issues.

Reserving the right to "get angry and mouth off about Muslims" is counter-productive, compounds the problem, and eventually, leads to more victims.

So like I said, I guess it depends on whether you want to try to be part of the solution, or are willing to "wallow in outrage" as part of the problem :shrug:.

Also as a final note; no I don't currently live in a particularly multicultural area but I have only been living in the village I'm in now for 3 years. I've moved around a lot, mostly central belt Scotland and have also lived in the north of England near Manchester. I've also never lived anywhere near "the highlands". Do you imagine that central belt Scotland has no racial diversity? :think:. My aunt lived on a street in central Glasgow where she was legitimately the only white woman.


No you really aren't getting it, again you are ridiculing me I am far from wallowing in outrage I am simply pointing out some actual facts and realities about living in a multicultural society, ask you Aunt did she ever get invited to an Asian wedding/mehndi, because i haven't, they are segregated by their culture, what is the solution? I invited an Indian friend round recently and her husband was on the phone 5 minutes after she got in the door telling her to go home to the kids, obviously his mother who lives with them was on the phone to him as he was at work, that is what we are up against, I could go on with lots of examples like people speaking in their own language in the staff room at work even though they are all English born but you don't want to hear it, and of course I know don't live in the Highlands, talk about taking stuff I say so literally again in a clear attempt to ridicule, you talk about SD not being the same your constant ridiculing of people whose opinions you feel are beneath you are more of a problem than anything else that gets posted on here.

[Cherie]

I'd also love to hear what you personally are doing to foster integration?

[Toy Soldier]

I'd also love to hear what you personally are doing to foster integration?The absolute bare minimum that everyone should be doing; refusing to engage in prejudice and the "subtle" blame-language used by hateful individuals, and calling it out when I see it.

I'm not saying that everyone should be out organising mixers to promote integration, I'm just saying at the very least, don't promote division? "But they're doing it too" isn't really a good enough reason?

As for the longer post above - no one is ridiculing you, Cherie, I don't particularly like being accused of it, so if you can't debate without taking criticism as a personal slight, or sureness of opinion as "a superiority complex", then I have no real interest in debating further with you.

I'm sure we can still chat in other sections :shrug:.

[Cherie]

you are ridiculing me with posts like this

Oh well then Cherie I guess you're right, it's hopeless and we shouldn't even try, blergh, yuck, dirty paedo Muslims etc.

and making out I have some anti muslim agenda where nothing could be further from the truth, I don't care who lives next to me as long as they are a decent neighbour, but at the same time I won't shy away from confronting things that happen within a culture for fear of being seen as racist, and i wont pretend things aren't happening that I see right before my eyes to preserve the status quo, I don't give two figs whether you debate with me or not but stop trying to paint me as something I am not just to justify your position.

[Alf]

Cherie, you should try taking negative about Christians and Jesus Christ, they'll all be on your side then.

Or talk negatively about the Royal Family and the Royalists, and they'll all be your best friend and join in with you.

But Islam is a no go. It's top of the league in the prejudice hierarchy (at the moment). It trumps every other.

Trump and his supporters are fair game for a bashing, try that one.

[Brillopad]

Cherie, you should try taking negative about Christians and Jesus Christ, they'll all be on your side then.

Or talk negatively about the Royal Family and the Royalists, and they'll all be your best friend and join in with you.

But Islam is a no go. It's top of the league in the prejudice hierarchy (at the moment). It trumps every other.

Trump and his supporters are fair game for a bashing, try that one.

'Prejudice hierarchy' is correct - indeed the latest PC fad. To treat one religion as above criticism is madness and should never be condoned. I for one will never bow down to such PC nonsence. If something is worthy of criticism then it must be challenged.

[Toy Soldier]

Cherie, you should try taking negative about Christians and Jesus Christ, they'll all be on your side then.

Or talk negatively about the Royal Family and the Royalists, and they'll all be your best friend and join in with you.

But Islam is a no go. It's top of the league in the prejudice hierarchy (at the moment). It trumps every other.

Trump and his supporters are fair game for a bashing, try that one.Is better Christian integration needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of the Royal family needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of Trump supporters needed for anything at all?

This is not about "defending Muslims" it's about seeking a solution to a problem. Do I have any particular desire to defend Islam? No, I think it's as bonkers as any other organised religion, and I'd rather live in a world where all people would give all of them up and exist without the fantasies.

But we don't live in that world, there are problems, there are subcultures, there are violent gangs that develop in those subcultures, and doggedly demanding the right to "SAY ANGRY STUFF ABOUT THAT!" despite the fact that it increases and feeds into segregation and therefore makes things WORSE not BETTER, is petty, and selfish, childish and stupid. What does it do? What possible use is it to anyone? It's just saying "well I think that thing is bad and I want to whinge about it and I don't care what the consequences are because it's my right to flap my gums".

[Brillopad]

Is better Christian integration needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of the Royal family needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of Trump supporters needed for anything at all?

This is not about "defending Muslims" it's about seeking a solution to a problem. Do I have any particular desire to defend Islam? No, I think it's as bonkers as any other organised religion, and I'd rather live in a world where all people would give all of them up and exist without the fantasies.

But we don't live in that world, there are problems, there are subcultures, there are violent gangs that develop in those subcultures, and doggedly demanding the right to "SAY ANGRY STUFF ABOUT THAT!" despite the fact that it increases and feeds into segregation and therefore makes things WORSE not BETTER, is petty, and selfish, childish and stupid. What does it do? What possible use is it to anyone? It's just saying "well I think that thing is bad and I want to whinge about it and I don't care what the consequences are because it's my right to flap my gums".

Everyone in SD is flapping their gums - no exceptions!

It's all about whether you flap to the right, left or centre. Flap away I say! What's the point of a debate forum otherwise!!!

[jaxie]

Is better Christian integration needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of the Royal family needed to reduce crime?

Is better integration of Trump supporters needed for anything at all?

This is not about "defending Muslims" it's about seeking a solution to a problem. Do I have any particular desire to defend Islam? No, I think it's as bonkers as any other organised religion, and I'd rather live in a world where all people would give all of them up and exist without the fantasies.

But we don't live in that world, there are problems, there are subcultures, there are violent gangs that develop in those subcultures, and doggedly demanding the right to "SAY ANGRY STUFF ABOUT THAT!" despite the fact that it increases and feeds into segregation and therefore makes things WORSE not BETTER, is petty, and selfish, childish and stupid. What does it do? What possible use is it to anyone? It's just saying "well I think that thing is bad and I want to whinge about it and I don't care what the consequences are because it's my right to flap my gums".

Are Christians and the royal family telling women what to wear and who to marry lately or not allowing them to be part of the same meeting as men. Perhaps her maj is into harming women over so called honour? We can't be reading the same news sources TS, yours must be entertaining.

[Toy Soldier]

Are Christians and the royal family telling women what to wear and who to marry lately or not allowing them to be part of the same meeting as men. Perhaps her maj is into harming women over so called honour? We can't be reading the same news sources TS, yours must be entertaining.

You literally have zero comprehension of my point Jaxie. Genuinely, nothing you have said has any bearing on my point, other than straight up confirming it. It's frustrating, and boring.

[bots]

this issue is of people not being chased down and convicted for fear of outraging groups seen as currently discriminated against (rightly or wrongly).

Any criminal group should not be allowed to hide behind such protection. It's really that simple. Everything else is pandering to their excuses.

[Beso]

And therein lies the problem with making sweeping statements about religion when discussing other issues. You get backlash, and the real issue gets lost.

But hey... you gotta fight for the right to... say stuff about Muslims etc. at any given opportunity. I guess. I mean that's the important thing isn't it? What was this story about again? :think:

Its ok to refer to the persons being muslim when its a positive....like bake of crowning their first muslim winner..bloody banners are still being waved about that.